♻️ Where To Focus For Exponential Wealth Growth (Featuring Mark Joyner)

Then you start to kind of unwire yourself from all of this stuff, and you start to think for yourself and you say, wait a minute. Maybe the information landscape is kind of a game, and maybe what's really going on is something that I don't have enough information to understand. And I think that's probably a closer description of what's really going on in the world. I mean, I was a guy with a top secret SCI clearance, but I only got access to a small compartment. So not even I know, and not even then when I had access did I know what was really going on. For people to think that they can really understand what's going on in the world by turning on the news, which is deliberately designed to make you perceive reality in a particular way. I don't think it's a good premise to start your life from. Boom, boom, boom, boom, boom, boom.

What's up, everybody? You're listening to the Hustle and Flowchart podcast with your boys, Matt Wolf and Joe Fear.

Hey, welcome back to the Hustle and Flowchart podcast. I'm gonna make this intro super quick because I've got one of the worst colds that I ever remember having right now, and I'm feeling pretty brutal now. Now this month in January, we've been putting out some of the episodes that have been the most impactful for our business, that have sort of shaped the trajectory of where we are now and led us on the path that we've been on. And today's episode is another one of these special episodes that gave us a ton of aha moments. Today we're talking with Mark Joyner, and on this episode, we talked about a whole slew of different things. But the core of this is the media and how to find trusted resour sources and how to actually know what's real and what's not within the cycles of the news. And it's really obviously very relevant in this pandemic world that we're in right now. We actually recorded this towards the beginning of 2020, I believe. We were about six weeks into lockdowns here in the US when we recorded this. The whole coronavirus lockdown mask mandates, all that kind of stuff was still very, very, very fresh when we recorded this, back towards the beginning of 2020. So you're going to hear a lot of what was going on in the world at that time in this episode. And I think you're gonna find it very interesting to see how it played.

Out, but also you're gonna get a.

Lot of advice on how to view news and media. And we're also gonna talk about how rapidly everything is changing in technology. There is so much changing so fast, and it's really, really hard to keep up with everything. And unless you're really focused on what's going on in the world and what'.

Probably getting left behind. And that conversation, although we didn't Talk specifically about Web3 and crypto and that side of the technology, it feels very relevant to the web 3 and the crypto stuff that we're talking about now. So a great conversation with Mark Joyner. You're really, really going to enjoy this one. Don't forget that we do have notes for this episode. We have the Cliffs Notes version of this episode. If you just want to read everything we talked about, you can get that for free by going over to our discord hustle and flowchart.com discord. We will save the notes for this episod episode and any episodes that we mentioned we have notes for inside of the download section, inside of our discord. And finally, if you're not following us on Twitter, follow me. I am Matt Rwolf on Twitter. Joe is Joe Fear on Twitter. And if you want some extra credit, go follow Hard Fork Media on Twitter. That is our new media brand. And that Twitter account is run by the whole little syndicate that we've created here.

Go follow us in those places.

We'll be hooking you up with cool stuff, cool info, lots of insights, and we'll take you deeper and deeper down this ra. Rabbit hole with us. So go check those places out, and let's jump in with Mark Joyner.

All right, Mark, how you doing, man?

I'm doing great. How are you guys doing?

Amazing. I mean, I don't know, you're in Thailand, so that sounds actually a lot more amazing. San Diego's fun.

I don't know.

We got you early in the morning, which is cool. So bright and early.

Yeah, well, San Diego is pretty rad in itself. We're both in good places to be in lockdown in this.

Not bad.

So.

Right. Interesting.

Could be worse. Could be worse.

Yeah. No, we were just chatting prior to all this stuff is, you know, you just. And we stumbled across this without even knowing, but this roadmap you ironically put out before everything kind of hit the fan, perturbatively. So we're all locked down.

Yes. Yes. It's one of my predictions of which I am not proud. I wish I were wrong about a lot of these things, but I think a lot worse things are on the horizon. We can talk about that, but here we are.

Well, I'd love to get into that stuff in a couple of minutes. Before we do, I want to give our audience an introduction to you in case they, they may not know who you are yet. You are one of the godfathers of Internet marketing. I mean you, your resume of what you've done for the digital marketing space is just insane. So I was wondering if maybe you could kind of give a quick recap before we get into all the futurism stuff. We're going to talk about, about some of the stuff you've done in the digital marketing world and sort of how you got into this space.

Sure, I'm happy to. So yeah, a lot of people call me the father of digital marketing. I mean, in truth, you know, I like the said, one of the godfathers. There are many people who contributed a lot in the early days and made all this happen, but some of the things that I did, well, I invented the tracking pixel. I started the first ebook publishing company. I started the first ad tracking company. The one click upsell was something my company did first. We were the first to do online marketing funnels. We started the first viral traffic building service and a bunch of other stuff. But those are some of the highlights, you know, some of the things that. These are all things now. You know, it's funny, a lot of this stuff back, you know, when we were talking pre show, I was talking about how I have sort of a history of being lambasted for some of my future predictions and inventions. You know, back in the early days, you know, when I first started the first ebook publishing company, there were, you know, the tech press was like, nobody's going to read ebooks. You know, this is, they were talking about how stupid it was. And now ebooks outsell print books, Amazon. Yeah, yeah, right. And then the tracking pixel, you know, a lot of people are just like, well, you know, nobody's going to use this. This is stupid. You know. And now of course, you know, billions of dollars of transactions every day, you know, at Facebook, I'm waiting for my royalty check.

I was going to say Facebook, Google, come on.

I know, I know, right? Well, it's funny, you know, some people say, they say, you know, don't you regret not patenting all that stuff? And it's funny, actually, I'm kind of cool with it because if I had patented it, what would have happened was they would have just rebranded it as something else. They would have had better lawyers and I wouldn't have been able to get any credit. Now they're calling it the stuff I called it, and I'm like, fine. That's just great for me. It's just good pr. So worked out all right.

That's good. Yeah. And I mean, they probably would have drained you a lot of time, energy, and money. That's not fun.

Yeah, it's not fun. I've been relatively lawsuit free my entire business career, and I would like to keep it that way.

That's right now. And now with the futurism type stuff. So, you know, you've done well, I guess, kind of jumping ahead there. So you did all the Internet stuff. So what were you. What was your core business back then when you were kind of inventing these things that now are just kind of take it for granted?

