Scott Desgrosseilliers — Discover Your Most Effective Marketing Channels

Boom, boom, Boom, Boom, boom, boom.

What's up, everybody? You're listening to the Hustle and Flowchart podcast with your boys, Matt Wolf and Joe Fear. Yellow. Yellow, Yellow.

Orange. Orange. Orange.

What's up? Welcome back to the Hustle and Flowchart podcast.

What the hell is that? It's great. Yeah, that's Yellow Matt, and apparently that's Orange Joe.

Anyway, so today we've got an awesome guest, as we always do. Today, we're actually talking about the most exciting topic in the world, tracking and stats.

I love it.

No, it's actually a really. It is an interesting topic, and you're really going to enjoy this. This is with Scott Degraussier.

Yeah.

Did I say that right?

I believe he did. All right, Scott, you can whoop his head.

This episode is with Scott, the founder of Wicked Reports.

And this is a friend to any online business owner who wants to or offline who definitely wants to scale their stuff.

Oh, yeah. After you listen to this episode, you're gon to have a full understanding of exactly why, first of all, why you probably need this tool, Wicked Reports, in your life, but also why you should be tracking. And you're gonna. It's not all about Wicked. There's a lot of actionable tips and advice on how to properly track things even if you're not using this tool. He has a tool that makes it a lot simpler, and we talk about what that can do as well. But basically, the idea behind this episode is when it comes to tracking, most people have an issue. I mean, we have this issue of what's called attribution tracking. If somebody comes to your website through, let's say, SEO, they find you on the search engine, they' visit your blog, then you retarget them with a Facebook ad, and they click on your ad, and then they opt into your list, and then you email them from your list, and then you finally make the sale. And that sale happens, like, 15 days later. Yeah, because they found you through SEO. They got retargeted, they entered your list, then you mailed your list. Well, you probably think, cool, my list is great. My list is what makes me money. But that SEO, that search engine traffic helped make that sale, that Facebook retargeting ad helped make that sale. And if you just assumed my list is the only thing that works, and you go and turn off the Facebook ad and you stop focusing on SEO, and all of a sudden you stop making sales. Well, that's what Wicked helps you see. It shows you that entire picture.

Yeah.

And so that's what we're discussing on today's episode is how to keep all that on track in your business.

Well, yeah, and I think a big thing that resonated from this conversation is that most people just don't chill enough when they start a marketing experience or experiment. Jesus. And basically this whole thing will kind of paint a picture of what's happening throughout all steps, from the first touch all the way to the conversion at the end. And it's even great for non analytical people like me. It's great for analytical folks as well. But if you want to start actually visualizing how this is happening, how you're getting that roi, knowing things like lifetime value, you'll be able to figure out if you think your email, your engagement's going down, down, down, which a lot of people have been talking about, but you don't actually realize the value of that email. Even if the engagement's low, you could be potentially profiting more than any other channel. But you would never really know without something like Wicked. So cool conversation. It'll open up your eyes. Even if, again, you don't actually use Wicked yourself, you'll get a ton from this. So let's dig into it right now. Hey, Scott, how you doing, man?

I'm doing great. How are you?

Pretty good. Yeah. I think this was like long awaited, this chat with you. Mutual buddy of ours, Dan Ryan. He's probably our Dan the Man, number one lurking subscriber to this podcast.

Say hello to Dan because he's definitely listening to this.

Dan the man, how are you?

Yeah, man. So, yeah, he introduced us. We met a few times, I think at his office. But I mean, I think over the time how we've evolved as a company, we're like, holy moly, we need to talk to Scott. His, you know, Wicked reports, everything you have there, which we'll dig into here. It's just like, it's more glaring. I'm like, shit, we need this. Or at least we need to figure out how the hell are people actually turning into customers.

Yeah, that tends to help.

Yeah, so we'll definitely dive into that and how we, how we figure all that stuff out. And we'll use our own business as an example because selfishly, we want to learn your answers to what you would do if you were us. But before we do, let's kind of tell your story real quick. Quick two minute little intro, how you kind of got into the business world, how you got the idea for what you're doing now and sort of that evolution. And let's Just start there.

Sure. Well, it all started because I loved going to the horse track and betting on horses with my dad as an illegal underage gambler.

Love it.

Were you successful?

I did okay on my little two dollar bets. You know, my dad made 20 bu. I get two dollars. If I lost all 10 races, I'd be out of money.

Yeah, nice.

I didn't used to do that. And so I started like, people would be looking at the program. I'd be like, all these numbers, what's the point of them? I'd be like, ah, it kind of tells you how they did in the other races. And I came across a book on how to handicap standard bred horses. This is an old crappy track in middle of nowhere Maine, where the horses would ride on, the drivers would be on tracks behind the horses. So there'd be all this math involved with trying to figure out what. What made a horse potentially more likely to win. And I got this book on it and I was just fascinated with it. And I remember we went to like Florida. This is like my eighth grade vacation. And I just wanted to score old horse tracks, score the old horse racing programs to try and predict like the winner. I thought it was the coolest thing to use numbers to predict things. And my parents thought I was crazy and kept begging me to go outside. And so I was always into that. So I got into Nasdaq trading like in the mid-90s, because I was just into systems to try to predict things. I thought it was a fun thing to do. And so then I happened to be running all the databases@apments.com and I was bored and I was moving cross country and they don't allow remote employees, but they allowed me to work remote for a while because I was running a lot of data for them. And at the same time I was working with this guy, getmainlobster.com he's a good friend of mine and he sells live lobsters online. And I was doing his infusion self consulting for him just as like a hobby kind of thing. And he was like, well, Facebook sucks for lobster. I just blew four grand. I got a ton of clicks, but only got one sale. I lost 3,000 bucks and his budget for the month was four grand. So he was pretty distraught. And I was like, well, that seems puzzling to me that you thought someone gonna see this ad from some random lobster guy and just immediately buy. That just sound puzzling. I go, why don't you track the leads over time and see if they buy eventually? And he's like, well, how am I going to do that? And that's kind of how Wicked reports got started. I decided to hack something up. The next thing I knew, about four or five months later, I was able to tell him that women 40 or older who liked a Boston sports team but didn't live in New England was worth 10 to 1. He lost his mind over that. That just got the ball rolling right.

There.

That early iteration of Wicked. Now, what did that look like? Did you actually go and build a whole software platform to help them determine that just for one person, or was that you pouring over Excel spreadsheets and figuring it out for them?

That was a lot of Excel spreadsheets with a lot of naming conventions and every form a bunch of hidden fields, and then manipulating every single link and redirects. And it fell apart the moment you even, like, looked at it. You know, it was like a house of cards that you just had to, like, pray would stay up. But it did enough for us to learn that.

