YouTube, Spotify, Fireside, and OnlyFans?

Thinking about the behavior of people is interesting here because it's like the starting point is Google or YouTube, and then it goes into other. And then it's the Spotify and Apple. Yeah, it's thinking of that, like, Journey, I think, is super important.

And I think what you just said there is, you know, a big reason why I think it's important to be everywhere. Like, have it on itunes, have it on Spotify, have it on YouTube, have it, you know, anywhere you can find the content. Have your content available there. Because even these trends might shift over time, so might as well be where everybody's looking.

This is an intro. Intro, intro, intro.

Hustle and Float Shark with your boy, my boy, Matt Wolf and Joe Fear.

Hey, what up, my friend? Not much.

Pumping it up from second one on the podcast. This is. This is one of them solo shows or duet shows?

Duets, yes.

Yeah.

Therapy session. Are we gonna call it that again?

Why not?

We stopped calling them therapy sessions, and then people started going. I really liked how you titled those therapy sessions. That was a perfect name for them.

That's the power of the branding, right? Y. Yeah. I mean, we've been talking a lot about branding in the last couple weeks. So on these Tuesday episodes that go live, or if you're listening to it on a Saturday, it's this episode. It's the first of the two during the week that come out.

It's also another first.

What's the first of it? Oh, yes.

These beautiful mic arms that we're now using. So if you're watching us on the YouTubes, you will notice that our setup is a little bit different. We got some cool mic arms now. Next thing we got to do is get rid of these big, old bulky headphones.

That's the next Anthony Trucks. Yeah. He was telling us about these in ear monitors that I think we're going to peek into. I don't know the name of them, but when we get them, we'll show them. Yeah, we want to be hands free. Yeah, hands free, cord free. I mean, all that stuff.

Stress free.

Stress free.

Work free.

Work free. A lot of happiness, a lot of fun. Yeah. So, yeah, on that point. All right, well, let's chat about what we're thinking about, huh? Yeah.

So this is an episode for those of you thinking about podcast and YouTube. And those of you that aren't thinking about podcasting and YouTube also listen in because we're tell you why you should be thinking about podcast and YouTube. But this episode, we're going to kind of COVID some things that have been happening in the world of content creation.

Yeah, let's just call.

I think that's like a good sort of bucket term, content creation. Right. We're going to talk about podcasts, YouTube video, that kind of stuff. Only fans, you know, the whole game.

That just got people's attention. Yeah.

Before we do, let's tell them about the flow notes.

The flow notes are important for this one. So you are going to want these because we'll be talking about a lot of where the puck is going in our eyes, a lot of trends that we see happening, some stats that we'll want to show you, maybe making a couple predictions. Some predictions and action steps for you. So get the flow notes. They are ready for you right now. If you go to flowchart group.com you only have two weeks, and that's quite a bit of time. If two weeks of this episode going live to get them for free. After that, they go into our epic vault. That's the door closed.

Oh, I thought that was an explosion.

No, but maybe that's what happens in the vault. I don't know.

We explode the notes.

That would be weird.

That would be.

Don't explode. That was the sound of the big metal door slamming. But it's not slammed yet. It's still open. If it's within two weeks, go to flowchart group.com, plug your email address, and it also gives you access to our Facebook group. But make sure you plug in your email address. That's how you get the flow notes.

Yes. And if you aren't watching this on YouTube right now, go to hustleandflowchart TV and subscribe over on YouTube because we are putting a ton of effort into YouTube and we're gonna talk about why we're putting a ton of effort into YouTube in this episode. But we would love it if you would follow us over there and give us feedback and let us know how we can improve the YouTube channel. Cause we're making it for you guys.

Yeah, it's not for us.

Yeah. And then one last thing.

What else?

We got a sponsor.

We do have a beautiful sponsor. They're fabulous. And they are right here. Yo. Hey.

Hi. You're here.

I think I would like some more organic traffic for our website.

Who wouldn't?

Yeah, I mean, we have a. We have a lot of traffic. Do you think we want more, or do you think everyone else would. Would deserve or would like more for their websites as well?

Can we do it for free?

Is this a rhetorical question? Yes, it's A rhetorical question. Dang. Right?

Yeah. Well, I want to know if I can do it for free.

Well, you can. Now, why is that, Mr. Matt?

Because if you go over to ahrefs.comawt, they have a new cool tool. Well, it's a cool tool.

Yeah.

Called ah. Ahrefs Webmaster Tools. And it's over@ahrefs.com awt and it does a lot of the same stuff that the full fledged Ahrefs does, but it's a free version.

So they basically made this tool, webmaster tools ahrefs.com AWT it's gonna monitor your SEO health of your website. So you can make sure, hey, are there any issues I should be looking at? It basically scans your site. There's like over a hundred typical SEO issues that would like flag Google and all the search engines. Well, it's going to tell you what's wrong with your site. So you know. Exactly. And actually the advice on how to fix those things, that's pretty dang important. That's. I mean, SEO still is our number one new traffic driver for our websites. Really? That's across all of our websites. That's how people discover us. So you might as well have a little read a finger on the poles of the health of your website. And the SEO, it also does backlink monitoring, all these other search traffic terms and things. It's free, though.

It's free. Yeah. Monitor your SEO health, backlinks and keywords for free over at ahrefs.com awt. That rhymed.

All right, so today.

At the time of this recording, it's the day that we've also done a pod hacker call.

Done did it.

Done did it. And it was a two hour epic call. We do these twice a month with our pod hacker community, our customers. There we go. We also do stream those. So it's something to pay attention to on Podhacker on YouTube. That's another channel. So if you want to go follow that, if you want to go like granular on the tactics and all that stuff around podcasting, content marketing, kind of the stuff we're going to be talking about in this episode. Yeah, that's where you want to go find that. But we do this twice a month as part of Pod Hacker. And then the other. Or actually, sorry, we do the open office hours calls which we recorded once per month and the other one about two weeks separated, is an expert that we bring on. Yes.

And those are only available for pod hacker members.

Those are customer only because we're going deep on the strategies.

Yeah.

So that's what we're gonna. It's kind of like we're like, hey, there's a lot of cool things that we're noticing in the stats and the trends. And we have actually some graphs pulled up right now that we want to share. And it. It would help everyone.

