Tom Breeze — A Step-By-Step Guide To Profitable YouTube Ads

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What's up, everybody? You're listening to the Hustle and Flowchart podcast with your boys, Matt Wolf and Joe Fear.

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Okay, let's tell the folks what they're about to listen to.

Sure.

What are we gonna do here? Alright, so we are actually chatting with a total YouTube master and he was definitely talked up about by another previous guest named John Belcher and for very good reason. So Tom Brees today is going to basically break down exactly what to do on YouTube to essentially get in front of the right people and show them the correct message that they act on. Yeah, and it kind of goes piggybacks off of John Belcher's episode that we did a little, you know, a few weeks back.

Yeah, so this is if you listen to John Belcher's episode that dives really, really deep into this sort of technical setup of YouTube ads targeting and the placement of your ads and you know, the various systems around creating the ads, which. Well, this is kind of like the part two with Tom Breeze where he really dives deep on what should be in the ad. The content of the ad, the content of the video, ways to string together multiple videos throughout your advertising campaigns to be even more effective and just some really, really cool stuff. So if you combine that episode with this one, this is like the masterclass on YouTube ads.

You can run like YouTube ads galore. And we're not saying like millions of dollars of ad spinner or even thousands, but you can take these methods, you know, take what Tom's about to teach you on how to create these videos that actually engage folks, but also are made specifically for YouTube. He talks a lot about the in stream ads. You see, you know that like pre rolls before videos. He has a specific method on how to structure those videos and how to create those. And then you pair that up with, yeah, John Belcher's strategies from the previous episode. And bam.

Yeah, I mean this guy is the number one media buyer of YouTube ads, period. Yeah. And he's got a new book coming. Depending on when you've listened to this, it may be out already called Viewability.

And that's dropping on October 10th and it may or may not be live by then, by the time you hear this. But either way, gear up, get a notepad in front of you if you're driving. Don't do that, but listen intensely intently and intensely, intensely listen.

And also, if you go over to our website@evergreenprofits.com, search for the Tom Brees episode. There's a little magnifying glass icon in the top right. You can search this episode if it's not on the front page right now, and find this episode. Because every episode that we've made for the last 15 episodes or so, we've been making cheat sheets. So you actually kind of get the Cliffs Notes version of these episodes. So make sure you go to hustleandflowchart.com and go to the show notes episode for the Tom Brees episode and grab that cheat sheet, because that'll be a nice little companion guide for you listening in on this episode for sure.

And please, please, please, may I ask you a very small favor is go to itunes or wherever you're listening to this, and please subscribe. It would help us greatly. We're trying to get a little bit more viewability on our podcast. Get it? Viewability?

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I know. All right, let's jump in. Let's get to the episode.

All right, here is Tom Breese.

Hey, Tom, thanks for hopping on the show with us.

It's great to be here, guys. Yeah. Thank you for inviting me.

Of course. Yeah. We were chatting right before we hit record how yours, like, you probably have the most amped up episode from a previous guest, John Belcher. And we've been receiving love mail, not hate mail, basically saying, where the heck is the Tom episode? We need to hear his half of the story now for YouTube.

Well, there we go. I mean, John is a great guy, of course, but this podcast episode is going to be better than anything you've ever done before. So there we go.

Yeah, take that, John. I'm just kidding.

Well, just to set the stage, if people haven't listened to the John episode, that is definitely very tactical in terms of ads and platform. You know, like kind of the back end stuff.

YouTube ads, specifically.

YouTube ads, yes. And you are kind of the other half. So actually creating the video, storytelling, psychology, all that cool stuff. So definitely for the listeners, you know, you're gonna get like, this is one half of the story and the other half's over there for you, too. So that is done. Now off to you, Tom. Thanks for hopping on. And I think we met for the first time in San Diego at our beer event. Actually, you came with Schramko, James.

That was a very cool evening. Yeah, very good fun.

Yeah, man. I mean, we probably don't remember much.

Of it, but I didn't realize the Schramko connection.

Yeah, you came with James and we've had James many times on the show here. So he's a, he's a cool dude. But yeah, so I guess let's, let's get into just kind of how you got into this whole game because you're deep into YouTube and give us a little bit of background about yourself.

Yeah. So I now run a YouTube ads agency. So that's kind of all we do. We don't do anything to any other platform. It's just YouTube ads. But yeah, when I first kind of got into business, my first business was. Oh, I trained in psychology, so that was my background and did my university degree in the UK and then did a master's on top of that on psychology. So love that field. And as soon as I completed my studies, I started working with people in London for anxiety related issues. So it was like a. Just like the thing that I was really good at was just kind of helping people feel more confident about specifically kind of I niche down or niche down into the area of public speaking. So people will come to me like a week out from their big presentation, like so freaked out and scared about the upcoming crowd they have to get in front of. And I'd basically give them techniques and strategies to feel a lot more comfortable and more confident. And one day I decided to put a video. Well, actually I was challenged by my mentor at the time to get audio on my website. That was like the new fad thing to do. I don't know if you remember those days. Oh, cool. Yeah, it wasn't like a podcast, it was like literally just click play here and I'll. There'll be a message from the business owner.

Yeah.

So I went, I went one stage further and recorded a video and I remember having to go down to my parents house and borrow their camcorder because that was the only thing I knew how to. That would actually film stuff. Didn't know how to do audio. So I recorded it into my Dictaphone in my pocket and spieled off like a seven minute video. And I didn't realize you could edit videos at the time either. So when I was doing it I had to like, if I made a mistake five minutes in I'd stop and start all over again. And yeah, this is a terrible experience. But I On the 123rd take, I remember because it was on my Dictaphone, I'd have the number of audio recordings. I nailed it. And I was like, that's amazing. And this is after multiple batteries dying halfway through and all this sort of stuff. But in the end, I got my video, upload it to YouTube embedded on my website, and I was so chuffed. I was like so happy that I'd done this video and I put it on my website. And I was running a load of Google Ads to my page in the good old days of just pure search ads. And then they would hit my website. And before the video I had about a 7% conversion rate. So of all the people that hit my website, 7% would leave a message and I'll call them back to book in a session with them in London. And after I put my video on my website, my conversion rate went from 7% to 22%. And immediately I was like, hey, there might be something in this video thing.

So immediately I realized that there's a huge opportunity for my business grew really quickly. I started doing more workshops just to try and fill in the numbers. And I remember doing a workshop to about 20 business owners. And they all came because I sold it via video. And two of the guys at lunch on the first day came up to me and said, hey, I would love to know how to present on camera, because I'm thinking about doing the same thing for my business. So I started teaching people how to present on camera after that. And then inevitably they would have these videos on their websites, see a similar conversion rate increase. And then they'd be like, how do I get to do more videos and promote these videos? And sooner rather than later, I kind of merged my business into more of like a communications style business where I'd help people present on camera, but then also help them promote their videos. And that's when I teamed up with a business partner at the time to do SEO. So did a lot more promotional videos and got them ranked on Google and YouTube. And that went really, really well. We had a really strong agency.

