The Burnout Battle: Anfernee Chansamooth's Journey to Slow Growth and Finding Purpose

If we go back to 2005, I had my first real burnout where I ended up in hospital and had a brain surgery for five hours.

Oh my gosh.

And that's when I was doing the same type of work 60 hours a week. High level.

Hey, I'm Joe Fear and welcome to the Hustle and Flowchart podcast. This is where we talk all about building businesses so they give you the freedom and fuel for your life. I'm not here to help you build a billion dollar business, but I am here to help you create a business with systems that work for you so you can make more money than you need just by working part time. You I was a chronic hustle mode kind of guy and I want to share my experiences and mentors I've met along the way to help you reframe things to be the most effective as an entrepreneur. I wish I had this guidance and insight when I was younger. So that's what I'm doing here for you. Please share and enjoy.

Hey.

Hey. This episode is with a friend of mine. This is a round two episode. So you might have heard him before. His name is Anthony Chantenmuth. He's a master when it comes to basically customizing strategies for or you. For him specifically, he's all about service based businesses. He's very intuitive. He can kind of connect all these dots. He's helpful when it comes to building trust, attracting leads and generate sales. But your way and in this episode he's gonna dive into a whole bunch of different models that you can swipe and deploy for yourself to kind of re audit or audit to audit what you're doing currently. And maybe you had something you've been doing, it led you to burnout, it led you to whatever kind of falling apart, not feeling great. Well, this is your chance to recalibra things and use some AI tools as well. He gives a whole bunch of examples here and how you could swipe and deploy yourself and go check out theauthenticmarketer.com hustle or slash, Joe. Either should work and you'll see a bunch of resources he talks about and mentions in the episode. All right, let's get into it now. Anthony. We're back. We're live. We're recording now. Round two. Yeah.

Yeah. Back to the future.

We're back. We both had some, you know, some waves happen between the gap here and all for the better, I would say.

Let's talk about awesome to be here, Joe. Round two. It's almost like we survived the pandemic.

I hope so, man. It's. There's. There's always a wave of something on the horizon. But yes, the pandemic definitely strengthened us, that's for sure. I'd say.

Yeah. And it did, you know, to be honest, it didn't feel that way. You know, it was a tough period. If we go back, you know, even 12 months, where are we now? We're in March and yeah, last. This time last year, I was a mess.

Same. I felt my heart was pumping out of my chest half the days and I was doing stuff I wasn't made to be doing. I didn't realize that at the time though. Definitely it was an unconscious thing. So we're gonna bring that stuff to more conscious. I know for, you know, you got some stuff up your sleeve. We've been chatting about, you know, where the idea is kind of know thyself a little bit. Like, I think all of us, we've been through a lot over the last handful of years and, you know, it shows up in different ways, but we know what the heck or who we are and then how we can place ourself into any kind of box throughout life. I think it gets a little bit more fun. It's almost like gamifying life. What. What should I should not do, you know, and watch my energy level go up and down, stress level. But at least that's how I've been approaching it. I've been trying to kind of measure and really be attuned with what the heck I am doing. But let's talk about. I want to go back to like, I guess that last year, what, what happened? You know, you said it took about what, six years to get to that point and then burnout happened. So tell us about that.

Yeah, so I, you know, to give some context to people who don't know me and sort of my background, I essentially work in the world of marketing, similar to where you are placed. Online business, this kind of thing. I ran my own content agency for a number of years. Started off, actually started off as the marketing manager in a co working space in Sydney. And I did that for a couple of years full time doing 60 hours a week. And I hit my first burnout since I left corporate.

Hey. I wanted to pause this and give a quick thanks to my friend Greg Merrilies and his team at Studio One Design. They're the ones that built my website over@hustleandflowchart.com I couldn't be happier. They nailed it. It looks so professional. They basically read my mind. On the vision and they executed it beautifully. I now have a perfect offer to display. It looks super clean. I've already been getting a lot of people asking all about it and I've been referring everybody to Studio One. So they actually put together a quiz for you if you're looking to optimize your current website or build a new one as a full quiz that gives you a ton of results on how to improve and optimize what you're doing. So go complete that quiz@studio1design.com design joe that is studio the number one design.com joe. It'll give you a free report after you finish that quiz. He's also given away some cool bonuses, so go check it out@studio1design.com Joe if.

We go back to 2005, I had my first real burnout where I ended up in hospital and had a brain surgery for five hours.

Oh my gosh.

And that's when I was doing same type of work, 60 hours a week. High level, you know, Fortune 500 company, high level stress, partying every weekend, just drowning everything, drowning sorrows in alcohol and other things. I vowed at that point in time that I would never allow myself to go back into that state. Fast forward, you know, a few years later, almost a decade later, and here I am again. But this time I'm not in a large corporation. I don't have all the additional benefits of being in that kind of role. And I'm running my own business. And slowly but surely I put myself in this position where I'm just drowning. And, you know, it's different when you have 200 staff and, you know, or a team of 20 or whatever you have in that kind of environment where now you're running your own team and you've got maybe five staff. And you know, for me, I had a team of, at its peak, the business had a team of eight, including, I mean, being writers, editors. I had my, my wife on as my sort of partner in crime, CFO and COO kind of role. I know you've spoken about how, you know, you and your wife have copreneurship.

Man.

Yeah, ye.

A lot of people do it.

Yeah. And that, you know, that caused challenges with the marriage and other things going on. Then at one point she actually resigned. Like, she actually basically left a letter on my board and I woke up one morning and a handwritten note saying, I'm, I'm resigning.

That's awesome. She said that though. It sounds like. I bet that was like a. Oh, that's an awakening. Moment. Like what?

Holy crap, Joe. Like, that was just the most emotional moment of my life other than proposal. We should bring her on one one day to have a chat about that. But anyway, that was just insane. But, you know, she did it and she basically said, I'm doing this to save our marriage. And that. Then I went on to, okay, I'll do next couple of years. This is. That happened two or almost three years ago. And then I kind of went solo from there and I dialed everything back. The pandemic hit. I lost a major client. So I actually had signed a contract. So December 2019, I signed a contract to work essentially to become their CMO and work full time in the business and be on a salary and have some benefits and all these kind of things being the intrapreneur. And then the month later, you know, this thing happened around the world. You might have heard of it. Yeah, yeah. And they basically said, okay, we're not moving forward of this project and we're going to put you on a casual basis now. And so my income just plummeted, like in one conversation. And I just decided at that point in time I need to start scaling back my operation because our expenses are exceeding our, you know, our income. I had to let go of my team. I had. Everything just went like, downhill from there. And I. And I. I just went through a dark period of evaluating what am I doing with my life. Like, it's been six or six and a half years since, you know, I promised my wife when we met, when we got engaged, I said, you know, this business will do well. Three years, we'll be fine. I'll replace the salary from. Because she met me when I was working at the old role, that role with the working company. And she saw me burning out there and she said she's. She actually encouraged me to resign.

