Travis Chappell - How To Get To Know Anyone On The Planet

When you first start, and you've never talked to anybody like that, your initial reaction to thinking about possibly interviewing them is it's impossible. You know, you just write it off immediately. It's just, ah, it's impossible. It's impossible. It's impossible. And the more you tell yourself it's impossible, the more you begin to believe that it's impossible, which then prevents you from doing any work in that direction. So I kind of just had this realization early on that, like, you know, what? If somebody has a pulse, it's possible to connect with them. I just have to figure out how.

This is an intro. Intro, intro, intro.

Hustle and Flowchart with your boy, my.

Boy, Matt Wolf and Joe Fear.

Hey, welcome back to the Hustle and Flowchart podcast with your hosts, Matt Wolfe and Joe Fear.

Hey, that was a good intro, Matt. Thank you. That was very professional. It sounds like you've been doing this a while.

Yeah, it's always professional until you comment on how professional it is.

Well, Matt, I think you are a professional networker as well.

Would you agree? I mean, we do it for a living, but I wouldn't say I'm the best at it.

No, you're not. I'm better. You're right. But you know who's even better?

Travis Chappell.

That's right. So we have Travis Chappell today on the podcast with us, and he actually has. You know, what makes it official and why he's better?

Because he has Guestio.

Well, that's one of them. Yes. Guestio is his software for connecting you. Yes. You listening to amazing people like Manny Pacquiao.

Yeah. And Les Brown.

And Les Brown.

And John Lee Dumas. And JLD and.

Oh, wait, that's jld.

Yeah. John Lee Dumas.

Jld Same Zipper. And Chris Comitas.

Yes, him too.

And Matt Wolf and Joe Fear.

Yep.

I'm not on there yet, but I will be today.

By the time this episode's out and people are hearing it, you will be.

Matt's free, so you can go get him.

I'm very expensive. I set my price at 20,000. I want to be the highest paid person on Guestio.

I wonder if anything stuck. All right, we don't want to give anybody ideas, but we'll do that. That right after this. All right, so, Travis, I know that the other reason is he has a really badass podcast that is absolutely top rated. It's. It's actually been featured by Forbes as the top 10 podcasts that will change your life alongside Joe Rogan, Gary Vaynerchuk, Tim Ferriss, and many others. His web or his podcast is called Build. You'd network. The dude is like, if you go through there and scroll through his guests and all that, you'd be like, oh, damn. Oh, wow. Really cool. And he makes it interesting. And you should go check out his YouTube channel too. He's doing some cool videos, kinda like we are hustleandfluidchart tv, but that's all the shout outs. But Travis is gonna dive deep on why you should be thinking about networking a little differently. Don't be shy away if you are not a podcaster though, because this is applicable across the board. But we are using podcast as kind of the medium to talk about this.

Yeah, lots of good info for anybody. Make sure you grab the action guide for this episode. Go to flowchartgroup.com you'll be able to join our Facebook group. You'll also be asked to enter your email. The email is optional, but if you want to get the action guide for this episode, enter that email and we'll hook you up with the action guides that came out within two weeks of the episode going live. So go do that.

Lowchartgroup.com you like that sound effect?

Yeah.

All right, this is going to be a fun one. Strap in, folks, and let's go. Boom. We're rolling. Travis, great to finally have you here and actually chat.

It's been in the works for a while, so I appreciate you guys for having me on.

Yeah, we were just chatting about how we had a conversation on Clubhouse maybe two months ago, and then none of us have been on Clubhouse since.

Yeah, exactly.

Yeah.

It was one of those things where I jumped on for like a week and I was like, this is the next big thing. And then like a week later I was like, this sucks.

To stop this immediately.

So, yeah, it was such a time suck.

But yeah, what was it for you? Like, what was. Was it just the time?

Like the time, man. Like, I don't know how people are doing it. Like, the only way that it makes sense to me is one of. There's like one of two people to me who, who are on Clubhouse. It's the Grant Cardone's of the world who have a business that is working for them in the background and their literal only job is to garner more attention for their brand. And then it's the person who pretends that they have a business, but they don't, obviously, because they just spent 12 hours on freaking Clubhouse yesterday and they're just using it as a as a way to try to get people to pay them, to give them their business secrets when they don't have any real business secrets. So that was like the mixture of the combo of the two different people that I found on Clubhouse. There weren't like a lot of like, like I would say I'm in the, in between those stages, you know, where it's like I, I'm not a start, I'm not, I'm not like a by myself solo founder anymore. But like I'm also not to the point where I can just spend eight hours on a freaking app having random conversations with people about random topics in hopes that my social following blows up. It makes sense, man. So I think I realized it when like, you know, because I was working all day so I wouldn't be on Clubhouse all day, but I was itching to get into a room so I could, you know, start getting some, some more tract. Then I would be done with work at like 5:36 and I would jump into Clubhouse. And that's usually my time with my kids is like between 6 to 7:30 before we put them to bed. And I had noticed that I was in my son's room like playing with him before we put him to bed. And I had my phone on like the changing table next to us on Clubhouse. Like literally living in anxiety because I was in the room as a speaker but I wasn't engaged so I was afraid to be called on. But like I still had to listen to it in case they called on me. But I'm playing with my son, I'm trying to be focusing him. I was like, what am I doing right now? Like, am I really going to teach my son that this Clubhouse room is more important to me than spending time with him? This is complete bs and so if I can't make time for this in my work schedule, then I can't make time for it. And you know, I just had too much work to do so I just fell by the wayside and I stopped doing it altogether like a couple days after that.

Yeah, no, it's. I think we've all shared the same anxieties because I've definitely been there and done that. And I think this is the first. When I was on the clubhous, I think my kid actually and my daughter took her first poop in like a potty and I was like, I'm like, why am I sharing this on Clubhouse?

This is weird.

But yeah, the same feelings. I think a lot of people are like that, man. So it's better to realize that early. That's true for sure.

Well, cool. Let's get into your backstory a little bit, get the audience to know you a little bit more. So right now, you've got guestio, you've got your build, you'd network podcast. You know, we're going to learn a little bit more about your business throughout the course of this conversation. But take us back before what you were doing today. What were you doing before this, and how did you decide to get into what you're doing now?

Sure. So I grew up in a really interesting way. I call it a bubble. That's why I tell everybody I call it a bubble, because I can't quite bring myself to call it a cult, because I don't really believe that it was a cult, but a bubble for sure. So to give you an idea, the church that I went to is kind of a megachurch of sorts within this tiny movement of Christianity called Independent Fundamental Baptist. There's probably about 7 or 8,000 members of that church. Now, when we started going there back in, like, 1995, I was three years old. There's maybe, I don't know, 1500 members or a thousand members, something like that at the time. But what happened is that they had a K through 12 school on the campus of the church. It was all private enrollment. It was not open enrollment. So only members of the church could enroll in the school. And I went there from kindergarten all the way through 12th grade on this one campus, which is the same campus that I went to church on every weekend. So pretty much literally seven days a week from the time I was in kindergarten to the time I was in high school, and then I graduated high school. And the only real job options they give you there, like, we didn't have a career counselor, you know what I mean? So our only real options were ministry or not ministry. Which of those two do you want? And if it's not ministry, then, like, good luck. Meaning that if you say not ministry, they're not going to be like, okay, well what do you want to do? Oh, engineering or architecture. Then you should probably go to this school. Look at this school. Take out this application. These are the grades that you need. These are what your transcripts need to look like. None of that happened. So it was either go to this, go going to ministry, not going to ministry. If you do go to ministry, there happens to be a college on this same campus. Like, imagine that. You know what I mean? So they're just ascending you up their value ladder, right? They're pushing you through their funnel into the next step. So I was one of those kids that decided ministry. So I went on to the college that was on the same campus for four years or graduated in three and a half years, walked it in May of that year and got my degree in double majored in Bible and church ministries. When I graduated I realized I did not want to be in ministry anymore. But at that point I was married and had a unaccredited Bible degree and was trying to get a job. And I don't know if you guys have ever tried to go get a job with an unaccredited Bible degree, but it's not the easiest thing in the world to do. So.

