Zachary Babcock - From Prison To Profitable Podcaster

My experience was anytime I tried to collaborate with anybody, literally anybody, any entrepreneur up and coming, just like myself, nobody gave me the time of day. I was just the ex convict turn entrepreneur afterthought. No. Everybody was counting me out, dude. And I was pissed from that, you know, And I was. I was using that pain and frustration. I was like, okay, I'm just gonna. I'm do this podcast, Underdog empowerment.

We're gonna do it.

Put it out. Got it ranked on day three, which I'm pretty sure you guys know it's really easy. Anybody can get ranked on Apple. You get a bunch of reviews. The question is, can you stay there over time? But I got it ranked by getting a bu of reviews. I'm like, holy crap. You know, I never experienced this type of success. And then I hit up Billie Jean as soon as I got ranked and then had him on the show the next week. But that was, like, crazy for me at the time. I was like, holy crap. You know, like, before, in one week's worth of time, nobody was giving me a chance. And now I'm interviewing Billie Jean and stuff, and it's just been a crazy spiral of upwards momentum ever since. Boom, boom, boom, boom, boom, boom.

What's up, everybody? You're listening to the Hustle and Flowchart podcast with your boys Mount Wolf and Joe Fear. Welcome back to the Hustle and Flowchart podcast. My name is Matt Wolfe. I'm here with Joe Fear.

Is this thing on? Is this thing on?

Yes, that's why I'm introing us.

Oh, well, you always talk like that, so it's always awkward. You know, typically, you're just talking. Matt practices that line. He just said, like, all the time. It's weird. So that's why I was just confirming. Is this one a real recording?

Yes.

Okay, cool. Got it.

I also answer my phone. Hi, this is Matt. Thank you for calling Hustle and Flowchart. How can I help you today?

Yeah, yeah, that's true.

It is actually true.

It's like, hey, Papa John's here. Hey, Matt. And Matt's.

My favorite thing to do is confuse people as soon as they call me.

Yeah.

Like, wait, did I call the right number? Like, what's going on?

That is. That's fine. It's even better to do it probably for random numbers that are calling your cell phone.

Yeah, I have done that too.

Instead of ignoring them, you might as well just, like, screw with them a little bit.

Although, one time I got, like, a random number. You and I were at, like, our Old office. And I got, like, a random phone call, and I'm like, I'm gonna answer this and fuck with them.

Right?

And I answered it, and it was actually one of our customers, which we're.

Like, how the hell did he get his phone number?

Yeah.

And we're not opposed to talking to our customers, of course. But, yeah, I think you're like, you don't. You know, I was like, I had to pick up your. Your random number. Yeah.

I thought it was gonna be a salesperson. I was ready to, like, screw with them. Cause, like, I always screw with salespeople when I answer them.

And it was like, a guy that invested.

It was a guy who, like, bought something from us and was, like, asking questions about it. It's like, oh, shit, I gotta take this to see seriously.

Yeah, it was kind of a. Yeah, I think it was at the office where we had two kegs all the time in the office. I think if I remember correctly, it was in the afternoon. So I think probably a couple beers were already in you, and you're like, now I gotta get serious. I wasn't expecting.

But it's okay. I essentially told them to, like, write into support. I'm like, I'm not the person you need to be talking to. My team handles that. My team handles that right. Into support. Yeah.

I think it was a longer call than you wanted, but all right, that's enough. Two minutes of pounds.

Oh, yeah.

Yeah. But it's fun. Yeah. Just mess with random phone numbers.

That's what the intro is for. Right? You get little mini behind the scenes kind of stupid stories from us.

True life right there. Yeah, that's what we do. And I guess that's. So we got Zachary Babcock on the show today. Yes, we do. And he is an interesting dude. And I think he filtered himself a lot, probably the first half of this podcast or three quarters of it. And I was kind of curious. I was like, does he, like. He has to, because he think we're a family show. If you go to his podcast, it's like, he's just, you know, underdog empowerment. Yes. He's spitting it out there and truth bombs everywhere. But this guy, we. He's a. He's a friend of ours now. That's for dang sure. So we talk all. He's got a crazy history, you know, being in prison for a long time. I mean, he can tell the story better than us, obviously, but from an addictive personality in his younger years, going to prison. But now taking that addictive personality and turning it into a good thing. Yeah.

Channeling it towards the business.

And he's blowing it up right now. He's doing some big things. And this session right here, we kind of jump around from his story in prison because that's very unique and interesting. But also podcasting. He's a prolific podcaster, had some huge.

Name guests on, is doing really well, growing his show really fast.

Tons of systems and he laid them out here for us. Like, he probably laid out like three, four different things.

It's funny because I think a couple of times he disclaimed that, like, oh, I'm not really a systems guy. I don't really think like systems. But on this podcast he mapped out like five or six systems that he's just like killing it with for getting on big name podcast, getting big guests on a show, you know, getting, getting people to rank and subscribe and review his podcast, getting the guests that come on his show to actually share the show. He actually does have like solid systems and he shares all these systems with us. But you also get the backstory. We get into some mindset stuff like what is it like to go from prison to, you know, trying to run your business in the, in the real world outside of prison? So we cover a lot of ground and a lot of like, it's really fascinating but also really tactical.

Yeah. So strap in because Zachary or Zach, and he's Brandon as Zachary, but we call him Zach. Yeah. Yeah. He's fun man. And so Underdog Empowerment is his podcast and he's, you know, he's a top ranked podcast and he has strategies. He's about to basically tell you exactly how he did that.

Yeah, he's definitely an open book on that kind of stuff.

Yep.

And lots and lots and lots of good stuff. Lots of systems. So you're going to want to grab the notes for this one.

Scripts too. Scripts, like word for word scripts.

He flat out gives some scripts that you can use when reaching out to people. So you're definitely going to want these notes because we're going to have all that kind of stuff in there. Make sure you grab the notes over at hustle and flowchart.com.

That'S hustle and flowchart.com for the folks.

That, you know, you like the whispering thing.

Yeah. Esmr. Asmr.

What does that stand for?

I have no clue. But it's like weird. Like, hello, how are you doing? I know some people don't like being whispered or like your massage. Yeah.

I mean, if you're, if you're listening in headphones. Joe's probably creeping you out.

I'm sorry.

You probably just pooped yourself.

Well, I got your attention, so go to hustleandflowchart.com comp get those notes. They're free. You only have two weeks from the time this goes live. Or you can text the phone number 38470. That is 38470, type the word comp, and you'll get the notes that way too.

Sweet. Let's go talk to Zachary Babcock.

All right, Zach, we're live. How you doing, man?

Dude, I'm excited to be here with you guys. Thanks for having me, for sure.

Yeah. No, I know you and Matt have been chatting a little bit. How do you guys meet each other? I actually don't know.

I think. How was it? It was over Facebook. Somebody tagged me on something that you did, or somebody tagged you on something that I did, but I don't remember exactly. I think Brad Spencer or someone like that tagged you on one of my posts about, hey, looking for cool guests for our podcast or something like that. I can't. I can't remember now, but maybe you have a better memory of it.

Yeah, I don't remember the exact, exact thing. It was something like that, though. Like a tag on a post or something. And then we started chatting it up in the DMs, and then now we're here.

Oh, there you go, man. I mean, that's. Most people are always like, how are you getting these, like, interesting folks on the show and all that stuff? Or just getting connected? Just, like, post on Facebook. Just post on your network, you know, and, like, let your. Let your network kind of do the work for you, and they'll make some cool introductions, and the right people, they kind of show up. So, yeah, man, you have a badass show. I've been listening. I was kind of binging on it last night a lot, actually, while I was doing some other stuff. I was just like, I like your style, and you go big with the guests that you bring, too. That's impressive because most people don't feel like. I don't know, like, the consistency. It looked like I was just like, wow, you got some big freaking names coming on here. And I feel like you're just opening them up in, like, a different way than maybe what they. They appear on other shows, you know, so.

Right on, man.

Curious about talking about your podcast story, but also just a story in general. Yeah. Your backstory, what got you here?

Well, let's start there, because you know, you've got a pretty successful podcast now. I believe you have an agency as well where you help other, you know, build and grow their podcasts. What got you to where you are now? Because I know, you know, you've got a backstory that, you know, I don't, I don't want to spoil any of your backstory, but let's, let's kind of just get, go back and how did you get to where you are today? Let's, let's just kind of hear it because I'm sure you've told it a million times so you've, you know it like the back of your head. But let's, let's go ahead and dive right into that.

Yeah, dude, for sure. I'll give the Cliff Notes version too. But right before we do that, I just want to say your guys show is really gnarly too. Dude. I've been, I've been licking my chops waiting to get on, get on here. Dude, this is, this is awesome, man.

