The Art of Inclusive Marketing: Make Your Customers Feel Seen with Sonia Thompson

When we're talking about inclusive marketing, the expectation isn't that you're serving everyone, right? So as small business owners, as brands that are growing, most don't have the resources or you know, to be able to serve everyone. So it's all about being intentional about who it is that you're going to serve and the identities that you want to make sure feel like they belong with you at this point in time.

Hey, I'm Joe Fear and welcome to the Hustle and Flowchart podcast. This is where we talk all about building businesses so they give you the freedom and fuel for your life. I'm not here to help you build a billion dollar business, but I am here to help you create a business with systems that work for you so you can make more money than you need just by working part time. You know, I was a chronic Hustle mode kind of guy and I want to share my experiences and and mentors I've met along the way to help you reframe things to be the most effective as an entrepreneur. I wish I had this guidance and insight when I was younger, so that's what I'm doing here for you. Please share and enjoy.

Your sales Software shouldn't be a bummer and when you step inside your CRM you should actually feel equipped to do your best work. It's kind of like being in the pilot seat, but having all the easy to use controls. Well that's what HubSpot's doing with the new sales hub. It's all designed to have you win quarter over quarter, year over year, all the way from the intuitive prospecting workspace using AI powered tools. The point is to reduce your workflow, all the work on managing leads, the follow ups, basically making closing deals a no big deal at all. So this is how you can wrangle your day to day tasks using a seamless platform that basically navigates all the contacts, calls, analytics, all in one spot. Chat Spot is also the AI powered tool that helps you personalize a lot of things in your CRM. Basically like little assistants working for you. It's got a prompt it and basically it pulls up a contact, sums up different sales or researches your competitors. It helps you automate a lot of things during the sales pipeline so your team or yourself can take your time back. And the whole point is to make this easier and more effective for you. So this is the time for you to close more deals and get you on track for your best Q1 yet. Learn more about HubSpot SalesHub over@HubSpot.com sales Sonia, we're finally, we're finally going. We've been having a fun chat, getting to know each other and I honestly want to start this thing knowing about you because you've had like this really interesting background. You work for Johnson and Johnson, you've done some big stuff. I know you've consulted with a ton of companies with inclusive marketing and just I mean really navigating, helping others to see what the state of everything is, how they can navigate and how they can improve the lives of their customers. Obviously the ones specifically the ones that maybe have been a little bit more neglected than not. And I want to hear your journey, like how where you've started, but what also kind of got you into this space, what you've learned along the ways and then how we can bring it into the world of everyone listening here.

Yeah. So I've been a marketer for a long time, right. And whenever I left jj, it was really to go into entrepreneurship because I wanted to focus on helping brands, particularly entrepreneurs and small businesses, deliver better customer experiences. Because as a consumer who was often buying from small businesses, I was frustrated and, and I was frustrated because they were just had these great products but they just didn't know how to deliver experiences consistently that made people want to continue to give them their money. Right. So over the years as I was learning more about how to be a business owner, I started having my own experiences as a consumer where I was being frustrated because of my differences. So I'm a black woman, I'm left handed, I follow a gluten free diet for health reasons. For some years I lived in Argentina. So you know, just thinking about like doing business while in another country was, was different. Now I have an Argentine husband who is an immigrant to the US and we have a mixed race, mixed cultural, bilingual child. Right. So there's a lot of differences that I have and my lived experiences as a consumer often left a lot to be desired from when I was thinking about things from a customer experience and a marketing standpoint and as I started talking about them and I have had a column with Inc. At the time and my editor reached out and asked me if I could do an int, like write an article on a trending topic that was happening on Twitter at the time and I started writing about it and then they came back with me for something else that was kind of related and so I started writing more on those topics. I did a talk on inclusive marketing and people started responding to it and so I started to lean into it. More then 2020 happened and there seemed to be this racial reckoning and people were starting to think more about the intersection of inclusion and business and marketing. And so even though I was on maternity leave at that time, it was one of those things where this is, there's a lot happening. So I started leaning into it even more so and started writing exclusively on the topic of inclusive marketing, the intersection of customer experience and belonging and, and you know, just continuing to support my clients and business owners selfishly because I want more people to feel like they have a place there, belong and I don't want people to be frustrated the way that I often have been and just I want more businesses to see the business benefits in doing so. Yes, it's morally a great and wonderful thing to do. It also makes smart business sense. So that's kind of, you know, the evolution of how I've gotten here.