And we had a lot of clients. It was like going really well. And then of course, with the SEO days, with all changes that happened with the penguins and pandas and hummingbirds and everything else animal that was out there.

All the changes came at once. And so I went back to kind of what I knew. And I knew ads really well from Google. And so I started running some of these videos I had for clients as video ads on YouTube and it was like, must have been the first few video ads ever run in the UK almost. It was like as soon as it came out, I tried it and I managed to salvage the results for our clients that were getting SEO results with ads. But then I realized I could scale up and I could be not just one keyword ranking, it would be, I could be there for every keyword. And just the opportunity and the scale that we got meant that I just very quickly moved into a video ads company. And that was probably about six years ago. And ever since then it's just been YouTube ads for us. So that's been like the growth and the scale. And I think now Google told us recently that with a higher spending performance based agency for YouTube ads worldwide, so we must be doing something right and things are going well.

Yeah, we were actually, we went, we had Dennis Yu on the show recently and your name actually came up on, I think that episode too.

Yep.

And Dennis, you made a comment about how you were the number one spender on YouTube ads. So that's, that's pretty cool.

Well, the beauty was, is that when I, when I transitioned across from SEO to ads, because we weren't getting the results, I had to spend my own money getting the results. And that meant that we had this relationship with clients where we would fund the money or we would fund the ad spend and they would pay us for results. That was such a great relationship to have with clients because they would love it, there would be no risk for them. They just pay a set fee. And if I have a bad day, that's on me and it's my bad ad spend. But then if I can scale it and get the economies of scale going on, then it means I would end up earning more as well, but the client would scale together and we'd have a much closer relationship. So a lot of the clients we have now, or most of the clients we, if not all of the clients we have now, are on cpa like cost per acquisition of sale or lead gen now. And it means we have like a really close relationship. We don't have huge volumes of clients like most agencies. We're just more a case of we have a smaller number, but we have a real close relationships with them. So it served us very well. And yeah, YouTube is a. It seems like I've been talking about YouTube for so long, but only now, since Facebook's getting a little bit more kind of unpredictable, that people are saying, okay, we need to diversify across to YouTube. So it's now become like the Hot Topic. And it's great. But it seems like it's been one of those conversations that's been like hanging around for ages, but now it's taken more seriously.

Yeah, no, it seems like we are hearing that kind of more and more is that, you know, we've had a lot of people on the show that talk about traffic and a lot of people seem to be saying they're just blown away that more people aren't using YouTube ads. And it's one of the lowest hanging fruit ad platforms right now. That's just really, really effective. You know, you don't have to answer this if you're not comfortable with it, but I'm curious, what kind of ad spend are you doing on a monthly basis with YouTube?

On a monthly basis it will fluctuate. But I mean, at the highest level, I mean, we're not, we've got some big clients. We're spending about $15,000 a day. Those ones are the biggest ones we've got. But it's not, not all like that. Most of our clients will be sub $3,000 a day and just ticking over nicely. And the. I don't know exactly what our monthly fee would be with YouTube. It's a lot, but it's, it's. But it's. Yeah, I would have to work out exactly what that number is. It tends to fluctuate because some like, say, for example, we've got some seasonal clients. So the Christmas period can be so much higher than like a, a month in February, for example. It can just be very, very different from month to month. But yeah, I could probably. I need to work that one out.

No, that's already helpful. And I guess thinking of that, thinking of the listeners, most people aren't spending that kind of dollar per day on budgets. Is a lot of the stuff you're doing translating to people who are spending say $100 a day.

Oh yeah. So the. As an agency, we probably wouldn't work with clients that would be spending. Well actually saying that like some, like most of our clients we work with start from zero. So they're, they've not got into YouTube before, but we will have a look at their businesses and see that YouTube could be a huge potential. If they've never advertised on any platform before, that's when it's like a. We wouldn't necessarily work with those clients. We want to make sure they have some good performing funnels and things. But I mean, YouTube can work at all levels of capacity. We, most of our clients are spending more than $100 a. Because as soon as you start to see some opportunity, you'll scale. Go past that figure pretty quickly. But yeah, a lot of people have huge success with just like $100 a day and even less than that sometimes. So it is a platform where you can. I mean, I think that anything you have, like, different strategies based on your level of spend. Like, if you. If you're spending less than $3,000 a day, the approach is very much like, tackle the search moments, I call it. And then once you start going beyond that, you start to lean onto the Google's AI and their machine learning. And that's where you kind of get some huge scale. But, like, the longer you're running your ads and the better results you're getting, then the AI and the machine learning really dial in for you at that point. But you can't get into that from day one. So it has to be. You have to. We call it Feed the Pixel, but I'm getting quite technical at this point. John probably covered a lot of this information because he's an absolute brain box of this stuff.

Yeah, I mean, that's very similar to what we've heard from a lot of other guys, like Vince Reed, Billie Jean. Like all these guys, they're using other platforms is you got to kickstart somehow, but then feed the Pixel, kind of feed the big giant and let them kind of work out their magic to scale it up.

Well, it seems like the people that are doing real big scale, they kind of get to a point where they can actually turn off pretty much all targeting. And Google just knows who to put it in front of. Because the Pixel has so much data built into it.

Exactly. Yeah. A lot of the campaigns we build for our biggest clients now, we turn off all targeting. So we just say, google, do your thing. And we're very careful with those campaigns. It's not like you can set them and forget them. Some campaigns you build out where it might be search traffic, and you just know that you've been working on it for a couple of months and it's performing really well. You're not pushing it too hard on the budgets, and it's really reliable and consistent, and you don't get this fatigue issue you might get on Facebook or something. It's just. It just ticks along in the background, doing really good ROI and. And stays strong. But then if you were to go to, like, when you start to scale up and go to bigger audiences, you can see these big fluctuations. So you can have some really poor days. For like a week. And you just have to ride the storm to get through that. And then Google are really good, but the more, the more data you have and the more targeting you've tried out as well, means that Google have so much data on your audience they can just go and find it for you. And it's almost like humans get in the way at some point.

We can only control so many things and we only have controls for so many things. Whereas the Google pixel data and all the things that can be controlled inside of a campaign, we're nothing compared to what the AI can do. So then it just comes down to the creative piece and who's got the best performing ads as opposed to the actual ways you run the campaigns as such.

Yeah, that makes sense. And before getting into like the actual videos themselves, what are some indicators that you would like to see or that you would suggest people having before running some ads? So I know you mentioned a funnel, you know, maybe a specific type of offer or price point even.

Yeah. So whenever you have like a product that's got good margin, that's a great starting point. Like sometimes we shy away from some e commerce clients, not all e commerce clients, but some clients because it's a very competitive field and it's a very small margin. You can make it work on Facebook, sure. But with YouTube it tends to cost more to acquire a lead or interest, but that number can rival Facebook because it tends to be better quality traffic. So you might spend more getting it in the first place than someone like Facebook, but it will perform better in a different way. So you can actually get better results long term, it seems, because it's search based. And also someone's seen a video as well before they even come to your website. So it's a different quality of traffic.