Yeah, no, this one's actually been quite a while coming because you and I had a phone call what maybe six months ago and tried to figure it out and we finally, we finally locked down a date that worked for everybody. But this is, this has probably been about six months coming to do this interview.

Yeah, dude, it's, it's exciting, man. And really, really glad and grateful you guys are having me here. Yeah, my story, dude, I'll do super, super high level overview and we can unpack more obviously, but if you want to. But dude, I grew up without a father figure and I always, I'm not using this as an excuse or anything. I own, I own everything. Right. But I wanted to fit in, I guess more so than what a normal person wants. You because we all want to fit in. We all want to be a part of tribe because we're social creatures. You know, this goes back to our primitive ages. I was a little bit more so than the average and that was led to a lot of unhealthy decisions and way of life and doing things outside of my character and values to fit in with a specific crowd. And it got into a lot of trouble. Started doing drugs. By the time I was 17, I caught some cases for being a knucklehead. Going out and stealing one night with a bunch of friends. Ended up taking the rap for those cases. And then by the time I was 19, I went away for five years or four years of my life on a seven year sentence. I got out when I was 23. For about two years. And then I went back to prison for a DWI. And that was 20 days before my twin sons were born. Yeah, the one that popped in here before we hit record 20 days for. And that was it for me, man. That was like, you know, because I grew up without a father. I used to play football as a kid and all my friends, dads would be at practice and I used to wonder how that felt. And I couldn't wait to be a father and to be at my kids football practice to be the coach or whatnot. And now I'm missing out on that critical moment. And so that pain was enough to be like, dude, I'm done. And I started looking at life in a completely different way. And ever since that moment, been heading in a completely new direction.

How long, how long were you in for the, the second time.

Second time was eight months. So I did a total of five years altogether. But the sec, that second time, that eight months felt a hundred times longer than that first four years. I did because you know, I was, for the first two months I didn't. I was trying to imagine what my kids even looked like because it took that long to, you know. So I'm sitting there trying to like, do they look like me? Do they look like Stephanie? And is it, is, is he gonna remember, you know, like this? Like, you know, all those things were going. Thoughts were going through my head at that time.

Wow.

And then twins too. Double trouble.

Identical double trouble. Yeah.

Crazy.

I can't even imagine. So while you were in there, were you kind of like sort of plotting what you were going to do when you got out? Like did you kind of did your game plan for your business and what you were going to do? Did that, did that sort of sprout up while you were in there?

That's a really good question. I did. I was plotting. It never happened. What I, what I was plotting to do didn't never come about. So I've always been an entrepreneur. I just didn't know it until I actually started to actually do entrepreneur stuff. This when I came up this last time. But I used to sell T shirts to be in a rap group. And when I was, when I was a kid and sell the tickets for the shows and sell our CDs, I used to sell Pokemon cards and in grade school, like it's always been there. Right. I just didn't know that's what it was. But my idea was this was in 2014 when I went back and I'm from Ferguson, Missouri and that's also where the Michael Brown situation happened. And so I'm sitting there seeing him like, man, this is such an unfortunate event. I'm like, at the same time, the media is evil because my neighborhood is nothing. Like, I grew up here. It's not like how they're putting it out, portraying it to be. And I was like, man, what? I was like, I know I'm not gonna be able get a job when I get out, because I already experienced that. I was like, I'm gonna. This is the hell of a business plan. I'm gonna make up, make these T shirts that say I heart Ferguson and these wristbands that say I heart Ferguson. Go Doors selling them.

That never came about, but that was the game plan.

It's probably. Yeah, yeah, you probably went a better path with what you're doing, but that's rad. Yeah, I've always actually thought of it because, I mean, shoot, like five years. I mean, I can't imagine how all that felt, but there's just so much I would imagine just thinking time and, like, kind of just reflection, you know, and sounds like, you know, you had this kind of time where. Because now I listen to you, like, on your podcast and stuff, and it's just like, get out. After it got the whole underdog thing, you know, and like, you're basically like, when I was listening to you and Billie Jean, it was just like you guys were, like, riffing back and forth like brothers, you know, like, you guys kind of grew up together, but it's just like. I don't know, I feel like you just have this kind of. It seems like a quality that's like, waiting to just fricking. Well, it's not waiting. You're already doing it. You're, like, jumping out and you're jumping up fast, like, with your podcast, bringing in the heavy hitter kind of guess. Seems like it's growing. I think, from what Matt was saying with all the screenshots. Podcast is growing really quick, too, so. And what. You're guesting on a ton of shows like a madman. So it's just like you're putting in the work, you know? Like, you're. You're not just kind of, like, sitting back. So what's the mindset now that you've experienced all that? You have the two kids you like? How are you thinking? How are things changed from, like, before you went into prison for those five years?

A lot, man. And if we're going to talk about specifically, like, right now, right now, we're. I'm in the phase of really figuring out the systems of the business and getting that super dialed in. We recent. I recently part. Well we're pretty much partners. We just haven't signed the actual. We got a letter of intent and making sure we do it right and that it's the perfect marriage because you know, everything's always good right at the beginning. Right.

But. But I recently partnered with. With Tony in. In man. It's just. And I know Matt, you're sitting there this like you're get. The way you guys think amazes me. It's just like. It's like incredible. I'm like, wow. Because like I'm like you, Joe. I'm like the ideas, the relationships, the network building, the culture, like, like that's my jam. You get to start thinking about a procedure of this that has happened. It's like. And I'm like, oh my God.

That's what we got Matt here. That's right. So yeah. So you partnered up and was that going to be more of the. The systems kind of guy basically to your right hand man in that regard?

Well, it's funny and I think he'd. Tony probably laugh if he. If he hears this. But our first I flew out to. So we can have a, you know, intensive in person, like map out some of the. Some critical things, do some high level stuff. And he's like, it's like, you know, I mean this wholeheartedly, you know, from. From a place of love. But you were pretty. You're pretty stupid in creating what you created or whatever because he's like, he's like, he's like it's a good thing. But he's like this service, he's like I, I see that I. I've searched high and dry and like all of it together that you're doing, it's never been done before. And it's cool, you know that you know, you're doing it and so you want to offer the service. But it's like it's not as simple as you think think to build something this complex or whatever. And I was like, it kind of opened my eyes like, okay, so we just got a lot of work to do. But that's.

Yeah. And I do remember that from one of your episodes is with a. I think it was a part time cfo, Casey, I believe his name is. And you were talking about that how like. Yeah. You have more like the.

Yeah.

The relationship side of stuff. That's totally me. And that's where Matt falls in. But then like, you know, you Were talking about finances and all that, you know, systems of an agency, like. Cause I used to have an agency, too. And, yeah, if, like, Matt looked at it and how I was running that thing, he'd be like, it's so dumb. What are you doing? You're working too hard, or everything's scattered, but that's fine. You know, I think partnerships are good. Or bringing in a mentor to kind of give you the ropes on systems helps a lot.

Yeah. So how did. So where did podcasting come from? So you got out, you were planning on doing your shirts and bracelets and stuff like that, but ended up in podcasting, like, fill in the gaps for us there.

Yeah, yeah, exactly. There's a lot of guests filling. And to be honest, if I got to be real, you hear, you know, like, some people say, oh, luck's not real. It's all hard work. That's. That's bull, man. Luck is very real. And how I got into podcasting was a mixture of. Of Hustle and Luck. It's exactly what it was both times on. So before I actually got into podcasting, I was putting a lot of content. I was on YouTube, and I was putting out three videos a week for nearly two years straight without missing a single upload. Like, that's how consistent. The same with the podcast we got. We've never missed a single Monday over the two years that we had it. But I didn't put out the podcast. I preferred video or whatever. More. And there was more. You know, there's more that you have to do to actually set up a podcast, you know, like getting the equipment, syndicating in on all the directories and all this stuff. Right. So there's just a little bit. A few more obstacles, I guess you'd say, a few more things that you had to do to actually get it rock and rolling. So that, I guess that was an excuse that I was using, whatever. But it came in time, in 2017, where I was shifting, and I was like, man, I've been trying everything because I got into network marketing, did that for two years, had a little bit of success, was making almost 2,000amonth residual, but it just wasn't my thing. And so I finally left, and I got in. I was starting to be this life coach for a while, and so glad I'm not doing that no more.

You're a mindset guy, right? You said you like a lot of that stuff, but, yeah, I do.

I'm doing the 75 hard challenge, which is just a mental toughness challenge, basically. But I love stuff like that. But, you know, I was just all over the place trying to figure, trying to find my footing and really was trying to skip steps that can't be skipped, which a lot of people in the space do, where they try to be successful before they actually develop a skill in character. So, long story short, I've been trying all these things, right? And then I hear this video by Russell Brunson. I was in the Click Funnels hacked masterclass. It's funny because I literally moved off of that platform just because I. Even though it's a superior product, I can't stand the community.

