Taylor Welch - How Inexpensive Products Drive High-Ticket Sales

We tend to have more of a constraints based thinking process. Things tend to revolve around constraints. We'll end up arbitrarily making something harder than it is. So let's take it back to the memos. When we launched the memos, if we get kicked off of Facebook, how would we survive for six months? It's a very problem based type of thinking versus now what I would do having my thinking is if I wanted to collect 100 clients a month without using Facebook, what would I do? It just reverses it around. And maybe what we would have come up with is the same thing. But the difference would have been when it started working, if we would have had the right gross thinking behind it, we probably would have blown it up.

This is an intro. Intro, intro, intro.

Hustle and Flowchart with your boy, my.

Boy, Matt Wolf and Joe Fear.

Hey, welcome back to the Hustle and Flowchart podcast.

Intro time.

Intro, intro, intro.

All right, we got Taylor Welch. Taylor Welch on the horn today from.

Traffic and Funnels and a whole bunch of other companies that we're gonna talk about. We mostly know him from Traffic and Funnels, him and his business partner, Chris Evans. We've spent a little bit of time with them at a couple different events.

Couple times. Yeah.

And this episode is actually kind of a sort of wide ranging episode. We kind of COVID a lot of topics. We talk about their philosophy behind product creation and why they create some of the products they create. Which actually had some really big aha moments for me and Joe and some big perspect perspective shifts on that. We talked about delegation and actually how to hire the right next people in your business to really scale again. Something that Joe and I had some.

Real aha moments about rethinking to be had there. It's not just your basic I want to go hire someone on Odesk or whatever. It doesn't even exist upwork anymore. Yeah, you'll like it because it's a mind shift.

Yep, yep.

What else? We talk a lot about just their philosophy of like having a portfolio of companies and the purpose of having each of these companies and what they do to serve each other. And there's a really cool mind shift there again. I mean, there's the fact that he's gleaned so much knowledge from Jay Abraham. You know, a lot of folks on the podcast now have listened to Jay and our show a couple times and, you know, we've had the honor to have a lot of FaceTime with him and work with him and Taylor. It sounds like, that was a huge upgrade for him and Chris working with Jay. So his stories around that, I mean, we relate to, but 100%. It's hard to put words on, like, how that affects you.

Yeah, yeah, for sure.

It's. It's huge.

And if you want to hear all of our big insights from this episode and all of the biggest takeaways and the stuff that kind of blew our mind, make sure you stick around to the end of the episode. We are. We are putting more of our conversation stuff at the end instead of the front of the episode. So after this episode, you'll hear Joe and I jump back on and talk about some of our biggest takeaways. If you haven't already. Well, you probably haven't, because you're just listening now. But go get the notes hustled. Flowchart.com/comp. And also, we're sponsored by the lovely hrefs.

So perky. Whenever you choose.

Lovely hrefs.

Also. Also. Hey.

Well, I just pretend like I'm talking to just you. And this is how I talk when I talk to just you. I act like a conductor.

Yeah, you are. You do look like you need another one. You need two. There you go. Anyway, so, hrefs. Hey, I can. Let's talk about some hrefs here, huh?

Okay, you want to talk about hrefs, you talk about hrefs.

I want to talk about ahrefs. I think this is ahrefs. It's. You could use it as like a. It's almost like a discovery of. I feel like, of opportunities of what people are searching for. I'm just thinking of just a lot of the talks we've had, and it's not even Taylor specific, but I feel like it's just a great way to do some keyword research. Keyword discovery of the trends and what's happening in your space, or maybe some new opportunities you got in front of you. I mean, I'm just thinking of this because Taylor's involved in so many businesses. They have a lot of different products.

Yeah, it's a great research tool, dude.

Yeah.

Just really dig in and find other sort of verticals.

Yeah. A lot of articles, opportunities, competitors, how you're doing your analysis of your own site and. Or other sites. You might have multiple sites. You could do that, too.

Yep.

But ahrefs, as you probably have heard before, they have amazing trial offer for you. Seven days. $7 a day. Just for seven days, though, so. But it should be enough for you to get your feet wet and understand it because they have a lot of training. If you go to ahr. Nope, Nope.

A H R E F s dot com.

It's because I didn't say hrefs before. So. Yeah. So a H R E F s dot com. Go get that trial. They are amazing. And enjoy. Let's go chat with Taylor. All right, we're rolling. Taylor, how you doing, my friend?

Amazing. How are you guys?

Rocking.

Doing good.

We're happy to chat. I think the last time. Well, actually, when we saw you was at Rich's event. Rich Sheffern in Florida. Yeah. I think it was right before the.

Whole Covid madness, right before the world shutdown.

That's it, man.

I feel like that's such a.

Just a massive gathering of people for 24 plus hours.

Well, it's so weird because, like, the COVID thing wasn't even on my radar yet at that point. Like, I hadn't even been thinking about it. And then, like, within a week after we got back, it just, like, went crazy.

I think the travel ban had just happened, and. And then it was like everything went to zero. I remember thinking. I'm like, there's no way. There's no way that everything's gonna shut down. Like, it was in Europe. And then Starbucks closed, and I was like, it's over.

It's over.

Like, if Starbucks capitulated, we're all done.

It's a good point. And then it was, like, not that long over here. That was, like, the only thing that actually somehow did reopen first or stay open, and they just had the longest lines in the world. I'm like, no one makes coffee at home. I have espresso.

Where are you guys at?

San Diego.

Okay. I was just in Charlotte, and it's bad there still, because, dude, you go to Starbucks, and they can only have, like, three people in the shop at the same time. We're open here.

Yeah.

Everything here is open in Nashville because we're not traders. Charlotte still, I remember just being like, what is going on? There's, like, 50 people in a line. I was like, man, I would not want to live here right now. No offense to the Queen City, but yeah, put your mask on and go in there.

I guess that's right.

San Diego still kind of, like, half shut down. Like, half. Like, restaurants and stuff are kind of open, but, like, minimum capacity, I think. Are gyms open yet?

I don't know.

I think gyms might still be closed. I don't know.

That's why we're at home.

I think gyms opened up because there's a gym in La Jolla that I'm subscribed to because every time I'm out there I go to this gym. They opened up August 30th, August 31st.

Let me guess, do you go to.

FIT or there's like La Jolla Fit Club or something?

Yeah, yeah, because Stanzo Bracket stanza, everybody goes to pb. So yes, I do think it's open because I've heard him say the same thing.

Nice, nice.

Case solved.

All right. Funny that. I know that and I live there.

Yeah.

Got the email.

You tell how much I get out to the gym? No, I have a home. I have a home gym.

Of course, Taylor, workout harder. All right, so we're not going to be talking about working out, I don't think, but give us the, give us the scoop, man. Because we, we, we've been following you guys for a long time. You and Chris Evans, you guys are partners, traffic in funnels. You have like a physical newsletter. What the memos I think it's called. Right.

I think they changed the name to Insiders Access, but same thing.

There you go. All right. Yeah, it's cool because it's like short, punchy, it just gets to the point. I think it's monthly, it's dirt cheap. So it's just kind of a no brainer. Yeah, give us a scoop of your story. Just like a little brief background and maybe a TF Traffic and funnels and all that.