Well, what's funny is, is when I first started doing it, I was actually serving in the US Military. A lot of people don't realize, you know, when I started doing this, I was actually in the military intelligence community, but I never told anybody online that I was actually a soldier.

But it's a great story, though.

It is a great story. I can tell it now, but back then I didn't want to because I didn't want there to be any conflict of interest. And, you know, it was. It was. It was kind of tricky to navigate, especially, you know, having a security clearance and all that. There's all kinds of weird things that I had to do. But the, you know, the. The first business that I started, I was actually selling stuff. This is the first, you know, sort of digital marketing business. I was selling a how to get free language training from the government program, because that's what I did. I mean, in the intelligence community, the government gave me free language training. I learned the Korean language, of all things, for free. My recruiter told me I could pick my language, which is total bullshit. They lie to you. They all lie to you. And I was like, oh, I get to meet all the French girls. No disappointments at all about Koreans. You know, I was very, very. Ultimately, I was quite happy about that. Anyway, I sold that in on bulletin board services before the Internet really blew up. I don't know if you guys know what these BBS things were, but, you know, you'd have to dial in. You guys know about that?

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

It's sort of like. I mean, it's one of these old, you know, stories of, you know, ancient Internet lore. You know, they're still out there. Usually you dial into one and it would be one thing, but there Was a bit of virality there because people would spread things around across these different bulletin board services. And then, I mean, before that, I had a lot of entrepreneurial stuff that I did as a kid, most of it legal. And then later, you know, when the Internet came around, I, you know, one of my biggest hits was a website that was all about what we call biohacking. Now, you know, there's a website called Hot Rod. You'd head. And it was about, you know, different ways to improve your intelligence, increase your lifespan, improve your human performance and all that. And there was no really back then, there was no playbook for online marketing. Right. But, you know, people kept coming to me, they're like, man, we're seeing you do so well on the Internet. Can you teach us what you're doing? And then finally I was like, man, maybe there's a business to this. You know, maybe. Maybe I should start. So I started signing my emails off as Internet marketing guru, right? And then people are like, oh, oh, you're like the Internet marketing guru guy. So I kind of. I kind of like, was the guy for the longest time out there. And then there were a few others out there too. You know, back in the early days, like, you know, Corey Rudle and Mike Enlow and guys like that, you know, we're doing it too. But we all kind of had to invent things out of thin air. And for me, I didn't have any formal marketing education. Nobody taught me this stuff. What I did is I just basically applied what I knew from studying military strategy and human psychology, and I applied that to business. And it just so turns out that, you know, that playbook worked out pretty well. And then I started learning the direct marketing stuff from the old school. Direct marketing. Great. Psych. I became friends with all the old school direct marketers and started bringing them online, which was kind of cool.

Yeah, that's really cool. So you're kind of that conduit to this new thing. And I know the military training and mindset even now we'll talk about this newest creation thing you put out there, this roadmap as well. Seems like it has a lot of that baked into there as well, right from the beginning.

Yeah, well, to me, I mean, you know, my military influence is never going to go away. And I see this as just an essential part of life. I mean, even if you get into different spiritual practices, if you read the Bhagavad Gita, for example, there are a lot of people who don't understand the larger context of the Bhagavad Gita. They read that and without understanding the larger context, they're only, they're getting a minimal understanding of it. And really the larger context is, it's a part of a larger piece called the Mahabharata and it's a big, you know, it's a massive, massive tale. But Arjuna had to go to war with a bunch of people and a lot of them were his family members. And the Bhagavad Gita is this conversation between Arjun and Krishna. And it's Krishna getting Arjun's mind right. With the fact that it's okay. Right. This is part of our existence that, you know, the life is warfare. And you know, don't, don't feel bad about having to do this. It's part of the grand design. So, you know, I love using military as metaphor for many things because it is so apt for so many things.

Yeah, it really is. And that's why it's interesting. I have a lot of military friends. You know, we're in San Diego, so a lot of Marines here and Navy.

Yeah.

Right on.

Talking to a lot of them. You know, it is interesting because they're interested in business, but there's a lot of carryover with leadership and strategy. And I always find it fascinating to talk to, you know, leaders in those spaces because it's exactly what you're saying. There's truly fun.

Absolutely. Yeah. Yeah. That's a deep rabbit hole. We could spend probably several hours just talking about that. I give actual many hour lectures just about using military concepts and business.

I was just going to say one of the very early books when I started getting into digital marketing was actually Integration Marketing. That was one of the very early books that I read when I was getting into digital marketing. Didn't have a question there, just wanted to put that out there on recording.

There you go.

Awesome.

Thank you.

Thank you. That book's a textbook now. And a lot of marketing programs and universities.

Oh, wow.

Is awesome. Yeah, it's crazy. What's funny is I never, I never actually formally graduated university. I never went to school when I was a kid. I was all self taught.

Yeah.

My parents were kind of crazy hippies and I did whatever I wanted to do. Yeah. The irony is now is that, you know, even though everything that I did was self taught, when I got my, my degree, I got it through independent study and now my books are university textbooks.

Which is kind of the coolest to hear that story.

Yeah, yeah, it is, it's, it is interesting, I have to say. It's kind of crazy in a way.

What. So integration marketing came around. So was there like a kind of a pivot point for you where, okay, education, you leaned into it obviously a lot more and then Simpleology came out, that book. And then there's a whole software behind that that I thought, because that's one where I've digested a lot more of that information from you is that side of things. And, and it's really interesting because it's a lot of mental model talk, you know, and it's a lot of conditioning that we all have that we carry over into our world now. And it just sounds like you've been deep into that kind of thinking. And you know, you brought up school, not going through school and all that, but you're here, you are producing at a high level. You're writing books in a day. I believe I've read about you as well. It's just interesting.

You've done your homework, you've done your.

Homework a little bit, but it seems like you have probably some of these other mental models that most people might not have. Definitely.