And so I moved to LeadPages just because I can't do it, which. Which Click Funnels is way better than Lead Pages. It was just that fact. It was crazy. But at the time, I was trying to figure out how to market learning marketing stuff. And he said in one of those things, he's like, yeah, I had a client stuff of him. He couldn't. He had no opportunities, nothing. But then he launched his podcast and saw these opportunities started flooding his way, give or take, whatever he said. Well, for me at that time, my experience was anytime I tried to collaborate with anybody, literally anybody, any entrepreneur up and coming, just like myself, nobody gave me the time of day. I was just the ex convict turn entrepreneur afterthought, like, who's this clown? Who's this joker? Is this a matter of time? Free goes back to prison? No. Everybody was counting me out, dude. And. And I was pissed from that, you know, and I was using that pain and frustration. I was like, okay, I'm just gonna. I'm gonna do this podcast, Underdog Empowerment. We're gonna do it, Put it out. Got it ranked on day three, which I'm pretty sure you guys know it's really easy. Anybody can get ranked on Apple. You get a bunch of reviews. The question is, can you stay there over time or what? But I got it ranked by getting a bunch of reviews. I'm like, holy crap. You know, I never experienced this type of success. And then I hit up Billie Jean as soon as I got ranked and then had him on the show the next week. So you heard the second episode. I had one, but. But that was, like, crazy for me at the time. I was like, holy crap. You know, like before, in one week's worth of time, nobody was giving me a chance. And now I'm interviewing Billie Jean and stuff. And it's just been a crazy spiral of upwards momentum ever since. So there's the luck of seeing that video that caused me to take action on it and then I don't like to talk to long winded answers.

I'm pretty sure you're good, man, this is fascinating. Keep going. If you add some more to it.

Right on. I just. Real respectful because I've had guests on my show where you ask them a question, they start talking for 20 minutes.

And you're like, yeah, we've been there.

This is good. Yeah, we've had those interviews too where it's like we'll ask one question and then the next 45 minutes will be the answer to that one question. But no, this, this is a good discussion so far. So don't even, don't even worry about that.

Well, talk about the. Because like yeah, you grew your show fast. Most people don't think like it's that quick, but you just said it's what reviews and what subscriptions right? From mainly like those two in a short metrics.

I mean because you know, I don't know the algorithm ca. I'm not Apple. Not nobody does unless you like build the algorithm at Apple or whatever. But the, the metrics that, that they, that they take, I guess and decide whether they're going to push up in the ranking system are reviews, ratings, subscribers and downloads. I don't know what else metrics they could really take. There may be some that I don't know, but those. So what I found like how I stay in the top 200 now over time is by, you know, in the beginning you're lacking those downloads numbers because you're brand new show and you get people like John Lee Dumas that get a million downloads a month and stuff, you know, and, but over time though, if you, if you have a system where you're feeding reviews because those are like, you know, the first step is a download, then they take the next step by subscribing because they're telling Apple hey, anytime they release, I want it automatically download. Third step, they can rate it, just put a star on there. And then they take that final four step written review where they sit there and actually take their time to write out thoughtful review. So if you, if you build in a system where you're feeding reviews to your podcast consistently and then you're constantly growing your show, there's plenty of ways of doing it like going on other podcasts that align with yours and a ton of other ways and constantly have a system that's growing your downloads, you're gonna, you're gonna become a front facing, well known Apple podcast over Time.

Yeah, man. Yeah. And what. So how do you keep the consistent reviews coming? And subscription or subscribers? Cause I know on your show, you know, you call them out. You do it in a fun way, too. I forget exactly what you said, but I think that's the outro, Right. Of every podcast, which most podcasters have. But do you have any other mechanisms to stay in the top 200? Because that's kind of tough, man. Because, I mean, a lot of folks can't pull that off. But you're doing it.

Yeah. And it is. And I'm pretty sure you guys see it, like, it's volatile, just like. Just like the stock. There's nothing linear about it just like, losing weight. You don't lose weight constantly, every day, even if you're eating a steady diet. It's just the. It's like a. It's not a linear process. Yeah, but. Yeah, so there's a. There's a ton of different ways. Like with. With reviews, specifically, system we have built in. Like now we have, you know, our booking specialist that does this for myself, but I used to do this for myself. Like, if you go look at my reviews on my show on Apple for the US Market, every single month, there's reviews every single month. And it's because there's a system built in. We use. I call it the top 200 script. It's a script that I developed. I literally just did it out of pure hustle bit when I found out that I could get ranked by getting reviews at that time. When I first started my podcast, I was broke, I wasn't making any money, and so I literally cleared my schedule for the next two weeks and sent out this script over 4,000 times, no exaggeration, hit up every single body on my Facebook friends list and all my contacts in my phone. But it literally. And it's a simple. It didn't start off as this, but it evolved to what it is now. And it's not. It's not perfected. I'll never say anything's perfected because that means it can't. It can't be better, but it is definitely optimized. It's been optimized for sure. And there's psychology behind it. That why it works so good. But it's a simple process. Do you want me to run through it?

Let's do it.

That's great, man. Yeah.

All right, so this. I promise, if you just follow this script right here, you can get people to leave you reviews because it's what people mess up at, is that they. They try to talk to people online in a weird way. They don't talk to them the same way that they would offline. And there's no difference. It's still human. It's still relationships. You got to be. You have a respectful conversation with people instead of being a douchebag.

So most people, they'll just, like, try and be lazy and make a post on Facebook and say, go, new podcast. Go leave a review or whatever. And then they'll barely get anybody, if anybody to leave a review because it's a general post. Nobody comes to Facebook to leave you a review on your podcast or even to listen your podcast or coming to for social. Social media. And so that doesn't work unless, I mean, you could get some. But it's not very effective. And then. Then they'll do. They'll go into the DMS where they'll. They'll mess it up completely. Just copy and paste a message and try and shove a link down your throat. Let's think about that for a minute, bro. If we're at a party, like, say we're at a party and we went to high school with each other, and we don't. We never were, like, tight, close friends, but we knew each other, but didn't really know know each other. And like, we're at a party and I run up to you and I'm like, joe, Matt, dude, check out my new podcast, dude. Here's the link.

Go.

Leave it. You'd probably want to punch me in the throat if I just came and just shoved down my pilot. Here, pull out your phone, leave it stuff, you know, so instead of just trying to hurry up and get that instant gratification, like, actually have a conversation with someone in a. And be respectful and have a dialogue with someone. So here's the script, man. It's super simple. First one is, hey, man, I got a huge favor to ask. And then I wait. And if it's a. If it's a girl, I'll say, hey, Stephanie, I got a huge favorite. I'll say her name. I have a huge favor to ask. And then I'll wait. Not shoving down a link. They have now it's. Now they can choose to either ignore the message or say no or say, what's up? They're gonna say, you know, they're curious. They're gonna be like, a favor. What's up? Some people be like, oh, shit, what do you want now?

Depending on the person.

Yeah. And so they'll respond. And most of the time, you'll from my experience most I'm like, yeah, what's up? What's going on? Or what's the favor? They wanna know. And then you say, hey, can you subscribe to my podcast and leave me a five star review? If I send you a link, the reason why I say it exactly like that, there's three elements to it. Can you subscribe to my podcast that's gonna automatically start doing downloads? So I'm covering both metrics there. And then can you write a five star review? Technically I could say, can you write me a review? And they automatically have to leave a rating, but I've literally had a client that asked for a review and the person wrote out an awesome review, but they gave him a one star. They didn't know five star was better.

Okay, got it. Damn. Yeah, I've always thought about that too. Because yeah, some you never know. Like in we don't have, I think we have like one one star review.

But they didn't leave any comments.

Yeah, it's just like, come on, man. But you might as well be clear. And then you're almost kind of just like making. I don't know, I like where you're headed with this because it seems like you're kind of sparking the curiosity you're putting in their court. You're kind of like ping ponging back and forth rather than just shove it down their throat kind of thing. Yeah, dude.

And that's why it works so well. And like, again, it's not perfected. There might be even a more efficient way to do it. This is just what I found, what worked for me. And then we've taken this and duplicated it well over a hundred times with 100 success right now of all of our clients. It's fucking kick ass 4000.

No, you're fine. Say whatever you want.

We swear all the time. That's fine.

I said that. I was like, oh, release the dog.

Because I know in your podcast you're just all over. Yeah, just let it go. Yeah, that's so that's it. I mean, right there. Right? I mean, that's.

