Salome Schillack - Huge Audience Engagement Using Facebook Ads

People want connection. They want a feeling. You know, when something comes up in your newsfeed that makes you comment or makes you hit like or makes you share it, it's because you felt something, it created an emotion, and it moved you into action. And that is quantifiable by an algorithm, which is a computer system. The algorithm interprets success as engagement.

Boom, boom, boom, boom, boom.

What's up, everybody? You're listening to the Hustle and Flowchart podcast with your boys, Mount Wolf and Joe Fear.

What's up, everyone? Welcome back to the Hustle and Flowchart podcast. Today we've got another really tactical episode for you. Today we're going to talk about Facebook advertising and our guest, Salome Shelak. She runs a business and podcast called Shine and succeed over@shineandcceed.com but like I said, this one is going to be very, very tactical. She has a different approach to Facebook ads than some of the approaches we've talked about in the past. She's really all about building audiences, building engagement, building fans, creating brand awareness using Facebook ads, and less about going straight for a call to action with all of your Facebook ads. So it's a bit different of an approach, and I really, really think you're going to dig it. Also, if you're a podcaster, this has got some gold in it because one of the nuts that we've been trying to crack in our own business is attempting to grow our podcast through Facebook ads. And so far, it hasn't been ultra successful. Our attempts have. They've had mixed results. We haven't really cracked that nut and figured out how to really grow a podcast from Facebook ads. But Salome, on this episode, she's got a strategy that she's worked with other businesses on. In fact, our good friend Adam Schabel, he said that he had one of his biggest podcast days ever, using one of the strategies that you're gonna hear in this episode. So we're gonna talk about Facebook ads, building engagement, building fans, quiz ads, how to create these very specific type of ad through quizzes. Lots and lots of cool stuff. A really, really deep dive into a different approach to Facebook ads that I think you're gonna really dig. Now, we are taking notes on this one. We always take notes on them. You can grab the notes, as always, by joining us in our Facebook group. If you go to FL.

And request to join our Facebook group, one of the questions when you request to join the group is your email address. Now, the email address isn't required in order to join the group. But if you do give us your email address when you join the group, we'll send you the notes for whatever our latest episode is. So within two weeks of this episode going out, you can get the notes for free. All you gotta do is join the Group. Over@flowchartgroup.com, make sure you enter your email address when joining the group and. And we will hook you up with the notes. You're going to want the notes for this one, so check those out, join the group and we'll hook you up. And again, we're talking to Salome Shellack and her website is shineandsucceed.com so let's go ahead and dive in.

All right. I think we are live with this new app thing that we're using.

How are you guys? I think we're all here. So. Sulomi.

Sulomi.

Yes. Nice to meet you. It's great to have you here. And we've been chatting for a while. It was Adam Scheibel that sent you our way and he just had Mr.

Butter voice.

Yeah, I was going to say our notes say Mr. Butter Voice, not Adam.

Mr. Butter Voice. That's what you call him.

If we work on it, everyone can start calling him that.

He really does. We need to. I don't think we've had him on the show yet, but we'll have to.

Yeah, that is refer to him when we have him.

Yes, yes. Start a thing and he'll always remember it was me who started it.

There you go.

I love it. We could do that. But yeah, we got connected. And he was raving about the strategies with paid traffic and engagement, of course, which is probably the biggest key is you want engaging people after you send some paid traffic. Invest. But then he has a podcast and you've really helped him grow that through your strategies. And I think that's what really we're like, aha, Ding. That's a great idea. We would love that. And I know a lot of listeners as well, but, yeah, I guess. Walk us. You have an interesting background. So you're from South Africa. Like you were saying, you run a. A company in Australia and. And it's. Women run across the board, I believe. Right. And everyone's an immigrant.

Yes. We check all the boxes. We tickle all the boxes. Diversity. We can do better on diversity, I'll tell you that. We're working on. But yeah. So I'm Salome Shellack. I live in beautiful Brisbane in Australia with my husband and my two wonderful daughters. But I am originally from South Africa. Grew up lived there until I was about 23. Then I moved to the UK, lived there for a while, and then came back to South Africa. And then my boyfriend at the time said he wants to look for a job overseas. Within a month, had a job in Australia. And within three months we were down here and married. Setting up a whole new life in Australia. And the funny thing is, and then when I started my business, I started working with Americans. So now I work with Americans all day long. I have a team across Australia, the Philippines, and the US And Canada, all women running Facebook ads for online course creators and. And the host of membership sites. So that's. That's our jam. That's what we do all day.

Yeah. So how did you get into it? How did you decide that this, the Facebook and the audience building and all this stuff was what you wanted to do? What were you doing before this? And, you know, how did you get into this?

Oh, that's a great question. I. I had my first child. I was a. I was. So I have a background in musical theater. And then when that didn't work out anymore, marketing. And then when we moved to Australia, I was looking for a marketing job, but I was living. I was living in Perth, which is on the west side of Australia, the most isolated city in the world. There's literally desert and ocean between that and anything else. And I thought, well, I'll just get him another marketing job. Not realizing that all the marketing companies are all based in Sydney and I'm not going to get a marketing job in Perth. So I ended up. I had pharmaceutical marketing experience, so I ended up working as a pharmaceutical rep, which is a great job, and I loved it. And it kind of checked all the entrepreneur boxes for me that I had inside that I hadn't yet recognized as entrepreneur boxes. The I need freedom to do my own thing. The don't look over my shoulder and tell me what to do. The kind of rebellious. The just give me my little business and I'll make it work kind of those boxes. And that worked great until I had a child. And part of being a pharmaceutical rep, especially in Australia, is you got to get on airplanes and go places. And I will never, ever forget the day I dropped my little. She was about 10 months old, maybe. Maybe a little bit older at that stage. I dropped her off at daycare and it was Mother's Day. It was the day before Mother's Day, and all the other mummies came for morning tea. But I had to get on an airplane to go and talk to Doctors in a rural town. And the reason I had to get on that plane that day was because some dude in an office in Sydney had a spreadsheet that said by based on the number of sales that my territory brings in, I have to spend certain number of days in these certain areas. And they had to be those days. And I just had this moment where I went, no dude with a spreadsheet will ever tell me again where I have to be when I have to be there. That was a defining moment for me. That was the moment I got in my car and I bawled my eyes out. And it was an absolute defining moment for me in terms of going.

Working full time for a boss is not going to work for me. It's not. It's not going to. I am not going to be happy doing this with children. But I kind of felt like it's. Door number one is work full time. Door number two is stay at home full time. And that didn't work very well for me either, because a lot of women have said they feel very relieved when they hear me say, I would rather stick a fork in my eye than watch my children jump on the trampoline. Like, I am just not. Yeah, you've. You've been there.

Yeah. Yeah. Now that I hear my wife say that too.

Women don't talk about that because. Because, you know, you're supposed to enjoy watching them do mundane stuff, and you're supposed to enjoy feeding, cleaning, pooping, cleaning, feeding. You know, you're supposed to enjoy that. And I just. I'm not that mother. I need creative outlet. I need. I need to conquer something. That's what. Like, I have a drive, achieve something. And. And just the feeding and the. All the mundane stuff just didn't really do it for me. I'm enjoying my kids a lot more now that they're older and I can have conversations with them.

So that. So then I started. I thought coaching is the way to go because I kind of looked at my skills and I was like, oh, geez, I can't sell anything. I don't know what am I going to start a business on? So, of course the logical answer is life coaching. I'm going to go and do life coaching. So I enrolled in a life coaching course that ended up costing $30,000.

And tried to be a life coach. And then I heard the riches is in the niches. So I decided, well, I have a background in sales, so I niche niched down as a sales coach. And. And I couldn't sell my services. I was the sales coach who couldn't sell my own services. I'm sure people will associate with that.