Sure. So I started freelance as a copywriter in 2015 and I met Chris in a mastermind that was run by Ryan Levesque at the time. And if you haven't had him, he's awesome. You probably already know him couple times. So he was a mentor of sorts to me back in the day. I met Chris in, I think it was called, you guys remember this mastermind group he had on Facebook? It was like next level or next level Masterminds?

Oh yeah, Ryan Levesque thing. Yeah, I remember that.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Now you can't call anything next level because it's so cliche, but he was one like back in the day it was awesome. It was like.

It was some next level shit.

Back in the day it was some next level stuff. Exactly. So Chris was doing advertising, just Facebook advertising, and I was doing copywriting and we met, he liked some of the stuff that I was doing and wanted it for some of his clients. So we kind of just connected and we sent clients back and forth for about six months. And then eventually it was just like, dude, let's just partner up and see what we can do. Because I'm sending you clients, you're sending me your clients. But if we could put it under one roof, it'd be amazing to start an agency. So we did the agency thing for a couple of months and it was great.

In the first three months we had gotten it up to like 25, 30K a month. We started consulting in January because.

We.

Were doing work for people. But there were enough friends that were asking us what was going on that we just, we started doing education because of that. Excuse me, just a little Covid remnants here.

Not really, y'. All.

Not really. I'm okay. So we stopped. We actually hired a guy named Sam in January of 2016, and he looked at our economics and our business model and he was like, you guys are gonna make way more money if you just teach the ropes rather than doing it. And we're like, ah, you know, you know, we kind of like doing it. But we got so busy on the consulting side that our prices were like 200 grand to build a funnel and people didn't want to pay that.

Forcing people out.

We ended up, yeah, we kind of discontinued it just from pricing.

So TF has been. It's about. It's actually just hit its five year mark because it was actually started in September of 2015 and we just crossed over that threshold, 2020. So it's been around for five years. It started growing really fast. 2016 took off. We were at half a million dollars a month. By the time we got to the beginning of 2017. We kind of got stuck there for a little bit, plateaued out. 2018, we started hiring a team, did everything wrong, lost the team, tried again, lost that team too. But by the time we got to 2019, we had a pretty good team. We had a really good operator who came in and was our COO and we started sales mentor at the beginning of 2019. We started wealth cap mid 2019. We just acquired a business in Australia a couple of months ago. So now we have four or five businesses kind of under this portfolio of companies. And TF is. It goes back and forth from being the biggest to the second business. Biggest business actually. So kind of what we're known for is becoming the second largest in the company. The portfolio of companies. We're just having fun. We're just seeing how big we can get. Everything very cool. That's a very, very fast run through.

Perfect. We love the fast run throughs because we love to get into like the nitty gritty and stuff too. So I'm curious about, like, your. Your partnership, because it seems like most partnerships don't last very long. It's. You know, you don't find partnerships that have much longevity to them. Joe and I have been partners for, like, 13 years now, and everybody who hears that goes, holy shit. How have you. How do you do that? Right?

Crazy.

So I'm curious, like, how is your, like, your partnership relation? Do you guys. Are you guys, like, pretty siloed in your own roles? Do you have a lot of overlap? Like, what is. What does the partnership look like?

We're sort of siloed, but it changes quite often based on what we're passionate about.

For us. I originally wanted to do the partnership, and he didn't want to. Chris was really weird about it. Even today, if you talk to him about it, he kind of will laugh because he was just weird about it. I remember being like, we should partner. We could team up. We could probably build something big. He's like, well, how do you know that I'm not just gonna do none of the work and then take all of the money? And I was like, dude, what a weird thing to ask someone.

Yeah.

First thing that's like, the first thing out of your mouth. And I was like, maybe we shouldn't partner. Let's just give. Whatever. But he had been in some bad business partnerships, and so if he was coming out of one of those, and I didn't know this at the time, where he had done all of the work and the other person kind of just disappeared, so that was what was on his radar. Which, when I found out about that, I was actually like, that's okay, because that means he's willing to work and put in the effort. I was so new that I had never had anything bad a year in.

Right. Like, that was the. You said 2015 when.

When we met was in, like, June, and I had been in this since March.

Wow.

Well, not even. Not even a year in. Yeah.

Wait, so I'm curious. Like, so you guys met at a. You said it was a mastermind?

Yeah, online.

Oh, online. That's right. Yeah. Inside the group there. So that's crazy. So you just started networking in the right places. Like, what got you going originally in copywriting? Was it just writing your own stuff for other people?

My wife Lindsey, she is a hairstylist, so she wanted more clients. And I decided that I didn't go to school for it, but I could probably teach myself marketing. And I don't know if that is a feature of My personality or a downside? Just kind of like, I was just ready to go. It can't be that hard. I'll pick up a book, whatever. I got a book by John Carlton called the Entrepreneur's Guide to Getting a Shit Together. And it was not even about copywriting. It was about entrepreneurship. And copywriting was in there. This was 2014. We were at the beach, Orange Beach, Alabama. If you didn't know that there was a beach in Alabama, there is.

The one.

It's not a San Diego beach. No, but it works. It works. So I read this book in Alabama, and I was just like, dude, this guy says it works. He says he doesn't have to put clothes on in the morning. He just wakes up and does work. I think I want to try it. You know, it's kind of like my first. I thought. I didn't even know what copywriting was. I thought copywriting was how you protect songs with the United States government.

Right.

I had no idea what marketing or entrepreneurship or any of that stuff was really all about. So we found somebody, and it was a subscription. Who? They helped you build marketing for hair salons. This is like how niche I was. I just went to Google and started looking like hair salon marketing and ended up paying them like 90 bucks or something for a template for a sales letter. And I changed the template, put her name in it kind of messed with it a little bit. And we got about 300 addresses from this site online, and I paid for them to be mailed out for a free. Like a free. We called it like, a beauty assessment or something silly. And she got like five or six clients from it. So I was like, holy crap. This is like, this is my ticket, you know, I'm going to quit my day job, and I'm going to help my wife get clients. I'm going to sit at home, watch Game of Thrones, like, not have to do anything. My vision was literally, man, I'm just going to get out. I need to replace $2,500 a month from the day job, and we can do that through my wife's business, and then I won't have to do anything anymore.

Once we got to $2,500 a month, I was obviously like, well, I can do 10amonth and 50amonth.

It's always funny, that whole what you just said, it's so common. It's like, I'll never have to do anything. That's bullshit.

You're always gonna do something.

You're an entrepreneur.

100%. Yeah. So it was because of her, and she takes great pleasure in this. It was because of her that I kind of stumbled into the game of marketing and advertising and online business, and it just kind of took off like a wildfire.

She deserves it.

About two years, when we got married, we were so broke.

That I borrowed a ring from my grandfather to propose to her. I worked at a church. This was before real estate. I made about $14,000 a year, which is why I don't work at church anymore. That's why I exited that world. But I told her, I was like, I'll work however many jobs I need to. When we make it, I'll make it, right? And we'd just been going, going, going, going, going. And two years ago, we were at a restaurant, Carrabba's, actually, in Franklin, Tennessee. She's like, you know how you said that once we made it, we would upgrade? And I was like, yeah. She's like, I think we've made it. So we went to a jewelry store, bought her a new ring. This is like, two years ago. So she was. She was comfortable enough to be like, I think we made it. Look around. Let's take care of business. And I was like, you got it 100%. Let's do it.

That is such a cool story, man. It's like, priorities. You're getting everything in the right way before you. I mean, even, like, crushing it, obviously before you made it, quote, unquote. But priorities.