I think it's brilliant and it's needed obviously. And you mentioned experiences and belonging. So I mean like that's a, I mean it's a visceral feeling especially if you're feeling like you're not included in whatever that experience looks like in the marketing from obviously the very initial awareness all the way to you're trusting someone with your money, your time. So like what's that experience look like as well?

Unless you have experienced what it feels like to be left out or you've seen someone that you love and care about.

Be left out of something. Sometimes it's like I, I don't think that people are being malicious in their. And whenever they're excluding people, for most people that's not what's happening. In a lot of instances it's, we didn't even realize like the thought never crossed our mind that this was an issue. And for me this really started early on. I would say like in elementary school I mentioned I'm left handed.

Same.

Yeah. So you will understand this issue, I'll bet of growing up and just not being able to cut.

Well, I've got really good at my right hand now.

Yeah, yeah, right. Like so you, you are, you're using these scissors that are designed for right handers and it's not working using your left hand. So then you switch to your right hand and it's still not going so well because you're left handed. Right. And it's one of those things because the marketers, the product developers, the engineers just, they were probably right handed and didn't even think about what it was like for this 10% of the population that's left handed. And then somebody finally decided to make scissors that was just for left handed people. And then a super smart person made scissors that works for. It doesn't matter which hand you're using, they just work well. Right. But such innovation that exists. And it wasn't like those left handed people suck. Like, we just want to like keep. It wasn't that. It was just the thought never crossed our mind that these scissors aren't working for them.

That's a very good point. And then you see these like left handed stores pop up and then I find those funny. But hey, at least they're, they're trying, you know, whoever's making the products. Yeah, but you're right, there's like this complete aware, unawareness, lack of awareness, let's say, you know, of, of all sorts of stuff, let's be honest. Different issues. But that's where I love and I'd love to hear some experiences and if you're open to it, almost like allow us to experience with you what you have experienced but also others that you've worked with. Because I think that is part of the awareness. Right. It's like, it's, it's becoming aware of like, okay, how do folks feel that you're just completely literally unaware of and you're not. Yeah, it's not malicious, it's, it's just.

Kind of, it just hasn't thought of you. So, so I mentioned before I'm gluten free. Right. And a lot of times my sister is also gluten free and now my husband is as well.

I think it's honestly kind of better. I, I live. Yeah, I kind of lean that way too.

Yeah. So. So anyway, anytime we go out to eat, the process starts long before we get to the restaurant. We have to go and look on the website. Can we eat here or is there going to be something that we want to eat here? Right. Then we go to the restaurant and it's, you know, does the, the, the server understand what it is that we need to, what we need to be safe? Do they, you know, like understanding like do we get the full menu? Is it just these two things? My sister's pet peeve is there's generally a gluten free menu, but most people don't ever think of gluten free dessert. Right. So it's, it's one of those things where you always sort of feel like from a consumer perspective that you're a burden, that you're getting sloppy seconds and it's frustrating because in a lot of instances, people with differences still have to pay more. Right. Like from as a, you know, the gluten free stuff costs more and it's less than, and sometimes I don't want to say lower quality, but like the experience is not at the same level as other people.

More work for them. Yeah, you feel like a burden.

Right. I did a survey for a talk that I did a couple last year. It was about bed and breakfasts. And I wanted to find out from consumers how they felt like I wanted to hear examples of when they felt like they belonged at bed and breakfast or inns and things like that in hotels and when they didn't. And one woman who had dietary restrictions and there was all kinds of people who filled this out, she was like, I'm tired of paying for stuff that I don't get. So if you go to a hotel and breakfast is included, but there's no breakfast that you can actually eat, it's one of those things where you just always are feeling cheated, like a burden or an outcast or just like not normal. And I don't think that people understand and I say norm normal in air quotes here.

Sure.

But like I don't really. I think that people, until they experience it themselves or it's somebody, their loved one, they don't necessarily realize the impact that it can have on the way people view themselves, on the way in which they're interacting with the world whenever they have this sort of, I don't belong here, I don't fit here, there's something wrong with me type of feeling. And even though that's probably not the message that a brand is intending to send, that's the one that people are receiving. And it's never about your intention, it's always about the impact.