Yeah. I would say in a way it was probably an advantage that I didn't go to formal schooling because I think that, you know, I mean, the formal schooling that I did get, I look back on it and I'm like, man, these guys were brainwashing us. Especially in California, you know, there's so much of a social agenda that's being crammed down kids throats. And I didn't realize it at the time, but it took me a long time to realize that. Even the stuff that I got peripherally, even though I didn't go to school that often, when I would go to school for a little while and quit, and I would be like, all right, I'm done with this. Because these people are idiots. And I mean, I literally, I just couldn't stand most of the teachers. I mean, no disrespect to all of them. Some of them were wonderful, but most of them were just. I remember having a conversation with a philosophy professor at once. I got my GED and tested in the university. I went to university. And he said, he just said one of the stupidest things in the world. I had to walk out after that. I was like, this is it. He said, you know, Darwin says it's the survival of the fittest, but is it always the fittest and the strongest to survive? And I was like, dude, that's not what Darwin meant. You're like, you're teaching a philosophy class and you don't even understand what the fundamental basis of what you're talking about. I'm like, I'm out, you know, Like, I just. I can't. I can't tolerate any of this. But the, you know, the little interactions I did have in school, I look back on it now and I realize it took me years to kind of undo some of the subtle conditioning that was there and the subtle conditioning that I got passively from my friends because all my friends were being conditioned in a certain way by. And I realize now, I just. I know that so much of what people believe to be true is believed because of conditioning. And I think that that conditioning happens in many, many different ways. And being a veteran of the military intelligence community, I mean, I can tell you authoritatively now that, you know, I mean, most of the media you consume is influenced by many things, you know, and this is gonna. A lot of people are like, oh, no, it sounds like all conspiracy theory stuff. No, man, you can validate this. This is a fact, you know, I mean, all the way from product placement by corporations to interest groups and intelligence agencies and governments deliberately planting messages into media. And it's all forms of media. And if anybody hears this and they think, oh, that just can't be true, well, do a little digging and you'll find out that through the Freedom of Information Act, a lot of this has been declassified, and it's just a fact. And I've done consultation for corporations who do product placement, you know, in entertainment. You know, I mean, it's.

It's.

It's a thing. And the problem is that people are not aware of it. So there. There are all of these sources of conditioning that we're exposed to. But when you're not aware that it's conditioning when you're consuming it, as if it's. As if the surface level of the information that's being presented to you is reality. Then all of the conditioning goes right into your unconscious mind and you don't even know to question it. So it's a. It's a very, very difficult thing for people to navigate. And this is why I spend a lot of helping to make people aware of this kind of thing, because I think it's sort of like a foundational thing that you've got to know as a human being to actually function properly in the world today.

And I heard some stat lately that, you know, 85% of people, I don't know if it was the US or in the. In the world are. Have the attention right there in the news, it's the media. It's all during this Covid kind of time. It's wild. Like, I mean, that is a lot of conditioning happening right now. So times are never going to be like they were just, you know, three months ago.

No, no, they're not.

They're not.

And I. And I think it's only going to get stranger, you know, and the more we get into the roadmap stuff, I can tell you about how strange it's. I think it's going to get, but this is one of the big problems right now. It's, you know, I know you guys are. As we started talking, you guys have just started reading the roadmap. And, you know, one of the things that I talk about, one of the. What we want to call the nine great threats, is the great educational deficit, and that is epistemological illiteracy. And what I mean by that is, I mean, epistemology is a study of knowledge. It's a study of information. And most people don't understand how they know what they know, how they form their beliefs. And if you were to become aware of that process, there are processes that we follow. There are, for example, heuristics that we use. There are models of persuasion, like the heuristic systemic model and the elaboration likelihood model that explain how beliefs are formed passively in our minds. And if people knew that when they watched the news, they would watch it through a very, very different lens. But most people today watch the news and they see it for the surface reality that's being presented. But once you start comparing different sources of news and you start seeing a lot of the inconsistencies and how the inconsistencies are not just from news source to news source, but even from day to day, it doesn't matter where. And I'm not going to say anything one way or the other politically. I don't want to make this a divis. Political conversation because people will turn into a, you know, they'll turn into automatons and be like, oh, no, he's for this guy or against that guy or whatever. No, that I don't want. I don't want. I don't want you to shut your mind down. What I want you to do is, I want you to say, hey, wait a minute, you know, is. Is the news that I trust. Are they being internally consistent with their message? And I can guarantee you they're not, right? Because you'll notice that, you know, they. They will hold a certain politician up to a moral standard. And then the next day, that moral standard doesn't apply anymore when they're talking about another politician that they're trying to prop up. And so every different news source, of course, has their favorite people that they're trying to prop up and diminish. And this is just this big game. But if you start to watch that and pay attention to it and start to say, hey, wait a minute, I'm not going to. You're not being intellectually consistent here, then you start to kind of unwire yourself from all of this stuff, and you start to kind of think for yourself, and you say, wait a minute. Maybe the information landscape is kind of a game, and maybe what's really going on is something that I don't have enough information to understand. And I think that's probably a closer description of what's really going on in the world. I mean, I was a guy with the Top Secret SCI clearance. That means specially compartmentalized information, right? But I only got access to a small compartment. That's what compartmentalization is all about. So not even I know, and not even then, when I had access, did I know what was really going on. So for people to think that they can really understand what's going on in the world by turning on the news, which is deliberately designed to make you perceive reality in a particular way, I don't think it's a good premise to start your life from.

No, it seems like it's like you could see a lot of hints. You know, there'll be, like, a lot of. A lot of hints on the news, but that's a hint to go a little deeper on something. If you find some inconsistencies elsewhere on the different channels out there, go start digging on Reddit, Twitter, other sources that you probably know about.

That's it. That's it. That's. That's the beginning. But you got to be careful there, too, because the disinformation game, it's. It's vast. And I just want to explain something really interesting to you guys, right? So when I was in, you know, we called it the intelligence community, right? We still do to a certain extent. But, you know, we had all these different branches of intelligence. You know, we had humans, human intelligence, sigint, signals intelligence, right? But now it's all under one big umbrella of what we call IO, information operations. And part of information operations involves deliberate disruption of information. So when people started talking about the Russians interfering in our election in 2016, as if that was some kind of new thing, I was like, Are you kidding me? This is news. This has been going on for decades. So when you go on to, like, Reddit or any of these alternative sources, you got to understand there are people who actually are paid to go on to Wikipedia and to make sure that certain agendas are carried out in certain definitions of terms. There are people who are paid to astroturf Google to make sure that what you see on particular topics is leaning in one particular direction.

Explain astroturfing really fast just for folks that might not get it.

