Todd Herman - Creating New Identities to Achieve Your Goals

This is an intro. Intro, intro, intro.

Hustle and Float. Shark with your boy. My boy, Matt Wolf.

Joe Fear.

Hey, what's up, yo? How you doing?

I'm doing fabulous because we're not doing these intros at the end of a long, long, long day.

Yeah.

So I think we sound a little bit mo coherent today. Mo coherent. Nope, it's not working.

You're wrong.

I think it's a psychological thing that, like, whenever we turn these intros on and hit the record button, we're like. We're gonna sound like a bunch of idiots.

Yeah. No, that's just you.

Wow.

Intro's all yours, bro. I'm outta here.

All right. I'm just kidding. It's all love.

Oh, I'm back. Am I welcome?

I get made fun of in the episode.

That's true. That is true.

Wait for it.

All right, well, who we talking to? This is one that I'm actually pretty excited to share with everybody.

We're talking to a masked man.

A masked man?

A superhero.

We're talking to Todd Herman. This guy's a badass. But you'll get the reference a little later. He is the author of the Alter Ego Effect, which you've probably heard this reference by Matt and I and even, I think, a couple other folks as being one of their favorite books recently. That's totally still true because it's extremely practical. And Todd, he's not gonna, like, step you through what the book was in this, but I feel like, like you and I were saying, Matt, he gave a really good, I think, overall feeling of, you know, who uses this, how to use this? The power of it.

Yeah.

And a lot of ways you can just test this right now.

Yeah. I think it really touches on the essence of the book.

And basically, you get, like, three core parts. Like, first of all, an explanation of what the Alter Ego Effect is. You get a little bit of an explanation on how to develop your own alter ego, and then you get an explanation on how to turn it on and off that alter ego at will. And we really kind of dive into those three core things. And Joe and I, like you said, we both read this book. Well, we listened to the book on audio. We're actually buying the print version because we want to sort of get another modality to really lock in a lot of the concepts. But Todd does an amazing job in the hour that we have together of really sort of explaining and breaking down all of the core elements so that you can go do this. But you got to get this book, the Alter Ego Effect is such a great book.

Yeah. And it's something I know I've personally used already. And certain scenarios, like, well, I won't go into specifics, like, super deep, but like, speaking in front of certain audiences, for instance, like, where you might have. And this is the case. I'm sure we all have a little tinge of it, but like, imposter syndrome sometimes. I know Matt and I talk about all the time. We're like, wait, are we really qualified to be speaking on this stage or interviewing this person or whatever it might be, or getting the traction, notoriety for things that people. And we're like, wait, really? But, like, we take a step back and in this interview is a perfect example. I was like, no, we are putting ourselves out there. And you can too. But there's ways that he describes whether almost every celebrity out there, including, you know, Beyonce and Bo Jackson, like, we talk about them too, inside of here. Like, they had an alter ego. They had this other personality that they were embodying in that moment.

Yeah, for sure. And it's an amazing discussion. You're going to really enjoy it. We enjoyed having this discussion. But before we jump into it, I want to tell you about our notes.

I can only guess.

Well, you know what I'm about to say.

Oh, that's right.

So we. We take notes on every single episode. We actually have team members, actually. Lately, Joe and I have even taken some of these notes.

Notes are fun, man.

Yeah, we take notes on every single episode. I'm not talking about, like, the show notes where you get the links and stuff. We break down everything that we talk about on this episode. We bullet out all the tactics, any resources mention, and we do it for every show that we ever do. And you can go get those, and you can get them for free if you're quick.

Be quick, though.

If you get them the week that the episode goes live, they're 100% free. Over at hustleandflowchart.com comp c o m p. C o m P Short for companion. Also, if you go to hustleandflowchart.com companion, it will also work.

But, you know, I wanted to say confuse them.

So hustleandflowchart.com computer get the notes for this episode and, well, just like, these.

Notes are freaking awesome. Like, I don't think I appreciated them as much until, like, we.

Until you started reading them?

No.

Kind of. I'm in the damn show, dude. There's a lot of time that we put into this. This thing, but no reading the notes. You and I, come on, let's be honest. You said the same thing. I know you read these notes and you're like, holy crap.

Like this. I forgot that we talked about that. Or. Oh, that was. That was that tool that they mentioned, for sure. Oh, Like, I've never seen it broken down in, like, these five steps. You know, they did. Like, Joe and I have been spending a lot more time actually writing some of the notes and reviewing some of the notes, because we also send the notes out in our monthly evergreen profits letter. But don't worry about that right now. Go to hustleandflowchart.com comp. See for yourself. And we should go talk to the world's greatest salesperson.

Wow. We actually did talk to the world's greatest salesperson.

Yeah. Let's go say hello to Todd Herman.

Hey, Todd. Welcome to the show, my men.

Very good to be here. Thanks for having me.

You're very welcome, my men. I like that. I've never heard that.

Well, I can't say my man, because now I'm insulting Matt.

That's awesome.

Then I gotta go to my woman. Or. I don't know. It gets all. You can take that, too. This is how you start a podcast.

It's a good start already.

I love it.

You've obviously heard some of our.

There's a lot of dress up, which actually lends perfectly to the topic today.

It does, yeah. We're all gonna dress up in probably some interesting things after this. Yeah, man. So we're actually just riffing back and forth on how we met originally, and you reminded us exactly the time and place, and that was kind of like your introduction, more or less, into the marketing community from the whole sports side of things.

Yeah, that was interesting.

Yeah. The underground back in the day, back in 2011, and.

And we also learned at that time that you were made the world's greatest salesman or awarded the world's greatest salesman. So we might have to talk about that story in a couple minutes here.

Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. That's a blast from the past for me.

Sure.

Very cool. Well, before we do, could we get a little bit of the backstory, kind of how you got into the entrepreneurial world and sort of your evolution to where you are today?