Yeah.

So, yeah.

And if you're watching the YouTube video, I'm sure these, these screenshots and stats will be overlaid as we talk about them. But. So let. Let's dive into why we've put some focus on YouTube based on data. Right. Like, we've been putting our focus on YouTube based on sort of gut feel of where the market's going, but now we actually have data in front of us to put to it to sort of further explain why YouTube is the way to go right now.

It explains our gut reactions.

Yes.

I feel like we've been pretty good at the trends or at least predicting of where we see things headed.

Yeah. Over the years, especially in the podcast sort of creator space, it helps to.

Be super tapped in and be connected to a lot of other podcasters who are sharing what's working, what's not. And also just entrepreneurs, business owners, thought leaders. It's, I guess, a benefit obviously, of having a podcast. But yeah, I feel like the gut reaction is typically pretty accurate. I think our. And just to go a little therapy for a hot second is because it's part of the show. We just haven't believed in ourself, I feel like, or our gut reactions until now. Like, we have seen a lot of these trends or we've heard of bitcoin where it's like, we hear something that's probably not mainstream. It's kind of like in the dark alley. Let's whisper about this bitcoin thing because that's a story from back in. Whenever in Austin, we did not get in a bitcoin when it was like $50 a coin.

Had we done that, we probably would have sold when it like doubled in value anyway.

We were like, hey, made $100.

Wow.

So. But yeah, I feel like we have some pretty good gut reactions because we're consuming so much. You consume a. Outside of the podcast and I feel like we both kind of keep an eye on trends, but up until now, we haven't really. I guess we haven't really realized, like, man, we have not really been full in. Yeah.

Haven't had the balls to predict things.

Publicly or take action. No, I'm saying more take action. And like, for ourselves is like, man, Going in on the brand, like, now we're, like, willing to invest a crap ton of money. Yeah, yeah. But know that there's a. There's a lot of benefits of doing that, and that's where we're going with these.

Sort of a callback to the last therapy session episode that we did of just like, you know, we had this bigger picture media brand in mind back in 2013, and we never really shot for it the way we thought we could. And now we're kind of going, all right, let's just go all in on this. Go broke, you know, make it to where we want to go or go broke trying. Right?

Yeah. I mean, like, let's be honest, it's a lot worse things can happen. Yeah. So I'm pretty sure there's a. There's a lot of fallback options if we lean into. Into where we truly do feel things are headed. But now we're being validified by stats. And over the years, I'm just like, yeah, it's interesting.

Is it validified a word?

Validify? I think so. I'm going to make it one, but I'm pretty sure it is. Jacob, you can fact check, please. If I'm wrong, that's fine. Make it wrong.

Joke.

I get that a lot. All right, so let's get into it. What do we talk about, Matt?

Yeah, so there's some Edison research stats that we were looking at recently, and we were talking about them with our pod hacker audience earlier today as of this record, and we were sort of riffing on it in real time because this is really fascinating. So I want to start actually with this second screenshot here. And this survey question that Edison asked was, on which service do you most often listen to podcasts? And this survey was from Q2 of 2021. So, I mean, now, like, Yeah, a.

Month ago or something. Yeah.

And so the top three answers of where people listen to podcasts, number one was Spotify, number two was Apple Podcasts, and number three, YouTube.

Yube Tube. Is that what you call it?

Actually, my kids call it Yubtub. They always go, dad, can we watch Yubtub?

Yubtub.

They know it's called YouTube. They just like to call it Yubtub.

I like Yubtub.

Yeah. So Yubtub is the third most. Is the place that people watch podcasts the third most. I think the Spotify thing is fascinating to me.

The past Apple podcasts, well, that was a trend that we've been eyeing for a while, and we keep our eyes on the stats of course, all these. These things. Edison Research, by the way, is like, I think probably the most trusted research organization you see him mentioned a lot in the podcast space. I think they touch a lot of other spaces as well. But that's where this data is coming from. So if you want to look up Edison Research, you can deep dive on your own. Maybe we'll link them up too.

But, yeah, I think it looks like this is from, like, the podcast consumer.

Report, report of something. They put them out every quarter, so that's a good way to tap in and kind of see where we're looking at things. Yeah.

But it's fascinating that Spotify sort of outpaced Apple as far as, like, which platform people listen to podcasts on. And I think it kind of makes sense, right, Because I think that the sort of gateway drug to listening to podcasts were shows like Joe Rogan, Dax Shepard, you know, the other celebrities.

Call her Daddy.

Yeah, call her Daddy. All of these other shows were sort of the gateway that got people into listening to podcasts. And then Spotify went, oh, this is what people are listening to. Let's make it exclusive to us. And then once you're listening to some of those podcasts on Spotify, you don't really want to go switch to a different platform to listen to different podcasts. You just want to listen to them all on the same platform. So you just stick with Spotify. Pretty brilliant strategy for that.

I've moved to Spotify. I'm going to say it's still not the best ui. The experience going through there. I have a hell of a time trying to find. I was researching for BJ Fogg the other day, listen to Armchair Expert, and then sometime later in the day, I wanted to listen to some, like Rock Bob Seeger and. But. Or in some other music. But I was like, how do I just go back to that podcast? And it was really tough. I had to, like, research it. I'm like, research it with my. I'm like, it was kind of annoying. So I think they should improve a lot. But you're right, I think that the attention and the fact that everyone's just kind of like, these exclusive shows are probably a big part of it. Yeah.

One thing that, I mean, it's probably not an annoyance to most people, but it bugs me is that, like, the Spotify app on your computer, you can't do the same things that you can do with the Spotify app on your phone. So, like, I can go and make a playlist of podcast episodes. I want to listen to on my phone. I could go and say, okay, I want to listen to this Dax Shepard episode with BJ Fogg, and then I want to listen to Joe Rogan interview Elon Musk, and then kind of queue up some podcasts and just sort of let my podcast player listen to him in order. I can do that on the Spotify app. You can't do that in the Spotify app on your computer. I didn't know that you can't create podcast playlists. You can create music playlists, but not podcast playlists. The app you could create podcast playlists, which. The reason it's annoying to me is I usually find out about new podcast episodes that I want to listen to when I'm at my computer, not when I'm at my phone. Right. So now, like, I might be reading a blog post and somebody will say, this was a really good episode. Everybody should listen to it. I can. I would want to just open up Spotify on my computer, find that episode, and add it to a playlist, But I can't do that. I have to pull out my phone, find that episode on my phone, and add it to a playlist. And that little thing is just sort of bugs me a little bit. I mean, it doesn't bug me enough to not use Spotify, but it bugs me.