Kind of a good. Yeah, I'm like, that's a good metaphor. Yeah. Association that a lot of people probably have experienced either themselves directly or they hired someone like that.

Yeah, exactly. Exactly. So it was hard for me, and I. You know, it's the first two, three years of being an entrepreneur. There's so much unlearning that has to happen and so much internal work that has to happen. And so failing for a few years did me really well. You know, it did me as a human. It turned me into a better human. But at the end of about two years of that, I was $40,000 in debt, and. And I. My husband was gray really fast, and I. He. We talked about it, and I decided to go back to my day job. And that was. At that point, I had already launched an online course because I realized that sales coaching wasn't for me. I realized coaching wasn't for me. I looked around me and realized it's an online business that I want. So I had narrowed it down to, like, it's an online business. And so what I did when. But I don't know if you guys. Do you guys remember Periscope?

Oh, yeah. Yeah.

So I. So when Periscope was still around, I used to go live every day and just talk about what I was learning about online marketing and built up a little bit of an audience. And then Facebook Live launched. And the day Facebook Live launched, I was live. And because I'd been live fit, I was, like, going live regularly. And everyone is saying, how are you doing this? And so I created my first online course called the Facebook Live Superstar. But that. And I actually. I taught myself how to run. How to run Facebook ads, and I ran $400 worth of Facebook ads, and I made $2,000, and I packed it all up. I was like. Well, I was like. I was like, this is not worth the work. I've worked hard for three years. I have filed hard for three years. $2,000. I can't feed my family on $2,000. And I wish somebody had sat me down at that moment and did the math for me and said, you put in 400, you get 2,000 out. That is a spectacular success, and you should just do it again. But I was exhausted and felt isolated, and I was just at the end of my rope, and we were $40,000 in date, so I was like, I'm done. So I went back to my day job and this time I worked for a different company again as a pharmaceutical rep. And I hated every minute of it, like just couldn't do it. But the amazing thing is I got to spend six hours in my car every day listening to online marketing training every single day. And I had my little phone up on the dash, mounted on the dash and I went through every training on the planet. I made a deal with my husband, actually, I said to him, I will go back to my job if I can take a thousand dollars of my salary and use that for education. And he said, okay, you can do that. So I had a thousand dollars a month budget for education and six hours a day. So that job that I hated ended up being the best gift ever.

And that is the coolest. Yeah, that's the coolest way to leverage a job. Especially even if for someone listening, that might be listening to this, maybe not driving to work, but to their bedroom for work or something. But yeah, you're leveraging that time and you're motivating yourself and I guess you have that budget, you actually have this allocated amount of money that you can apply to that thing. Super smart.

For me at the time I felt if I'm going to go back to my job so that we can pay off this debt, I need to be able to work towards getting out of it again. And I need to be able to, to not feel trapped. And I knew that taking a part of the salary that I got from my job and allocating it to this thing that I didn't even know what this thing was, I just knew there was freedom on the other end of this online thing. I don't know what it was. I didn't know what it was going to be. There was freedom at the end of this thing and it required time and it required money and it required my energy and I can do put in all three of those things while I'm checking boxes for someone else and while I'm doing my job. And I will tell you, I sucked at my job, that here I was the most unengaged. I poor, my poor boss, I sucked at it. But I showed up and I checked the boxes and it was about 10 months into it, I got on an airplane from Perth to San Diego. It's a 30 hour round trip. Yeah, 30 hours. And I went to an online marketing conference that was amazing. And for the first time I sat in a room with people there who were just like me and who had the same dreams as me and the same struggles as me and I had while I was at my job. I started freelancing as a Facebook ads manager because Facebook ads kind of came naturally to me and I didn't realize a lot of other people struggle with it. So I just started first taking on clients for free and then for like 500 bucks a month and then 750amonth. And it grew a little bit organically. And at the end of that conference, I walked away with four new clients and I came home and I quit my job and I started working as a freelancer. Yeah, Full time freelancer. And hustled my ass off that year and turned it into an agency.

I bet that 15 hour flight back home was feeling pretty good. You just close four clients, you're like, I'm quitting this thing. I'm out.

New beginning. It's. It's the best feeling. It's the best feeling. There's defining moments in that journey and that was a defining moment for me. Yeah.

And the rest is history. The rest is now. You know, now I have a 4, 5 people, 5 women team of people who serve online course creators. And, and we only do online course creators. No e commerce, no anything else, just online course creators. That's all we do. And we build engaged audiences for them and scale their businesses.

Well. And I know a lot of the strategies. You know, like I mentioned, Adam, you know, being a podcaster, I know he's applied your strategies in kind of a different way, but yeah, that you guys as an agency, course creators and I think maybe talk about what, what you found, because we were talking before hitting record how there's a lot of folks that run ads or can run ads and teach ads or even agencies, but they're not really thinking about engagement. Like the piece that happens maybe during the ad, but after the ad. So maybe walk us through some of your thoughts on that.

Yeah. So. Well, you got to think back about January 2018, when Mark Zuckerberg announced the big change to the algorithm. Right. If you think about.

What he said, he said Facebook will from now on favor the content of friends and family over that of marketers. Because when people come to the platform, what they want is friends and family. What they want is connection. When you come to a social media platform and you're bombarded with marketing messages, what do you do? You leave. You go somewhere else. And, you know, gone are the days, Mark realized, gone are the days where it's just Facebook and Instagram. You know, as soon as Snapchat arrived on the, on the scene, they were like, oh, we got a problem. So they realized that people want, people want connection. They want a feeling. You know, when you, when you, when something comes up in your newsfeed that makes you comment or makes you hit like, or makes you share it, it's because you felt something, it's because it touched you, because it created an emotion and it moved you into action. And that is quantifiable by the, or measurable by an algorithm, which is a computer system through engagement. That is what, like the, the for the. The algorithm interprets success as engagement, you know. So what Mark really was saying is we want engaging content on the platform because that keeps people there, it brings people back, it keeps them connected and it keeps the relationships going. And we kind of stumbled upon this thing where we had a client who built a beautiful audience on Instagram. And then when the algorithm changed, she said, I've worked so hard to build this audience on Instagram and they have just completely died on me. I don't know where they are. They're not responding. And she creates amazing, like incredible, engage, engaging, engaging content. So we said, well, we're just going to start running some engagement ads. We just want to see what happens if we run some ads that are optimized for engagement. Because she creates such, such good content. We're just going to take some of her great posts, run it as an engagement ad. So that's an ad where you tell Facebook, go get me engagement specific. And we targeted it to her warm audiences. So her audiences that have already liked her page, that have already following her on Instagram, that have been to her website or that's on her email list. So people that have self nominated to be in her world, we started running some of her content to them. And it was like her Instagram account woke up. It's like, you know when the sunflowers, when the sun comes up and it kind of lifts up its face and it's like, like that's what happened to her Instagram account. But that's not all that happened. She. Yeah, she also said her Shopify account, because she sells journals, she was saying her Shopify account is, has increased sales. She said her podcast has increased downloads and she said her website has increased hits. Now if you think about engagement, like if something comes onto your newsfeed and you like it, you go, you like it so much that you engage with it. The next thing you do is you're gonna go, oh, who is this person? And you click on their profile and then you're gonna read through at least 20 of their latest posts, right and then something will catch your eye, and then you're gonna go to the link in their bio and click to go to their website, and then you're gonna subscribe to their podcast. So engagement begets engagement. Right? And. And for her, what we saw. And this is back in. This is two years ago, what we saw was it just all of a sudden kicked off this awakening of our entire digital ecosystem. And so we just, stock standards, started running engagement ads for all of our clients. Like, as soon as they come on board and work with us, we take their best social media posts, and we put like, literally $5 a day on their best social media posts and run it as engagement ads. Now, what we learned in the meantime is we run it to warm audiences, but then we also use it to cold audiences to kind of, you know, lead with an engaging piece of material. Lead with, hello, this is what I stand for, this is who I am, and this is how you can connect with me. And it's. There's no call to action. There's no, like, do this thing or download this thing or get this thing. It's all just, this is who I am. This is what I stand for. And, and. And we found you can kind of interchange video, videos or images, depending on what you want to do. Sometimes images work really well on Instagram. Sometimes videos work better. And we kind of combine it a little bit with video views ads as well. But it's having this top of funnel, this first point of contact with people where you're just saying hi in a way that moves them. Yeah. So that's what we learned. And then there's another part of this where we saw that people who are just starting out, who has no audience, is completely stuck building an audience because Facebook doesn't show their stuff to their followers because they don't have engagement, but they don't have engagement because Facebook doesn't show their stuff. So it's this wicked catch 22. And so now I teach new online marketers, new online course creators, people who are trying to build their audience from scratch. I teach them the Strategy to use $5 a day on engagement ads and just to just wake up their accounts. And I'll tell you, I've had conversations with Facebook where they have literally looked at the accounts we managed and gone. This is fantastic because we're running engagement ads, we're running video views ads, we're running traffic ads, and we're running conversion ads. So, you know, traditionally, you go back to 2017, what, everyone was just running conversion ads because we just want to get people on our list and we want them to get them to buy our stuff.