Yeah. Sort of accidental. I never. I think. I mean, maybe growing up, it was. I had a bit of an entrepreneurial spirit, and. But I never really. I wanted to be a marine biologist when I was in high school, and so I kind of fell into this, the sort of accidental hero type of thing, and I played college football. I was a really pretty good athlete. And then when I got done college, my sort of superpower that I had in order to get to where I had achieved in sport was that I had a really good, strong, you know, mental game or inner game, because I'm not a physically gifted human being by any stretch of the imagination. I'm not 6 foot 4 and 240 pounds or something like that. And. And so I ended up volunteering at a high school and talking to young kids about, you know, their mental game more than anything else. When I was coaching the defensive backs and people started asking me if I could mentor their kids, and it was sort of, well, is this actually a business or not? And ended up building up this really huge coaching practice and training practice in the sports world, and I still own it today. And I built up lots of other businesses over the course of that time as well. But that was my first little foray into the world of business. And I can tell you I was terrible at it in the very beginning. Cause I was terrified of selling myself in the very beginning. And it's funny because we just referenced the whole world's greatest salesperson thing. But while I was actually building that business, it was very much a side hustle in the beginning, because it's not like mental game coaches were, you know, a really popular thing. Back in 1997 when I started, there was. There was never be the first in a market. I mean, a lot of people talk about having a blue ocean strategy, and it's, It's, It's. It's a wonderful idea. Just have to make sure that there's actually a demand for what you have. And I had to kind of create demand.

Yeah.

But, yeah, I got fired from three different sales jobs as I was trying to build my own business. So I finally cracked the nut on it and became a lot better.

Dude. That's true, actually, because there's. That was like, you know, podcasting, for instance, like when it first came around, like, it would have been way too dang early to hop in on that game, but it's like, because we tested it out way back then, but it was kind of a struggle fest. And then now, you know, fast forward a little bit. Now you see the momentum. Even though it's been around for a long time, there's definitely a time to. Don't jump in a little too early. Look for that demand.

Interesting. Yeah, yeah. Right place, right time is, Is, is. Is a good thing. You know, having said that, though, I mean, now that I've got 22 years of experience underneath my belt. And being very, very early on in the kind of mental game peak performance space, I've seen a lot of things come and go over that time. And, you know, I've got over. I'm close to 17,000 hours now of working with people one on one, face to face. And, you know, that that's what ended up helping me find the kind of magic of what, you know, the book is that I ended up writing.

Yeah, so. So the book, the Alter Ego Effect, Matt and I both listened to it, but I think actually we're about to pick up another physical copy of it.

Just to kind of do that would be. That would be very nice of you.

We have a bad habit of doing that, getting books on an audiobook and then going, this book was too good not to own it. And then I. We buy it because, you know, we want to. You know, it's a different way to reference it.

Right? Totally.

Yeah.

And that was kind of our thing. It's like, okay, holy crap, this is a whole new world that we haven't really been exposed to. I don't think many people have. And we'll dig into that here. But, yeah, definitely, like, the referencing and the physical aspects, I'm like, okay, so practically, I want to follow some steps and stuff like that. So we're like, cool, let's do that in the podcast. And now that we got them, oh.

The podcast is a free coaching podcast.

Not doing that at all.

It's all good.

But, yeah, no, back to the mental thing. I think that's really unique that you did, you know, at the time, like, going through college sports, that you had just a great mindset. Or is that something you kind of realized a little later?

No, I knew that because a lot of the things that other people were struggling with, I didn't have as much of an issue with. So, you know, we all have heard about things like the flow state or the zone states. And one thing that I became very good at by the age of about 16 was. And I actually played multiple sorts. I was multiple sports. I was also a nationally ranked badminton player as well. And people. Oh, badminton and football, they go perfectly together. But, you know, I actually. It's one of the things that I tell a lot of. I mean, I've spoken on stages since 97 when I started the business. That's actually how I grew. It was. I did a lot of speaking, and I tell parents all the time that in order to develop mental toughness and in a young Athlete or just in sports in general is make sure you get them in some individual sports because in team sports a lot of, there's a lot of hiding that can happen there. And you know, in my experience, I've worked with over 70, 73, 75 different sports across so many different domains. Individual sport athletes typically have a higher level of mental toughness, which is the ability to be flexible and adaptable. That's really. Mental toughness means your ability to be flexible and adaptable despite what the circumstances are giving you and what the world is delivering. That's really what it's about, agility. And yet most people think of mental toughness as the square jawed, tough Navy SEAL guy who's coming out and he's going to hit you with the battering ram. That's a kind of an archaic idea. And in fact that's almost like the white knuckle approach. And there's a time and place for those things. But in sport, when you're white knuckling it, it's impossible for your mind to get into the zone and flow state because there's too much tension and stress. And so I learned this kind of biological process and I would get into the zone and flow and that's what allowed me to play way beyond really what probably my skill set was or what my size was definitely. And so, you know, I never thought of it, me necessarily using it as a mechanism to build a business around by any stretch of the imagination. Uh, I just, I was just fortunate that ended up got being able to build a career in, you know, pro sports, Olympic sports and you know, the.

The like, yeah, no, that's that and that's really cool because I think a lot of folks will white knuckle a lot of stuff in business and just force, just try to force that, you know, square peg in their own hole. And it's like, dude.

Well, Matt, like to your point too, like it's the thing about sport because like people ask me all the time like who's more mentally or what's, what's harder to code. Cause I mean, I work with so many, you know, I work with entertainers, I work with public figures, I work with leaders, I work with, you know, guys just like, just like yourselves, like, you know, kind of top performing entrepreneurs, people who are ambitious and you know, people ask, you know, what's it like working between the two? And the reality is if I'm on a call with you guys and then, and I do, I've got a call later tonight with one of My, one of my athletes who's in the NBA semifinals. And.

There'S very little difference in the context of the conversations. But there is way more uncontrollables in entrepreneurship. Even though everyone thinks that they're getting into entrepreneurship because they want to be the master of their destiny and control things, it's actually one of the great myths of entrepreneurship. Because if that's your great lens of getting into it, you're going to get stressed out and burnt out by it. Because really there are, there are so many uncontrollables. You think about any sport, there's borders, there's lines that go around it. There's a, there's one goal, it's get the ball in the basket, get the puck in the net, get the football across the line, get the. Go get the golf ball in the hole. Like people, you understand it. And then you get into business and if you're a smart person, you're like, I feel like I'm a frickin idiot today because again, there's so many components and, and.

The thing that I end up doing and what I pursue immediately when I'm working with people is let's build a border. Let's start creating your game so that you know how to operate inside of it. And now all of a sudden we've created context. It's like, you know, frames are really important. We all know, and I know you guys are masters at communication and marketing and persuasion and stuff like that. And. And you know that the person who owns the frame is the one who owns the argument.

Sure.

Well, the same thing goes in business. And so there are so many uncontrollables. And so my experience of most entrepreneurs, which is many, many, many thousands that I've worked with, they typically lead a far more toxic, high stressed life.

I could see that. Yeah. And that's actually a perfect comparison. Now thinking of entrepreneurship and like basketball, for instance. Yeah. You got not only the boundaries, but you have these rules that you have to kind of stay within.