So, yeah, you got started with Chris. Traffic and funnels and all that. And I know it's evolved over the years, too, right? So you did the agency stuff for a while now, what training and all that. And we're seeing a bunch of mini products of yours out there, you know, tied to the ads saw, you know, with Agora, you had some promotions going out with them. Maybe talk about that a little bit because. Or, you know, the strategy as a whole, I guess let's start there Is like, traffic and funnels. How you guys see, I guess, traffic and funnels. Like, what's your. What's your perspective of how it all kind of works? And I'm just trying to think like. Like, where do we start here? Because I want to get into some tactics of. Of what you guys do best of.

Yeah, I mean, so one of the philosophies I had when I was writing copy, everybody's trying to sell something, and that's kind of the point, right? Like, trying to mobilize the person on the other end of the screen to read this copy and follow through my Philosophy was to kind of get in. And I believe that if somebody can, if somebody wants something, it's old, old copywriting training is like, you gotta get in. You can't create. I think Eugene Schwartz was saying that you can't create human emotion. Like you have to go in the flow with what already is there. You can't create human desire. You have to find out what they already want and go with it. And so I kind of took that and developed a philosophy of if somebody gets to the end of a piece of copy and they have no more objections, then the next step is for them to buy. Right. Because I'm assuming we're putting out products that people already want, the byproduct of the product they already want, the result of the product they already want. I'm not trying to elicit more desire, I'm trying to mitigate the risk, the perceived risk that they have in this product, which actually turned out to be a pretty winning style of writing copy, especially in Internet marketing. Because the biggest issue with Internet marketing is believability. People think everything's a scam. But if you deal with all of the objections that someone has, say they have 10 objections, you just systematically go through and eliminate each objection they're going to buy. That's the next step. Well, we took that philosophy into the world of product development. So if you look at the top four objections people have about high ticket consulting or investing into real estate or whatever it is, you can actually build products that are. Their central theme is to deal with one objection at a time.

Which is massive because then somebody is trading money in exchange for what is real value. But really what you're doing is you're moving them along from left to right, dealing with an objection. So for us in TF, it was consulting client kit was $10,000 and people had objections. And they ranged from what if this doesn't work out? To I don't have enough money. Everything in between is free. Free gamut. So we created a product called Wealth Secrets, which taught people how to think about money. And it wasn't necessarily selling Client Kit, it was selling them on.

This, it was selling them on how to think about the objection. And once they learned how to think past that objection, there was no more selling that was involved. And so now we have advertising products, we have Wealth Secrets, we have the Common Sense consulting book, we have Intelligent Advertising book. We have probably 18 to 20 different products. And they each teach people how to do what they promise to do. But more than that, they deal with the objection that is attached to that product. Does that make sense?

That makes perfect sense, yeah.

So the sort of front end products are if they buy them, they go through them and that just sort of kills an objection to buying the bigger product down the line. I think one of the ones that I've seen a lot of ads for was like a. I think it was a productivity course deal.

So let me tell you, let me tell you about Productivity package. How many times do you hear like, this sounds amazing, but you know, I don't have the time to go through.

Anything else all the time.

Yep.

So productivity pack obviously is going to deal with that. Yep. If you don't, if you can organize your life in such a way that you can not only get more freedom, but you can get more time teaching people what's really important. And what do you think happens to somebody as they go through that product? Not only do they. Their life obviously improves because it's a great product. But no longer do we have to deal with the objection of, well, I don't have time to do this right now. Well, yes, you do. You absolutely have time to do it because we just trained you how to do it in Productivity Pack and you gave us a hundred dollars for it.

Yeah, that's a. I've never thought of it. Or. And I heard you say you call them advertising products. Right? That's kind of. Is that like the term you guys use? So, yeah, these things are like little.

Oh, no, no, I mean product. We have products that teach advertising.

Oh, got it, got it. Yeah. I was thinking, I was like, oh, these products are okay. They're going to be paired up for that too. But yeah, you're like training your customers to be the best customers for the big ticket thing or whatever is coming up after that.

Yeah, growing them up 100%.

That's so smart. Yeah.

With you, I mean, I'm just thinking of like the psychological implications. It's like, dude, they're listening to you, they're trusting you because you're literally coaching them from kind of like this foundational level to where they really want to go, but they're just not ready for. So you're going to probably have way more loyalty, you know, people for like, probably going to last way longer as a client just because they're like, oh, shit. Okay. Chris and Taylor, like rocked it from day one. And like, yeah, I'll fork over 10k. No big. Yeah, I trusted.

We pivoted hard against. When we came in, there was only one big competitor and the big defining Message of that competitor was like Click to client 48 hours. It was like super fast. Like see an ad, be a high ticket client. And we kind of went the anti model of that with the opposite. Whereas like, you know, the longer it takes someone to become a client, the more trust they're going to have in us and so our numbers are going to look better. So we're completely fine. You know, the messaging actually began to sound like this. We're completely content to invest into you before you invest into us. Because we understand that by becoming a member of client kit.

That $10,000 is way undervalued. And what we're after is a long term relationship. And so that $10,000 is a lost leader. So we're gonna go ahead and invest that money into you now by giving you $10,000 worth of goods and services and information. And it's not that the competition is doing anything bad. They're just playing a different game than we are. They're playing the Amex game and we're playing like, does this human have what it takes for us to have a long term relationship? So all of a sudden the buying frame completely shifts around and people don't feel like they're, you know, it's not a predatorial type of approach where they're like, you know, imagine what happens when the complete dominating ethos of your program is like, bam, click to client in 48 hours. Well, that's what just happened to you. And so they're like, oh, but for us, we're like, we'll invest in you as long as it takes for you to get to the place where you feel like confident this is the right thing. It's a much better approach in my opinion.

It just makes a lot of sense. Yeah. And it's easy on you guys. You're not rushing anything. You're not trying to cater to all these people's needs. You know what their needs are. From day one you've walked through, you probably understand all their. Yeah, all the pain, struggles and all that stuff in your research before even writing the copy and mapping this stuff out.

So yeah, man, definitely.

I'm curious what the.

Philosophy, the reasoning behind the memos, would you call it now it's now the insiders.

Insiders access.

Yeah. So I think it's like, I don't know if the price has changed since we bought it, but I think it was like six bucks a month or something like that. So you're probably pretty close to like breaking even on that. Like what, what's the what's the sort of philosophy game plan with that?

We're definitely losing money on it.

Because there's also shipping costs involved. But that, that started when, so one of our accounts got kicked off of Facebook. And this is probably like, I don't know, 2016 or maybe early 2017. It was a long time ago. And I was like, man, if we get kicked out of off of Facebook completely, then what do we do? We have no way to advertise. We have to go figure out YouTube or whatever. Well, let's just build a secondary list so that we can advertise and sell to them. And I think the goal at the time was like, man, what if we had four or five hundred people, they were subscribed to this mailing list. And then if Facebook kicks us off, it gives us like six months because we can kind of fish from this list and it could be cool to build up notoriety in the market and, you know, just be cool. Everybody's doing it. At the time, direct mail was still out and it was starting to come back in. But we were at the beginning.