Right.

But it does. It doesn't work that way anymore.

Yeah.

This is actually a conversation Matt and I have been having just with posting normal posts, you know, on social. And the more we post just content and things, that we think people that follow us, or at least the people that we want to follow us, will come, you know, they will. They will come to that post and engage. But the more we do that, what do you know, more of those people come and engage, you know, and like, just like you said, organically, you could probably take that same approach or something similar.

Yeah, exactly.

I'm curious, what kind of content would you. Would you put in these posts? Because the common wisdom would be you want some sort of call to action. Are you just not even putting a call to action in the first one? Just, hey, here's something that you'll find valuable, but. But if you find this valuable, you'll end up deeper down my rabbit hole.

Absolutely. That's the idea. So, of course, we create custom audiences. First off, we create audiences that captures anyone who does engage with this. So whether they click to read more, whether they watch 3 seconds or 15 seconds of a video, whether they just. Whatever they do. So the first most important thing is to create those custom audiences. And you want to make sure you have people who engaged with you on Facebook in X number of days. So if you're just starting out, I would say start with 180 days. But if you're getting some traction, the smaller that you make that window of engagement time, the more, like, recently they engaged with you, so then you'll be more memorable. So of course, we want to start by creating those audiences so that we capture them so that if they engage, at least we know we can do something with them, you know, so we'll be retargeting them later. So you create these custom audiences and then the content, the way that I teach people when they're starting out with this, the first clue to what is good engagement content is look at what has done well on your social feeds. Look at what has. What people have already connected with, what has already gotten people to comment, what's gotten people to share, or what is already triggering an emotion for people. So look at that and then taste it. Run it to your, you know, $5 a day. We're playing, you know, we're having fun. This is not wasting money. This is not like putting your life savings in it. You can approach it with a Very playful attitude and, like, taste and see what works. And so you. The first clue is if you have social media content that have worked well, try that. But the, in terms of content, what I tell people to create is, is.

You want to make sure a. That it builds, that it causes someone to feel something. So it can either be something that's a little controversial. You know, you, maybe you can say, like, I have a video where I say social media is dead.

Right.

Or, or I could, I could create the same video and say, social media is not dead. You're just doing it wrong. For somebody who is, is, you know, who's in my ideal audience, immediately they're like, what? Well, hang on, what? Say that again. And then I can, and then I can talk about, you know, this a little bit of you just need engagement, and that's why your social media is dead. And, and, and so in that piece of content, you need to pull them in, you need to make them feel something. And then you. What I always say is you have to, like, show them that you're their person. Show them that either you get their pain or you understand their desires. And you can build authority just through that. But it's kind of like you've got to think of it as Adam calls it, the how you doing strategy. It's like Joey from the show Friends walking in and saying, how you doing? You know.

How you doing? It's the piece of content that connects with them. So you don't need to be overly pushy. You don't need to have any call to action. All you want them to do is to go, yes, you're my person. You feel me? You understand me? I want to like this, I want to comment on this. And that's all you need. And now they're in a custom audience. Now you're going to retarget them with your list building ad or your podcast ad or something.

Yeah.

So is the measure of success on these ads when you're looking in the dashboard on Facebook is, are you just looking at comments, likes, engagement? That's pretty much the metric you're, you're testing to see if that $5 is $5 well spent, you know, because obviously you're probably testing different things. You're looking on your Facebook page and going, okay, that worked. Let's run this as an ad. And you might test a few different things. So to pick the winner, the metrics you're looking at are how, which ones are getting the likes and comments and that sort of thing.

Yeah, exactly. Now I want to say there's a couple of different reasons why we keep these ads running. The one is when you look at your, when you look at your ad and you're getting shares that like, then you're in the pound seat, like, that's the best you're getting comments. Perfect, ideal. You love it. You're getting likes. Okay, that's good. But you might look at your ad account and see that you're getting no comments, no likes, no shares. But you're still just paying a cent for an engagement. And that ad can be worth keeping purely for what it is feeding into your ad account quality. Because our ad accounts, Facebook, will never admit to this, but I am telling you this because I see it and I have spoken to some other people who run agencies and they say the same thing. But Facebook ranks our accounts and we've.

Heard that from some others on the show here too.

Okay. They will never admit it, but they do. And, oh, actually, I should say some of the, some, some of the people, some people who work there has admitted it to me, but there's like, hush, hush, you know. Yeah, don't let the Facebook secrets out. Your, Your account is ranked and given a quality score based on things like engagement. So even if you have an ad that is not getting comments or shares or likes, but it's getting you about a cent, you're paying about a cent per engagement. But that engagement isn't visible. I tell my students to just keep it because. Just keep it, forget about it, let it run. It's probably running to a cold audience at this stage because it's building your account mojo. And that mojo in the long run brings down your conversion costs. So this client that I told you.

About, so you're investing on the front end.

Yes, you're. You're buying favor with Facebook. That's what you're buying, literally. But you're also, you know, you're also leading into your custom audiences because people are engaging with it. So you could potentially end up having an ad that's just running low and slow in the background that's just building your account mojo. That's not necessarily getting any visible engagement, but it's getting engagement. So it's building up the mojo, which is good. And then you may want to play with other pieces of content where you are actively seeking comments, where you are actively seeking actual engagement with people. And I'd probably run those more to my warm audiences because people who are already in your work like you want to, you want to build relationship with them, you want to Create deeper connections with them. So you want to put something useful in front of them, you want to put something funny in front of them, you want to put your best piece of content in front of them and you want them to engage. So those are the two goals, two different goals that we have with this. And, and we saw this client that I told you about that we kind of stumbled upon this when she started working with me. She sells a low dollar ticket dollar, low dollar offer $240 online course. And she said to me, I have to get leads under $2, otherwise it doesn't make sense to do this. And we worked and we got them under $2 and then we started this engagement strategy and a year later she was paying 30 cents. Between 30 cents and 80 cents continuously under a dollar for a lead. She's the only person whose ad cost.

Everyone else's went up. So we were like, we are onto something here. So that account quality and that mojo that you build up, it rewards you in the long term by bringing down your conversion costs.

This is so cool.

Yeah, I keep thinking of like just organic posts just because it's things that Matt and I have been talking or testing more so and kind of getting back into. Because honestly, like for a while Matt and I were just like, ah, social media media. We're just kind of, we're done with you and you know, we kind of.

Which is dumb because 2020 was kind of a rough year on social media in my eyes.

