StoryBrands: Frameworks to Make Marketing Simple with Dr. J.J. Peterson

The hook of the story. The reason we start paying attention is because there is a problem that the hero experiences and we want to see the rest of the movie if they're coming, if they're going to overcome that problem. The principle for your marketing is you need to talk about your customers problems over and over and over again. That's the only reason they're paying attention. If you don't talk about their problems and that you can solve them, they won't pay attention to your marketing.

Hey, I'm Joe Fear and welcome to the Hustle and Flowchart podcast. This is where we talk all about building businesses so they give you the freedom and fuel for your life. I'm not here to help you build a billion dollar business, but I am here to help you create a business with systems that work for you so you can make more money than you need just by working part time. You know I was a chronic Hustle mode kind of guy and I want to share my experiences and mentors I've met along the way to help you reframe things to be the most effective effective as an entrepreneur. I wish I had this guidance and insight when I was younger. So that's what I'm doing here for you. Please share and enjoy.

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Doing great. Thanks for having me, Joe.

Of course. Yeah. So I like, we were just talking about where before hitting record and dealing with all the fun tech of podcasting remotely talking about your book, you know, and this was you. You reminded me this came out during when the World Shut down time Marketing Made simple that you wrote with Donald Miller.

Yeah, it was one of those crazy things. It's like it's my first published book, you know, so you're so excited about it, getting ready to launch it a whole new way. We had a whole campaign build up around this. It was kind of a more of a silly way of we of doing it where we printed dollar bills, you know, with my face and Donna Miller's face on it. And we send them out to all these influencers and we're like, talk about how this book is going to make you money. Because that's what I mean. We knew that if people actually implemented the principles that they'd make money. So we were like, you know, throw money in the air, be silly about it. And then the book came out the Tuesday after the world shut down. So like when we actually went down into like the world shut down, we were mandated at home. Two days later our book came out and we had to tell everybody, do not throw money up in the air and associate our brand with.

Wouldn't be the greatest. Best look at the. At that time.

No. And so we still ended up, you know, it, it did well, it ended up on, you know, the Wal Journal and Washington Post bestsellers, but. Or not Wall Street Journal, Washington Post bestsellers and, and USA Today, but it was one of those things we're like kind of crushing, you know. But the reality is, I mean, in the grand scheme of what people have had to deal with over the past few years, that very, very minor. Very minor.

Yes. I mean that's the thing is though, if you can get your hands on the book, it literally was one of these. And I don't know how it got on my radar. I mean, I read, you know, Building a Story Brand by Donald Miller, which is in front of me here too. And I just remember the simplicity and the frameworks and how everything was presented. I was like, okay, this is cool. For like any marketer, anyone. That's. Even if you're the most savvy marketer likely, you probably Complicated stuff way too fricking far. Where you need to back to the basics, right? Like the framework.

I mean I. So I have been in the marketing world for a long time. My undergrad degree was it and my very first job was I worked for a nonprofit and my job was to do fundraising and marketing for this nonprofit. And this nonprofit did amazing things. I mean it did a lot of like rescuing people during floods and building homes and building hospitals and building schools and was literally saving people's lives on a daily basis. And here I am, this kind of punk kid, green, you know, right out of college and I'm trying to convince and encourage people to donate to what literally, like literally every dollar that was spent went to saving lives. It was kind of insane. It was an amazing organization. And I struggled, I really struggled for how I always felt a little guilty about how to. That I was asking people to give money and I felt like I was bothering them too much if I sent out emails and you know, when I had a bl blank website that I had to then all of a sudden create from scratch or a new tagline, I'm like, I'm if this doesn't work, people die. I mean it was kind of, that's, you know, in my mindset, that's where it was. There was a lot at stake. You know, being a 24 year old kid and doing this and, and I learned some tricks along the way during that. And then ultimately I ended up teaching a lot of people. I ended up teaching marketing and communications and I'd been kind of in that world in. I did some documentary storytelling, I did some marketing. Story and marketing were always kind of my buzzwords. And, and I even, like I said, I taught it at multiple universities. And then when I discovered storybrand that Donna Biller wrote the story brand framework, it changed everything for me because all of a sudden I was actually, to be honest, a little pissed because I'm like, I've been studying and doing this, I have a PhD in this. And you figured out a way to say everything I've been trying to do in the most simple way possible. And I was like, I want to dedicate my life to this. I mean, genuinely. I moved from California out to Nashville and have been working with companies ever since, helping them create clear messaging and clear marketing. And the. I think what you said is exactly it. So many companies overcomplicate their messaging because like what I felt when I was 24, there's a lot at stake in your marketing message, emails, website that if you don't get that right. People don't keep their jobs, not just you. But like if the company doesn't grow, a lot is on marketers shoulders. And when I discovered how story and when you understand how story works and how if you can use story properly in marketing to create a clear message, then it actually takes all that weight off your shoulders and you no longer become the kind of person who is pushing things at people. You're actually inviting people into a story that they get to be the hero of. And you're actually communicating in a clear way that helps people get access to products and services that will make their life better. So really when you create a clear message, when you do it simply, what you do is you're actually offering a gift to your customers, giving them an easy access to products and services that actually can change their lives.