Right.

She said, this isn't good for your health or our relationship.

You know, it's not a win here. Yeah.

Yeah. And I took that on and. Yeah. And I launched what was called Simple Creative marketing launched, you know, within a week. Week of me leaving that. That job.

You got that motivation, back against the wall kind of thing.

Yeah. You know, and, you know, we had a wedding coming up in six months. I'm like, I need to make some money for the wedding.

I was in a similar boat when I started too. I didn't have a business, but I just, yeah. Quit the job, all that. It was like months before getting married right after I graduated university. It's all the reverse. Things that should Happen.

Exactly. So and I got a part time role, like a part time. A marketing consultant during that stage. But anyway, during the like 2019, lost the role, lost the team, you know, some lost a couple of clients and my income went downhill and I just went, okay, like, do I try and hustle hard or what's going on here? And my body started playing up. I started getting these niggling. Like my ankle started hurting. His knee injury, you know, And I can't run anymore. I can't ride my bike around town. I'm like, what is going on? Like, things start break. And then it kind of all came to a head when I realized, and it's. You mentioned that you had a chat with James Schramko recently. I was like having conversations with some of, some of the members in his community and just realizing that, hey, I'm not thinking straight. Like my, there's something going on in my mind and my mentors and I feel like I'm in a car driving into fog and I just can't see where I'm going, you know, and that feeling of being lost, you know. And it's interesting when you say no thyself because I, you know, I spent the last 20 years really trying to understand who is, who am I, what are my capabilities, what are my skills, what do people know me for? Why do people come to me for advice and these kind of things. And I thought I had it dialed in. Like, you know, I thought, okay, I've got it. You know, the market, the business is working. I've got good mentors like Sramco and, and you and other people around me. And then I start, started noticing hold up. Not only is my world falling apart, but other people's worlds are falling apart at the same time. So this is not just an isolated case, but we weren't all talking about it like, like people were going through this phase. And it wasn't until really this year, in recent couple of months, even when you started, when you and Matt had the announcement, I was like, holy crap. Like you guys are going through that. But like, not what. I didn't know that. And I'm sure you didn't know what was going on with me and other people. Like other people in my circles. Same thing happening, right?

Yeah.

Yeah. Basically, I just got to a point where I decided. My wife and I, we were in lockdown in Sydney two years and we're, we're like one of our values is adventure. Like as a couple, we love to travel. We love freedom and adventure and you know, from the moment we got married, like we jumped even a month after our wedding, we jumped on a plane and became digital nomads for 18 months and went around the world. Yeah, right. And I ran a business from my laptop and like that, that was taken away from our lives and we struggled. Now I think Cindy did better than I did during that period. But for me, I really felt it. I was like, you know, I got to get out of this city. I don't want to make it sound like Sydney is a terrible place to be during a lockdown, because it's totally not. We were right by the water, by the bay. We had a daily walk. Yeah. Like one thing, one practice that we developed in that period. My wife and I was daily walking down by the river together down by the bay. And we had that connection time between. Between us as a couple. And that's so valuable. And we still maintain that. Now we're doing evening walks and morning walks together at the same time. I felt. And we both kind of felt this like, itch to get out of there and go explore. So when the time came and we were out or we looked like we were out of, you know, the woods, we booked a one way ticket to actually. We actually went to Portland, Oregon.

Oh.

And yeah. Yeah, we went to the last World Domination Summit. Are you familiar with that event, Joe?

You know, I think you messaged me and I became familiar because of you, but I think it was the very last one, right? You said.

Yeah, yeah. So Chris Gillebo, who wrote $100 startup and some other books, he's like one person that I know that actually went has traveled to all other countries on planet Earth. Like he's done it. He did it in his early 20s, I think. And then he wrote a blog blogging about it and he became one of the old school travel bloggers slash travel hackers.

Ye.

And you know, he wrote about using points and all these other things. Anyway, he. He put on an event called world domination summit 10 years ago. It was the first event and so. And it became an annual thing. Started off similar to the way Burning man started off with just a small group of people in Portland and then became this huge thing and you know, hundreds of. Yeah. Thousands of attendees and you know, 20 speakers and all these kind of things and think of any of the, I guess, influences that. That we kind of know of in our space, more in a personal development and on a small business space. But they. They probably spoken on stage at World Dimension Summit at some point.

Nice.

And. And so this, we were supposed to go. We bought the ticket back in 2018 for the final event was. Which was supposed to happen in 2019 and then the pandemic happened. So then they basically delayed it until you know, it was, they were able to put it on. And so this year or last, sorry, last year, 2022 was the last event. Initially we were not going to go. We had the ticket but we were thinking, oh, we're not going to go. We, our thoughts were cast towards going to Vietnam, that's where Cindy is from. And we, we enjoyed it last time we came here and but you know, I couldn't get a, I couldn't sell the ticket. So I tried to sell the ticket for you know, like half the price, one third the prize, whatever. No one would take the bloody ticket. Our tickets. And so as soon as like, well, we paid just some good money for that things like we're going.

Get the heck out of here. Let's.

Yeah, yeah. So we got our one way flight to, to the States and then we went to the event. And it was the best thing at that point in time just to experience a resurging of this energy of people reconnecting in person, you know, a community of adventurers and entrepreneurs coming together and just having fun and having like. I experienced my first ever men's circle where I stood in the park with a group of men facilitated by, I guess he's a male masculine energy or male energy coach or something. And we were, and it was a very vulnerable. Everyone was just sharing like this is the shit that I just, I'm going through as a man and it's, it's such a powerful experience to have. If you're a guy, you're listening to this and you've never had it. I highly encourage you getting yourself into a men's circle and make that a regular thing if you can. Because we just, we kind of, you know, try and be this tough macho dudes and we try to, you know, fight the battles for our wives and our families. But who's there to support us in, in the challenges, those struggles, right? Like who do we talk to? And, and most of us have buddies that we go to, but it's different. And when you have a space that's designed genuine like specifically to bring the out and specifically like this is who I am and who I think I am and and be have mirrors to say, well actually you're more than that, you know, and you're much more than what you see and what you're Experiencing. And by the way, you know, those struggles you're having with your wife, your kids? I'm having those, too.