Okay, so astroturfing is this. So when you go out and you do a search, you think, okay, I'm gonna find out what does the world know about this? Right? Well, that definition of what the world knows about it is based on what you find in the search. That's the search engine results pages. Right now. The search engine results pages is one of the guys. I started the second pay per click search engine back in the day, and I knew this was a problem. I was like, man, there are a lot of people out there that are trying to manipulate our algorithms and try to show up first. And it was kind of a battle. So that battle is still being fought today. Now, Google will tell you that their battle is that they want the truth to be out there, and there's a lot of information out there now to show that that's not actually true. You know, that Google actually has a pretty clearly defined political agenda and that they. They actually will slant information in particular directions. So the notion of astroturfing is to say, all right, let me dominate the information landscape. Let me dominate Google, let me dominate YouTube, let me dominate Facebook, so that whenever somebody looks up a topic like GMOs, for example, that all they're going to find is GMOs are safe. All of the scientists say that GMOs are safe. Anybody who questions GMOs are crazy conspiracy theorists. That's just cuckoo coop for Cocoa Puffs. If you question that. Right? And that's what you're going to find everywhere. However you feel about GMOs, that's your own. That's your own opinion. But what I would tell you is that that is a very heavily astroturf topic, because there are a lot. Say again now.

I just said Monsanto.

Monsanto clearly, clearly has some financial interest in making you think GMOs are all right.

Right. Yeah.

So anyway, you know, I hope that leads people to start going down the rabbit hole and say, so how did I form my opinion?

So what is your approach? Let's say you want to go down a rabbit hole on a specific topic. Where do you go? How do you compare sources? What does your process look like?

It's hard, man. It's hard. Now it's getting harder. What I do is the same way that we handled information when we were in the intelligence community. You deal with packages of information. An intelligence package is going to have multiple corroborating sources. So before you say, hey, you know what, we're going to lob a bomb on this particular target, we want to make really, really sure that we're not blowing up a school yard full of kids, you know, and there are a lot of people who take that very, very seriously. And when we get that wrong, people hear about it and we do get it wrong. So multiple corroborating sources is one thing, but you have to go a little bit deeper than that now, because you can get multiple corroborating sources now that are all extremely well coordinated. And I'm going to say something that I know a lot of people are going to go, oh, this, this is just too crazy to believe. Well, I believe that a lot of the information that you're presented right now is actually extremely well coordinated. And then there are people who will say that's just, that's it's, it's not possible to coordinate information on that mass scale. And I will tell you right now that it's actually very possible and it's actually super easy. And here's how it works. You don't have to have everybody in on a conspiracy to pull off a conspiracy of getting people to believe a particular truth. What you have to have is you have to have access to choke points, right? So, for example, let's say one choke point is one media source or one search source or whatever. You have to have access to individual people who can make the right decision. Now, how do you have access to those people? You get leverage on them. I mean, this is how the intelligence game is played. The intelligence game is played by getting leverage on individual people. For example, many people hypothesize right now that Jeffrey Epstein's entire reason for existence was to gain leverage on people in power. Because if you had videotapes of people performing acts of pedophilia, that's a lot of leverage. You could get a lot of politicians to vote a lot of certain ways. Well, there are a lot of other ways to gain leverage. You know, there are people with vices, there are people with debts, there are people who care about their family members. And if you Threaten their family members. Like, hey, you report the news this way or we're going to do X, Y and Z. And there are different layers of this. And again, this is, you know, a lot of people who aren't familiar with the way the intelligence community actually operates are going to hear that. They're going to go, oh, that's just all nonsense. No, that's actually how things kind of work, right? That's. And that's a game that's been played for thousands of years behind the scenes. And if you go all the way back to the Art of War, even Sun Tzu talks about the use of spies and he talks about these very things. So the way I go about looking at information right now is it has to be multi layered, right? So instead of looking at trying to find multiple sources, because I know that those multiple sources may corroborate the same bullshit, then what I have to find out is, okay, well, what are the people that are likely to be lying to me saying? Then I'll start out with that and I'll say, okay, why are they, why do they want me to believe this? Why do they want me to believe this? And then I might go look at some alternative sources, but tentatively, because a lot of the alternative sources turn out to be total bullshit, too. There are, there are fake alternative news sources out there that are deliberately planted on the Internet to confuse you, to send you down wrong rabbit holes. So you've kind of got to just gather as large a swath of information as you can and then, you know, use what Robert Greene talked about in the 50th law. You know, in the 50th law, you know, 50 Cent said, you got to have the hustler's eye. You know, the hustler's eye was seeing things as they really are. What can you actually know? So for the, for example, in the COVID situation right now, you know, there are things we can and can't know. We can't really know the number of deaths. We can't really know the number of people that are infected. You know, we know now that there are doctors out there who are being pressured to mark deaths down as Covid. Right? I don't, I don't know if we can really know the reality of this virus. But what we can know is that we're on lockdown right now in a lot of places. And we can know that there are a lot of people who really, who want us to be in lockdown. And there are certain voices who are for it and who are who seem to be against it. And all of that could be a game too. Right. So you've got to look at what's reality, and then you got to distinguish that from what people are saying. Because what people are saying can be very, very deceptive and there can be layers upon layers of deception built into what they're saying. So I don't have any easy answers for you on this. I hate to tell you, but the problem is that with the epistemological illiteracy that we have right now, people don't know how to even begin to scratch and peel at the basic layers. They're not going to ask that basic question of like, you know, what do I actually know for sure, you know, what is observably true and you know, what. What benefit could someone have for wanting me to believe a particular thing? And they don't have the tools for sniffing out when people are trying to persuade you in a particular direction. When you watch a lot of the, you know, a lot of the news right now, a lot of what is called news is just. Is so blatantly persuasion now.

Well, it's more marketing than anything from what, you know, it's like if you want to really study marketing right now and attention and engagement with the audience, you study the news. That's not where you're going to find it, though. That's right. That's right.

That's how we're going to find the real information. But you will, you will get a PhD level education in how to manipulate minds. Yeah. Because they are doing a damn good job of it.

Yeah.

I also feel like there's an element too of like there's possibly purposely this information here, this counter. This information over here that's sort of counterintuitive to what this information over here is saying. And they're like purposely maybe trying to keep everybody a little confused and on their toes and kind of wondering what to believe.

That's one of the theories. You know, one of the theories out there is that it's like, hey, make the information landscape so inscrutable that everybody just gives up. Right. And. And if that's their aim, they've done a damn good job. Because even, even for me, I mean, I think I'm one of the best equipped people on the planet to be able to discern what's going on right now. And I'm still going. I don't actually know. Yeah, I got some theories. It's not good, man. It's not good. But what I can say with a certain degree of confidence is that there is a game being played that is much higher than what is being presented to us on the surface. I think that's kind of like the table stakes understanding that you have to have before you can really start to understand what's going on in the world.