Oh, interesting. So were you a software guy before? I mean, did you dive in and start coding stuff up? Or did you go, okay, this is an interesting idea. Let's go find a development team.

I wanted to prove out the concept first. My background is in data. I was the type of guy, like, when I was 8, I put my mother' Christmas card addresses and recipes on my. On my Commodore 64 database. I just thought it was easy. It was just always easy for me to do databases. So, like, when I. My first, like, database job was at Motorola and I was like 26 or, excuse me, I think 29, and I had to. They didn't know what everyone was working on in the phone business because Excel only had 52,000 rows at the time, and it would crash. And they had like 80,000 employees. They had no idea what everyone was doing until I could make a database to figure it out.

That's so cool.

So it just kind of was like, my back was data, and I just immediately, like, he told me the problem, and pretty quickly I saw, like, how I would store it and how I would name it. But at the first pass, I was just shoving stuff into custom fields and then mapping it through a ton of Excel to get the ball rolling, and it worked out.

So how did that shake out that first iteration for your lobster buddy?

So now he's made 1.7 million in Facebook revenue off about 215k. Spent damn over three years. So he's crushed. Just on Facebook. He's made a bunch elsewhere, too.

Yeah.

So you know, he was only, only one channel. He had Groupon that loved him for a while. Remember Groupon?

Well, they were humongous. And in Chicago, where they were formed, it was like. And you never ate anywhere unless it was a Groupon. Like it was just like, it was embarrassing if you don't.

Cheapskates.

I'm one of them.

Yeah, yeah. And so they loved him because it was a higher tick item. They can make a little more on their spread. So once it started to go down, he was in a little bit of a pickle. But email marketing and Facebook AdWords going on.

You bring up a big point that a lot of companies I know, a ton of them just our friends, local companies online that totally got obliterated by Groupon as one. We're not going to go down that vein too far, but run their company on Excel spreadsheets or just random custom fields. But they don't know what the hell that means or how to put it together. So we'll dig into. I think you'd be curious to kind of want to talk about tracking and just attribution for any business. And I know obviously this spans the gamut. Your software is great for people actually doing a bunch of advertising, but how would we go approach, how does it look like attribution these days for a normal company online?

They don't have it or they're relying strictly on what the ad platforms tell them, which is generally last, last view, sometimes last click. And the problem with that, it's something, but it's just showing the last step of a generally 7 to 30, 40 step process.

When people get frustrated online. The number one thing that I see in all my different Facebook ad buyer groups is people can't seem to scale their spend. And that's because when they see sales reported inside Facebook or AdWords, I guess we should call it Google Ads now, when you see it in there, it's a mix. Those are the last things. Sometimes someone viewed it, but then they bought off email. Sometimes they viewed it in AdWords and then they bought off Facebook. Sometimes the Facebook did really make the sale, but it ignores the fact that that person got familiar with your brand or on your email list weeks or months or possibly even years before that. And that's where you found the customer. So when you increase your spend based on what the last thing was, you're not going to get the incremental boost because.

It'S just a hodgepodge of data that wasn't meant to answer your question, which is where do I find More customers. It's just saying, here's the last thing they viewed in our platform within 30 days, which isn't. Or the last thing they clicked on within 30 days.

Yeah, yeah. So just to kind of give like an example from our own business. So the. And we still run into this issue ourselves to this day, so hopefully, you know, we'll go down this route a little bit. But, you know, some of our number one traffic source right now is from SEO. So people often discover us from searching something on Google. They find one of our links to one of our pieces of content, they read it, and then once they kind of hit our website, then they're on our retarget campaigns. We retarget with Google, we retarget with Twitter, we retarget with Facebook. You know, all those types of places. So somebody might discover us from SEO, go to our site, leave, see one of our ads on Facebook, come back to our site. Maybe this time around, the second time they opt into our list and now they're on our list. And then a week later, they may get an email from us. Click on that email and then finally buy. Well, that whole path, it looks like, okay, the email is what made the sale, but there was a lot that led up to getting that person on our list. And you know, that that's what we're talking about when we talk about attribution tracking is, is, you know, how do we see that full path and kind of figure out what the sort of optimal path we want our customers to take is?

Yeah, I call that, you know, reverse engineering high value customer acquisition, which doesn't flow off the tongue. I've said it about 80 million times, so now I can say it. I still was like, hey, I'm gonna spit this out. Okay, we just say edit.

Yeah. So it's looking at. And then there's a lot of touch points. So you gotta try to, I mean, you're gonna drown in data looking at all of them. So how do you flush out the ones that provide the highest roi, Minimal amount of effort from the business owner to look at.

Right. Because you might run into issues too, where you go, okay, this person came in through a Google Ad that I'm running, and then maybe two weeks later they buy off of a Facebook retargeting ad. Well, you might find that you have a whole bunch of people coming into your sort of retargeting audience through a Google Ad and. But none of them are buying and then they're being retargeted on Facebook and then finally buying. Well, I might go shut off that Google Ad because I assume that Google Ads not doing anything for me because everybody's coming off of the Facebook ad. But you know, I'm throwing the baby out with the bathwater by turning off the thing that drove the initial traffic. But without all the right tracking and price, how do I know that that initial Google Ad is what drove most of the clicks that led to the retarget that led to the sale? Exactly.

And when we, I looked at at the time in January, we attracted one and a half billion in sales and what all small business sales. There's a lot of transactions in there. And what we found was that the average time between first click and first purchase was 42 days. So you know, if that Google Ad was 40 days ago, if your average and it's 40 days ago and then that retargeting. Yeah, you'd lose it and turn it off. Or if they both happen quick, both of them show sales and then you add up your conversions from both platforms and it's showing double the sales of what you actually had. So then you don't trust the data that way. And then you get all confused because you can't scale both. You didn't have two sales that day, you had one. So how do you deal with that? Which there's a couple ways to deal with it. Get in the weeds when you're ready or not, or go run terrified from it if you're not up for it.

Well, that's the thing. Yeah, I think we're setting the stage here, here to show, hey, any scale business you're at right now, you better figure out your freaking attribution. This whole, this whole, I'm kind of looking at it as like a big customer journey, you know, big path.

Well, just another example too is, you know, James Schramko, a mutual friend of all of ours, he, he, he actually put out a training video that we watched recently about these videos that he's posting to all the social media channels. And he always assumed that LinkedIn was just bad. He kind of, he just kind of stopped doing anything with LinkedIn at all. Stopped posting on there, just totally ignored it. But when he actually set up wicked reports and started looking at all of his numbers, he actually found that LinkedIn drove a pretty significant amount of traffic when he posted on LinkedIn. He may not have gotten a lot of engagement on those posts. So he assumed, okay, LinkedIn just kind of sucks for marketing. But when he actually looked into the data, he found that LinkedIn was a pretty Significant traffic source.