That's the big piece right there, man. And I'm actually in, like, a virtual one right now. There is a retreat in a couple months where to be actually in person down in Costa Rica, which is pretty cool. I'll just give them a shout out. It's extremely conscious. And. Because I've had Trevor Turnbull on the podcast. One of the guys. Exactly. Same thing. And that's what we're all. So we talked about and even talk about with James Schramko and all. There's. Yeah. When you have that vulnerable moment, especially as men, and I know there's a lot of men listening. There also are women. But, like, I know us as men, we. We almost, like, try to just force it to happen ourself and think we. We know the way. We're problem solvers, you know, and, like, I don't need to talk to someone or get help necessarily. This might be internal chatter, but, like, when there's other people and there's mirrors and people that actually listen to you, all of a sudden you're just like, everything gets a little easier. And usually the wives or the partners are the ones that want you to go take that leap anyway and give yourself permission, you know, And.

Yeah, and that's the thing. Like, you know, it's not to disclude women from the conversation because, you know, it's. It's. We're learning, and we've never been taught that. First of all, you know, as a man growing up in Australian society, and I assume in the American society, like, it's not manly to cry. It's not manly to, you know, behave in certain ways and to share your feelings and be vulnerable and these sort of things. Yeah. And it's just. Just having that space and just. Just hearing that, hey, man, like, you're actually doing a really fantastic job. Like, I think we can be our own toughest critics. Well, we are. And, you know, we look, we see. Something I do a lot is I compare myself to the other guy. Like, you know, the other awesome man in my world, you know, whether it's a Joe Fear or Ashramko or someone else, and going, why aren't I doing $20 million in reven. All these. Whatever these numbers are, you know, why don't I have this awesome community of, you know, 200 members at a conference.

And then just go, yeah, yeah.

And you know what? I have the house, the picket fences, the cars, and all these things. And then you realize, actually, and this is the question you got to ask, and this is what came up for me during. During my, you know, the last year is what's really important to you, you know, like, what. What are your core values? Now, you might have done this exercise ten years ago or five years ago when you started your business or your career or whatever, you know, when you got together with. Right. But we evolve as human beings, and so, you know, you want to just re. Explore what does it mean to you and the behaviors that you're going through. So for me, I went through this exercise of understanding, first of all, how did I get to the stage where I'm burnt out, right, Where I can't think straight? And I really. I lost any emotion for the business, like, for the work. It's like I'm kind of over this marketing thing. Like, you know, as a marketer, I'm like, I'm just sick of all the. That goes on and, and all this unethical stuff people doing and, you know, trip wires and, you know, all these other things that are going.

Urgency or scarcity, all of that.

Right. And. And that's the stuff that we learn along the way. And it works. Right. People would not teach it if it didn't work. Right. And they wouldn't make money from it if it didn't work, that's for sure. But it just. Something didn't sit right with me. And, and one of the reasons why I resonate with, you know, people like you and James is because you tend to do things in a more authentic way because you're like, well, actually you can still grow a good business and do good things and be in alignment with ethical values and treat people with respect.

Right.

And not assume they're just like dollars in your wallet, you know, and we saw that. Yeah, and I sure you saw a ton of that when you went into the crypto space in the web3 space.

Yeah, that was all rampant, man. And I look back occasionally at those still, and there's luck. Luckily, a lot of that has quieted down because of scams or whatever reasons last year in that space. But, yeah, that's. I think that's what was also triggering me. I was like, okay, we thought marketers or some marketers can be really shady or bad. And I love marketing and marketers, by the way, and I know you do too. But at the same time, yeah, you go to crypto and you're like, holy moly. There's a whole nother level, man. I Don't like.

Yeah. Oh my gosh. Well, I'm glad you, I'm glad for you. It wasn't, you know, you worked it out and you got out of there.

Escaped alive and stronger.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. And you know, like even just, just things like FTX going on and all these other like huge scale scams and whatnot. So, you know, I went through this process of identifying, re identifying my core values and you know, and as you, I think I shared with you my slow growth framework. Yeah, I just started talking about the slow growth framework and why I kind of developed that. One thing that I went through with my burnout was just that reevaluation of what, what. How did we, how did I get into the situation where like I was spending the last six years like chasing growth and it was all about grow, grow, grow, make more money, get more clients. Just constantly leveling up, right? Like that's the, that's the verbiage, that's that we always hear time to level up, right. Like, you know, marketing, right. Like, wait a minute, you know, is that the only way to grow a business? Like, is that, you know, what's that all about? And I started to dig into and really. So I made a decision to pause all work for four months. So basically it kicked off with us going to the US doing that trip, you know, we went to Vancouver, did a trip through, through the sort of California and then spent a month in, in SF with my old housemate that I used to live with in Toronto. It was just reconnecting with people that know. Know me well and also just being that space of let's just allow myself to breathe and explore, connected to things that I like and love about life, like good people, good food, you know, these kind of things. Entrepreneurs doing cool things. And most of the entrepreneurs at World Domination Summit aren't marketers, right. Like, they're actually doing other things. And that was nice just to be talking to those kind of people. They're like, oh, we're out here, got a business building tiny homes and we've got, you know, I'm in my RV and I drive. I just drove across the US you know, for the last five years.

Epic. Sounds awesome.

We packed all the kids. Like, I actually literally sat next as a woman has five kids and she just, she has, she lives the van life of her kids. That's because all over the US and, and she does wellness coaching and something like this, you know, and it kind of inspired me and, and gave us like just insight into what people are Doing outside of. Because you get in that bubble and if you're always surrounded by the same type of people, you always see the same things. Right, Right. And so for me, it was like, oh, wow.

Yeah.

And then my wife and I started thinking, oh, you know, yeah, we. And we've been thinking this for a number of years now, but we got more serious, like, yeah, we really need to get ourselves a tiny home in the next five years. That's the goal that we both would like, you know, to be out in nature, like, living out there. And we don't need a massive, you know, mansion or anything like this. Like, that's not our dream, dream home. And it sounds good, but that's not. Is that really what we want to be real? It's not what we want. We're actually going through a process of simplifying things and, you know, even just packing everything up and getting rid of half of our stuff and putting the rest of it into storage in Sydney and getting. Moving out, making our way from the States over to Da Nang in Vietnam, where I am now and have been since last. Last August. You could view it as a downgrade in lifestyle, but really been an upgrade in lifestyle because we're one block the beach. We've got a rooftop pool that I'll be swimming in every day.

I see you doing beach walks, sunset views at night. I mean, like, that's pretty damn good.

