Copywriting Tips With Kevin Rogers and Dean Jackson - I Love Marketing With Joe Polish And Dean Jackson - Episode #160

I'm dean jackson, he's joe polish, and this is the I love marketing podcast. Hey everybody, it's Dean Chat Jackson and no Joe Polish today. A nice break for you from that. So. But I do have somebody very special here. I have a nice special guest today and his name is Kevin Rogers. Hello, Kevin.

Hey, Dean.

Now let me tell people a little bit my perspective on Kevin Rogers because I'm going to ask you to fill in the holes and tell people who you, who you are. But. All right, I met Kevin. How long ago did we meet Kevin? Almost must be eight years ago or so.

Six. It was, yeah, I believe it was 2008 in Chicago.

Okay. In Chicago. I met him at. With John Carlton. He's a good friend of John Carlton. He was at a John Carlton Mastermind event and when John Carlton told me that Kevin Rogers is the greatest copywriter that he knows. So that's nice.

I pay a lot of money to.

Say that it is all right.

It is very expensive.

So I've gotten to know Kevin over the years now and it's been, that's been my experience. Kevin's a really bright copywriter, is a former stand up comic. So he's very funny. I love that about him. But tell me the who is Kevin Rogers story. Wow.

So, yeah, I grew up in, primarily in Florida and I didn't love school wasn't really my thing, so I departed early. My kids listen to these, so I'm careful. I carefully choose my words. My kids are 7 and 10 and so. But I knew I was very gangly, much like you would picture Billy the Kid, although I don't believe there's photos. But very, very lanky and not so good with the girls, so. But I could make people laugh. I really loved stand up comedy and I would remember, you know, guys routines and I could. People would call on me to do them and then I would go off on tangents and I said, hey, this is cool. So some friends kind of dared me to do stand up and I did. I did an open mic night. Scariest, most exhilarating thing I ever did. Got very lucky and had some great mentors take me under their wing. And I quickly got the house and see job at my local comedy club at like, you know, yeah. Like 19 years old. I won a contest. And you know why I won the contest, Dean? The only thing I really, I wasn't so much funnier than the other guys. I did my time. I was the only guy to hit 5 minutes. I did like 457 and one of the judges, which was the comic headlining that week was like, I had to give it to you. You missed it by like three seconds.

Oh, that's so funny. Yeah, the. Is that the comic equivalent of staying on for the full eight seconds, the bull riding?

No, it's actually more like not going over your time is the thing.

Oh, I gotcha. Okay.

Yeah, yeah. So everybody is like, you know, the famous thing with stand up comics is they're getting the light from the back of the room, you know, and they hate when they get the light because it's usually at the pinnacle of their set and they're like, oh, they're lighting me, I gotta get off, you know. Right. So, yeah, so I got, I was able to do. I was doing now about eight shows a week for about a year and a half and developing my jokes and growing my ha.

You know, and, you know, try to.

Be Jim Morrison or something and got to work with guys like Tommy Chong. The first time Tommy Chong ever did stand up comedy solo, I was his opening act. That was really exciting. And so. Yeah, and that was it. So had a lengthy seven year road comedy career. Did all the honky tonks and crazy hotel lounges and places that most sane people wouldn't go for a beer. I had to go in and, you know, entertain. And it really gives you a thick skin. It teaches you a lot about things we use in marketing and copywriting today, like grabbing attention, holding attention, you know, surviving, rebounding, those kind of things. And yes, I didn't really know it at the time, but I was really field testing my persuasion skills back then.

Oh, that's so funny now then how did you make the transition into marketing and copywriting from being a stand up comic? Were you studying it on the road? Were you kind of being introduced to it or how did that happen?