So are you using Spotify over Overcast now?

No, no. I use Spotify because I have to for Joe Rogan and Dax, and I love those two shows, but almost every other podcast I listen to, I still go to Overcast.

So, I mean, we've been looking at this for years. It feels like maybe a couple years now, this whole thing of Spotify and Apple, and obviously Apple's been, like, the big behemoth for. Since podcasts started, they basically put it on the map, but then Spotify came through and just started freaking investing in everything. Podcasts, and it's been interesting to watch some of these graphs. Like, I think it's Edison Research, or maybe people will, like, visualize Edison Research's research findings. And it's like the globe. I'm picturing, like, all the countries on the map right now, and they've slowly been turning green, like, green for Spotify, the purple for Apple, and it's like us. The US Was like, the holdout.

Yeah, they're still holding out on Apple.

I mean, it might still be, but it seemed like all the other countries are slowly going green. And then the takeover. I don't know where it's at with us specifically. There's probably some other stats we could dig into.

Yeah, we just don't have them in front of us right now.

But it just shows like, man, they've been on a war path.

Yeah. Spotify has taken over for the podcasting world. But also, I didn't realize until seeing this graph that that many people listen to podcasts on YouTube.

Right.

It was the third most. The third place that most people listen to on. So when Spotify, 18% Apple and then YouTube, 18% of people polled prefer to listen to podcasts on YouTube. Right. So we've been putting a lot of focus on YouTube because we kind of feel that discoverability on most of the podcast platforms is really difficult. But YouTube has some great discoverability algorithms built in. Right. So, like, if we had BJ Fogg on the show and BJ Fogg has a Ted Talk, our show could get recommended in YouTube. Our episode could get recommended next to the Ted Talk. So if you just watch the Ted Talk and you want to dive deeper with BJ, our episode could potentially show up in that little right column on YouTube as one of the other recommended videos. Right.

That might be a strategy that we're going to use for BJ specifically. Yeah. That was actually a strategy or an idea for the tiling from Tano, who is a member in Pod Hacker Super Active. So thank you, Tano.

Yeah.

Because we'll see if that actually works. Because, yeah, there's so much opportunity to leverage other people's work and then show up as a recommended video.

And there's not really anything like that in the podcast world. I know there's platforms that are trying to do that kind of thing, but, like, even in Spotify, like, it's not very good at recommending other podcasts based on what you just listen to.

It's trying to. Yeah. Like on the home screen. I think it recommends well for me, it's Joe Rogan a lot. Armchair. It could be, because those are podcasts I love. Yeah. So I'd be curious to, like, what is Spot. Spotify. I was going to say Spodcast. That's kind of cool. But, like, I wonder what Spotify is recommending as a whole. Like, people that don't listen to maybe an exclusive show from Spotify.

Maybe they're not recommending podcasts at all.

Exactly. Yeah. I wonder if they're just pushing their own stuff, you know, right now. And they might be.

I think if you have a tendency to only listen to music on Spotify, they only recommend music. I don't know, though, because I listen to Both. And I get recommendations for both. I just don't feel like the recommendations I get are, like, real dialed into what I've actually listened to in the past on Spotify. But YouTube is just like, oh, they like watching videos about BJ Fogg. Here's more videos about BJ Fog. And ours is right there in the mix.

It's so cool. Yeah. And that's where that's. That's literally the reason why we're putting so much effort into YouTube. Yeah.

Discoverability.

Yeah. But what's to say that just Spotify can't do the same? Like, I genuinely think that Spotify is going to become the audio version of YouTube, where it will, over time become more of a searchable thing. Recommended thing there. You know, there's probably a lot of. I know that there's ads that you can run. I don't know if we'll get into that in one of these graphics. But, you know, they already have ads on Spotify, but for a podcaster, the targeting is not too great.

Yeah.

Like, it's still very broad, but. And there's some. There's some limitations for certain people. I think you have to have a $250 budget per month, minimum. But I mean, it's worth a shot. But that just shows you they're. They're creeping their way there. They're investing in it.

It's 100% their goal, the YouTube of audio. Right. Like, they built Anchor, which makes it really easy to publish podcasts on their platform. Their platform is free. You can either pay a premium amount or you don't have to pay. And it's all ad supported. That's exactly YouTube's model.

And they have Anchor. Yeah. To basically put more creators into the platform.

Yeah, that was the first thing I said. Yeah. Like, Anchor is designed to basically make it easy to get the podcast online.

Machine, you know, and then.

Yeah, and then. And then Spotify plays them for free. And then they're gonna inject ads into them unless you pay their premium. And then they don't put the ads in it. It's like identical to YouTube, just without the video. And even with, like, Joe Rogan, they've even incorporated video. It's not like, you know, site wide. I think Joe Rogan's the only one I know of that has video at.

The moment, but let's just say that's not gonna roll out later.

So I wouldn't be surprised if they actually even start chasing after some of YouTube's people. Actually, that's already started to happen. There's actually been other YouTubers who focus on YouTube that have gotten pulled into Spotify instead.

Well, obviously Joe Rogan, because he had a big, big YouTube following. That's what he was always streaming. Who's someone else?

I don't remember any of their names for some reason. I remember hearing like David Dobrik's name thrown around at one point about how he was offered like a Spotify exclusive deal. I don't know if it's true or not, but there's been some other YouTubers that focus on YouTube that I've heard have tried to have been offered the opportunity to move over to Spotify with their video stuff from YouTube.

I'd be curious to like, see how that translates over from like a creator type of thing on YouTube where the format is probably wildly different.

Well, there's no commenting, there's no interaction. There's no like community engagement on Spotify, which I think is a big barrier for, for YouTube creators to come over, is they, I think they want to be more interactive with their communities.