Well, not so. There's one more thing. So, so, so, you know. Yes, for the five star. That way you're, you're communicating that. And then, then you say if I send you a link, and that's, that's really crucial right there because again, now you're giving them two chances to either ignore or say no. You're not just shoving down a link and you're being respectful. You're saying, hey, if I do this, will you do that? And. And then most people, like, dude, the response after that 90% time, they're like, yeah, sure, no problem. But I'll run through a couple of responses that you'll probably run into. Some people won't have an Andrew. They'll have an Android. They won't have an Apple. In that case, that's just part of the game. It's just part of the numbers. I'm not gonna sit there and walk them through how to set up an Apple account. It's just too much. In that case, I'll just say, dude, I really appreciate that you're gonna leave me a review. It's also on Spotify and Stitcher, other platforms, if you want to check it out. But thanks, man. And then I'll just leave it at that.

Or you'll get the. This is the best answer is, yeah, sure, I'll leave a review, but I'm gonna check it out first and I'm gonna leave an honest review.

Mm.

That's what you want. Because they're actually gonna engage and listen to it. You know what I mean? And. And they might become a loyal, loyal fan at that point. But, yeah, most of the time there's gonna be like, yeah, sure, no problem. And then. So in that case, I would say exactly this. Thank you. I appreciate you taking your time to do this and then drop your link and the reason why. Can I explain the psychology behind that real quick?

Yeah, please.

Yeah.

Have you guys ever read the book Robert Cialdini's Influence?

Yep.

That's a good one.

Yeah, it is. So you know that I think it's the second principle in there when he's talking about the human need to stay consistent with what we commit to publicly.

Yep. Consistency principle.

Yeah. Yeah. He gave the whole thing about the American prisoner war and Vietnam stuff. So we're not doing nothing crazy like that. Right.

But we're using that principle of they just agree that they were going to leave us a review. So you say, thank you. I appreciate taking your time to do this. You remind them that, oh, yeah, I just said that most people are good people. They're not dirt bags. They said, yeah, I said, I'm gonna do that. And then you leave the link and like, oh, I need to go do that now and leave that review, because I said I was gonna do that.

Yeah, man.

And then. And then you get the review that way.

That's it.

And you said you didn't have systems. That's probably the best system for getting reviews. There is.

Right on, man.

Yeah. I mean it's like, that's like the, the hustle system. I love it. Yeah. It's like the perfect. Because it's like a. It's like scalable but not, not scalable. You did it 4,000 times for yourself and you're doing it for what, a hundred clients. You said now like so, so.

Yeah, so. So now we, we offer that as a service where, where, where we actually do that for you and get you reviews from your network and stuff. But we've, we've also over the. What I was mentioning about the over 100 times success rate with a hundred. Over 100 people. Yeah. That was through like group coaching and showing people that process and them actually doing it themselves.

Solid.

And the cool thing is that it doesn't take 4,000 pitches.

I'm just a really competitive guy, you know?

Yeah.

Like I know for us when we've popped into different categories on itunes, it's usually like doing a contest, which is probably a lot more effort than what you're doing right there. Just asking.

Well, I don't know, maybe that woman. Because the contest is actually the. I was going to follow that up and pretty obviously you guys already knocked that. Knocked that out. The contest is even faster way to do it. You just gotta, you know, pick the right prize so you don't get just anybody joining the contest. Women and stuff.

That's where the sweet spot is, is figuring out that right prize is. We've done that wrong in the past where we give away iPads and then you just get like a shit ton of people entering your contest that you don't. They're not in your ideal audience. Right. So it's kind of pointless. Like, what have you found? Have been some good prizes for your podcast.

I've run two contests now and the first one didn't get a lot of reviews. And I think the reason why I was doing it through Kingsumo was the software that I use. And the reason why is because I picked. I didn't. The focus was split too much. I had. You can get a point for following me on Instagram and liking my Facebook page. Just all this stuff. And so there's too many things, of course, how they could get points. And so I learned from my lesson. There was like, no, just keep it focused on reviews and subscribe to the podcast only like if that's what we're. The goal is. So I learned from that. And then the, the first one, I gave away a copy of Breakthrough Advertising by Eugene Schwartz Love that book. It's super dense.

Yeah.

And it had a lot of good response to that, but it was just like I didn't get a lot of reviews. Second one I gave to my course, top rated podcast and gave away to that. And what I found, that one didn't got better than the first one because the focus wasn't split. It was just like on that, but it didn't crush it. And what I come down to, what I think and what I'm going to test on the next one, I think it was because I didn't ask for a screenshot for the written review. And I think if you say we're going to select to qualify, you got to send us a screenshot of your review and we're going to pick a winner from that. I think that will be like the, the cherry on top, like what makes it work. I just haven't had a whole ton of success with, with contests yet.

Yeah, it's. I mean, I'm curious about the consistency because, like, do you do to stay in the ranks? Do you have like a consistent system for outreaching or is it just like you're just going in spurts? Like, hey, for once a month you're outreaching like a crazy man to your network or do you have a schedule? Like every week you do a little bit here and there to keep the rankings in itunes. I'd imagine you want that consistent flow, not just a spike. Right?

Right. Yeah, it's a really good question. So before it was like that, me doing that and it was cool. I'm glad that I did that way because I learned, developed a skill and learned it and then I was able to pass it on to the team and stuff. So now the team gets the reviews every single week. Like they're pitching out to my network to keep those reviews coming in. They're reaching out to like all the big name guests and stuff. Like my team does, 90% of the people that are getting landed now for the last year through the team, using scripts and processes that we've developed over time. But it's not me. So like. But I'll do like for an example, I'll do a podcast tour. Were super simple, man. But like I built up in the beginning I wouldn't have probably been able to pull it off. But you know, now that I've had a consistent podcast that ranks and a lot of awesome guests that come on the show and, you know, interviewing them in person and stuff like that and being able to showcase that to my audience, I built Like, a brand now and a following. And then now that I have, like, somewhat of a brand, like, it's not the biggest in the world, whatnot, but we're. We're moving towards that area. But now I'm able to leverage to. What's the word? Leverage that. I guess you would say, or use that. Yeah, it's leverage. I had to think about that. But I use that, though, and, like, I'll make a Facebook post. Literally. I just did this on my Facebook post. Did it three times now, and each time it gets easier to fill up. But I. Two Facebook posts, and I filled up 30 interviews in a week's worth of time.

Yeah.

And then I go on 30 different podcasts and all those. I always. Where can people find you, dude? Check out the pot under empowerments. Boom. Boom. So I got all. It's all pointing back to the show for people that liked me on that. On that podcast.

Yeah. No, that's. It's interesting. That's one of the things, like, when people ask us, how do I get on a whole bunch of podcasts? Like, that's what we always tell them. Go on Facebook and say, who do you know that has a podcast that'd be a good fit? For every single time we've done that, we're overwhelmed with more podcasts than we can possibly go on.

Oh, God, yeah. And everyone else should be, too, because that's the first thing. Yeah. We always say is, like, we all have a network, man. We're all sitting on a social network. It's super easy to talk with anyone. And we have a whole Dream 100 process of getting people to basically make introductions. But it's like, you're only one connection away from probably someone that you think is untouchable. Like, any of these names that you've had on your show, you know, like, they're probably just one, you know, step away. Or you could just reach out directly in a cool way, which I'm sure you've done, too. After you get a little bit of credibility, a little momentum and confidence.

Yeah.

Yeah. You know what, man? And the. Here's, like, there's no, like, I guess, right way or wrong way. Well, yes, there is. So I feel like. I feel like you just got to be yourself when you're reaching out to these people. But. But here's, like, some principles I would follow whenever you're reaching out. 1. The first one is the block in your head where so many people are like, oh, who am I to try and reach out to this person or whatever. And trust me, I'm not just saying, oh, I know how you feel. Like, how many people say that, right? But dude, I know how you feel. Like, and I mean that because before my podcast, nobody gave me a shot for anything. I was just the ex convict or an entrepreneur afterthought. So I, I know how that feels 100%. But the, but the thing you got to shift first is, is like you literally have to look at it like this. You have to say, I'm doing these people a favor by asking them to come on my show. A platform that I put all this hustle and energy and time and perfecting this craft and built this awesome audience. And like, you know, you're doing them a favor by sharing your platform with them. And that's a shift, man, because then you're going to be coming approaching it more confidently. You, you, you. The energy is just completely different. And that's huge right there. It totally is. You got to get it to. In the head of like, hey man, I'm doing these people. Yeah, yeah, they're, they're, they're super like well known celebrity says that's awesome. But hey, I'm still doing them a favor by getting them on my show, you know? Yeah, that's, that's the first thing. Second is, this is so important. Keep it short. Like as short as possible. Straight to the point, be blunt, don't beat around the bush with these people. Just think about it, dude. Like, pretty sure you guys get blown up a lot too. But like I, my inboxes are insane nuts. Like, I, we still don't know how to like tackle it from a way to even get some help with the team to even. It's nuts, right? So it's overwhelmed and stuff. So whenever I open up a message and somebody's pitching to come on my show, if it's like an autobiography, I start to get paranoid and anxiety.