Yeah. It's an interesting thing with engagement. It doesn't always mean revenue at all. Not even, I mean not on the spot, but I mean like ever. And then other times it does. And so you don't know. Unless you know. I found that with email too. Everyone poo poos email now because it's not cool anymore. It's been around forever. Maybe I'm just the old curmudgeon in the corner waving my cane. What about email? But the truth is is that people still making a lot of money on email. Even if it wasn't that even if they saw like the retargeting works as well. Very well. But people will look through email. If they're hot to buy, they'll then go back. They're the ones reading your emails or they'll go back through and search them to see if your discount codes still work or. What was that deal? I got emailed two weeks ago. Now I'm ready to buy Marquette from Get me Lobster had something. I did one of my very first digital marketer speech. I had him up on stage and he had this one thing where he had sent an email out and got 1% click rate which no one's going to run around and be bragging about their 1% click rate. And he made $9,000 on the email. Which is that good or bad? You don't know. Well, Mark's average email was like a little over two grand. So he actually made four and a half times what he normally made on the email. So even though it had a 1% click rate, he made 4 and a half times the money. So it was a good email. So then he resent the same thing out to anyone that hadn't clicked and he made another nine grand. So it was about his birthday, something about lobster on his birthday, I don't know. So he made 18 grand getting 2% of his list to click.

Yeah, that's pretty cool stuff I thought.

Because yeah, we've definitely heard and I mean we've seen it also occasionally in certain lists that you know your engagement on email is going down, you know, because of all these so and so reasons, whatever. But what you just said there, it's like could have 1% click through but what are you selling on the other side of that click right there.

Exactly.

For sure, man. So without, you know, something like wicked or some kind of attribution tracking, you would never know.

Yeah, I kind of feel like with email engagement that has been sort of declining over the years, the people that actually do engage. Are higher quality people engaging too. So you know, engagement's going down, but the quality of the actual click is probably going up as a result.

Yeah, I feel like it's a signal strength. Like you open an email or you view an ad, that's one thing. But if you click, that's another one. That's a stronger signal because you're willing to say, okay, you've got me enough interested that I'm going to go actually see what you want me to go see.

Yep.

And if they join your email list, that's a bigger one because now like, okay, I'm going to take all your annoying emails now or hope that you don't cross my fingers, that you don't annoy me. And then of course buying being the ultimate signal.

Yeah.

So that's kind of how I tried to look at the different almost point values I was going to give different signals in. Wicked was what I mean when I go and interact. Like I hate joining an email list because I try to keep zero inbox.

Yeah, me too.

I'm sure as hell not going to take someone else's emails every day just to like, just to be nice or because I'm curious. I'm trying to keep a clean inbox. So I'm like a crazy person about it.

I'm trying to dial myself in. Yeah, Matt's got the zero inbox thing. Dan.

Well, I mean I think Scott and I, I think are actually pretty similar personalities as far as like sort of data numbers nerds. It's funny, this is kind of going back a couple minutes ago when you were talking about how you used to make spreadsheets. When I was younger, I used to use Visual Basic and.

Access Microsoft Access. I had a giant comic book collection. I had thousands of comic books and I entered every single comic book into my database. And then I like, I sorted them by year, by title, I gave them all one to five star reviews and I had this giant database of 2,000 comic books that were all ranked and reviewed and it all came because I just was such a nerd that I just liked playing with Visual Basic and Microsoft Access.

Yeah, I learned that Visual Basic.

As well, how to do front end programming and then I just found I was a little better at data, so stuck.

With that freaking nerd.

So for the nerds that are not or the non nerds like me.

Yes, cool person.

Yeah, cool guys, I think I'm nerd too. But for us non analytical folk, I guess what are some ways that you can kind of like grab Obviously you're grabbing my attention. I've seen the back end of Wicked and kind of what's possible. But I guess for folks who don't dig into the numbers, is there a good way to kind of, I guess get them in the weeds and get them to start tracking or hire someone?

Well, the easiest way to start is to put UTM codes on your email links because you can do it for free and Google Analytics will pick up on the UTM links and you can at least start seeing is anyone clicking on my emails. And then if you set up Google Analytics goals, you can at least say, well, when I click on the emails, are they then buying or whatever else your goals might happen to be? Because that'll get. That was what can get some people. It's accessible, you know, you're sending an email, are people clicking and then are they doing anything? But furthermore, it gets you into Google Analytics with more meaning because you set those UTM codes up. UTM codes. I know you touched on them with Chris Mercer. I believe.

So the labor, the, you know, that's not the right word. I won't restate all the stuff he already mentioned. But with UTM codes though, I mean you can give meaning. And then when you're in Google Analytics, you can look at all the different cool things of Google Analytics using your words. Like you called that email something. How long did those people stay on the site? Did they go anywhere else? Did they do anything? And that's a lot better than just kind of. I think you need to approach.

To get into it at first is try to answer a question because that then gives you a focus rather than just aimlessly looking at a grid of numbers and oh, that's nice. My bounce rate's this or you can't do anything with that. You got to go in and say, I sent this email, I want to decide should I send it again or not? And then you'll quickly come to the realization, oh crap, I don't know how any of my other emails did. So I don't know. So then you need like a benchmark or a baseline to be able to know are you doing better or worse than average. So we do a lot of work on that now to try to give people guidance.

No, I like that because my non analytical brain loves exactly what you just said is approach it with a question. Because that's something I've always done and I have luckily Matt over here to do a lot of the tracking stuff and digging into the deep numbers. But if I can go into analytics or some kind of dashboard with some visuals. Things are organized in my language. I can start to build a picture at least a little bit in Google Analytics of what's happening, what's just totally flopping and what's the shit that I should keep sending and doing more of.

Yeah, when we redid our homepage when people sign in.

Our retention went up. Massive. It was doing well at the time, but it went way up. And we were trying to figure out what it was and we realized, oh, we changed our homepage. And what we did on our homepage, it was inspired by an ESPN article breaking down the NBA Finals. It's just this really cool. It had these different scenarios of the offense, possession, all the advanced NBA stats, and cool visuals. First I was attracted to the visuals, but then I realized we should just ask. The report title should be questions. Why should people even be logging in? They should be asking these questions. Let's just ask them and answer them and tell them what to do with it.

Right.

When they log in, as long as they're tracking, set up right. If they don't want to go look at all the reports that we all love, we'll already give them answers flushed out on the first page. And that's a big hit.

I like that. I think the setup. I know that feels daunting to me, at least on the Google UTM side, all that stuff, but I know in the grand scheme it's pretty damn easy once you set it up. Once.

It depends on. Yeah, it depends on your stacks. Some stacks are quite easy and other ones are going to be some work.