Yeah, well, that might change because I know there was something in the news. Won't get into it now, but it seems like they're, they're integrating ways to make money through Spotify. You know, do like premium content. That's something Apple was experimenting with as well, but have kind of failed with their subscriptions. It's been sloppy and it's kind of like a mess from what we've heard just from reading things. But yeah, so, yeah, there's interesting things. Yeah.

And so here's another, here's another thing that came from the poll. Suppose you heard about a podcast that you were interested in listening to but didn't know where to find it. Where would you go to try to find it? The number one response, YouTube. Number two, Google. Spotify. Let's see.

I can't read.

So 4% for Spotify, Apple was what, 2%? And then there's a big old slice.

For other 12 for other. And 2%. Don't know. But 50% was YouTube and 30% Google. Yeah. So like, I mean, I don't know if it's just me, but I felt like YouTube wasn't always psychologically the place to go to, to search. I mean, for how to. Maybe more so there. But now I feel like it's just going there for everything almost. You know, like, obviously if you're looking for a granular, like little bit, you know, an article or something, but there's so like, it's just that as a search engine, Seems to be what people want. The visual, the back and forth. It's more engaging. There's a community, there's. It still gives you what you want.

Here's the thing too, though, is that Google and YouTube are, you know, the same company, Right. So when you Google something on the search engine, most of the time you actually see YouTube videos as some of the results.

True that.

Right? So, like, literally 70% is, like how people discover new podcasts. Or when they hear about a podcast and they go search it out, 70%.

Are going, Bro, that's 50 plus 30.

50. I thought that was 20. I can't read more. So 80% of people are going to one of the Google platforms to find it. And so, yeah, YouTube just makes sense in that context.

Just checking my eyes, I'm like, yeah, it is 30. That's crazy. I mean. Well, pause there for a sec. Look at Apple. 2%. Yeah, Apple is 2 fricking percent.

So if somebody told you about the Hustle and Flowchart podcast, you're going to Apple and you're like, I'm gonna go hunt this podcast down. Only 2% of people are gonna go to Apple to hunt it down.

So think about that when you're mentioning your podcast or even anything with your brand. And we're not just talking podcasts, but this is podcast. But let's be honest, it's like anything with content.

Yeah.

Shout it out on YouTube or make sure you have it on YouTube in some format, at least for the discoverability of it. Like, it could be just snippets of your content. Maybe you don't want to do the full thing and go crazy, but, like, have some. I know Brian Bogert was on here recently and he was talking about, you know, two to three minute clips. And obviously you can go longer. We go longer. But, like, as little, like, quick hit things that get people's attention and, like, bring you. Or bring. Yeah, bring you in, like, further into their journey. Why not show up there and really craft a message or look at your content? Like, oh, that'd be a really good clip. That's interesting. Pull a call to action so they can go to the next best thing.

Yeah, well, I would say at the very, very, very least, go get, like, repurposed IO where every podcast episode that you release, it automatically puts it on YouTube. I mean, it'll be a static image.

Better. Nothing.

And, you know, maybe some, like, waveforms and you could just listen to the audio, but at least your podcast will show up. If somebody's searching for your Podcast on the place that 80% of people are searching for podcasts.

That's wild. And I just. It's. It's crazy that Apple is 2%. That's like, kind of. I mean, let's be honest, Spotify is only 4%. So. And we just looked at the graph above, which is showing that Spotify is where people listen mainly, and then what, 3% less than that go to podcasts on Apple, Apple podcasts. So it's. It's. Thinking about the behavior of people is interesting here because it's like the starting point is Google or YouTube or YouTube and Google in that order. And then it goes into other. And then it's the Spotify and Apple. So it's. It's like the discovery is happening on YouTube and Google. And then the second, like, when people are really interested, then they seek you out or they find you or link to you somehow. Or link you to Spotify. Yeah, primarily. Or Apple. Yeah, it's thinking of that, like, journey, I think, is super important.

And I think what you just said, there is, you know, a big reason why I think it's important to be everywhere, like, have it on itunes, have it on Spotify, have it on YouTube, have it, you know, anywhere you can find the content. Have your content available there. Because even these trends might shift over time, so might as well be where everybody's looking. And then this final one here, reasons for listening to or watching podcasts most often on YouTube.

I'm gonna blow it up a little bit for us.

Try again.

Click it. There it is. There we go.

Okay. Yeah. So reasons for listening to or watching podcasts most often on YouTube. Number one reason. You already use YouTube to listen to or watch other types of content.

Right. Go where they're at already for their behavior. Right.

This is the same reason that we've never moved away from having Facebook groups. Right. We have the pod Hacker Facebook group, the Hustler Facebook group.

Even though we don't like it so.

Much, we're not huge f of being on Facebook all the time. But that's where everybody's hanging out.

Yeah, everybody's on Facebook.

Yeah. So you're basically saying you're basically putting your content in line with where the audience is hanging out. Right. So YouTube is where audiences are hanging out. And if you want them to just kind of discover your podcast, you've got to have the podcast on the platform where they're already hanging out.

Yeah. I mean, so what else we got? That's 41% of people say the reason why they're watching podcasts most often on YouTube is because they're already there and that actually just got recommended from somewhere else and they're going down the YouTube rabbit hole with you.

And I saw something recently that, like, Joe Rogan, I don't know the exact percentage, so I'm just going to pull it out of my butt. But, like, Joe Rogan lost like 20% of his listenership when he moved over to Spotify. It was a big percentage. I don't know the exact number. That explains it. Right. Like, the reason I watched so much Joe Rogan a year ago was it kept on getting recommended to me on YouTube. Well, you don't get it recommended as much. I still get the clips every once in a while, but not nearly as much.

Yeah, you're right. I get clips. Still not as much. Well, here's what's interesting, what you just said. So number one reason 41% of people on this whole thing here said that. Is it a percentage? Actually, it's not percentage because that does not add up to 100. So let's say the number one. Well, 41 plus 39 plus 35 plus 27.

Yeah. So percentage.

That's not percentage.

But what does this say? Percentage ranking item in top three. I don't even know what that means.