Yeah, that's a, that's a big one that hits. And how about, I'm curious, is there like an exercise or a way that you get folks to feel that experience a little bit for themselves or maybe frame it like you said with left handers?

So empathy is the foundation of it. Right. And you of course want to spend time walking a mile in the shoes of the people that you want to serve. So one thing point of clarification here is when we're talking about inclusive marketing, the expectation isn't that you're serving everyone. Right. So as small business owners as, as brands that are growing, most don't have the resources or you know, to be able to serve everyone. So it's all about being intentional about who it is that you're going to serve and the identities that you want to make sure feel like they belong with you at this point in time. Right? So one of the exercises that I work with and walk clients through is being very specific about who are the people that you want to serve and defining them. Because that's where a lot of people go wrong. They're or sort of get off track and end up excluding people is because whenever they're thinking about their customers, they. They're not really having an understanding of all the different identities that people have of the people who have the problem that your brand solves. So let's say you are a brand that serves women. You choose. You decided that you want to serve women. Does that include women who are retired? Does that include women who are a size or plus sized? Does that include women who are Muslim? You know, does that include women with disabilities? Right. Like there's such a broad range of the types of women. Is it women with children, women without children there? You know, it's, it's so many different things. So if we could get more specific about the different identities that you want to serve, it helps you in your marketing to be more specific about showcasing whether it's visual imagery, whether it's developing products that meets the needs of specific people. It helps you become more specific in that realm. A couple of, maybe a year or two ago, there was an. I have someone who supports me who lives in Argentina. He speaks English, but of course Spanish is his first language and he learns in Spanish. So maybe a year or two ago there was a course that came out and I wanted to get this course for him for his professional development. So I wrote the course makers and it's like by chance, like, do you have this available in Spanish? No, it's only available in English. And I'm like, like here I was like ready to spend money, right? But couldn't because they hadn't defined their user base. People who had that problem with the solve to include people who spoke Spanish. Okay, So I saw earlier this week, the same company sent out an email, hey, we've got this course available in Spanish, right? And so what happened this morning? I bought it, right? Like I bought it for the team member, right? Like they have suddenly expanded their ideal customer to include whatever psychographic model, all these characteristics they have, but also people who speak Spanish. And now they've been able to adjust their product, which really just required translations, voiceovers, et cetera, and they've suddenly opened up a brand new market for growth, which it didn't take like what they're going to make in sales pales in comparison to the effort or the dollars that they had to invest to make this specific group feel like they belong.

And my tech brain just triggered for a second there, Sonia is have you heard of this app called Heyging? H E Y G E N. Check it out.

Yeah.

Oh, it. I'll just give you a nutshell what it is and. And everyone listening. I mean, talk about inclusive. You can get any language, like taking this video. It could be translated to any language. Changing our intonation, our mouth movement.

That's amazing.

It'll match and it's pretty damn accurate. Like we've had. Yeah. Done a lot of tests, like anything. So I will check it out. Yeah. I mean, 11 labs is another. That's for audio. But like now we're living in an age where AI is getting really good.

Yeah. It's easier than ever to be inclusive. Right?

That's the point. Yes. Yeah. To your point. And it doesn't have to be so manual anymore. And it's not that expensive in the grand scheme. And you're right, like the revenue wise thinking as a business owner, like, hello, you just opened up a whole new market.

Whole new market. Yeah.

Hey, I just want to pause this episode really fast and shout out a podcast that's also on the HubSpot Podcast network, the audio destination for business professionals. This one's a podcast that's hosted by someone I followed for years. Name is Donald Miller. Is the whole story, brand, book and all the different stuff online. He hosts the podcast called Business Made Simple. The premise is to basically take the mystery out of growing your business. And he recently had on. One of the other guys I follow is Alex Hermosi. And right at the beginning of the year, they're talking about facing uncertainty in your business. And Alex and Donald, they talk about different ways, four different ways to basically shore up your business to. To ride the uncertain times that inherently are the ones that we're living in in 2024. So make sure to go check that out. Go listen to business. Sure. Made simple that episode with Alex Hormozi, but also the other ones. Wherever you get your podcasts, are you looking to earn more online? It's time to meet Kartra. It's your ultimate all in one business platform that makes it even easier to boost your income online. So with Kartra, creators, coaches and experts can turn their knowledge and services into profits. You can create pages, funnels and attract customers, build membership sites sites and share your knowledge, automate your business so you can free up your time and do a whole bunch of other fun stuff. So Kartra has every tool you need to grow your business in one place. And the best part is that it's super affordable and easy to use. So now's the time to streamline and scale your biz. Head over to hustleandflowchart.com Kartra and snag a free 30 day trial. Again, that's hustleandflowchart.com K A H RTRA. We see things like the typical is like identify your avatar. You know, in marketing I'm sure everyone's heard of that. We all have our own thing. But I feel like there's. Yeah, it's a disservice when it's like picture that one person you're going to serve and it's like, well yeah, it's impossible, obviously.