When I look at campaigns, I like to see a good level of margin, normally 3x plus. So the cost of goods is only going to take up maybe 20% or 30% of the actual.

So you have more buffer to spend in order to get good results. But that's kind of like a rule of thumb that we tend to tend to aim towards. But I mean the two really important numbers to keep in mind are the maximum cost you're willing to take on per lead or per first milestone, like if that's a sale or if that's whatever you're measuring your success on, you gotta make sure you know what your maximum you're willing to spend on that is and then also what your ideal cost needs to be as well. And Try to form some hypothesis around how your funnel is going to perform as well. Like if you can say, okay, I expect to be able to acquire a lead for my webinar for $6 and then I want to make sure that we get a 40% show up rate and then a 10% sale rate on the webinar. If those numbers hit. That's what I want it to be, to track those important figures for yourself. And then you can like, then you can compare a lot of people, go in blind and be like, how do we get on? And then it's a bit more difficult to run it like that. We try and like put some predictions down and say, this is what we're expecting to see. So if we see a huge variation there, either something performed much better or performed much worse than we thought, then we know where to focus our efforts on. And you can improve things. But if you go in just testing out and just running some cold traffic, it could be done that way, and we've done that before. But it's much easier if you put sounds and milestones and what your expectations are throughout that process and kind of what you need to see as well. If you know what those numbers need to look like, then it does make the management of the ad campaigns a lot easier.

Yeah, no, that makes perfect sense. So now going back to the videos, I think so there's a lot to unpack with your story, which is really fascinating. I love that you started with psychology, so you're bringing the science to this whole thing here. What are some really fundamental psychology things that you bring into your videos when you're creating these things?

So one of the big things that we do that's very different to most is we will really try and be there for the user. And that sounds such a corny.

Obvious thing to say, but a lot of people will pay lip service to being there and actually being helpful to your user or your potential customer. But we try and do our very best to turn up at the right time and be as helpful as possible. So we will actually create different ads for different moments. So if you think about YouTube as a platform, it's very different to someone like Facebook. So Facebook, if you're targeting your ads, it's probably going to be either a custom audience that you've built yourself via interactions or emails that you've got already that you may have your audiences there, or it's going to be based on interest audiences and the way that people consume your ads on Facebook, it's very much a passive someone Sitting back, scrolling through their newsfeed rapidly. And you've got to try and grab their attention as much as possible. From the very beginning.

It'S very different on YouTube. So people go to YouTube with intent already. So they're kind of. They're looking for information. They're looking to know something or they're looking to do something or buy something. And as a result, when you know why people are going to YouTube in the first place and what they want, and you know that you're going to create ads for those different moments we call it, then it means you've already started off in a place where you don't need to go and try and grab their attention. The attention is already there. They're already leaning in, like typing in, looking for information. And we can be there when they're looking for that information. And so the whole, like, thought process before you even go and advertise on YouTube is different to someone like Facebook. And that's where we start. We start with, right. If we know we're going to. Let's say, for example, there's a. Well, actually, let's kind of think of something off the top of our head. So you guys, is there, Is there a business in mind that you think, let's work out how we can promote this business on YouTube. Do you have any idea in mind? Like a type of business?

Let's say like a SaaS product. So we're big affiliate marketers. Most a lot of our income comes from affiliate marketing. So we promote a lot of SaaS products. So let's just say like a SaaS tool to grow your email list.

Perfect. Okay, cool. So it's a SaaS tool to grow your email list. Then you might say to yourself, okay, well, what do people tend to look for before they want this product? Because they probably don't know the product exists. So there won't be like a brand equity that we can pull on just yet. It's like cold traffic. Haven't seen you before. They're probably typing into Google and YouTube things like how to grow my email list or how to promote my business or even how to run Facebook ads. Because if we think just before that realization, they might be at that point where they're kind of thinking about what they're looking for. Or it might even be like, what's the best CRM 2018? They might even type things that are much closer to a buying decision at that point as well. But all of those search queries come with a completely different psychology. Someone who's Looking for the best CRM 2018 or the best kind of analytics package is two different types of customer.

But they might both be interested in what you have to say. And as a result, you kind of like you. You would separate out those searches and say, right, let's say, for example, they're typing in best CRM in 2018. You might say, if we get in front of people when they're typing this in, what would we want to say? And create your ad all around that piece.

The difference I find that I see from some agencies is that you have a lot of really, really, really good video agencies, people that produce video. And that's amazing. And then you have a lot of AdWords companies that are ridiculously good at running search and display ads. But very rarely do you have a good AdWords agency that can run video ads well, or vice versa, a good video company that can run AdWords well. And so when you marry or you do your best to marry those two up, it tends to not work very well. So the way, the way to look at this is to say your video is your ad, but it's not a commodity. It's such a valuable piece of salesmanship, really, that is out there. And it's a piece that you're going to put in front of people. So you need to build a whole campaign around one video, not build a campaign and then see what video fits for that. And so when we do our videos, we're saying, great, well, if someone's typing in best CRM 2018, we're creating a video ad specifically for that search query. And the ad fits that. So there's a really high relevancy between the ad and the search term because then you're going to really hit home with that person and they're going to like, this is exactly what I wanted. This is the perfect advice. They're going to come through and realize that what you've got is it could be the perfect solution for what they have. And like, great, where do I sign up? It's doing your very best to be as smooth as possible for the search query. And then it's just a case of predicting all the different search queries your customers are potentially typing in and creating ads for each one of those search queries. It actually makes the job of creating really good ads a lot easier when you take that strategy, because you realize you're just going to say, right, well, there might be 43 different moments that we need to conquer and master over the next two years. If you wanted to do it that way. Great. Well, that's 43 videos we need to create. You could create that in a month, you could create that in a week, you could create that in over two years, however long it takes you to do it. But if you want the best results from YouTube, it's about segmenting those different moments in time that people are having where they know what their need is and delivering the perfect video for that person in that time. And if you do that, then you can get some really, really strong results. And that's when I come to the psychology that's kind of how I think about the videos and trying to just give like the best advice and the best or the most relevant advice I can to people. So you master one moment at a time.

That's smart. And it's actually very similar to what we do with Google Ads. We're actually having Mike Rhodes on the show later and it's kind of a very similar strategy to the way he just does Google search ads. Now when you mentioned the types of ads, you said they'll search for something. Now are you showing the ad as I might not know the terms, but is it, you know, you have the search ads that kind of show your video when they search a term and then you also have the ads that kind of you tack onto the front of somebody else's video. Are you like which, which kind of ads are you talking about? And again, I'm sorry, I don't remember all the terms off the top of my head. I think it's, I think it's search ads and in stream ads.