And then now it's like, you know, there's 40,000 people subscribed to this list and it's like, it just became like this crazy thing. But at the time it was like, man, how do we get 400 people on this? Just in case, you know, Insurance policy. It was very short sighted. It was a very. Yeah, it was an insurance policy, but it was also very like small thinking, you know, like, if we get kicked off of Facebook, how do we survive for six months? Whereas I think at the time, like, that's as far as we could see. Whereas now it's like we try to make sure that any moves that we make are significantly bigger than that, you know. But it did work out. It served a purpose. We're obviously still doing it. It's just a lot bigger now.

Are you like, what kind of. I want to circle back to that kind of scarcity or thinking bigger thing. Maybe some principles and stuff you live by now. But what do you use the newsletter list for now? Are there promotion types that you run consistently or do you have a plan with all that?

I actually don't know. You'd have to chat with Mike. Yeah, I have no idea. I spend about five hours a week inside of traffic and funnels.

Ah, okay.

So I. I actually have no idea.

What.

I love it.

They do.

We'll get talk to Microsoft, which is a different topic.

This is a different topic completely.

It is, well, like really quick, like hit on the whole thinking bigger thing, because I think that's super important. Because a lot of folks are just like, they're like one move ahead, not chess thinking like three or four out. So, like, how would you do it differently now? If you go back in time, how.

Would I do it differently now?

Or like the thinking process? Like what. What are some of the principles? You would now think bigger rather than thinking small, like you did there for like one purpose, which is like, hold off the business for six months.

Now we tend to have more of a constraints based thinking process. Things tend to revolve around constraints. And what I mean by that is. Have you guys ever heard of Keith Cunningham? Yep. So he talks about this a lot. And we'll end up arbitrarily making something harder than it is. So let's take it back to the memos. When we launched the memos, if we get kicked off of Facebook, how would we survive for six months? It's a very problem based type of thinking versus now. What I would do, having my thinking is, if I wanted to collect 100 clients a month without using Facebook, what would I do?

So it kind of positions it differently, reverses it around. And yeah, maybe what we would have come up with is the same thing. But the difference would have been when it started working, because we didn't always lose money on the memos. At the very beginning, it was. Nobody else was selling anything like it, so there wasn't any competition to it. Kern wasn't selling a newsletter. Nobody was selling a newsletter. We were the only ones in our industry selling a newsletter.

Mm.

If we would have had the right growth thinking behind it, we probably would have blowed it up. We would have put a hundred grand a week into ads on it, and we would have just taken over the entire market with it. But because it was a very risk type question, we just served its purpose and moved on. We missed the opportunity. That makes sense.

It does. And it's just that it's. Yeah, it's putting just a different perspective on your thinking. I think it opens up more opportunities when you flip it that way. Yeah.

Yeah. It's kind of a weird thing. It's kind of a weird thing because teaching somebody how to think bigger is so tied into their experience that sometimes you got to get around people who have bigger experience and you just. It becomes osmosis, you know, I don't know, like, I don't know what happened to me exactly, other than, you know, when you spend as much time with, like, Jay Abraham as I have, like, all of a sudden, you're just like, dude, I am shit. I don't make any money.

He's coming from the world of, like, you know, $150 million in a bank account in the 80s, and I'm just like, wow, you know, okay, so, you know, 5 million a year is not a lot. 10 million is not a lot. 40 million is not a lot. You know, we'll. We'll cross over $45 million in 2020, and it's not a lot then. That's just a shift of who you spend time around. I don't know what the tactic is. I haven't figured it out, but I think it's a little bit more, like, environmental. It is tactical.

It's probably a lot of subconscious stuff, too, because we're. We're now starting to hang out with Jay a lot more and his. His crew there. And you're right. Like, it's people for us. It's Roland Frazier. We're partners and have hung out many times with him. And it's. Yeah, this osmosis, you kind of just start getting this. Like, that's what shaped our business into kind of what it is now. More partnerships, collaborations. And it's helped, and it's just upgrade, man. Yeah. There's no tactic, I guess, around that. It's just a shift.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

So you mentioned that you're only working on traffic in funnels, like, five hours a week right now. Which leads me down the sort of, like, delegation path. I feel like that's one of the biggest struggles that entrepreneurs have to, like, really scale to. Like, the next level is they're so afraid to, like, let go of stuff. Did you guys, like, ever struggle with that? Did you ever have, like, a point where you're like, no, I don't want to bring on more team members because that means, you know, less money flowing to us or anything like that. Did you struggle with that, and how did you get past that kind of stuff?

100%. We struggled with it for a long time, and.

The biggest thing we had to learn was that we were not good leaders and that it wasn't necessarily the people we were hiring. It was the way that we were managing them.

I always tell people today that there's two levels to outsourcing, and the first level is outsourcing your hands. Outsourcing what you do. Go do this, do it by this time, and here's how to do it. And most entrepreneurs kind of get stuck there, and there's not enough profitability there in that level of outsourcing to justify really having a big team, you just stay with personal assistant and you'll be good. But the level two, which is where you really begin to leap to new levels, is outsourcing your mind, outsourcing decisions. So one is outsourcing work. The second is outsourcing decisions.

When we made the jump from just hiring people and telling them what to do to hiring people and saying, here's the goal, Go figure it out, then it made it crystal clear who needed to be on the team and who didn't need to be on the team, who needed to be replaced. And, you know, that 2018, 2017, 18 period where it's like we kind of went through two teams ultimately, is because we were hiring people, telling them what to do, but we had an expectation that they were going to help us grow. But people aren't going to help you grow by what they do. They're going to help you grow by what they think.

Right.

You have to replace yourself, and you are a thinker. And that's. That happened late 2018, 2019. We started exploding.

Interesting. That is. I mean, that's where we've been caught up as well before. Is. Is. I like what you said.

That's where we're caught up right now.

Yeah. I mean, well, now I think it's. It's with collaborations. That's the difference. That's the Roland and the J, you know, is like, we're now leveraging other people's skill sets and, you know, their. Their face sometimes and all that. It's working. But, yeah, internally we're hiring more. Just the best talent. A lot of them come from this podcast, you know, to help us, like, grow the podcast, help us with email and stuff like that. But it's the thinking. It's not outsourcing. The hands. I thought that was cool. It's like, yeah, you don't. Don't outsource the hands. That's the work. That's just the minutia.

It's the easy part. Yeah, it's the easy part. You don't have to pay them a lot, but you can't count on them to make great decisions. I think the hard part for entrepreneurs is.

We get so used to doing things ourselves, and then we have to make a decision. And sometimes that decision sounds like, look, I trust you enough to make the wrong decision. And that is a very difficult thing to get behind because there are times, even now, like with our wealth Cap team, they're very new. They've been on our Leaders for the real estate business have been on since about February. Very new, very green. They have experience in the field, but they do not have experience with our level of growth. So there are things right now that I know is not going to work and I've given them counsel that it's not going to work, but man, they still think it's going to work. And so they're just pushing on as a leader. It's like, I have to have the self control to just be like, okay, because how did we learn? We learned by making mistakes. We're not going to be able to skip our team over the same thing. Like, there's a level where they're going to have to fall sometimes. Like they're going to have to do it themselves. And if you step in prematurely, what you think you're communicating is like, hey, I care about you, I'm going to help you. But what you actually communicate is, I do not trust you. And then that becomes the ethos that they operate under. And you can have a really talented person who does not feel trusted, who.

Will leave, and that's stuck with them too. It's like once you kind of express that once, I would imagine it's kind of always in their heads, you know?