Yeah, totally unexpected. Actually. The opposite of studying from the road. I mean, had no business sense whatsoever, Dean, and none at all. And actually, you know, didn't even like money. I mean, I was opposite of a capitalist, you know, and I was, I just, yeah, I didn't like the business end of any of it. I just wanted to be an artist and show up and do my time and drink some beers and flirt with girls. But then I started to grow up a little bit and all the business sense of maturity I had led me to the conclusion that one thing I couldn't allow to happen was I could not grow old and bitter on the road. And I worked with a lot of comics who were really brilliant. I mean, they would slay the room. But they were, I don't know, a little past their prime and pretty bitter. And you just had a sense this guy's probably never going to get the break he deserves. And, you know, there probably should be an exit point somewhere on this highway that I need to look out for. And what ended up happening was, you know, sort of, I guess maturity intervened and I came to realize through a series of events that I really loved even more than being in the spotlight. I loved the creative process and I loved seeing a project through. A cool thing happened where a Bernie Mac's manager's son. So picture this scenario. Remember Bernie Mack, right? The great cowboy? I do, yeah. Yeah, right. So Bernie, a friend of mine booked me into Bernie's Thursday night gig, which was an all black jazz club. And it was a sort of a. It was like a review show. And the guy said, you know what? We don't ever, you know, it's always, it's a black club. But I think you could do it. I think you could pull it off. Are you up for it? I was like, yes, totally. And so Bernie Mac goes up and does 45 minutes. I'm talking improvised, you know, totally off the cuff. And he's got a 12 piece funk band on stage with him and it's, you know, slam and band, like James Brown level funk. And Bernie Mac is one of the greatest comics to ever live. And he's telling the story about this gig they did over the weekend in Gary, Indiana, and hilarious stories and people are doubled over. And then he would have the band play a song and it was like the greatest show ever seen. And then it occurred to me, holy crap, I have to go be part of the show.

You gotta follow him.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Like, I don't, I don't want to screw this up because it's a great show. It's somehow or another, you know, Bernie, it was hilarious the way he introduced me. He said, he said to the crowd, he said, he said, look y' all at Bernie's this show. Hey, it's all about love. It's all about love. And we just need to open our hearts. And it was almost like he was.

Apologizing, oh, man, dude. Before I got up there, but.

And so he set me up real nice. And I, and I went up and after a bit of a shaky start, I did a funny thing. I said, it's always been my dream to direct a funk band like James Brown. And so I was doing like the arm thing with a bump.

Bon bon Bon Bon.

You know, it was like very awkward and whitish. So that was funny. And anyway, I ended up doing well. And, and, and so from that, Bernie Mac's manager, her son, I think he needed something to do. He was trying to earn a paycheck from his mom. His mom was Bernie Mack's manager. And so he said he. We. He wanted to manage me. So we came up with this idea to create. This was ahead of my time, Nadine. I. My idea was to create wwe. Kmdy. No, it was kmdy. All Comedy Radio Network.

Right.

Okay, that exists today. But that was my big idea. So we ended up, me and my buddies, one of them being Billy Gardell, who's now the star of Mike and Molly.

Back when we were just, you know.

Scrappy road comics, we created a whole pilot of this show. And it was through that it never went anywhere. It never even made it out of the studio because I think the guy didn't pay the studio or something.

But.

But the process of creating that demo made me fall in love with writing and, you know, project management and producing. And I thought, you know what? I don't need to be in the spotlight. I really dig this whole creation process. And so that's what planted the seed for me. And I said, all right, you know, I can look for some other way to make money creating. And it doesn't have to be with a microphone in my hand.

Oh, right on. And so then how. What was the catalyst? That was the kind of next step that got you into what was your first thing that you did in business or marketing.

Yeah.

So I'll tell you.