Well, I was going to say we could probably talk about this topic for like two hours, but I do want to get into your roadmap, which does overlap quite a bit actually, with the. Indeed with the future technologies and stuff. So let's start at just kind of the very, very high level of what this roadmap is that you put out. Just kind of the quick synopsis and then we'll kind of dive in a bit.

Well, the basic notion here is that throughout history we've had this phenomenon that I call either the great having or the great doubling, depending on how you want to look at it. It's a doubling in the rate of paradigm shifts, in the speed in which paradigm shifts are occurring, or it is a halving of the time in between one paradigm shift and the next. If you were to take every paradigm shifting discovery or invention and map it out on a timeline, what you would is hopefully you can see this. An exponential growth curve, right? You know, it's been kind of increasing, increasing. But as exponents do, they get to a point where they suddenly start to shoot up, right? And we're kind of right here, right now. You know, we're at the point where it's going to start shooting up so fast that like every day in one industry or another, we're experiencing a paradigm shift. And there are guys talking about this, like, you know, Ray Kurzweil and the Singularity Movement talks about this, but they talk about it from a very different lens than I do. Their lens is like, hey, it's gonna usher in this wonderful world of ultimate abundance and everything is gonna be wonderful. And I'm like, I'm not so sure, guys. I'm not so sure.

You're an optimist too, I heard.

I am actually an optimist. I'm a total optimist.

Well, shit, we're all screwed then.

We're not screwed. We're not screwed. Well, here's the thing. I think we need to look at it through a lens of reality, right? So, you know, the, the base thing to look at here and this again, dealing with what we can know, right? So like, that graph is something we can know, like that is observable, you know, and it's, it's right now, it's you know, it's observable in Moore's Law, for one thing. And Moore's Law is actually accelerating the rate at which it's happening in different industries, right? So paradigm shifts are happening in every industry, all over the place. And there are probably paradigm shifts that have occurred in the last 10 years that you don't even have any idea about. That's how vast the information landscape is right now. And that's another phenomenon, by the way, that I call the complexity gap. There's another exponential curve and that is the rate at which information is being entered into the stream. And the complexity gap is the gap in between how much information you can process consciously, which is only about seven bits of data. In 2005, Eric Schmidt famously said, Today we're entering five exhibits of data into the stream every day. That is exactly the amount of information that we entered in from the dawn of mankind until the end of 2003. And we're doing that every day. And the rate at which that is occurring is also increasing. That was 2005. So every day the number of exabytes that we're entering into the information stream is getting bigger and bigger. So this is part of the larger phenomenon. And that's, and that's also clearly observable. That's like that, that's a, that, you know, that's something that's like. We don't have to worry about this information about that. That is like an axiomatic thing we can all observe. Another axiomatic thing we can all observe is what I call the big five phenomena. And that is that everything is getting faster, smaller, more powerful, more available and cheaper. Now the Kurzweils and the Diamondises of the world are all like, see, that's what's going to bring an abundance. And I'm like, well why do you think that's not going to happen to weapons technology? And I'll give you a couple of examples. All right, so for example, 3D printable automatic weapons. Now we've had that for many years now. And the government's answer was, well, we'll just make the plans illegal. And I thought, really? So how did that work out for the piracy of digital content?

Yeah, look at Napster. That was happening way back in early 2000s.

I mean, yeah, it was illegal back then. And probably all three of us torrented some shit within the last couple of weeks. Right? Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. No, no, we never do that. We never do that. Yeah, yeah. Off the record, off the record, right. So like every, I Mean, that's, that's obviously passing the law is not going to change. This is why I, you know, and I know I'm going to piss a lot of people off with this, and I'm at a point in my life now where I just don't care anymore. But the gun control debate is just, it's so ridiculous. And it's like talking about speed regulations for horse and buggies in the flying car era. You know, it's, it's so absurd to talk about gun control when we have 3D printable automatic weapons now. So let, so that's one example. People are like, well, okay, 3D printable automatic weapons, but how far can it go? Well, remember, remember this graph, Right? Right. If technology has been growing like this, and like this, and like this and like this, and now it's shooting up and we're here, how many clock cycles are we away before we have 3D printable weapons of mass destruction?

Seconds.

Seconds, 30 minutes. We're pretty damn close. Now I'll give you a really interesting example. So two years ago, there was an assassination attempt on President Maduro of Venezuela using a commercial drone that was bought over the Internet. So what this guy did is he bought a drone on the Internet, strapped explosives to it, he was unsuccessful, but he came really damn close. So Maduro's guards were able to deploy ballistic shields fast enough like they were able to size up the situation quickly enough, like, holy, hey, something's going down. There's a drone here. They deployed the ballistic shields, that thing went off. If they had not deployed those ballistic shields in time, that they would have been successful. So what I'm telling you right now is that with a commercially available piece of equipment, a man came this close two years ago to assassinating a head of state. You might think, well, you know, with somebody like the President of the United States, he's got to have so much protection around him, so much protection. Well, here's the thing. As technology gets more and more powerful, how powerful does it have to get before a few people have technology that can rival what the government has? See, society is held together through this thing that we call the monopoly of force. The thing, the only thing that's keeping people from stabbing each other in the eyeball at the dinner table is the fact that they know that they're going to go to jail. Right? Because most people are pretty irrational. And this is a fact. And you know, and before we had a more civilized society, there was a lot, a lot more brutality in society before we had these Laws, but. And that monopoly of force is what keeps the fabric of society together. What happens when that monopoly of force is no longer held by the governments. So what I call the transition tribulation is this point we're going to get to where the war of the future is not between nation states or religions or ideologies or races or any of the traditional things that we fight about. It's going to be between fast moving technology and slow moving government. And I don't know how this is going to shape up. It could be that at the other end of this, maybe we'll figure out some way to create a utopian society. Maybe the governments of the world right now see the writing on the wall and they're trying to usher in a dystopian totalitarian state to prevent us all from destroying each other. I wouldn't necessarily fault them if that's what they're seeing. But I also don't want to live in a black mirror totalitarian hell. But what I definitely think is unavoidable is that there is going to be a transition period in between now and whatever the hell we end up into where things are going to get a lot more chaotic. And if you think that what we've seen during this Covid panic is anything, I think that's just the preview of coming attractions. I think that there are, there are probably about nine or so different ways that I outline in the Roadmap that all of this stuff can go sideways and they are threats to our very existence, but there is hope at the end of it. I was trying to tell people, look, all of these threats also have counters for each of the threats. And there are things that you can do as an individual to prepare yourself for this. And that's what the whole purpose of the Roadmap is all about. It's not to be, you know, a scaremonger. I don't, I don't think fear is a very resourceful or good state of mind to be in.