Exactly.

And entrepreneurship, it's like good l. Your own path.

Yeah, yeah. And then people go, oh, wonderful, I'm going to make my own path. And you get out there and you're like, oh yeah, there's no actually path laid out for me.

Right.

That's the, that's the whole myth there. Yeah.

I'm really hoping your call leaders with Kawhi Leonard, you don't have to tell me who it is, but Kawhi Leonard is like my favorite player.

Dude, that, that basket that he dropped was Amazing.

You know, I'm a huge KAWHI fan because I've always been an SDSU basketball fan. And he's local, but very cool. So I'm curious about the. The world's greatest salesperson. How did that come to be?

So I am. I've. And you would appreciate this. So I'm a. I'm a huge David Ogilvy fan. And when I got into. When I got into the world of business and I'm, again, I was terrible at it in the very beginning. All I knew was I was good at working with young athletes and helping them on the mental game. I was. So that. That's on, like, the delivery side of things. And I loved coaching. But then, you know, I had to go find clients, and that's where I was kind of terrible. And I didn't understand finance and all these kinds of things. Anyway, as I, you know, matured, you know, I had to find out how to market. And I found David Ogilvy's book, and I was like, oh, well, this is like. This is like, the best foundational piece to start with. And so any friends that started getting into business or people would ask me, like, books to read, I would always be like, hey. And I'd give that book away all the time. So anyway, 2010 rolls around, and Ogilvy was had. They kind of felt like they had lost their way or lost their positioning on Madison Avenue, where David Ogilvy's mantra was always, we sell or else. Like, we are here to put cash in the banks of our clients, not get creative awards. And so they really wanted to go back and own that idea of selling. And so they thought of doing this campaign, we sell or else. And they were looking for this. They're doing a search for the world's greatest salesperson. You go on YouTube and watch some of their funny videos that they launched with Back then, if you just do a search for the world's greatest salesperson. And a friend of mine, Melanie Notkin, who runs savyanti.com, this massive media site, she pinged me on Twitter and said, I know that you're a big fan of David Ogilvie. Always give out his books. You should go and enter this contest. I think you'd win it. So I was like, yeah, sure. And I wasn't entering it to win the contest, but when I saw their launch, it was. You had to submit a video onto YouTube of how you would sell a red brick in two minutes or less. And. And I went, oh, I know exactly How I'd sell a red brick in two minutes or less. So I was working. I was busy working on a project at the time for this upcoming sports workshop that I was doing. And I was like, okay, I'll do it later. But then I thought, you know what? I'd say this to everybody else. When you get the flash of creative inspiration, stab it immediately, otherwise you'll lose it. And so I kind of stopped what I was doing, put it off to the side, got into, like, a white shirt and a blazer, wrote out a quick little script, and then put up a video camera, and then shot this video. And in the video, what I did was I talked about how I sort of turned the brick into a metaphorical device, where I said, you know, since the times of the ancient Sumerians, the red brick has been used to build civilizations. It's been helped to use, or it's been used to build roads to connect us all and revolutionized homes. So they were. So they were no longer vulnerable to the whims of nature. But at the end of the day, all of those ideas started in the mind of one person. And just like them, you might have a goal, a dream or a vision of something that you want to take action on, but you haven't. But if you buy this red brick, it's assigned to not only yourself, but the world around you that you've laid your first red brick. You've taken that first step towards creative action. And so that's kind of when the video goes on from there. So, anyways, I managed to. I knew that they were launching their whole contest on, I think it was April 1, 2010, and I submitted it on April 1 because I. You know, it's that cold first mover advantage that we all know about. So I wanted to get the video up, and I thought this contest was going to be massive because, I mean, you know, I've got such a reverence for. And it was a partnership between Ogilvy and YouTube. So they were all. They're both putting their weight behind it. And I think there was like 500 submissions from around the world, and I ended up getting into the final three. They flew me to Cannes, France, to the international advertising festival. And on the largest stage there, you know, where they do all the big movie premieres during the Cannes Film Festival. But during the advertising festival, they brought us on stage, and we all had to do a pitch for the new Motorola Droid cell phone. And we had to sell that in three minutes or less. And the entire audience, like, 1200, 1300 people in the amphitheater, all had live text message voting, and they voted for the winner. And I ended up winning with like 76% of the vote or something like that.

Holy moly. It. Was that just a pitch on the spot that you had to come up with for that?

No, no, no. They gave us. They actually sent us the Droid phone.

Yeah. And so I had about two weeks to prepare. And what I did was I actually created five different presentations because I didn't know what the audience was going to look like. And when I got there, I realized just how many didn't have English as their first language. So I used Batman as my big metaphor there. I was like, you know, if, you know, if you could create your own smartphone, what would you add to it? Well, here's what I tell you. If Batman created his device, this is what it would look like. And there was this Greek contingent sitting in the front. And this one lady turned to. She was like the president. She turned, she's like, this guy's good. And I was like, oh, maybe I got this. Actually, it was amazing because then on the big promenade in Cannes, there was this big.

You know, what do they call it? You know, billboard that had my face on it and said, congratulations, Todd Herman, world's greatest salesperson. As soon as I won, all these people rushed the stage to give me these postcards because the advertising festival, if you ever get a chance, go to it because it's amazing. And it's all about the media.

Parties. And so I got all these invites, so I was like almost a celebrity for the week. I'd walk down the promenade, people like, oh, my God, you're that guy in the billboard. And yeah, it was. I kind of fell again, ass backwards into that contest. And it was just sort of me paying homage to someone that I, you know, it really helped out my career. So.

Yeah, and putting yourself out there and you harnessed an alter ego, it sounds like, too well.

And in the end, that entire thing built in brand new business. Because Procter and Gamble approached me. That video is actually used inside of many training organizations as a way to sell now. And so it actually built up a brand new corporate practice for me as well.

That's cool.

And Motorola got a, Some, some nice creative ideas for their business.

No kidding, huh?

They did, but they did not. They did not capitalize on them.

Well, I would imagine with the Batman reference, they may have to, you know, get some licensing agreements set up and.