So the way I'm gonna decipher this is the number one thing is what you just said, which is true based off this graph. You could decipher this yourself if you're watching this on YouTub. So they're already on the platform. That's. Most people said that. The second thing is that they're listening to podcasts because they're free. Yeah. So to your point, Joe Rogan. Yeah, he ain't free anymore. On YouTube, there's clips, but those are little teasers. They're there to grab you. And because it's called action at the end of every one of those clips now, it says, hey, I'm over on Spotify now. Go check me over there.

You can listen on Spotify for free.

Which is free there. Yeah.

But interesting.

Yeah, disconnect. It's almost like. But there is this. I don't know, I feel like a lot of people are like, what the fuck? Yeah, you're over there. You know, like, if I'm.

If I'm hanging out watching content on one platform and your call to action is to leave this platform and check out my content on a different platform.

It'S like another barrier.

Yeah, it's just a barrier to moving over across to the Other platform.

Yeah.

The third response was you prefer listening to podcasts that include video.

That's interesting. Actually. I was very surprised by that one. Yeah. I mean, because we always think we're like really, like people just want to see like talking heads, you know, people just chatting back and forth with each other or with themselves maybe, but I guess they do. I mean, that's the top third thing.

I found myself doing that like I remember I've watched, I've definitely watched full on three hours of Joe Rogan in the past where I just watched the whole video. I've definitely watched like a full on Colin and Samir video where they talk for 45 minutes on an interview. So I mean, I find myself doing.

That Russell Brand, like I'm thinking of him because he gets recommended a lot. He has interviews and they're not that polished, but it's like back forth, cut back forth. You know, we're using Riverside FM now, so it's like you could just use something like that very simply to do. And I think they even have editing in there.

They do, yeah. We haven't tried any of those features, but they do. Yeah.

But like you could totally just pull it off doing that. And guys like Russell Brand, I mean, he'll make solo episode content as well or just content for YouTube. It's just him sitting in the same chair in the same little corner of his house. And like the thing gets. Obviously it's Russell Brand, but it gets a lot of attention. I think he's growing because he's consistently putting out content like every day. Yeah. And he's literally just cranking up the camera, the setup and just talking.

Yeah.

And I'm sure it gets published partially on Luminary or wherever. He's publishing his podcast too. Yeah. Again, it's not fancy. It's just him talking to camera.

Yeah.

Showing up on the platform. So.

Yeah, no, this is all very fascinating information. If you're watching on YouTube, we will overlay these images. Was there anything else you wanted to dive into on this one?

It's I think the topic of really thinking of platforms. I don't know, I forget how much we've talked about that in the last couple episodes because we've been talking a lot about branding and kind of like where we see our brand going, but also where we see marketing in general and engagement with content online, you know, being. Being so much in the direct response marketing area or Internet marketing. This is where we got our roots. You know, our roots started there. But we definitely see that, you know, there's, there's other things to pay attention to and how to get attention and keep attention. And I feel like a lot of that goes into platforms, like the power platforms. We already talked about YouTube.

Yeah, we talked about the platform thing last week about like skillshare and like.

Talked a little about that and like.

Getting your content in other platforms and being a little less focused on like the direct response element.

Right.

Like, you know, listen to last week's episode that came out last Tuesday because we went, we went pretty deep on like where we see content and putting our information in like a premium manner online in that episode, pretty in some.

Depth and there's reasons for. And so a couple things here. There is another piece of news here that is interesting, but before saying that, you know, it's another audio based chatting app. In this case, it's Fireside. This is a Mark Cuban new app and something he's putting out there. And he was just at podcast movement, basically said. What did he say? Podcasts are old, tired and beat up. Adding that there's only one way to monetize bullshit. By lying your ass off to secure sponsorships.

Yeah, well, Mark Cuban's a little biased, first of all, because he's got this tool fire side, which is, I love.

Mark Cuban and all that, but that's obviously a bullshit statement.

Yeah, no, it's a very, it's a, it's a very like, I have the solution for you statement. Right. Like podcasts are dead. You don't, don't pay attention to them. The answer is Fireside.

It's divisive. He's. Yeah, and he's very biased. So. But I just wanted to bring that up because that did make the news that actually Jacob on our team was over there in podcast movement in Nashville and saw that and he was like, it was total bs.

Yeah. Yeah.

So sorry for all my bss that you can thank Jacob because he put that in my. But no, just the statement, like when it's a blanket statement like that, A, obviously is an agenda. B, it's BS because you've heard us talk about it and we have all the stats to prove it. So does pretty much any other marketer or podcaster. But back to the whole audio chat thing. Clubhouse. We were hot on Clubhouse, or at least we seemed hot on Clubhouse for a couple weeks. For a couple weeks. I mean, a little bit. And you know, the environment changed there and you know, going on Clubhouse, I didn't see a lot of friends on there anymore. No, some people probably moved on. But the beauty of these things is that you can use these platforms as a discovery engine. It's not like you need to live on these platforms, but it's like, maybe Fireside is great. I don't know. We've never used it, never seen anything about it, but it could be something that can just, like, maybe light a spark and like, pass the right people your way as, like a little discovery engine.

So anybody who's listening that might, like, this is the first time you're actually hearing about Fireside. Basically what it is is it's like a clubhouse kind of group room where you have people up on stage and you have listeners in the room, and. And it's like a group communication tool. One of the major differences is it's designed to actually record these conversations, and then these conversations could be shared as podcast episodes. They actually partnered with Libsyn, which is the same company that hosts this podcast, to make it so that when you record these group conversations, they automatically get fed into your hosting company and your podcast just kind of rolls out. Right. So, like, that's. That's what Fireside is. I have some strong opinions. We've definitely debated a little bit, but I don't think these sort of social chat apps are ever gonna be like, a massive thing. I think there's kind of a fad that are gonna die out, and I think Fireside's gonna be right there with it.

It'd be interesting to hear about, like, from folks like Steve Olsher, who runs a big group on Clubhouse for Podcast magazine. I mean, go check it out. Join it. It's great. It's a very interesting model and how he's, you know, shout out to Steve. What up, dog? He's, you know, he's craz. Created like a machine out of that and has other people, like, at certain times. I don't know if he's still doing it, but I think so. Where it's like he actually has other podcasters in place to hold these shows at different timings on that platform. And he has this club that essentially helps grow the brand. And it's all, you know, feeding Podcast magazine and that brand. It's brilliant.