I was kind of back to just like, what do I do? So I just did the only thing I knew how to do at the time. So I just did door to door else because that was what I was doing in college to kind of help just make a little bit extra money. And I was pretty good at it. I don't know what it was. I think it might have just been the competitive spirit or something like that, but got promoted pretty quickly in college. And so when I came out of college I was like, well, hey, this beats the hell out of taking like a 30k a year desk job. You know, with no chance of ascending up in the company or whatever, I'd rather just go knock on door. So 20 hours a week or so, 100% commission, made my own schedule. I worked my way up to being a manager, had a few guys working for me and I knocked doors selling alarms for a little while and basically when I got to the end of that year I was like 22 or 23 at the time. I just pulled six figures in my first ever full time year in the workforce, which I was pretty happy about. That was the big goal that I had. And I realized at the end of the year that I didn't want to do this either. Like not to talk crap on the industry. I have a ton of friends that make a really, really good living doing door to door sales in that space. But I just knew that it wasn't going to be for me. When I looked at 33 year old Travis or 43 year old Travis, I was like, I don't think that version of me wants to be knocking on doors. So if I'm going to not end up there, I should probably change my trajectory now. And that's when I really was just back against the wall. That was a big moment for me where I was Just like, I have no idea what I'm doing. I'm 23, I have a mortgage to pay. I have a wife and have no idea what I'm doing with my life. So I felt like a 15 year old at that point. I remember looking up applications for the FBI. I remember looking up what it took to get into the fire department. I was back to square one. Looking up to see if I should go back to school for something else. I just had no idea what I was doing. So back against the wall, I just decided to go learn as much as I could and get exposed to some different things because I was just like, I just don't even know what's out there. So I started reading some books, listening to some audiobooks, kept selling stuff on the to make a little bit of money. My wife was working at the time again to help us pay the bills. And I, for the first time in my life, came across this thing called podcasting and started listening to some podcasts. I was never a big reader, so it was a better way for me to consume a bunch of content from smart people. So I just started listening, listening, listening. And after a while I was just like, this seems like a pretty fun way to make a living. Not knowing that it was a lot more difficult than it seemed because I was only listening to the top podcasts out there that were making a ton of money.

What were you listening to?

Yeah, what were some of the early ones you were into?

Bigger pockets. I listened to a bunch of bigger pockets because I always had an interest in real estate investing. We always did. We've done, I don't know, 10, 12 deals over the last five, six years. So we're always doing something in real estate. So real estate investing through biggerpockets was one Jordan Harbinger, which at the time was Art of Charm, Entrepreneurs on Fire with John Lee Dumas, Lewis Howes. I listened to a little bit back then, and Tim Ferriss were some of the big ones and then got exposed to Gary Vee through jab, jab, jab, right hook. So I listened to, to some of Gary Vee stuff back then and then through that found Grant Cardone. So those are some of like the early, the early people that I was listening to, in addition to some of the old school guys like Jim Rohn and Zig Ziglar and people like that. So I was just consuming a bunch of those people's content. And it was JLD's podcast that eventually ended up convincing me to start my own. Cause he obviously teaches Podcasting. So he was like, oh, check it. Take out my free, you know, check out my free podcast course. And I was like, all right, cool. So I went through it, and after going through it, I was like, I think I want to do this. Let's. Let's try it out. So started the podcast, and yeah, that was four something years ago. And now we're at over 600 episodes released on the show. We called it build, you'd network. It's all about networking, building relationships. Brought on some really amazing guests, started getting a bunch of people asking us how we did it. So we started teaching podcasting. Just started doing freelance podcast coaching in addition to the door to door stuff I was doing at the time to still pay the bills. So I kind of was doing both things door to door, door to door to door, so that I could pay the bills and make some good money so that I could reinvest into the podcast podcasting business. So I've invested probably like 40, $45,000 into different coaching and masterminds and events and plane tickets and hotels and all that kind of stuff. I took out a credit card, a 0% interest credit card with a $42,000 limit, and I filled that bad boy up. Just a bunch of education, as much as I could learn about this new space. And.

Throughout that time, people started asking me about podcasting, started doing freelance podcast coaching, and then started scaling that, and then ended up about 13 months after I started my podcast, I went full time podcasting. It was the first time in my life that I'd ever taken a pay cut to do something different. But I just knew that it was what I was meant to be doing. I was like, I'm done with door to door. I'm so sick of doing that. I want to be doing this new thing. And then as soon as all of my focus shifted to that, we were able to start scaling it up and scaling it up and then putting on some retreats, doing some more masterminds, selling some more podcast coaching. It turned into a podcast course and community and mastermind and where we teach entrepreneurs how to build podcasts. And then all that, that kind of led to Guestio, because that was kind of the big need in the marketplace that we were looking to fill.

Yeah, Gustio now is this platform online platform what? Software SaaS, I guess, however you want to describe it. But it's like connecting a podcaster with just amazing names. I mean, you have names that you probably haven't heard of, but also Manny, Pac, and Pacwa and Pacquiao. Trouble having his name, but all of these crazy. There's huge name folks on there. I mean, you could probably list a whole bunch more, but I like how that ascension is happening, you know, for your own journey too.

Yeah, so it's kind of like. It's kind of like Cameo, the celebrity booking app, except for that instead of paying somebody to say happy birthday to your mom for 30 seconds or whatever, you can pay somebody to come onto your show. Your content, whether it's a podcast, you know, YouTube channel, blog, whatever it is that you create content on. If you want to interview an expert, guestio is where you should go to book that expert.

Yeah, that's right, man. Ever since we met you or, you know, heard of you from the ether, I guess, in the podcast fest land. And we got to give Chris Kremitz credit for basically, I think, connecting us. Ish.

He's related there somewhere.

Yeah, he always is. But it's just really cool. I mean, immediately there was something different when looking at you and the way that you approach podcasting and the types of guests you bring on and just the ways that you dive into your interviews as well. Like, you just had Matt Barnes on, you know, NBA player. I think he's retired now, but either way, I'm not just like, man, this is next level. You have the video out. You know, I think it's a couple cameras set up. You know, you have this. It's just next level stuff, man.

So appreciate that, bro.

Thanks, man.

It means a lot coming from is experienced and well known podcasters as you guys. So I really appreciate that.

Yeah, let's talk about the networking side. I know you've said talked about a million times. You have a whole show around it, but yeah, like, I think a lot of people struggle with, you know, when it comes to podcasting because we train people as well. That's a common question. One of the biggest things is how do I get connected to that person or this person or, you know, they see the roster that we've had on, they look at people like yourself, and then a lot of folks just kind of shut down, you know, and they're just like, I don't know. But so what would you say to those folks first? And then maybe we can dig into some details on how to scale up.

Yeah, I think when I first got started, the big realization that I had, like when you first start and you've never talked to anybody like that, your initial reaction to thinking about possibly interviewing them is it's impossible. You know, you just write it off immediately. It's just. It's impossible. It's impossible. It's impossible. And the more you tell yourself it's impossible, the more you begin to believe that it's impossible, which then, you know, prevents you from doing any work in that direction. So I kind of just had this realization early on that, like, you know, what if somebody has a pulse, it's possible to connect with them. I just have to figure out how to do that. Like, there is some way to get ahold of them. There's somebody that they know that maybe I know, someone that knows someone that knows someone that knows that person that they know that you know, like, there's. God, there's debt. There's always an angle depending on the person or how well known they are or how much their time is in abundance or scarcity.

That.

That can be a really, really difficult process or an easier process. It completely depends on the person. But it is possible. And so when. When you start to frame things from a. That's impossible to. It's possible. I should have to figure out how. The question then becomes like. Like, if it were possible, this is the way I phrase it to people. Someone will say to me, that's impossible. And I'll say, okay, it's impossible, I get it. But if it were possible, Just play along with me here. If it were possible, what would it take? Just think, just humor me for a second. I know it's impossible. I get it. Okay, but if it were possible, what would it take to make it happen? But that's the question that kind of gets your juices flowing and starts making you think, like, you know, if I had enough money, I could probably get them booked. Okay, great. So you think pay to play. You think if you pay them, they would come on your show. Okay, cool. Who do you have to get in? Who do you have to get in contact with in order to be able to pay them? Probably like a publicist or an agent or something like that. Okay, great. Why don't you go Google this person, publicist, agency and see if you can get ahold of somebody at their agency and see if it's even something that they entertain. You know, if it's way too much money, then, hey, at least you know how much money you gotta get to be able to go book that person. Or now that you have a contact, maybe you can work a different ang with that contact. Maybe they're looking for somebody that you know that you have a connection to that you could facilitate an introduction, build up some value and Some equity with that person and then reach back out and get a discount on that booking. Maybe you can have them donate to a charity instead of paying that person directly. And they'll take less money if you donate it to a chair. Like, there's so many other things that can happen once you start embracing the fact that it's possible. I just got to figure out how to. How to make it happen.

Yeah, that's money. I think just the possibility, because even my brain was going. I'm like, I know a lot of this stuff already, but it's like, yeah, it just forces your brain to kind of come up with solutions. Solutions.