But they should have done it because it was like if, when you see it, that's the great thing about. And you guys, I know you guys have, you guys speak on stages too. That's the great thing about being toes to toes and face to face with people. That's why, you know, now that I've gotten really deep into the online world, I browbeat people around, like, stop hiding behind your keyboard. Like, I have this two hour window every single Friday where, you know, and I've got a sizable email list where I'll just pick up the phone and start dialing my customers. And that's where I get all of our copy from. Because I want to catch you in the most normal part of your day. So if you're having a crappy day, I want to catch you in the emotional experience of it. If I send out a link to saying, hey everyone, on Friday, I'm open to doing two hours of calls. You're going to prepare for it and I don't want you to prepare for it because very little of life is about preparation. It's about giving some sort of idea of what you want to maybe go and pursue and then getting your face smashed in on the battlefield.

Right.

Like that's to all of us that are pursuing things. That's the reality and that's not me being negative or cynical about. Let's just reality those of us that are ambitious, what happens. And so I want to catch people in that part of their day and, and, or if they've just had a great win. Because the words that you use when you're in the emotional experience of it are very different than when you're filling out some sort of survey where you're unpacking it intellectually. And you know, I record everything, we get it transcribed. I then get it put up into a word cloud and pull out all of the most common words that people use in, you know, whether in there, when they're in a tough space or a positive space. And, and it's great way to write emails and the rest of it.

That's amazing. Yeah. And it's crowdsourcing. I mean just imagine you're not working with a blank slate if you do what you just did. And I know a lot of folks will take the, I guess, I mean it's still a great route, but the survey route. But like you said, it's kind of like an over prepared way of doing it. Whereas you cold on the phone, boom, you're getting them raw.

And talk about just an experience for your clients. Right. Like I remember the very first time I Did a launch online for my nine at a year program. And I was doing it in conjunction with a partner. It was their list, because I didn't really have a list at the time because it was a new kind of audience that I was going to. And when the first sale started coming in, I opened up Skype and they said, oh, what are you doing? Because we were working together on launch day. And I said, oh, I'm calling the customers. And they're like, you're doing what? I'm like, well, yeah, I'm calling the customers. And they're like, nobody does that. And the very. I'll never forget the very first guy I called this guy Philippe up in Montreal, Quebec, and I said, hi, asleep there. And he answered and he said, yeah. And my voice kind of sounded familiar to him because he just got done watching videos. And I said, hi, food. This is Todd herman from the 90 day. You're calling. I just wanted to call and say, you know, thank you for placing your faith and trust in me and joining the 90 year program. And he just. And he said, I'll never. It was so matter of fact, he said, todd, I have a pretty sizable business, and I've been in this online game for 13 years. Nobody has ever called me.

Wow.

He's like, you got a customer for life. And that right then was like, where I was like, okay, well, this is going to be my, you know, competitive advantage, because I love talking to people anyway. And then you unpack, like, hey, like, why did you buy? Like, what. Was there anything specific that was bothering you? Or, you know, what was your. What's your situation like? And I don't need to invent stories anymore.

Yeah, yeah.

Because they're giving it to me cold.

Yep. And you could reference anything. And like, you said, customer for life. I mean, that's, I think, even more so now, folks. And you could totally correct me, but, like, I feel like they're even more of a keyboard warrior, you know, like, with social media, they just think, oh, yeah, I'm on Instagram live, or doing all these stories. It's like, you're still hiding.

Well, that's what everybody's out there teaching, right? Everybody's out there teaching that the shortcuts, the quick paths, go create a landing page, funnel, hack somebody, create a landing page and drive Facebook ads to it. And that's all you got to do. Right. That's kind of the common wisdom that's being spread these days.

Yeah. And yet, if you talk to anyone that's got some serious growth going on in their business. I mean, I'm in, I'm in some, you know, pretty high level networks and the ones who have a lot of, you know, face to face opportunity with their clients, they're the ones who are actually probably have the most growth right now. Even, even our friends at Digital Marketer, you know, I know Ryan and Roland and those guys really well and the biggest growth area of their entire business is their, their, their private masterminds and, and their, and their live events, not necessarily the online stuff. So not that we throw that stuff out. Right. But it's, it's don't, don't think you can rely on it as much anymore. So. Yeah, people are craving human interaction more than ever now.

They are? Yeah. The connection of it and. Yeah, and we were just at one of Roland's events at War Room and I could see that, you know, just the attention. There's no better way to keep someone's attention. I mean, podcasts are actually pretty good. We've done some measurements and we're like, oh, that's good engagement here. So this is a good first start. But yeah, the in person meetups, even at a, at a, you know, at a minimum in your local area, that's something we're kind of starting to do.

That's something that Roland specifically is, is, is really big on. I mean, I don't think he goes to lunch any day without somebody else being there with him.

Doesn't seem, it's just because he's cheap. He's cheap and he doesn't want to pay. That's his problem.

Roland, damn you.

We've went and got in lunch with Roland probably three times. I don't think he's ever let us pay.

That's true.

That's why I can make that joke. It was true that I'd be just an ass.

I'm sure I'll hear, which I think.

Which I may still be, but we'll leave the listener to decide.

Yeah, exactly. Yeah. No, that's awesome, man. And this is just a testament to the folks out there who think I don't have the time or just all these excuses, these roadblocks that we set up for ourselves to not just pick up the phone or even just reach out with a personal email if that's maybe the first step in the right direction.

It's so hard to argue with the fact that human beings crave relationships. When you take a look at every single study that's ever been done on the quality of life or fulfillment, like when people get to the end. And they say, you know.

The longest study that was ever done on kind of human success and experience of life was done over a course of, I think it was 63 years. And it was, it concluded about eight years ago. And the number one common denominator of people who had a fulfilling life was the quality of their relationships. That was the number one. And then other studies have been done talking about different metrics, but the only shared golden thread that's weaved them all together is the relationship side of things. And yet people right now are isolating themselves. They're consuming so much cotton candy, candy, apple.

Stuff, sugary stuff off of social media or stuff that's toxic. And then they wonder why when you take a look at your psychological self or emotional self, you're obese, right? Like you're, you're, it's, it's stunting your physical and mental and emotional growth. So we need to, and I mean there's, I would encourage everybody. It's my great challenge to everybody that's listening is I dare you to actually go into your customer list this week and call someone random. And like in me, I do a whole like roulette style with it. I don't even pay attention to the time zone or anything like that. If, if I call and it's 5am in LA, I don't care if you're the one who has your phone on at 5am and I call you. Like, there's no yelling at me because I woke you up. You're the one turn off your phone. And by the way, I've had some phenomenal conversations with people at 5:00am or at 1:00 clock in the morning with people because they're like. Because my attitude is. Because they're expecting like, dude, you just called me at 5:00am like, dude, you just picked up the phone at 5:00am.

