Steve Glaveski — Preparing For A Transition From Day Job To Entrepreneur

This is an intro. Intro, intro, intro.

Hustle and Float Shark with your boy.

My boy, Matt Wolf. Joe Fear.

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Welcome back to the Hustler Flowchart podcast. My name is Matt Wolfe. I'm here with my lovely assistant, Joe.

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He'll be helping us demonstrate some magic tricks today.

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I don't know. We'll find out as the episode goes on. We'll just open that loop and who knows if we'll ever close it.

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All right, so today we're talking with Steve Glovesky, and he's got an awesome book coming out or is already out, depending on when you're listening to this called Employee to Entrepreneur, you can find.

This in probably all the big bookstores and his website and obviously Amazon and.

All that stu out through Wiley Publishing, so it should be pretty much everywhere. He's also got an amazing podcast called Future Squared. And, you know, he's got two very handsome, talented, smart, amazing guests coming on. And at some point he's also going to have me and Joe on.

I like how you did that. That's good. That's good. I was like, you really think we're beautiful today? This is good. After a long day of podcast, I look my best, huh? Absolutely.

So what do we talk with Steve? What do we get into?

We talk about a lot. So his big. Steve's big thing is a handful of things, but he basically is breaking down how folks in the corporate world, anyone with a job, but you know, corporate's probably like the most, you know, the difficult to escape from how if they are feeling they can do more with their lives and they want to actually try to become an entrepreneur, small business owner, even on the side, he lays out all the. Basically the path to do that. Talking about pitfalls, if it's a good decision or not, how to test ideas quickly and actually get funding for those so you're not feeling like you have to, you know, basically drain your bank account. And a lot of mindset stuff it's super cool we dig into. Obviously, we always talk about podcast stuff. We have a podcast host on the show.

We're gonna ask them about their podcast always.

But what's really cool, and this is what something I love is his lemonade stand. I don't know if it's a foundation, but more or Less his project where he's helping kids.

Yeah, no, we're excited about that. Hopefully we can actually get involved with that over here in the U.S. steve's over in Australia, so making kid entreprene. We'll let him explain what he's doing there because it's really, really cool stuff. I also wanted to dig in on how he got involved with Wiley Publishing and he has a really good story there.

Perseverance, my man.

Yeah, just persevering. So really, really good stuff. Wide ranging conversation with a lot of amazing topics. The main key to this is a discussion on how you get out of that employee mindset and into an entrepreneur mindset to really just, you know, blow forward without the need for working for somebody else for sure.

And just a horrible segue over to our sponsor. It's not that horrible because here's the cool thing. I'm sure you've heard of it before, but you know, apprentices, 50 bucks a month. You can get 40 hours a week at GenM and get a little discount in a sec. But essentially what's really cool, and I was thinking about this as we were talking to Steve, is even someone starting out for the very first time can afford $50 a month.

Yeah. For a 40 hour a month employee.

Right?

Well, 10 hours a week employee. Ish.

Apprentice. Apprentice. But, but either way. Yeah, I mean, like, that's what I was thinking. I was like, dude, it doesn't matter what level of business you're in. Everyone needs help, especially in the beginning. And why wouldn't you want to start your best foot forward with a little bit of delegating? Like, because that's a mental, that's a mindset shift right there. I know it's difficult for us. Like it's hard to let go of the reins.

But you're also helping these people become marketing marketers. You're helping them get into a field, you're helping educate these people. You're helping them get immersed in the business that they're striving to be in someday. So it's a, you know, there, there's, there's a great cause behind it of helping people get into the marketing entrepreneurial world. It's an inexpensive way to get tasks done in your business. Um, it's just an all around great company over at GenM. So we do have a discount. You get $10 off if you go to evergreenprofits.com genmy that they're gonna hook you up over there. Definitely, definitely check that out.

And even if you feel like you're in a day or if you are in a day job, not feel like it, like check it out because I'm serious. Like you can get some help for next to nothing and help you kind of transition to that entrepreneur if that's you or if you already have a business. Obviously you know the value here.

Yeah. So now is it apprentices or is it apprenti?

That's a good question.

Cause cactus is cacti, right. And octopuses is octopi. Why is it. I guess. But those ended in S and this ends with ce so I guess it would be apprentices. Not apprentice. Printi.

Apprenti.

All right, let's go talk to Steve.

Evergreenprofits.com Jin hey Steve, we are live. How you doing?

I am doing awesome, my man. How you doing?

Great. It's early in the morning for you, right? Or starting the day, I think.

Well, it's about mid morning, 10:35am to be absolutely precise here. So joining you from Melbourne, Australia, of course. And man, I've been up since 5am so I'm ready to rock and roll.

You're a morning guy. I like it.

I am indeed. Although I have to say that every now and again I do afford myself the liberty of sleeping from beyond 5am to maybe 6am So I hear all this stuff from guys like Jocko willing. 4:34am Wake up, wake up, man. Sometimes you just gotta be kind to yourself.

True that. I'm actually, yeah, I'm actually reading what, Atomic Habits right now from James Clear. And for some reason in my head I was like, okay, I'm not naturally a morning person, but I want to creepily make myself a morning person like just one minute earlier for two months.

You want to do it creepily, eh?

Creepily. That's a scientific question.

That's one way to do it. That's one way to do it. Another one is go to bed with your gym clothes on if you want to work out in the morning. So it's one less hurdle you need to jump over in the morning.

I have a gym in my fricking garage in the morning. I'm like, never motivated. Never.

Well, there goes that theory.

Yeah, I know. Trying, man. Well, thanks for hopping on. I mean, you're doing a lot of stuff. So let's start with who are you? You got a cool background, you're doing a lot of cool things with kids as well. You have a book coming out next year, big publisher. So that's really cool. Interesting.

You got a podcast.

Podcast, yeah. So let's just start, I don't know, wherever you want to start, where you think is right. Let's go there.

Yeah, sure. I mean the 2004 view of who I am. My name is Steve Glovesky, as your guest would have gathered from the episode name, but I'm the co founder of Collective Campus which is a corporate innovation and startup accelerator based in Melbourn, Australia. But we work with organizations all across the world. We've worked with about 60 large brands like BNP Paribar and MetLife Insurance and then we've also incubated close to 100 startups in the past four years and helped them raise about $25 million in that time. Aside from that, everything I do as a person is all about unlocking people's laden potential to create impact. Because I was for many, many years a frustrated intrapreneur in the corporate world working with companies like Aston Young and Macquarie bank, where yeah, you had your six figure salary, yeah, you had your business class flights and you met all the definitions of success by society standards. But on the inside you're miserably comfortable. So now whether it's working with corporates, startups or kids as part of the Lemonade Stand program, it's all about helping people unlock that latent potential by doing away with a lot of society's sort of conventions, if you will.