There was a guy named. So then an old comic friend of mine was running a marketing company and he was selling timeshare resale. And now that's a pretty. That can be a shady market. But he was one of the good guys and he was doing his best to run the company. Right. And he hired me because he knew he could trust me. He said he knew I needed work I was doing. I was off the road and I was doing, like, bartending and bell hopping and these kind of jobs that were just no resume jobs because what was I going to do? I was thinking, should I go back to college or, you know, should I. I got my GED and I was gonna go to college. I even thought about being a cop, you know, which was crazy. And so that guy hired me just to learn the ropes. Four months later, I'm running the guy's company because he's on the verge of a stressed out heart attack. And, yeah, and so he hires a guy named Chris Thomasulo to consult for his phone room. And Chris and I become fast friends. And Chris is a direct response marketing savant. And so I'm riding around in Chris's car with him, and he's. He's listening to people talk, right? And I'm thinking, what is the matter with this guy? Like, turn on some music or something. I say, what are you listening to? He's like, oh, these are these great marketers. It turns out it was Gary Halbert's. There's like a bootleg version of what's probably the triple X series or one of those really underground. So I had no idea. I thought this guy was really strange for driving around listening to this stuff, but he slowly started to tell me about it and got me really hooked in. And, you know, it's funny, Dean, this is sort of full circle is the one way he made it all make sense to me. He said, you know, there's a guy who charges $25,000 so that carpet cleaners can learn how to better market their business. And I said. And I said, now, come on now, why in the world would a carpet cleaner pay somebody $25,000 to spend a weekend with him? And he said, because he teaches them make millions with their business. And I said, okay, that makes sense. And so, yeah, so that was, of course, Joe. And that's when it all clicked for me. And then I started reading Carlton and I started reading, studying Gary Halbert letters and got into, you know, Michael Fortin at the time was very actively sort of teaching and blogging. And he had a. Remember that great message board, Copywriters board?

Yeah, yeah.

And so that's when I really got my education and started getting my first clients. And here we are.

Oh, that's amazing. And now look at you now. Now you're one of the top copywriters you've got. Just wrote a new book, which I'm very excited about. 60 second sales book, which a great title, by the way.

Thank you. Yeah, it's funny how that title came to be. Should I. Should I tell that story?

Yeah, of course. Let's talk about that because it's very exciting.

Yeah. So, well, this. What is the 62nd sales hook?

Evolve.

It started as I made this thing up in a few minutes, as all great ideas usually happen because I needed an opt in bribe, right? And I thought, I'll create like a little quick sales formula. And I called it the KLT formula, which stood for know like and trust because it was Specifically designed to quickly establish know I can trust with anybody who hears this message.

Right.

So I kept selling it as this, you know, or like not even just presenting it. I a few people invited me to present on their stages and then I needed something so I said oh, that KLT thing would probably work and every time I did it people would love it, they'd go crazy for it. And so then I decided aha, so smart. Yeah, I'm gonna write a book and it's going to be all about this, this, this KLT factor. I'll call it KLT factor. How to immediately establish no like and trust with anyone you meet. Even if your strange, shady and up to no good or something. I'll take a long pretty subtitle.

Right? Yeah.

I thought I was really clever and so I was working on the book for a year and then I did the greatest thing I've done in my business. I joined your mastermind and I and we're sitting around and you go around the room and you say to everybody, you know, what's going on with you? And I said well, I'm excited about this book I'm writing and I didn't even know about 90 minute book by the way at this point.

Right.

You said oh great, what's it about? And I just went into that long title and description that I just told to you and everybody was like, okay, huh, yeah, that's a good idea. And then. And you said I don't know, maybe, maybe there's a. Is there a quicker way in the title to get across what it is? And I said well, another way I reference it is the 62nd sales hook in the whole room. Every, everybody cracked up because they're like, you idiot. That's the title, you know.

Yes. It's just so much clearer.

So yeah, that was, that was a.