Yeah, for sure. What you got, Matt? I think you had a question there.

I was just going to dig into some of the tracking stuff. I know this is going to be kind of a loaded question because it's going to probably be different for different businesses. But what are some key metrics that you feel most businesses should be keeping an eye on?

Well, there's a couple I really like. One being roi, return on investment.

I'm not sure why you like that one.

And the return on investment calculated is like revenue. Subtract the cost and then divide by the cost. Otherwise you're, you know, otherwise you're going to show that you made 100% when you really made nothing. I like that one the best because it's a very clear thing of should you keep doing whatever you're doing or not? Well, you need to make. You can't lose money forever. So you need to be making money. And ROI tells you if you are So I like that one a lot. Lifetime value is another one. Because in order to know what you can spend to acquire a customer, you got to know how valuable they are over the lifetime of them. And then you work back from the lifetime value to maybe what's the value in 60 days? And then if you want to make money in 60 days and a customer's worth $100 up to 60 days, well, you can't spend 100 bucks to get a customer. You got to maybe spend 50 if you want to double your money. And then, okay, if I'm going to. You work back, you can mathematically work back to figure out what you can pay for a lead. And then you've got your tactical approach to your overall number strategy, which is, okay, I've worked back that my customer is worth this, so I can pay this for a new lead because of my conversion rates all the way down. So now I gotta make sure I'm getting leads in at that price or cheaper. Hopefully.

Makes sense. I love what you just said. There is a mix of strategy, knowing your numbers, these key metrics, but then going back to the tactics and then you figure out, okay, was it email, was it Facebook, whatever, you know, and do more of that.

Yeah, my Q4 is all about creating kind of like done for you playbooks that utilize the data and then give you the actions and then walk you through what to go do. Because usually you need to give things like a week. So do this, wait a week and then come here, look at these and then either scale, chill or kill. You know, if it's doing better than normal, you spend more, you know, if it's doing so. So then chill out because I mean, you're still bringing in money and then if it's not, you kill it. And that all depends on having, you know, the right guns, looking at the right numbers, but then also having a benchmark so you know if you're doing better or worse than how you normally do. Because seeing all these different businesses and wicked things are so relative. You know, someone get 10 sales in a day and be ecstatic. Someone else would be like jump off a bridge over.

It depends on what your business is and how much you're spending to get those 10 sales.

Yeah, for sure. So quick follow up to that then. What do you think most business, let's see, how do I word this? What do you think most businesses do wrong when it comes to tracking what's something you see commonly? That I would probably not approach it that way at all.

The two things is Relying on Last Click or Last View is a big mistake because I mean that's all the numbers you generally have. And so then you can't scale the earlier parts of your funnel looking at Last Click. The other thing is to focus on either the quantity of leads or clicks or the price of them without knowing if there's revenue on the other end. Because you know, you could, you could run a survey or a giveaway. You know, that was a rookie marketing thing. Everyone probably does. Hey, I'm run this contest. All people are going to want to win it. Only one will win. But then they all show that they really wanted this product. So then someone going to buy it because I'm going to offer it a discount because they end up the contest. Everyone fucking does that.

It's true.

And it sucks.

We're guilty just as bad as the rest.

It doesn't work. Oh, maybe if it works well.

Well then.

You know what? I'll still stand by what I said. It generally sucks though. I've seen too many people do it and it doesn't really work that well. I know, we tried it. We got sucked into one. It was terrible. Yeah, I did was end up giving up a lifetime wicked reports account. I was like irritated.

So when you say like the contests don't typically work, do you just mean like it doesn't often generate a lot of sales?

Yeah, it does. More people that enter contests just want to win stuff. Not necessarily particularly more expensive things. Maybe it's a $10 thing, whatever. Something's going to cost 1,000 or so, a couple thousand over the lifetime of the investment people are trying to win. They aren't necessarily then going to buy. If you have the pain point for a higher end product and you have the budget, then if the marketing is good enough, you're going to buy it. Or your pains bad enough that you need to solve it. But you know, if you. I don't know, I've just seen a lot of crappy leads commit crappy aliens.

That makes sense. And yeah, there's a lot of factors there. I know we've had a couple podcasts or not podcasts contest guys on the podcast here. But yeah, I could see what you mean. Most people are just kind of hacking something and hoping it'll turn in a bunch of money.

Yeah, yeah, they're buying like a contest software jamming a few things. If it's done strategically, intelligently, it could be possible. I mean it's normally though when things like that happen, like you say, oh, I went viral with my Video, whatever. You hear about it. And everyone runs around and tries to create viral videos. Well, it's newsworthy because it's news, because it doesn't happen a lot. You don't just create a video, then it goes viral. Think of all the videos that are out there, only a few go viral and they have a few special things that made them work or they followed a framework or someone's system that repeatedly can do it. And people will lose that in the noise of oh contest. I'm gonna get a ton of cheap or someone advertising, I get 10 cent video views. Like, well, big deal.

Maybe it's a big deal. I mean, it depends, you know, do you retarget them? And then you made 500% ROI in a month and that is a big deal. I want to do that too.

If not.

Yep, I love it. Now here's a. This is sort of a selfish question which we ask a lot on our podcast.

So one of the questions I have, and I actually don't even know if this is, this is totally possible or not, but let's say we're trying to scale a podcast. We're actually not necessarily like with the podcast we're not going for. How much is this going to make us? It's very much a branding.

You know, we're growing our brand, growing our audience through the podcast. Eventually it will lead to sales as people enter our audience. But would you have any advice for someone on, okay, I want to scale this podcast. What should I be tracking? How should I manage that?

Yeah, you could use either UTM codes or, you know, redirect links. Well, probably still with UTM codes. And then all your organic places you're floating this around, you'll be able to set up some sort of tracking to see what leads to subscriptions or podcast downloads. And then with that, you'd be able to see what's working to grow your audience. So if your metric is listeners or email list growth, then that's what you measure. Wherever you're promoting it, you need something trackable or else you're not going to know if it worked or not. You're just going to have hopefully more subscribers and no idea how you got them.

Yeah, so it's basically figure out that last endpoint action, whatever we're going for, and then build it back from that way.

Yeah, and one of the things we're doing is we're trying to get listeners to our podcast. So what I've actually been doing, and you might, this might be a good idea or bad idea. I'LL hear your opinion in a second. But what we're actually doing is I actually have a conversion set for anybody who stays on the site for over a minute. So I'm optimizing for time on site essentially, because I can send a. A shit ton of clicks through Taboola and Outbrain and Facebook ads and Google Ads and all that sort of thing, but I don't really want the people that are going to land on it for four seconds and go, oh, that's not what I want, and go away. So I'm optimizing for people that stay longer on our site because those are people likely actually pressing play and listening to the podcast.