Yeah. And you know, like we're just overall like everybody has something that's different about them. Like nobody wants to feel invisible. And like I said, the idea isn't that you just, you know, we serve everybody and we adjust everything to make sure that everybody feels like they belong. That's a tall order. But if you start becoming more intentional about being clear about what are those identities that you want to make sure that feel seen, then you will start to adjust the way in which you operate so that they'll see them. Now one other caveat I think that people might wonder. Well, if I start focusing my intention on this group of people who, let's say, you know, they are a minority, right? Like they're not the, the, the masses, will I be alienating them? And in most instances, no. Using that gluten free example for a restaurant, like if, for having gluten free options on the menu, doesn't mean that people who don't follow that diet won't come. If you offer a Spanish language version of your course or your product, it doesn't mean that as an English speaker I'm going to feel like it's not for me. You know, as long as it meets your needs, it doesn't matter who else, you deserve better. That it serves a broader group of people right.

And I feel like it's, they're, they're innovating in whatever way. And I don't even know if that's the best word but at least like you're, they're not stale, they're, they're actually still, they're listening to maybe feedback from their customers. And yeah, that kind of leads me actually to Kind of a question and almost what we talked about. Maybe this is like an assessment or audit kind of conversation. Now. It's almost like, figure out the lay of the land. And I would assume a lot of that is talking with the people that buy your stuff, who's in your community.

Absolutely. So I recently introduced an offering which are like, inclus inclusive marketing assessments. I think of them as like friction finders. Right. How do we eliminate the friction that exists in the customer experiences that we're currently delivering specifically for people from identities from. From underrepresented and underserved communities? So, as you're thinking about, all right, we've decided these are the identities we want to serve. We want to make feel like they belong with us. It's a really good idea to then go and audit your existing customer experience through the lens of those identities to see how well are we measuring up to what it is that we're offering. So we talked a little bit about Spanish speakers. For instance, I did an audit of some brand websites with a Spanish speaker, and there were some brands that had done all the work of translating their website, having it available in Spanish. But what happened? They put the link to translate the website in the footer of the website, which. How often do you go and look at the footer?

We have no attention span these days as humans.

Right. So they had already done all this work and, you know, just a simple thing of placement made the Spanish speaker feel like, I'm not important. Oh, it's not available. And they. Off they went, you know, searching for another option to get their needs met. It's the same type of thing. Whereas I think small little things impact people and their identities in different ways that we might not even realize. There was one woman who, she was hearing impaired, and we were going through some popular podcasts, and she was like, well, I would never go for this one, because in the show notes, there's no transcript. You know, let's say she heard from one of her friends, oh, my gosh, this is such a great episode. You should check it out. She goes to check it out. There's no transcript, so she can't check it out. Um, and so one of the podcasts that we audited had a YouTube or a video version of the podcast. So she clicked on the link, she went over, and she found that there were subtitles or closed captioning available. So she was able to get the information that way. But it's just one of those things where the customer experience is one where whether you've been Thoughtful about it or not. People are experiencing it in a way that unless you're asking them, you. You might not ever. Or specifically asking them from the lens of their identity, you might not know how that lands on them.

I think it's brilliant. And like you said, small things like that will leave these bigger impacts that you may or may not ever hear about from your customers. And actually I had that same exact thing with a training product years back where I had a customer reach out and asked about closed captioning. And yeah, it's not always default for like a video player, especially YouTube. I know it's a little easier and yeah, but it's automated. But let's say Vimeo or any of these others like that you embed in a training platform and maybe you hide all the player like right. Put the CC on there, you know, at least like help people out. You never know. It's not hurting anybody.