They'Re like, oh yeah, that's right.

And why aren't you up at 5am anyway?

What if they still have a landline and they can't mute it at night?

Well, yeah, I've got nothing to say to that. Sorry.

They got bigger issues to worry about. That's another error in their own decision making process.

What are you doing adding that extra cost of a landline in your life? I've just found a cost savings for you.

See, there you go. Five, ten bucks a month.

So, I mean, so I want to take it to the alter ego effect. I mean, you're. Well, first of all, this is probably just going to answer my own question because you're just doing it anyway. But you're on a media tear right now, and I always find that super impressive. I was telling you right before. And like, you're everywhere, it seems like. I mean, how does it look like, is this something that's kind of fluid that you're doing, or is this like the focus of your. Just your time right now? I know you're doing a whole bunch of other stuff. You're consulting.

Well, well, I mean, it was, it was, there's. There's a huge focus part, definitely. I mean, you're, you're engineering as much as possible around the actual, you know, the launch day of your book and then, you know, going on for another. Some people, they, they really compress it down to the first two weeks. I didn't do that. I mean, I did 24 podcast interviews one week, 23 the next, 21 the next. And, and so I've been. But I'm playing a massive long game with it too. So now it's probably going, gone a little bit more fluid. There's a lot of things that are coming a lot easier to me. I mean, I was, you know, fortunate going in, but again, I wrote this book not in the second year of my business where I wanted to position myself as an expert. I'm, you know, 22 years in when, before my first book came out.

And.

But no, I just have. The fun part for me is it's not, I don't think, I don't see it as this book being about me. I feel like I'm a shepherd for this idea. I just happen to be the one who codified the process of, of really how to use alter egos in a powerful way. And, you know, it's what I'm known for in, you know, elite level sport. And, and then, you know, it kind of permeated out of that and into like leadership and entertainment world. And now I'm, you know, really. I feel this book is a big reminder to people. It's a. I look at as a big remembering because the great thing about the idea of an alter ego or a secret identity is that every single human being on this planet has already used this because it's baked into our human psyche. It's what used as kids when we were most tapped into our creative imagination, we were playing with the idea of man. How far could I jump off of the sofa when I'm Superman or Wonder Woman or Black Panther? You know, what could I do on the basketball court if I'm Michael Jordan or, you know, Magic Johnson or LeBron James or insert the name of anyone from another sport, right? It's. And it's answers that question of what can I do if? And the if statement is we all have some sort of narrative and story around what we think we can and can't do or what our weaknesses are, or the narrative of, you know, just stuff that's happened to us. And we've now got this set of beliefs that might stop us or we think that our circumstances in our environment are the thing that's holding us back. And so we play with this idea of man, what could I do if I didn't have that? And then all of a sudden, because disassociation is a powerful way to create a new level of performance, we now are no longer shackled to those ideas and we're now acting through a new identity. And so that's what I'm kind of known for in pro sport, is the more kind of quick hit artist guy that I get called in when someone on Wednesday is about to be playing in the US Open out here in New York City, where I live in, at Flushing Meadows on Saturday. And they don't have time, I don't have time to, you know, give them a meditation class, which, you know, of all the strategies, is one of the most powerful strategies you could ever implement long term for your mental, emotional and physical health. But three days, what's the fastest path to changing someone identity? Because that's at the core of how they associate themselves and.

Yeah, yeah, no, that's. It's fascinating because I mean Matt and I, like I said, we both listen to the book and still in the process of creating this alter this identity, secret identity of ours. And it's not quite like we have, I think we individually, we haven't even spoken about it because I know in the book it's almost like it's a little better when you keep it a mystery to those.

Right?

Like, I like that because I'm used to just like kind of like, you know, here's what's on, like, keep this shit secret. It's my little mystery. So sports athletes, I think it's when you started the book out, I think there was a story about Bo Jackson. And I think it's pretty obvious that a lot of athletes have, they go into a different zone, you know, their flow state, their identity. But like reading these stories, I was like, holy crap. Like about Bo Jackson. And like you said LeBron, no one's really Tiger. I saw you posted recently on Facebook, Facebook, about like this guy's a beast. And so, yeah, I know he's a nice guy. At least he seems that way. But on the field, he's just like, I'm going to frickin murder this thing.

Well, there was. There was one. I think it was about Bo Jackson, but there was one comment in the book about, I think it was Bo Jackson where he said something to the effect of like, I was watching every game with everybody else. That wasn't me on the field. I was. I was watching that. And I'm totally butchering the wording from the book, but it was. Somehow these people managed to disassociate themselves from the athlete that's on the field.

Well, that. That. That example I think you're talking about is actually Beyonce.

Oh, Beyonce.

You know Beyonce, when she's talking about Sasha Fierce, she would always talk about how it was just an out of body experience.

Yeah.

How was she never. She. In the very beginning, she never felt like it was actually her that was out there performing. And then it would be like. Like she'd get off stage and almost, like, shake her head and she's kind of back to being Beyonce kind of thing. And. But what's really important for people to. They. I don't want people to think that, oh, this is reserved for people that are, like, entertainers or for, like, people go, oh, well, I can get them because they're out there on a stage performing. And yet, because I'm a performance guy, every single person's performing because performance is about getting a result. Right. And so, you know, the people that are listening, it's like, so the results that you're currently getting, are they the results that you actually want to be getting? And this isn't a judgmental question. It's like, no, let's be honest and real. Because the first point of peak performance is honest and truthfulness. Like, anyone who's not ready to get real about themselves and their current level of activity or performance is not ready. They're just playing with the idea. They're just masturbating to themselves, making themselves feel good that they're doing something to move forward. But listen, at the end of the day, it's not going to get you where you want to go, and all you're going to do is exhaust your arm.

Yeah, that's true. Yeah. It's like a circle, right. It's just a loop that's not closed without some kind of, you know, outlet with the result in mind.