Yeah, I like that. That's a good idea because that's a reasonable guess that they're listening. I mean, who hangs out for a couple minutes on a site unless they're into it?

And I guess the same because we do a ton of affiliate marketing and I know we have a lot of people that do that listening as well and tracking on. That's just tough, you know, the standard way, especially if you can't get a pixel on, you know, after the sale. Have you seen some best practices?

Yeah.

Yeah.

Okay. Sorry, I didn't mean to interrupt you.

That. Go for it.

So here's how we. Yeah, so one thing. When you're sending out your. Are you the person who has affiliates or you're an affiliate?

We are an affiliate.

Okay. So if you're an affiliate and you need to track leads and sales that happened, you can have the.

Person you're selling for fire HTTP posts either through zapier or infusionsoft. I mean, there's a lot of ways to do that to send you fire you the event that says, hey, something good happened here. So you can get indication that it's working.

It's not done often because there's a little bit of work involved and no one wants to do that. But that does work. So it's almost like how the Facebook pixel fires on a page for a given event. You can have that happen a couple of different ways so that you can get stats to go on.

Yeah, that makes sense.

That's one way to do it.

I mean, the way we're currently doing it right now is we figure we can only optimize up to our last sort of touch point. So we use sort of redirect links for our affiliate link. So we'll use a tool called pretty link for WordPress. Pre link pro lets you actually put like, like code in. So this code fires and Then redirects. So what we actually do is we have our pixel code on the redirect links and then we fire that as a conversion. So when we're trying to optimize for conversions through affiliate marketing, we're just optimizing for that. Did they click to our. On our affiliate link to go to the page where the sales actually made? That's the furthest point that we actually can optimize for for most affiliate products. So that's usually what we're going for is that. Did they click to our affiliate link? All said and done.

Yeah, that's pretty good. Yeah, that's pretty good. You could emulate. You could have the person you're selling for. Is there another way to say that the affiliate E. I don't know what that calls?

Yeah, we say the affiliate and the product creator.

So the product creator could fire off something for you at different points. If you identified spots you needed, it wouldn't show in your signal unless they. Well, they could put it in your. Not sure if they could fire it to your Facebook pixel, but they can at least send it to you as data, depending on what system you're using.

I like it.

Wicked Reports. We do those for random things like tracking a lot of tricky things or things that happen pre Wicked Reports that they want in Wicked Reports. HTTP post it up and that's how we get it in there.

Yeah, I think this is probably a good transition into like, let's chat about Wicked Reports a bit and some of the capabilities. One of the questions I have is. I know. So coming back to the affiliate thing, one of the things that you can do with Facebook now is you can actually manually enter conversions, you know, upload a list of emails and say these all converted and then, you know, Facebook will try to match that data with any sort of tracking that came through and try to attribute the conversions that way with Wicked Reports. Is that another option for affiliate stuff? If I have a list of emails that purchase, can it attribute back the sequences that they came through?

It can if we have tracking during the time of the sale.

Yes. Got it.

Okay.

And we enable. That's called Facebook offline conversions. We enable that for advertisers and we use it for attribution. If we don't have a last click, we'll use the Facebook last view, which I think we're the only ones doing that out there. I worked a lot with Facebook on that. But yeah, no. So we. As long as we have tracking, we can match it up to any event you send us no matter how far back in time, as long as you're a customer of ours. And if we don't, you can tell us what you want the tracking to be and we can create it. So if you had some tag structure that said these hundred people came from Facebook campaign number three, you could shove that up and see all the ROI numbers and everything in wicked.

Got it, Got it. So real quickly, let's step back and give a real quick explanation of what WICKED reports is. What's the sort of elevator pitch for what it is?

We're a data driven marketer's playbook to grow your business faster. And we like to think of ourselves as, I guess like the video game cheat codes for marketers, because if you have the numbers dialed in, you can quickly see where you should spend and where you should stop spending. How we do that is by tracking a lot of things that go on and then aggregating all your data from your CRM, ad platforms, email service providers and whatever other clicks you have going on and kind of cobble it together. Then we have these patent pending attribution models based on that answer questions of things you're trying to do in your market. For example, where did I find these new. Where do I find new leads that buy is a question every marketer asks every day and wants to know the answer. And so how we answer that is with something called first opt in attribution, which means we track what makes someone become a new lead for the very first time in your CRM. We look back and see what click that was and we hold that point in time because we know that's what made them as a new lead. And we also hold the costs of whatever it took to get them and hopefully hundreds of others or thousands of others. And then as they start buying months down the road, we kind of retroactively update the ROI and revenue of that lead gen campaign. Because most people don't run a lead generation campaign for that long and it's usually a lot shorter than you think that they run it because the people don't buy quick enough. So we do a lot of work around preserving steps that happened and then trying to cut through all the clicks and views to say, what's the most important things that we can show you that you can spend or stop spending and make more money.

I like it, that's all. It's amazing stuff. I want to build a picture here and you can help me here. I want to build a picture of who is not quite ready for wicked, but can obviously get A lot from what we just talked about and the Chris Mercer episode with UTMs and all that. Who is like Wicked's most ideal customer?

Wicked's most ideal customer is spending at least $3,000 a month on paid advertising and has some offers that work because we're not type. If you're new to business and you either don't have a hundred dollar a day budget or you haven't found an offer that's actually converting anywhere for any significant volume, we're not a good fit because we're not going to have any data to show you other than nothing's working. Which is going to get irritating if you just see negative 100% all the time or negative 90%. So that's a key factor in us that we want enough data and we want a minimum of probably 40 sales per month because otherwise we're not going to be able to show you anything. If you get 10 sales a month, let's say we track six of them. Do you really want to pay us to tell you info about six sales? I mean if they're $100,000 sales a piece, probably, but otherwise no. So that's another factor. And if we're. If the majority of your revenue is organic search and you're not doing paid funnels, then we're not as much value because you know we can tell you something came organic but that's it. You really can't get to the keyword of the organic search. Google hides that from us. So. So that was a key burning question. It's not one we're going to be able to answer for you.

Yeah. And if you are relying on organic traffic, great for you. If you're actually making money. How about you throw some retargeting ads out there on Facebook and Google at a minimum you'll make more money. Promise.

Exactly.

So no, that's cool. I just wanted to qualify Wicked before people were just like flooding you with questions or whatever it might be.

Plus we've got integrations with most of the CRMs that any small business will use in most of the carts. So that takes care of that headache. Trying to think if there's any major ones that we don't have.

We've seen the back end there integrations and I think you're integrated way more than most people ever would be other softwares.

And it pretty much works with all the ad platforms as well. Right. Are there any ad platforms that are.