And.

It'S usually like the PR agencies too, right? They're like, hey, here's the backstory of three people in one email. That's like, you're going to be here for like 30 minutes reading this email. There goes your day, your productivity.

You think the PR people especially would.

Learn right now, most of them don't. Yeah, yeah.

It's like, it's like, dude.

Sometimes I can't even read because I get. And just think about. So think about. That's how, how we feel. Just think about. You hit up Grant Cardone and how much does he or his gatekeeper. How do. Even if it's not him is his gatekeeper. How overwhelmed are they with, with, with outreach? They're not gonna read that whole entire thing, man. So keep it short, sweet, to the point, dude. Like I literally my pitches, I don't even know if it's word for word, but the first pitch is usually like, hey man, I would love to have you on my top rated podcast. You're a perfect fit for my show. Can we make this happen? Let me know. Talk soon. That's it. Like so straight to the point. And it's not like it's just, you're just going straight for that. And they appreciate that because you don't want you wasting their time with, with all this, whatever you want to dress it up as or whatever. And so like in that, that pitch right there works for us way more than any of the other ones. Like, this is our highest converting one. But, but then like the second pitch is a little bit longer than the first one, but it's still super short. Second one though, we'll, we'll do a little bit of name dropping a past guests that we had on our download numbers so they know that we're a legitimate show. You know, things like that. Hey, and I'll hit them with our one sentence credit. I call it the one sentence credibility Builder. Something that you might want to come up with to mine is, hey, I did over five years in prison. I'm scaling a six figure podcast marketing agency. You can learn more about me@underdog empowerment.com. yours can be, hey, I did X, Y and Z. Boom, boom, boom. And now I'm doing X, Y and Z. You can learn more about me at website, whatever. It's be like a stark contrast of where you were before, where you're at now or something.

Be. Drop that in there and then, and then that way I'm not giving them my whole biography. I'm just showing them, hey, wow, you know, I got something cool that I'm doing. And then if you want to learn more and dive deep and learn more about me, here's my website.

Dude, that's. I like it. Yeah, it's. You keep it simple, you know, like, and that's the thing. Most people are overcomplicating just the step one it's. Which is the mental part. Yeah, it's probably like 80, 20. You're thinking that's probably 80% of the battle right there is just reframing. And I like what you said about going back to. You have your own stage. I almost like, I've been thinking it as More of like a party. Like, hey, I'm gonna invite this person into my house, you know, like, and this podcast is my house. Like, right now, we're hanging out. We're just chilling. We don't have beers or anything around us. But, yeah, we could. But, like, we're hanging out, and there happens to be other people in the party hanging out with us that are kind of over here in our conversation. They're in the room, maybe hanging out. Those are the subscribers. But it's like, yeah, it's. You're not inviting everyone in your house. Why would you be? You're gonna do some vetting. You're gonna be confident, be like, yeah, I want that guy, that gal, whoever. Hang out with me. Let's go chat. Let's have a good conversation on the couch or whatever. You're like, that's like the reframe to me to make it a good conversation, too. And it's exactly what you said.

That's a nice little analogy that you.

Put together right there. It's hanging out, man. Because that's like, the feeling. I mean, you've listened to this show. It's like, our personalities are just kind of chilling but going deep on some really interesting stuff.

Well, and the other feedback we always get, if we meet people in person, they're always like, dude, when I meet you in person, you're the exact same person I heard on the podcast. There's no variation. You are who you are on the podcast. In real life. That's by design. We just be who we are on the show. If we sound awkward and nervous, it's probably because we're fucking awkward and nervous during that interview.

You would be, too, if you're talking to.

But, you know, going back to one of the things you said was, like, there is sort of like this prettiest girl in the room syndrome with podcasting, right? Where, like, people just assume they can't get somebody on the show, but they've never asked them either, right? Like, you know, I'm going to sound very name droppy here, but we've had, like, James Altucher and Dave Asprey and David Allen, and people come up to us and they're like, how'd you get some of those names on your show? And we're like, we asked and they said, I was just chatting with Gabby.

Bernstein this morning, and she was asking to share, like, and she's got like a million followers or something on Instagram. I mean, it's like, it's huge. I'm like, wait, hold on where are We? Like, it's almost like a pinch, but it's just being cool. And. Yeah, it's asking. It's asking our network, you know, and just putting it out there, man. I feel like that's 80% of the battle. And then you follow it up with some really cool scripts. Like you said, like, talk. Like, you keep it short. Keep the other person in mind. You always, like, we're always constantly thinking of that. So I feel like, yeah, now that, like, you said, like, your. Your inbox is blowing up. We have that feeling. We're like, shit. I can only imagine what that inbox is looking like on the other end.

Yeah, yeah, they're getting. They're getting hit in. In.

So you. You said it right there at the end. The. Keep the other person in mind. The other. That's the key, too. That's the other, like, principle to follow, to keep it short and sweet to the point, you know, especially that first one. You can do a little bit more on the second one, but still keep this, like, five lines or less, you know? But always communicate the benefit for them to come in on your show. And it's like, some things like. Like what. I'll say. I was trying to throw some energy in on, like, the second pitch. Like, man, let's make this happen. Let's get you on my show, man. We'll talk about anything that you got going on. Promote whatever you got. Dude, you're a perfect fit. What do we got to do to make this happen? And then I just communicated the benefit for them. Like, hey, you can come and share whatever you got going on with my audience, but let's. Let's do it, you know? Yeah, it's just. Yeah, it's simple stuff, really, man.

So how does it work with, like, relationships after the show? Do you keep them going? Do you have, like, a game plan after that? Like, how does that look?

That's a great question. And that's something that I'm still, like, dialing in for me, I'm, you know, and it's gonna be different. Other people, I like to play long game, so I've never, like, after that interview, asked them for anything, you know, like. Like, you know, I had Grant Cardone on twice now or something. I still haven't asked him for anything or any facility. You know, I even. I just. I want to build that equity, and I know that, you know, by playing this role, that I can keep getting them to come back on my podcast. And if something does happen, cool. But I just want to Build up so much equity and then maybe if I ever do need to ask, I've already had this relationship with him. So much that I built up to where it's not like all this dude just got a podcast for me to ask you for some. That's really not what I'm going after. I'm going after. I'm going. The main play with interviewing these high level people. What I found. Dude, there. There's a lot of benefits in it.

All right.

One. The number one benefit, though is just having that relationship with this person.

Absolutely.

Dude. You never know. Like I do. Me and Bradley did. Did a cool little dude there. You never know what could. What that could come about and who they can introduce you to or what. You know, they. And a lot of times they have a lot more resources than you have. So the relationship. Play the long game with that. That's the number one benefit. Secondly, like, dude, you're not just, you know, the expert in the sea of idiots anymore.

You're aligning your brand with this celebrity brand. And now you are positioned above in the marketplace as a celebrity expert.

It's like borrowed credibility, basically. Or yeah, you're like endorsed a little bit. Because they're on the show, they're prob. Saying, oh, Zach, you're the shit. Like, oh, I love your show. Or this is a fun time. Yeah. Because those are clips that you can now take as like testimonials. You're like, holy crap, Billie Jean or whoever Grant Cardone said this about this show or me.

I mean, I take on my website, I grab whatever, all that. It's right there on the front, above the fold, so you don't have to scroll. It's just right there. Everybody, like the mega stars that's been on my show got a little testimonial of them saying something about the show or myself right there.

Solid.

It's for that purpose, you know, and. And I never have to ask for it. They will say something during the podcast. Oh, we're gonna put that right.

Exactly.

Flip that one out. Thank you. Yeah, man, that's long game. I mean, that's. I'm curious about your long game too, because there's a lot with the relationships you're building. But like with the podcast, where do you see it headed? And also like, what? I guess, where do you see yourself going with the. The podcast service, to the podcast itself, the brand, all that under in general.

Great question. So I. Right now. Because this could change, you know, but right now, this is where it's at. I Compartmentalize, like the podcast and my personal brand and all that stuff is one thing and really I'm how I monetize the podcast is really just do a really good job with the podcast, be the best that I could be at podcasting and just demonstrate that. And then other people like, well, I want that too. And then I help them with my, with the company with podcast Penthouse.