Fun, that was a fun thing. I love the way. And that's often how those titles happen. I mean, you know, some of the best ones we were, I was doing Breakthrough blueprint event in London and in this one group we had that came out of that. Hypnotize your husband was one of the titles that came out of that. The Fire free work day was another one for a guy who did corporate training and the skinny jeans solution and the influential introvert. And there, you know, it was just kind of when, when you hear a title that you immediately don't have to explain any more about it, you know, you're on the track. Like you know, when you say the 62nd sales hook, you know what that is about. You have to. Now you're interested in hearing more about it. So it's. I've learned a lot about. About book titles and stuff, doing this whole. The 90 minute book that. The 90 minute book. That's a title that. That lets you know what it is. So, yeah, very exciting. So continue then. Keep on. Carry on.

Yeah, well, you know, off of what you're just saying. And it's. It's just so funny how much you can get in your own way, really, if somebody doesn't go, you said the greatest thing to me. And I was still wringing my hands and toiling over. I want to make sure that the book is meaty enough. And it's. It's got to be meaningful. And you. There's other things out there too much like it. And you said to me, you said, hey, here's an idea. Why don't you give your writer a vacation so that you can become an author? That's the most profound thing anyone said to me in a long time because it just allowed me to stop thinking and just do the action. The first 80%, man. You know, and literally, Dean, it's changed my life completely changed the trajectory of my business in one fell swoop, you know, we. And then right at that moment, you and I set a deadline and you said, when is your book going live? And I said, in four weeks. And you said, all right, that's like February 17th. That's when your book goes live. Something. And then that was it. It happened. And it's just, you know, going back to the title. It is that simple. That was the beauty of it. Like, the whole book is meant to be the simplest thing you've ever done in your life that really gets you results, you know, and it hates it pays that off. And. But by having a big, stupid, bloated title like the KLT Factor and all this stuff that people had to sit there and unpack for themselves before they can understand what it is completely was disjointed to the. To the actual material in the book. Right. So it's fascinating how. How much will stand in our own way if we let ourselves.

Well, it's so, you know, we use shortcuts. We really do use shortcuts. We know instantly when we hear something, whether we're interested in it or not. And I think that that is. That's one of the things about compelling people. You know, like when you're using a book in profit activator 2 to compel somebody to raise their hand, it really is all about the fact that you have a book and you have a title that immediately upon hearing it, the person that you want to be in conversation that says I want that book. And you got to have a way to get it to them. So those three things, that's really, that's the formula to get your profit activator to completely solved. And you know, he realized then I just been really kind of paying attention to the, what motivates us and the way we do things. And in all these conversations that I've been having and conversations with Dan Sullivan. And then he came out with his 80% approach and realizing the same thing, that 80% of the success of a book is really just based on the title alone and the fact that you, you've got to have a book. I would say nobody knows how many pages a book is before they decide that they want it. You know, they never look at the, the count, the page count, whether they want something. I mean it's, it's. They don't know whether it's 50 pages or 250 pages. So you might as well, if you can concisely tell the story in 50 pages, do that because it's so much more valuable to just get the conversation started.

That's right. Yeah. That's the key is they get the conversations started. And you know what's interesting is the things I was most afraid of with the book are the things that people have liked the most about it, right? I was scared of two things mainly when it came to this book. One was that it was only 50 pages. It's actually 52 pages. And I thought it's a free book. I go, who's gonna complain? Right? But I still thought, well, people are gonna disregard it because it's short, right? Or especially if they buy it, it's five bucks on Amazon. And I'm thinking, oh. And so the other thing I was. And people as thanked me, thank you for only keeping it as long as it needed to be because we're all too busy to read. And the other thing I was afraid of was that I, so what I, my solution was I said, I already have this material. I don't even need to do what's the amazingly simple 90 minute book process. I've presented this material, so I'll just transcribe that and that will be the book, right? And so I left it in. And you told me to just leave it in transcribed format. Don't spend two weeks rewriting it and formatting it. Just leave it. It's Fine.

And I was sending, we'll take it from there.

That's it, that's it. And I was afraid of that because I thought, well, then now, really, people, the jig is up. Because they're going to say, this isn't even a book. Look at this, it's a transcribe. But what was amazing was because as you, as we talked about, I have a background in stand up. So my live presentations.