What's literally changing their lives could be saving their lives. Like I'm currently working with a doctor who's double board certified in basically trauma healing and stress. So she keeps reminding me, she's like, we're literally saving lives. Yeah, damn right we are.

And if we use that metaphor and what you just said too with the nonprofit, it's why wouldn't we apply that to our businesses? We're choosing to create this expression and help people and we're paid via dollars, which shows the value that we're putting out into the world. The more we get paid, the more value. It's that reflection and obviously simplified. But then we get in our heads for whatever reason or the blank page like you said, or we, we start to think of our own guilt, you know, all the emotions, all the feelings that we, the feels that we put on ourself that then we apply to others stop us in our tracks to really put our best stuff out there. Right?

Yeah. And so what we do at storybrand is we go in and we actually help people clarify their message using a story framework. And what the big paradigm shift that we teach people when it comes to creating marketing is one, it needs to be really simple. It needs to be simple and clear. And the best way to do that is to position your customer as the hero of the story, not the company. So most businesses are often trying to figure out how do I talk about us and how, how do I make us look good and all this stuff. And the reality is you actually don't want you, you talk about yourself, but only in the context of your customer story. And so that's, that's why for me it's a much gentler way of approaching marketing. And when you understand how story works, it's actually formulaic. You don't have to be this crazy. Crazy, like creative. You know, Steven Spielberg is, you know, kind of person to create these wild stories. No, when you understand the simplicity of story and how story actually works, then you can actually create great marketing that actually connects with your customers.

We talked about some of the things that people get wrong. It sounds like. Yeah, they get themselves in the way they're talking about themselves as the hero. I think that's a pretty big one. When we start to frame the other person, the avatar, whatever you want to label them, things change, I feel like, in our mind. So walk me, I guess, before the framework, because I really want to hear, like the simplified story arc. But then before that, can you just tell me maybe some of the key components that either people get wrong and that we can flip to? Like, here are the key things that you really should reframe in your mind before we then apply the framework.