Right.

I also think that, you know, being ill prepared is also not a very good state of mind to be in as well.

Well, I think it's, it's just perfect timing because this does seem, I mean, you call it the roadmap, but that's kind of how you start. It is like you need to know how to read the map, you know, how to see what's happening around you. Starts with you and, and you're thinking, and, you know, you've written about this for years now, but this, this seems like this is the Way forward. And you just, I mean, you happen to, even though you've been spotting trends, you just ironically put this out just in time, Mark.

Yeah, maybe I'm working for the government. I don't know, maybe, maybe, maybe the guys who genetically engineered it, you know, just put it out there, you know, maybe I'm a double agent. Who knows? You know, and I'm saying that half jokingly, right? I mean, that's actually, you know, it's not too far fetched to be that skeptical of things.

Right.

You know, to be like, hey, even the people who are professing to be truth tellers, sometimes they're Trojan horses too. Yeah, yeah.

I mean, it's not lost on us that as podcasters and people that put videos out there, we are technically part of the media.

You know, you are, you are, and you are playing a role in information warfare right now, whether you know it or not. You know, I mean, that's, that is just the reality that we're existing in. But the problem is, is that most of us are just useful idiots in the game and we're not, we're not playing an active role in it. I don't think that's you guys, because you guys seem like you're pretty switched and you're thoughtful and you're asking questions, you know, and you seem to be very, very sincere. And I mean, I think you can tell, you know, when you turn on cnn, I mean, can anybody honestly watch Brian Selter and think this guy is like truly really trying to tell you the truth?

Most of them know.

Yeah, most of them know, right. But you guys, you know, I mean, you get a sense that, you know, you're, you're searching for the truth and that's, and that's kind of what you've got to look for. I think that another thing you're going to get to in the roadmap is that I think that there are other ways to perceive things beyond just our rational minds. And there is a lot of science now coming out saying that, you know, there is even a second brain in the gut, you know, and that what we can know through our gut and our heart, you know, sometimes is more correct than what we can know consciously. And sometimes the things that come from our unconscious mind, which I believe, by the way, I think is, is an energy field. I don't, I don't think consciousness is a brain local phenomenon, personally. And I think there's a lot of evidence to support that. And I think that a lot of what comes, I mean, for me like when I wrote a couple of my books in a day. I mean, I don't feel like I wrote that stuff, to be honest with you. I feel like I downloaded that stuff.

Channeled it or. Yeah, downloaded somehow.

I don't want to say channel.

Right. It's a little.

Woo, woo.

There you go. But yeah, no, it's interesting because you just find that vein, whatever that flow is of information, and you probably percolated over time.

Yeah. And that's, and that's, by the way, that's one of the ways that I think we need to navigate this, you know, and we've got. You've got guys like Elon Musk saying that the only way to defeat AI is to, you know, drill a 2 millimeter hole in your cranium. And I'm like, nah, I'm cool, buddy.

You're a smart dude. But I think maybe there are other ways to get around this. And maybe there are latent powers inside humanity that are waiting to be untapped. You know, there are people who believe that we are a species with amnesia that actually has, you know, greater power than we have been led to believe. There's a tremendous amount of evidence to support that notion as well. You know, every day we're discovering how more complex we are, you know, when we discover things like epigenetics and how important the human genome is and how humans are capable of things that we once thought were impossible. Well, what is the upper limit of that? I would, I would say I want to explore that first before drilling holes in my cranium, personally.

Yeah, there's so much evidence for so much out there, but it's our jobs to collectively put that together with some kind of rationale, if we can find some. But, you know, I feel like that's what your roadmap is giving to folks. I mean, like I said earlier, I'm only 50 pages in Matt's a little further, but already, you know, it's like, oh, wow. Like, I even told Map. I'm like, holy crap. You know, we were like, I wish we could move this interview out a little further. We didn't want to ask. You just want to dive deep in on this book.

Like, now we can do a follow up. We can do a follow up if you guys want, because this is some of the people. There are very few people that are capable of having this conversation.

Right. That's interesting. You're right though, because it's hard to hold that with, like, family members, you know, even if they're in the same House might be watching Joe Rogan right along with me, you know, and.

Right, right, right.

Do you think more. I mean, obviously, I really feel like more people will. But what do you think's going to happen with the way that we're thinking and with these conditions that we've had?

It's hard to say, but it's hard to say, man. It depends on. I believe that there are some forces behind the scenes that have some kind of agenda.

Right.

I don't know what that agenda is. And maybe there are multiple forces. Right. But I think that's something that everybody kind of suspects. And really, everybody's a conspiracy theorist, whether they want to admit it or not. It just so happens that some conspiracy theories are more socially acceptable in the Overton window of the moment than others. So, for example, you know, the notion that Donald Trump was colluding with the Russians was perfectly acceptable in the Overton window, which is a very strong conspiracy theory. Oh, yeah, right. You know, but that was totally acceptable in common Overton window thinking for the longest time, like, you know, you could talk to the average person and you could talk about that and you wouldn't be seen as crazy. Right. But there are other conspiracy theories that are like, oh, no, no, no, no, you can't talk about that conspiracy theory because that one's not okay. It's got to have the seal of approval of whoever it is that's formulating this window of acceptable ideas. And I do think that there is definitely some deliberate attempt or many multiple deliberate attempts to formulate what that window is and to shape it. Now, I don't know who the players are. This is where we can only speculate. This is where I would distinguish myself from a lot of the people out there who are, you know, hardcore conspiracy theorist people. I like to deal with things that I can know and that I can verify. Like, if I'm looking at a Freedom of Information act, you know, declassified document, I'm like, okay. And I look at that and I say, well, maybe even that was declassified for purpose of making. Making us think something. But at least I've got a document. But then there are people out there who are like, you know, 100 certain that there are aliens on Saturn, they've got these machines and that they're doing all these things. And it's like. Like, that's a theory.

Yeah. Show me how to verify that. Right. So you've got to start with what can be verified, what can't be verified. But I do think that looking at the world through the lens of the notion that there are attempts to control things in certain directions, I think that's pretty axiomatic and obvious. Right. You know, there's no way that that's not possible when we have something called politics on this planet. Clearly, there are people out there trying to persuade your thinking in one direction or another. What they ultimately want from you is a whole nother question.