So really the, my podcast just to demonstrate what you can do with a podcast, all these cool things you could do. And yeah, I do monetize it, like affiliate marketing, stuff like that. But it's not like my main focus really. It's really, it's a brand builder, brand awareness, grow the audience of people that really love me and what we're a brand is all about. That's my play fit. Some other people have different, you know, goals and what they're trying to achieve with theirs with their podcast, but have that. And then I have podcast Penthouse, the company that we're building, the agency and that's like the, you know, the livelihood of the business and stuff. And what's cool is that I love doing it. So it's something that I'm very passionate about and get to do a lot of cool things with that. But all that is feeding. And I hate saying this because you got so many cheesy ass entrepreneurs. Like, this is my legacy.

This is how I'm going to bring value to the world or whatever.

My end game right now though, and it's on my vision board that's sitting right next here in my office. 9% recidivism. Recidivism rate nationwide. In the US now, recidivism is like when people come home from prison, do they go back within three years? And so the numbers are actually even skewed if you look at it. But us numbers dwarf any other country. Our system is broken. It's crazy, right? But I'm not sitting here crying about it and I'm not sitting here making excuses for anybody who goes to prison. Because if you go to prison, that's your fault for going to prison. You put yourself in that position. But what I'm building is a resource that isn't currently offered to people coming out of prison, to guys and gals that are just like me, that hey, I fucked up, I'm done. I want to be in my family's life. I want to be a productive member of society. We're going to give them resources and we're going to teach them how to fish, not give them a fish. Because the current System is built on money. It's designed to keep you in the system. It gives you a fish, food stamps, welfare, assisted living. It doesn't build you up as a person to show you how do anything. Keeps you dependent on the system. And then on top of all the classes you got to go to are just bullshit and they don't help. And it's a complete waste of tax paradise anyway. So it's just. It's all built on to keep you coming through that door. Long story short, we're gonna help people come out where we build them up their character and skills, valuable skills in the marketplace, and then we're gonna match them up. We're gonna be an outsourcing agency, basically, and then match them up with other entrepreneurs that we're connected with. Like, hey, dude, we're gonna get top of the line talent that's gonna outwork anybody else that you can find anywhere else here, hire our people. Plus you get tax cut breaks for hiring convicted felons. So let's make it happen. And, and that's how we're gonna achieve the 9% recidivism rate or lower nationwide. And then for the guys and gals that are cut out to be entrepreneurs, because not everybody is, but the ones that are, we're gonna have programs for them to help them get into that faster.

Solid, dude. That's it.

Overall, I love it.

That's a hell of a vision, man. It's like a good North Star right there that everything can point towards, man.

Because that's right on, man.

I've done. I know the foster care system and it's broken. And a lot of that is people find themselves in prison. And.

Fatherlessness is typically a big reason for the cycle. Because I have a vision similar for foster kids, basically, again, stuck in the system and typically they end up in prison and then the cycle. Exactly what you just said. And there's just so much opportunity for everyone out there, but it's like there's not the guides in place right now for them to know any different, I guess, you know, so.

Amen.

Props to you, bro. Yeah, that's. That's right. I want to see where that goes. And I know it's going to be big, you know, with the vision you got.

Thanks, man. Appreciate that, man.

Sure. Yeah.

So one last thing that I kind of, I wanted to chat about too, is, you know, you kind of do these podcast blitz, right, where you go and just go on a shit ton of podcasts all sort of in a row. I remember one time, you Posted a screenshot of like your calendar or something and it was just like back to back to back to back for like a week straight or something. So let's, let's talk about that for a second. Like, what, what's the, what's the sort of thinking behind it? How, how effective is it for growing your show? So, you know, what are some of the results you've gotten from that? Let's dive in there for a minute and then we can kind of wrap up after that.

Yeah, I'll give you the whole entire process, how to do it, all that. So we were kind of talking about that a little bit earlier on the show. We didn't go into the finer details. So the first time I did this, bro, I did 50 podcasts in 48 hours, back to back, 12 hour days, 15 minute episodes with, with five minute break in between. It was brutal. I will never do that again. Wish that on my worst enemy, bro. But it was, it was also cool and I got some really good content on because I'm just sitting here podcasts and getting interviewed and so like, you know, you had a lot of practice and reps.

Were the later episodes kind of turning into like, was your brain just brushed by the time you're like the final episodes?

Every time I've done one of these now, it's like towards the end it's like, all right, I'm still giving it my all, but I'm really excited that this is almost over.

Why 48 hours, was there a reason for that? You just wanted to contain it?

That's part of the process. It's making it, it's making it an event like a, like its own thing, like in hyping it up, because it is. And so what I do now, now I've done this three times so far and, and I'd recommend doing this.

No more than every quarter. I wouldn't do it more than that because if you do it every month, it's going to get, you're going to, you're going to overdo it and then you're going to run through your network in your, in your social media. It's not going to be like an event, an exciting thing anymore. So I would recommend once a quarter at most. That's what I. How I do it once a quarter. But when you do it, you make an event like this thing and you give it a name like, hey, I'm going on this mega podcast or whatever, you know, whatever you want to call it, and I'm looking to go on X amount of shows, you know, on these topics or whatever. But the key things you want to hit on is, hey, when this episode goes live, I say I'm a shit because I have 105,000 total followers across all my social media put together. Say, hey, I'm gonna share this with my social network of over 105,000 people when it goes live. So I'm speaking the benefit, hey, I'm gonna share your podcast with the link to my people. And then, and then I hit him with a variation of my one sentence credibility builder. I always say we could talk about anything from my five years in prison to scaling a six figure business or anything in between. Let me know if you want to jam. And dude, to keep it super. Like the first one was like more written out and I was going through all these things but I found like just the shorter, sweet, to the point, hey, I'm looking to go on a tour on these types of podcasts on these date range. We could talk about these topics. Let me know if you want to make it happen. And then dude, I did two posts last time I did this time. This last one I did 30 podcasts spread out over five days which was a lot better than 50 I would imagine that's doable.

It's still a lot.

But yeah, about six a day. Yeah, yeah, but, but that was way better.

So go ahead, sorry, finish your thought.

Oh no, no worries. Yeah, and, and then you. I did two posts and it booked it up and then that's it. And then I have for me and there's probably a way better because this is something that we haven't even had our Tony, you know, build out. This is just my system and my system suck.

Alright?

I use the cutie for my calendar scheduling tool and I didn't even know now I know that you can create multiple calendars. I didn't even know this at the time, but so what I did is I just went and grabbed a free calendly account and use that specifically for my podcast tour and then block out the times that I want to do and then when people hit up, boom, here, pick out a time and then that way you build in the scarcity and the urgency of hey, you know, I'm going to first people that want to book up these slots, when they're gone, they're gone. This is where I'm doing this tour on, you know, and you're not being a douche about it either. You're just being, hey, this is the time allotted that I'm going to Do.

Yeah, yeah.

To go on this tour.

So. So what kind of results did you see from doing the tour? Like, how did, how did that play out for you, for your show and, and your brand?

The spikes and downloads are awesome. And then, you know, like, you'll get a spike whenever you go on a bigger show or when you go on a bunch of shows. And then some of it will stay right, and some of it you don't have attrition with some of it. And so you just grow a lot faster. And what I'm trying, what I'm reverse engineering right now, because I literally just went on one and like, you'll notice like some, because you go on 30 podcasts in a week, well then you'll have some weeks where five podcasts release your episode that same week, and then you'll see those spikes and stuff. So it's pretty cool. But I'm reverse engineering that. Cooped with celebrity interview. I call it celebrity interviews. But like, you know, like I call Grant Cardone a celebrity because like in the entrepreneurship space, he's a celebrity.

So that cooped with lining up a ton of celebrity interviews. Like right now, starting June 1st, I had Grant Cardone on, and every single episode up until October right now is celebrity interviews, unless I do one solo episode a month. But every single week it's a celebrity type interview. I did that before and when I did that before because I look at my download numbers, like when I got spikes, and then I try and reverse engineer what I was doing at the time, why it worked, and all that stuff. And back in December, in November and December, the very end, like right after Thanksgiving, huge spike. And I looked and at that time I did a lineup like that. I had six or seven back to back celebrity interviews lined up. Plus it was all the podcasts that I went on over time, feeding that. But there was a huge spike where I grew over 6,000 downloads in one month from the prior month. And I'm like, let's reverse engineer that. How do we do that? You know, and so I'm in the process of doing that right now, doing the podcast tours and the celebrity interviews. And we're gonna see if we can recreate. Recreate that growth curve.

Yeah, that's. That's really interesting. I think when we have like bigger names in our industry on this show, I almost feel like those episodes don't even do as good as the shows where it's like the person who's on is like a little like a lesser known person, but they have like some really interesting tactic or something like that that they're sharing with the audience. It's just. It's been interesting because that's. That's been. What we've seen is like the, the ones that we expect, like, oh, this is a big name. Everybody's gonna love this episode. Those ones don't actually seem to do as well for us for some reason.