You know, the cost of Living here is 4 times less what I was paying in Sydney. You know, it was killing. Killing us and these kind of things. And we just, like, just starting over and then building from a good foundation of, well, this is what we care about as individuals, as a couple. And then I kind of applied the same principles to what I'm doing with my business and my career.

I mean, that story right there, I'm sure, you know, the listeners you listening there's. We've all experienced this and, you know, not only is the pandemic a factor, I know our age and like, we go through different phases in our life, different priorities and things that matter to us. You know, it could be kids, it could be a location or just a burnout incident. I mean, all of these are things that matter. And. And yeah, like, there's a time to audit. And that's what James Schramko and I talked about, is doing that for your business at least annually. But even for ourself, like, I don't think we. We take a moment, at least a lot of us don't, to slow down and Maybe not even, you know, do it for ourselves, maybe unload our brains and all. But I know what you have here. You're very systematic and that's why I want to give a shout out to so the slow growth framework. Go to the authentic marketer.com, joe, because it's right there for you. So exactly what you were just talking about. And I guess we can run through either that, Anthony, or the kind of more of that human design and all the different tools and maybe even leveraging AI to help outside things, kind of help us understand ourself now.

Yeah. So I'll just. Why don't we just quickly run through the framework and then we'll go flip over how this relates to the next thing we're going to talk about, essentially. Yeah. There's eight pieces to the framework and it's developed from the state of, you know, how do I make sure that I design my life and my career, my business and my relationships in the way that it relates to my values and what I want in the world? Right. And it's that it's like that audit that you're talking about. You know, you start off with identifying. Step one is to identify your core values and that's really, you know, what are your guiding principles in your life, you know, And I know you've spoken about this with other guests as well. When you get clear on your values, it just makes, makes it a lot easier for you to make decisions. Right. It's like if projects come your way and we get opportunities all the time, you know, and someone knocks you up on your door and says, hey, Joe, why don't you become part of my, you know, next fly to the moon crypto startup, right? And you go, no.

So you can only respond to that because you, you know what your values are and you say, well, no, that's not alignment with who I, who I want to be. So that's a hard no.

Right.

So you go through that, you ask yourself some questions like what's important to me, what do I believe in? What, how do I want to show up in the world? Right. And the one that's been on my mind for the last few years is what kind of legacy do I want to leave?

Yeah.

Right now I'm not, you know, I'm not in my 60s, I'm in my sort of mid-40s, and I'm already thinking about these things. Right. I mean, that's phase of my life. And I'm glad you brought up your age because age does role here. And you know, And I don't like to say, oh, you're an old guy, whatever, it's more around. No, you just had a stage of life where, you know, you spent the last decade, you know, you've been married, you've had kids, you, you've worked your career for in over multiple decades. Now you're probably thinking about legacy, right? So we move from core values to then defining your growth limits. Right. And here's where it's a different approach to how most startups operate, which is grow as fast as you can at any cost. Right. And that's the message. And this comes from the startup VC world and it's infiltrated its way into, you know, businesses like ours where, you know, we're not in that vc, we're not chasing investor money. Yeah, yeah, we're a small business and we're like, you know, maybe solopreneur, maybe it's partnership, you know, but for whatever reason, we kind of adopt that mentality of, you know, they call it fail fast. What is it?

Fail whatever skill fast. Fail.

Yeah, something. Yeah, yeah, often.

Right, There you go.

And it's like, yeah, that kind of works when you've got millions of dollars of investor money behind you and you can run those experiments, but when you are just not in that place, it's not that easy. And you have to remember the VC mentality is. There's a good video on this where Chamath, who was the, he worked at, he was one of the first 10 hires at Facebook. He's left now. But he talks about how the whole VC venture capital world is basically a huge Ponzi scheme. Right. And it's designed to make money for the investors and the resource, the humans that they work with. The startups they invest in are just, they kind of view them as, you know, opportunities to make money. Like it's not.

Well, the workers, the pawns or whatever you want label. Yeah.

To do because the way that they operate is they, they, they make small bets on a range of startups. They might pick 20 startups, put, you know, $10,000 or million dollars in each startup and then they know even if one of two of those wins and there are other eight fail, they've made their money back and they've made more money. Right? That's right, Right. But when you're running a small business, you're not placing that many bets, Right. Because you probably have one product or service and you're going to get that right first before you launch another five products or services, you know, and so just the psychology and the mentality and the approaches don't align. Right. So I was stuck in that world of fast growth, fast growth. Grow your email list, grow your database. Let's go 10,000, 20,000, let's go. Right? And it's like, like at the end of the day, like, can you like even name 10 of those people in your database? And would you have real conversations with them and have coffee dates and, and go out and like, take your kids and hang out together? Like, you know, is that even a thing? Right? So you got to define your growth limits. And when I say that, usually we define our upper limit. We, we, or we, we usually define our lower limit. We say, okay, we want to make $10,000 a month. Right. That, that's the, the how we do it.

It's pretty common too, that number for almost everyone.

Yeah, everyone, right. But where we burn out is because we haven't defined the upper limit.

Right.

We haven't questioned, well, wait a minute, what's my actual capacity or what's the capacity of my team? What's the capacity of my business to actually deliver great results for our clients, our clientele, Right. If you don't define that, then you don't know when you're stretched. Like, you just kind of feel like, all I need to do is hire quickly, bring someone else on, or I got to. And that's like, you know, if you, if you, you look at some of the businesses, like smart Passive Income, Pat Flynn, or you look at some other sort of one person solo businesses that have done well over time, they've gotten very clear at what their upper limits are. And Pat's like you, Joe, where he's got, you know, a few kids. When he was starting his entrepreneur journey, he already had a few kids. And so he knew, well, I, I can't just be out there burning myself because I've got daddy time, but I've got to be there for my kids.

He respects his lifestyle and. Yeah, and it's in San Diego as well. Yeah, I know.

Yeah.

Right.

And so when you can find the upper limit and you go, okay, I can only take on five clients a month. For me, as a consultant, that's my max. Right. You know, even though I can theoretically push to 7 or 10 and I can double my revenue, it's not worth it because then I can't actually give quality performance or quality value to the existing clients. Right. They're going to notice, man, your game's not right. There's nothing, there's nothing going on here. You know, and then that's what happens.