Yeah, solution oriented. Instead of focusing on. On the problem and making yourself only think about the problem. And then. And then you start telling yourself these stories in your head about like, well, it's possible for. For Matt and Joe, you know, it's possible for Travis, but it's not possible for me. But that's why. That's why I'm so. That's why I'm so big on networking, man. Because. So when I left that world that I grew up in, I always say that as a part of my story because I think it provides a lot of context into why I ended up pushing so much down the networking path. It was because when I left that world, that bubble, that culture that up in, I was starting from scratch. Like, my entire life was there. My sports were there. My high school moments, my competitions, my friends, my authority figures, my youth pastors were the same as my school teachers. Like, everything was there. So when I left, I didn't know anybody. Like, there wasn't anybody outside of that circle that I had relationships with. I never even met a millionaire, let alone, like had a relationship with a millionaire that I could ask questions to, you know, so that, that. That message of building your network became super important to me because I knew that I needed to do it, but I didn't. Had no idea how to do it. And I didn't have any start. Like, I didn't have a, you know, a friend's dad who was worth $300 million with a bunch of connections that I could go help him out at the golf club on the weekends and get. You know what I mean? Like, there was just nothing. I had to do it everything from scratch. And that's why I say that, because I want people to understand that are listening. Like, I didn't have any of those things to start off with. With, you know what I mean? It was just that I had a plan and I worked the plan and then when every time, whenever I came across an obstacle, I made an adjustment to that plan. And that's been the MO for the last few years. But it's worked out really well.

I'm curious what your approach is with like the bigger name guests and basically what I'm asking here is when we have bigger name guests on the show, oftentimes those aren't the shows that get the most traction, that get the most shares. So you can get big name guests and a lot of times all it takes is pay to play or donate to their charity. Is something that we've dealt with in the past, things like that. But what we found is those episodes are kind of hard to like sort of ROI justify the cost into getting that person on just because they're the ones that aren't going to go and share on Twitter and Facebook that they were just on the Hustle and Flowchart podcast or you know, the build your network podcast. Like those are the ones that aren't really going to go out and talk about it. So what, what's the sort of approach or philosophy behind getting the bigger name get guests?

Yeah, sure. So, so number one, you can al. You can always pay them to market it as well if you, if you want to take that approach. That's something that we actually do in the back end of guestio. If you pay a guest to come on, you can like certain guests will have like almost a menu of options to pick from like Instagram, swipe ups to email list, shout outs to different things to like market your interview that they were on with you. But anyway, that's, that's really obvious, obvious direct solution. My question is always around how much credibility do want? If you look at the endorsement industry, it's an entire industry that exists based on one psychological principle and that's the law of association. Because this brand that you've never heard of before understands that Kevin Hart is in your home three nights a week because you're watching his standup or a movie that he was on or your kids are watching pets. So you know like and trust Kevin Hart even. Well, let's say even if you don't even like Kevin Hart, you still trust Kevin Hart because you're familiar with him and you know that he's not going to back something unless it's at least some level of credibility and delivers on their core promise of their product or their service. So these companies spend millions and millions and millions of dollars. It's a multi billion dollar industry. The endorsement industry. Every Single year on getting people to endorse their product. All they're doing is buying trust with their ideal client, their ideal customer. That's all endorsement is. They're buying trust. So they don't have to take the next decade to build trust with their ideal customer. They can buy trust with somebody who's already earned that trust. And that's the same exact thing that comes from booking these really high level, credible people onto your podcast, is that if nobody knows, you know, like when I first started, when you guys first started, nobody knew who you were, nobody knew who I was. And still to this day, you know, we have like fairly big shows, but we're no Joe Rogan or Tim Ferriss or somebody like that. You know what I mean? So when, when people, when people are introduced to my brand and they have no idea who Travis Chappell is, but they scroll through my Instagram feed and they go, oh, there's Matt Barnes, oh, there's Mark Manson. Oh, there's Nicole Appara. Oh, there, you know, I mean, there's an entire group of people that man, I follow like, like 12 of these people that he just had, Chris Voss or whoever else, you know what I mean? Like, that they're assigning the trust that they have with all of those individuals to me in some sort of a way. It may not be an equal level, but it'll increase the trust that they have with me in a matter of seconds without me having to spend any time with that person. So to me, that's really the big leverage point and the big ROI is how much credibility and authority do you want in your space? Because the more of those types of names that you can bring onto your show, the more credibility and authority that you have going forward. And what I found is the highest level of person that you've brought on your show will dictate what level of person decides to share the episode that they were interviewed on.

I could see that. Yeah.

So if like the highest level person that you've had on is somebody who's just like a well known podcaster but isn't known outside of that circle, like the mid tier podcasters want to associate up with that next level person so they'll share that with other people. Right. But somebody that's at that same level as the highest level, they don't really care about it because they understand that they're bringing the asset to the table in the situation, not the show. Right. And that's something that drives me crazy with podcasters. There's probably some people Listening that are getting turned off to me right now because, because of this one thing. But podcasters sometimes get this idea that their show is the shit. My show is awesome, you know what I mean? And like, I'm like, I'm doing them a favor by bringing them on my show. And it's like the fact is though, you're not like, you understand that like you, like, I understand you want to think good things about your show and you want to put in good quality work. And like, I get that, that. But you still have to have a base level of self awareness around which party is bringing the asset to the table. And if it's not you, then you have to give that person a reason to want to share the asset that you were on. So now that I can bring on Matt Barnes and some of these more well known people that a lot of people know, now I'm finding that the people directly under that tier or level of people, they're way more willing to share the content that we were on. And they're still really well known people in the business world, but they're not as well known as some of these other people that I've had on. So my point is in saying that the higher level people that you bring on, the more that people who are not on that level yet are willing to share content, which then helps with sharing of the show. But if you're thinking that I'm gonna get this one person on and my show's gonna blow up because I got this one person on, I've never had that happen. So it's all incremental, consistent growth over a long period of time. But that credibility and that authority and that brand recognition is really the reason that I think it' necessary. A necessary part of the process.

Yeah, yeah. And just also the fact that it gets easier and easier to bring on guests when you have bigger guests. So you, you go look at some of the names they've had on and you're like, oh, I want to. So some of the, there's like a snowball effect that happens with getting bigger and bigger guests. When you have bigger and bigger guests, it's sort of, you know, a chicken or the egg kind of thing. But when you get some of those bigger guests, it gets easier to have more bigger guests.

Oh yeah, yeah. It's like I tell people, it's like, it's like pushing a snowball uphill when you're first getting started. Like, it's really difficult. You're starting out with something really small and you're trying to get it to get bigger as you're pushing it uphill, but at some point you get to the other side of the hill and that snowball starts to roll and build on itself. And then that's when you have people that are reaching out to you that you, you know, before would have been like, wow, I can't believe they said yes. And now their teams are approaching you to say, hey, would you bring this person on your. You know, like some of my biggest interviews at this point. Tillman Fertitta, the Houston Rockets owner, you know, multibillionaire, and John Maxwell, one of the best selling, like, probably the best selling of all time. Like, both of those interviews were their teams approaching me, not even me reaching out to them anymore, you know, so that's like the snowball. Finally you push it over the other end of the hill at the beginning. It's a ton of work, and that's why most people don't make it, because they, they, they quit before then. This is a lot of hard work to push that, to push that ball uphill.

Yeah, absolutely.

But, yeah, it eventually will. Will get a little bit easier.

It becomes a game. And that's what, you know, after a while, at least it has for us. It's just kind of of fun to push ourselves, you know, and almost to see how far we could push this thing.

Yeah, this is a very bad Dexter reference, but all of our guests on our show, we call our trophy case.

You are now in our trophy case.

We're adding Travis to our trophy case today.

Nice slide there. It's horrible. He said that, Matt. Jesus. That's not supposed to be.

Hey, no, you mentioned it's all game, right? That's how we pitch.

But I mean, this whole thing, business, podcasting, it's just fun. I feel like there's a turning point for us to actually see this as a good time. It's like, okay, we want to not just uplevel the guests, but we want to see what you are thinking about this topic or any other big name. Everyone has these mental frameworks and things they're living by, and this is our opportunity to really get in there and kind of dig around their minds a little bit, and then who knows what's going to come after?

Yeah, it's epic learning. Learning. It's epic learning. Like, it's the best accountability partner when it comes to increasing your knowledge base and learning new things. You know, you're always talking to people, gaining new insights, gaining new information. That's the only reason I'm in software. It's because I had a podcast, and I've interviewed hundreds of successful entrepreneurs, and I got glimpses into dozens of different industries, dozens of different business models, how to be successful here, how to be successful there. And the one that appealed and was the most intriguing to me was the software industry. So I was on the lookout for some sort of software idea. I probably incubated one or two other ideas in my head for multiple months before I thought about this one and thought this one would bring me the most traction. Cause it was an industry that I already knew and understood. So which is why I ended up pursuing this one. But there are other software ideas that I had before because I was just like, I think I want to end up in this industry somehow. Because it seems the most interesting to me. I wouldn't have known that or had that insight or been able to confirm it through direct experience and relationships if it were not for having conversations with people on the podcast.