Yeah, yeah, it's pretty close. They changed the terminology recently so it's different now. Just a heads up as well. Mike Rhodes is awesome. So if John gave me a heads up and like and saying that I'm good, then Mike's on a whole nother level. So as you probably guys know. So great show. But yeah, so when it comes to the ads, so once you're talking about when this, you might type in a search query and at the top of the search results you'd see a sponsored listing there with like a thumbnail and some text there like a title and a short description. Those are, those are called discovery ads and they used to be called search like in search ads and then they changed all the terminology. So you'd also find those videos if you're watching a video on YouTube and on the right hand side you sometimes see like a sponsored ad listing with the thumbnail and the title and description that's also the discovery Ad two separate videos. You can even get them on the homepage of YouTube as well, depending on how you're advertising. But the, those are, those are called discovery. They're part of something called a TrueView ad platform. So what that means is you pay per view. So in this instance with the discovery ad, you pay when someone clicks to play your video. But it's great because if they don't click to play it, you still that thumbnail got that branding out there. And you'll have like you can, it's great for remarketing because if they've watched your video before or they've gone to your website before, you can then run these discovery ads as remarketing videos. And it's just like your brand is constantly in front of them, which is great. So there's those sorts of ads and the other ads that are, the other ones you talked about are called in stream ads. Most people know them as pre roll ads. We have that five seconds before you can press a skip ad button. And the financial model behind those ads is great because again it's part of the TrueView platform. So it means that you only pay when someone views your video. But because you're interrupting the viewer, YouTube don't consider that a view until you've watched past 30 seconds. So it means if someone watches 29 seconds of your pre roll ad or your in stream ad and then presses skip ad button, then you won't pay a penny. And it means that you are kind of, you're only getting really high quality people come through when they watch your videos. If you structured your video in the right way so you can, you can structure videos knowing that's the financial model and you can get some really, really clever and great results when you create video ads knowing that's the way the ads work. And that's why it's so different YouTube ads to someone like Facebook ads, because a completely different model. But just a couple of days ago as well, they just released the square versions and the vertical versions of videos on YouTube as well. So.

That'S going to be really cool. I haven't seen any load up on my phone or they're just mobile right now. But I haven't seen any of the ads load up on my phone. But I'm desperate to see what a square and what a vertical video looks like on YouTube. It's going to take up the whole phone.

Or we've already started running some ads for our clients in that way. Just quick, quick repurpose of a, like a normal 16 by 9 video into a vertical video just because we've got all the assets we need to create them. And I haven't got any results yet, but I've been told they should be amazing. But that's obviously Google telling me they should be amazing.

Right. Little biased.

So, so with the, with the ad stuff that you're talking about here, where when somebody searches for, for the terms you mentioned, like let's say you pick 45 terms or something like that, when people search those, are you leveraging both types of ads, the discovery ads and the in stream?

Yeah, we'll use both, but we tend to have our focus on the in stream ads. You just get much more reach. And discovery ads are great and they can be very, very profitable. The way that we build the ads typically is with in stream in mind and then discoveries. We have to create different types of ads just because with discovery, if someone clicks to play your video, they're expecting a good content video and you want to give them that. If you hit them with an ad, they weren't expecting that. They're expecting an ad with an in stream ad. But because you're paying, as soon as someone clicks to play your video with a discovery ad, then you want to give them, you've already paid as soon as they start watching. So you want to give them a really good experience. And you want the thumbnail to represent what's actually going to be covered in the video. You don't want to say hey, click this thumbnail for because you're going to see me naked or something like that. That might not be the best headline ever.

Yeah, or maybe it would be. Yeah, but if you had that, that thumbnail there, you want to make sure that people know that if they click it, that's exactly what they're going to get on the video. And then from that video you want to just get deliver great advice and leave them wanting more. So they're like, oh great, if you've just covered that in three minutes, what it was going to be like if I go and join your on demand training or your whatever you've got for them, like that promotion point, or they're going to buy something straight away from you as well. But you, there's always a, it's a different type of ad, the discovery ad, than it would be a in stream ad.

Right. And I guess the in stream ad sort of has that side benefit of just branding as well. Right. I mean, even if people just watch the first five seconds and then click away, they're still Seeing your face. I mean, that's essentially how Tai Lopez got famous, right?

Yeah, exactly. You can be famous for the wrong reasons sometimes. I mean, Ty is famous. The wrong reasons. But the. So if a lot of people are seeing your ad and skipping after five seconds, then it, it can be a slightly negative thing. Sometimes that's true. So you want to make sure.

It'S always a way up between.

The side of things, which is like, I want to give people a great experience, which is really important as well as you want to let people know this is an ad. So they skip if they're not interested. A lot of the times I see a lot of people do these videos which are really funny, really engaging.

But they only really get the crux of the matter, that this is actually a direct response ad by the point. It's like 45 seconds into the video or something. And then people are like, actually, you know what? Now I don't want to see this ad. I'm not interested. I was interested in the story. And that's really funny. That's cool. But I'm not interested in buying anything. But of course, if you're running those sorts of ads, then you're getting. You're paying. When someone watches past 30 seconds, and that high engagement rate is great because that's what YouTube want to see. But also it's terrible sometimes from a cost per acquisition standpoint because you're having so many people watch past 30 seconds that are never going to buy from you, that that entertainment side of things ruined it. So you've got to be careful about how you create the videos. And I'm more than happy to go into that if you want me to.

Well, does YouTube ads. Well, we'll definitely touch on that in a second. I think that's where we're going to kind of go Next. But does YouTube ads, do they have like a relevant score like Facebook and normal Google search ads, where if the majority of the people click to skip the ad right after five seconds, you know you're gonna pay higher cost per click just because it's, you know, they're seeing it as not relevant. Is that, does that exist in YouTube ads as well?

Yeah, you get, you get that. So your display impression share is called will decrease as you. If you get a very bad kind of like a quality score.

I think they call it ad rank. So it's like they say, here's why you're not getting the amount of impressions you could do, and it'll tell you why. And normally it'll say, because you're either not spending enough or your ad rank is poor. So it means that your relevancy score is poor. Basically. If you want to compare it to Facebook.

We sometimes know that.

And know that we might create an ad where we're not expecting the engagement rate or the view rate to be high. And a lot of people press and skip ad button. We know we're gonna get penalized for it, but sometimes we don't mind either because we'll just pay more. Because if it's, if it's a case of you can get more exposure because you can pay more, then I'm happy to start paying more in the big long term. If you start realizing that you're not actually getting like much of the impression share, then you need to start thinking about that. Whether you're going to create new videos or sometimes you can actually just almost. You can't re upload the same video, but you can, you can actually save your video as a new video inside the enhancements of your YouTube account and then you can run the same video ad, but it refresh the stats. It's a bit of a hack. I'm not, I'm never a fan of hacks and things like that, but you can do that and that will kind of like just reset the numbers again. But I mean, there might be a negative impact on the whole account long term. I know that I've spoken to John, John Belcher quite a bit. And a lot of the time if you've got a very good organic YouTube channel, and it's sometimes good idea to run your ads from a separate channel, so you might create another separate channel. It can kind of be not like a branded big channel. It can just be like all the ads run as unlisted, so you'll never see them. But it can be advantageous to do it that way because if you have a lot of video, if you get a lot of video views in your ads, which you'll inevitably have, and the view rate is very poor, it can drag down the whole account or the whole YouTube channel because you've got these videos in there that are performing what seems like badly. They're performing ridiculously well as an advert, but not very good in terms of what the actual YouTube channel is looking for. So that can be something to consider sometimes as well.