I love it. Were you a corporate guy yourself then? It sounds like you kind of felt that pain.

Yeah, yeah. I mean I was there for eight years, so whether it was in financial audit roles, believe it or not, which is diametrically opposed to entrepreneurship. But with Ernst and Young, through to consulting gigs with KPMG and then investment banking with Macquarie Bank. And it's funny how I actually evolved to what I'm doing today because while I was in the corporate world I observed a lot of vacant office space. So like every man and his dog, I thought well, maybe an Airbnb for office space would work. Right?

Yeah.

And at the time I had no idea about startups entrepreneurship. This was going Back to like 2012. So all I did was I managed to find a Airbnb script online. I procured the services of a freelancer on freelancer.com to help me develop it. And for little more than two grand I managed to build a minimum viable product where you could list space, bookspace, pay online, all that good stuff. And I figured okay, so at this point I guess I've got a prototype, but I need people to actually be aware of it. So I thought hey, I'll write a Press release. So Google how to write a press release, put something together, and as you do, sent it to absolutely every journalist email address I could find. Right. And this was before the time of growth hacking tools. This was me jumping on Twitter, looking at people's profiles, pulling out their email address from the profile and adding it to a spreadsheet, and literally sending these emails one by one, rather than in bulk. And of the 100 emails, I mean, how many do you think actually got back to me, Guys?

I would say three.

Optimistic. That's a factor of three more than actually did. So one person got back to me. It just happened to be the Australian newspaper, which is one of Australia's biggest newspapers, circulation of several hundred thousand. And they wanted to publish a story about it. But before they did that, they said, hey, we'd love to do a photo shoot. And I thought, sure. And the funny story here is the photo shoot took place during my lunch hour around the corner from my office tower. And you've got this elaborate photo crew. And while I'm getting snapped all over the place, you have colleagues walking by looking at me all weird, thinking, what the. So that was fun. But long story short, that article dropped and it hit the Macquarie News, which is an email that gets distributed to 14,000 people. Because it did say that I was a Macquarie bank employee. And so my manager at the time tapped me on the shoulder, saying, hey, Steve, what's this all about? I basically said, oh, don't worry about it. It's just a little side project. I'm Macquarie bank till I die.

I'm pretty sure I was any person to ever utter those words.

But within three months of the article dropping, I had some investors get in touch and managed to raise about 150,000 Australian dollars on the back of that. And that was my ticket out of the corporate world. I basically went back to my manager, said, hey, not a side project anymore, and then devoted the next couple of years to trying to work this stuff out. And here we are about eight years later.

Was there some, like, big catalyst that you're like, okay, this just isn't working for me anymore. I got to get out of this life. Like, what was that catalyst? Was there, like, a pivotal point? Or was it just, like, just a series of things over and over again?

No, that's a really good question, I think. I mean, going back to childhood, I was always creative, always trying to take new things to the world, whether it was when I was 9 years old and I was a big basketball fan, but my dad wouldn't buy me one on one, which is a big basketball rag here. And I thought, well, I'm just going to make my own little magazine. So I draw little pictures of basketballers and write articles in there and all that sort of stuff. And later on in life, I don't look like it these days, but I was a big heavy metal fan and I opened a heavy metal nightclub on Friday nights. So I was always doing stuff. But when it came to my time in the corporate world, like I said, you had all the trappings, but on the inside, I guess I was miserably comfortable. And when I went to the office, particularly while I was at my last gig over at the bank, I felt like I was surrounded by people who were just doing the bare minimum to get by and get paid and not really questioning this, not really challenging the status quo, not looking to derive fulfillment from creating actual value. And I just needed to get out. And I guess Steve Jobs said something similar. You know when if you wake up too many days in a row and you look in the mirror and you think, I don't want to do what I'm going to do today, then you need to reflect and perhaps make some changes. And that's effectively what I did, dude.

Because I could relate. Matt and I have slightly different stories and I won't do the whole thing. But just being in an office space like that with a corporate kind of feeling. Exactly what you said. I just remember noticing so many people that are just slacking off. There's so untapped potential or they just don't see it in themselves or they know it's there or they're just not, they don't care. But it always blew me away and it literally did feel like the walls coming in, even though it's like a such a played out thing. I know the feeling and it's exactly what you're saying there. It sounds like it's crazy. There's so many people like that.

It's so crazy. And.

To me it just seemed like people were always looking to do whatever they could to avoid being blamed with something rather than just doing the thing, taking action and then if it doesn't work, taking ownership of that.

Yeah, extreme ownership. Yeah, man.

So. So you mentioned you were. Before we hit record, you mentioned that you were, you were in the startup world for quite a while as well.

So did you transition from like these banks in this corporate world and then move into the startup world? Like what was the sort of next evolution after you decided you're not going to be in this, this corporate bank environment anymore.

Yeah. So, I mean, after I managed to raise the funding on the back of the article dropping for Hot Desk, I spent a couple of years building out Hotdesk. And I learned pretty early on in the piece that building a two sided marketplace is about ten times more difficult than building a single sided marketplace, which is nowadays. I advise a lot of startups as part of our accelerator programs. And whenever I have a marketplace entrepreneur approach me, I basically say, look, I'm not going to tell you not to do it, but just be wary that it's going to be 10 times harder than a single sided marketplace. Because you not only need to get the business model right, you know, your distribution channels, your marketing channels, your value proposition right for one side of the market, you need to get it right for the other side of the market. And then it just needs to fit perfectly together. And getting that sort of getting those stars to align is incredibly challenging. But I did manage to build the supply side of Hot Desk up to about 12,000 spaces across Asia Pacific. However, the demand side is a different story. So I discovered very early on that what happened was with something like office space, you'd have people use the platform as, say, a discovery tool. They'd find a space, they'd use it to book maybe a day, maybe a week, but then if they like the space, they then negotiate with the actual vendor directly so you get cut out of the deal. Unlike Airbnb, where you're constantly, nobody books an Airbnb space for a week and says, huh, quite like this space. I think I'm going to buy it. So it didn't have that going for me. But one thing I also learned that was really critical, I think, and for any entrepreneur, I mean, after two years of building that up and we're making revenue of probably about 10k a month. So it was okay. I mean, I was literally just me and a co founder. But ultimately, you've got to really believe in what you're doing. And I mean, for me, I just felt like I was a glorified real estate agent and, you know, to push that big boulder uphill, as they say, you've got to really believe in it. You've got to be aligned with the purpose, otherwise you're going to give up. And that's effectively what I did. And that then evolved into the next thing, which is Collective Campus, which I've been doing for the last four years. And that's just been, you know, orders of magnitude more successful and more rewarding.