Yeah.

So I'd be curious to hear, like, someone from him. Like him. And also Deb Cole. Yeah, she's been on. We did a YouTube, like, 30 minute thing with her. And she's deep on all this kind of stuff, too.

Gary Henderson, too.

Henderson, too.

There's another one we went deep on Clubhouse with.

I'd be curious to revisit this. Maybe in the next couple months or so.

Where do you see it going? I want to know your opinion.

I see it kind of like what I just said. I agree with you that it's not going to be the thing that most people are going to latch onto because of all the reasons that we talked about. It's super time consuming. Unless you love that. I think it's diluted. Like you said, it's completely changed since we joined.

Well, that's Clubhouse. I want to know what you think.

Fireside. I don't know enough about it to honest. Like, we. We've never used it. But, like, in terms of it, honestly, I don't know what the. What the. The selling points are. I mean, do you know more details?

Well, no, but I just. I know that if it's similar to Clubhouse, like a social chat app, I don't believe it's going to pan out. Well, I think it. I think they'll probably pivot a few times to try to find out what the thing actually is that they're trying to do. Because right now it sounds like they're trying to be Clubhouse, but with recording and hosting, and I think if that's what they're trying to do, I don't think it's gonna work. Cause I don't think people want to go and listen back to old Clubhouse conversations. Essentially.

I could see Fireside being used for maybe events like bringing on, like, a celebrity type where you have maybe like a group kind of. It's almost like almost taking a podcast live, you know, like, and this is. I see it being used more that way, where you can bring in, like a core group of people, maybe an audience around you, you know, maybe charge for it. I'm not sure if you do all this stuff. I'm just theorizing is like, you know, you have a celebrity, a big name, and you do want to make it a podcast, but you also want to maybe have some Q and A in there, Interact. Or maybe you want to have a special event with your people. Then you say, hey, we're doing a special over here.

There's a lot of shit that I just don't know about Fireside.

Here's my other red flag that is a red flag without ever using Fireside is that they've already been soliciting the creators on Fireside to be investors, which tells me they're not getting a lot of traction from the Silicon Valley investors. They're not getting a lot of traction from the people that are investing in things like this. So that this is just reading between the lines. I don't know if there's any sort of merit to this. I should probably get rid of this stupid soft language and just say what I think you should.

But I'm waiting.

But I think. I think the fact that they're going out trying to get the people who are using Fireside to invest in it instead of going after the normal Silicon Valley investors and the venture capitalists and stuff is telling. It's telling me that the venture capitalists see it as a copy of Clubhouse and a Me Too product and they don't want to get behind it. So I think that's a huge red flag as well.

Yeah, and I heard about that. So we got approached by them a couple times through email. I'm sure it was a solicited email to. To tons of podcasters. I doubt we're special, but we did get the email and we scheduled a call at first and then they had to reschedule and then all this and we're just like, whatever, we don't have the time right now. And because a lot of those red flags started popping up because we started hearing how creators are starting to get solicited without even really knowing details about the project. Big red flag. Clubhouse on the other end, I know, is backed with a bunch of bigger name investors.

We know Naval's behind it.

They've been public about that. You know. Yeah, there's a lot of Silicon Valley money behind it. Not saying that that's gonna make it a success. That doesn't guarantee it at all. And these are all startups. I mean, they're gonna pivot like crazy. So. Yeah, I mean, I totally agree. Like Fireside. Same with Clubhouse and maybe Green Room. It's interesting. I mean, I don't know what Spotify sees in Green Room. Cause that definitely fell off the radar within like a week of it.

And then Twitter was doing something that I don't think is in Twitter anymore.

I think it is actually, but it's selective. And again though, they're not picking up major steam. So I agree that it's never gonna be like a major thing that people are gonna pay attention to. But I do see it as a place that it's just another place to get discovered. And if you choose that to be your medium, like maybe you just wanna engage with people and have more like a talk show kind of podcast. Maybe that's a place for you.

Yeah. So I think here's my opinion on platforms like that. I think when platforms like that come out, there's a lot of buzz created around them. So I think it's a smart tactic, a smart strategy to capitalize on that buzz. Right. We got on Clubhouse pretty much as soon as we were made aware of Clubhouse mid December. Yeah, like, you know, it'd been around for a while, but as soon as we became aware of it, we figured out how to get on the platform. We got on the platform and we were on there pretty much every day and interacting. And we saw a spike in growth in our podcast over time. We didn't see the same sort of growth numbers by doing these live things, but we did see a spike in the beginning. So I think it is powerful to go, ooh, this one. It may not be the future, it may not be the thing that everybody's super excited about, but you know what, a lot of people are talking about it, so let's go use it while people are talking about it and get the growth while we can.

Yeah, yeah. It's interesting because like when you were just saying that the thing I loved about Clubhouse when you're using it is the engagement, like the interactions with people and you can get very direct with people. It didn't feel like you had to spend a ton of time with people. Like if you're taking questions, let's say, and you're on stage. I liked that I even heard Billie.

Jean on there go. That was a stupid question. Next. That's such a Billie Jean thing to do though.

I know, Good for him. I mean, that's him. But I enjoyed the fact that we could answer a bunch of questions. It helped us kind of market research what people were interested in, what people are having trouble with, and gave us ideas to probably make more content around as well. Time sucked though, for us at least. It just didn't make sense to always be in there because it demanded a ton of time. And I know for us that just wasn't going to fly, nor we did did we want it to happen that way. But I genuinely think that people do want connection and I mean there's a lot of technology that separates our connections and doesn't allow for like two way conversation. I think these help if that's your thing. But again, there's a massive downside, I feel like that it can consume your time, it can consume your, your priorities that you thought like it was destroying schedules, man. Like I remember that when it was starting. I don't know, maybe people have just figured out how to use it better.

Yeah, I don't know.

Like that was. That's why we bailed out a lot.