Interesting. Okay, well, let's circle back to. And I think you led us down the perfect path to ask about structure. You know, like video structure and how that looks for these specifically the in stream ads.

Yeah, okay. Perfect. So the we, so there's, there's lots of different strategies when it comes to how to run your video. So we've done things where at the end of the video we have a click to the website, which is an obvious one to do. We've had it so that at the end of the video we don't click to the website, we actually segment the audience and give them an option of A or B and they can go and watch other videos. That's worked really, really well for different clients as well. We've done things where we cascade videos. So it means that if you've watched one video, you don't see it again, you'll see another video and then you don't see that one again, you'll see another video. So you can, you can set up these really clever strategies as an, as an account. But if we keep it simple for now and just say, right, we're going to run one video ad then and you want to get, and it needs to be direct response and you want to see a really good return on ad spend or roas, then.

There'S always kind of like a structure that we tend to follow that performs really well. And the first five seconds is obviously critical. Like that's where people are deciding whether to skip ad or not. And most people tend to try and do like this big attention grabbing start, which is fine, but remember, people are already attentive on YouTube. They're already listening, they're already kind of like there for a reason. If you're being really relevant with your ads, then you should find that just by being relevant at the start of your video can be really powerful. So we'll normally have a video whereby at the start of the video we'll call out the person based on their demographic or based on their intent as well. So let's say for example, they were typing in how to grow my email list. You might start off with like, hey look, if you're looking to grow your email list, you might start off the video like that and it's like, that's exactly what I was looking for. It doesn't have to be this crazy start or anything, it just has to be super relevant. Because if you're looking for that and a video starts like that, then you're in, you're immediately. But just start with exactly what the customer is looking for and then they're never going to press skip out at that point you've caught their attention just because you're being super relevant.

If the demographics are really important as well. So let's say for example, you know that this ad is going to. Let's say for example we've got a client in the fitness space. We might say this ad is going to 18 to 24 year old males. And you know that then at the start of the video you could call them out, you could say, hey, if you're a male between the ages of 18 and 24, that might not be the best way to start a video. But you might just have imagery that shows that. So it's like say for example, they're looking to lose weight. Example you say.

If you're a male looking to lose weight and then you'd have an image of an 18, 24 year old that would be interested in losing weight compared to if you ran that ad to a 50 year old. Plus then you'd have a different imagery at the start of the video. So we just like create different images and different intent and demographic like beginnings to the videos. So you might have a core message but actually have like 15 different intros based on the different demographic data or different intent data. So you just know you can be like as relevant as possible in that first five seconds. If you do that, then you're going to grab their attention better than ever anything else you can do. There's always a case for things like pattern interrupts and really clever wording and copywriting skills and that type of thing. But I mean, I just tend to try and keep it as simple as possible by just being as relevant as possible. And just whenever I go into, if I'm going to shoot a video with a client, I'll definitely be doing 10 to 15 different intros. And also because I want to split test 10 to different 15 intros as well. It doesn't have to be just purely about the intent and the demo. It can be. We don't know if this starts going to be better than this start. So let's just test it and let's run it and see what happens. But it's so easy to swap out the first 15 seconds or the first even five seconds and then the middle section of the video can stay consistent at that point. So you just edit in the middle section which is going to be much more consistent. So that intro is important.

And then something we've been noticing with a lot of the videos that we've been running is that the data we've seen, we did like a massive audit across all the videos from all of our clients across many different industries. And what we noticed was that There were two trends that were really like, went against what I ever thought I knew about video.

So one of the things we noticed was that the more people watch, the less likely they are to click. Which is like, interesting. I wasn't expecting that. I was thinking, well, if I watch a video ad, I watch it and then when it comes to the time that call to action at the end of the video, that's when I click. And if I've watched more of it, I'm more likely to click. That's not the case at all. That was an assumption that I had that I'd lived with for a while and it punished me. And I like to be. I do get kind of caught up in the romance of creating a really good video sometimes because I feel like that would be. But then the numbers like beat me back into the. Beat me back into being a direct response marketer again. So what we noticed is that like, so the more people watch, the less likely they are to click. But also the more people watch, the more expensive it gets for you as an advertiser. So if you start off this great story and people are really excited about this story and want to listen to what happens in the story and then they watch. That was a great story, but great. I don't really care about the product that's going to cost you a fortune to run those ads because they're going to watch past 30 seconds, you pay there and no one's going to click to go and buy your products. So I don't necessarily look at click through rate as a big indicator of success, but I do look at how long or the percentage of people that watch past 30 seconds, which is also known as your view rate or engagement rate. And I try and get that down to around about 17%. That's kind of a sweet spot that we've seen with our data to say that if you can get your view rate like only 17% of people get past 30 seconds, but we know that the best people watching past 30 seconds, then you can run some really effective campaigns. So what we do to enable that is we normally do like a soft call to action prior to 30 seconds being up. So people know this is an ad. Now that does mean that we put some kind of. My creative team don't like it when I put those boundaries around them sometimes. But they produce the best stuff when they're given boundaries. So we've got a couple of script writers that we work with on a regular basis. And when we work with those guys, I'm like, hey, guys, you won't love me for this, but this is the way you need to structure this ad. This goes against how video should work and all this sort of stuff. And I'm like, well, that's, that's the way that things are on YouTube and you've got to, like, learn to work with the platform. And so we do. We'll kind of call in the first five seconds. We'll call out the person and their intent. And then before 20 seconds is up, if we can, we'll have like a. Some sort of soft call to action to be like, hey, by the way, if you want to learn the five ways to lose your belly fat, I've actually got a whole video to show you exactly how to do this. And it's like a half an hour video training. You can click here and go and watch that immediately. But let me just run you through these five things really quickly. And then in the video ad, you actually go through the five things, and so you can kind of give them good advice and value right there in the video so they can trust you and love your content. But if they know this is an ad, many people will skip at that point because they're like, oh, it's an ad. I don't want to see this. And that's great. You want people to Skip away before 30 seconds is up because you don't want to be paying for those people. So we do the soft call to action part of 30 seconds. And then in terms of length of video, we're all good. Like, we. We've seen videos that have been seven minutes in length and worked ridiculously well. We've seen videos that have been 45 seconds in length and works really, really well. It kind of comes down to the experience post ad. Like, what are you asking people to do? If it's opt in for a webinar, then it can probably be shorter than if you're asking people to buy something for $50. So it's. You need to just kind of put enough into the video to know that they're likely to take the next significant milestone, whatever that might be. But I mean, yeah, if you've got a really strong ad with really interesting content and things, then by all means, make sure your video is a longer video and then just ask the call to action. Just make sure that they know that this is an ad prior to 30 seconds being up.