Absolutely. I would say 100% of our business has been pretty much steered by guests on our podcast. Like where we are now with the way we promote affiliate products, the courses we sell, the way we actually do our podcast has all been kind of steered by guests on the podcast that we had the opportunity to pick their brain on. What should we do next? A lot of the questions we're asking, we're asking for the audience, but there are some selfish ones sort of squeezed in there from time to time.

Yeah, of course. Of course. Yeah. And that's the thing, too, about knowing your audience really well.

Well.

And kind of being a member of your audience. That's how it was for me. Like, I wanted to learn how to network better. So I started a show about networking so I could ask people about how to network better. And I figured if I'm curious about this, there's probably somebody in my audience that's also curious about this because I'm kind of creating this content. For me, I'm just like, bring other people along for the ride, you know, the best way I can explain is like, being the captain of a ship, you know, Like, I'm not at the destination yet, because there's different types of podcasters. Some people are at the destination. Right. They're authority expert podcasters, and they're going to teach you this thing that they learned. I was never that person. I was more like a journalist. I'm the captain of the ship. It's like, look, the destination's over there. We're all going to learn about networking together. I'm Just the one that's steering the ship to help us get in the right direction. But we're all on this journey together. You know what I mean? That's kind of one of the cool things about podcasting.

I think that's. That's exactly. I mean, it's very similar to how we see it, too. You know, we. We're. We want to be the dumb guys in the room almost, but we're just. We're just going to. Yeah, we're going to navigate this bad boy. I don't know where it's going to go, but we're going to have a good time, and there's going to be a cool new relationship with this person and hopefully a lot more folks listening as well.

Yeah. Well, speaking of navigating the conversation, I'm curious. This is something that I know I get a little insecure about at times. Joe and I have had conversations, so I think he does as well. But when it comes to guests that kind of do the circuit, how many guests do podcasts have where you're like, okay, I just saw Tony Robbins on 19 shows all within the same week, and you go and listen to two of them, and you've essentially heard all of them.

Right.

How do you navigate the conversations to make sure that you're getting content out of people that isn't available elsewhere?

Yeah, I love this question because it was, like, the thing that I didn't expect to have to learn when I started my podcast was how to interview. I was just like, how hard can it be? You just interview somebody. That's not difficult. And then I jumped on my first two dozen interviews, and I was like, I suck at this.

Learn how to get better, for sure. So the good news is that most people suck. That's honestly the good news, because it gives you room to be able to just, hey, if I focus on this, I can make a difference in the minds of the people that I'm interviewing, and I can stand out from all the other crappy interviewers that are out there. And so my biggest thing that I do, and I learned this from Jordan Harbinger, who's a big mentor of mine in the space and one of the best interviewers, I think that's in podcasting. And. And he said that he prepares between six and 10 hours for every single interview that he does, which was mind blowing to me at the time because I was not spending anywhere near that amount of time on my interviews, and it challenged me to start doing that. And so especially with the people who are on the interview circuit. They get interviewed all the time. I always try to do enough research so that I like my goal. So you kind of alluded to it a second ago when you said that you listened to two of them. You've listened to all of them, essentially.

So when I go back, I'll listen to four or five of them. And they're all very similar, very close to the same, because every single one of those interviews is starting with them at the same point. That's why they never make it past that point because they're all 30 minutes to an hour and they all start at the same position in the story. And usually they're promoting something so they're asking questions that their publicist sent over that are like pre framed questions. Exactly. For the thing that they're promoting to make sure they talk about. About it. I don't even look at those questions. I listen to their interviews. I read between the lines, listen for gaps that those other people missed. And then when I'm starting those interviews, I'm able to ask questions that are starting off where that other person left off. So instead of saying like, hey, take a second and catch us up on your whole life. You know what I mean? Instead of saying that, I can say something like, now.

I know that you and your family immigrated here when you were 7 years old from Iran, and one of of the big things that you guys struggled with was putting food on the table. Tell me, tell me about that story, how you guys adapted to having to literally dive in dumpsters when you're growing up. Like, it's basically the same question, but it's a completely different question. And it resonates so much more with the guest because they're like, okay, this person's actually done there. It's flattering. It makes them feel good about themselves. Like, this person actually knows my story. They've done their research and this is going to be a better conversation. If you can start off with questions like that, then the rest of the conversation usually ends up being a little bit better because they're confirmation bias turns on and looks for the good questions that you're asking instead of the negativity bias of looking for the holes in your conversation. So I always try to start off like that. I do a ton of research and preparation beforehand and I look for those gaps to shoot.

Yeah. So when you're doing your research, because this is something. Yeah. Every podcaster seems like they have their own approach and even Matt and I have our own approach.

Separate, different approaches, totally different.

Yeah. So it sounds like you're listening to, to a lot. You know, you said you're not really, you're more of an audio, audio listener and learner. What are, what are some of the other things? Like are you taking notes along the way? Do you have, what's this? Lay it all out for us, I guess here.

Yeah. So in terms of listening, I'll listen to three or four interviews and then like I said, I'll search for those gaps. So when I hear something like that and I have a question that the host didn't press in on that, I really want to know. I'll write the question down. So I end up with a long list of questions that I usually narrow down significantly to only a few, few questions that I want to make sure that I hit and then I make sure that during my conversation with them, I'm not sticking to the questions like a script. It's more like the way that I describe it. It's kind of like a flowing river. So you have some guidelines and you have a destination that you're headed toward, but the way that you get there might be over here and then over here and then you're cutting left and you're moving right and you're trying to avoid this rock because you're rafting, you know, down this river and you're, and you, and you know that coming up there's a rapid. So we should, you know, stop here and move over to the side, you know what I'm saying? Like it's a free flowing conversation but we're headed in the right direction, you know what I'm saying? So I try to make sure that we, I use those questions as guidelines, but I do a lot of listening to past interviews that they've done. If they have YouTube interviews, I'll watch a couple YouTube clips of theirs and then, and then look at their personal website. Look at, if they have like a Wikipedia, I'll go look at Wikipedia. Cause I always find the differences between their about page on their website and what Wikipedia has to say about them. Like I'll try to, you know, look for the differences in those because obviously one of them is fact and one of them was written by their team to make them look awesome.

That's right.

So I like to see like what those differences are. If they have a book, I'll try to read the book. I have to admit that I'm not very good at reading the full book book before I bring them on the show. And that might change with just the volume of Interviews. Because we're releasing like four interviews a week right now. So it's just impossible to read everybody's book before I bring them on. But a lot of times I'll look at like the forward of the book or I'll look at the dedication of the book or, you know, like I said, read between the lines. Don't just go directly into the things that everybody else is reading. Like, look for, you know, he dedicated this book to his family, but I noticed that his mom isn't listed on that. And then you can see like, oh, in Wikipedia. He lost his mom, Tom, when he was, you know, when he was three years old. Okay, that's, that's, that's something interesting. We can kind of earn that, you know, mark that and come back to it in the conversation. It's just always looking for those unique approaches because people that get interviewed a lot, they just want to have good conversations with people. They don't want to get asked the same questions over and over again. If you, if you notice, even too, if you look up this YouTube video of Joaquin Phoenix. Now, I think he kind of was a dick about it, to be honest, but he, he was on this tour for the joke poker and just got, he just went off on this one reporter that asked him a question about like, where did the, where did you get inspired to do this character? Blah, blah, blah. And he was literally just like, he was like, I feel like, I feel like I've been asked that question a lot. Like, I've been doing this for seven months. Like, you guys know, you guys have seen the movie. Like, he was literally just so perturbed that this guy would have just come to him with this question. And that was clearly probably the most repeated question that he gotten on this seven month tour of promoting the Joker. He was just like, why am I, why am I here? Can we be done? Like, he literally was just like, I'm done. And walked away basically after a couple of bad questions from reporters. And it was just such like, if you're a reporter, it's your job. That's literally your only job is to get content from the person that you're interviewing. So that's kind of on you, man. You should have realized that he'd been doing this for seven months and maybe gone and looked at some of the other press conferences that he did and be like, okay, he got to ask that question. There's the answer to that question. I can write about that here. What's something that nobody else has asked? You know what I Mean. And so usually if you end up asking all the same questions, it just tells that person that you didn't do a good enough job researching and it leaves a bad taste in their mouth for you as a professional interviewer, if that's the impression that you want to leave.