So the roadmap, it's called your roadmap to money for 2020. So with all of this information that we're talking about and all of these things that are going on, how does this information lead to money for the people that are reading it? And you don't have to give all the secrets up because the roadmap's free. So everybody just needs to go get it.

But.

But let's touch on that for a bit.

Well, it's free for now. We're putting it out in a print edition so people can get it, can download it for free for now.

Let's drop that link really quick because we do have a link. And thank you for offering it for free as well. Hustleandflowchart.com roadmap, you can grab this, what we're talking about right here.

And I love the title of this podcast, by the way.

It's awesome.

Cause it is hard out here to be a pimp. I just wanted to say. I just wanted to drop that line in. Some people are going to get the joke. Some people are not. Yeah. Anybody who's watched the movie, the way you make money from this is that, first off, you've got to understand that while things are changing like this, while this graph is this observable phenomenon, you have to understand that certain industries are going to be rendered irrelevant. That's the first thing that we really have to grasp. And that many industries will be rendered irrelevant in shorter time frames than they were before. So because everything is doubling or halving, depending on how you want to look at it, that means that the length of time that any particular technology is going to be relevant is going to have itself throughout time. So we're going to get to a point where you're going to come up with some really badass innovation. And then tomorrow it's going to be like, there's the next new thing. That's the landscape we're in. And a lot of people, they don't really realize, like, I don't want to mention the name of this guy. There's this guy who made this very, very interesting health device. And I want to be Very careful not to give any clues as to what this health device is because I don't want to embarrass him, but he doesn't understand that his device is going to be rendered obsolete very soon by somebody else who's going to come out with a device that does what his does, plus 10 other things 10 times better for half the price. And he's not planning his business based on that simple axiomatic fact. And if you're not thinking about the future of your business without that lens, you're in deep shit. You're in deep shit. I mean, that's just. That is the table stakes reality that you have to understand. So the second thing that we have to look at is, okay, well, if that's true, are there any industries that are going to tend to have longer staying power throughout this whole thing? And you guys just so happen to be in one of the industries that I think has a lot of staying power. And one of those industries is sources of information that are reliable. So if you can build a following. And people are like, hey, you know what? Every time I listen to Matt and Joe, I know that they're not bullshitting me, right? You know, they're asking people hard questions, right? You know, you guys aren't throwing me softballs, right? You guys are, you're digging in to this. You really want to dig in and you really want to understand you're not being unkind. Thank you. I appreciate that. Yeah, but you're, but you're also being, you know, rigorous and you're, you're asking difficult questions. And that is going to endear your audience to you and people are going to move to you because they're going to be like, hey, man, when I turn on Brian Stelter and I can tell that guy's obviously crazy, or when I'm watching, you know, I don't want to name. I mean, on the left and the right, in the full spectrum, you've got equal amounts of, full of shittery, right? You know, I'm not gonna, I'm not gonna say, you know, one side is better than the other. You know, they're, they're all pretty equally full of. However, in the alternative press, there are voices out there that people are starting to look to and they're like, hey, you know, when I tune in to these people, they tend to bullshit me a lot less. And they tend to be looking for better quality sources of information. I think that's going to have a lot of staying power for a very long time. And inside the Roadmap. I list a whole bunch of what I think are going to tend to be more perennial industries over the next several decades. Fortunately, you're in one of them.

Love it. I think you just also described the rise of Joe Rogan. The reason Joe Rogan has gotten so popular so quickly is that he just does not.

Not take.

And when people start talking about stuff that doesn't make sense to him, he has no problem calling on. Calling him on it and. And going deeper.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. I. I have to say, I mean, you know, it's very interesting. And I, you know, and I'm. I'm also open to the notion that maybe, you know, Rogan is not necessarily, you know, 100. You know what he says? He is right. Although I love the guy. I love the guy. I love the fact that here's a guy who will talk about a lot of stuff that I think is really badass topics to be talking about, like MMA fighting, psyched, and UFOs, and, you know, all sorts of random, you know, and also alternative history, alternative science. He's not afraid to bring those topics up and have very, very deep conversations. And he was also not afraid to challenge Jack Dorsey, you know, with their censorship.

And he did.

I think he did a wonderful job. Now, some people say that he was being a little too softball, you know, in that. In that interview. And I think it's probably some truth to that because. Yeah, yeah, in some parts it was like, come on, man, you could have. You could have been a little harder because Tim Pool. Tim Pool kind of had him dead to rights in so many cases. But I tell you what, the lady that Jack Dorsey brought on was such a brilliant spin doctor. You know, there was even. There was even one point, you know, where she was just like. She was like, okay, well, clearly I don't have anything to say to that. She says, you know what? Well, thank you for your feedback. You know, I was realizing, okay, you just. You handled that perfectly. That was like. Like you're a genius PR agent because you know that there's absolutely nothing you can say now in response to what he just said. But you also know that you're not going to do jack shit about what he just said, either.

You're better off staying right there.

You're better off staying right there. It was absolutely brilliant. So Rogan. Rogan is interesting, but I, you know, he's one of the ones I'll tune into because I tend to get better quality information from Joe's stuff than I will get from other locations.

Sure, for sure. And I mean, just the sort of investment implications of all of this stuff you're talking about are pretty huge as well. You were talking about something that, you know, I sort of vaguely heard about with the graphene, the sort of nanomaterial where they're going to have like, computers that you can like roll up and stick in your pocket and stuff. And that kind of stuff was just blowing my mind. But think about all the stuff that that technology is going to make obsolete and then also start to think about, okay, with that technology down the, you know, coming down the pipeline, is that going to make some of the stuff I'm doing obsolete? Where are the investment opportunities I can make that are going in that direction?