Yeah. It's interesting because like, like you said, you're kind of, you feed the system with good content, the right people show up and, and they're going to, you know, like comment and all that stuff. But it's interesting because like, when you're posting something on Facebook organically, you're not going to put a call to action on there. Typically every single time, like someone would with an ad. So it's like, why are our brains trying to just jump to like, got to get them to do something, got to do something, just be cool. And then like later on when they trust you, that's when you show up with something that's relevant.

Yeah. And as long as you've got those custom audiences built it for me, it kind of takes away that feeling of that FOMO of oh, I got to get them to do something. Because I know, you know, I'm just, I'm going to give you some, I'm going to, I'm going to create a piece of content. I'm going to create a social media post. That you're going to love, and you're just gonna love it. But I'm catch every. I'm getting. I'm putting you in a custom audience, and, you know, you're gonna be retargeted later, you know, and. And when they.

When they.

When they like it and they enjoy it, you. Of course they're gonna want your lead magnet. Of course they're gonna want to show up for your webinar. Of course they're gonna sign up for your challenge or your, you know, thing, or. Or they're gonna go listen to your podcast, but the algorithm's not gonna put your stuff in front of them.

Yeah, we had a guy named Kurt Molly on the show a couple times.

Yeah, I love it.

And he talks about that middle funnel, that warm audience is almost like. See it almost as, like another mailing list. Right. You're building this audience of people once they engage with these cold audiences, and now they know who you are. You have an audience that you can put offers in front of just like you would a mailing list. So if you're going to go promote a product, you mail your list, but you also put it right in front of that warm audience that you've been cultivating of people who have interacted with your cold ads.

Yes.

So I love that concept.

Yeah. So Kurt's strategy is kind of a tactic that uses the exact same principles of what I'm talking about. It's the, you know, lead with value, build the relationship, and, you know, give them something that is of value to them and then bring them in and then convert them.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Well, I want to try to translate this over to podcasting a little bit. So I was talking to Adam, this is probably about a week ago, and he made a comment to me about how he ran a Facebook ad that got him his biggest podcast download day that he's ever had. And so I said, hey, that ad that you mentioned, you mind breaking it down for me? He's like, I don't need to. You're talking to Salome in a couple days. She'll break it down for you. All right, then, so can we. Can we go there? And I don't know if you're familiar with the ad that Adam ran or not, but I wanted to hear kind of the philosophy or idea behind it.

Sure. So, yeah, I told Adam to do one of two things, and I'm not sure which one he did, so I'll just share both of them with you.

So the strategy that I'm using to build My podcast that is also resulting in better downloads for me. I can like the three episodes that I'm running ads to are the best episodes and they continue to be the best episodes. And you know, they're just. It's beautiful because it's magically bringing me listeners. I love it. So what we do is we have, we create. You know how you create your show notes page. It's a page that's on your website. So you have to have a page on your website with your pixel on. And what I do is you have, right at the top, you'll have the name of the podcast, of course, and maybe a benefit of why, why people should listen. Because remember, you got to pull them in immediately. You got to give them a reason to listen straight off the bat. And then we have the little link to the audio where they can listen. So they can listen right there after clicking. Because imagine you're standing in the, you're standing in line in the bank or you're sitting on the couch scrolling through. We gotta make it easy for them. We don't want them to go and subscribe and do this and do that and do the other thing. Click listen easy. So you've got the listening little listening button. You guys will know what the technical term is for that little thingamajiggy with the listening button player.

There's the.

Technical.

We don't have a technical third party.

Yeah, that's about, it's above my, my pay grade. And then right below that you have a subscribe button, right? So those, those who, even if they just listen, maybe they listen just for a few seconds and then they're gonna click subscribe and you're gonna it and they're going to be taken to your, your, your Apple or your, wherever you host your podcast. And then below that we have a list of like you would have show notes again. You know, here's the amazing thing that you'll learn at this timestamp. Here's the other amazing thing you learn at this timestamp. And here's the other amazing things you learn at this timestamp. So we have that there and then another subscribe here. And then you might have the transcription if you want or you know something else. And then you might also on that page have a opportunity for them to join your email lists. You give them some kind of a free lead magnet that is related to the podcast episode because they clicked because they're interested in the podcast content. So make it related. It's not just your stock standard thing. It's something that's related to that. So that's kind of how we build the page and then we run traffic landing page view ads to this. So then you would create an ad and you would. In the copy of the ad, you explain the benefits of listening to the podcast episode. And it's a click here to listen now. And they click and they go to this landing page where they can immediately listen, where they can subscribe, and where they get captured into a custom audience of people who have been there. And so you can, you know, you can create retargeting ads for people who went to that page but didn't opt in for your free thing. And you retarget them with your free thing. So they're in your ecosystem as soon as they've clicked there. And miraculously, what we've seen is it grows the listenership on those episodes. And don't ask me how, because we can't track, we can't directly. Facebook doesn't directly tell us how many people have subscribed to the podcast as a result of this. This the only stat we have in Facebook is how many people clicked to go to the landing page. But as long as you're paying kind of around a dollar, a dollar fifty, you know, I'd say like your ad is hitting. Your ad is. Is on target. If you're paying somewhere between a dollar and a dollar fifty to get someone onto your landing page, which sounds expensive, but if you just, you put. Literally we, we run them low dollar budgets. I think I'm running some for like $3. And I just switch it on and set it and forget it. And then when I go in and I look, I'm like, holy cow. These podcast episodes are the top performing podcast episodes. And people are clicking on my ads, so they must be then listening. You know, it's just. It's working. It's working.

Yeah. So you said those are ads in Facebook that are traffic landing page type ads, then? Yes.

So you optimize the traffic and then at ad set level, where you choose the type of traffic, you get to choose between clicks or landing page views. You choose landing page views because you want people to not just click, you want them to go to the page. You actually want them to listen or read about it. And then make sure that you set up that custom audience of people who did click to that landing page because that's going to be another useful audience for you to retarget with your lead magnet or with a second episode of your podcast or with a video or with A something. Because now they're, you know, if you're being strategic about how you build, I talk about the golden thread. Like it's, it's a. If you take them on a purposeful journey where your messaging starts with value, some kind of, you know, maybe you have an engagement ad that touches on the topic of your podcast. Everyone who engages with that then gets sent the podcast episode ad and then they get sent a lead magnet. By the time they move down your funnel, by the time they're on your email list or get to your evergreen low dollar offer, like they're ready to buy.

Wow, this is. Yeah, this is super cool. Is there a way, like, do you have a process of selecting which podcast you promote, which podcast episode, or is it just kind of at radio?

I just choose the best ones. I choose the ones that like that my audience have already indicated to me is valuable to them. I also kind of like a social post then. Yeah, but I also, I would also be strategic about, you know, what, what phase of your launch are you in? So we, when we launch online courses, you know, there's, there's the pre launch Runway phase where you're kind of three months out from launching your course and your messaging starts, you know, fine tuning. So I would, so, you know, when I'm launching a course about list building or audience building, my podcast episode starts aligning with audience, audience building and list building. My, the lead magnet I'm running is related to audience building or list building. But when I'm launching a course about launching, then the content switches a little bit, the conversation switches a little bit. So it may depend on which, which of your funnels you are purposefully trying to build at that time. You're purposefully trying to warm people up and bring them in at the top so that once you say, well, well, my masterclass is now open, you know, go grab your seat. You have a nice big warm audience of people who have listened to the podcast episodes, maybe multiple podcast episodes related to that piece of, you know, that problem that you solve, and they've watched your engagement videos and they've engaged with you on Facebook and they've joined you live and they, you know, it's just, you want to, you want to build that conversation. So be purposefully with something you're going to sell in mind because we can build audiences all day, but if we don't, you know, you got to start with the end in mind. And the end is you're going to pay me for my knowledge.