Are a little.

Different than what people are used to in marketing circles. It's pretty colorful and I strive to get laughs. And so the transcriber would have my name and what I said, and then it would say, audience, you know, laughter.

I love that.

Groans or something. And it turns out that that was a real road marker for people as they read the book, even if they were getting maybe a little distracted or something, they do, oh, or they're about to put it down for the night, or they go, wait a minute up here, there's another laugh. So I got to see what he said to make the crowd laugh. And so people have loved that. And they said to me, you know what, I'm so glad you left it in that format because I felt like I was in the room watching you on stage.

Right. That's interesting. You know, that whole thing. I mean, the way we do the make a transcript, okay, is we add just a little, you know, an intro note, like a letter that's just kind of in, in your voice saying, hey, this is the story. Here's what this is. And what follows is a transcript. So you're not trying to pass something off on something that it isn't, but you conveniently packaged it up in a book. I can't tell you how many people have come emailed me and said, you know, I can't.

I don't.

I never really read books, but I read the 90 minute book all the way through in one sitting. And so it's like, you know, wow, I can't believe it's really that simple. And so when you look at it, that the value of just getting your main point across, of having a conversation and, you know, the, the book is really just a tool to start the relationship and go and go so much deeper. So let's talk about what, what happened with the book, how you kind of using it to start conversations and to build relationships and then, and I'd love to talk a little bit about what's in the book too, a lot about the 60 second sales look, but let's talk about using the book as a Mechanism and what your experience has been with that and how different than maybe any other lead generators or whatever you've been using. You've probably got a lot to compare it to.

That's right, I do. Yeah. Because as you know I'm a copywriter. My specialty is launch copy. So I've done I don't know how many launches very big names launches over the years and often there's a pre launch sequence. Right. So there's three videos over three or four days and there's all this hubbaloo and build up and hype and it's great, it's a system, it's the Jeff Walker and it really works and it's great. But this is the polar opposite of that. All that energy and just like you said, immediately letting somebody know I've got something really cool that you're going to love.

Right.

So again like following like my motto on this is like stop thinking and listen to Dean, shut up and do it. And that has been really like the psychological takeaway for me from this again the focusing on that 80% factor and just not allowing myself to get in.

The way of it.

But so the first amazing thing is the opt in page which I completely modeled off of your 90 minute. No, no your email mastery same exact page and that thing can same.

That's the same one that is that at 90 minute book too. It's the same. That model of just a, I mean just so we could describe it for people is literally the simplest, craziest opt in page you've ever seen. It's just a picture of the book, the headline, a little bit of a description of what it is and leave your name and email, it all fits on on one screen and no new information. That's all it is. So yeah, so that that landing page. But I've never seen opt in rates like I get with the short, just single, single focus like that.

That's right. It's incredible. So you told me your email mastery from the success ad was converting very high which is impressive off of a magazine ad because there's a little effort involved. They have to go right get to the webpage and see it and confirm that it's what they want. So there's a lot of psychology there and for me is I didn't screw with the model left it. So right out of the gate and I'm mailing to my lukewarm blog subscriber list and I'm coming off of social media, just posting it up on my Facebook pages which are again I'm no superstar. I just people who know me, follow me. Great. But I'm getting out of the gate. 82% conversion rate on this page and at its peak, 94.6% opt in rate.

Wow, that's crazy.

That's just unheard of. I was at John Benson's, you know, $10,000, you know, deep insider training at his house in Malibu. And, and I showed your page and as an example, he asked me to present what I've been doing with this. And everybody said, oh, wow, that's really so simple looking. And John said, Kevin, what did this page convert at? And I said, you wouldn't believe me if I told you. So let me show you a screenshot of the opt in rate. And there was an audible gasp in the room. These are high level copywriters. No one had ever seen an opt in rate that high. So again, just simplicity, stay out of the way of it. Tell people exactly what they want to see and, and they'll take the action you want them to take.