And that's crazy because it's a reverse for my show. Like, I. It's weird. The reverse on my show is where it's like if it's just an up and coming entrepreneur or somebody that's already well established, but they're not. They don't have a huge brand or whatever, you know, it's not super well known.

Those. They still do. Okay. But like, I'll see bigger spikes whenever I have bigger names on my show.

Yeah. See, the winners are the ones that you just described for us. Typically, like in. And who knows, it's probably the audience and the needs folks listening to us. We did build this podcast on the foundation of systems, processes and tactics and strategies. Not really mindset or hearing the stories from a big name person. Even though we're kind of molding this podcast into what we want, which is becoming more of that. And it's a blend of everything.

Yeah, it's pretty cool too, because I bet you your guys' thing has evolved over time 100%.

And maybe we can chat about that on your show when we're on there, which is gonna be in a few minutes here behind the scenes. See? And you did this right here. I don't know who set it up, but it's like, we're recording this podcast right now, but then right after this, we're gonna go to your show. Underdog empowerment and then freaking. It's just like, what? There's a little mini tour right there. We're having three other podcasts today or two others.

I think two after that.

Yeah. So, yeah, we kind of. It's evolved over time in terms of what we're doing with our show and, you know, batching and systems, but I don't know. I like your approach too, man. I don't know if we're gonna go that aggressive though, with 30 in five days.

But for people wanting to get content out like there. But that's like batch recording to. On steroids, you know?

Yeah, I love the idea. I don't think I've got the energy.

It is, is. It is draining, bro. And like, and like, like, you sit down so long so then your hip will Start hurting. I feel like an old man, dude. I'm only 31.

Yeah. Gotta get a stand up desk. Move around.

Yeah, exactly. Next investment.

That's right, man.

Yeah. One thing I remember you shared with me when we, we chatted on the phone several months back was you had. You have sort of a process for getting people who come on your show to share the fact that they've been on your show after the fact that. Could you go ahead. Can you share that with the audience real quick? Because I thought that was pretty brilliant.

Yeah, dude. So I'm pretty sure you guys experience it. Like when people come on your show, most people don't share it out on social media. And you're like, you're like, what? I don't get it. And like, so now I'm starting to understand that because I won't personally make a post on my Facebook timeline, but I'll share everything on my Instagram stories as long as it's not like on my timeline, because I use my timeline on all my social media so strategically to position myself and whatever it is that we're trying, like running a special promotion, whatever it is, promoting the podcast, but I'm strategically using that timeline. But the stories I use strategically too, but I never mind sharing the stories. And plus Instagram, you get to swipe up stuff, so I get that part. But, but even. So even, even people that aren't necessarily doing that, you just notice that they don't share it. I was trying to wrap my head around, I was like, dude, I was getting frustrated, you know, early on I was like, why? You know, I'm getting people on the show and then they're not sharing it. Why is it so it goes back to the. I use this in so many, so much of the marketing, but the, the Influence book by Robert Cialdini. Just get them to commit before you, even before you even record. Like you're getting ready to record on Zoom or whatever. Like, hey, man, I just got one huge favor or one. One requirement on the show is that, you know, when this goes live, you'll share it out with your audience because it's going to help reach more people. And the more people it reaches, more downloads we get, the higher we climb in Apple Charts.

Yep.

And then the more people are gonna see this that don't know you or me, so the more exposure we'll both get. So that's all I got. Do you agree to share this with your audience when it goes live? Yeah, man, definitely. No problem. Cool. Awesome. Thank you. And then you Go through. Through the. Do the interview, and then by then, you got a relationship with the person. If you don't know them that well yet, and so you're tight anyways. I'm pretty sure you realize podcasts, you build a lot of friendships. It's pretty cool.

That's right.

And then. And then now you got that. And then when it goes live, they hit them up in their inbox where. But, hey, man, that show went live. I want to follow up again. Dude, this was awesome. Appreciate you coming on the show. Really appreciate you agreeing to share this with your audience. Here's some audiograms or whatever, you know, assets to share. Link back to the main episode, the show notes right here. Appreciate it, man. You know, you make it easy for them to share. Use whatever audio gram they like get. Make an audio gram or a video clip of them saying some cool stuff where it highlights them so they want to share it, you know, because people want to look good and stuff, and this is human nature and stuff. And you don't necessarily have to have that, but if you do create that, those types of assets definitely make them look good and then give them the link that you want to go out. Just one. Don't give them the Apple and the Stitcher and the Spotify and all that. Let's give them one link. If it's Apple, give them Apple. If it's your show notes, where you put all the links at, give them the show notes, whatever, and just say, hey, I appreciate you agreeing to share this out with your audience. You remind them that they said that, and then most people are good people, and they'll share it.

Love that. That's so interesting. I didn't know it was him, so. I didn't know it was you, Zach, because I think Matt told us, told me about this, and we haven't done it word for word like that with certain folks on our show, but we definitely will drop it after the fact and kind of talk about what we do with the show after it's done because it turns into all these physical newsletters and videos and blah, blah, blah. We show them all the assets of where this thing's gonna live, and then we kind of like throw it in there. It was like, oh, yeah. And then sharing the show, you know, like, we'll let you know when it goes live. We're gonna give you all these cool things, make it look good, and. And typically, that is where you get kind of like that verbal commitment. And I think we.

I'll give you a verbal commitment now. And it's on recorded, so you can.

Just like press play.

I will share this episode on my Instagram stories when it goes live with a link back to the episode.

Yeah, love it. Well, the quick just on, like, you know, the big name. We're talking big name versus, like up and comer kind of guess. We've actually noticed that more of the big names are the ones that are willing to do the sharing or they're a little bit more like upfront with willing to, like, they actually offer, like, before sometimes we even bring it up. I mentioned Gabby Bernstein as one of them. Or like, I was chatting with her this morning, she's one of them. I was like, hold up. This is like the biggest, like, you know, influencer, social media wise that we've had. And like, here she is, beginning of the episode and ending and even just a message today and multiple times, like, saying, hey, I want to share your stuff. Give me this. I was like, this is really cool because most people are not thinking that way, but.

Well, I feel it's like, it's like the people on the either end, right? It's got like, you got the really successful people that come on your show and then you've got like, like, like imagine a spectrum, right? You've got the really successful people and then you've got like the people who are just getting started. Nobody really knows their name yet. They don't really have, like, much of a brand yet. It's like either end of the spectrum, those people seem to be more willing to share. It's everybody in between where, like, their egos sort of get in the way and they're like, I can't.

Something there. Yeah, it's weird. It's like, that's exactly what's happening, though. And it's. Yeah, it's weird. So I don't know.

It is weird.

There's something there psychologically happening, possibly.

Well, you gotta figure the people that are ultra successful, they got there because they were. They were helpful. They impacted a lot of lives. They, you know, like, they. They know the power that they have in sharing something out, right? And then you got the people at the very beginning who are just like, thrilled to be on your show because their show is sort of bigger than their existing brand, right? So you've got like those two on either side of the spectrum, but then there's the people in the middle that are like, their brand is kind of up and coming. Some people know who they are, but then their egos get in their way and they're like, ah, yeah, I don't need to share this. And it's a very sort of bizarre thing that we've noticed. But you do get some of the bigger names that don't share as well. Like we've had some of big authors and stuff like that that are doing the podcast tours and they're probably on 50 podcasts in one month. And some of those.

True, those ones are tough when they are on a tour. Yeah, that's where you're like, it might get a little hairy or you're caught up in the mix with everything else they're sharing. Maybe me. Yeah, it's a game, but it's a fun game to play. I feel like we're all playing the same game and really it's a relationship game. I feel like we talked about. It's just people and being cool with folks and making friends and seeing where the thing opens up. Like long game, man. That's podcasts in general. But the fact if you can frame this into life, holy shit. Think about the opportunities that are coming from what the three of us are doing in this space and anyone listening who's like hustling consistently and making relationships work like, you never know what's gonna. Like, life will be fine, dude. Don't stress it.

So Will, man. And podcasting is such. So yeah, dude, you can get ranked on Apple, like literally, I've helped, no exaggeration, over 90 people get ranked on Apple in 48 hours or less using that same script that we talked about earlier in the show. So you can get some really quick results. And you're not gonna stay in the ranking unless you consistently have a system that's feeding reviews and you're growing your downloads. But, but the fact that you have your top rated podcast for now, you can use that in your pitch to interview celebrities. You can get celebrities right out the Gad Billy Genus market on my show one week into having a podcast. So you can get all these really quick wins and that's awesome and that's cool to have those quick wins. But the long game, dude, if you just stay consistent with it, you just keep ascending. It's like a. It's like an upward spiral of momentum with it, with the podcast suit of what you can do with your brand, man. It's. It truly is the long game with it.