Yeah, I'm kind of curious with, you know, with all the networking and the big and, you know, not so known names, what do you, what does it look like after these interviews? Like, is there a follow up process? Are you doing more things with them and some kind of ventures? What does that look like for most folks?

Yeah, it's interesting you asked that because probably about a year ago I started to realize that I didn't really have one. I didn't have a follow up process. And I was like, man, I've talked to a bunch of great people, but a lot of times that's the only time I've ever talked to them. And so I just wanted to change that. So what we started doing this year, we did our first one a month or two ago. We're doing guest dinner dinners and inviting people out to Vegas or our next one's going to be in Nashville and basically inviting out a ton of our past guests and putting on a dinner where basically all expenses are on me. And we put on a dinner, bring them all into a room. Like 20 to 30 people who I've interviewed on my show, they're all really good, high quality people. And putting them in a room and letting them get to know each other just as my way to continue to add value and pop my head back into their lives and be like, hey, hey, I'm here, you know, if you need anything, for sure. Or, you know, just trying to keep myself top of mind in a lot of their minds. And it ends up, it ended up being a really valuable time for a lot of those people because when you've interviewed a bunch of really good people, it's, it's easier to, you know, get ahold of them, put them into a room, get one or two people that are kind of like the crowd drawers and then. And then get the rest of the people to show up to it. And it ended up being a really great time. Everybody had a fun time. And so we're going to start putting those on quarterly now as a way to continue to stay in touch with all the amazing people that we brought onto the show.

That's sweet. I like that a lot. That's. Yeah. Because it's just like anything else. They want to get connected with more folks as well, that are high caliber from someone they trust as well. So you being the person, and this is where, you know, because we do a lot of affiliate marketing as well, promoting of other people's brands. And I think a lot of people are scared to sometimes bring people together or promote someone else because the focus isn't on me now. But it's like if you're actually bringing everyone together, you are the one. One that's being remembered the most out of that whole crew. It's like you're the catalyst to that whole. You're the glue to that. That whole group of 20 to 30 people. Like, it's so much damn value there.

Yeah, yeah, you're. You're the common denominator, you know, so I, I tell people this all the time. This is the same reason I tell all of our podcasting clients to start Facebook groups. Because if you can be the common denominator between a group of people, they're way more likely to remember you as a valuable person. Meaning that, that when two people meet who haven't met before, we as humans always search for the commonality. What do we have in common? Right. That's why you have these groups of people that get along with each other really well. Because we're community based people. That's how it's hardwired into our brain from biology, that we connect with people who are similar to us. When you meet somebody who has the same first name as you, it's like a immediate bond is there for some reason. It's like you don't have. Have no idea who this person is, but they have your same name. You're like, oh, yeah, same name.

It's like this thing that you share because you have something in common. So we always are searching for commonality. When you put people into a room together, they've never met each other. And you're the commonality that goes such a long way, especially if they're high quality people. You become the topic of conversation. A lot of those conversations where it's like, oh, yeah, how do you know Travis? How'd you find out about the dinner? Oh, do you. Were you a guest on Build your Network? Oh, okay, Interesting. You know, what did you guys talk about? What do you do? You know what I mean? It like brings into this conversation, but the commonality piece that brought those people together is you. And a lot of times what happens is deals end up being made, businesses end up getting started. There's so much good that comes out of it. And if you can be that Value facilitator. Then there's a lot of good things that I can never. Because that dinner cost me money. I didn't make money on it. But when I try to explain it to people, I'm just like, look, I don't know how to explain it. All I know is that I know it's going to come back that good on me at some point in the future. Like something good is going to come out of it. I don't know what it's going to look like. I don't know if it's going to be a deal, an investment, actual capital or money or revenue. I don't know what's going to happen from it. But all I know is when you put a bunch of really good people together in a room and make it a pure ad value play, good stuff comes out of it always. So I'm going to make sure it's a priority on my, on my piano.

Super smart. Yeah, it's 70 year mark and I think that's smart for anyone to do. I mean, you don't need to be going for the A players or the celebrity type types. Just go with the people in your.

Instagram to put on a dinner in person. You do like, do a virtual happy hour, you know, people back on and be like, hey, we're all getting together and you know, we're sipping. You can even send them a bottle of wine. Like, like, like, you know, get your entire guest list, send out 25 invites and then everybody that says yes, send them a bottle of wine and say we're all going to get on and have a glass of this wine together and talk for a few minutes. So we're going to do some breakout rooms in our Zoom sessions, you know what I mean? Like that's just, you know, that's a totally good solution to that as well. But it just doesn't cost as much, as much money. It's probably easier to get yeses for because they don't have to travel across the country, but, but it's still extremely valuable and something that I think would go a long way with people.

Yeah, I mean we put on an annual event at a brewery here in San Diego where we pool a bunch of people together and our out of pocket costs are almost nothing. I mean we buy a bunch of people drinks once they're there, we let leverage certain scenarios.

We're doing deals with the brewery and all that. There's some more happening.

Yeah, yeah, there's a little bit going on behind the scenes, but it's so true. Every single year around the time we do it, I mean, 2020 was kind of effed, but every single year that we do it, people are like, are you still doing the event? We literally got a text yesterday saying, hey, is your overtime event happening this year? And we're like, yep, it absolutely is.

So how does it look like. Because I want to talk a little bit about guests as well.

A couple things, because I wanted to note that referrals go crazy when you start to establish these connections and these parties and all that. It's almost like you can't stop the referrals of more amazing people coming your way or our way. Saw a couple today. This morning, I'm like, oh, my God, cool. And got a call to even guest in a spot from someone we see as a big mentor of us. Couldn't make it today because we're doing our podcast. I'm like, man, just opportunities kind of just come up, you know, with that trust.

I don't know. Does this. I kind of want to, like, lead this into guestio, because I just wanted to paint that as a big thing. But how did guestio come into play? Like, was that part of some of these connections you have, like, advisors and whatnot?

100%, man. When I first had the idea, the first thing I did was called a bunch of people who had been on my show who are like, trusted advisors of mine now, just to run the idea by them to see if they thought it was a decent idea. And when I got a few yeses, it was like, all right, I have enough now to take the risk to at least go out and build an MVP and. And see what we can do from there, you know, and then when we decide. When we were looking, when I was. When I was really looking at, like, okay, do I want to bootstrap this, or I don't want to try to raise capital? Same thing. I called up a few people that had been on my show, people that had raised capital, exited companies, been in the venture world for a while, or investment banking for a while. I called. I had no idea what I was doing, but after a few phone calls and then a bunch of time on Google afterwards, you know, like, we ended up doing. So far, we've raised a little bit over a million dollars in our seed round for guestio, and that's all been through these. These connections on the podcast and stuff like that, because I frankly just had no idea what I was doing.

Well, I was going to say, like, this is a guy that did know software before it was an idea. And I know software is a very difficult business. Yeah.

And I'm not a. I'm not a developer. I don't, I don't know how to code. Like, I don't even, like, I have no, I have no idea how to do any of that kind of stuff. You know what I mean? It's just that I had an idea that was basically my entire value is I had an idea. So when you, when you have a bunch of connections and people who know how to do things, it makes it easier for you to figure out how to go do things, because you have people that you trust that have been there, done that, and bought the T shirt a hundred times over and can help you navigate the process. So that's what we ended up doing with Gustio. And when I ahead and did the soft launch, all I did was reach out to all of the past guests that were on my show and say, hey, you're obviously interested in podcasting. You know, can we put you into our marketplace? And we started really slowly onboarding some people. We launched with like a hundred people onto the platform or something like that. And it's still kind of like on our pre launch soft launch. We haven't like an official launch. We haven't marketed the platform really much at all, except for just organic stuff. But yeah, all that's coming right around the corner. We have the mobile application that's coming out soon. We have our pro subscription that just launched recently for pro users. So a lot of good things coming right around the pike for that.

Yeah, it seems like there's a lot of viral potential for that too, because the idea is you create your profile on Gestio and when somebody asks you to be on their show, you just drive them to their profile, which gets exposure for Gestio, but also for that profile. I think there's that potential that if more podcasters start using Gestio as the sort of one sheet that you send them to, could get real big, real quick.

Yeah, that's kind of the idea is we have like a free profile media kit built into the software. So a bunch of people just don't know how to do that or they're crappy designers and they know what information is supposed to go on there, but they can't figure out Canva for some reason and they don't want to hire a podcast booking agency or a PR company to do it for them. So you can go to Guestio and create a free profile media kit. You can just send your link out to a bunch of shows that you're pitching to be a guest on and they can go check out all the things that you've done. Then your, your social links there, your past podcast appearances, YouTube videos that you want to feature, publication articles that have been written about you, media bio, your photos, your headshots, all the information that a show needs in order to be able to interview you and promote your episode is all found inside of your guestio profile, which makes it a lot easier to share. And you can update it a little bit more effectively than like a PDF version of it as well.