I think one of the smartest things I saw happening on Clubhouse was people using it to pitch investors. Like, in a pandemic world, like, Clubhouse was a right. The right product at the right time. Right. Because it came out in December of. Well, I don't know when it came out. We got on board in December of 2020.

Yeah, it was, like, mid-2020.

So it came out, like, mid-2020, which was, like, right when the pandemic was, like, full swing and everybody was staying inside and lockdowns and. And all of that kind of stuff. Nobody was traveling. So we now had a way to interact with people in a time where it was much harder to interact with groups of people. We couldn't go to events where 50 people were all hanging out, but you can have a clubhouse room where 50 people were all hanging out. You couldn't go speak on a stage in front of a large audience in person, but you can create your own stage and speak in front of a large audience on Clubhouse. So I think there was a huge timing element that came along with Clubhouse, and I think all of these copycat platforms that are trying to come along are, like, missing the reason that it got big in the first place.

It's true.

But one of the. But the people that were on there going, ooh, this is where all the, like, tech investors are hanging out. They were going on there and pitching their ideas. Remember Arjun? We were talking to this dude, Arjun, who was just going to town on Clubhouse. He was pitching investors, he was raising a few bucks, and he was raising huge money.

Right?

So I'm not saying there's no use for it. There's no place for it. I'm just saying that. That I don't think it's. I think the fat of it's gonna die off. And I think that all of these other copycat platforms are missing the reason that it actually got big in the first place.

You know, it was telling. There was one conversation. Some room, and I'm always gonna. Well, there's a couple rooms. Like the first room we did with Tyrese Gibson.

It's so cool to be able to bring our mics over here and look at each other.

Wow. Look, I can look at you deep into your eyes. Don't lose contact, Matt.

All right, keep going. All right, finish your thought.

He's gonna break. Break eyesight first.

Well, I'm gonna blink, but just so you know, I broke.

I blinked first. No, but still didn't break. So.

Long extended. God, now I'm Distracted back to where we are. The. The room that. That. So I mentioned Tyrese. It was super cool because the very first room we ever started, randomly, I think it was Brackistan's that was there. Sean Vossler eventually showed up and ended up emceeing the whole damn thing. But then Tyrese Gibson from Fast and Furious and all these other things showed up randomly and ended up riffing with us on stage for, like, 45 minutes. And that was cool. He told us some story about meeting Jeff Bezos and thinking of imposter syndrome. Like, we were asking him, like, dude, how is that? You know? And what were you thinking? And what. It was really cool. He was just being a cool guy and getting to know Bezos, and they hit it off. But the room that there was one. I remember specifically, it was, like, past midnight. I definitely should have been asleep because I had had a young kid at the time, still do, but younger then, that was not sleeping. And I was like, I can't put this down. And it was Naval Ravikant in there, his brother Kamal Ravikant. We've had him on the show before. And there was someone from Apple that was pretty high up, I think a designer of some sort, and then a few other investors, I think someone from Andreessen Horowitz. So, I mean, huge Silicon Valley people. And I remember them talking specifically about the Internet marketers that flooded onto Clubhouse, because I remember seeing Naval's name actually pop around in some of these Internet marketing chats. And I was like, interesting. What's he doing? And then I saw a room where it was just like 30 people. And I happened to be in there, and I was just like, whoa. Like, what kind of opportunity is this? And they were totally. And this is not recorded in anything. Cause you don't do that there. But they were like, man, it's wild how this platform has changed. And they were talking about how the Internet marketers were doing all this, like. Like one upping kind of thing. These contests, the structures. They were talking about how interesting it is that they've used this technology differently than what it was actually made for as, like, the Silicon Valley project and what they invested in originally. I don't think they, like. I don't know, Like, I guess they enjoyed it, maybe because it probably grew popularity, but, like, the mechanism was completely different with the different audiences that used it. So I don't know what they would say. I'd be kind of curious. I'm very curious, actually.

Yeah.

But, yeah, I mean, it's interesting with different Lenses. People just see it as a different tool. So I would. I guess my prediction is that maybe not prediction, but my feeling is that these are all tools, they're all going to be used in different ways. But I don't know about Fireside, though. You know, this is. I mean, they're going direct to podcasters and calling them out on the biggest stage or one of the biggest stages, you know, in podcasting.

So, yeah, it's a good marketing strategy.

It is. It's smart. I mean, Mark Cuban's a smart guy. There's a reason why I did that.

Yeah. One other quick little rabbit hole that I think is a sort of fun, topical thing of the moment around content creators.

Oh, yeah, OnlyFans.

OnlyFans just decided.

OnlyFans favorite website up until earlier this week.

Yeah, I mean, I got. Yeah, because I mean, you got the boot. I got the boot.

You're the creator on the platform, not the consumer.

I was showing my.

Oh, now they know. Put them away.

No, I've never actually used OnlyFans, but I am familiar.

But with OnlyFans, they've decided that they are no longer going to allow explicit content on the platform. And my very first thought was there's something other than explicit content on OnlyFans.

I think that's probably most people's thought.

I don't think anybody realized that OnlyFans was used for something other than adult content. Right.

I mean, it's true. I mean, yeah. Again, no experience, but it is very interesting. Yeah, they decided to take away explicit content. There's already pop ups, other websites popping up and apps that will satisfy those needs for folks. But yeah, it got us talking about how it's interesting because that's a platform of its own. People created profiles, they created communities, recurring revenue from their subscriptions. A lot of people, I mean, it boomed over the. I was gonna say the recession. I mean, the pandemic, but.

The pandemic, yeah, it was a side hustle for people. They made extra money on it.

Think of all. I mean, let's put the sex worker thing aside, but like people that built the platform, like you were saying earlier, like now they just got the boot, the big fat boot in the ass and now they're out.

Yeah.

Well, think of all the families and people out.

Yeah. Like you said, completely. Take the fact that these people are putting adult content online. If you ignore that fact, this is, this is like a Patreon, right. This is a platform where people created content, they put the content online, they built these communities, and these are the people who built up Only Fans. Right. The reason anybody's ever even heard of Only Fans is because of these creators. These people are who made them big. And. And Only Fans would be a nothing website. Nobody would have ever heard about it. Nobody would be talking about it if it wasn't for the explicit content that was on there. And now they're saying, oh, oh, thanks for building our platform and giving us the valuation we have today, but we're booting all of you. Right. And that's just.