Let's get into that in a sec. But yeah, we could totally relate to the whole two sided business thing we've talked about. It's actually super. Matt and I are shaking our heads. We're like, what the heck? Because we batch record, we do multiple podcast recordings in a day and there's always a common thing. And we just chatted with the founder of Gin M, it's an apprentice site and he was literally diving deep into that model specifically.

Yeah. The many to many sort of marketplace model where you're not only marketing to people to feed the marketplace with.

Supply of whatever it is you're selling, you also need to market to the people who need what the marketplace offers. And so you have to market from two completely different directions. And we've been there too. Yeah. And we actually had a startup that we exited from that was in that space and that was what was difficult. We had no problem finding producers. The supply we just had. We struggled to get people to come and use the supply of people that we created.

Exactly, yeah.

And imagine the supply. They basically just could sign up to the platform. There was no revenue or no money being exchanged.

We got to money. Yeah. And it actually ended up exiting to Kodak actually. So it was, it was cool. I'm not saying Kodak's much didn't work.

Out long term for Kodak, but.

But no, it was making money. It wasn't substantial, but either way, yeah, it's exactly what you said. The supply side. It's like you could sign them up for free. Doesn't mean much until you actually make in revenue.

Yeah, it's just a distribution channel for them. So I think that's something that a lot of marketplace entrepreneurs need to be wary of. That growing the supply side does not translate to success.

Exactly. It's all the people saying I'm going to make the next Uber. Like hold on, hold on. Know where you're getting into. All right, so what did you transition into? You said collective. I forgot the other name.

Collective Campus. Yeah. So that's basically what I've been overseeing now for the last four years. And you know, we, as I said at the start of the show, corporate innovation and startup accelerator basically work with organizations to help them become more innovative, better at marketing, better at sales, better at business model innovation, all that sort of stuff. But when we started out, I mean this was just an idea and the way it came about was while I was building out Hot desk, I took up space at a co working space. Of course I booked it via hot desk and that's where I met my now co founder and he was running a small space in Melbourne called Queens Collective and General assembly, the training company, were using his space to run their classes. Now just so happened that as the that's about the time that I came to that revelation whereby I realized I need to be doing something that aligns with my purpose. I don't want to be a glorified real estate agent. I was thinking about actually taking all the stuff that I'd learned by devouring so much content on entrepreneurship, on innovation for the previous two years back into the corporate world where I could work with people who were frustrated entrepreneurs like me trying to get things done, trying to challenge the status quo, just couldn't do it. And because General assembly were leaving, my current co founder had a few spare classrooms. I basically just pitched him and said, hey, I've got this idea. I'm thinking of running something like a General assembly, but for the large organizations, let's run some experiments. That's what we did. And the experiments were really simple. It was something like an eventbrite page with a bit of a overview of what the class would entail. Free one hour workshop.

Promoted it via LinkedIn, spend a few hundred dollars on Facebook ads and as you do we got about 50 or 60 RSVPs thinking yeah, this might work. And I remember it vividly. You're putting out all the chairs, 50 chairs, nice and neat in a theater fashion. Got all your plastic cups out, some wine, some beer, some food, got the music going. Of course, being from Australia, it was a bit of AC DC just to get people into the post work spirit. And 6pm comes around and there's literally three people in the room.

You think, hey, maybe we'll just wait five or 10 minutes. They're all just coming in from the office. And that's what it ended up with on our first session. So that was a bit of a trial by fire, but it's all about persistence. So we started tweaking the ad copy. So instead of calling it lean startup for corporates, we changed it to rapid experimentation or rapid prototyping for large companies. Slowly but surely five people came to the next class, then seven, then nine. And after about three months of running all sorts of different classes, different topics to test appetite, we were able to land our first client, which was a, funnily enough, not even a large organization, just an SME, but it kind of went from there. So that business has evolved into not just training, but mostly running startup accelerator programs where we partner the domain expertise, assets and networks of large organizations with the talent, tech, and speed of startups to create new solutions.

Hmm. My big takeaway there is that you didn't stop, you didn't quit at that first event. You know, it's amazing what you've done. You've created, but you're like, oh, crap, three people. Okay, Most people just close up shop.

People would see three people in the audience and go, yeah, maybe we should rethink this business model. But, you know, you push forward and push forward and prove the concept, right?

Yeah, but I mean, that's key, guys. I mean, I'm sure you've learned this from many of your past guests as well, and in addition to your own experiences. But one of my favorite quotes was from Calvin COOLIDGE, the former U.S. president, who says that nothing can take the place of persistence. Not talent, not education, not genius. The world is full of talented people who didn't amount to much. But you've got to persist. I mean, you may be not as smart as the next guy, but as long as you're willing to show up and deliver a class to three people, as if there's 50 people in the room and just keep trying, you're more likely to. To break through than someone who just says, oh, I don't like discomfort or the adversity or the way this makes me feel. This is challenging my ego. I'm just gonna go back to what I was doing before, because that was way more comfortable.

That's the thing. Like, do you believe that's everyone has that in them, or is it like this certain entrepreneur trait that you just don't know how to, like, not stop? Or maybe you're too dumb not to stop? I don't know. I feel that way sometimes.

Yeah, like the whole blind faith versus reason thing, I guess. I mean, I've been doing a bit of research on this, and from a neuroscience perspective, apparently entrepreneurs to a certain degree are actually born. There's an article, there's a bit of research that came out of the University of Sydney recently called Red Brain, Blue Brain, which talks about liberal voters and conservative voters and how conservative voters tend to have a more hyperactive amygdala, which means they tend to avoid risk and tend to prefer the status quo. Whereas liberal voters have perhaps less hyperactive amygdala, which means they're open to novelty and trying new things. And this shows up in the corporate world, where managers tend to have a more hyperactive threat detection system than, say, entrepreneurs. So if you are to be a successful entrepreneur, I imagine it would go a long way if you were predisposed to taking a risk neurologically. And that goes back to running around the African Savannah with no clothes on, looking for our next meal. And I think some of us will find it really difficult to break out of that.