Yeah. And so, you know, so. But with Beyonce, when you Actually unpack her history, which I. Which I talk about in the book. So here's a girl who is singing gospel music in Houston, Texas. The parishioners there became just entranced with her voice. Her. Her dad and her family, you know, realized that they had something kind of special and got her and her sister into a singing group. Now there's eight. Eight young girls in a singing group. They're singing kind of provocative pop lyrics, dancing provocatively on stage. Now, for someone who grew up in a gospel singing family, you know, God fearing, all that kind of stuff, that's going to challenge your identity. That's going to make you feel uncomfortable. You like it, you want to pursue this musical side of yourself, but now you almost feel like you're hiding. Well, that's not going to help you develop into the performer that you want. So she built Sasha Fierce, who was the identity that went out onto the stage, and then she owned it when she was out there. And that's why in 2009, when she came up with her Sasha Fierce album, and she talks about how she could retire Sasha Fierce. Because what it gets to is this great quote from Cary Grant, the Hollywood golden era actor, which probably most perfectly encapsulates the idea of the alter ego effect, which is, he said at the end of his career, I pretended to be somebody I wanted to be, and I finally became that person, or he became me. But we met at some point, and the only thing I would change about that quote is I activated somebody I wanted to be. Because the important point that I'm driving home consistently in that book is this is about you finally owning the 6 inches between your ears or that emotional self that sits there and you saying to yourself, you know what? For the longest time, I've let outside circumstances or other people label me and sort of define who and what I am. But now I am going to define what I'm about, and I'm going to take that out onto the field of play. And that's exactly what Beyonce did or Bo Jackson did when he found his alter ego or Martin Luther King like to talk about about in the book, or Winston Churchill or the you know, the many other just, you know, quote unquote, regular people that I talk about in the book or clients as well. And it's a really powerful mind frame. And, you know, I know. I know that people have heard about the term intention before, but this is taking intention to that maximum level of performance, and it's such a. It's a powerful way to operate.

Yeah. So is it is, it kind of the, the core self is. What you're getting at is.

Is.

Yeah. Is figuring out, okay, what is it that you truly desire and be real with yourself. And I know you have a whole process on that in the book. Yeah. And then what I remember in the book too is as developing or when developing this other identity, this alter ego, it's cool because you can kind of pull from people or even things or animals and, you know, objects and kind of use them as, you know, to see the qualities. Yeah, it's really cool. Like, you know, some are just like, oh, a lion. You know, just the way that a lion acts. That's my alter ego. Or it could be, you know, I don't know, some random actor out there.

Yeah. I mean, I talk about in. I think it's. Yeah. Chapter number one when I talk about my one client who was. We became a client. He was 14 years old and he was down in D.C. and he was on my sort of sports email list and. And he read or. Yeah, read in one of the emails about where I work some days in New York City here, which is at this Reebok Sports Club on the Upper west side. It's not there anymore. It was bought by Equinox. But it's this phenomenal club and it's where tons of celebrities work out. Chris Rock, you know, Dwayne the Rock Johnson.

Regis. Regis Philbin and his wife Joy, who are absolute beasts in the gym, by the way. I mean. Oh man, they are. And they're awesome people. They're so nice.

Just seems like a cool guy.

Yeah, no, he is. He's a genuine article. And so anyways.

Both of his parents had passed away when he was younger and he was in a position where he was a really good basketball player, but he was, you know, kind of felt like he was under indexing and just sort of desperate because he really wanted to make something of his life and he was living with his grandma and he snuck out of the house at 4:00 in the morning, got down to Penn station in downtown D.C. caught their 4:30 train or the 4:22 train to New York City. And then I showed up there that morning to Reebok, where I was working out and then gonna hang around and work. And the people at the front desk called me over and said, hey, this young Andrew kid is waiting for you. And I go over and I'm like, hi. And he's like, hi, I just came up from D.C. and I'm like, how old are you? And he's like, 14. I'm like, did your parents bring you? He's like, no, my parents told me the story. I'm like, well, we got to call your grandma right now. Because he's like, no, she won't know that I'm even gone because I wake up and leave for school before her. But I said, well, we got to call her anyway. Anyway, we sat down. So long, long story. But we sat down and he was sort of unpacking his issues and how there was this new player on his team who was a really, really talented guy, too. And. And he felt like for himself, he was now playing second rung on the ladder, and even in games, he was giving up the ball and not taking the shot like he. Like he used to. And he felt like he was really throwing away his career, and he wasn't going to get any sort of college scholarships, which. Which he really needed in order to get to the next level. And. And so we started talking, and I started talking about his family history, and I started talking about this idea of the alter ego, and I talked about other, you know, professional athletes that used it. And so I said, you know, if you could take the qualities of. Of something out there onto the court, what would it be? And he said, I watched this documentary the other. The other night on the Black Panther and how the Black Panther's nickname is the Ghost of the Forest. And he talked about how the traits that it had and how it hunted or whatever, and he said, that's. That's. My alter ego is I'm the. I'm the Black Panther, except my. My. My real name is going to be Anthony Ghost, and I'm going to go out onto that court, and I'm going to take my parents with me, and I'm going to haunt everybody on that court. And he plays in the NBA now. And. And it was just. It was. It was how he united in his mind, honoring the kind of spirit and the memory of his parents and bringing that out there, because that was his great pursuit is he really wanted to make something of his life and show others that he could do it because everyone had kind of written him off, you know, thinking that he wasn't going to make much of himself because, you know, he didn't have parents and his grandma had a tough time making ends meet and all that kind of stuff. And, you know, but it was that final unification of that Black Panther idea and that ghost, and then it just all came together in this kind of cataclysm. And, yeah, he's A super inspirational guy.

I love that he's saying, I wish.

I knew you 20 years ago. Because I played basketball in high school and I was in practice, I was the best player on the team in games, I was the biggest choker on the team.

I was like that in baseball.

It was just like whenever it was game time, when it actually mattered, I couldn't perform. But when I was in practice, I had the most accurate shot. I was. Yeah, everybody on the. Blew everybody on the team away. That's.

Yeah.

So what is. What is that like? Is there a common reason why that happens in folks? Obviously, there's probably two factors to this. So pre alter ego, and then after alter ego. Because I want to go back to, like you said, you're going to chat with, you know, one of the guys playing basketball in the playoffs right now. Sometimes that, like, I feel like there's different things that happen on either side.

Yeah. So, I mean, one of it is like, safety and security. When you're in practice, there's a lot of safety and security. There's no there. I mean, even though you could have a coach who could be a menace or something like that, but, you know, there's no great white hot light of performance shining on top of you where you've got audience and expectations of others possibly sitting there, judgment, criticism can slow people down and haunt them. You know, out there, you know, it's the classic. You know, people go to the practice tee and they're hitting the ball straight as an arrow and they get onto the course, and all of a sudden, you know, they're slicing and hooking it or duffing it or whatever the case might be. And it's the expectation and the environment change. So people call it pressure. And so I have resisted against allowing my clients to even believe in the concept of pressure because the moment you make it a part of your world, it's got a gravitational pull. Right. Like it's. In my world, pressure just doesn't exist. That is something that you're creating.