Yeah, no, it's perfect. That's that's great. And I'm happy you said that because, yeah, it's, it's easy to then figure out. Okay, well, you know, like we have an affiliate marketing tool, Stack Episode, that was very popular, but we also have a, you know, lead opt in that's, that's custom to that, you know, that basically gives it away for free and then that triggers all sorts of fun stuff afterwards, so.

All sorts of fun stuff. So you reverse engineer that, reverse engineer that and create something. Get some, you know, then create. Run the podcast episode and then create some engagement content for that. And you've built a funnel.

Yeah, I mean, just, just kind of putting all this together. Like you could kind of combine the strategies you're talking about here too, where you maybe pull like a, you know, a five minute clip from a podcast episode. That's really a good takeaway from that episode. Run that to a cold audience, make it a pure engagement ad. Then when people trickle down from that engagement ad, that's where you're doing these landing page optimizations over to your show notes. So if somebody just watched, you know, a clip from this episode right here that we're doing right now, and it's a five minute clip that they really like. Well, anybody who watched past, let's say 25%, now we're linking them over to where they can go and click and listen to the full episode on our show notes page. Yeah.

And you can even grab a quote. Yeah. You know, you grab a quote from this, you stick it on an image, you run that as an engagement post and then you run the video, the video as a video views ad. Now you're getting both those optimizations. You're getting engagement and you're getting video views. You have a video views custom audience. So anyone who watches the video is getting captured. You have an engagement audience. Anyone who engages is getting captured. Then you retarget them with the podcast.

And you have purposefully put that podcast in front of people who've already self selected that this is something they've already raised their hand and said, I'm interested in this. I like this, I want more of this.

Yeah, absolutely. I love it. And Facebook just recently lifted the restrictions on text and images too. So you can actually run ads to quotes now because. Because Facebook isn't saying only 20% can be text anymore. That's a, that's an old rule now.

Yeah, yeah. Finally they lifted it. It's funny because they've lifted it before and then they brought it back. So we'll see what they do.

Well, it's perfect for all of us making a bunch of audiograms with our podcasts, you know, either animated videos or just a freaking image. That's just a quote from the episode. I mean, we have tons of that. Okay. Wow. Yeah.

So I have one last little thing that I think would be kind of cool to touch on. I have a note here on. On growing your list through ads. Can you speak into what a quiz ad is for a second?

Yes. So, quizzes. I don't know if you guys have noted but noticed, but quizzes are all the rage at the moment. Everyone's doing a you know, what's your bleep personality type? Or you know, what's your. You know, those sorts of quiz quizzes. So as lead magnets, they've. I think it's. I think it's kind of the. The Ryan Levesque ask method quiz that like, he kind of kicked off this trend to create quizzes and to segment your audience using quizzes, which is really super smart. And I created a piece of content about quizzes because I noticed that people either succeed. Well, there's. It kind of this whole quiz thing took like, it just took off massively in the online worlds where I. I move. And the reason it did is because some people are just cleaning up with quizzes. It is just doing so well for them. And then other people are like, it's just tanking completely. So it kind of is this thing where you're either going to massively succeed or massively tank. So I've created a piece of content to teach people the ad side of that and why sometimes it tanks and sometimes it works. And what it comes down to is there's a few things, but the first thing is quiz. You have to have a niche where people are already wondering about the thing that you're quizzing them on. It has to be a question they're already grappling with. So, for example, a business coach who creates a quiz, what's your best business model? Tanks. Because nobody goes to bed thinking, what is my best business model? You know?

Yeah. I want to think of a few examples of ones where I've seen it tank.

Anything where you are just driving people. I've seen what's your best Facebook ads? What's your Facebook ads personality? Not something people go to bed with worrying about.

Never even heard of that. Yeah. Why was I here?

Yeah.

Yes. Or. Or what's your. What's your online marketing 80s Persona? Not a problem I go to sleep with. You know?

Yeah. Marketing Superpower.

Marketing Superpower. I've literally seen that one. Which marketing superhero are you? And it's cute. And it, maybe it works on social media, but, you know, because your people, your, your tribes, maybe they're going to take it. But if you run ads to it, like, nobody's going to click. So where it does work well is where you have a very specific niche and it is a question people are already grappling with. So what I've seen work really well is I worked with someone who is. She teaches people how to uncover their intuition or connect with their intuition. And her quiz is, what is your intuitive type? And she runs it to an audience. Who are they are already grappling with this question of what, what, what, what is my intuitive type? Is this intuition thing real? Can I trust it? Is this something that works for, you know, they're. They're already grappling with what is this thing that I'm feeling inside that I think is something. And then she says, what is your intuitive type? And that works really well. And I'm trying to think of some other examples. I'll. I'll think of some other examples where, where it works really well. But it usually. I've seen.

A money mindset coach run one where she says.

What is your financial. How did she call it? What is your. It's almost like a personality type. But she emphasized that we have different ways that we interact with money. And the different type of. Of money personality you have will determine how you spend and how you save and what your money mindset challenges are. Because for some of us it's spending, for others of us it's saving for. You know, we all have different. So she had this what is your money mindset. I don't. It was a personality or something. But that worked really well because her audience is already into money mindset and they already know that like. But what I struggle with and what someone else struggles with is not the same or that it might be. Like, the way I deal with money is different from how my husband deals with money. And how do we take our two money personalities and blend it so that we stop fighting about money? Yeah, so that worked really well. But the challenge with, with with challenge ads is this when you're running them, because you're normally. When we're running lead magnet ads, right, we have a landing pa we send people to and we have a thank you page and we, the ad goes to the landing page, they opt in, they land on the thank you page. A conversion occurred. Super straightforward. Easy. There's one step. And then they convert with a quiz. You're running an ad to a landing page. People come to the landing page, and then they decide to take the quiz, and then they go to quiz page one, and then they go to quiz page two. Two, and then they go to quiz Page 4 and 5 and 6 and 7 and wherever. And then they get to the final page where it says, awesome. To get your results, opt in for this thing. And then they need to give you their email address. And then. And then they're a conversion. Then they are a conversion. So a mistake that a lot of people make is they set the ads up the way they would set up a lead magnet, where they set the conversion on the first page. And that is not, in fact, a conversion. A conversion is multiple pages deep. So you've got to set that conversion for when they've given you their email address. And now you've got to make sure that your marketing is good enough that people are clicking to the landing page and then going down this rabbit hole of the quiz. And then you give them enough incentive to give you their email address. And you also have to put enough budget on this ad. So I always say when you're running quiz ads, starts with $50 a day. Like, start. Like, that's, you know, for someone who's just starting out, $50 a day can be high for a lead magnet. But if you're marketing, if your marketing works and you can strategically bring them to that quiz and they love it, and you're, you know, you're paying saints to get them to the landing page and they're taking the quiz and you're good at. At enticing them to give you their email address and then opt in that conversion that is on the thank you page. That happens multiple pages deep. The once you get the first one, the algorithm learns and it goes and finds you more people like that, and it brings them in, and then you get the second one, and the algorithm learns and it will bring you more. And if you start with $50 a day, you should get enough conversions. You should get at least.

$50 a day. You should get at least 30 conversions in those first per day in those first three days. If you're getting 30 conversions in those first three days per day, then the algorithm will be able to optimize. And then if you have enough conversions, you should be able to bring that budget down a little bit. But, yeah, I teach this because quizzes are so popular and people run. They put a quiz up on Their social media and it works great. And then they want to run an ad to it and they then either it doesn't work because the marketing. It's just not an enticing question that they're asking or B, they set up the ad wrong and then they end up wasting money.

Makes sense. So what do you have any specific tools that you point people to to create these quizzes that you found to work better than others?

Ah, good question. The one that. Oh, you're asking me something that I am forgetting now. There is a tool that works. Works better for if you're running ads than the other one. It is try something I forget. I will email you that and then you can put it in the show notes.

We'll link it.