But Joe still does that.

Actually, he might be doing it right now.

Hey, I'm doing this podcast, Nico.

This is why Matt's the only one not.

This is why I was relieved that it's only audio because I thought it'd be a bit awkward if you guys put the video on, but.

Cut the video, Matt. Cut the video.

This actually reminds me of. I was listening recently to multiple but Jordan Peterson interviews on Joe Rogan's podcast. And he talked about very similar to what you're saying. He's like, if you have an organization that is maybe you're startup y, you want more of that blue brain. From what you're saying, it just sounds.

Weird when you say you want that blue brain.

But it's because you are going to take a little bit more risk, typically those types of folks. Whereas, like, if you have this business that's more or less matured a little bit or it's, you know, you've. You reached that goal that you wanted, then get a manager, someone in place with more the red brain. And that's exactly what you're saying, kind of backing up what you said.

Yeah, definitely. And maybe you could see a world where people get brain scans when they're being interviewed for a job and. Oh, sorry, you know, your brain isn't.

Blue enough, maybe, man.

Well, I mean, like, you've already got things like your Colby score and your Disney score and stuff like that. And we actually hire based on some of those assessments. You know, all of our team members have taken those assessments. So to a degree, we do that reading their personality.

Yeah, that's fair. You know, psychometric testing and all that stuff that organizations do, I guess is there to tease out some of these behavioral attributes that people have.

For sure. I want to transition a little to your book Employed Entrepreneur. I forgot your subtitle. It's coming out in January next year.

Yeah, coming.

Yeah. No, it's just. It seems like exactly what you're talking about. It'd just be a perfect segue to chat about what you're talking about in that book and probably we talk about in a lot of your talks too, is having that mindset, you know, is like that transition period, knowing, is this the right step for me? Is it not? What do I do?

Yeah, I mean, So I know we have a lot of listeners that are still in, you know, day jobs. Right. There's, we have a lot of people that are kind of on that bubble. They're working, but they probably do some stuff on the side and they're thinking about making that leap into just going all out, becoming an entrepreneur. And it sounds like that's what your book is about. So I think it'd be a good idea to kind of dive into some of the main points from your book and we can kind of, you know, dissect some of those topics a little bit.

Yeah, definitely. So the book, the subtitle is how to Earn youn Freedom and Do Work that Matters and comes out on January 9th. And I mean, I read this book because as we've already unpacked, you know, I spent almost a decade in the corporate world and now almost close to a decade in the startup world. So I've seen both sides of the fence and I've seen a lot of entrepreneurs try to make the transition successfully and many make it unsuccessfully. And there's certain things that I see, like common pitfalls that entrepreneurs fall into when they're coming out of the corporate world. Because if you've spent, say a decade or more in that space, maybe even less, you've got certain behaviors that will inhibit your transition. So for example, you probably suffer from a lot of paralysis analysis. You probably like to over plan, you probably like to outsource accountability and ask a lot of other people what they think and share your decision making with someone else. You probably move quite slowly. You're going to ask questions like, well, do I need to get my intellectual property sorted out and what regulation do I need to comply with? And you're going to spend a lot of time looking at Ibis world research and things like that. And the reality is that might work in a market where things aren't changing that quickly, where you already have a core business model that's making money and you've got the liberty of taking your time. But in the startup world, you're going to have very limited resources and moving quickly. Failing. Learning, adapting is going to be way more effective than spending your time inside the building doing a hell of a lot of research. That's part of it, but a big part of it is also determining why you want to do this, what you're going to do, and unpacking the mindset that someone needs to have if they're going to have a remote chance of success as an entrepreneur.

Yeah, so what's the you Know from your experience, when do you know someone's right to move on, to transition from corporate or whatever job they're in to entrepreneur? Is there some telling thing that you commonly see?

That's a good question. I guess the telling thing that I commonly see is.

People will exhibit certain behaviors. For example, whether they're trying to challenge the status quo inside a large company, whether they're perhaps working as part of an innovation team inside a large company, or they're perhaps just consuming a lot of content. For example, they might be listening to your Joe Rogans and your Tim Ferriss of the world. They just demonstrate that innate curiosity. They're not just going home and watching the new episode of the Bachelor or whatever reality TV show is popular at the moment. I think that curiosity is a big thing, but then also looking for people who have demonstrated some sort of resilience in their life and that they're comfortable coming face to face with hardship or adversity. And that could show up in different ways. I mean, they might be.

They might train in Brazilian Jiu Jitsu or something like that, and they might have had to learn the hard way how to not get choked out, which develops that resilience. So I think if you have resilience, persistence and curiosity, like those are three key attributes that underpin whether or not someone is ready to make that jump.

I love that. That's interesting. It's funny because I was listening to actually a Joe Rogan podcast episode and they were actually, they had this discussion and they were talking about how they feel like when you're an adult, if you didn't have to suffer through adversity as a kid, you're probably at a disadvantage once you become an adult. And so like, he was talking about how, like, all these, like, you know, middle class white kids, you know, they kind of, from a, like, become successful standpoint, they actually don't have a leg up because they didn't have to suffer through adversity growing up. And it's just like this, this really interesting conversation. I have two kids myself and, you know, I'm constantly thinking about how should I raise these kids and things. So it's like, do I go and present adversity to them so that they're better prepared when they grow up, or do I provide a nice, comfortable life form? You know, it's like, obviously we want, for our kids, we want them to have a great life and stuff, but just, it's an interesting rabbit hole to go down, I guess.

Yeah, definitely. And I mean, as parents you're always looking to perhaps make their life as comfortable as possible, but many don't realize that they may be doing their kids a disservice by doing that. And one of my guests last week on the podcast, his name's Peter Bregman, he's a thought leader in the leadership space. And he put this really succinctly. He basically said, if you can feel anything, you can do anything. And I thought that was just so profound because a lot of the times we hold ourselves back from, you know, going for that gig or just doing something that may make our life measurably better because we're scared of how it might make us feel if we fail. But if you're cool with that, it just opens you up so much more.

Yeah.

Yeah. So I'm gonna, I'm gonna jump back a second because you were talking about the pitfalls of the first timers a minute ago and you sort of succinctly described me back around 2007. Ish.

Right.