Mm. It's absolutely true because you're just, you know, there's. The thing is that, that I've been sharing with people and on a lot of the last episodes, this idea of just focusing on the compelling and not trying to convince people. You know, like Profit Activator 3 is about educate and motivate. But I draw a hard line between compel and convince because that's really what the, if you break it down to one word, what Profit Activator two is about is compel. And what Profit Activator three is about is convince. And what I see, and you probably see it a lot as a copywriter when you're critiquing things, is that people are trying to convince people in their lead generating ads, you know, if you're, if you don't have their name, if you're trying to turn an invisible prospect into a visible prospect, just focus on the cheese. We talk about all cheese, no whiskers, you know, just the compelling thing that's going to get them to raise their hand. So.

Right.

That just. And the new philosophy that I have around landing pages, and that one specifically is to not add any new information. I'm not adding anything, especially if I'm bringing cold traffic to a page. And by the way, so even on cold traffic, we're converting over 60% on that landing page across the, across the board. So it's, you know, not 90% but 60% and better is really cold.

It's unbelievable. Yes, yes.

Or paid advertising people who you don't know. And so that, that alone is, is really sort of confirmation to me that the, the value of not adding any new information. Whatever you said in the ad, like, you know, you're, you're offering a book called the 60 second sales hook. You're offering a free book called the 90 minute book or Email Mastery or whatever it is. Whatever you said in the ad was enough to get them to click. And now that they're at the page, it's almost like you don't need to add any more information there because now they have to. In order to not opt in, they have to, to question their sanity in a lot of ways. Right? Because it's like, yeah, I wanted this enough to click on it. I mean, I look at it that I just look at this page as the equivalent of, you know, instructing somebody. Hey, just come on down to this office building, walk down the hall here. It's, it's door number 32. And then you get down the hall and you see a door that says door number 32 and you're there would be the equivalent of turning around and leaving. If you come to go to 432, you're at least gonna open the door. Right? That's the, that's the, the mindset that I have of just make it match exactly what it was that got them there and then give them the, the option to, to leave their name and email to get your book and exactly what they would. That's been the best thing that I've seen.

So, yeah, you know, in addition to that, you also don't need to over explain what's in room 432. Right.

You don't know exactly.

You don't have like the room number is the headline and then 10 bullets saying inside this room you'll see leather chairs and a sink if you want to wash your hands. And you just, you know, it's a conference room, walk into the door, you know. Right.

That's exactly it. And that's what I say by convincing is they're trying to say too much that you don't need to say unnecessarily trying to say too much. So you strip it away, put the focus on, here's the cheese. Just leave your name and email and you can have all this wonderful cheese. Now once they leave their name and email, now you've opened a whole new world. Now you can start educating and motivating them. Now you can engage with them.

So yeah, and so this is where to me it gets really the most exciting because, yeah, I've been preaching for years to marketers and clients and people that I turn away as clients is primarily for the reason that I don't feel like they're really out to serve their audience. And I don't say that to be judgmental. It's just that there are certain amount of type of marketers out there who only look at numbers, they don't see faces. Right. And what I tell people when they say I'm frustrated for this or that reason, and I'll begin to ask them, well, have you surveyed your list or have you ever gotten on the phone with your buyers or what do they really want? Because that's the best way to create a product. And they'll just kind of look at you like the RCA dog and think, why when the heck would I do that? I don't want these people knowing who I am or. Right. Expose myself to people or if I ask them what they want, they may think I don't, I don't know what they want or I don't know what I'm doing, you know, which is Right. Right asinine, you know, and so, so I've been preaching this for years about, you know, have a dialogue, you know, the money comes out of the dialogue. And, and so this is the first time though, because normally I'm not creating other people's campaigns and I'm not always privy to the entire process. You know, I'll sort of create it for them and hope that they do what I set it up to do and then, you know, kind of move on to the next gig. So this was the first time that I got to actually engage and guide that dialogue and this is where it got really exciting. So let's talk about the emails, Dean, because you sat on the phone with me in about four and a half minutes and you wrote, you said it and I typed it and those were the emails I sent out. It was three emails and it was a total of about seven sentences in three emails. And it's magic what it does. I can show you, and I have shown you a lot of responses I get from people where they're either telling me their life story over a two sentence email I sent them and having this incredible conversation with me, or they're literally calling out the fact that they can't believe they're responding to an autoresponder because they're, they're marketing savvy and they're like, I know this is an autoresponder, but I typing anyway, I Don't know why I'm doing this. And I'll type back to them. I'll think, yeah, how weird is it that I'm responding to a guy that just responded to an autoresponder? What's wrong with me?