Yeah, and you can, you can actually like put a value on your time too. You could say, if you want me on my, on the podcast, it cost $500. And what I love about that is even if somebody wants you on the podcast and you're like, I'll do your podcast podcast for free, you could still send them to that page. And that sort of anchors in a real world value of your time.

This is what my time is worth. Yeah, yeah. And, and a lot of people use it as just a buffer. You know, a lot of, a lot of guys that are, a lot of guys and girls that are on the platform right now, like, they just, it's not that they want to charge for their time, it's just that, look, I get dozens of these requests every single week and there's no possible way I can say yes to all of them. I feel like I had one guy tell me he was like, I honestly, amount of, I feel so bad turning down on these people because I really want to go on their shows, but it would just literally be impossible. It would be my full time job. It would be impossible to do anything else if I said yes to all of them. And so he literally built a guestio profile to send people to that because if they want to pay the three or four or five hundred bucks or whatever he charges, I forget what it was to interview him, then he'll do it. And I think he actually donates it to charity too. So he doesn't even take the money. It's not, he does like, he makes a ton of money outside of it. He's not there for the 500 bucks that you're going to pay him to get interviewed. He just uses it as a way to be like, look, if you're going to pay 500 bucks, you're probably a good quality, high quality person that's worth connecting with. So I'll go ahead and do it for you. If you're willing to Pay that. So, yeah, we've had a bunch of people use it just as like a buffer between them and the hundreds of people that reach out to them to book them, you know, filters out those.

Fly by nights too. It's kind of like, are you actually investing in your podcast? Because how many podcasts do you see that get 11 episodes in and then you never see another episode from them? Right? Like, I don't want to be interviewed on those shows, you know, like, I want to be ones that are taking it seriously.

Exactly. It's not even. That's the whole thing, bro. It's not even about the downloads for me. It's just like. So that's kind of the big question that unlocked my ability to get really high level people on my show. The thing that I figured out was that they don't really care about downloads. All they care about is are you going to waste my time? That's all they care about. And so all you have to do in order for them to not feel like they waste their time is be a good professional host. But a lot of people don't know how to do that. And the, that dollar amount, that price point just weeds out all of the people who are just like, oh, well, I've recorded 11 episodes, but I haven't launched yet. I'm just waiting for this big thing to happen so I can launch. And then all of a sudden, they never launch. Like, I've probably been on, I don't know, 200 podcasts at this point. Probably like 25 of them never saw the light of day, you know what I mean? Where it's just a complete and utter waste of my time. And at the beginning, that's totally fine because at the beginning I was just trying to get as much exposure I possibly could. So I said yes to everybody. You know, I said yes to every opportunity that came my way. But at some point along the journey, you have to learn how to start saying no and how to start picking opportunities based on what's going to make the best leverage point of your time. And, and yeah, you can't, can't say yes to everybody. I wish you could, but some people just suck, man. I was literally on Interview the other day where I was just like, what did. Do you even know why we're talking? Right?

I was just blown away by how poorly he managed the interview process and was just like, this was a total waste of my time. Completely not prepared. Didn't even think that we were doing the interview that day, but scheduled an hour in my Calendar. I was just like, oh, my gosh, man, let's just get through this.

It's almost, like, too easy for some people to just take time. And on that note, we should wrap this puppy up because we're almost to the hour now. But, dude, Travis, I mean, you're doing a lot. I mean, check out build your network. You know, everyone listening here because there are so many nuggets, but you're also breaking. You have so many of these celebrity types on there, these names that seem untouchable. They're not. But guestio is fricking awesome, man. So at least get a free account on there to establish your credibility on there. You know, it helps put a dollar amount if you can.

I've set up a free account. I haven't decked it out yet, but I've set one up.

Them on it later today. Yeah, yeah.

And.

And.

And to be clear, too, there's a ton of free people in there. You can set up an account for free, and you can book people for free. You don't have to pay for the, like. It's like the App Store. There's a free marketplace, and there's a paid marketplace, so you can search people based on, like, how much you're willing to pay for. For those appearances.

Freaking brilliant, dude. I'm pissed that I didn't think of this first time, and it looks damn good too, so props to you, brother. Appreciate it. Yeah, no, this is a good time. Yeah. So I'm sure we'll do this again. We'll finally meet up maybe at the next pod fest or something. Whenever that is. Later this year, I think, right?

Yeah, yeah, I'd say it's happening sometime.

We're doing it, my man. All right. See you, brother. Thank you.

Appreciate it, guys. Chat soon.

That was fun.

Yes, it was a blast.

I'm always racing to get the first word in.

I know you want to be seen or heard.

Actually, this part of the podcast, nobody could see.

Oh, and that's true. We are hidden.

This is the part where we're pantsless.

Ooh. Well, good thing I'm not in the room with you right now.

High five.

No high five. Put your pants back on. It's getting weird. You're about 18 inches from me, not far enough away.

All right, well, I don't think Mr. Chappell was thinking that we would be starting out with pantsless jokes right after we finished an interview with him, but that's what we do. Yeah. Sorry, Travis.

People need to lower their expectations.

Oh, man, this is good. Stuff we were both saying, yeah. After this interview wrapped up with Travis, He's a guy that we could have gone further and much further down the rabbit hole with.

We had at least another hour of a podcast we could have recorded with him. Like, just looking at my notes here, we talked to about 30% of it and of what we initially thought we would get into. But I think, like, what came out of this episode was way better than I anticipated. Right. Like, the talking about how to. How to get the big guests on your show, how to actually interact with them, how to, you know, encourage them to share the show afterwards, how to build relationships and follow up and create networking events with past guests. Like, I thought this was a freaking gold mine.

It was. You talked about your Dexter slides.

Trophy case. That's right.

Hey, I got the trophy case concept from Dustin at Wealth Fit, so blame him for putting that in my mind.

I don't know if you wanted to make that public.

Well, it's public. It's public. Although I think he actually asked. We talked about it on recording. Did we?

Okay. But yeah. I mean, this. I think my bigger. One of the biggest takeaways here is the philosophy that Travis has behind connecting with folks. I think that's. It just opens up the floodgates, really, if you think about it in so many ways. But there's a lot of things you just can't trust. Track the direct benefit or you can't plan for it perfectly. You might not get a share or the shout out that you thought you might with a big name person or any guest you bring on or anyone you collaborate with, period. It doesn't even have to be podcasting. We're just talking about networking. But think about all the intangible benefits or even tangible benefits that happen later. I like the idea of his dinners. I thought that was freaking brilliant. Because bringing people together and being the ringmaster almost, you know, the connector of the other connected people.

Like, well, it does sort of relate to what we do at overtime, I don't think. See, he's doing it, like, methodically. We didn't. When we started overtime, we realized the benefits, right? Like, it's not like I had this aha moment of like, oh, my gosh, we're the ones who bring people together. But when we originally started overtime, that wasn't our intention. We were just like, hey, we're working out of a brewery. Let's get a whole bunch of our friends in the marketing world to come hang out at this brewery to drink.

The beer that we brewed.

And to drink the beer that we brewed. Yeah. So, like, that was the original intention, but after we did, like, two or three of them, people started asking, when's the next one? What are you gonna do? The next one.

That's cool.

The funny thing is there's five or six people that go into the event. It's me and you and Dan ryan and Eric DeRose and Jenny DeRose and Mike Gibba. Like, there's a big group of us, a crew that all put on overtime. And I hate to say this, but everybody equates it to our event. Everybody goes, are you going to Matt and Joe's event?

I think that's a factor of just us doing a lot of promotion around it, you know, and let's be honest, I think a lot of the folks in our crew want to be around the beer, you know, in the beer process, which they are the masters of anyway.

Yeah.

And then you have Dan Ryan. Oh, I just did my quota. All right.

Yeah. But he's the one that toes the line between, like, I love beer and I love marketing.

But he doesn't want to be seen in the marketing.

No.

Is the key. Still haven't had him on the podcast.

Actually, that's not true. He's been on a couple, but he's been.

He guessed it. Or he.

He guest interviewed, guest hosted.

He lurked. He lurked.

He said one or two words on a couple episodes.

Forgot about that. We gotta do a lurking session with him again. It's very unique. But, yeah, I mean, just the way that Travis looks at connecting with anyone, I think is. It's super impressive. The fact that he grew up in kind of a bubble. A bubble environment where he knew no one outside of that space. And especially in business, like, he created his reality. And the fact that you, like, if you go through his guest list on his build, you'd network podcast, you'd be like, oh, damn.

Yeah.

Oh, damn. Wow.