Common Facebook natively so you don't have to do anything. We'll automatically track the Ads. Put tracking on the ads and we'll pull all the costs and clicks. You just have to put our tracking script on the destination pages.

Got it.

Taboola and Outbrain work, but it's a little more manual. You got to use UTMS and type in the costs so it works. But it's a little bit of labor that people don't always want to do. And so I don't want to say, hey, it's easy. We have a drag and drop CSV that does make it easier but it's still like it just takes some detail to do that. We may be in a. We are looking around to see. Q4 is kind of open for us to figure out what we're going to integrate with next. So if there's enough demand we're going to integrate with those Taboola or Outbrain or Bing or LinkedIn. We just got to decide.

Yeah, and I wanted to qualify people a little bit more. Is like who is the best or is there a consistent like an industry online or maybe even offline that you found that you guys just freaking rock and roll with more or is it not really?

It's the life cycle. The longer your sales cycle, the more you're going to value us. If you have a, a ten dollar widget that you sell just with direct response ads, you know, like a lot of, oh, Amazon, we don't work that well. Yeah, we do on Amazon because they hide the customer info so we don't match it up. All that stuff's based on verifiable orders and verifiable leads and we can't verify the sale of Amazon.

Gotcha. Makes sense. So it means like a lot of E comm people I would imagine if their margins are pretty slim.

I don't know if that's a good fit or not. I'm sure if they're freaking crushing it. Tons of sales, high price, it'd be a pretty good fit for you guys.

Yeah, if you're doing E comm on like toothbrushes, that'd be terrible because everyone already had just Google's toothbrush or whatever and then goes and buys it for sure. So there's not a lot of journey to deduce. What's that?

I said your profit margin is probably 15 cents a unit. So find a new business.

Yeah, yeah. Tight margins and commodities are not good points.

No, thank you. Well, what are some quick wins? Like if someone were to get their tracking going, is there a common thing and obviously roi, I would say think would be a big part of this that you recommend. Folks like, if they sign up to Wicked, they start to see their numbers for the very first time and they're like, holy shit, this thing's popping off. How do you help them spot that? Or how should they spot that?

So we have a checklist that takes over the app initially for the first 14 days where people pick a focus and it could be any ad platform or email and then they pick a strategy. And the four we have are that we ask them on are you trying to do branding, new lead gen, retargeting or last click sales? Not that you can't do all of them, but we try and have them orient their brain around which thing are they trying to work on first. And then we pay them a hundred bucks if they make a decision in that area within 14 days, which most people do. And so the first thing is to pick a focus because otherwise you can get distracted. There's a lot of stuff you can do. But the wow usually happens.

In that two weeks. If they're trying to run like cold traffic lead gen and they run it for a week and then turn it off. And then all of a sudden they see sales even though they're not spending and they're like, wait a minute, I think there's a bug. I'm seeing sales and I'm not spending. And then we explain to them, no, the leads are buying now and you might want to turn it back on. And we show them the ROI over the time. That's usually a pretty exciting moment for people. And that's when they get. We do and tend to love it if that happens. Assuming their leads do buy.

Yeah, sometimes they don't.

Then they're like, oh, it's gonna be something wrong. Show me some leads that bought. Like I don't know any.

Well, it seems like, I mean I've heard you say this many times and it's that chill. I feel like people don't chill long enough. They probably just expect. Yeah, through show ad I get buyer. Show ad, I get buyer. It's like, no bro, it doesn't work that way.

Oh yeah, yeah. I mean that seems to be a pretty common thing is people will set up an ad 24 hours later, go look at the ad and be like, holy shit, my cost per click is $7. Fuck this, I'm out. And then.

Yeah, I mean you didn't give it enough time to optimize, obviously. But also like you're saying most likely most businesses sales cycle is a little bit longer than they probably think it should be right.

Yeah. So what we're trying to move to, what we've kind of moved towards with our design and our visual display of the journey is showing people where the revenue occurred, what funnel point it is, so that you can then.

Constrain your targeting so that it matches certain spots, like steps in your funnel, because then you'll get higher ROI through the roof, if you can do that. And then also then you can feed the algorithms, the AI just on those funnel steps, and then they get really good and can take over. If you can hang in there long enough, if you're converting enough to hang in there, then you can get the big roi. The campaigns that run the longest make the most money because the algorithms figure it out.

As long as they're doing decent, they'll do really well over time. Not only from the repeat business, but also the algorithm gets smarter and smarter the longer you can let it run.

I think that just right there recently, at least for Matt and I, because still to this day, we don't have our tracking totally dialed in. That should change soon with wicked reports. But the whole thing is, I think the aha was the chill, but also how just sticking with it and how much more money you can make with something if you feed the algorithms, if you know your numbers more or less where they're coming from, I mean, your business can completely change very quickly.

Yeah, well, I mean, just from being the number. So in our business, I'm sort of the numbers guy. I'm also the media buyer for our business. So that's pretty much what my head is down, focused on every day. And, you know, I find it difficult to scale retarget ads because, you know, the retarget ads are only as good as how many people you can put in that audience. And the thing that I never really have a good idea on is what things are best driving people into that retargeting audience. Right. I know my retargeting ads work once somebody's on that audience, but I don't know, you know, we've got traffic coming from SEO, we've got traffic coming from Google Ads, ads, Google display network, Twitter ads, YouTube ads, Taboola, all this stuff. We have traffic driving in, and I'm just. My mentality is just as much traffic as I can drive into getting on this retargeting pixel and then let the retargeting pixel do the work. But I have a feeling I could probably save us loads of money if I knew which of those initial cold traffic sources led to that final retarget sale.

Yeah. Well, you could start if you had enough volume. You could have your retargeting audiences split up and include the UTM source equals Taboola, for example, and find out if Taboola traffic is shitty or ends up being good and then do the same for even if you just did it at the source. So if you had your six different sources, you could find out and then also possibly exclude your email list from those. And then separately retarget your email list on its own to see if it's really just your juicy email list or your podcast listeners. You got to segment them all out, which takes a little, you know, if you're doing all that, you'll know how to do that. We do in Wicked Reports. We have, you know, are they on my email list? But they haven't booked a demo.

And then.

Okay, have they booked a demo if they haven't bought? And then that's a different sequence, you know, that's a different retargeting campaign. And then I queue them up between email, Facebook and AdWords, so I'll be the same type of message for the week.

So does Wicked reports actually help you create the audiences for Facebook too, then?

We don't yet. We might get into it because after creating them, I realized, man, that's not very hard to do from the API perspective. I was kicking it around. I haven't decided yet. Not yet, though.

We can influence you maybe.

But I mean, just using Wicked without having to create, let's say, seven or eight different audiences based on the original cold traffic source. I could use Wicked. And Wicked would help me flesh out that data without needing to create all those different ad campaigns. Right. Or those ad sets.