Like I remember I was working in the day job. Joe was actually working at the same company with me at the time. And I was every single day sitting around on forums, reading blogs, reading business books, thinking about, okay, what, what's my exit? What's the next best step for me? What, what path am I going to take to build something outside of this company? And it was paralysis by analysis. I mean, it, it took two years before I ever left that job. And I only left the job because I was kind of forced out of the job. It wasn't like a personal decision of, okay, now is the time. Some circumstances forced me out of the job, basically. So what advice do you give people who are in that situation? They're thinking about jumping out, they're thinking about starting that business, but they are stuck in that roller coaster that, that cycle of just too much studying, not enough action.

Yeah, I mean, the number one thing is test. Because by learning how to rapidly test your ideas, not only does it take you out of paralysis analysis, but it also helps you avoid doubling down on the wrong thing. Which are two things that I see. Two common pitfalls that I see are corporates trying to make the move into entrepreneurship make. Right. So one is that they just suffer from paralysis analysis because they're just scared of making the wrong call. Or they make a decision and it's the wrong one, so they jump to conclusions. They might hire a software development agency to build a full blown app with all the bells and whistles for 50 to $100,000, despite having not really spoken with any customers, then they'll take that to market and they'll just spend a year or two trying to push this big boulder uphill. But if they had learned how to actually determine what are the key assumptions underpinning an idea of mine, how quickly and effectively can I test that? And oftentimes there are ways today that you can test your idea for almost free, if not a few hundred dollars. Similar to what I said earlier with respect to, with respect to collective campus and just running some Facebook ads and an eventbrite page. Just test your ideas. And by doing that, you're gonna increase the likelihood that you're gonna double down on the right idea and avoid doubling down on the wrong one.

Got it. So kind of, so kind of take action at a sort of minimalist level as kind of like a side hustle before testing the concept, before sort of jumping all in.

Yeah, definitely. I mean, people will tell you that you need to focus in order to be successful, but I think you can focus on one thing at a time. And I've spoken to a lot of side hustlers who kick ass in their day to day core role at some organization, but then do equally well with their side hustle. So you can focus on one thing at a time. But.

I would not encourage people to just jump ship, especially if they haven't got the financial reserves to support themselves. Use your corporate job as, as a form of cash flow to support your side hustle. And it's funny because while we were building out collective campus, I mean the first six to nine months, I basically didn't pay myself anything, nor did my co founder. And I had what you might call a reverse side hustle, which is during that time, rather than just get rid of all of my savings, I basically got a two day a week gig with KPMG's innovation team. And anybody who spent about a decade in the corporate world, you're likely to have access to contracting gigs where you get a reasonably good hourly rate. And you might only need to work one day a week, but that should be enough to keep you going while you get your business off the ground.

That's actually a really cool concept right there because like with, with the knowledge that you have testing and doing all this research and all that, you can apply it to some gig like you just said there, find something a day, a week, fund, fund whatever you're trying to fund and you know, have that corporate gig still or whatever it might or you know, something. So because when I jump ship, I jump Ship without much in savings. And it was just more of a gut thing. Like, that's how Matt and I kind of differ is like, all right, I have this feeling. I know. I know the plan. I think it's going to work. My wife's making some money. All right, cool, let's go. And, yeah, and I figured, what's the worst thing that can happen? But I like your approach a little bit more.

I think there's a lot of merit in your approach as well, Joe. I mean, if you read a lot of military strategy, like.

Really big on burn your bridges, station your troops on death ground so that they have no choice but to fight, and in your case, that's effectively what you did, and you just had to go all in.

Yeah, and that's exactly what I did. Just made it work. Might have been different business models along the way, but that's fine.

One of my favorite quotes, I think it's Jim Carrey. I don't know if Jim Carrey was quoting somebody else, but it was something along the lines of, you can fail at the jobs that you hate, so you might as well go for the jobs that you love. Right. And that was kind of.

That was kind of one of those things that's always been in my brain, always is in my brain, you know, Might as well focus on the stuff that you love, because even the stuff that you don't love, you can fail at. So go for the shit you want to do.

But I think that's something that a lot of people perhaps don't even acknowledge. I feel like a lot of people conflate work with just something they have to do that is not enjoyable.

Oftentimes they just don't quite question the notion of that and actually say, hey, maybe I can actually do something that I enjoy that also makes me money and leaves me feeling fulfilled. So I don't think enough people ask that question, and too many find themselves just doing some job that they hate and just living for the weekend.

What are some other ways that you like or that you've heard others in the startup world? And startup, when we're saying it sounds like that's not like, hey, you got to go fund and raise a bunch of money, like a startup, like an Uber. But this could be like in your bedroom or whatever, if you need to. What are some other big cool ways that you could test quickly, like a new idea, something you want to go with?

Yeah, I mean, the obvious ones are really running some ads on, say, Facebook, LinkedIn, Instagram, perhaps not Instagram. Depending on what it is. But running ads that direct people to, say, a landing page. So your ad should speak to perhaps the problem that someone is trying to solve. So if I have, say, some kind of, I don't know, fintech solution around insurance, I might say, hypothetically, let's say the idea is all in one health management app. And so my target audience might be hospitality workers because they work long hours, haven't got time to take care of themselves. So I might run an ad on Facebook with a picture of a chef. I'll target people who work in that industry. And my ad copy might say something like, work in hospitality. Don't have time to take care of yourself. Click here. And you're just trying to gauge, based on the number of clicks, the percentage the click rate, whether or not this is a legitimate problem. And then people that click will go to your landing page where you'll just have a little bit more information on what the solution is. And at that point, you're trying to gauge how many people are going to sign up to, say, a free trial. And something like that could cost you 50 bucks to $100, and you'll get tens of thousands of impressions and potentially hundreds of clicks. And we've run similar exercises with hundreds of startups. We've run similar exercises with a lot of our corporate clients. And especially in the corporate world, they have such epiphanies when we got them through this, which it's not a new thing. This has been going on for years. I mean, the lean startup is all about this type of approach. But if you're one of these corporate employees who's thinking about making the leap and making the leap with a corporate way of thinking, you're probably going to go all in on your idea rather than just testing it up front. And this just changes the game for so many people and helps you avoid your own new Kirk moment, as I like to say.

I like that. And it's such an aha. It's. To us marketers, it's kind of like, duh, okay, run some ads. Yeah, yeah. I know Gary Vaynerchuk always says, like, if you have an idea and you're not willing to invest like 100 bucks in advertisement using the similar kind of approach, you just said, like, you shouldn't be in business. I mean, he's obviously very harsh, but still, like, it's the same idea, just throw some money at it. Everybody can scrounge up 100 bucks and test a new idea.

And 100 bucks will give you a ton of Amazing data like that. That data, that's a lot of data there for 100 bucks.