Makes sense. Yeah, no, that's. That structure is perfect. So about five seconds in, super relevant call out, and then prior to 20 soft call to action of some sort there to kind of go forward. How about the style or the type of video do you do on?

Before we go there, I actually wanted to ask just about the structure of the actual video itself. So you got the five seconds where you're kind of calling them out, you got a soft call to action and then you kind of go to content. And then at the end of it, do you have like a stronger call to action or is it just kind of content and then video ends?

Yeah. So at the end of the video we have a strong call to action there. We're kind of like try and make it as crystal clear as possible and also make it as easy as possible. A lot of the time I see a lot of videos where they really kind of fall down because of a bad call to action. So you want to give people enough time to click. Sometimes people will carry on talking right up into the end of the video and then the video would stop and the next video would load up. Um, and people were willing to click, but they just were waiting for you to stop talking. And then by the time you start talking they're like, oh, the other videos loaded up. That was meant to be seeing. So you lose that click, which is crazy. So give them eight seconds at the end of the video. And something that we've done recently is we started adding countdown timers on the end of those eight seconds. So we give them eight seconds to like, we just. It's almost like someone's paused the video. But then we do like a countdown timer for five seconds and that just boosts the number of click throughs because it's just that pause and that scarcity factor. That time's running out. Now's the time to do it. But also we've noticed that based on those clicks, we've got many more clicks, but we've not had a decrease in the sale rate as well. So it's almost like as soon as they click the link and it goes to the website, it's almost like the brain has been refreshed and you just got more people there. And they all act in the same way after that, which is really interesting. So it's just a case of like, how do we get more people to the website? But yeah, there's so much stuff that we'd always be thinking about in the video. One of the things we try and do is the content in particular that we put together. We always want to make sure that we're teaching something, but we'll put some sort of action plan in place for them. So it feels like there's a three step action plan. Now it might mean that you might have 27 things that people have to do in order to, to be successful based on your system. Like if you had a, they're Talking about the SaaS products, for example, the SaaS service that you're promoting, it might be there's like 10 things they need to do but we're trying to distill it into three steps. So people just know, yeah, I can do that. That three steps seems easy enough. And of course there might be more things for them to do, as I say, but if you can phrase it in three step formula, then it's just easier for them to buy into on the video. And so they kind of like get it and like, yeah, cool, I've got the framework, I understand how this works. And if they feel confident about understanding how things work, then I'm so much more likely to take action. So that's a really important part of the video. I mean we follow like an EDUCATE formula that I kind of coined which follows like seven steps for the actual video which is like the educate is an acronym but the A is for AIM in terms of like the customer's aim or the viewer's aim. The difficulty is the D. So what stands in their way from achieving what they're trying to do right now? The U is the understanding. So the emotional understanding, make sure they feel like you understand what they're going through. Then it's at the C which would be building up your credibility. Then it'd be A, the action plan, that three step plan that we talked about. Then it would be T, which would be teaching part of that action plan. So you try and unpack one area that can provide them huge amounts of value, but they just realize that this is one small subset of them, the whole thing. So they want to go and get more. And then the E is the, the exit point as well. Like making sure that people know exactly how to go to your website and what they need to do next. If you can kind of future pace that for them so they kind of, they see what they're going to do. So not just click here and go and sign up on my next page. It's like you say click here, you'll see this and so you can just like illustrate what the next page is going to look like. Within the video ad. You put your name and email here, press the submit button and we'll give you the online training or whatever you have for them at that point. And so you just want to try and make it as crystal clear as possible as to what the next steps look like. So when they get there, it feels super familiar to them and exactly what they're expecting. And the more we do of that, you'll find that the click through rate increases, but also.

The sales rates and the conversion rates on the website increase and the costs decrease as well.

Oh, I love that. Now with the three step process that you just mentioned, so do you kind of tell them, look, we have this three step system to achieve X. The steps are X, Y and Z. In this video we're going to show you step one and then they kind of go to the next page to get steps in two and three. Or are you laying out steps one, two and three all within that content of the video?

So yeah, so I'd show people that there's like three steps that makes it easy for them to buy into. So let's say for example, it's the SaaS products you're selling. It might be like, okay, so step one is that you. I'm trying to think of an idea now off the top of my head, but it might be something like step one, you just use our simple form creator that you can embed onto your website that looks like this and you can always have someone embed it into the site and see what it looks like. That's step one. Step two is you drive traffic to the page and then step three is you make sure you build your email campaign. Now that might be incorrect and, but I'm sure you get the picture of where I'm going with that. So you kind of make it feel like, wow, there's three steps and I can imagine how my email list is going to grow now that's cool. Okay, cool. And then you say, hey, look, there's so much stuff that we can talk about in these three steps, but let me just unpack one of them right now. And then what you want to do is share with them something they've never heard before or something that's like really, really valuable to them. Not like run of the mill education around list building, but more a case of like, hey, did you know if you do this instead of the normal traditional way, you're going to find that you actually increase your opt in rates by or your form submission rates by this much or your checkout page will increase conversions by another 10% if you do this on the page or you try and give them something that's like super valuable, but it's Like a very small piece of the much bigger pitch. They already know that exists. So it just makes them feel like, well, if I've got one amazing tip from this, just imagine how much more would be in.

Those other two steps and more of this third step that I was talking about as well. So it wouldn't necessarily be like, you can have chapter one for free right now. It'd be more a case of let me just pull out one small segment of this three step plan from one of the steps that will be really, really valuable for you. And it just means that people kind of get an experience of what it would be like to own the software or to do business with you or own the product. It's, it's just trying to make people feel like this is really, really cool and I want to get more of this stuff.

Yeah, no, I love that it's just tangible. It's not giving them too much, but giving them enough. Where it's like, okay, they understand me. That's kind of the very relevant message. So they understand me. But now, okay, they're giving me value, but oh, they're giving me an aha. Okay, I'll check out more, more and take that action with you.

Exactly. I mean, you can always phrase it in a way where you say, look, obviously in this one short ad, I can't unpack everything for you, but let me just unpack one thing for you right now just to give you a demonstration of how powerful this is. So you can phrase it in such a way where people are kind of being convinced as they go through as opposed to learning. It's wrapped up in a learning, but really they're just saying, that's amazing and if this is that good, where do I go and find out more? You want people to be at the end of the video saying, that was amazing. What's next? Or how do I take the next step? You want them to already be thinking that in their brain before you get to the point where you do.

The call to action makes sense. Now that's. Let's see. So over to style or the branding of this video, how this thing's made. Do you prefer any one type of style?

Like the look of the video?

Yeah, the look of the video, is it images, person on camera, have you found anything to be better?

Good question. So I'm always happy to explore any type of creative and how it's been done, like the style and the brand and things. I always want to make sure it's on brand. So I'd never do Something that's like a, if a, if it was like a personal brand and someone's like a big personality, I would want to definitely use that in the video.

Because it makes just make sense. And if they're, let's say for example we're working with a client where they're constantly speaking on stage, for example, then we want to show that and we want them to be on the video as well. That's just going to work out a lot better.