I was talking with the same woman as we were doing a couple of different audits and she was just saying like for even courses that she is thinking about taking, if they don't mention accessibility features on the sales page. Unless she really wants it. If she really wants it and she doesn't see on the sales page, she might message the person and ask them like what are those things? But we can't expect that people will do that. Right. But you won't know to like if it's. This is not your everyday. If you don't have people on your team who have those identities, it might not be something that you would even consider. So that's why it's helpful to, you know, do some type of audit and if you need assistance with the audit, get some support in helping you do that. So you know, what are the things that you might need to adjust?

And that's exactly what I was going to ask you is like what are, what are some of these small things? But even before that, I know you do have a resource and assessment shout that out for us or at least point us to that where folks can dive in. Because I want to do the same to almost figure out the lay of the land now and where. Where we can go from here.

Sure. So one cool thing, I do have a cli. A quiz. It's called what inclusive brand type are you? Right. Because not every. Shouldn't be a surprise. Every inclu. Like every company, there's not just one type of inclusive brand to be. There are different personalities. So I've defined four of them. So there's a super fun quiz that I've created, if I do say myself, that will help you identify what your brand type is, and then that will help you think more specifically about, okay, what are the identities that I want to serve? And then what might I need to do to start thinking about how. From that audit perspective, whenever you get the quiz, you'll also be a part of the inclusion marketing newsletter. So you'll get, like, lots of cool little tips. You'll get, like, you know, links to a lot of the stuff that. That will help you build an inclusive brand and grow and serve more people.

Beautiful. So it's like both two birds, one stone right there. So, yeah. Cause I was gonna shout out the newsletter and of course, your podcast. We're both on HubSpot, so give a little shout out there and. Because I know you go deep on all of these things. So it's like, that's where, like, start here. And I love the whole assessment audit. Go, go check that out and I'll shout out your website, inclusionandmarketing.com get you there. You'll see all the goods. Of course. Course. Let's talk about some of these little things, like, let's, let's. And I like the fact that. And you keep reiterating it, but it's identifying who are the identities you want to serve. And I think that's key to understand with inclusive marketing is, like you said, it's not everyone, but it's identifying, I guess, the core identities. Right?

Yeah, it is. It is. So once you do that, you can figure out what are the little things that each of those identities need. So from it, if it's from an accessibility standpoint, there are simple things like transcriptions, captions, making sure you're not putting things in all caps on your website. Right. Like yelling at you. Right, Right. It makes it harder for people to read.

If you're thinking about supporting the LGBTQ community, what are things that you can make sure that you're doing to ensure or to signal to them quickly that they are safe? Right. That they are safe and supported or that you have considered them? There was something. I was doing an interview from a user test with one consumer, and we looked at a form, and just by the way the form had asked questions about gender, he knew that they hadn't really thought about this particular community just from a simple thing with those questions that they were asking. If we think about people of color or even just anybody from an identity that's historically underrepresented, think about the importance of visual imagery. People need to see themselves or who they aspire to be reflected in the visual imagery that you put forth. I was a speaker at a conference a couple of years ago. I always laugh at this because I'm like, is she. What is she saying? Right? She was saying, like, man, the content of this conference is a virtual conference. It was fantastic. I loved it. But you know what? Until Sonia came and she said, I felt invisible. Why is everybody who was a speaker here under the age of 30? And so she's like, ageism is real, like, especially in the digital world. So I don't know, she was maybe like 48, right. And so. But she felt invisible because she didn't see people who looked like her. Right. So I was doing some user testing on a social media website for a hotel, and there was a woman who, she was 45, 46, and she was like, I mean, why does everyone here look, like, on the photos of this hotel look like they're 20 and 30? Like, is this for people like me? And so there. But if you don't think about, oh, well, we want to cater to the 44 and up crowd. That doesn't mean that, you know, Gen Z is not welcome. Right. But if we want to make sure that this group feels seen, we have to give them imagery. And it doesn't mean that it has to be all of it, but we need to give them some imagery that they can latch onto to let them know that they're welcome. And. And that I think sometimes even people think about or forget to think about imagery of your testimonials, because people need to know that people like me have achieved success with whatever it is that you're offering. Right. Like, I remember I bought a course one time, and I officially, like, it wasn't a cheap course, but I officially was like, okay. Because I saw there were a number of black women who had given testimonials, and I was like, all right. Like, it. It just made me feel like I felt seen. I felt like our people like me have achieved success in this type of program. So just being thoughtful about. Of course, you can only give testimonials of people who have actually been your customers. But the more inclusive you are with your marketing, the more will diversify your customer base, which will give you more opportunity to have testimonials of those people. So it's kind of like a chicken or an egg thing, but it really is.