Yeah, that's.

Yeah.

You almost become kind of like an advisor to your own business and not the runner of your own business, which.

Is what Roland is, 100%.

That's why he wants to be on the board.

Like, holy cow, dude, what do you even do all the time? He's like, man, he does the things only he can do, which is thinking and provide his advice. He's not working in the weeds.

Nope. He does not want to be in there. And we know firsthand experience, no recurring calls. No. I'm like, it's brilliant. And these are all the things that we don't attest to yet. But one day they're sinking in like, okay, these are the qualities that Jay, that Roland, that all these even Rich. There's a lot we learned from Shepherin. Yeah, it's.

We still find ourselves getting in and building landing pages and shit like that. Right. Still to this day, we'll still be doing a lot of that stuff. And what you're saying is really sort of hitting home because what you're talking about is where we probably need the next phase of growth in our own business is starting to hire more of the decision makers. But I imagine to find the good decision makers, you got to kind of fish in different ponds than you would fish in if you were trying to find somebody to take over running your Facebook ads for you, so where would you go and what sort of attributes are you looking for to find the right type of people to do that stuff?

I mean, that's like a really. That would be a different podcast altogether to hit that in totality. But.

I think we've pulled our best people from different industries, and they have the attitudinal prowess. They might not have the aptitude right away because they're coming from different worlds with different requirements. But, you know, our COO right now, who is kind of running all the companies, came from the sappy world. He had no idea what a Facebook ad was when he came in, and so we just kind of gave him the Runway to figure it out. You know, our sales director right now came from the real estate world. No idea what consulting was. So sometimes there's a lot of. There's a lot of gold you can get out of somebody who doesn't have all of the bad lessons of coming up in Internet marketing. Indeed, to be honest, like, we have people who did come up in Internet marketing, but it's not always the best. It's not always the best candidate because it's almost. Internet marketing is kind of like. It's a little vortex. It's like a little bubble, and it just doesn't exist. Like, people don't know what it is. You're right. Bankers are like, what do you do? Like, you sell cocaine. Like, what. What's going on? It kind of. It teaches people sometimes the wrong lessons. You know, where you know what you want is stability, and especially in your executive teams and your leaders. I would rather pull from someone who doesn't come up from Internet marketing, but they have emotional intelligence and they have management skills and they know how to do interviews and they know how to count money. But it's all attitudinal. At the end of the day, if you can get somebody with a attitude of a learner, an attitude of like, I might not know how to do this, but I know how to figure it out, that will always trump the person who knows how to do it. But they can't figure anything out because that person's immobile, they're never going to be able to be moved anywhere. We move people around all the time because everybody. They know how to figure it out. Yeah, exactly. Does that answer your question?

Totally. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. I really like that. That sort of bringing in the people that aren't sort of tarnished by bad habits already or, you know, that they've gone through Frank Kern's course and they think this is the way to do it, because that's what Frank said, you know? Um. Yeah, you definitely run into a lot of that kind of.

You run into this kind of. Yeah. The self. It's just like. It's too much of an echo chamber, you know, it's the same kind of stuff being talked about, same podcast. You listening to all that? I guess. Where do you. Where do you look, man? Like, what do you. Do you study in places that are a little bit different than the norm to kind of gleam new. New strategies?

I mean, now I'm. I'm not studying anything. Marketing.

Yeah.

So perhaps the wrong answer.

How about in general, though? Like, in what. What you specialize in, so leadership investing, it sounds like, and all that.

Yeah, definitely. I feel like, for me, I don't want to learn anything from a professor. I want to learn from a practitioner. So any of the books that I can get from people who are in their boots are on the ground. They're actually doing it. And, you know, capital allocation and high finance, commodities.

Right now I'm really into irrevocable trusts and estate planning and some of the things that I need to learn and figure out for the next level of business. But you can get books from people who are actually doing the work. The problem is they have less ratings on Amazon than the authors who aren't doing the work. So you kind of got to sift and dig a little bit and figure out who is this person that I'm learning from in terms of, like, marketing. I would still say that some of the best stuff I ever got was from the guys who were dead. No. Because they didn't have the time to learn how to hack.

Their core strategies.

It was fundamental.

So I think Ray Dalio is amazing. He's kind of goofing up on some of his stuff from 2019. You can get into.

Like, even Roland's got some stuff that's just like, I'm not gonna learn what I can learn from him from some author, you know, who is. Who is not doing what he's doing. Keith Cunningham was amazing for me when I was getting into the road. Less stupid. One of my favorite books of all time. But, dude, I think you guys are the same way. But it's just, like. It's less of where you find things to learn as much as it is, like, your personality of, like, I am a learner.

Mm. Being open.

I love to learn. You guys have, like, a thousand books behind you. It's like, you can just tell the people who are like, man, if I'm not learning, I'm kind of freaking out a little bit. Like, something. Something's wrong. And to me, if you have that personality and you can develop it, then it almost doesn't matter, because if. If you go through three or four books that you don't like, you'll toss them and you'll go get new books, you know, so. But. But there's a lot of people who kind of get stuck. They feel like they don't need it. I think it overwhelms. And to me, I never want to stall out in my ability to pick up new perspectives, new information, new paradigms. I'm always studying. You can't see it, but I've got the same amount of books over there. It's not in the frame.

Sure.

Forgive me. Forgive me.

I believe it. Well, and you guys have your own podcast as well, right? Traffic and Funnels.

We have four podcasts. One is a daily podcast.

Okay, got it.

So we have a. A Traffic and Funnels one, we have two Wealth Cap ones, and then a daily mindset podcast called Daily Mind Medicine.

Nice.

Very cool.

I mean, that just being a podcaster alone, you know, and even if it's not a guest podcast, it's just you talking about, it's kind of forcing you to always learn, study.

You got to pick it up, man.

Yeah, yeah. I mean, that's probably one of the biggest things of just having a show here. And obviously we have guests almost every time. We're just picking up strategies, new perspectives, all that, but it's just forcing us, I mean, willingly to be curious and open to new perspectives. It's huge.

Thousand percent. Yeah.

I mean, the podcast really helps us, like, shut off preconceived ideas because we're getting different ideas constantly. Like, we will record three podcasts in a day, and the person that we interview first might have one perspective, and then the second person we interview is, like, the completely opposite point of view. So it's like we have to have this sort of, like, fluid, sort of spongy mind to soak it all up and, you know, compare things and that kind of stuff. So very cool. I'm curious. So you guys have, like, multiple companies together. You listed off a bunch. I think you said you had four or five companies right now. How do you decide what the next sort of avenue you're going to travel down is? Like, the next business we're going to start or the next business we're going to acquire? How do you make those decisions and travel down that path?

Great question. Part of it, I think, is opportunity. Just what is there? What's in front of us? Um, you know, somebody was. I was talking. I forget who it was. It might have been a client a month or two ago. And I was trying to explain the way I think about it, because some, you know, like, you'll know how to do something, but you've never taught it, so you don't know how to explain it. So sometimes it's good that, like, have someone ask you a question like this, because then you're forced to, like, figure it out.

I think with where we're headed, we'll probably begin to put together business acquisitions that don't make us any money, but they save us money from a different business.

So, like, for example, Sales Mentor. We didn't know this at the time because we were too, too young, but it just kind of. We got lucky.

Yeah.

Sales Mentor was what has turned into a staffing firm that staff salespeople into our other companies.