If it's a product then of course I want it to be visually very, very appealing and you can see exactly how the product's used and what it looks like and things. Some products and services just lend themselves perfectly to the style of video and it's just obvious but I'm always open. Like normally the thing that I tend to do is when it comes to YouTube is to not worry a huge amount about the style of the video from the get go. Just because I want to find like I want to do a very good job in the video. Creative but not gonna crazy in terms of spending hundreds of thousands of dollars on a video that may not work. So we kind of test small test like with simplish ads and then say great, we've got proof of concept, it's working really well. Now let's maybe up the production because a lot of the time as soon as you get up in the you start to get more creative and you start up in the production value, it doesn't always increase conversions. So it just depends on what you're looking to do. If it's, it's brand awareness then you probably need to start with a really, really good kind of add and make it look really nice. If you're thinking about direct response then I'll just get started with a pretty simple ad to begin with. Then based on proof of concept and you tried out the different audiences, you know what seems to be resonating best. Then I'll say great, now let's start testing some better start like better quality level. But in terms of like if we like you see a lot of videos whereby the like if you look at like animation versus actors on camera versus the business owner be on camera versus a product type video. Some of that just is decided by the brand and you want to try and keep it on brand as much as possible. But then like it's. I'm, I'm open like I'm, I'm. I like the quality to be quite high. If I can like not as I would never shoot something on an iPhone that works really well. Someone like Facebook. I've never seen it work as well on YouTube because I feel like YouTube's closer to TV than it is your social connection. So if it's a social thing, handheld cameras and that sort of thing can work really well. It has worked well on YouTube as well, but I feel like it's closer to TV production works best as an ad. But that said, that's kind of like just my preference. It's not something I've tested huge amounts as be like this works better than this. And it's obviously different for different industries as well.

Yeah, that makes sense because I mean when you're just kind of scrolling through Facebook or you're scrolling through Instagram, you're used to seeing people just kind of like point their iPhone at their face and talk. That's just kind of what you're used to seeing on that platform. YouTube. You're not really used to that. You're used to seeing, you know, clips from TV shows or, you know, high production value stuff. Like I watched Casey Neistat a lot. You know, stuff like that is kind of what you're used to seeing on YouTube. So you kind of want to create to the platform that you're. You're trying to advertise on. So that makes a lot of sense.

Yeah, I mean that's a great example. Casey Neistat, for example, he creates videos where, you know, it's. It would be the sort of thing that would be okay for Netflix but probably not like broadcast tv. Like a Netflix documentary style is kind of like the level of production that I think is possible and then what works really, really well. So I wouldn't necessarily have a handheld like iPhone for an ad, but having good DSLR cameras and creating some stylish shots and things doesn't have to cost the earth. And a good videographer in your local town will be able to do that sort of stuff. Find any 18 to 25 year old who's done some sort of media degree or media studies or something along those lines will probably be able to shoot some really, really cool footage. And, and that's plenty good enough. You don't need to know, you don't need to kind of go crazy on production, but just enough, just a good enough standard that kind of is brand worthy, if that makes sense.

Yep. And that's, it's kind of brought me back to back in the day when I used to do a lot of videos for clients. I would do a lot of product launches and you know, teaser videos for A lot of the Internet marketing guru type people, but also big SaaS companies, and a lot of them would want these animations, these really fancy videos. But usually the first tester we always did was a simple keynote, you know, well designed slides, but mix it up with a, with some kind of voiceover, layer it up together and usually that was like our first test on the market. And more often than not those types of videos usually outperformed some high production animation we did. And occasionally even when they're on camera. Yeah, so usually simple is better to test, at least in those days. But it seems like that would translate over here as well.

Yeah. And also a big factor of this is the speed of execution as well. Because I know that if you've got like 43 moments that you want to tackle, for example, 43 different search terms and search queries, you want to be super relevant all the time, then you need to be good at creating video quickly. Right. And in the good old days when I first started creating video, I used to have one of those, the flip cameras and if you remember those to film and just like plug it straight into your laptop. And I used to create video a day really simply. But then as I upgraded to a really nice DSLR camera with lights and microphones, I'll be down to like one video a month just because the whole setup is just psychologically difficult to get into and, and as a result you just do less production. It can look really, really stylish but then you need better editing skills and all the other stuff comes into it. So it's like one of the best things that we recommend to clients is to have like a, just a white background studio light set up microphone, like a lapel microphone. So just stand there and go and deliver great content.

And if they can just do that, it means that we've got like, we can always improve it with like text on the video and use B roll footage and all that sort of stuff. But we know we can just, we can work with that and that will perform very well. And, and it means that they can just bang out loads and loads and loads of videos for us that we can keep on testing loads of different ideas because it's just like one day in the studio, like that can produce 50 videos, whereas if you're on location shooting with drones and all the clever stuff, it'll be like one video can take a week to create. So and it may not work as well. So we tend to, we tend to try and start simply and whilst keeping production quality high.

Love it now I have a couple sort of random sort of selfish questions and then. And then we'll go ahead and wrap up because I know we're already kind of going over the time we said, but this has been two too good to stop you.

With. With YouTube ads. What is sort of the policy on affiliate marketing? Because like I mentioned earlier, a big part of our revenue is affiliate revenue, and that's mostly ad driven. So, you know, we drive a lot of ads to offers and that's a big chunk of how we make our money. So what, what's sort of YouTube's policy on affiliate marketing? And you know, have you seen these strategies work well as affiliates?

Yeah. So we've done a lot of work with affiliates to promote different products. So it can definitely work.

The offers obviously have to be consistent with compliance. So if you're like, I'm not sure what sort of promotions people tend to do, but a lot of the time when it's like mlm, if people are kind of in that sort of world, then that could be difficult to get that up and running successfully because YouTube are kind of cracking down on that type of activity.

Right.

But if you were to promote other people's products or have your own landing page you're promoting, as long as they're compliant, you should be good to go. And you can, you can use affiliate tracking links as well within the actual ads. So you're good to go there as well. And they just, there's a few technical setups. So it's like if you have. If your landing page is very lightweight and there's no website behind it, that can be sometimes a bit of a problem, because I just want to make sure that the actual thing you're offering is consistent. But also if your landing pages is on a different domain than your thank you page, that could be a problem as well. They want to see consistency. So it's like a. It's not just a shell of a promotion. It's more of like, here's the actual company. But there are always ways around it and there's always ways of promoting it according to guidelines that Google do. So that's all good. You can definitely do it that way.

Cool.

Makes sense. And then the other question I had was about podcasting.

And I don't.

I don't really know where, I don't really know if there's a way to sort of tie this in. But I'm curious if you've ever seen people use YouTube ads to promote a podcast? Because we're podcasters. And it's kind of our, our main thing in our business that we put the most focus on. So I'm just kind of curious if you've ever seen anything around podcasters using YouTube ads.

We've never been asked to run YouTube ads for podcasts, which is really interesting actually. We've, we've done some app promotions and that's really interesting. It's a very different style of.