Yeah. The first piece is that most people start when they think about marketing in the place of creative and clever. And I think you need to start in the place of thinking. It needs to be clear. Clarity will beat out creativity and cleverness all the time. So you, because you can have this crazy campaign, but if nobody understands what you actually do, how they're supposed to get it, how it makes their life better, then your competitor down the street, who might have a worse product than you, is going to beat you in the market because they are communicating more clearly. So the first thing I always say is think in terms of clarity first, then add creativity and cleverness. But that's like the biggest thing. When I walk in with a company, they have these great taglines, and I'm like, your tagline doesn't mean jack. It really doesn't. If people don't understand what you actually offer. So that's the first place. Start with clarity. Then the way that that story becomes clear to your customer is if you make the story about them. And the easiest way to make the story about them is don't talk about your products and services. Talk about your customer problems. What problem are they experiencing? Because the only reason anybody buys a product or service is to solve a problem. If they can solve it on their own, they're not paying for it to. For somebody else to do that. But if they have a problem that they can't solve or can't solve as easily or as quickly or however it works, then they're going to come to you. So if that is what is driving the purchasing power. Instead of saying something like, let's say you're a lawn care service. Instead of saying things like, we are the best lawn care service in town. We have the best lawn care. Instead, your messaging should be about, like, are you tired of your lawn not looking as good as your neighbors are? You are. Do you. Are you missing the tactics to make sure that your lawn stays green all year long? Right. You're. Are you spending more time working on your yard than enjoying it? That just. I'm asking questions. You don't always have to ask questions. But what I'm doing there is I'm actually positioning the story to be about the customer, not about us. And when you do that, that actually wakes up the mind of your customer and makes them pay attention. And so those really. Before we even get into the story arc, when you can start shifting your paradigm in how you think about marketing is, first, you want to think clarity over creativ, and you want to think customer over us. The customer is the hero of the story, and the best way to position them as the hero of the story is to talk about the problems they're experiencing that your product solves.

It's like the 80 20, if not 9010 of everything right there. That goes. You have a conversation. It goes with podcasting, asking questions. I mean, that's the thing is. Yeah, you ask questions, you start to get into their world and. And you get the nodding effect or, you know, like that agreeance. It's kind of nlp, right? Like, it's. It's carrying people along the journey that they are already on. You're just kind of meeting them where they are, I would imagine, then also, as part of this story, is show them what's possible right.

In the story side of things. In the story framework. What we talk about is that in every. In every movie and every, you know, book that you've ever read, every movie you've ever seen, there is this climactic scene. There is a moment when the hero wins the day, and we're all rooting for that moment. And we're also fighting and hoping against them to fail. And both of those things have been forecast in the story. What success or a happy ending is gonna look like and what tragedy or failure will look like. So those have been forecast through the story. And we know, like, we're going. We're hoping that the girl gets the guy and they kiss on the mountaintop or the bomb gets disarmed, and everybody, you know, we're. Or like, the person gets the. That moment to tell off the boss who's been the bully the whole time. You know, we're rooting for that moment, both the positive side of it and rooting against the negative. Now, what often we lack when it comes to marketing in telling a great story is forecasting that climactic scene. In our marketing, we have to talk about what our customers will experience after they use our product and service and talk about what pain or failure they avoid if they don't. So if they don't, we have talked about if they don't buy a product, what their life will be like, and if they do buy our product, what their life will be like. And that forecasting, we call that success and failure. And what that looks like in many ways, just very simply is the mistake that a lot of companies make is they talk about the features of their products or their services. And really, you always need to be associating the features of your product or service with the benefits of your customer. Highlight the benefits. So if they. Even when somebody say, hey on your website, like, hey, so book a call. And a lot of times what they'll say is, book a call so we can learn about you. No, what is the benefit for them? Even just very simply the benefit for them of booking that call, Are they going to start relieving stress? Are they going to be known themselves? Are you going to take away any doubt they might have? Are you going to make sure you're a good match so that they're not wasting money? Even that? We just go, well, call us and we'll help you. And it's like, no, we actually need to forecast that climactic scene for them and what success looks like. And that's one thing. When I work with a lot of especially technical companies, they're like, well, we have this polymer and we're using this trademark and we're doing all this stuff. And it's like, okay, what. But why does that matter to your customer at all? You're. When you talk about those specific features of your product, you're making yourself the hero. Unless you associate each of those features with a specific benefit for your customer. Now you're positioning your customer as the hero.

That's great. And I love that framing. And you know, what I've learned over the years is get out of the nerd speak. Get out of the technical talk. Even if you have a technical audience, you still were emotional beings. We're all humans at the end of the day. And as you. As you said, we're going to have. There's going to be struggles either way, but we want to make one of the paths look like there is this big climax, bigger win. Because either path you take, I mean, which you'll break down, I'm sure in the, in the framework, there's some down, there's some lows, there's some hard times. But as long as we're progressing upward, one of those directions we present to them and show them as the hero along that journey, then, yeah, we could forecast, hey, this is a better win for you.