I'll tell you, this episode really, really inspired me to want to go a lot deeper on the research because there was times where he was talking about his research process and Jordan Harbin, and we talked to Jordan, so we kind of had that insight around Jordan already. I know you were. I both listened to a Lewis Howes podcast. Well, it was Noah Kagan interviewing Lewis Howes, which highly recommend. Really great episode. But we were listening to him, and Lewis has that kind of same approach where he's got hours and hours into research before the guest ever shows up. And so I was almost like, in my head a Little bit during this conversation going, are we asking questions that he's been asked a hundred times already? Are we just doing the thing that he's telling other podcasters not to do shit? And then I was like, I mean. I mean, I don't freak out too much. Cause who gives a shit? We don't take this that seriously. But that's kind of what I was thinking of. Like, fuck. I want to make sure, especially with him, who does this kind of research, that we are getting the kind of gold out of him that he's trying to get out of his guests.

He did text me, actually, on the side and he said, what the hell's wrong with Matt? I was like, does he never even care? Does he not care?

There goes my credibility just all went out the window.

He actually. Yeah, he did not include you on the chains.

One podcast episode ruined my life.

There you go. That's it. You're done forever. I'll just take the show over. See you, Matt. Bye.

Well played. Well played, sir. Oh, man. Now here. You know, the thing with researching guests and I think any. Any research, I think it's really fun, you know, especially if you're going to have the opportunity to chat with anyone. I think it's just really fun too, because I'm similar to him where I love to go to the podcast episodes and actually listen. And.

It'S a timing thing too, so I definitely don't listen to that as many. But yeah, there's key things to pick up on that I think when you listen to something and maybe not read everything, you do kind of maybe spot the gaps a little bit differently.

Yeah. Well.

And hear also, like, how they feel, like the tone of their voice and how they're navigating. Like, you know, when people light up for certain topics, you're never going to find that on like notes or written documents, but, like, if that's a feel.

It out on the call kind of thing.

Yeah. Because, you know, when we record any episode, it's just inherent. People are going to light up around certain things.

Yeah.

And, you know, you can see Travis was really lighting up a lot more about the guestio stuff because I think it's a newer thing. It's also, you know, it's this system now he's building around what he's always done in networking. But it's. Yeah, it's. I think there's a lot of cool little things if you or I as well. Because I want to. My personally, I've loved to research and learn more.

Yeah.

I mean, I almost feel like the research we've done and this is just kind of being totally honest here. I feel like most of the research that we've done has been more around what stuff has he talked about before? So we could bring up those similar.

Topics with our own spin.

With our own spin. Yeah, we always bring our own spin curiosity and we have our own curiosity and we are going to ask follow up questions that those guests didn't ask or those shows didn't ask and things like that. But I do still feel like a lot of our research is like, okay, what are the things he commonly talks about? So we can make sure we touch on those versus, like what are the things he commonly talks about? So we can either go way deeper than anybody else did on those or we could kind of avoid the stuff that's sort of abundant, the stuff that, that's already prolific, that's already kind of out there. If he's, if he's broke down his strategy on how to Grow up podcast on a hundred different podcasts, like I could just point people to one of those podcasts as opposed to bringing them on the show and talking about the same thing he's already talked about.

Right.

And so I almost feel like there's a bit of a transition that we're going through with our own podcast. We've talked about it in some of these outros and some of our therapy session quote unquote episodes. But there's this kind of transition that we're having where we want to really up level our game, like when it comes to quality of content. Right. Like we got the studio, we got the backdrop, we got the lighting, we got the cameras.

Physical shit.

Yeah, we've gone down the rabbit hole of like physically improving the video quality and the audio quality of our podcast. But I'm not necessarily sure that we've really taken great strides to improve the, like, the actual content, the interview style, the types of questions we ask. And that's a sort of renaissance we're having right now is this realization that, that like we can be so much better as interviewers, as hosts, as curators.

Oh yeah, 100%. And there's a couple things I'm like chuckling a little bit because we always, or at least me, I feel like a lot of times, and I remember Lewis Howells was saying this as well in that interview with Noah, which, yeah, we should link that for sure in the show notes because it's a, it's a gold. But how he, you know, sometimes he'll beat himself up or think, oh, that was a crappy episode. And then it turns out to be a great one, or, like, well reviewed one, well welcomed by his audience. And same thing happens a lot with.

Us, 100 freaking percent. In fact, it's almost comical how often I think, eh, that episode wasn't that good. And then we get messages from listeners going, that was a gold mine. That was the best episode you've done. And you and I might have had a conversation, like, right after doing that interview going, should we scrap that?

Should we delete it? Should we just. Nah, I don't feel it.

Yeah, it's kind of bizarre because I think that we're sort of out of touch with, like, are we good interviewers? I don't know. I think we're kind of out of touch because we're constantly in this mindset of, like, we want to improve, we want to get better, we want to get better. So we look back at the past stuff and go, I see where I could have done that better. But from the audience's perspective, they're probably seeing this evolution that we're not seeing. It's like when you have a toddler that's growing up, like, somebody that sees that toddler once every three months goes, holy crap, that kid's getting huge. But the parents who see the toddler every day, you think the kid's not growing.

Right.

Cause you're seeing them every day.

We're experiencing that right now.

I feel like with the podcast interviewing, that kind of happens as well. Like, you just get better and better and better, but because it's you doing it and it's you putting in the reps, you're not really noticing the getting better.

We're putting in the reps, though, like you just said. Yeah. And. And if we weren't analyzing ourself or being critical about what we're doing during those reps, fixing our form, fixing all this shit, and we analyze it out loud apparently, too. So we do it all the time. I mean, it's constant and it's, you know, obviously sometimes he's got to like, all right, enough of the analyzing. Let's just do the damn thing. Which is why you just got to stay consistent and continue to do the reps. And when it comes to building your network or your, you know, and reaching out to people, do that consistently as well. Like, that's not just a one and done. Oh, that didn't work once. Ah, screw it, I suck. Or, oh, that's too hard. It's like, bull. There's different angles, there's different approaches. If you have a pulse, you can get them, or at least you can somehow get closer to them.

There's always ways in. There's always a way in. But, yeah, so there's two interviews that I'll reference. One, the Noah Kagan and the interviewing Lewis Howes. And then there's. There's also a really good interview. We've actually referenced it on past episodes where Casey Neistat interviews Jimmy Donaldson, Mr. Beast. And there was one thing that both of them said on both the interviews that I think resonates for us. Both of them made a comment to the effect of, I can't stand all the old content that I put out. Every video I want to make sure is better than the last video. Every podcast I want to make sure is better than the last one I put out. I remember Mr. Beast on the. Casey Neistat was saying the video that he put. When he watches videos he puts out two months ago, he cringes because he thinks they're so bad, because everything he's doing is up, leveled past what he made last time. And Lewis Howes talking to Noah said something to pretty much the same effect. And I really think to stand out as a podcast, to stand out as a YouTuber, to actually get some sort of notoriety and build a platform, you kind of gotta have a little bit of that mentality of, like, what I did yesterday sucked. How do I make it better?

Yeah. And especially with such consistency, if you don't, you're just doing everyone a disservice. You're not growing and you're not allowing your audience to grow through you. And you're not growing maybe in the type of guests you're bringing on or the way you interview or how you. How you. Or how we prepare for interviews. There's so many things. And that's why, I think that's why we see this as much of a game now. And I mean, even before podcasting, we saw just content and connecting with people as such a game. And it was fun. It is. Is fun. And yeah, I think it's. It's really cool. And I. And like you said, this renaissance time almost of our own podcast and content brand is shifting a little bit. And I like how really the last two interviews we did today have kind of. I feel like it's kind of going that direction more into this insights, like we talked about, like, instead of pure tactics or processes, even though that's always going to kind of come out naturally, I'm assuming. But, like we're looking for these insights that might be the, you know, just that the secret sauce or, like, what is the thing that they're doing or thinking about, the mental model that maybe we can extract from a conversation and, you know, that's navigated through deep research, looking into the gaps of what they're saying or not saying, and then trying to discover some of these gems that might not appear in other podcasts, especially in the business space, where we can make it a more interesting for us, but then way more interesting for the audience. You guys listening? Because it's different and it's not what you might be expecting as well.

Yeah, I mean, we literally added a whole second segment to every podcast episode just so we could talk about any insights that might have popped up throughout the episode.

And that will make it all.

Yeah, Like, I think we kind of get burnt out on tactics because tactics create shiny object syndrome. You want to test them all? Tactics are fleeting. Right. Like, if we learn a tactic today, that tactic may not work six months from now. I mean, at the beginning of this episode, we were talking about Clubhouse and how we were all hot on it for a couple weeks, and none of us have actually used it in a couple months now. Right. Like, if we were talking constantly about the tactic of Clubhouse, that content's all outdated in my eyes now. Right.