Yeah, I mean, a lot. I mean, a lot of things I see too, when I audit accounts and I had this problem in our own account recently slipped by, was they're going to call traffic and they don't exclude their email list. There's a huge problem because then it's not really cold. So it makes you even think, oh, hey, it's going to work. So sometimes when you see those campaigns, they work, but like three, three days, they look kind of okay. Then they go to hell. Well, that's because, oh, yeah, some people in your email list maybe clicked on it and then now it's just pure cold and it's going nowhere.

Makes sense sometimes. Yeah. There's so much there.

So here's a question. I don't actually don't know if there's a good answer to this because it's probably different for all the different businesses. But has there been a sort of traffic source that has presented itself through all the data that's being collected? Has there been a traffic source that's been surprising to most people that use Wicked?

Well, I know Schramko had one that I had never heard before. His help articles, I couldn't believe. He tracks his help articles, which was awesome. And also he's like, they were one of his top sources, people that are clicking around on his help or his resources. That was a prime thing. So they put a lot of effort into those, I guess, and that showed, hey, keep doing it or do it, even double down on it.

Yeah.

The surprise for me is always that email still does really well, even though everyone just rips it. Everyone just wants to do bots. I mean, I'm an early adopter. I think bots are cool. But email still works was the biggest surprise, more than anything. I mean, but also the other thing is that everything's relative to your business, so you got to kind of got to get stats and try it out. You know, you see some guru or. I'm not a guru, whatever the hell I'm talking about. You say, oh, Scott said, this must be gospel. No, it's just been what's worked on the people I've seen. There's always going to be your unique moment in time with your audience that based on the way you're doing your message, that's why you got to track your own stuff, because it's going to be slightly better or worse. It's not like, like the Machine by Digital Marketer would download that email sequence, send it out. It worked for varying degrees depending on all sorts of factors. It wasn't an automatic win for everyone. It depended on who used it, how they applied it. So that's why you got to get your own stats to decide whether it's.

Working for you 100%. Now, another question I wanted to ask quickly as well is I want to touch on your onboarding sequence. In your business, I know you've got a pretty interesting way of onboarding people that's, that's different than, than you typically see. And you kind of already hinted at it earlier where you give somebody 100 bucks just for taking that step one. Could you kind of walk us through that a little bit and, and, and, and what people could expect if they're going to grab Wicked.

Sure. We overhauled it this spring and it's, you know, our, our churn went down 400%. So we knew it worked and what it Was is we were psychotically, obsessively, somewhat annoying.

If you didn't do what we told you. And the reason why is, you know, I mean, we're not cheap and you need to use the data to make a decision, or else why are you paying us? And so we first said, okay, we need them. And you see, we saw online, you know, I read a lot of. I was reading a fair amount about that topic because it was our onboarding. I didn't love it. And they all said, you need that aha moment. And I was like, well, that doesn't happen with Wicked reports the first day. Unless your activecampaign or soon to be mailchimp, your activecampaign or mailchimp, we can provide historical email revenue for every email you've ever sent. That's pretty awesome. You can say, hey, I sent email six months ago. I think it was good. We'll tell you after, like a day. So that's awesome. If you have one of those two systems that mailchimp functionality coming out in about a week or so. Activecampaign's already there. They have an incredible.

Well, by the time this goes live, that should be out. Then it will be.

Yeah, that'll be live. And so I was like, okay, we need. There's a delayed gratification because you gotta go. We have some predictive behavior stuff we can do in your orders, things that are cool, but it's not enough to make you stay. We need to know that you're gonna make a decision. So that's how we came about with a hundred dollars to make it. Submit a decision in 14 days. But then there were key steps that you had to do. And how it used to be was you logged it, you signed up, you watched a super long video, and then you had to go do it all. You know, that was like, they're not our customer support. People have to get on like two, three calls with people to make sure they even tracked anything, just because they'd be like, busy. You know, you buy it and you're busy. I don't want to watch this video. You had no idea what to do. Just log in and see, like, no data, and you get all irritated. With Wicked, that's how it was for like two years because we were busy doing stuff. And we just, you know, enough people were kept buying and staying on, you know, or like big wigs were like, yapping us up. So we figured we were all set. And then all of a sudden I looked at it. I was like, you know what we're not doing the best support here. So now the having people pick a focus and pick a strategy up front. Just then the. So I have all these checklists built for the customer success team, how to answer the different things. So then when they're talking to someone or when or the content we give them up front is based on what's their most important reason they bought and what are they doing in their marketing. So if you said I'm doing AdWords retargeting, well then we're going to help you. We're going to have you make a decision on your AdWords retargeting and make sure that's tracked, make sure you understand what you're looking at there. Because once you get one thing in Wicked, you kind of get all of them. But until you get one thing, you don't get any of it.

And so we had that 14 day. We have a countdown timer when you log in of how long you have left to get your 100 bucks. Because we almost need to. We run basically a deadline funnel on our customers to take an action. Because we know if they don't take an action they're going to be like, oh screw it. We just kind of embraced the reality and it's made a big difference. And then you can unlock, you get a one on one call with someone. We put it in the middle of the checklist. I think it's like a 12 step thing. One of them is like join our user group, one is install our chrome extension. Because we show the data inside of Facebook. If you're clicked on a campaign, we look and say what campaign it is and what date range and we show the ROI report inside of Facebook. It slides out in the panel. It's pretty cool. Yeah, well, we want to make sure you know some people. Oh, wow, that's cool. Hell yeah. Sure, we had it for three months. Ollie Bilson, he says like a bunch of Wicked accounts, he didn't even know. So I was like, shit. I was like, we're just gonna have people do it and have to check it off to get to their money. Yeah, like two seconds. But just so making sure you don't want to assume anything. And so that made a huge difference. But also if people aren't doing it, then we have auto emails going out. Hey, you haven't authorized like your CRM because if they don't authorize and pull in the data, we're dead. Our whole thing is reliable, verifiable data. Well, if we don't have your revenue data pulled in we can't help you anything. So we have to get that right.

I love the onboarding and that's. And I like that we're bringing it up here because, I mean, I would say It's a good 95% of tools that people invest in, especially if they are really committed to growing their business with that tool. Not just fly by night, you know, I'm going to try this thing, all right, cancel it in a couple months. It's like, no. If you're actually going deep on this thing, you want to know and be guided by experts to actually do it right from the day one. And I think just a lot of people just kind of lose interest after a week dicking around with the tool. You're like, oh, this looks like a really cool dashboard. It's like, no.

Yeah, we're not a dashboard tool.

Not a dashboard. I know. And I could see people just seeing like, oh, cool stats. Like, no attribution.