Yeah, well, I know, I know a handful of quiz builders. Is it Interact by chance? Interact Quiz Builder? Because I think their website might be Interact.

Try Interact. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

That's Josh Heyman's product. Yeah, he's been on the show.

Try Interact. Let me see if it is that one. Try Interact.

Yeah, that's a great tool. We actually use that for quizzes and I think we have some running right now with it.

Fantastic. Brilliant. Yes, it's Try Interact. Yes.

We're not using this. Try. Nice.

I got it because you said try. That's the one that popped to mind that I think had Try in the domain name. Very cool.

Along the lines of tools, any other tools that you like to leverage a lot for for ads or landing pages or any other thing. What does your tool stack look like?

Oh, great question. I love ActiveCampaign. ActiveCampaign is one of my favorite tools in the business. Love how I can just do all my email stuff on there. And it's smart and it gives us good data. So when we bring a client on board and they tell me they use ActiveCampaign, I'm very happy immediately. What else? What else tools we use Help Scout every single day. I love Help Scout in the business.

We use. This is a very basic one, but rev.com for captions for ads. There are more tools coming into the market now that does the same thing as Rev. And Facebook has gotten better with their native caption creation. Even for people with weird accents like me. In the beginning they were just like the stuff they said I said was just weird and funny. But that's getting better. What other tools? Let me think. That's a good question. I don't think about the tools that I use very often.

Yeah. What other categories are There that I can tell you what tools I love.

How about the page builders or, or you know, membership site or, you know, all the stuff that's going to happen, I guess after the marketing, the input.

Yeah, okay. I, for, for, I still use WordPress. I love WordPress for Len. For, for my website. We host our online courses on Kajabi, which I have a little bit of a love hate relationship with Kajabi. I love how they host our courses because the courses, it's easy to use.

But I am seeing I'm looking at something else that is coming up which I use for video content which is Searchy. I don't know if you guys have heard of Searchy. Yeah, so searchy. Yes. Stu McLaren. So I, I signed up for Searchy due to the fact that it integrates with Kajabi and my students can literally search for any keyword and then it brings up a list of all the videos. So the video training and the live Q and A where they can have a look and go, oh, here she talks about that. There she talks about that. There she talks about that. Which makes it super easy for me to just tell them. Very often when I'm finding repetitive questions, I go, just go search for that keyword. It's in the training, you'll find it there. So I don't have to repeat it because I like coaching my students and you know, some questions are better than others and some questions you can just go, hey, go watch the video. And others you can then coach people. So Searchy. But Searchie is now becoming a membership tool as well, where they're changing to like become full blown membership site hosts.

And the beauty of that is you can, you can segment your audience into the different, the different places where they're at in their journey. And based on where they're at, you can only show them certain pieces of content. So that gets rid of, of overwhelm because in memberships people like, they leave because they're overwhelmed, they don't know where to start. But with this new tool, I'm really intrigued and I'm looking into using that. You can, they can say, well, I'm, I, this is where I'm at in my journey. And then you just show them the content that's relevant to them and then when they've worked through that, you're like, okay, now you're ready to move on and here's the content that's relevant to you for that. So I love that. We also, we do still build a lot of landing pages on Kajabi as well, because it's so easy.

Curious, you mentioned activecampaign. Do you have any strategies tied into Facebook and all the engagement stuff you're doing there? Because I know they think it's the pro account, Matt, Is it an activecampaign? You're able to kind of see who's engaging with your emails and then tie that over to, you know, your website and even feed, you know, custom audiences to your Facebook ads too?

Yeah, good question.

I will say the very basic thing that we teach all of our clients and that we teach all of our students to do is just.

Simple feature that ActiveCampaign and every other CRM has is tagging, Tagging, tagging, tagging. So there's some fancy stuff that you can do in there. And I'll be honest with you, this is where I'm like, I'm the CEO and I pay someone to do the fancy stuff. So the utm, the UTM stuff, I have someone taking care of that and she's amazing at it. And I can't even speak to it because I know nothing of it. Right, but, but the what? When we work with clients, very often they come to us and they've managed to create this, you know, multiple six figure funnel with their online course and they're making 100, 200, 300,000 doll live launches. And then we say to them, great, do you know the people that bought your course? Do you know which lead magnet they opted in for? And the answer is 9 out of 10 times, I don't know. Or we would say, you know, so, so, or, or how many of the people who downloaded your lead magnet also opted in for your webinar? And the answer is, I don't know, no clue. And so we help them set, yeah, we help them set these things up. And it, and that is as simple as putting a tag on every lead magnet, putting a tag on every webinar, putting a tag, every opt in, everything people opt in for, just put a tag on there so that we can then like reverse engineer it and go, okay, so we want to figure out where these buyers are coming from so that we can strategically use ads to get more people who are eventually going to turn into, into buyers. Because we don't just want leads, we want leads who's actually going to buy our stuff, right? So basic tagging. And then we work our way back and we go, okay, so we have five different lead magnets. We look at the buyers, we look at the lead magnets and we go, there's two Lead magnets that look like they resulted in the most number of buyers. So let's never spend any money on the three that didn't result in buyers. So we just spend money for ads on the two. Or often if there's two, one might be related to a different course or a different offer that they have. And we'll say, well, here we can see the start of this funnel. People when they opt into this lead magnet, they are 50% more likely to then become a buyer. So let's allocate our Facebook ad dollars to this lead magnet and then we can see people who opted in for a specific lead magnet. Or we can look at the buyers and go, what percentage of the buyers were brand new and just signed up, joined your list for the first time in your webinar? And what percentage of them, of the people who joined the webinar were already on your list? And we can strategize around that and go, well, okay, what we can see is they have to be on your email list in order to sign up for your webinar in order to become a sale. And that tells us we can't ever green this program yet because people need that nurturing. They need the time. They need to be in your world. But if we look at it and we go, well, 70% of the people who ended up as buyers signed up for the webinar for the first time, then we go, whoa, this is something that can very easily be evergreened because if they're likely to join as a cold person and come into your world through for your webinar and then convert to a sale, that's a beautiful evergreen potential. You know, that's something we can very easily then evergreen. So we, we. That's our game. That's what we play. That's how we scale online course businesses. So no, no super fancy things. Just basic tagging. But great question.

Yeah, keep it. Oh, yeah, yeah. There's all these features and that was just one of them. That, because we work with some email guys that do the f. Fancy stuff for us as well.

I know I need to learn.

I need, I need to learn the fancy stuff. I know there's a lot of them that does fancy stuff with Facebook ads. And I'll be honest with you, oftentimes it's a distraction.

Sure.

2020, right?

Yeah. People get really excited about fancy stuff. And I just go, let's just get the basics right first. Let's just get the, you know, let's make sure your marketing, your, your market message match is There. Let's make sure we're tracking, people are converting. Let's make sure we're doing the basic stuff and then look at the fancy stuff. But I am curious about the fancy email stuff because. Because email rights are down, man. It's down. The email open, right? Yeah, it's terrible.

Well, yeah, and like you said, there's a lot of folks that we've even talked to on the podcast that are doing big, huge things and they're like, oh, when it comes to email, because we talk about segmenting and all the journeys that we build on the back of our content, they're just like, oh, my God, I don't do any of that. I just podcast almost like scream at everybody all at once with the megaphone.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

That's probably why it's happening.

Probably why.

Yeah. Well, this is. I mean, there's a lot here. Matt, is there anything else you want to touch on?

We covered a lot of ground, I think. I'm sure we can. We can probably cover another hour worth of amazing stuff, but we might have to save that for a few future round two or something for sure.

Well, tell us about. I know you have a program that's, I think by the time this went live, is live now and active, but tell folks how they can go find you and join some of your courses and trainings that you have out there.

Well, they can just go to shineandsucceed.com that is my website, shineandsucceed.com It's a lot easier to spell than Salome shellack. So shine and succeed. And then on the website there, there's some free resources for you there if you're interested in.