You know, right dialect.

And so, you know, do you want to tell what's in those messages?

Yeah, why not?

Let's share. Okay. This is. This is good stuff. I mean, you know, so. So the first. Okay, so people, you know, opt in for the book and they just get a little welcome message in my process because I have a couple bonuses I also want to give them. I actually give them the video to the presentation that the book is transcribed from. Now they get to actually see me on stage doing it, which is cool. And then I also give them a quick sort of a little worksheet to use the hook and feel almost like a mad lib, fill in the blank type thing. And so that's the first email, welcome. But when they opt in, they immediately get the book. And then in the email, they. They opt in to get the bonuses. 44% of people who got that email took the extra step to register for the bonuses, which I think is very high. And then the second email, the autoresponder that goes out says, you know, hey, Dean, dot, dot, dot. You're one of the first to download the 60 second sales hook. Smiley face, next line. What business are you in? Question mark. That's it.

Yes.

Not another word. Nothing. And you had to sit there. And I kept going, okay, well, what's. What, you know, what's. After the. Should I.

And then what? And then what?

You kept having to go, no, no, that's all. And I'm like, I don't.

You sure?

Like, you know, bullets or something. You know, it was the sign on the door. I wanted to oversell what was in room 432. You know, and so the response to that email, that simple. What business are you in? Is just. That is the one single thing aside of the book. You're having the book as the conduit that has completely changed my business and allowed me to think and understand exactly what it is people need for me and how I can serve them in new ways that just were never even on my radar before. Right.

And, you know, let's talk a little bit about that, because the, you know, the psychology of how that. What's going on there, you know, it's really about if email is a dialogue, which it really is. I mean, it's just a tool that we're using. And I've often. I mean, my whole thought around this is I really believe that email often is a more intimate kind of communication than even talking to somebody on the phone. You know, a lot of times people are really sort of, especially in real estate, they're very anxious to get people on the phone. They don't think somebody's a good lead until they can get them on the phone, you know, And I would prefer to have an email dialogue with somebody because they're much less guarded, I find. I mean, they're much more, you know, they can take some time and think through what they want to say. And, you know, we've been joking about, you know, door number 432, that that's often. Well, it is exactly how I craft these email dialogues. And I look at them where I'm imagining I'm sitting in the chair right now, that I sit in to do these in my office here in Florida, and I'm looking at a glass door where people can walk in. And I just imagine somebody opening the door and coming in. And I imagine that what was on the other side of the door is the opt in. So they've just opted in for a book called the 62nd Sales Hook. And they walk in the door, and now what would I say to them? How would I have that conversation? You know, and so it's almost like there you have that kind of, you know, short. That's the way real conversations work.

Right.

One thing at a time. A dialogue is like, yeah, tennis match, you know, nobody's. You don't know how. You don't know where it's gonna go until they say something back. You say something, then they say something, and you say something. But the skill is to think and manage that dialogue like a chess master, knowing that three moves from now, you know where this conversation is headed. But you don't have to start out and get it all in in the first conversation. You can start, you know, having a dialogue with people.

Yeah.

And it's just as valid by email, you know. That's right.