Wealth Cap has turned into an acquisitions business that takes money from TF and Sales Mentor and places it in real estate.

We have an acquisition that just went down, and it's a bookkeeping business. Well, how many of our other businesses need bookkeeping? All of them. Great. So we'll probably get into this puzzle thing, and this is something that we sort of learned from Jay, but we just didn't understand, and he was ahead of us. And so he said these things. And you guys have probably had this where it's like, he's talking and you're like, I know this is smart, but I have no idea what you're saying all the time because I'm not there yet. I don't have the intelligence to understand what you're talking about. Jay, just record this conversation. But as he was saying, figure out what the business serves. Figure out what it does for you. And at the time, we were like, money. That's what the purpose of business is, money. He's like, no, no, no. Not every business is that. We didn't understand it, but now it's like.

We'Re trying to buy a roofing company in Charlotte because we don't want to pay the money to put new roofs on our houses. It's not going to make us any more money. It's just going to decrease. So if you save a million dollars, you've made a million dollars. So things show up on the stat sheet in a lot of different ways. And part of it is also just Opportunity Roland has War Room, which is kind of his feeder. He doesn't care about the fees from all room. He just wants the opportunities that come from it. And you know, Elite is kind of like that for us. It's very valuable for clients, but they come in, they're in a year long mentorship program, and inevitably some of them are like, I'd just rather give you some equity and you help me do this. So that's kind of feeding us. So even traffic and funnels is becoming more and more of an acquisitions business and less and less of a cash business. And for us, we just want to figure out how high we can go in terms of piecing the ecosystem together. And I have no idea what our limits on that are, but it's going to be fun. Hopefully we don't go bankrupt before the end of it and we'll tell you about it.

Yeah, well, I think it's a good philosophy to have because I feel like there's no lack of opportunities right in the position we're in. I'm sure you're in a similar position, but in the position we're in, a new opportunity crosses our table almost every day. Something new that we could potentially invest in, acquire, partner on, advise in that kind of stuff just constantly. And so we're trying to learn, okay, what, what are the bumpers that we're putting up so that when opportunities come, we can pretty quickly go, nope, that's not a good fit. Versus. All right, let's look into this one a little bit deeper. And I think we've, we've gotten pretty good at putting those bumpers up. But I like the way you explained it of like, does it sort of complement one of these other businesses in some way? Because if it complements this business, then maybe the money won't be made here, but the money will be saved here. And I think that's like a really smart way of looking at it.

And exactly what you said, Taylor, is like in a micro example of like, on our end this podcast, we're explaining how we surveyed a bunch of people recently, listeners, and they told us what they want, more of what they don't want. And we noticed we were going broad. So we're like, cool. We're three and a half years into this show. That's a while for a podcast. But we realized we changed. It's time to go back to basics and reshift. But we realized this show feeds everything else we do. This is why Roland wanted to partner with us, because we're working on an affiliate based type platform there with him. Cool. Well, people from this podcast will probably. Let's shape them for that thing. Yeah. And then other ventures. J. Abraham one of them as well. You know, it's very promotional, affiliate based. So that's why a big focus and it's what people want from us. It's like, oh, that works out nice. So this is, this is what that serves in another way. It's pretty cool.

100%.

Yeah. I think. Yeah. And a lot of folks probably a good lesson just like, hey, go check out your businesses, what you have right now, what you're sitting on, maybe other assets of your business as well. Have you ever actually looked at it that way? Like almost split pieces of a business apart into.

And leverage them that way as well? Like almost more micro.

Yeah. Well, we have pieces of the business right now that are. The ownership structure is set up so that we could actually sell it and we could split things apart. We try to do that on the front end and we, we made some mistakes with sales mentoring. We didn't. And it turned into this big nightmare that we had to fix this year. But when. When you're talking about assets, like there's so many different classifications of assets that you can sometimes arbitrage assets to get new businesses for no money as well. We have customer lists and podcast listeners and you can trade advertising spots. And.

The driving force of the economy right now is all attention. And so you guys likely have a lot of that. You should never have to pay for an acquisition.

Exactly.

That's what's happening pretty much. Yeah.

And everyone's able to do that, but it's just figuring out what you're sitting on, what you have control over. And this is where Roland and Jay. Jay's the barter master and then Roland's the master at just acquiring assets for no money down. But yeah, think of what you got. It's a shit ton of leverage and pretty much everyone has something like that.

Yeah, agreed.

I don't know how we got here. We got a lot of topics.

We covered a lot of ground.

Yeah, I mean, we covered a lot. So I'm not sure what other rabbit hole we want to open. Do you have anything in mind?

I mean, the other thing that's popped up multiple times on the thing is the sales mentor and the sales coaching. You know, maybe. Do you have any advice on sales? I know that's the most broad question on earth, but, like, what are some of the biggest hangups that you help people overcome when it comes to sales?

The Problem with sales is it changes based on industry a little bit. And there's a lot of sales trainers who say that it doesn't. And the only industry they're in is training sales. So you can kind of see the differences in somebody who actually does it in multiple places. And what we try to do is we really try to train philosophy first and the ability to become a servant to the person on the other end of the phone. In fact, there's a really good training we have called Reflex. And maybe we could give to your crew.

I can get Gabriel to just give you the trainings. And whoever listens to this could just get an unexpected perk.

Thank you.

But in that I basically talk people through, you know, I kind of. I hate to say it was accidental, but it was sort of accidental with the way I was, the way I grew up. There's a little bit, like, I worked in a church, right? And like, I didn't make any money. And then I got into real estate and started dealing with all these wealthy people. And even back before then, like when I was 12 years old, I tell stories of my dad taking me to John Maxwell conferences and how much I hated it. And just 12 years old, I'm like, what? This is an old man on a projector. But when I got into sales, it was like I reinvented it because I needed to, because I didn't know any other way to do it. And it became all about philosophy. You can look through reflex and it's like the power of being able to get through, you know, Ray talks about second order, third order consequences, fourth order consequences, the ability to communicate in such a way that shows your prospect what the eighth order consequence is, and then partner with that version of themselves. That's philosophy. You can't really do it with tactic. And.

It'S a weapon. It's very powerful. It's also very dangerous. So this training is about three hours long. But I think the biggest thing people have in the world of sales that they get hung up on. To answer your original question, like, if I had to sum it down to, like, just one big main thing is they forsake the philosophy of servanthood. They forsake this idea of, like, if you're a sales professional, you're on the phone to enhance someone's life, family, marriage, health, whatever it is. People get into this very transactional mode. They think salesmanship is transactional and doesn't matter how good you are tactically, my people will beat the literal shit out of you because they are not transactional they have the ability to, you go into one of our sales meetings, say, how many times do you follow up with the prospect? Every single one of them at the same time will say, until. Until what? Until we get them what they need. You can tell that the philosophy of our organization is service first. It's amazing what that does. Very long answer to a very simple no.

I mean, that's, that's the perfect answer. I mean, I think one of the biggest hang ups I know I've had in the past over sales was just like getting on the phone. Like, I always thought of sales as like an intrusion in somebody's life, but the way you're angling it is more of like, first of all, you're probably, I don't know, do you, do you teach, like to do cold calling or is this more like inbound and then you're. You're calling them?

We do both. Yeah, we do both.

Because I think the cold calling element, I think, is the element that probably scares the most people. So do you have any sort of, like, mindset tweaks to think about cold calling?