Are they a public company, do you know?

No, but they're trying to raise capital which is part of their. Like they just released an OnlyFans app, I guess.

Oh, they didn't have one before. I thought they would have.

I guess they just released an Only Fans app and they're trying to raise investor money for OnlyFans and they're pay. And so Apple doesn't allow explicit content in apps, first of all. And then I guess they were having issues with payment processes getting shut down because there's a much higher propensity for fraud on adult websites than any other website. So they kept on having payment processor issues. And also they wanted to make it look more valuable to investors, which I think you can argue that it probably makes it a lot less valuable to investors because the creators that built it all up are now getting booted.

Their cash cow just went out the window.

And I think it's their competitors stupidest decision because now let's say you and I decide we want to create a membership site. Are we gonna create it on OnlyFans? Like are we gonna go on a podcast and be like, hey, go check out our Only fans.

Right.

It just sounds weird now. The brand is too frickin burnt into people's minds of what it actually is.

Think of the power of the brand. Even though it was explicit content that seeped into society. Yeah. Like the knowing that that's what happens on that platform, that's what helped build that brand and that connection to the world. Even though we have never used Only Fans, that's now forever planted in our brain.

Yeah.

As that's where people go and show off some stuff for a little bit of coin.

Yeah.

I mean, seriously. And like now what's it gonna do? Like are they gonna have to. Are they gonna rebrand their name as well? And like.

Yeah, I don't know.

To be. It'll be fascinating.

And the people that were on there, what do they do? I know, yes, there's other platforms popping up, but now they have to repopulate these other platforms with all their content, are all their members gonna migrate? Because it's not like the billing is gonna get transferred over. They have to get everybody to sign up. So all of the recurring subscriptions are dead now. And you've got to talk all of the fans that are over here to coming over to this new subscription service, which is going to be a nightmare for them. Right. So like that's, it's, it's a rough place to be in. And although I'm not a customer of this service, I do feel for the creators for sure.

Well, my takeaway here is that this is a platform just like any other platform. They're all platforms. Clubhouse, the platform, Fireside, freaking Spotify, Apple, whatever. They're all platforms that you probably don't want to put an extreme amount of weight under are in. I mean, some more than others, obviously.

Be diversified.

Yeah, be diversified. But like it's what Dan Kennedy said a long time ago. It's like the worst number in business is one.

Yeah.

So don't. I mean, I'm sure a lot of these folks don't think about the business side of it or being diversified with their, with their showing off content. But you know, like.

Showing off content.

Yeah. Or below in your case.

So Joe's my only subscriber.

Just one cheek.

I don't know why he still subscribes.

I mean, just a laugh. There's nothing.

Carrying on. No, it's just funny. I mean like it's. It's not. I think the platform thinking is very smart to do, but this is just case in point of don't put all your weight into one. Yeah.

Leverage multiple platforms. That's it.

And then be. Be strategic with how you leverage platforms as well. It's like they're not all going to be the same tool for all the reasons you want. Discovery might be one from one platform and you bring them over to something else, you know, like. Or listen to. So that's how we see podcasts and YouTube. It's like discovery, YouTube, podcasts, connection and deeper bonds. And from there continue to listen to the podcast, but then get onto our email list.

Is this turning into a pitch for Pod Hacker?

No, because it could. It totally could and should. Yes. Let's end it that way because we're already over time. We are. So let's do that because that's the journey. I feel like the journey is where it's all about. And platforms are just gonna keep popping up, up. They're going to, they're going to some are going to rise to popularity, a lot are going to get crushed. Doesn't matter how much funding is behind them. It's, it's exactly all the stuff that we're talking about here.

So, yeah, so I mean, if, if you want to go deeper on this stuff, this is what we actually teach and talk about in Pod Hacker. We've got our, our sort of beam framework, build, engage, amplify, monetize, all of the phases that we believe are important for a podcaster, but also for a creator. We're really, really focused on both podcasters and creators because as we've talked about a lot, we're doing a lot on YouTube so we can't like leave that out of Pod Hacker. So if you're focused on podcasting or YouTube or ideally both, it's your brand, your brand.

At the end of the day, if you're a business owner, an entrepreneur with a brand that you want to grow, I would say just like, yeah, because this is a brand. This is how you spread your brand online these days.

Yeah. So check all that out. Over@podhacker.com.

We do these expert sessions and we do these live office hours once a month, two separate sessions, but the live office hours are like this. It's basically two hours of us kind of riffing on all the latest news and where we see things going and what we would do and what we are doing to sort of navigate where things are going. So it's a very, very valuable thing to be a membership, a member of. Cause it's a one time price and we just do these things every month for all of our customers.

We can't help ourselves, we can't stop. Yes.

So pothacker.com go there.

That's everything you need. And we also have a little news thing that this is the second call to action. But if you go to podhacker.com news you'll see some weekly emails from us. Just every Monday we send out a lot of the stuff that we're staying up on, the news and everything. But Pod Hackers, the deep dive. Yep. So what else? We also have action guide of this episode. Just a little reminder to y', all, I think we covered a lot here. That was interesting. I think it was interesting. So get the notes, the flow notes over@flowchartgroup.com two weeks to get those at the time of this recording going live, go to Flowchart Group, flowchartgroup.com and plug in your email address.

Yes. You can also join our group when you do that. But we'll send you the notes as well.

We will, of course. And then easy webinar sponsor that continues to show the love for you and us. So that's everything webinars. So if webinars are a key part of your business that maybe you want to optimize right now or one that you want to explore, that's the platform to do it because it does everything webinars. And you could probably get creative with podcasting and other types of content on there because you could live stream and do all sorts of funny stuff. Funny stuff.

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Yeah. Yeah. So go there. Hustle and Flow. Nope, not that one. Ezwebinar.com hustle. Hustle. And if you love this episode, please tell others and go find us on YouTube if you haven't already. If you're there already. Thank you. Go to hustleandflowchart TV and hit that red subscribe button or whatever color it is for you. Yeah, that's going to help us out. Show this to more people. And we love you. Thank you. Appreciate you. Bye. Till next time. We out.

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