For us, at least. But, yeah, for a lot of folks, even, it could be. Be. Yeah, for sure.

And so, you know, I think our shifting on the podcast is like, we like to understand how people think. What's. What's the. Like, I like processes and I like how people think. Like, how are you systematizing things and taking them off your plate? But also, like, how. How are you thinking about getting guests on? How are you thinking about this interview going into it? How are, like, like, understanding the way their brain is working and the headspace they're in, going into the types of things that they're doing, I think is so much more valuable and so much more timeless than any tactic that we can share on the episode.

That's where I wanted to kind of get with Travis, too, is like, the idea of, like, okay, so why that person? Or, like, why this one? You know?

And, yeah, what sort of criteria? How do you filter?

Because that changes so much. I mean, with us, it's changed so much. It's going to change again. It is changing right now for us.

Well, I feel like he kind of touched on that a little bit. That's the reason he created Gestio. Right. Was to, you know, if my time is really valuable to you, pay for it. Here's where you can do it.

Yeah.

You know. Yeah, yeah.

Oh, yeah. No, that's. It's a huge piece right there. Yeah, yeah. It's fascinating. I always love this concept of networking and connecting and. Because it's endless opportunities.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

And, you know, this podcast is going to keep evolving because of our network, and hopefully you got something from listening to this as well. And if you haven't checked out our Patreon Pod Hacker stuff, now, I say stuff because there is a whole system.

That we call ecosystem now.

Yeah. And so it's. It's no longer a membership style as it was for a little while. It's not a monthly thing. It's. It's just like, hey, you want to get in there? Cool. It's just one thing. Get it done. And now you're in for eternity, but as long as you know possible. Yeah, but. But the fact is that we're. It's different perspectives, all this cool stuff. So if you're looking to start a podcast or if you have one and you want to amplify it in many.

Ways, or if you haven't figured out how to make money off your podcast.

All of the above systems, dial it in. That's the place for you to go@podhacker.com but also we have Pod Hacker News, which is a weekly publication in email that we're sending out with all the insights, cool new stuff that you should pay attention to in the podcast space or maybe some other spaces that are related to it. And that's. That's free and I don't know the URL to go there, but probably go to podhacker.com news. Oh, there it is. Cool. So check it out if this struck a chord for you. Yeah. And Guestio, of course, pull up some reviews.

We've been teasing people that we're gonna read some reviews at the end of these episodes, and we haven't done it.

So let's finally remembering. Let's do this. All right, so this One is from Mr. Andy Storch. Yeah, Storch. And we actually met him on Clubhouse.

Yeah, we did.

Ironically, what. Beginning of this year or so, so. And he also has a podcast. And I will say what that is. Yeah, I'll say it right now. He is the host of the talent development hot Seat and Own your Own or Own youn Career, Own youn Life.

Podcasts and which I believe is also the title of his book, Own youn Career, Own youn Life.

That would make sense. Smart man. So he said, great show for business success. I just discovered the show after meeting the host on Clubhouse and I love the conversation and value they bring. Those of us that are looking to grow a business and a brand, I'll definitely be listening more.

Wouldn't that be funny if he was on the Clubhouse where we were talking with Travis and that would be really cool. That'd be kind of ironic, but awesome.

Let's do one more. Let's do one more.

Just pick at random.

Let's hear it. Okay, this one's a little longer from Josh Christ and he gave us a five star star.

Yeah, that's pretty cool. All the people I was. I'm actually a little bummed that the people who have given us one or two star reviews never actually leave comments. I want to know why I get the low reviews because I want to read those on the air too.

It's true. No, it's like, it's like if you're going to leave a review or a rating or something, like, yeah, we love the five stars or whatever you feel. Yeah, but, you know, more specific the better. But come on, if you're going to rate any lower, tell us why.

It's almost like crop dusting somebody, right? Like when you walk by them and you just real quick and then just like keep on walking. You're like, what the.

What was that for? Why me? Yeah, why me?

What was that like? You come by and you drop a one star review because it's easy for you to do and then you don't tell us why.

One click and be out. And now you just dropped a bomb or an spd. There you go. All right, so Josh Christ wrote, entertaining, insightful and actionable fire emoji. Whether you are an established, whether you are well established as an entrepreneur or just getting started, started carving out a profitable niche or niche Matt, that's ready to grow. This is a must listen podcast for you. Matt and Joe do an incredible job leading conversations that cover a large breadth of topics related to the ins and outs of building a thriving business and life you can be proud of with leaders who've actually experienced success themselves. Highly recommended listening and subscribe. Subscribing. That's right, Josh.

Thank you, Josh.

Appreciate that, dude. Reach out to us in support@evergreenprofits.com what am I saying? That's a URL.

Well, I guess you could go to evergreenprofits.com contact.

There you go.

That would work.

And hit us up. We'll send you a shirt so. And Andy, too. I gotta. I think we got your contact, Andy, but if you're hearing this, reach out to us. Yeah, we'll hook you up a couple shirts here, guys. Send us your socks. And you listening. If you have not left a review or subscribed, don't be one of those crop dusters.

Don't be a crop duster. Yes, subscribe. Leave a review. If you leave a review, we'll read some on our episodes. And any ones that we read on the episode, we'll hook you up with a free shirt as a thank you.

Alrighty, what else we got? We got Easy Webby. Let's talk about our boys and girls at Easy Webby. So, as you probably have heard, webinars, webinars, they're good. They're the jam.

They work for people.

Yeah, they are amazing. They absolutely do work. But they can get very frustrating. Why can they get frustrating?

Because they're not easy.

Why not?

Because there's a billion steps that you have to go through and you have to decide, do I want to do it live, do I want to do it automated, do I want to record it? But then make it look like it's live. Like a hybrid webinar. How do I manage comments when I'm doing webinars? I don't know. What about the landing page? Do I have to go build a whole custom landing page just to register people for my webinar?

But you're the tech guy. I thought you love doing this stuff.

Yeah, but if there's an easier way, I always look for shortcuts.

Do you?

And you know what my shortcut is?

What is it?

Easywebinar.com Hustle.

Oh, why Hustle, though?

Because if you go to easywebinar.com you can buy easy webinar and they'll sell it to you. But if you go to EasyWebinar.com hustle, because you're hearing this on Hustle and Flowchart, they're actually giving you a discount so you pay less money if you go to Slash Hustle.

And guess what? It even says this on the EasyWebinar.com hustle page. It says, this discounted price stays with you for luck life. Yes, that's. That's pretty hardcore. So, yeah, I would say if you're doing anything. Webinar. Webinar.

Webinar.

Yeah. Or thinking about it, you know the place to go.

Easywebinar.com hustle.

That's it. Don't whisper, Matt. Hustle.

Oh, yeah, sorry. Sorry, Jacob.

That Sometimes cuts off. I've been reprimanded.

Yeah, you've been reprimanded for whispering in the past. I forgot about that.

Easy webinar.com hustleg go there.

The crowd erupts and you're gonna get a high five. And thank you very much. We love you for listening.

Well, you can't leave easywebinar.com with a want want.

That is true. Good call. I'm gonna come up here.

I'm gonna come up. One last call to action.

What are we doing?

If you go to flowchartgroup.com you can get the action guide for this episode. You've probably heard us say that a billion times, and we're like a broken record. But if you go to flowchartgroup.com you could join our Facebook group. One of the questions will be to give us your email. If you give us your email, we'll hook you up with the latest action guides that came out within two weeks of whenever you signed up. So hopefully that's this episode, but you also get to be in a really cool Facebook group.

So go to flowchart group.com flowchartgroup.com it's.

The room where it happens.

In the room where it happens.

The room.

Hey, I'm stopping.

We don't want. I don't want any more calls from Disney Joe.

I added. Did some. Some twinkles.

Some twinkles.

Hopefully that covers up the algorithms of Disney.

Is this twinkles?

Whoa. Look at you. The room where it happens.

Yeah, there. There's our twinkle button.

Flowchartgroup.com Be there. Don't be square.

Love you. Leave a review Share with friends thanks everybody for listening to this episode of the Hustle and Flowchart podcast, for taking the time to listen. We want to give you something a little bit special. Every single episode that we do, we actually have somebody on our team take notes. We basically have a Cliff's Notes version of every episode where you can go and find all of the tips and tactics that they laid out, all of the resources that they laid out, all the good stuff from this episode. We actually have a nice, simple notes version that you can find on our website. So go to evergreenprofits.com find this episode that you just listened to, and give us your email address and we'll send you the notes. Thanks for listening.

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