Yeah. And so like I said, what we do is we go in and we work with companies and help them create talking points that really help them position their customers the hero and do it in a way that's so clear that their customer doesn't have to do any work to figure out what it is that you offer and how you make their life better. And the way we do that is we do it with what we call the story brand framework. And the framework is based on ancient storytelling techniques that go all the way back to Aristotle and Plato, but also, like, are still used in blockbuster movies today. And that is that every good story at its most basic elements has to have seven pieces to it. Seven, almost like plot points along the hero's journey that make the story interesting and clear. And again, we're getting back to that, like clarity, clarity, clarity. And then position the customer as the hero. And these are the seven elements. So every story has to have these seven. And the first one is that first. The first is you have to know in the story who the main character is. And what they want has to be really, really clear. What that means is that like, Jason Bourne wants to know who he is, like what his past is. But if the story is also tries to include that Jason Bourne wants to open a bakery and he wants to train for a marathon and he wants to just find himself by traveling around world, then not an interesting story. We're confused, we're gone, it's out. So we're we the hero. We need to know, to be engaged as an audience in the story that we need to know what the hero wants. How that applies to marketing. Is your customer as the hero want something. And in order for them to identify you as part of their story, you need to very clearly articulate in, in your website, in emails, in your elevator pitch what it is that you offer. So often when I work with a company, they'll say like, I'll go, so what do you do? And they go, well, we help people Find fulfillment. And they're thinking they're kind of being grandiose and, you know, big. And it's like, okay, but what do you do? What do you actually do? They're like, oh, we actually, we do financial planning. Great. Say that, say that. Be very clear and obvious about what it is. And it can't be vague and it can't be, it can't be multiple things. Has to be one thing. The second principle in storytelling is that once you understand what the hero wants to make the story interesting, the hero has to encounter a problem. So if, if, you know, Liam Neeson gets to a point where his daughter's kidnapped again for the 10th time and he's going to go rescue her, but all of a sudden we find out 10 minutes into the movie that it was a prank and they spend the rest of the movie walking around Europe shopping and looking at colleges. Not an interesting movie. The hook of the story, the reason we start paying attention is because there is a problem that the hero experiences and we want to see the rest of the movie if they're coming, if they're going to overcome that problem. The principle for your marketing is you need to talk about your customers problems over and over and over again. That's the only reason they're paying attention. If you don't talk about their problems and that you can solve them, they won't pay attention to your marketing.

I'm going to pause this really fast and shout out another podcast that's on the HubSpot Podcast Network, the audio destination for business professionals. This one's a podcast hosted by someone I've followed for years. I've read his books. His name is Donald Miller and he hosts the podcast called Business Made Simple. The whole premise there with that show show is that it helps take the mystery out of growing your business. And one of the recent episodes is one with Alex Hermosi, someone else I followed for years now. And it's all about talking about the uncertainties that we're living in right now in 2024 and beyond. But how we can take our business and shore it up. There's actually four principles Alex shares and Don gets into it as well. So definitely recommend checking that out to go. Listen to Business Made simple, hosted by Donald Miller. Wherever you get your podcast, are you juggling multiple tools to run your online business? Well, thankfully there is a better way and it's called Kartra. So with Kartra, boosting your income has never been easier. And that's because it's the ultimate all in one platform for online success, offering every tool you need to grow your business. So imagine building pages, funnels, courses, autoresponders and checkouts all in one place and all for one affordable price. So the best part about Kartra is that you can automate just about everything. So it's like having a team of experts working around the clock to help you earn more. Now's the time to streamline and scale your business. Visit Hustle and Flowchart.com Kartra for a free 30 day trial. That's hustleandflowchart.com K A R T R A.