I was just gonna say really quick, like the reframe for me since my burnout because I always was the more, more, more because I did not define that. And you know, I'm great at delivering, but not when I have 20, 30 clients. That's why I'm very conscious now to I have three clients currently consulting. But then there's further opportunity, either rev share or whatever. But that's always, that's really what I want to take on is just a couple, maybe each quarter, maybe even less, you know, but with that longer term vision. So they can kind of compound more than, you know, stack and then diffuse information, you know, energy everywhere. They're all going to work together. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

And then you'll, you'll get better results with your clients. They'll, they'll, you get the word of mouth power because they're going to get out there and go like Joe's amazing. You know, and, and then you're at capacity so then it's natural for you to go, well actually I need to raise my rates because you know, like to get me, I'm not where I was two years ago or a year ago. So therefore, you know, you're naturally going to increase your revenue anyway. Right. Or if you're in Sramco's world, you're going to be talking about your ehr. Okay, define growth limits, number two. Number three, focus on positive habits. Right? And we talk about one of those already, you know, like just surrounding yourself with the right people. For me it's like have more male conversations, like real men conversations. Not just like how's the footy or how's NBA today? Like let's talk about like what's going on for you, man? Like what challenges have you got this month? Or you know, what's a block I can help you with? And I've actually got a couple of guys that I meet up on a regular basis every two weeks where we.

Just, that's the conversation accountability. It's a good open door and it's someone that's going to be real with you and that's. Yeah, you don't need a lot of people. You don't need something formal either, but it can help.

Yeah, absolutely. And also, you know, for your marriage, for me and my wife, we have those real talk conversations, you know, talking about the finances, talking about relationship. We always check in. How are we doing? How would you rate this right now? You know, where did I fall flat? Right. Because that's important. That's that's the one thing I think entrepreneurs don't talk enough about is the partner behind the scenes who's actually, you know, like, holding a ship down. Like, you know, if Cindy doesn't cook meals for me and do the things that she does, man, I can't do what I do. Right.

I would have a screaming kid running into my room right now and all these. We would not have a functional interview. Right?

There you go, number four. Right? So we've gone from positive habits to simplify your life and work. Just like you're saying, focus not on more, more, more. But how do I simplify? How do I help? I dial things down where I'm not just packing things I can. You know, you think about like a juggler. You can only juggle three balls, maybe, right. Instead of adding two more. Right. What can you do if you're gonna bring on something new? What do you need to let go of? Right? So. And being real conscious about that, you know, I think it's just easy. And then for me, like, simplifying life is more around. Well, I want to be close to water. I need to do my morning walks down by the beach, as you mentioned. That's my time for myself. It's also time for me to connect with nature and just to. To. I love being standing in front of the ocean and looking at the waves and realizing, man, like, I'm part of something much bigger than just me.

Yeah, right, yeah. That's getting out of our bubble and like out of our office, out of our house, and away from just our screens. It's going connect and experience others, flavors of the world and people.

Put your podcast on. Listen to Hustle and Flowchart. You know, do your thing like that. Number five is invest in relationships. Right? And this is what I was talking about earlier. It's not about building an audience of 20,000, right? Or 10,000. It's about, like knowing who are those individuals. Schedule Pathfinder does this really cool thing where he schedules 15 minute calls with people that as they come through his welcome sequence, it's like, hey, by the way, would you like to jump on a 15 minute, no sale, no pitch call with me just to get to know you.

Yeah, I've heard about that. I forgot about that. But it's such a great. It's what everyone should do ultimately. Like, if you're starting even from scratch, it's probably the best time. But even further, you still have the time to do that.

And that's the thing. We've heard those stories where the CEO of a large organization, they'll still get on a call with like, you know, the, the new employee who's employee number 200. Or they'll get the new client that's just come on board and just have a good chat for 30 minutes, just like, hey man, like, what are you, what are you, what are you doing? What's up? And, and people get surprised when I remember working with a CEO like that, who did that. And people would always be like writing reviews, going, oh my God, I can't believe the CEO or whoever just called me because they were just too busy. And it's like, you're never too busy, too busy to invest in relationships.

That's right.

That's number five. Number six is quality over quantity. And this is choosing, you know, it's not about bigger and more, it's about less, but more powerful, less and more real. And, and just, you know, whether it's projects, whether it's people, you know, we, we're at a stage in life where I don't need to have 200 friends. Like, it just doesn't, I'm not going to see any of them. And let's be real, if I would go into my WhatsApp or my signal, who am I really messaging?

You know, like five, ten people max, maybe.

Yeah, yeah. And so when I'm, I'm going back to Sydney, you know, next week and for me it's just for a short trip, but I, I've already reached out to those five people that I want to meet and that's it. I'm not gonna, in the past, I would have held a whole event and brought 50 people in and give five minutes, right? But now it's like, no, I want to spend an hour or two hours with each person and just connect like what you and I are doing, like, you know, like that, that's, that's, that's where the value is quality over quantity. That, you know, that's number six. Number seven is do the unscalable. Okay. And this is what total counter, the whole VC fast growth scale, as fast as you can mentality is actually no focus on, you know, things that do not scale, like getting on calls with people and having chats, not trying to push them through a conversion funnel and all these things, right? And I've actually found, I don't know if you had. But once you talk to someone and you've spent you know, even just 20 minutes with them and going, hey, what's going on with your, Your what problem or challenge do you have here? Oh, by the way, I've got this really cool tool that, that might be really good for you. And you send the link over to them and that's your affiliate commission there. Because you solve the problem based on a real conversation and not because you push them through a funnel.

I've done that countless times. Not on purpose meaning, like with that intention, but it's just to be resourceful to others and that's what people want anyway. Like that's, we all want that support a hundred percent.

And the last one, and this is one that probably I love the most, is be patient and enjoy the journey. Okay.

For a lot of people too.

We just, I, you know, we find it. And this is where I found myself. I just found it so hard to even take a holiday, like the, even just to take a day off and do nothing and just be present. Right. And just sit at the beach or at your local cafe, whatever it is for you, and be okay with it. Not, not always be in work and thinking mode.

Productivity, you know, that's not the KPI here.

That's it. Right. So that's the framework. You can go check it out in the link that Joe shared. And then. So the first step we talked about was identifying core values. Now I'm going to take you through a process where we bring in cutting edge technology. We call it ChatGPT. There are other tools like that you can use. And Microsoft is, is launching Bing Chat. Yeah. Right now it's out there for some people. But let's, let's. I've asked Joe before, do you want to give some context or. Yeah, let's go back to even asking you about human design. How did you feel about that?