Yeah, if you're, if you are, if you're cold calling someone because their kid got lost and you know, they're looking for them and you have them, what.

Are you worried about that kid, man?

Are you nervous about? Well, what if they hang up on me?

Yeah, if you have the thing that they want, they're not going to.

Yeah. You're like, hey, I know you're probably freaking out, but Sally's okay and I just wanted to tell you the address. But how good do you feel after making that phone call?

Yeah, you feel great. Yeah.

Not all heroes were capes, right? Like, man, you're just starting to walk. That's the point is your philosophy determines your comfort level. And when you're, when you feel like you're intruding on someone, rather than pivoting this around, you know, you're probably calling somebody who is not in an optimal health, not an optimal earning, they're not an optimal leader, not an optimal husband, spouse, whatever it is that you do. And you call them with the intent to service them. You know, hey, this is Taylor. I want to give you some free training if you have time for it. If you don't, no worries.

It reduces the level of psychological pain involved in that transaction. Because at the end of the day, you're doing it to serve them. And when somebody gets this, like, I can only say this because we've had, like, you know, several hundred thousand people come through the sales mentor programs. And it's just like they always think it's a tactical issue, like your audience does, but it's always philosophy. It's always mental.

I love saying that, too. Yeah, it is. And we were kind of joking before, like, ah, no, no, that is like the root, the philosophy. That's what we've always said, too. And it's. The tactics are like the obvious thing that people think. It's that whole. The phrase, the broccoli, chocolate covered broccoli, you know, so it's like, understand it both. But understand the core stuff is going to take you really far.

Right.

All right, let's wrap this bad boy up. Yeah.

Another. Another call you got to jump on. So why don't you let everybody know where they can go, learn more about you and, you know, get on board with some of your courses and that kind of stuff.

Yeah. Social Taylor A. Welch. For everything. So Instagram, Taylor A. Welch. Facebook, Taylor A. Welch. Dailymindmedicine.com is the Daily Mindset podcast. Trafficandfunnels.com wealthcaphholdings.com thesalesmanthor.com you know, it's anywhere they want to go. Figure it out.

We'll link it all in the show notes and. And also for reflex, we'll. We'll somehow figure out a way to offer that. Not sure exactly how they're going to get that, but we'll link it up in the show notes. Yeah.

Show notes page.

Sorry, I don't have a link for you.

I didn't think so. It's all good. Appreciate it, brother. Well, it's been fun. Thanks for the time.

Yeah, thanks for having me. See you.

So that was a good one.

That was a fabulous one.

Yeah.

We went a lot of different places.

To be honest. We don't release bad ones. Typically. If we think it wasn't a good episode, we just won't release it, so.

That's a good point. And we've only never released two episodes. One episode.

One or two.

At least one. I remember one. We're like, halfway through, we're like, mm, mm.

Yeah.

Like, this is. Well, we had a buddy of ours, but he'll go nameless, but he'll know. He is. He's like, do you ever, like, do you ever think the guy, the person you're chatting with is, like, just kind of full of it? Yeah, it's like, it's rare, actually, but there are times.

Yeah.

You know, and I think it's pretty obvious. Yeah.

The one guest that we didn't Ever post. We listened back to the recording and went like, this guy does not know what he's talking about. We're not going to put this out because we don't. We don't believe in this thing. But that is not the case with Taylor. Taylor was an amazing episode. We actually covered a lot of ground. We went into like a. I mean, they obviously have a pretty big business.

With a lot of different, like small, in his words.

Well, yeah, it can always be bigger.

Relatively, you know, 45 million. You say like it's small.

Yeah.

And compare that to. Yeah, J. Abraham or whatever back in the 80s he was referencing.

That's true.

180 million in the bank.

Yeah.

It's like, all right.

But I mean, I had a lot of like, sort of aha, like moments in this episode where like, he would say something and I was just kind of like, speechless. I'm like, dude, I've never actually looked at it from my perspective before. Well, when he was. Specifically when he was talking about, like, their philosophy behind creating these like, entry point products where they've got like. I told him that I've been seeing his ads all over the place. I saw one on productivity. We've seen one on.

Well, you said sales, I believe. Right.

Money mindset was the other one that he was talking about. So. Yeah, so they had one on like money mindset. They had one on productivity. They have, I think, more entry level courses on sales. But then all of these courses, the core point of having these out there is to get them prepared for their larger course. This course, like any objection you would have for their $10,000 course. Those objections are handled by going through their less expensive courses. And I thought that was like a really good perspective shift.

It was, yeah. One that stands out for me is this is higher up. Next level anyone could do it is acquiring businesses. But acquiring them not to make money necessarily. It's to save money and to leverage. One business supports another business, supports another business. And there's this more of a portfolio thinking happening. So that's his upgraded not so smaller thinking like he described. And Keith Cunningham was who he referenced the Road less stupid. And there's some other books that he's put out as well. And. But yeah, that is a totally different shift in thinking.

Yeah.

And I think, you know, that's one of the things. I think that's a realization that you and I had maybe like a year ago or so. Like, I mean, I love the way Taylor explained it. He probably explained it better than we possibly could have. But it was sort of a shift that we had where we realized, okay, we're getting all these opportunities to invest or advise or come on as partners in these various companies. And if it looked like a cool opportunity, we, you know, we'd entertain it. Right. But lately I feel like what we've been doing in our own business, just speaking for Evergreen Profits now, is we've only been looking at companies that will somehow support other companies that we're involved in. Right. So the reason we started sort of honing in on who we're speaking to, our audience of affiliate marketers and influencers and people that are looking to grow an audience and monetize an audience. Since we've been honing in on that audience, think about how it trickles down to our other companies. We have Unicorn Equity, which is a company that connects SaaS companies with affiliates. And then there's like an equity component. Well, we're cultivating an audience of affiliates who listen to this podcast so that they'll. Ideally, a lot of them will go over and use Unicorn Equity. We're partners on Members Pro, a membership platform. And one of the big reasons that we're working with Members Pro is our network and connections and our ability to bring affiliates on board. Right. So there's that. And then we're also partnered with Jay Abraham. They brought us on board because they needed help bringing more affiliates into their products. And so if we're building this podcast to cultivate an audience of affiliates and people trying to grow an audience, well, those are the perfect fit for these other companies that we have running over here. And so that's sort of like the overarching business model that we're running these days. And I think, you know, Taylor gave us a lot of, like, aha. Moments that are really going to improve the hell out of what we're currently doing.

It's just another step. It's another multiple layers. And he was even thinking, like, thinking, you know, eight layers down, like, just. And it'd be a really interesting exercise. And it's not one that many of us think to do because it's not obvious. Yeah, you kind of think of the next step. What's the next problem I got to solve with this thing with this business, with strategy, it's tactic, whatever it might be, you know, like, but yeah, that's cool. Solve that. But really, like, is it Keith? Basically keep asking yourself, why, why? Why do that here? It seems like, okay. With any opportunity that comes in, okay, cool. It's going to solve this problem. It's Going to get me there. Okay, great. What else is it going to do? Or like, what else? What else? What else? Why? You know, it kind of. It will expose a lot more of this, the steps in the future.

And then one other topic that I really liked that we were talking about sort of delegation. Right. And how there's two types of delegating. Right. There's the delegating to sort of get your hands out of something and stop doing something.