Yeah. I'm realizing it's more of a framework to approach your marketing.

Than it's a dashboard tool. So we never claim we're a dashboard tool, but at the same time, we struggle initially with our marketing to figure out what should we call ourselves without being 25 words. And we're still refining that. I think Data Driven Playbook is where we're headed.

I like that.

But then there's the platform part of it too. So I'm close.

I love that. I love that. Well, cool. I mean, we could probably talk about the tracking and all that stuff for hours on end and I would totally nerd out about it. Joe would fall, fall asleep, but I would totally nerd out about it.

I like the after all the nerd stuff, looking at what the results are and what to do.

But I do want to be respectful of your time. And we have a couple wrap up questions that we ask all of our guests and one of them is about books. Do you have any books that you tend to come back to once a year or you find yourself recommending a lot. It could be about the topic we talked about today or just completely different. We're always looking for ideas for new books.

Well, two spiritual books I like are the Course in Miracles and the Surrender Experiment. They'll totally potentially just change the way you view life. So I would be remiss not to recommend those. Nice business wise. You know, Rocket Fuel really helped.

That's a good one.

Yeah, Rocket Fuel really helped the E Myth. I've read that one probably five times and one you may not have heard A lot. Oh, crap, let me Google it. Because this guy by Robert Fritz. Oh, the path of least resistance. There's a book in life about that. And then the path of least resistance for managers. And his idea, which is genius, is that reason why people start to move forward, either in life or your business starts to move forward and goes back, oscillates back and forth, is because.

You don't have to set up a structure or a goal framework that's going to work. I don't think I did justice to that. Maybe we'll explain it different. Well, so a company will say, oh, we got to invest more in R and D. And then they'll invest more in R and D and they'll start to cook up some new products. But then they'll be like, oh, crap, now we need to make the number. This quarter we got cut R and D, and then they have no more new products or sales, says, we need more leads. You get a ton of more leads and, like, hold up. They make a bunch of sales. And onboarding's like, holy crap, we can't support all these customers. Slow down on the market. Slow down on the market. And so that happens a lot. And so what his premise is is you got to have one overall goal and then sub goals that have to support the overall goal.

Oh, I love that. That sounds right up our alley.

You've got to nest. Yeah, you guys are the flowchart. You got to nest your goals so they can't conflict with the higher goals. If I say, oh, we want Wicked reports, it's going to be $10 million company. Okay, well, that means 4,000 customers. So then if we're going to have 4,000 customers, we have a tech architecture that supports it. We have customer success. We have an onboarding. All those other teams have to consider that goal in their goals. Otherwise they might pick do a bunch of decisions that don't support it that we're going to have to scrap. And so it really helped me think. It panicked some of the team with the goals that we had. So it's like, well, okay, now, you know, we gotta, like, scale it. That made us, you know, build things differently.

It's essentially like what you do at Wicked is like, you know, you define the goal and then you kind of track the path, but know what's involved there. And this is just, you know, in the bigger picture as a company or life, like you said. That's cool. I like that a lot. Strategy and tactics combined. So wrapping it up, where can people go find you? And Definitely. You know, check out Wikipedia. Wicked.

Well, I'm. I'm on your podcast. We got wickedreports.com hustle.

Right on. Cool, man. Yeah, that's gonna give you. I think that pipes you to some good information. I know you guys have some help there too, to answer questions and get people kind of interested in seeing if they are qualified, ready to take the leap with you.

Yeah. And I mean, we're about to be customers. We're pretty much sold on it because I've pretty much aired my frustrations with tracking on this episode, and it sounds like we need Wicked, so for sure.

Awesome, Scott. Well, thank you, man.

Thank you. Thanks for having me. It was a great time.

All right, buddy. See you later.

See ya.

Hey, thanks for listening to the episode all the way. This was. It was definitely a masterclass in tracking and how to do it. You can do it yourself. Obviously there's tools to help you out. That is Wicked Reports. But those of you that might have not done tracking before, it could have been a little heady. Yeah, I know for sure. Like when I first got into analytics and attribution and all that fun stuff, I was like, oh, my God, I'm a guy. Yeah, I'm a guy. So luckily Matt is not like that. But the fact of the matter is that this Wicked Reports, whole suite, this, this massive software that Scott and his team has built has made it where it's best of both worlds. So, you know, you set up all the, all the tracking, you do everything pretty much what Scott was saying. The whole thing is that you can approach this now with an investigative eye with a question, you know exactly where to focus along this whole customer journey that really was invisible to you prior to.

Yeah. And I mean, just to reiterate the big, big, like, thing that the absolute game changing concept about this is, the whole, the, the whole attribution element I mentioned at the beginning of the show, mentioned it during the show, and I might as well mention it again at the end of the show. But if you have this traffic that has multiple touch points that came in through SEO, they saw a retargeting ad, they got on your list, then you mailed your list, and that drove more traffic. Well, how do you see that whole picture of how your leads came to be? How did they find you? How long did it take for them to find you? If you don't have that picture, you're probably throwing a lot of spaghetti at the wall and hoping some of it sticks. When you can use a tool like wicked, and by looking At Wicked, you can see, okay, this is my best cold traffic source that's landing on this retargeting ad that's opting in on this page. And you can start to pinpoint what the most effective sort of traffic elements are that lead to conversions. So once you have that and you have that data at your fingertips, it just becomes a complete game changer for your business. You can scale the cold traffic, you can scale the retargeting traffic, you can scale the list growth. All of it just becomes, you know, just a numbers game.

Yeah. And so if you are a business owner that you feel that you've struggled with just trying to make your ads profitable or really just making a profitable customer journey that you want to scale, if you feel like there's more in the tank, which most likely there is, definitely think about this, because there are some qualifications just to make it biggest and best thing for you. Scott was saying, for instance, if you're spending about $100 a day, 3,000amonth on paid ads, this is a very good fit for you because that you'll have some momentum, you'll have some stats and, and obviously have something selling or you want to be spending that money on ads where you can scale and actually get the data to prove it out. So definitely go to wickedreports.com hustle again, wickedreports.com hustle and then that will pretty much put you in. It'll give you a bunch of resources. They also give you the opportunity to chat with someone to figure out if it's a good fit and to give you some cool strategies as well. Their team is super cool and they're not like, overly corporate and all that stuff. You're actually probably going to talk to either Scott or one of his close guys on the team there. So it's super cool. This is the time to get in. So if you have any questions on that, definitely reach out to us and Matt, that's it.

Check it out. If you haven't already, go to hustle and flowchart.com that's where you can go to itunes. Subscribe, Review the podcast. We love it. We love you for it. And that really helps us grow and spread the word of the show. So I appreciate you doing that for us.

Thank you very much. Until next time.

Love you. Bye.

Love you too.