Ways you promote things because obviously the conversion pixels are difficult to track on an app compared to like a website, for example. That's not, not impossible. It's just, it's different when it comes to podcasts. We haven't done that. But I imagine that if you have a podcast running, then that could almost be the perfect kind of offer for YouTube. I think you just need to kind of go straight from the ad to get people to go and register for the podcast. Depends on the funnel of how you get them to do it. So you go straight from your ad, straight to the podcast page. But I'm not sure on the tracking of that because the beauty is you want to make sure you can track the activity there because then over time that whole account will get very, very.

Dialed in. You can use the machine learning to really grow and scale the podcast. But let's say for example, you did it to an email opt in or something like that and then have people, if you give them a gift along with joining the podcast or something and you had show notes or something like that. I don't know, whatever you could do to, to help them out with the podcast and the consumption of that, that would be really, really interesting to see how that would perform because if you know what the value is of each listener is to a podcast, then you could really run some very, very effective campaigns, I believe.

Yeah, and that's exactly, I was just thinking of stream of thought here is we have a variety of guests like yourself, but spanning a variety of categories. But we typically like to push to our show notes pages where you know, we have all of our pixels. We do have opt in show notes and you know, links to not only the, the podcast guest, you know, website or offers, but maybe some other affiliate offers that we can then segment folks. So that would probably be the route to go.

And yeah, we, we've done, we've done a lot of promotion on subscribers. So not to a podcast but to go to a YouTube channel. We've done that a few times. Not as much as we do selling products and things, but the, we normally do it as a side benefit when clients want to grow their YouTube accounts really quickly. And so we create videos which are kind of asking people just to subscribe to the channel and they can perform very, very well. It's very difficult to track that because the ad accounts aren't geared up to show you all the granular detail about what's actually getting new subscribers. And it's difficult to optimize the accounts for that. But the. But you can. We were getting like subscribers for like 15 cents a subscriber. And of course then you can remarket the subscribers with more ads. You can. It's like, it's a really nice micro action that people are taking to know that they're engaged. But then you can follow up with those subscribers with more ads. For some of the other stuff you do, we normally, if people don't take action on the first offer or the second offer we put in front of people, that's normally our third thing to do, to say, hey, look, you're engaging with our ads, why don't you subscribe? And you'll get access to more of our content that we release on a regular basis. So if you're uploading your podcast episodes to YouTube, you could engage with them that way as well.

Love it. Okay, yeah, maybe we'll experiment with that. We'll report back to you.

Yeah, I'd love to see how that works out.

Yeah, it's a little different. So wrapping up here, I want to definitely give you a shout out for your new book coming out. I know it's not available quite yet, but actually around the time this podcast drops, it probably would be right around that date. So Viewability, do you want to chat really quickly about that?

Yeah, of course.

It's taken about three years to write a book. I've written other books and been like a co author for advertising books and things with Mike Rhodes, in fact, that we talked about earlier. But I mean, so this one called Viewability is like my first main book that I've written. It's all about YouTube advertising. It's about how to think about YouTube, how to get in front of your customers, how to put the perfect ad in front of them, how to make sure your Funnel fits for YouTube and the best type of funnels to use. So it's very, very tactical. But it's also one of those books where if you go on a flight, you could probably read it in a three hour flight, for example. So it was like from the actual concept and the very start of creating the book, it was much more a case of like read it. You don't have to take huge numbers of notes and like a how to book. It's more a case of once you read the book, you get a real firm understanding of how YouTube works. So you can, you have the right mindset going in and know what's possible as well. So it can, it's hopefully an inspiring book not from a, not from a typical inspiring read, but more a case if you read and understand how YouTube works as an ad platform to be able to use that for your business. So yeah, it's, it's, it's been going through many, many iterations and it's written with a company that's helped me write it just to make sure it's readable because I'm pretty good at video but I'm terrible at writing. So the book is actually a really good read now. But I mean, yeah, as you say, it's going live on the 10th of the 10th, and if people are interested then I'm sure we have links in the show notes or something to promote that for sure.

So it's October 10th, not exactly sure when this is going live, but either way we'll link them up definitely in the show notes. But yeah, that's, that's a, it's, it's going to be a fascinating read because that's just YouTube. There's just so much happening. And you know, this is a probably a glimmer of what's in that book, of what we just chatted about in this podcast. But wrapping up, is there a maybe another book or something you tend to refer to often that you'd like to recommend here to the listeners?

Do you know, I've, I tend to listen to loads of books. I kind of get Audible and I listen to loads of books. Some of the books that have like influenced me massively over time. So the books that really influenced how I think about advertising has been Confessions of an Advertising man from David Ogilvy. That was like something I go back to probably once a year along with scientific advertising with Claude Hopkins, just on an advertising basis. Those ones feels like it's the old school boys kind of showing the new. Like we always think like it's completely new now advertising. But the principles are still very much the same. We're still humans and acts in very similar ways whether we're online or offline. So those two from an ads perspective has always been really interesting on that as well. Like Made to Stick by Chip and Dan Heath. Those guys wrote a really, really good book about psychology. And I Apply a lot of that stuff to video because it's all about how you can get your message to stick and things. That's a really, really good book if you're looking to get into video creation as well. It's not. It doesn't focus on video, but the principles at play there are just so sound. And then my favorite book of recent time is the Pumpkin Plan by Mike Michalowicz. That for me feels like just such a clever book and a really, really insightful read into how to grow a company. And I've been putting some of that stuff into action recently and seeing great results. So that's been a. Another great read of mine, Mike Michalowicz's Pumpkin Plan.

Love it. We actually just had Mike Michalowicz's episode for our show was actually on our recording date.

We're actually.

What day are we recording this on? September 19th. So his episode actually went live yesterday. We interviewed Mike about his newest book, Clockwork.

That's absolutely excellent.

If you like the Pumpkin plan, definitely pick up Clockwork.

I feel bad because, yeah, we had.

Him on the show. That's in my reading list. Yeah, he's such a cool dude, right? He's so cool.

He's awesome. Yeah. He actually bought one of our affiliate products and, and we saw his name in there, so we had to reach out to him and it's just super cool. We had him on the show and we're going to be on his pretty soon, so I love how that works.

Awesome.

Tom. Well, where's the best place people can check you out? Obviously we're going to link folks to the book once that's live. Any other.

The best website is viewability.co.uk that's the home of the Our agency, as well as the books going to be promoted from there as well. And we've got a course coming out there as well, so those. All those things will be all hosted within viewability.co.uk.

Awesome. Perfect. Well, we're going to link it all up. So if you guys, if you're driving or whatever, just check out those show notes and we're going to link you up there and you can check out Tom's stuff. I highly recommend the book and everything you're doing and then definitely listen to John Belcher too, as the second half of. Of this whole conversation here. Tom, it's been awesome, man. Thanks so much.

Thank you so much, guys. It's been so much fun being on here, so thank you and hopefully I'll come back another time. As well.

Hey, you're always welcome. We can nerd out on this stuff all day.

Sounds good. All right, buddy.

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