I, I, it was out of, out of the blue a little bit. But obviously you were booked on this show. We were already chatting. But I mean, I've, I've done. It wasn't foreign to me, I guess because, yeah, you asked me for my birthday, the time I was born and location and that's very, it's astrological. I know there's a lot of astrology. What is the Vedic chart? Is that what it is? Yeah. So I gave it to you. I was like, okay, I'm gonna hunt me down or something. But I don't know how you would with that information. But you would know a pretty good amount about me because I've done some similar things. But this was called what, Human Design. That one. But yeah, walk me through and I guess the bigger vision of why you did that.

Yeah. So One of the things that I learned, if we go back almost six or seven years ago, I spent a lot of time soul searching, going through different types of self awareness systems I'll call it, and just, you know, we're kind of familiar with things test personality tests like Myers Briggs or the disk profiling system, which are common ones that employers and companies use to profile, help people understand their own strengths and weaknesses. But there are some other systems out there that probably, you know, aren't so common in the corporate world. Certainly not in the corporate world. And a lot of entrepreneurs might not be aware of. Right. And so going back to Zodiac, I don't know, when you were a kid? When I was a kid, I would read this thing called a Zodiac in a local newspaper when we had them and we were looking at, oh, I'm a Capricorn. And then it'll give me this really vague, yeah, you're gonna have an amazing week and the sun's gonna be in Mars and whatever. I'm like, I don't know what that means. But for our anniversary last year, my wife and I actually went on a three day retreat. And during the retreat it was a yoga. Like we would do yoga twice a day, morning and night. And then in between there were these workshops. And one of the workshop was facilitated by this gentleman who'd been studying astrology for like 50 years. And so he talked about this concept of a north node and a south node, right. And he basically, it was the first time I ever heard of this thing. And the way that he presented it was so your south node is kind of like your habits and the traits and the things that you do naturally that are actually that keep you stuck. These are the things that you have taught yourself that you're really great at. Like, for me, yeah, I'm pretty good at project management, right. Or I'm pretty good, you know, at networking, all these kind of things. Right. But is it in alignment with where you're meant to go? You know, if you believe in destiny and fate. Right. Is it in alignment with where you're headed now? Some people might be listening to this and going, oh, this is just crazy.

Madness getting out there.

Yeah, yeah. And it is, I'll admit it's a bit woo woo and whatever. At the same time, I found, I found it to be quite helpful just as a point of guidance and a reference like, okay, well you know, am I, am I in alignment? And that's the key for anything is, you know, success is not about the riches and the fame. All Those kind of things. For me, it's actually being in alignment with who I am and who I want to be and showing up in the world in a way that I work with my natural strengths, my inabilities. And then I surround myself with people who are doing that same thing with their own skills and abilities. And that's when you actually have a real high performing team. But if you have five people in a room who are not self aware, no matter how hard you slog. Right.

Disaster happens.

Yeah, right. And I'm sure you've been in those kind of environments and I have and other people listening to this have been. So that's just one system. Now when I asked you for your birth date and time, date of birth, whatever, what I was looking to get was an astrological chart. And I was going to combine that information with your human design, which is another system that was created by. I'm not going to go through the whole backstory, but basically that system is a combination of five different belief systems. Like in India you have the whole, like the deities and they've got a whole astrological system that they utilize, they use to determine people's strengths and weaknesses and direction they should be going in. Combined with the Zone, the Chinese system, there's this whole, like, basically this human design is. This guy kind of worked out if a way to combine these systems together, create a test that you can go through. It's not really a test. You're putting a date, a date of birth, where you were born and the time of birth. And then it works out similar to an astrological chart. It works out what they call your human design. And then basically it's really like a compass. I think of it as a compass that guides you towards the direction that you're meant to go in, right? So you gotta, you put your, putting your details. It gave you this chart and you said, I have no idea what this is because it's just like a picture of a human anatomy. And then it's got, you know, your.

Lines going everywhere in arrows.

Lines everywhere, right. The whole point of it is to understand the main thing you can take away from it is there are five categories or types of human designs, right? And so you've got your, your projector, right, Is one type. Then you've got your manifestos, which is another type, right? And then you've got another one which is your generating manifesters or manifesting. Manifesting generators is the correct phrasing. And then you've got your generators. And then the last one are your reflectors And I'm not going to explain all of them. I have actually an article on my site which explains all this stuff. Anyway, what we worked out for Joe was he's a projector profile and so am I. So I'm also projector now. Projectors are. Our role in the world, is to be the guides, right? So have you ever noticed, Joe, that when you learn a topic and you're, like, kind of curious about it, that you will spend days and months and years digging into that. That topic, and it drives your partner and your business partner crazy because they're like, why are you, like, so into this thing? And it's because we like to just learn and study as much as we can about a thing, right? And then we also like to experiment with that thing. It's not like we're just learning for the sake of learning, but we also like to experiment and run tests, right? So when. And this is how we kind of get into marketing. And we love it because we're like, oh, what's a lead magnet? Oh, what's a funnel? You know? Oh, what's.

You know, how to run tests everywhere.

Yeah, right. So it's all testing. And for us, it's fun to do that thing, right? The benefit is, for other people is like, well, they don't want to go for all that testing. They just want the expert who's done that stuff, right, to come in and consult them or do it for them. Can condense it or simplify it and make it so that they can understand it, you know, and so that's. That's what we do. Now where we become unstuck is when we get caught doing the non projector thing, which is to do everything else, which is like, you know, become the person who does. Who runs all the Facebook ad campaigns, becomes the person who writes all the copy, right? It's like, well, no, like, that's detail work.

I remember seeing that reading. I was like, oh, yeah, that is where I get stuck. And I feel like my energy just gets sapped out of every bit of me.

So our job is our roles, and we usually naturally go into leadership positions because we can, we. We can guide and train the next person who's meant to be in that role. Maybe they are a generator. Profile and generators have. Basically they're like a ongoing renewal battery. As they work, they get more energy and they just do more work and they're just like, they can go all day and I don't know if Matt.

Fits that profile, but I don't know.

You Just don't have team members who fit that profile. Maybe your interns. Right, for sure, yeah. And so it's like you notice, okay, there are, there are those type of people in the world. There are people who are, you know, like the manifesters are the people who, like, they just have a vision and for whatever reason their vision comes to life and you're like, how did you do that? And they, they, people gravitate to them.

And people, they're magnetic in a way.

I want to be part of your vision. I want to do, you know, I'll work 50 hours a week for you, Elon Musk. Right?

Like. Yeah, that's right.

They're working ridiculous. 80 hours, 100 hours a week.

You believe this, man? Yeah, for sure.