Audiences. And there's a link there if you're looking for an agency to run your ads for you as well in your podcast.

That's on there, I'm sure too.

The other big thing that's on there. Yes. So lots of free stuff.

Yeah. The podcast.

Podcast is called the Shine show and, and I talk about a lot about online marketing and Facebook ads there.

Well, I think this is. Yeah, this is amazing. And thank you for sharing the podcast growth strategies specifically for us because we're self.

And we're going to totally send that.

To our team and actually implement that. And we'll have you. We'll let you know some case studies after we get some results.

I would love to see it. You can, you can, you can go and look at the. Look at the ads I'm running for my podcast and just do that.

That's even a better idea. Well, thank you so very much. And we'll. We'll definitely tell you how it all goes and share this like crazy because.

Yeah, I can't wait.

I can't write to know.

Yeah, it's very exciting. Thank you so much. You guys are awesome.

Oh, boy, oh, boy. So we got a lot to marinate on.

Yeah. Yeah. Well, a little behind the scenes on this one before we. We get into the marination.

Joe and I are sort of back in mega lockdown again. So we're not in the same place recording. If you remember, back in the very, very, very beginning of lockdown, back at, like, what, April, we were recording in separate locations. And when we finally got a little leew getting back together and recording in person, but now we're in full lockdown mode again.

Yes. We've always been, I feel like, kind of like bubble boys. Well, I think everyone has kind of been thinking that way at least. But yeah, now it's like we're in San Diego and total bubble boy, at least at the time of this recording. Ideally when it goes out or not as bubbly. Yeah, yeah. The world is safer. But yeah, this is a. And we're. And we're using a tool. Let's shout out the tool we're using. We're not actually using Zoom for this because. Because we know how annoying zoom can be in many respects. Yeah. Like, we've experienced call drops and weird Internet blips and crappy video and audio, like, degrading. And sometimes it's like our Internet's, like, blazing fast. We're like, what's the problem here?

Yeah, Zoom a lot of times.

Yeah. So we're using Riverside fm.

Riverside fm. That's right.

Yeah.

And it's really cool because what it's basically doing is it's recording my video and my audio locally on my computer, recording Joe's video and audio locally on his, and then our guest, in today's case, Salome's video and audio on her end, and then it just basically throws it all into Dropbox for us. So everybody's audio is recorded on their end. So even if we do have Internet connection issues or bandwidth issues or app issues or any of that kind of stuff, it recorded the audio on their end. And ideally, this should be some of the best audio quality we've had to date. So theoretically, we haven't heard it it yet. We're still recording this stuff, so we don't know what it's going to sound like, but we're assuming it sounds Better than normal, hopefully.

Yeah. So if you're a podcaster, you're thinking about doing some, like, just interviews like this or even just maybe a meeting. I don't know. Check out Riverside fm. We are not sponsored by them at all. They are getting a shout out because it's kind of cool. Seems like it's working better so far.

Yeah, Yeah, I dug it. I dug it.

All right, so. So this episode was packed with exactly what we wanted to learn. Like, I mean, we were very blatant about our selfishness. Yeah. And she knew that going into. But, yeah, Salome, she. Amazing. Amazing. Just results that our friends, and mainly Mr. Butter, voice over there, has experienced. Adam Scheble. What's it. What's the name of his podcast now? It used to be called Casting the Pod.

I think it's called the School of Podcasting. I think maybe I'll look that up real quick just to make sure.

So shout out to Adam for the introduction because, you know, it was just raving that her strategies are just, the engagement is untouchable, and the fact that you can apply that to anything, you know, she. She applies it to course creators and that kind of stuff primarily in the agency. But podcast growth, I mean, like, this is the constant thing that we're asked is, how do you grow a podcast Podcast? Well, there's about a million ways to do it, and you can do, like, there's no quick. This is probably the. The most direct line to. To growth that we've found outside of, like, promoting on podcast platforms, you know, direct things like banner ads and overcast apps and things like that.

Yeah.

But this. This strategy, I'm curious to hear your thoughts about it, you know.

Yeah, yeah. But just to close this loop real quick, Adam's podcast is called Podcasting Business School, the School of Podcasting's Dave Jackson Show. So the two mixed up. This one's pod. His. His show's Podcasting Business School, and he's the one who introduced us to Salome and. And got those amazing results from a Facebook ad that he learned from her. So thanks again, Adam. But, yeah, as far as this episode goes, I. I was just really putting all the pieces together as she was talking, because she was talking about the. The. The. The top of Funnel stuff that we kind of talked about with Kurt, where you're going after the engagement, just get people to engage with you, and then when they engage, then you put them in the middle of funnel, and we've never really used. Used it in the flow that she's talked about.

Right.

When we are driving people to our podcast, we're mostly driving them to where they can get the companions. We put them on our list. Once they're on our list, then we try to get people to go listen to episodes of our podcast by emailing about podcast episodes. We've never really tested a whole lot. Just driving straight from an ad to our show notes page. And I think what she was breaking down is something that'll be really fun for us to test with that.

Yeah. And it doesn't take. I like her approach because it's. It's not taking a big budget to make this happen. You know, she literally said, just set it and kind of forget it with a. With a small daily budget. Did she say, like, five bucks a day on these ones?

Five bucks a day. Cool. Yeah.

Because she was giving us some kind of targets, and I think she even talked about even targets a little bit like metrics to kind of look out for after we recorded, because we asked her a little bit more. But, yeah, like, the whole concept. And we'll share those as well. We'll recap them. But, like, the concept of. Yeah, the engagement. Engagement, I think that's just really cool, because the fact that you don't need to run ads with a cta, I think that's the biggest thing that's probably, you know, stopping a lot of engagement or just trying to be too salesy. Too pushy. Right. From step one with a cold audience, but even to your existing audience, like, if you're. They're not warmed up enough, you probably don't need to be running ads that are constantly telling them to do something. Go do something. It's like Facebook. Yeah. There's a. There's a line. I know I've said it to Matt way too many times now, but in Derek Sivers's new book, your. Your Music and People, it's called. There's just an analogy of, like, you know those guys that are sometimes on the street corners just, like, shouting at people to, like, listen to their cd. And. Yes, people still do this. I was at the beach not too long ago, and I saw these guys, like, trying to hawk their rap CDs. I'm like, really? CDs? But, like. But they were kind of like that. They were just being loud. They're right in the middle of everything, like, trying to get. And it's like, you know, usually those are the ones ignored. I feel like that's kind of like a Facebook ad or any kind of ad that's just, like, screaming for Your attention, you know, yelling at you. It's like, is that really what people want? The journey you want to start and, like, lead people in on? And that's where I love Salome's approach, to just give and have people actually feel something cool and good and laugh. Or maybe. Maybe it is controversial a little bit, but it, like, weeds out the people that you really want, you know, too engage with your stuff. So it's just like any normal post on social.

Yeah, I do think people with Facebook ads get too hung up in, like, I need to drive a Facebook ad to something where I'm gonna get a lead or something where I'm gonna get a sale. I mean, one of the common things we hear from people over the last three years is, man, we see you guys everywhere, right? Like, you guys, I'm. I'm seeing your ads, and we all. And for whatever reason, people always goes, you guys are crushing it right now. You guys are just killing it right now because I'm seeing you every.

Everywhere.

Well, here's the deal. We're doing that through ads where we're not asking for anything. We're just like, hey, here's a cool piece of content. Let's just put it out in front of either our ideal audience or our existing audience, right? Either through retargeting or cold ads. We're just putting cool, valuable content in front of people. And we're not telling. I mean, we may put like, hey, you want more? Go listen to the podcast. But we're not even putting, like, a lot of times, links to where they could go listen to the podcast. We're like. We're just putting valuable content, hopefully. Hopefully trying to get people to go, oh, I really like what these guys put out. And then dig deeper and go research us more and kind of go down our rabbit hole. Which is one of my cliches on finding out.