Yeah.

And then there's the delegating of the brain power delegating of the decision making. And I feel like most entrepreneurs. I might be overgeneralizing, but I feel like most entrepreneurs have gotten pretty good these days at like delegating the hands. Like finding somebody run my Facebook.

Easy.

Finding someone to build my funnel for me. Finding somebody to write an email, do the copywriting. Like, that part of business has kind of gotten easy. Right. You've got.

It's upwork, it's all the fiverr. Free up. Yeah, fiverr. You have so many. You have all these crowdsourcing sites, like the, the design one I'm blanking on, where you like 99designs.

Yeah.

Like, you have endless.

That. That piece of business. And delegation is sort of easy now. Like, everybody's kind of figured that part out.

Everyone can do it.

Even, even this. The. The stuff like, you know, booking, travel and stuff like that. You got fancy hands, which is literally like vas that will do like book calls for you and stuff like that.

It's very minutia outsource. That's great. It's gonna maybe save you time, but it also could add time to, you know, if you're not careful.

But I feel like the real skill that these guys have cultivated and really sort of figured out is how to hire and delegate the sort of mental piece of it and also having the sort of ability to back themselves out of it and go, okay, I'm gonna trust their decisions. I'm gonna, you know, I'll give them some advice and. But at the end of the day, I need to trust their decisions because if they don't make mistakes, they're never going to learn.

Perfect example was when we asked him about the newsletter. Like, I don't know a thing about it, but Mike does.

Yeah.

And that's probably an example of someone else thinking on his. On his and Chris's behalf, or really not on his behalf. On the company's behalf, on the customer's behalf.

Yep.

And they trust Mike. I'm assuming this, but like, they trust him to do the thinking and the doing, I'm sure, in some respects. So, yeah, I mean, that's a, that was, that's like an upgrade in my mind is that.

And it's quite honestly something that I think in our own business, never Green profits, hustle and flowchart, like our sort of umbrella. That is probably one of our bottlenecks. I mean, not probably. It is one of our bottlenecks is that we're making all the decisions, but we're also still kind of getting our hands dirty on a lot of stuff. And we need to get above that. We need to be the ones that are, like, thinking the high level. We're hiring the decision makers and the decision makers are hiring the hands.

Yeah, we're dipping our toe in the collaborations that we're doing with, with, you know, the folks who mentioned on the show and like what you just said there, all those projects we're partnered on, which is cool. And that's, I think it's, it's giving us a little bit more of that confidence to, you know, allow the folks on those teams that we partner with to do the thinking on that thing, whatever that thing is. Obviously we're, we're still injecting our own value and our thinking into things, but. And we had that issue in full transparency, like when we had Shannon on our team. We, she, we hired her to essentially operate, you know, all the moving parts and the things that, you know, be a manager of our business. But we still got in the middle and injected our thinking.

I don't think we put enough trust on her to make the decisions. I think that was the downfall there is that, you know, we, we, we had a lot of check ins with her. I think we probably micromanaged a little bit too much. We wouldn't let her make the decisions and make the mistakes and figure out what the next steps were on our own without us always constantly having to get our hands and our opinions and our advice in on it.

Yeah, the very last thing I want to do. I know. Or I'm watching the time here, y'. All keep the banter to about 10ish minutes. Taylor, I like that he made it very clear at the end where he was talking about, you know, strategies and tactics or philosophies even, because we prepped him. And as we told you folks on the. I think we said it on the podcast a little bit. We surveyed a lot of our listeners, people on our mailing list in our communities, and essentially more of the tactics are what was the overwhelming thing. But Taylor, Made an amazing point. I feel like without the philosophy and really the philosophy, it's the thing that people don't think they need or that you need you listening. And this isn't a jab or anything because. Because I know we've all been very tactical. I know you were very tactical. I've been very tactical in a lot of the things I'll do, just different tactics. But it's like, if you don't understand the actual philosophy, then you're not even gonna be able to dig the well and figure out eight steps later, what the hell am I working towards? Oh, you're too concerned with figuring out the best Facebook strategy that's gonna get you a click. It's like, huh, Is a click gonna serve your legacy? Unless you know where the hell that click's gonna. Like that person. Actually, it's a person, not a click.

Yeah.

That one person is going to involve in your ecosystem or your. Your portfolio of your company is like, you got to understand both. Both are not equally. I don't know what importance, but shit, you need them both.

Well, it was funny. He made a joke right before we pressed the record button, and he made a joke about, like, I got the best tactic for your audience. Get your mindset figured out.

That's right. Yeah.

Like, let's sort of reframe it though. Right. So I don't think the show is going to shift to the point where, like, we only want to break down tactics, but I do think people need steps.

Right.

So when it comes to mindset, when it comes to philosophy, it's great to talk about the bigger picture, the mindset, the philosophy of things. But people, even with the mindset and the philosophy, people are like, okay, what's the first step to help me adopt that philosophy? What's the first step to help me start to shift my brain? And I think we can get actionable around those topics a hundred percent.

Yeah. And every.

Yeah.

Philosophies can be action itemed out, I guess. You know, and because we're thinking of you listening, like all of our listeners is, we want to make sure that the notes are going to translate into an actionable guide.

Yep.

And that is a selfish way of going, saying, go get the notes if you haven't already. Hustleandflowchart.com comp c o m p. But yeah, we selfishly want amazing notes for ourselves too. But I know everyone else listening and who gets those notes and gets a membership. The newsletter wants the same thing.

Yep.

But at the same. Yeah. I just don't want to, I don't want to disregard the importance of philosophy. And I love that Taylor was basically pressing that kind of like very subtly, like throughout the whole thing. And then at the end, because I was noticing it too, the way he would mention tactics and kind of smirk.

Yeah, he was kind of, we told him our audience likes tactics. And you can tell he was kind of pushing those buttons a little bit.

I loved it.

It was awesome. And one final thing before we wrap up. This is a little bit longer now. Sure. Than we wanted. But one final thing. Easy Webinar. It's a really, really great platform. It does.

Boy, Casey.

Automated webinars, live webinars, hybrid webinars. You can send them to the replays. You can do all sorts of ninja stuff around webinars with Easy Webinar. If you go to easy webinar.com hustle Kasey over at Easy Webinar set up a discount link. I believe it's 20% off the monthly price or 25% off the annual price. So go check out Easy webinar over@easywebinar.com Hust get it.

Go, go, go get it, go get it. And lastly, check the show notes. I just wanted to make sure that you get that reflex program. We're going to go get that for you. That's something that Taylor mentioned. So I want to make sure that you're reminded to check out the show notes@evergreenprofits.com or I guess just hustle flowchart.com we'll align our bridge. Yeah, but find, find that episode and get that, get that free course. I have not been it yet, but we will.

Yeah, well, we're going to get it from him because I want to see it, too.

Yeah. All right, y', all, thank you very much. Have a good one.

Thanks everybody for listening to this episode of the Hustle and Flowchart podcast, for taking the time to listen. We want to give you something a little bit special. Every single episode that we do, we actually have somebody on our team take notes. We basically have a Cliffs Notes version of every episode where you can go and find all of the tips and tactics that they laid out, all of the readers resources that they laid out, all the good stuff from this episode. We actually have a nice simple notes version that you can find on our website. So go to evergreenprofits.com find this episode that you just listened to and give us your email address and we'll send you the notes. Thanks for listening.

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