Because we're going to Mars. That's the vision. Right. So I worked out, yeah, we've got your western zodiac signs, so Chinese zodiac, your disc profile and your human design. Now I want to give a shout out to my man George Samuels, who basically took me through this process and he offers consultations for anyone who wants to do this stuff with him. He's like the personal branding expert, man. Like, you want someone, maybe we can get him on the show too, Joe, for sure.

Yeah.

But yeah, he's like at the cutting edge of community building technology and he basically helps companies build culture and systems using ancient wisdom. Like that's his thing.

Wow, interesting. Yeah, so he's using AI and tools like this now that you're showing us.

I won't go through his whole background, but exactly right. That's what he does. So basically just ask. Okay, well, who would embody these kind of traits? Right. So it's basically saying someone who bodies the traits of these, these things would have a unique and complex personality of various strengths and challenges. Okay. Based on these systems, this person may possess the following. They're imaginative, they're empathetic, intuitive, creative, sensitive. I've seen that side of you. Spiritual and sometimes indecisive. Or escapist. Okay, all right. So you're practical, you're stable, you're loyal. Definitely loyal. Sometimes stubborn, sometimes materialistic.

Right.

Nurturing, family oriented, emotional. Sometimes moody. You're diplomatic. Right. So you know, you're fair minded, you're artistic, you're sometimes. Okay, talk about that. Charming, sociable. So some things are repeating because it's just talking through the different systems and painting a profile. Right. Reliable. Okay. Projector. Perceptive, insightful. So this is why we make good coaches and consultants and guidance guides because we really take all the Information and data that we, that that's given to us and then we can then perceive from there. All right. Sometimes prone to burnout.

Right.

Or feeling undervalued if not recognized for their contributions. Has that come up for you before?

It's very true. And that's a pretty common one, man. In different forms. So, yeah, I mean that's where I read this. I did my own. It's funny because when you sent me this, I use chat GPT all the time. I use like the playground version of it and I immediately plugged all this stuff into it and you know, not in the same format, but it gave me all these like, what are your superpowered. All the things what you should avoid. I was like, this is freaky accurate. And yeah, and this is even more detailed.

Yeah. And so what it's doing is we have all these systems. This is the problem or the challenge that George was solving was we're all doing these different personality tests, but there's no one thing that combines them all and gives us profile and it doesn't give us a personal brand strategy. Right. Like how would you take that information and then build a career around that? Right.

And I think that's the big takeaway is like, yeah, the actionable pieces. You can use all this, this, all this stuff and branding. But also you could take it into like what business model, what role in that business or someone else's business should you do. Should even have your own business maybe. Yeah, you can ask all these questions.

You're right. Exactly right. So now I've just asked, can you give a historical or fictional character that embodies some of these traits? And so some people, like there's some coaches out there that will say, look, think of someone in the world living or past or even just a fictional character that represents kind of the embodiment of, of who you want to be or your ideal self. And this, we're getting GPT to do this and it's basically giving us. Okay, based on your kind of profile, there are some people here that have existed like Eleanor Roosevelt, Prince William, you know, known as for his caring and family oriented nature. When you did your disc profile, you came out as the, the networker and that's a high I. Which is an influence profile. Right. The same thing, you know, and so this person is humanitarian, they have social causes and that's similar to you. And when you talked about your dad and you talked about some, you wrote a book about, you know, some of.

Your experiences, did foster care, you know, like help. But Foster kids. Yeah. Humanitarian, all that stuff.

And that's. That's when you do those kind of things, the world sees really your value. They're like, this is what Joe is about. And this is the stuff how he's going to change other people's lives and have an impact. Right. They see the things that you do. Sort of your online business, all that kind of stuff. Cool. When you combine those two things together, now we've got something really powerful. Right.

And it lights us up, too. Like, I know when I'm in that mode, when I'm not in that mode, there's a disconnect. And it's not always obvious, but. But when I'm in it, I'm like, oh, man, all the dots are connecting. And this is basically cheat codes. Like, it's. It's true. So there's so many things here. I'm like, huh?

Have you ever seen the Harry Potter series?

No. And I mean, I've seen bits. And yeah, that's why I was like, man, Granger.

Sorry.

Yeah, yeah. And that's okay. Some might not resonate, but, you know, some of the traits here where it's intelligence, creativity, intuition, that's strong for that. And so if you ever watch the series, you may resonate with that more than Harry Potter. You might go, okay, I see myself more in that character.

The beautiful thing is I know you can regenerate things in chat GPT. So if you don't totally understand about. Generate it again.

Yep. One of my favorite series, I don't know if you've ever seen it, is called Avatar the Last Airbender.

I have no.

It's an animated series. I recommend you rewatch that. It's on Netflix. You can watch it or whatever things go through the whole thing with your kids, they're gonna love it. And it basically, it's like you learn. You learn a ton of stuff just by watching this cartoon, man. Like, it's so good. I mean, it's very entertaining. There's a couple of characters in here that work really well for your profile. One is called Prince Zuko. He's head of the Fire Nation. There are four nations. And they basically battle it out right over this series. And. And then this. His uncle. His name's his uncle. The character that resonate. That resonates most of you is Uncle Iroh. And he's the wise uncle that guides the young, passionate, fiery nephew who getting. Always getting into trouble. And. And Iroh is the one that, you know, comes with his calm and he just drinks his tea and he's just like drops wisdom all the time, like hey man, like you should be doing this or you know, hey, you should be thinking about these things. And to be honest, that's one like, that's one of my favorite characters in the series.

Yeah. Mentor, a guide kind of character.

Yeah, you can use GPT to do that kind of stuff. Let's go down to one page marketing plan. So if we were to build a business of Joe.

Right.

What would that look like? Or a career around Joe. Doesn't have to be a business. Right. But we're going to say, you know, if we were to create just a one page plan for Jophia, what, what would it look like? Okay, giving me, giving us some ideas of things that would work really well for your profile. Right. And not giving us other things that won't work for your profile. Right. So. And you're probably doing a ton of these things. Okay. So you know, brand, if you. It's giving us. I didn't put your name in there. So therefore it's not displaying your name. Just say Joe is a creative and compassionate individual with a talent for connecting with others. You know, if we gave it a background, it would tell us what your background was. Brings a unique perspective. Okay. What industry would you say you're kind of interested in?

I guess the industry would be. It would be consulting, you know, so content in marketing.

Do you still explore tools in that? Like are you. Yeah, look at tech in that world.

Tech. Tech would be an element of it. Yeah. And in conversion we've got to give.