Now.

We can create a positive pressure where it absolutely fuels you, but many people, it brings them down. And so one of the great powers of the alter ego for someone is, again, I talked about this earlier on, disassociation the moment. And this is what Martin Luther King used with his idea for how he was using his alter ego. Here's someone who was leading.

You know, one of arguably one of the most important movements of the 20th century.

Sure.

And. And he didn't want any of his own insecurities to get in the way of that movement. And so he went out and just like I did, I went out and bought a pair of non prescription glasses, so fake glasses. And when I was 21 and starting on business because I was so insecure about how young I looked, and I went on a pair of glasses and I was doing my reverse Clark Kent. You know, Superman put on the glass to become Clark Kent and be mild mannered and accepted by society and be. And mute his powers while I put on the glasses to become my Super Richard, which was the person who could, you know, just like Superman can stop the, stop the bullet. I was stopping any of the slings and arrows of rejection and resistance that was gonna, you know, get in my way of getting my business out there. And I, you know, that's what, that's what helped me get past that. And just like Cary Grant's quote, I ended up becoming the person that I most wanted to be. And, and that's what my Martin Luther King did. He put on those glasses and he called it his distinguished self. And when he was, when he sat down to do his writing, that's what he did. He put on those glasses so that he could say the things he needed to say in an eloquent way so that he could inspire nonviolent action. And, you know, that's so powerful because those glasses as a reference point became just like a shield to the more sensitive self. And that disassociation is really powerful. And so, you know, when you take a look at Anthony, when he went out there as Anthony Ghost, you know, that's what he was doing. He was now wearing, you know, a different cape for himself to protect that more soft, centered individual. And then when he got off the court, he could maybe sink back into himself. But then just like everybody else, you end up finding these other gears and that you didn't even realize that were there. And that's, that's the super fun part right now is the messages that I get on Instagram or Facebook from people that are like, man, this has been such a phenomenal experience to rediscover actually what I'm about instead of this person that I've been hiding inside of for such a long time. So it's, it's so powerful because anyways, getting back to your point, like, it's that it's that safety and security that when you're going out there onto performance, the performance side of things is now in, in most people's view, lost. And, and now they, you know, shirk from the, the, The Action or the field of play.

Yeah, gotcha. So how does somebody like switch into the alter ego? I mean, it's one thing to kind of map out what the alter ego is and say, these are the characteristics that I want. And I know you mentioned like putting on the glasses. Are there some other ways that people can like actually slip into this alter ego or is it as simple as like when I, when I wear this, I become this person?

Well, I mean, the most powerful. So I talk about in, I think it's chapter number 14, totems and artifacts and how we activate the alter ego. And it's not there as like a cute idea. I mean, in the book I unpack a ton of the science behind how all this works. Again, it's a big part of my business is, you know, I'm not giving people, you know, cotton candy and bubblegum drops.

Very practical.

Yeah, it's. Well, it's my great frustration with the personal development world is that, you know, a lot of people who write books aren't practitioners. They're not people who've been working people face to face and toes to toes, you know, and they're. And that, and that's really, really important because only in the working with people one on one. And I know that both of you have had businesses where you've worked with people one on one on the craft of something. And you know, there is, there is a lot of missing nuance when you work in a group format because a, there's group bias or group think that happens. So when someone's sitting in a Tony Rob seminar and Tony says, how many of you have used this idea? And because some people just want to touch cloth and impress the person, they raise their hand. And so now you feel like a left out idiot if you don't raise your hand. And so everyone's raising their hand and meanwhile you're sitting there going, yeah, that thing didn't actually work for me.

And this is actually how we were trained as kids in school. So we're probably carrying that throughout life now.

Probably because again, we want to stay a part of the tribe.

Sure.

And, and so for the longest time, there's so many paradigms that lived inside of the personal development, leadership and self help world that, that don't work. They, you know, as someone who has been face to face with people where I'm paid to help people perform, if I trotted out a lot of those ideas, I wouldn't have a business in the end because they don't work. And so.

You know, with the totems and artifacts. Wearing something is the most powerful form of activating because we have this psychological phenomenon called enclosed cognition that's embedded in us, which means that we as human beings attach story and meaning to the things that we wear and that other people wear. So when someone walks in with a doctor's coat on, we automatically create a story and narrative around the qualities and the traits and the abilities of that person. They're methodical, they're careful, and they're detailed. Those are three of the typical qualities that we attribute to a doctor. Smart, intellectual, driven. All those other ones can be there as well. Well, it turns out that if you were to put on a doctor's coat yourself, you actually unconsciously adopt the traits of the doctor or the lab or the person in a lab where you will actually start to act more methodical, careful, and detailed. And this was proven out in a great study that was done at the Kellogg School of Management, where they brought a bunch of students into a room and they had them do. Have you ever seen that eye test where it has the word of a color, but then it's colored differently than the word? So it's like the word is red, but then it's colored in blue, and then orange is in yellow and so forth. And so they have all these words out there and you to go through and say the word without making a mistake. And what they do is they time you to see how quickly you can get through all the words, and they track how many mistakes you make. So they brought in all these students and they had them do this test, and then they leave, and they bring in another group of students, and they hand them a white coat, and they tell them it's a painter's coat and to put it on. And then they do the test and they track the results. And then they bring in a third group, and this time they tell them to put on the white coat, but this time it's a lab coat or a doctor's coat, same white coat as the previous one. And they do the test. So what are the results? Well, the people who wore the lab coat, doctor's coat, they did the test in less than half the time and made less than half the mistakes as the other two groups. Why is that? Because of what I just said. They adopted the traits of being more careful, methodical, and detailed, which are qualities that helped you with that specific task when you had the painter's coat on. Well, painter's coat, you adopt the traits of being more creative, imaginative, and expressive. Those are Three qualities that don't help you with that specific task. But when they flip the tasks and this time they gave them a creative test. The people who wore the painter's coat, well, their results went up. And the people who were the lab coat, doctor's coat on theirs fell down to the mean. So this is just one example of, you know, when we're, when we're trying to find that totem, that artifact, that talisman, whatever it might be, is we can, that's the great thing about human beings, we can infuse the meaning into it. So when I put on those glasses, those glasses meant to me the qualities of being confident, articulate and decisive. The three qualities that I was lacking at the time. But what the secondary part of that, which adds even more power to this, is when you put on that talisman or that artifact or that totem, whatever it is, or you use something or you step into the idea of your alter ego, whatever or whoever it is, you want to honor them. And so you know, Anthony, when he's going onto the basketball court and we talked this through, it's like, you know when, if you're going out there truly as Anthony Ghost, don't you dare dishonor the memory of your parents when you go out there, because they are who you're carrying out there with them. And so you are not allowed that insecure Anthony that's sitting here right now concerned about what other people are thinking of, has to stay on the sidelines because there is no way in hell you're going to dishonor your parents memory when you're out there. And he looked at me, said, you're goddamn right I won't.