Well, let's wrap this thing up. I have like this weird question. It's totally not podcast related. It's back to prison, actually. And it's like this weird thing. I feel like the scariest thing that could happen to me is somehow land myself in prison. And it's like this weird. I don't know where it came from. But I'm curious, what are you scared of in life now? Because I feel like you've gone through some shit that most people can't even imagine what that's like, especially five years of it, you know, Like. So is there anything that, like, scares the out of you now?

Man, this is some psychological, some deep stuff. So I had Tucker Max on. I. I had Tucker Max on the podcast recently. Episodes coming out soon. And he. We were. We were talking about childhood stuff. And then I was, I. I gave this response and then, like, it's like you just contradicted yourself a bunch of times. Like, do you even know, like, how you felt when you were growing up or whatever? Because I was saying, like, you know, my mom gave me confidence, but sometimes I didn't have it, but I did or.

And my gut reaction was like, man, fuck you, dude. Like, you don't know me. Whatever. I had to overcome some dark shit in my life or whatever, but. But I didn't because I was like, I was like, hold on. What if he's right? What if there's some stones that I haven't unturned? And let me look at this objectively. But I wanted to be like, fuck you. But I. But I didn't.

And ever said. But even before that, though, like, I've been on this thing. It's like my biggest fear right now is to be at the end of my life with, you know, regrets of man. Like, well, what if I would have just done this? Or, you know, like, and that's not just with my business and success, whatever you want to call success, I'm talking about, like, success with my kids. Like, what if I'd have just spent a little bit more time with them and was there and just played their stupid Minecraft game that I hate playing.

You just described my kids as, well.

With that type of stuff, man. I want to. I don't want to have the regrets of, like, if I could, I'll be cool if I didn't achieve all my goals at the end of life, as long as I knew I did everything I could to achieve them. But if there's. If there's goals that I set out for myself, whether it's goal as a father, a husband, a business owner, a friend, whatever, where I know that I could have done more to make it happen, but I didn't, that would literally make me miserable. So that's like my biggest fear but kind of going back to what Tucker Max had and sorry this might be it slightly along when it answer.

So I'm cool with a lot of people wouldn't say it's been like I have no problem saying this. Like I have an evil side of me that is very capable of very evil things and so does everybody else. I'm just not afraid to say it. You know what I'm saying? Like we all have a dark side. I'm not perfect, but I've gotten really good at using my dark side to do good shit with for an example man, like when I played football as a kid, like I've always been a good person. Like in real I have dark thoughts, emotions and desires just like everybody else does. Like there's, there's times like real, I'm a married man but there's times like a hot ass chick will walk around, I'm a dude, I'm like holy shit, she's fucking I some dark sadistics up. But then I'm like no, she won. There's a wing it ring on my finger. I made that commitment. Can't do that, you know what I'm saying? Like that. But that thought runs still runs through my head though. You know what I'm saying? And there's plenty of other examples but you know, I played football come together, you know, as a, as a camaraderie that with a common goal to win a championship. You know, I'm a good dude, but when we put on those pads and helmets, dude, I'm trying to knock the opponent's head off and we're trying to win. I'm trying to destroy, I'm not trying to be nice or positive. I'm trying to destroy them and win and win a championship and not just win. I want to dominate them and make them look pathetic in, in doing so. Like because you want to, you want to exert your dominance on the field and just, just win that good and be legendary. Like so I've gotten good at doing that. But what Tucker said got me, you know, thinking like Mick. Like he said like, you know, as men we, we go through this phase, you know, like the mid 30ish, you know, into 40s. He's like, man, I was a 41. He's like, how do you think I felt? 41 years old on the couch crying because I had daddy issues or I was like holy shit or whatever. But like there was things in his childhood, you know that got suppressed, you know, and that done a lot with his conditioning. And we kind of. We kind of decoded a lot of it. Like, I have a very addictive. He's like, basically like, dude, all you're. You're just doing the same you're doing before prison. You just are doing good with it now. You got a very addictive personality. You're just. You're building this business or whatever, going all in on that when before you went all in on doing crack and heroin or whatever. It's like he said. But he said, but eventually you're going to get a point where none of it's going to be enough anymore. And I was like, holy.

Yeah. Yeah.

So here. Here's my thing with that, though. So I've been trying to decode since then. I'm like, that. You're basically talking about reaching enlightenment. Enlightenment. I can't say it.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

I don't want to be enlightened because I like the friction in my life. I like having. It's not the getting. It's the doing to get. You know, it's like. It feels. It feels good. Striving for something, man. You know, and. And I want to have something to strive for, but I want to get to a point where it's just like. I don't know. I do got some work to do for sure. There's a lot that. And we all do, but it brought a lot light to the situation, so it was pretty cool.

I love that.

Yeah.

You got to enjoy the journey because the destination may not be what you thought it was. So enjoy. Enjoy the ride along the way, for sure.

Exactly. That's a hell of an answer, man. Thank you for sharing that and appreciate.

Sorry for the long winded answer.

No, that was awesome.

Don't apologize at all, bro.

That's where the gold comes out.

I mean, I'm sure we could probably go a whole nother hour just talking about this topic, but we want to. You know, we're going to record another podcast together, so we got to cut it off somewhere.

That's right.

We'll bring that on over to the other show. Let's do it.

Let's. Well, tell them about the other show really quick now. So if they want to, they could just. Just jump over there.

Well, I don't know if the timings are gonna line up, but.

Yeah, go check out the show.

Yeah, definitely.

Yeah.

Underdog empowerment. We're about to go jam there right now. Come check it out. Hope you. Hope you do. It's on pretty much any podcast platform that you listen to. Podcasts on. But to make it super simple for everybody, you can go to underdogempowerment.com. it's right there on the front page. Hit the red subscribe button. Pick itunes, Spotify, Google Play, switcher, all that good jazz. Hope to see you guys over there. Matt, Joe, dude, this was awesome episode. Appreciate you guys.

Appreciate you, man. Yeah.

And if somebody wants to, like, work with you as, like, on an agency basis or something, same place or somewhere else you want to send them.

Just the underdog empowerment. There's other ways to get a hold of me and stuff like that and reach out. Dm, whatever. I'm pretty cool.

All right, brother Zach, thank you, man. We'll talk very soon.

Very soon.

Thanks so much for tuning into that episode. I hope you dug it. I know Joe and I dug it. I actually kicked Joe out of the room. He's not here right now. Because I wanted to tell you about a tool that I really, really dig. We use it in our business. We recommend it all the time. It's called Easy Webinar, and it's a tool that lets you do live webinars, automated webinars, hybrid webinars, and, you know, pretty much any other kind of webinar, if there are other kinds of webinars. But anyway, this tool is kind of like your all in one, do it all tool for anything webinar related. It's easy webinar. It's put out by a dude named Casey Zieman. He's been on the podcast. If you haven't listened to that episode, it's a killer episode. He's a really smart dude, but his software is amazing. It does everything. It's, you know, the title tells you exactly what it does. It's an easy webinar platform. And we use this in our business to run automated webinars all the time. We don't do a lot of live webinars these days. We like to do the kind of automated webinars where somebody can register and then it, you know, they can either watch it like 15 minutes later or they can watch it the next day, but it's just kind of always running. And it's a system that helps us make autopilot sales off of our webinars. Super cool tool. If you haven't tried it yet, you know, it's, It's. It's an amazing tool. And Casey is actually hooking you up. He said for listeners of Hustle and Flowchart, I can't believe he's doing this, but he said for listeners of the Hustle and Flowchart podcast. He's giving 25% off of the membership to use Easy Webinar. It's already super, super inexpensive for what it does and all the cool features it has, but he's hooking you up with 25% off because you're a listener of Hustle and flowchart. Go to easywebinar.com hustle that's where you can get that 25% off discount. That's easywebinar.com hustole. It's a awesome tool. You're gonna dig it, so just go grab it. Check it out. Easywebinar.com hustle See ya. No, not see ya. You'll hear me in the next show. I don't know. I don't know how to close these things. Go get Easy Webinar. Talk to you later. Thanks everybody for listening to this episode of the Hustle and Flowchart podcast, for taking the time to listen. We want to give you something a little bit special. Every single episode that we do, we actually have somebody on our team take notes. We basically have a Cliffs Notes version of every episode where you can go and find all of the tips and tactics that they laid out, all of the resources that they laid out, all the good stuff from this episode. We actually have a nice simple notes version that you can find on our website. So go to evergreenprofits. Com, find this episode that you just listened to and give us your email address and we'll send you the notes. Thanks for listening.

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