Now if you get those first two right in your marketing, like you said, that's 90% of the work right there. Clarity on what you offer and the problem. But to continue making it more interesting, there's a. There's more principles that I'll go through kind of quickly. But then what happens is in a movie, the hero can't solve the problem on their own, so they meet a guide. It's Obi Wan Kenobi. That's Yoda. That's Haymitch in Hunger Games. That's Gandalf in Lord of the Rings. That's Aslan in Chronicles of Narnia. There's always somebody who is older, wiser, been there, done that, who can help the hero win the day. And like I said earlier, within marketing principles, the third marketing principle is this is you are not the hero of the story. You are the guide. You are the person who helps the hero win. And so all of your marketing has to be about that. Meaning you don't talk about yourself. You don't talk about the product or the features. That's talking about you. You talk about the benefits that positions the customer. You don't talk about your own history like that. Or like, yeah, I like ice cream and basketball. No. Unless you are selling ice cream and basketball, don't talk about yourself. Talk about the things in your past that apply to your customers winning the day and how you can help them win the day. Then after the hero meets a guide, the hero give. The guide gives the hero a plan. You'll always hear in movies, what's the plan? Or here's the because the hero needs a simple, clear way forward to win. And same thing with marketing principles. What that means is in your marketing, you need to tell people very clearly what are the steps they need to do to buy your product or to work with you. What does it look like for them to work with you? Show them the path forward and that it's easy. Then back to the movie. There's a moment in a movie where their hero is called to action. The hero has to be in or out. So there's often a ticking time bomb or a clock that's gonna, you know, you have to rescue your daughter in 24 hours or the bomb's gonna go off in three hours. That forces the hero to act because heroes won't. We as humans won't act on our own. We have to kind of almost be forced to act. And so in movies, there's always something's gonna explode and there's a clock countdown. And that means the hero has to in that moment for it to be a good story. The hero has to be in or out. It's very clear what they have to do. There's no ambiguity. And in good stories, the hero is always in. Right. So that's. So marketing principle for that is you have to have clear calls to action in all of your marketing on your website, in your emails, on your social media. People need to know what is the step they need to take to win. And win in this context in the story is to buy your product or service. 70% of small businesses in America do not have a clear call to action on their website, and they're losing millions because of it.

And I would add in, it sounds like urgency as well, right?

Yes, yes. And if you can do a countdown clock with it, like you have 24 hours to buy or something like that, that's going to create more engagement. And then the last two pieces of this of a good story is what I've already talked about is forecasting success or failure, the happy ending or tragedy. And you, in a good story, there has to be stakes in the story. Something has to be won or lost. If Tom Cruise is running through an airport to disarm a bomb and we find out that that bomb is full of baby powder, we're not, okay, he doesn't need to run anymore. The hero doesn't need to keep going. And we don't really care because it's like, oh, there's nothing at stake. Well, it's the same thing in your marketing. There has to be something at stake in the story either that can be gained or lost if the hero doesn't act, doesn't take the call to action. So those are the seven elements. Just to recap quickly, a hero who wants something, who encounters a problem, who meets a guide that gives them a plan that calls them to action, and that results in success or failure. So what we do is we help people create these messaging points, these seven main messaging points around this to make sure that. And then you, well, you use that for, then all your marketing, you put that, use that to guide your website, use that to guide your social media, your emails. And when you do that, if you have a very simple clear plan for, to basically make sure that you always have content to create, you're not worried about a blank page anymore, that you're always positioning your customer as a hero and your marketing is always clear so they know exactly what they're supposed to do.

It's beautiful. And it takes us out of the feeling like it needs to be about us, you know, and like you said earlier, that whole guilt of selling because that's, I think most people or a lot of folks is this, there's that barrier. But when you use this framework, you're putting them in front of you, you're doing the work for them. You're the guide, not the hero. And just that shift with a framework and then applied and well, and like.

I said, that is such a gift. I think again, yes, let's be honest. It's not altruistic. We want to grow our business, right? So it's not just, it's not just charity that we're this for it. We're, we're trying to grow our business. But the flip side of it is, is that oftentimes like I, there's so many times I go to a website and I'm like, I don't quite understand what they do or have a ton of questions or even I don't know how to buy this ticket. Like I wanted to go, this was a while back, I wanted to go apple picking and I was like, I don't. Do I have to buy tickets? Do I not? How do I show up? What time is it open? And none of that information was there. And so I went to a different site. Like, people are actually only on websites. The average is about three to five seconds depending on which research you read. And in email people are only, I just read. People are only actually reading for about nine seconds. And so if you can't clearly communicate on a website and hook people into a story within three to five seconds or in an email within nine seconds, they're going to tune you out, they're done. They don't have time because if it's confusing, overwhelming, unclear, they're done and they will go to that next email, that next website that's readily available for them.