It a kind of industry or an area to play with. And so we're going to go, okay, look, now you're talking about creative innovation as marketing consultant with expertise in media and tech. It's got your background leveraging your natural networking skills and ability to connect others. You build strong relationships and lead to successful partnerships and campaigns. I wonder if you've already done that in your career.

Joe.

Sounds familiar. I think I heard that guy.

So Joe's target audiences, businesses in specific industries or niches. So you just gotta identify what those are who are seeking to improve marketing efforts and stay ahead of the curve. Right. In increasing digital landscape. So you know, if you were to plug in industries or niches, then that niches that would clarify that for you. Your unique value is basically standing up in a competition because of your blend of creativity, practicality. Right. And I see that already. Right. You bring those two things together and you have this ability to connect with industry influences. Right, Right. And that's Something that you do remarkably well. So when you leverage that and your knowledge in Medium Tech, you can create strategies that help drive results.

Right.

And this is already. If you were just to copy and paste that into your LinkedIn profile, like that's what Joe's doing.

That's what I was gonna say. I'm like, you could totally use this for any kind of copy. To sell myself, yourself, whoever, and swipe and essentially, yeah, maybe study ourselves too, to just make sure. Hey, that's me locked in my mind.

Okay, now let's get practical. How do we use that? Okay, so here's the marketing strategies that would work for you. Thought leadership. Okay. Publish for leadership pieces. Well, hey, we've got this podcast that you've, you know, you've got two hundreds of episodes now. That's an example. Right. You know, maybe you do some stuff where you're writing for, you know, blog posts, whatever it is, for different publications. Right. You're speaking at industry events. Well, you know, that's what you and Matt were doing for a while. Just getting in front of people at different podcasts and different kind of things around town. Post webinars, online events, networking. You're already doing that. Content marketing. You do that really well. Partnerships. This is where you talk about Rev Share. That's a partnership, right? You talk about, okay, let's find the best partnerships where we can leverage these other strengths and grow.

I like the second point on that one. It says offer referral programs to existing clients to generate new leads and build long term. It's like exactly what a lot of it. Yeah, it's great.

There you go, man. You're on it. Success metrics, okay. Things that you and your clients would be looking for. Website traffic, generating specific, you know, whether it's revenue sale or revenue or sales targets or number of commissions or number of affiliates, whatever. Maybe small clients in specific time frame. Right. These are kind of. And that's the thing where a lot of people have personal brand strategies. They don't get into what are the metrics of that strategy that are looking into, well, how do we measure success? And it's not about 10 million followers. That's. That's not what the client's going to pay you for. Maybe they do. It kind of depends. Some people it is that. But we know you I that for a lot of clients investing money, they're going to go, well, what's the ROI of that for?

Sure, right?

And then budget. Where do you allocate your budget? Okay, you go look at your website, your social Media, advertising and other marketing expenses. And then you want to leverage low cost marketing strategies like content and networking to expand your reach. So this is kind of like, you know, quick one page snapshot. You take this, you tweak it and you know the nice thing I like about when I went through this process, it just reconfirmed that I'm already doing these things. Because the other thing that people don't pay attention to is how do I actually sell and what's the best way for me to sell? Am I meant to sell from a stage? Am I meant to do one on one selling? Am I meant to put people through some ridiculous sales funnel and do that? This, this takes your traits and goes, okay, well really for you, you need to network. That's the best way you're going to personalize communications. And a one on one touch gets you the best sales referrals. Right? Gets you the best sales. Right. Follow up. And this is something that, you know, if you have a CRM in place or someone on your team who's following up on those sales opportunities and those leads. And that's where I've dropped the ball in the past where I'm like, I'm having a conversation but I don't do the follow up and therefore the money.

Doesn'T come in 100%, man. That's where I'm like, I'm nodding because I've done all of these and I know this is my natural set. But yeah, the follow up has been the drop off. If there's no systems, maybe people to help with the deliverables even just showing up like that. There you go. So I have a question, like would this. Do you have. Because you, you write amazing blog posts and you have a newsletter. I think it goes out weekly. I just read it right before hopping on, but that's like a weekly thing. Can someone get. Do you have prompts or like these prompts here? Do you have them published somewhere that we can swipe and use or modify?

So that's coming up in an upcoming newsletter. You're giving me a sneak peek? Essentially, yeah. If you go head over to the authentic marketer.com hustle changes to Joe as well. But any of those links will work?

I think they both work already.

You can join my newsletter, you can read the framework and you can also read my epic guide. I just published this this week on podcast outreach.

Right.

But yes, I will be, I will be sharing those prompts and then also I will referring to. Be referring people to George and hopefully we can get George on to have a chat with you as well and he'll take you deeper because that guy is crazy.

Yeah, I love it, man. And when tech is combining with. With personal like what can make us better people but and also show up in business and serve others better. I'm all for man. And it's actionable. It's not woo woo for woo sake. It's like, hey, we're actually going to learn about ourselves. We're going to feel better in the process and we're going to do cool shit together. Like it's a very perfect combo, man. So I feel like that's the enough. Like that's how we can find our enough and, and feel fulfilled in everything we do.

Well, I was going to say I appreciate you, you taking people through these conversations. They're very timely and they're very important and it's like build business in your own way or your career in your own way. One of the things that came from my session doing this was that I would fit nicely in a large organization where I don't have to do those things where I'm weak at like data analytics and measuring all these numbers and these kind of things. Imagine I just had someone on a team where I'm like, hey, you do that thing man and let me do my thing.

Right.

That's where you could do thrive really well. Right.

I'm very similar. Yeah. And we're all different though. So yeah. This is where something I implore everyone listening, listening to go and test this out. Try out some of these tests. I'll link a bunch of the resources in the show notes as well, of course. So you can click around and just go explore. You'll. You'll never know what you find there about yourself. Might be something interesting. So Anthony, appreciate you brother. And get on that, that train or bus, wherever you're headed now, I know you're, you're jetting off somewhere, man. So appreciate your time again and we'll do another round soon.

Yeah, we would do. Thanks so much Joe and enjoy the rest of your week and thanks everyone for listening. Subscribe and we'll see you soon.

All right. All right. That's what I got for you today. And remember, it's not all about living to work. It's all about working to live if you need to do the work. But you know, work can be fun and it should be fueling for your life. So if you enjoyed what you just heard, if you got some nuggets of wisdom that you want to share or you're just noodling on right now. Please go tell others. Others the way that people find this show and how you can help others get their aha moments is through word of mouth. So if it is telling your friend, telling your family, send an email to your list writing a review or whatever it might be. Everything helps. So thank you so much for listening to the Hustle and Flowchart podcast and I will see you next time.

Sam.