Even on Google too, we do that still to this day. We always test something new, about 100 bucks worth, see what people are searching for.

Yeah, I guess one of the things is some of the psychological vulnerabilities that people have is also they want to just feel busy and feel like they're taking action and moving the dial. And so the whole idea of running, say, a number of tests for a few weeks to determine what they should do rather than just going all in some people, it just doesn't sit comfortably with some people because they just want to be going all in, which oftentimes works against them.

Yeah. Now, on the intake form, when we were getting you on the podcast, you mentioned something about fast feedback loops. Is that kind of what you're talking about? The fast feedback loops would be running some advertising to test a concept?

Yeah, I mean, the fast feedback loops could be across anything. It could be testing a concept, a marketing channel, a sales strategy, customer segments, like all sorts of things. It's about getting that data as quickly as possible and determining as quickly as possible whether or not you want to move forward or not. And the fast feedback loops comes out of the world of military strategy as well. And John Boyd, who was a former pilot in the US Air Force, came up with this concept of observe, orient, decide, act. And that was best exhibited or best manifested in a story from the Korean War where the Korean pilots flew Russian or Soviet MIGs and the Americans flew F86 jets. And on paper, the MIGs were vastly superior to the F86s. But except for two fundamental differences, and I like to say those differences weren't Maverick or Iceman. The differences were that the F86 had a 360 degree bubble dome, whereas the MiG didn't have 360 degree vision. And the F86 had a fully hydraulic throttle, whereas the MiG had a semi hydraulic throttle, which meant that the pilots had to actually lift weights to move the plane. So based on this, with an inferior aircraft, the American fighters actually had way better vision and were able to respond much faster. So they had a much shorter, what they called OODA loop. So observe, orient, the side act. And so they were able to actually win the battle in disguise 10 to 1. And that was credited for being a big reason as to why.

Wow, that's actually really cool. I never knew that. And I love the Top Gun reference. Being in San Diego, this is where.

It was all literally just watched top gun like two weeks ago.

It's fresh. Apparently.

There's Top Gun 2 coming up.

Yes, they're filming it in San Diego also currently.

Yeah, I can't wait.

Me either, man. I love it. Tom Cruise is still going.

He still looks good, man. But Val Kilmer, I don't know. I reserve judgment.

I think he's going to be in the flick too. So we'll see.

So for the book, are there any other kind of big core pieces that we want to kind of pull out and talk about?

Yeah, I mean, one of the big core pieces is around productivity and really getting the most out of your time. Because if you're going to go into entrepreneurship the same way you manage your day in the corporate world or a typical corporate environment, then you're not going to succeed. So I've got a whole chapter in there on 10x ing your productivity. And I actually was listening to your show a couple of days ago and I heard that a few of your past guests had frameworks. Right. So I put together a framework just for the Hustle and Flowchart show. So this is an absolute world first framework. I call the framework P Codes. So visual mnemonic based around the jacket. And what P code stands for is basically prioritize, cut, outsource, automate, test, and start. I don't want to go through everyone in absolute crazy detail. I'll write a blog post on this and maybe you guys can add it to the show notes for listeners. But realistically, prioritizing is focusing on the things that are going to move the dial rather than trying to do absolutely everything cut by testing, as we've said, by having that tight OODA loop, you can cut stuff that doesn't work and start focusing only on the stuff that does.

O is outsource. So you shouldn't be focusing on $10 an hour tasks as Perry Marshall, the author, says should focus on 100 to $1,000 an hour tasks. Everything else, outsource it to a VA, get onto Upwork or Fiverr or one of these platforms and get that off your plate. The next step was Automate. So there's going to be countless manual tasks that you can automate. So for example, in our case, if someone signs up to an ebook on our website, they'll enter a mailchimp database. They'll then enter a drip feed. Then if they want to book a time with me or one of my team, there's an online scheduling tool. Throughout the entire process, there is no human interaction until we realize that someone is actually legitimately interested in our services so we don't waste our time on unqualified clients. Test, as we discussed. I don't think we need to go over that one. And then the last one was S for start, which is what are the things you can do to rev your engine or to start your engine? And so in my case, it could be that I get up early, go to the gym, have a cold shower, or it might be what can I do to start the engine of the company? What new things can I introduce to the organization, like growth hacking techniques and things of that sort that are going to help to move the needle.

So.

PCOats. Pea coats.

Pea coats. Love it. I like it. No, we would definitely link up that blog post, framework everything into the show notes. We'll make that easy to find. Thanks for doing that, dude. Are you a Wim Hof guy by chance?

I mean, I'm familiar with Wim Hof. I've listened to a few of his interviews on whatnot, on Tim Ferriss and everything else, but.

I don't even know where. I think it was actually the bulletproof coffee.

Oh, Dave Asprey.

Dave Asprey. Yeah. I think that's how I got into it. I've been doing it now for about two years and. And absolutely love it. I think it's not only the health benefits that come with it, but by starting your day with something that you absolutely, positively don't want to do. Particularly during the winter. The pipes are cold, the water's freezing. I think if you could just jump in and just overcome those little voices in your head that say you can't do it, kind of sets you up to face a lot of the other adversity that will show up during your day that we've alluded to throughout the show.

So I haven't done that before. How long are you normally in the shower for before you can't take it anymore?

Well, the thing is, you don't need to have your entire shower with freezing cold water. It's literally like the first two minutes. That's enough to get the health benefits, but it's also enough to get the mental benefits, I'd say.

Yeah, got it. So you freeze yourself and then you go and warm it up and get comfortable again.

Yeah, yeah. And then you'd be surprised just how much you appreciate that warm water once it.

I believe it.

Very true. I've done that for a while off and on and actually started recently, last couple of weeks, and it's freaking amazing, man. And then you combine it with some Breath work from Wim Hof. It's golden. I just heard the cold shower thing. I'm like, wait, hold on.

So, abrupt change of topic. I'm good at those. How did you get involved with Wiley Publishing?

Yeah, so how do we get involved with Wiley Publishing? So operating in the. I won't go too far into the backstory real quick.

In the space of corporate innovation, I like to say there's a lot of charlatans, so companies don't know what they're buying. So for us to get around that, we've had to create a hell of a lot of content, whether it's podcasts, ebooks, self publishing, books. By doing that, I've created a reasonable sized platform within that ecosystem. And so I thought, well, I want to take the next step because I did self publish a book called the Innovation Manager's Handbook, and I got it to number one on Amazon in its categories. And. And you know what? That's easier set, easier.