And their inbox is definitely stacked full of More emails and other blip blops noise that. That is taking their attention. Because we're all goldfish, you know, at the end of the day with our attention spans. Well, jj, I know we talked about something you've been kind of obsessing over and researching is a tried and true method of communication and marketing that I don't know if it's still relevant anymore in 2024, you know, with TikTok, you know, getting all the attention or YouTube and all these other things. Tell me about email. Email marketing.

Email, yes. Well, that's what, that's what my book is actually about. It's really about the full sales funnel of how to create a clear sales funnel, starting with a clear message all the way through, getting people on your email list. And we tell people, you know, get build your email list. You want to grow your business. Build email list. And we wrote that book in 2020 and now we're in 2024. And I've been kind of going, all right, let's just be honest. The world has changed a lot even in the past four years. And is email still relevant? If what. And if it's not, what's the best way to grow your business? Is it on TikTok? Is it on social media? And while all of those platforms are growing and people need to diversify where they're getting their message out to the world through Instagram, TikTok, Facebook, Google search, all of that, what the research still shows is that.

Email generates an astounding 4,200% return on an investment. So basically, for every dollar that you spend on email marketing, the average return is $42. So that's a 4200% return, which is 3600% higher than any other channel. So when you're talking about Google paid ads, any of that, you are going to get a much higher return on investment using email, investing in email than. Than any other channel. And that, and that's because what the research also shows is that 99% of email users still check their inbox every day. And Gen Z, Millennials and Gen X actually even use email at a higher rate. It's not much, it's like 1 or 2%, but it's still a higher rate than boomers. And what the research is that boomers use it email for a lot of correspondence with family and friends still. But Gen X, Millennials and Gen Z use email for online shopping. So that's the place they're looking to to find deals and to stay connected with brands and Here's a big statistic for me that it was just like, okay, okay, I see that all, like, people are still using email. 99% of users check their inbox. But is it then effective? And HubSpot did a study recently and found that 77% of marketers have seen an increase in email engagement over the last 12 months. So in the past year, not only has email usage grown and people are finding it effective, like, as far as, you know, the return on the dollar, but actually, marketers are saying people are engaging in emails more than ever. So why I bring that up is because as we're starting 2024, we want to figure out, okay, what are our goals for the year? How are we going to reach them? How are we going to grow? What are the things we're going to do? And I think for a lot of us, it's just like, well, let's just work harder, you know, let's just like, put more money in here. And. And the reality is that in certain areas, that might be true. But if you are not creating a clear message and building a strong email list, you're not going to grow as quickly or as easily as other businesses. Or if you just didn't do it, a clear message is the key. And then following that up by building a strong email list. And you and I know Amy Porterfield, who's one of my friends and heroes in this space, and the quote that I always.

Take from her, as she says, when you're thinking about growing your business or building your business is never build your business on rented land. And what she means by that is, do not simply rely on Instagram, Twitter, Facebook, Google to grow your business and to give you access to your customers, because they control that information and they control that access through money and through algorithms. And if Twitter goes down and you've built your business on Twitter, you're screwed. Or X, I guess I should say X. You know, if, if, if Instagram changes the algorithm and you've built entire things around that, you're screwed, are they still good ways of reaching people? Absolutely. But everything that you should be doing in that space should be about trying to build yourself an email list that you own. You own that data, and then you have the ability to reach your customers the way you want, which should be through emails. And. And you'll see some growth because of it, but only if you have a clear message to start with.