That's amazing.

And so the same, that's, that's why, you know, through the process in the book, I say like the most important part of this is you want to emotionally connect with whatever, whoever is your inspiration for that alter ego. Because I'm telling you, the moment that you do, you have just now aligned the three planes of human existence, the mental, emotional and physical plane. Because most of us have an idea of how we want to go and act. But then when we get out on the field, we're not doing the things that we want to go and do. We have this great intention of how we're going to start our Tuesday or our Thursday. And then when we get to the end of it, we're like, man, I didn't make those calls. I want, I didn't reach out to this person. Well, why is that? It's not because you're not smart enough. It's not because you didn't have the skills. It's because that idea that you had was not able to get across the bridge of emotion out onto the field of play. Because it's that emotional plane that matters. And so emotionally connecting to that alter ego, that idea is so, so important because. And when you. And when you add in that other element that I started to add into this whole process about, don't you dare dishonor the idea of that person or that thing, whatever it might be, by not showing up that way. Because they wouldn't. Because that was exactly my process. When I played football. You know, when I was in the gym or when I was in the locker room getting ready to go, getting ready for my game, I had. I've got this. I kind of teach this concept of building out your mental movie theater. And I'd step into my mental movie theater and I would. It had two doors in the back, and one door would enter Walter Payton and Ronnie Lot, who are my two heroes in football, and especially Walter. And then through the other door would be this tribe of five Native American warriors. And I'm a huge Native American buff. Where I grew up on this big farm and ranch in western Canada, it's really rich with Native American history. In fact, when Sitting Bull, after the Battle of Little Bighorn and Custer dying, that's where they fled, was actually up onto our family's land and then down not too far away from us. And so there's lots of arrowheads and, you know, like, I would ride around on my horse, Cracker Jack, as a K, and go and kind of hunt for these things. So anyways, these, these, you know, Walter Payton and Ronnie would walk in and. And this tribe of Native Americans, and they start walking towards me. And I had five trading cards sitting next to me, three of Walter Payton and two of Ronnie Lott. And in my mind, Geronimo would be leading the tribe and he had. He's carrying these five cards. And as they approached, Walter would say to me, he said, todd, take each of these cards. And that's when Geronimo would reach out. And then I would reach out with my hand to grab them. And just as I would put my fingers on them, that's when Geronimo would pull them away. And Walter would look at me and he'd say, you take each of these as a representation of each of us, but don't you dare show up on that field. Unlike we would, you honor how we played. And the Emotion that we'd bring to that game. And then that's when Drawn would hand him to me and I would take those cars and I'd stuff one of Walter Payton's in my helmet because I wanted to think like him out there. I put Ronnie's underneath my shoulder pads because I wanted to hit like him. And I put the other two of Walter Payton's in my legs because I, or my thigh pads because I wanted to run like him. And then when I snapped my chin strap shut, that's when the, the heart of the Native American tribe would, you know, go inside of me. And that's, that's how, that's who I was showing up as. I wasn't showing up as that 6 foot tall, 156 pound, soaking wet 16 year old kid on that. There was, there was a whole army of people that were heading out of that field with me.

Oh my God.

And that was, and so that whole, that whole process, I do the same thing when I go home like guys, like I'm working with people just like you ambitious people. I need to challenge people all day long and I'm flexing that muscle for 12 hours or 10 hours of my day. But when I go home to my three little kids here in New York City, the last thing they want is a challenger personality type at home.

Right.

And so my inspiration when I get home is I have a little bracelet that I put on and that Molly made for me. It's hanging on a hook on the front, by the front door and it's got Ms. And C, the initials of Molly, Sophie and Charlie. And I put that on and that's my totem. And that's, that's me being very intentional about, you know, now the self that's showing up at home is, is this, is this dad self. And I want to crush it there too, just as much as I want to crush it in business. Yeah, and they deserve that because I know we all spend a lot of our energy in our day giving to other people, but the most important people end up getting the fumes at the end of the day. But there is this, there is this storehouse of energy that's limitless with people when you truly find the emotional anchor and you know, when I walk through that door, the self that I want to show up as my inspiration, there is Mr. Rogers. Because when I think of, you know, a fun, playful patient, you know, that's kind of a little bit more on the other end of the spectrum of that challenger personality type and the great Thing about this, because I've played with this for so long with so many people, is I know all those qualities exist inside of me, and I'm just playing with it now. And that's the most powerful part of this process, is maintaining an attitude of playfulness because you want to find the zone in the flow state in your life. Playfulness and using your creative imagination and tapping into and playing with many selves and identities is the fastest path to make that happen.

That's so awesome.

Awesome. That's amazing. I'm just over here just like, yeah.

Thanks for sharing that story with us about your football days, because that's like, that really sort of solidified things and hammered things in. But I feel like we can talk about this stuff for hours more. I love this conversation, but I know.

This is my favorite subject.

You got to grab your dinner and we don't want to make you late.

Yeah, we don't want to cut into your dinner time. So before we jump off, the book is Alter Ego Effect. You've also got the 90 day year. Is it ToddHerman Me or ToddHerman.com?

Yeah, ToddHerman Me is my home base on the interwebs and all my social profile stuff is there and people can. There's links to go get the book. And again, you can find it basically everywhere. We got it in airport bookstores, but yeah, I mean, go buy it because like I said at the very beginning to you guys, my mission is to make sure that every single human being has it because I think it's, you know, life's challenging, but if we can bring a hell of a lot more playfulness to life and maybe get people to re engage with, you know, the parts of themselves that were growing at the most rapid rate when you were young, who knows what you could do now?

Sure, yeah. Yeah. I mean, we're about to buy our second copies, so we'll link everything up.

Here in the notes. And when you calm down, we would love to reconnect and have you on again because this is just super fun and I know there's a lot of folks that'll take it and run, run with it who are listening.

Well, I appreciate the opportunity to share it with your crowd, guys.

Thank you, buddy. Have a great night and I appreciate your time.

You bet. Thanks, guys.

Bye.

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