Yeah, but at the same time, like you said, it's. They don't need to be like broad stroke signals. They could be subtle signals. And and because I feel like, yeah, when you're feeling underrepresented and obviously, correct me if I'm wrong at all, it's like, yeah, you take a subtle signal and you're like, okay, boom. They, they have been thinking about this for. Or maybe not. Maybe it's just, you know, who knows? But either way, like, you're safe, you're seen, you're, you're here, you know, and that's. Every human wants to be safe and seen.

Right? No one else is going to be put off by, like, people are looking for what they need to take the next step forward. So if you've got a pretty diverse audience in terms of, you know, who. The types of people who have successful people are looking for that person that they identify with. So it's not, there's no harm. It's just only going to help your sales in the end and your conversions.

And I mean, happier community, happier experience. I mean, yeah, we're all people at the end of the day. And I know, like, sometimes I feel like, and I say this often, it's like in this digital space, we're working at home or solopreneuring, like, which is probably the hardest thing for most people to ever do is like you're kind of in your own little bubble in a way. You know, it's hard to remember there's people across the screen and it's this little barrier, but it's not really a barrier. It's. It's more accessible than ever. But we just, I don't know, we just forget some of the subtle parts of being a human at the end.

Absolutely. Absolutely.

Well, Sonia, this is, I mean.

I'm rethinking in a lot of different ways and I love the approach that you're taking and the fact that you are, I mean. Well, tell us, I guess, how you're helping businesses now. So anyone who wants to go further with you, check out the podcast, the newsletter audit. How are you serving them? And kind of some of the, I guess you've given us some cool case studies, but like, yeah, kind of like the eye opening or some aha. Moments you give to businesses.

The way I want people to think about it, especially as I've been working more with clients, is this requires like, this isn't like a checklist, right, of, of steps that you can put forward. This requires a mindset shift and a transformation in how you show up and operate. So a lot of times, whereas when people are thinking inclusive marketing, a lot of times they're thinking about like the End result, like, oh, let's work on this visual imagery. Let's, you know, do some things which very important, social media in, like, your language, et cetera. But a lot of the work, 80% of the work is internal in terms of what are the things that we can do to make sure that you're delivering this consistently and you're doing it in a way that's going to resonate with people. So whenever we do the audits, for instance, yeah, you're going to get feedback on the external part of it, but I'm also going to look internally on the systems that you have set up so that you can do this on a regular basis and you're getting the inputs that you need. And. And so that's one of the things that I think that a lot of people probably don't realize, but it's just, it's. You're building an inclusive brand, not just doing inclusive marketing.

I love it. Yeah. And I mean, everything always starts with mindset at the end of the day. So, yeah, it's needed. So thank you for that, too. And I want to dive in and genuinely. Yeah, like, just go all in on it. Because your podcast has been really, really cool to check out. I mean, the fact that you have all these resources, you make it accessible, which I think is awesome. And people appreciate. I know I do. So it's been fun chatting with you here and thanks for being just a wealth of information and also experiences like sharing everything from your side of things and your clients.

Oh, good.

This has been fun. Of course.

So glad. Yeah, it's been a lot of fun.

Well, go check out again. Inclusionandmarketing.com go check out the podcast. Get. Get that assessment, the quiz on there. There's a lot. It's a whole rabbit hole. So go join Sonia and appreciate you very much. Thanks for your time.

Thank you.

All right, all right. That's what I got for you today. And remember, it's not all about living to work. It's all about working to live if you need to do the work. But, you know, work can be fun and it should be fueling for your life. So if you enjoyed what you just heard, if you. If you got some nuggets of wisdom that you want to share or you're just noodling on right now, please go tell others. The way that people find this show and how you can help others get their aha moments is through word of mouth. So if it is telling your friend, telling your family, send an email to your list writing a review or whatever it might be. Everything helps. So thank you so much for listening to the Hustle and Flowchart podcast, and I will say see you next time.