And that's the clarity. And this is where another mentor of mine, James Schramko, talks about owning the Race course same idea is, is you have the, you have that you can have your community in a forum even like you could take it steps further to really have that control. And like you mentioned what we have nine seconds or so you said on average when people open an email it's like Great. Might have 98+% people engaging with email. But yeah, if you're forgetting about the clarity and this framework in emails now and building your campaigns that way or any message you send out there, you're still going to lose them. So even though you have them subscribed, there is a bond in more likelihood. But yeah, the buck doesn't stop there. Once you got them on your within your quote unquote control. This is why I loved your book and I just got to shout it out again. Marketing made simple because it literally has frameworks through and through based off of the story brand framework you walk through in more detail. Of course I know I used this to already build and this is now I got to revisit it but a couple years back landing pages and all of these campaigns literally just kind of start plugging and playing with what's in that book. And I think you even have a tool right online that someone can use and, and basically use it even in more depth.

Yeah. So if for all the listeners out there, we have a special tool for you if you want to begin this process. And it's what we call an online brand script. So I talked about the seven different elements of story and when we create those talking points, what we do is we literally write them down on a sheet of paper and we call that a brand script. So it actually gives us the language for all our campaigns and, and we have an online version of that@storybrand.com brandscript one word. So storybrand.com brandscript and what it is is just a tool that you can go online and start plugging in different talking points to see if your story is actually focused on the customer, makes them the hero. And you have all the elements so you have all the pieces. So it's a compelling story. So it's focused on them them. It's compelling, it's clear. And there's even a video that kind of at the beginning that explains it a little bit more. Donna Miller is on there, so you can watch that. But really that's the tool that we use. And I use that with, you know, the bakers down the street. I mean literally like a bakery down the street all the way up to gigantic multi billion multinational companies and they use the same frameworks in order to clarify their message and grow their business.

I love it. Yeah. And I've used that the online platform before and it helps a ton and. Yeah. So give that a shot. And I'm sure in my mind I'm thinking, because I'm nerding out on AI all the time as well. I'm sure with enough frameworks, once you dial things in, you could probably have that help create things for you. Are there uses that you've applied yourself using any kind of tools? I'm just thinking of any other kind of future tech or ways to enhance the storytelling.

Yeah. I mean with obviously with AI, like that helps.

Helps you create things so much faster and gets things done. You know, as far as like creativity of just like sparking. That's what I use it a lot for is brainstorming. But what I found in using AI is that if you don't have a clear message before, so if you're putting in junk to the, to the AI, it's going to give you junk out. It just actually, you know, makes it faster, you know, so it's like, it's almost like now you're giving a monkey a bullhorn. It's like you have a, A, you know, convoluted message and now you're just making that convoluted message louder because you're sending out more emails and more websites and more social posts. And so I found that you. This goes. This pairs really well without AI because you can clarify your message, then put it into AI and then get blog posts, get email messages, is get social media posts that you can use and create much faster on your own in that way. So that's kind of one space. But the other thing I would just say is where this has helped me beyond marketing is literally anytime I'm working to communicate with somebody.