All right, see, this is beautiful. This is exactly where I want people to be thinking as a result of this. And see, here's what's awesome. So Matt and Joe, here's two very, very switched on, very intelligent dudes who are. You're not disconnected from the world, you're following trends. But you were reading about graphene and that was a surprise to you, right? And here's the thing. Graphene has been around for 20 fricking years. And graphene is but one tiny slice of the larger nanomaterial revolution. And just to let people understand how deep that gets, I mean, what I'm talking about here is the notion that the periodic table, what if there was a periodic table behind that? And what if you could peel that back and there was another one and another one, and another one and another one, and we have no idea how far back that goes? That's what the larger implications of the nanomaterial revolution is. When even graphene is a surprise to 99.999% of the population and even to super smart Swiss drawn dudes like you. Here's what I really want you to think about. What does that mean? That means that innovation is happening so fast that one of the most important advancements in the last two decades slipped by. You two very intelligent guys paying very close attention. Things are moving so fast that not even guys like you can be on top of everything that's going on. That's how freaking crazy this whole thing is. Yeah. And when people really start to figure that out, it's like, holy shit, I have to need to look at my life in a very, very different way. Because right now, up to this point, I've been in a bubble. And if I don't see my life in that context of the fast changing pace of innovation, I'm not really Living in reality.

Yeah.

And.

And if you're not living in that reality, you are gonna get surprised and you're gonna get surprised in some ways that are not ready. So the whole point of that document is to get people's minds ready. So it's like, look, I'm sorry, but this is the truth and this is what I think you need to do to prepare. And it's not going to be easy, but. But if you don't do it, good luck.

On that note, my God, my mind's blown. I want to dig in even deeper now. Like, once we wrap up here. We will. Or I will. I mean, this is.

I'm finished that thing tonight. Of course I didn't want to stop reading it to come do this interview. And I'm like, well, maybe I'll get some.

Maybe I should probably go talk to.

The guy who wrote the thing.

Oh, man.

Mark.

Yeah, this is. I mean, I'm going to say the link one more time. Just hustle and flowchart.com road map and what are some other things you're working on outside of this? So in 2020 and beyond, what's exciting you and what are things that we should maybe look out for from you?

So for me right now, I mean, I have a four phase plan that I'm working on to address a lot of these problems. I can only talk about a tiny fraction of it right now.

The fraction that I can talk about is educating people about this phenomenon to begin with. And then we are also growing a tribe of entrepreneurs that we're educating in this and educating in the ways of surviving in this new landscape. And when people go download that, they'll get to, you know, get onto a master class that I give for free to teach people about that. And if they want to get involved in that, they can as well. That's the part that I can reveal. There's a lot more and there's some heavier things that I've got planned that I, I would rather not telegraph because I would rather not have the world know about them until they happen.

Makes sense.

And, and the reason I gotta say one thing about this, this is going to become a real serious game real fast. And it already has. It already has. I mean, with most of us on lockdown right now and us realizing, holy, the government can actually do this to us just like that. We just woke up into a black mirror episode and it's real. I think a lot of people now are starting to realize the seriousness of this. And I think that the future of Humanity is in the hands of entrepreneurs. And it's going to take entrepreneurs taking matters into their own hands, not relying on governments, because governments are designed to be slow on purpose. And there were good reasons for governments to be slow. But those mechanisms are not going to work. The political systems of the past are not going to work. And what's going to have to happen is we're going to have to have a collective raising of human consciousness to survive this. Because think about this. I'll leave you with this one last thought. If we're only a few clock cycles away from being able to have 3D printed weapons of mass destruction, how many really unhappy people is it going to take to blow up the world? Yeah.

And how many people do we have on this planet?

Yeah, right, right. I mean, so we're.

Approaching 8 billion now. Right. So, you know, and I think that the only way that that's going to be addressed sufficiently is through entrepreneurs who give a shit about the future of their children and who take this seriously and who realize that this is not just about selfishness. And that by the way, prospering does not have to be separate from helping other people. Right. They are not mutually exclusive. And I think that when people can understand that, that they can help themselves prosper by helping other people and genuinely giving a shit about the future of this species and the future of other people, then I think we've got a fighting chance. And that's kind of what we're working on right now, is getting as many people moving down that path as we possibly can.

Love it. I'm just.

Wow.

And this is, this is definitely the most mind opening interview we've had on the. At least from my perspective. And it's going to cause a lot of. Of course. And it's, it's just the beginning. This is the iceberg, tip of the iceberg right here. So I can't wait to see where it's going to lead for all of us. And I think we're all going to think on a much deeper plane, deeper level. Gone are the days of surface level marketing, surface level business models, values, beliefs, all that stuff. So.

That's right.

A lot of reinvention happening.

Yeah, definitely one of my top favorite.

Interviews we've done so far. So thanks so much for, for just totally bringing it.

You're most welcome. And again, if you guys want to do that follow up, I'm. I'm very curious to see where those questions will go after you've read the whole thing.

So let's do it. Fun Appreciate your time, my man.

All right, fellas.

Great times. All right. See it.

Awesome. So I know you enjoyed that one because we really enjoyed having that conversation. I really enjoyed listening back to it to make some edits on it and excited to put that one back into the world. World and, and give it the spotlight once again. Now, I do want to remind you, we did take notes on that episode. It's like the full Cliffs Notes version of the discussion. If you go inside of our discord. Hustleandflowchart.com Discord there's a channel in there called Downloads. We're making the notes to this episode available for free instead of the Discord and also join the conversation. Let us know that you listen to this episode. Let us know if you enjoyed it. Let us know what you found interesting about about it. Just jump into one of the chats inside of the Discord. The general chat works fine and let us know. We love, love hearing about it and we love interacting with anybody listening to these episodes over there in Discord. So hustleandflowchart.com Discord get the notes, join the community, join the discussion. We'd love to have you. Lots of action over there. Lots of cool insights and info to be had from those groups. And once again, if you're not following us on Twitter, you're really missing out because Joe and I share and curate some of the coolest stuff on Twitter. Twitter. I am Matt Rwolf on Twitter. Joe is Joe Fear on Twitter. And then we've got our media brand, Hardfork Media, over on Twitter. You go follow those three accounts and you're gonna stay pretty on the pulse. You're gonna keep your finger on the pulse of what's going on in Web3. And when I say Web3, I'm talking cryptocurrencies, NFTs, the metaverse play to earn gaming, decentralized finance, all of those kinds of rabbit holes that Joe and I have been going down a lot lately. You're going to get a lot of that on our Twitter. We're going to curate a lot of the smartest minds. We have been curating a lot of the smartest minds in that space and, you know, sharing some thoughts of our own as they pop up as well. So make sure you're following us in those places as well. So hope you enjoyed this episode.

I know I did.

Once again, hustleandflowchart.com Discord Matt Rwolf on Twitter, Joe Fear on Twitter and Hardfork Media on Twitter. Thanks so much for tuning in and we will have another amazing rewind episode for you coming up this Tuesday. See you then.

Sa.