Done than you would think. If you have some basic skill around growth hacking and online marketing, you can get your book to number one. So whenever someone says, yeah, I'm an Amazon bestseller, I'm like, yeah, yeah, okay. But nonetheless. Yeah, exactly. But nonetheless, I thought, okay, I want to take this to the next level. And coming back to that mission of unlocking people's laden potential, I thought, how can I best do that? Well, I want to help people who want to make that transition into entrepreneurship from the corporate world. So going back to what we've discussed, sending out 100 emails and only getting one back, or just facing that adversity, or having three people turn up to a class. In this case, I went into it just knowing that I'm probably going to get rejected 50 times before I get a yes, maybe even more. But by virtue of my podcasting, I'd connected with a lot of authors, one of which was Tim Harford, who wrote the undercover economist and 50 things that made the Modern Economy. And he basically gave me a bit of a playbook for writing a nonfiction book proposal. So I went through that. It was about 10,000 words long, and I literally sent it to everyone and anyone, agents, publishers, you name it. And it just happened to be that. After 39 no's, Wiley got in touch and said, this is interesting, let's tee up a conversation. And then several conversations later, I had the book deal. But I could have given up after the first 10 rejections and thought, who am I kidding? I'm no author, but.

But you've just got to keep pushing Love it, man.

Why did you decide to go with the traditional publisher versus self publishing this one? Like you've done past ones.

Yeah, I think self publishing, there is still some kind of stigma associated with it. I would say, like no one really. I mean, you can still gain access to scale and get your book into the hands of people all over the world. Definitely. But in terms of the reputation, the status, the being taken seriously, I don't think it's quite there. And so the whole notion of having a real publisher on board who's going to get my book into bookstores across the us, the uk, Singapore, Australia, I think that goes a very long way. And it's also, I think having a book published by publisher has also galvanized us to really like 10x, if not 20x. The marketing that we're doing for this book, appearing on awesome podcasts like yours and doing literally like 79 other things. And we'll see how it goes. But I think from my personal perspective, it's perhaps one of the best things I can do to try and create as much impact as possible.

I love it. And yeah, it kind of forces you to uplevel what you do day to day, you know, the PR factor, the marketing, all that stuff. Reassess how you're using your time. So I love it and I'm now it's in my head. We'll have to think about our big publishing deal. It's yet to come. Yeah, let's see here. Well, I want to make sure that we're good with time here.

Let's see.

I wanted to touch on superfast eliminate stand and just describe that super fast. I think it's near and dear to Matt and I's hearts. We love kids and we love actually teaching them entrepreneur type stuff or just a different way to, you know, a different way to educate them in the real world.

Yeah, definitely. And I think, you know, if you look at classrooms today, a lot of schools are running mindfulness training or resilience training, but I think a lot of that stuff is kind of like philosophy. You don't really seek it out until you've gone through hardship and you're kind of asking questions. So I think one way to teach kids some of the key attributes or key skills they're going to need going forward, like critical thinking, adaptability, resilience, you know, coming face to face with adversity and being fine with it is through entrepreneurship. So Lemonade Stone is basically children's entrepreneurship program we've developed. It's a two day program where kids identify. Well, we start by asking them, what problem do you want to solve rather than what do you want to be when you grow up? Which supposes that there's only one thing that there will be, when in reality, with things changing so quickly, there'll be many things. So they start with the problem. We teach them to come up with solutions using a number of tools. They then build prototypes, they leverage the lean startup methodology, and at the end of the program they pitch their ideas. But they're actually building, many cases, live websites, they're running ads, they're getting people from all over the world to visit their site. And these kids are as young as 8 years old. And, and yeah, once they see that, wow, someone from India visited my site or someone from the US visited my site, and this is a kid in Melbourne that just opens their eyes to so much possibility. And you know, we've had a number of kids come through the program. We've had a thousand kids, close to a thousand kids come through the program in Melbourne, Sydney, Brisbane and Singapore. And a number of them have come through and they're now running businesses where they're making in some cases a few hundred to in some cases over a thousand dollars a month. And we're now building the online version. We've actually just developed version one, which we'll be releasing early next year, into schools and seeing where that goes. But I mean, for me that's so critical because the world on the outside of schools is changing so much, yet what kids learn on the inside hasn't really changed in 100 years.

That's. Yeah, that's crazy.

Yeah.

Both your kids are just starting school.

Yeah, yeah. My son's in preschool and my daughter's just now in kindergarten. They're very, they're very four and five, basically. So they're real young. But, you know, I want to instill those lessons into them as much as possible. So, you know, maybe, maybe I don't have to create a ton of adversity for them growing up, but at least I can instill entrepreneurial wisdom on them.

Yeah, yeah, I'll make it hurt to get back to you in two years time, Matt.

Sounds good.

Yeah. There needs to be something like that in the States. And Yeah. Because Matt and I have tossed around ideas, didn't have total structure, but it's exactly, at least the end game of what you're getting at with yours. So maybe we'll reach out and figure out if there's a way we can.

Bring that to the U.S. yeah, franchise it.

Out over here, whatever it takes. It's all big win overall, very cool.

So the only other rabbit hole I want to go down with you was to talk about your podcast for a minute and just kind of ask what was your intention in creating the podcast? And sort of, what is it? What have you gotten out of it so far?

Yeah, great question, and not one that I was expecting at all, guys.

So the podcast, I mean, initially it just kind of happened by chance. I mean, we were recording these webinars and we thought, hey, let's just put them up on Apple podcasts and see what happens. And we actually got some really quick traction and we ended up on New and Noteworthy. And I had no idea what that was until someone pointed it out to me. And suddenly we had thousands of people listening to these webinars. And I thought, okay, well, maybe I should rethink what the format is. And so it's become more of a more or less like this, like Q and A, interviewing a lot of thought leaders. And I've had access to amazing people and that's perhaps the first thing. One of the benefits was access to people like Kevin Kelly. Adam Grant interviewed Nick Wall, who's like one of my most admired. One of the authors and journalists I admire the most. He's been in the rock music game for four decades. Gretchen Rubin, author of the Four Tendencies and the host of the Happier Podcast, the list goes on and on and on. But access to people and building those relationships has been key. I mean, I mentioned earlier, the relationship I built with Tim Harford was key in getting that book deal. Building that platform through the podcast was key in getting the book deal. But the reason I really jumped into it was to just again, stand out from the crowd in this crowded sort of corporate innovation space. And by hosting a podcast, I was able to put myself forward as a thought leader, share my thinking, and show that I've actually put critical thinking into this space of corporate innovation and startup development. And by virtue of that, we've done a lot of deals on the back of people who've listened to the show. But it wasn't just like, hey, we listened to one episode and hey, here's a six figure check. It was more. So I listened to your podcast for a while. I then downloaded some of your resources on your website. I read your emails every now and again. This opportunity came up in the business and your name came to mind, so I thought I'd reach out. Then several meetings later, you do a deal, but that's been part of it. And Ultimately, as you guys would appreciate, it's just a hell of a lot of fun.