I'll pull back the curtains a little bit here. Just even on this interview, right. Like at the very beginning, you brought some stuff up. I can't remember how you actually started it it, but. Well, no, I know how you started it. You started it with a lot of companies really struggle, you know, and make their message too complicated. And you really started off this podcast with a listener problem. Because I'm sure there's a lot of people out there who struggle with marketing and making their message too complicated, don't have their whole teams on the same page. You could have said, you know, story brand's really interesting and fun and let's talk about movies and you know, all this stuff. But Instead, you started this podcast with a problem. And what that did is it should have hooked the listener at the very beginning to go, oh, I have that problem. I want to pay attention. So anytime you're communicating, say, like, even as a leader in a company, and you're getting up and you're trying to get, say, you know, people in your company to sign up for the new healthcare plan and actually like, or show up to the meeting for the healthcare plan, don't get up in front of everybody and say, hey, we, we need everybody to show because we need 95% of people. Da, da, da, da. No, stand up and say, so many of you have had questions about health care lately, you're struggling to know are the da, da da, da, da, da, da, da, da. Well, when you come to the meeting, you're going to discover, right? So it's when you ask about future applications. I mean, yes, it can apply to everything with AI and social media, but it also still applies to in person, in front of people, communication. If you, if you get up in any environment, if you're getting up on stage to give a keynote address at a conference, you shouldn't get up and go, man, I love this city. I just flew in and I'm a little tired. And last time I was here in Cincinnati, that. No, no, no, no. People think that that ingratiates you to the audience. Don't do that. Get up on stage and immediately start with the problem that your audience is experiencing that you have the ability to solve. Why should they pay attention to the next 30% minutes? Start with their problem. So when I walk on stage, I get up and I say, everybody in this room is here because they want to grow their business. The problem is most people are wasting millions of dollars on marketing. And I'm going to tell you why. Immediately say why they're here. That's what the character wants. And then immediately go into the problem of that marketing is costing your marketing is costing you millions of. And then the. Honestly, very little. As long as the rest of it is good as far as like giving good content that then you're set. But you have to hook them at the beginning with a. With what they want and the problem. And you did that when we started this podcast. So I, you know, hopefully you did it intentionally. And we're pulling back the curtains a little bit. Our tagline used to be anybody communicating anything, and that was too vague, so we got rid of it. But. But it still, the principle stills apply. It doesn't matter where or how you're communicating. If you have a clear message and you position your customers the hero, you're going to win.

I love it, man. And jj, thank you. Because frameworks help clarify everything. And I love the fact that you use me as an example there because it was on purpose and I know it can get better. And yeah, it's framing the problem. And I like how you say in the meeting example and when you go to the meeting, you're future casting for them. I got that. And here's what you'll find. Discover what you'll get, how you'll be, whatever that future thing is. And, you know, to wrap this podcast up as well, you know, we started with the big problem. I feel like by now all of us are feeling a little bit more warm and cozy about how to approach communication. Let's just say that, like, we don't need to say emails or TikToks or YouTube videos, because I, I know that's a big deal with the hooks podcast recording, but just communication with people, because we're all people, we sometimes forget the screen is just that weird barrier to another human. So, you know, we're all here, same with the headphones and all that. So, you know, continue the path. And I would urge everyone to go listen to JJ's podcast as well, also on HubSpot, which is, which is cool. But let us know. Give us a little breadcrumb on how people can go listen to you, what to expect there, and then any other future, you know, next steps that we can take folks on.

Yeah, our podcast is called Marketing Made Simple. And so it's that it's really, we give very practical. Sometimes we break down the story brand framework, but really every episode gives very practical, kind of easy things that you can do right after you get done with the podcast to grow your marketing and grow your business. So that's just marketing made simple podcast. And then I really would say the next step is to go play with that brand script. And I really do mean play, like play with the online brand script. And Again, that's@storybrand.com BrandScript and play around with it. Have fun. Because I think marketing should be fun. And I know there's a lot of pressure that's not to diminish our goals or what's at stake in all of this. But also I think when you actually learn how to do it in a story framework, you can play, you can have fun, and you can invite your whole team along in the process to do the same thing so that you're working together to reach more customers and grow your business.

If we can all communicate better, I mean, that's gonna solve any kind of internal stuff external. Like you said, get the. Get the team involved, looped in. Let's all play. And you're right, it should be play. Life is play. So that's how great things happen. So, jj, appreciate you, man. And I mean, I will be reviewing this episode myself a couple times over at minimum, and then rereading the good old book here. So marketing made simple. Go grab that, y'.

All.

We'll put a link in the show notes. So thank you very much for your time, man. Very, very much. Appreciate you.

Thanks so much. It's been fun.

All right. All right. That's what I got for you today. And remember, it's not all about living to work. It's all about working to live if you need to do the work. But, you know, work can be fun, and it should be fueling for your life. So if you enjoyed what you just heard, if you got some nuggets of wisdom that you want to share or you're just noodling on right now, please go tell others. The way that people find this show and how you can help others get their aha moments is through word of mouth. So if it is telling your friend, telling your family, send an email to your list writing a review or whatever it might be. Everything helps. So thank you so much for listening to the Hustle and Flowchart podcast, and I will see you next time.