Bingo.

I don't know if we're doing that or not, but we'll see. Yeah, people will get that reference if they're in the Facebook group. Go to flowchartgroup.com Go check it out. Flowchartgroup.com Shameless plug.

Shameless plug. This is where we're supposed to plug it.

Oh, yeah, the point. Call to action. You also get the action guide of this. This episode. We should probably mention that because, yeah, it. It. We. I feel like there were a lot of good tidbits in this one that were mixed in, even with the intro or, like, her. Her just telling her background and stuff, but then the tactics. So go get the free action guides where we make it very clear in linear for you. Sue on the team is a magician at that. If you go to flowchart group.com it's free. Free. If you give your email, you also get the notes. But you get access to our Facebook group. Two weeks of this episode going live, you'll get those notes for free.

Oh, show. Well, we can go ahead and wrap up this outro, surely.

Oh, let's mention the, the metrics one more time though, because we would do.

A loop on people.

I did. How dare I. And not close it. So she basically said, so for when you're running these, these engagement ads, and primarily we're talking about podcast ads, is you first want to find a, an ad or you know, if you run an ad, kind of look for a unique link CTR click through rate of above 1% is where she said is a good place to start. And then when you do make these ads that are running to the show notes pages, you're. You're shooting for about a dollar to a dollar fifty a click. Landing pages view is the objective in there.

Yeah, yeah. And just real quickly, the difference between a click and a landing page, people probably going, well, what's the difference? Right. Well, if somebody, if somebody clicks on your ad and the page doesn't load or it loads slow and they click away, that's not a landing page view. Right. So if you're looking at your Facebook ads, the amount of landing page views is always going to be a little bit lower than the amount of clicks because there are going to be some people that click over and maybe they don't want to wait for it to load, or maybe they click over to another tab and they close out the tab and actually never view, view the page.

Right.

That kind of thing. So landing page views and clicks, there is a slight distinction, but really that distinction is the people that actually got a chance to view the page.

Right. Would that be smart to just always run those over clicks because it's quality.

Right.

Obviously it might be more expensive.

So here's the thing. Yes. But you don't always have a pixel on the page you're driving to. So Facebook doesn't always know if it's a landing page view. So for example, if we're driving traffic traffic to an affiliate offer that we don't have a pixel on that landing page, I can't optimize for landing page views. I can only optimize for clicks.

I follow. So if it's an internal page, you better have A pixel on that bad boy page that you own and that primarily should be a landing page view if it's going to your own domain.

Yes. Yeah, you want to be optimizing for landing page views if you have control of the pixel. If you don't have control of the pixel, you're going to have to optimize for clicks. So if you were driving straight to an I itunes, like a podcast link on itunes, you can't optimize for landing page views.

Yeah, you're just going to pay more or maybe it tells you you can't do it, I don't know.

But yeah, it'll just basically show that you never get into landing page views and it'll struggle to optimize for it.

Yeah, that's right. Because it's always optimizing based off that data, which I love because this whole thing is feed, feed the machine, the Facebook machine, the algorithm with the engagement data. Even if you're priming the pump, which was super cool because yeah, even if you're still sending $0.01 engagement actions, you know, within the Facebook platform through your ads, even if you're not sending them to a page or anything, you're still kind of front loading your account in Facebook's eyes, which I could totally see and where I think you can. Everyone should be able to see it with their own accounts on Facebook. If they're just posting. It's like if you post more good shit, you're probably going to get more interactions. But if you just randomly post, you just post links all the time or. Best example is if you share a bunch of political stuff or really anything. I just said political, so I want to jab at them. But if you want to. Yeah, if you're sharing all that, you're probably not going to get engagement. Yeah, they don't want that. Yeah, that's not feeding their agenda.

Yeah, I mean, we're doing a lot of experimenting with sort of organic reach on Facebook lately and getting some pretty cool results. And the types of stuff that we're posting organically is probably the same type of stuff we should be posting. Posting as engagement ads. Because if they get engagement organically, then running ads to. It's just pouring gasoline on the fire.

Pretty much. Yeah. It seems like you can test it organically and just mess around there. And then it's like, oh, cool, that would be a great ad. Yeah, bring it over there. Yeah, brilliant. All right, what else we got, Matt?

Easy Webinar.

Yeah, tell me about it.

Everybody should go check out Easy Webinar. So Easy Webinar. This is actually pretty cool. My kids are doing online. Well, they're, they're doing homeschool, but every once in a while they do like, they have like an online check in with like a teacher consultant kind of thing. And, you know, we've been hearing a lot that people are doing school through Zoom. Well, the other day I walked out into our dining room where our kids were doing their online stuff and they were using Easy webinar for the actual class that they were learning on. So that's awesome. That Easy webinar is getting into the schools now, and people are using that instead of Zoom as an alternative of Zoom for actually the, you know, the school system.

How big, how are they using it, though? Like, obviously it was not a webinar. It was more of a meeting room. Right.

I didn't look back while they were on it, but it was basically like one teacher sort of presenting to the, you know, a whole bunch of students. But the students had the ability to raise their hand and ask questions and stuff. I mean, I just kind of saw it in passing, but it looked very similar to, like, what you'd expect from like, Zoom and the functionality of Zoom.

Yeah, I remember Casey. So Casey's a buddy of ours, Casey Zieman. He's been on the podcast a few. You want to know more about him, go check out Casey on the. In your app.

Back on the podcast, we should.

No, because a lot, a lot has changed in webinar. Well, webinars in general, but also easy webinars. So, yeah, so, yeah, let's just wrap it up as saying, obviously there's more to it than just webinars. You can do like meeting rooms, which is kind of like what we were thinking about. I mean, there's. Yeah, I don't know, it's just lots of, lots of uses. So, uh, Easy Webinar is what I'm trying to say is they have a killer deal for you. But also on that page, you'll see all the cool stuff they can do for you. Easy webinar. So it's not just webinars, all this stuff. That's what I was trying to say. So if you go to easywebinar.com hustle, that's easywebinar.com hustole. They are hooking you up with a nice discount, and you'll see it on that page.

Go check it out. And if you enjoyed this episode, you know anybody who has a podcast or trying to build an audience, any of that kind of thing.

Stuff.

Share this with them. Let other people know about this info. Don't hoard it. Don't be a hoarder. Okay?

Why would you hoarder information that's in digital form? That's just weird because it's still.

So share the love. There's people out there that need you to share this with them.

Right?

So I'm getting very serious and intense right now.

You're looking in the camera, and I don't even know if we're going to use this video, but probably not. He's looking in the camera, y', all, and he's looking at you, Jim, or me, Mary or Sue or. Or Jacob or. Those are now the people on our team.

You just named all of our team members. Good job.

Not Mary and. And Jim, and they're. They're not in the team yet, but not yet.

We're looking. We're looking to hire a Mary in a gym. So if you know a Mary or a gym, let us know because we're looking to hire one.

It's the weirdest thing to say.

No, I don't know what I'm talking about anymore. We're delirious.

Yeah. It's our only podcast today. All right, so listening. Go share it around. Go flowchart group.com for the notes in the group and see you next time.

Bye.

Bye. Thanks, everybody, for listening to this episode of the Hustle and Flowchart podcast for taking the time to listen. We want to give you something a little bit special. Every single episode that we do, we actually have somebody on our team take notes. We basically have a Cliff's Notes version of every episode where you can go and find all of the tips and tactics that they laid out, all of the resources that they laid out, all the good stuff from this episode. We actually have a nice, simple notes version that you can find on our website. So go to evergreenprofits.com find this episode that you just listened to, and give us your email address, and we'll send you the notes. Thanks for listening.

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