I mean, we've mentioned Joe Rogan a couple times in the show, but he always talks about the fact that in today's society, we very rarely take the time to have a proper conversation with someone. It's usually just really surface level. So I'm sure after this conversation, I'll just be buzzing for the next couple of hours because. Because I think I derive a lot of energy from these types of conversations, and I feel like in many ways we've lost the art of it in society.

I love it. And exactly what you just said is why we do what we do. Why the podcast is our favorite part of the business and 2019. Our goal is to just strictly focus on not only this podcast, but maybe some other side project. Podcasts.

Yeah. There may or may not be some other podcast concepts in the works from us because we just love the medium so much. And you mentioned something really important, too, that most people skip over because a lot of people talk about podcasting as a business model or as. As, like some. Like a way to make money. Right. If you're approaching podcasting as a way to make money as a business model, you're probably going to struggle. But the podcast is not only us three having a conversation together, but there's another ear at the end. There's another ear on the other end. Set of ears. Ideally another set of ears on the other end listening into this, enjoying this conversation. Now, Joe and I release two podcasts a week, and they're usually about an hour plus per episode. So that's two plus hours per week that people are spending with us. Do you think that those people are going to be some of your hottest leads, your hottest customers, your, you know, the people that, when you have a tool or a service or a product to recommend, the ones to be most likely to jump on it, they're spending. Spending two hours a week listening to us. You know, and that's what a podcast provides. And yes, it may not be on the first listen or the second listen or even in the first two months of the relationship, but the people that you. That we're building this relationship with right now, who are listening in are the people who a few months down the line are gonna be like, those guys have given me so much value, I'm ready to spend money with them, definitely.

And I think a lot of people focus a little bit too much on the vanity metrics like number of downloads and number of people who are liking my Facebook podcast page or whatever it is. But you've got to look at the substance behind those downloads and who's actually listening. And if you're selling B2B and you're selling, say, a software product that's worth, say $1,000 per client or $5,000 per client, like, you don't need a million downloads, you might only need 20,000. So long as they're the right type of person listening, you'll make a lot of money doing that. And don't get preoccupied with trying to monetize the listens. I mean, if you have value to bring like you guys do, you're going to monetize a lot of those serendipitous opportunities that come from people listening to your show.

Yeah, absolutely.

All right, man. Oh, well, you know what our other question's going to be, right?

Go for it.

I just love to the listeners sometimes stuff them. So what's a book or some kind of resource? Usually it's a book. Yeah, there you go. See something you recommend often?

Yeah, look, obviously apart from my book, one of the books that had a big influence on me back when I was starting my journey was Tim Ferriss Four Hour Work Week. Because it just did expose me to a lot of concepts and just changing my perspective on how I saw the world and trying to break out of some of that corporate mold. But the main thing I took out of that was his whole notion of muses, which is all about testing different ideas. So I'd say the Four Hour Work Week. But aside from that, I mean, the methodology is one thing. What's absolutely critical to success in the entrepreneurial domain is persistence and mindset. So books that really helped in that space for me was Carol Dweck's Mindset From a philosophical perspective, Marcus Aurelius, Meditations, and then I'd say those three books. So Mindset, Meditations and the Four Hour Work Week.

I love them all. Yeah, Meditations, Marcus Aurelius, that was the most eye opening or brain opening thing. It's just like the whole feeling of like, stop caring so much about the outcome. Just, oh, yeah, do your best, man. Like, give value.

I love, I love Ryan Holiday's work because Ryan Holiday, I feel like he takes a lot of the stuff from guys like Seneca and Marcus Aurelius and sort of brings it into sort of he can give more modern analogies on.

The same concepts, the Daily Stoic.

And I think, I also think Ryan Holiday has done amazing things that happen, have raised awareness again towards Stoicism. So, yeah, I Just I want to give a shout out to Ryan.

And ego is the enemy. And the obstacle is the obstacle. I think the obstacle is the way has been adopted by a lot of NFL teams. So, yeah, yeah, it's. It's pervasive. And anybody who's doing anything that requires overcoming adversity should pick up that book.

100 man. Well, January 19th. I know I'm going to pre order this, but employee 9th. Oh, sorry.

Not.

Sorry. 2019.

January. Yeah. So employee to entrepreneur, how to earn your freedom and do work that matters. It's going to be good. And definitely pick it up, pre order it. Where should they go to go get that?

So they can go over to employee 2 entrepreneur IO and on that website, they'll also find a hell of a lot of free resources. We've got a bonus bundle with tips on how to 10x your productivity growth, hacking tips, sales tips, marketing tips, all sorts of stuff. But yeah, they can also find links to pre order the book that they like.

Cool, man. And we will also link up that blog post worksheet, the peacoats that you mentioned, and I'm sure that'll take them over there, too.

Fantastic.

Thank you, Steve. This has been fun.

Thanks, Matt and Joe, it's been a pleasure.

All right, buddy, we'll see you later. Bye.

Cheers.

All right. Thank you. And I hope you just enjoyed this episode you just listened to. Now, right now, before we sign off, I have a few things I would love for you to do. So the very first thing is to go find our guest on Facebook and tell them that you loved their episode with us. That's going to help them just feel good about themselves, but also it's going to spread the word a little bit more for us. So go find them on Facebook. Everybody's on Facebook. And go say that you love their episode and maybe one cool thing that you learn there. The second thing is to go to itunes and subscribe to our podcast. Just look up Hustle and Flowchart and hit the subscribe button. And the very last thing, the third thing, is to leave us a review on itunes or wherever you're listening to this podcast and help us spread the word more. That's how more people are going to get this awesome knowledge, this, this cool podcast training, and a whole bunch of other cool, free training that we give out@evergreen profits.com. so that's about it. Go find them on Facebook, go subscribe on itunes and leave us a review. You would be amazing. And if you did that, but you're always amazing. So thanks for listening, and we'll catch you in the next episode.

You're awesome.