And that's what you kept telling me that day on the phone is like, this is a dialogue. It's their turn to talk. Wouldn't you. Wouldn't you do that in real life? If we were buddies, you'd say, dean, how was the movie you saw yesterday? And then you wouldn't go on to tell me all the different reasons you needed me to explain it to you.

Shut up and let me answer. You know? Yeah.

And you know, what's Interesting is, I think that's brilliant about email being intimate. I hadn't really thought of that before, but if you think about how we behave now, when your phone rings, if you're not ready for the call, you ignore it and you think, okay, I know what this is, and I need to get back to it. But with an email, you'll sit and like, what I do all the time is I save it as unread so I don't forget to respond to it. But like you said, I want to give it some thought, and I want to give the right response and the meaty response and maybe check my spelling, compare, you know, depending on who I'm sending it to. And it's something. You really get involved in the process of replying to an email.

And I think even. Even if you were able to have those. A real conversation on the phone with people, it's there still, it takes a while until you get to the point where they feel comfortable enough that you're having an authentic communication where it's not guarded. I mean, a lot of times I describe those sort of initial sales conversations as, you know, your sock puppet talking to their sock puppet, when really all the. If you could see all the stuff going on in the back of their minds, people are. They're so guarded. They're trying to figure out what's his angle, where is he? Where's this going? You're trying to say, you know, you try and to think, you know, always be closing. Always be closing. Remember all these things, right? I think that it breaks down that portion of it that when you actually do have a conversation with somebody, it's like they are. You're already through all of that initial awkwardness, and now you're having an authentic conversation, you know, So I think ultimately it's a. It's a big win. One of the things that we do with real estate agents, like, my favorite question now to ask in an email is to ask people, would you prefer to talk by phone or by email? And give people a choice. Like, so often, you know, the. When we're generating real estate leads, the realtors, they all want to, like, get on the phone. They all want to, you know, it's a good lead if they'll be left a phone number and, you know, it's a required field, all those kind of things. They want to, like, you know, get to somebody on the phone because they figure that that's a more serious prospect than somebody who's not willing to get on the phone. And, you know, I just Think it's such a hassle to try and get somebody on the phone and actually so inefficient in a lot of ways because you can only really call somebody in certain hours to be able to reach them. You know, if you're reaching them at home, it's like, you know, you don't want to call too early because it might be eating dinner, or you don't want to call too late. So you got this small little window and people are very rarely ever home anyway. But the thing that's so beautiful about email dialogues is that they're asynchronous. You know, it doesn't matter. You could do it at 11 o' clock at night or you could do it at 6 o' clock in the morning. You can't call somebody at 6 o' clock in the morning, but you could send them an email and they can reply. And I think everybody that you know and I know is never more than six feet away from their cell phone at any given time. And if they get more than six feet away, their freakout alert goes twitch. They start to switch and start, you know, everybody, you've seen people checking their pockets and looking around. Oh, it's over there across the room. And they feel such relief when they go and get it. But I mean, just to be able to, you know, people can respond quickly. And I think these shorter dialogues are so very like iPhone and smartphone friendly, you know, that you can even just peck away at responding in a short conversation kind of way, you know.

Yeah, yeah. Like imagine say somebody's, everybody's busy, so somebody's at the car wash, you know, get the car washed and they're sitting there while they're on the bench while.

Their car goes through.

And that's one of those rare moments in a day where you really like, you're just locked down. There's nothing much you can do in that, like four minutes that your car's being washed. And they, so what do they do? They, they check their email and if you were to call a person in that moment, they probably wouldn't answer because they only have in the car wash that.

That's right.

But if they're going to check their email and if you send a two sentence email to somebody who already digs you from what you gave them and you just ask, what, hey, what business are you, hey, there's that Kevin guy with that cool book that I, I need to get around to reading and he wants to know what business I'm in. Well, what could, what could he want to know that this could lead to something good for me. Let me answer this guy. And so, you know, I've gotten one word answers that you can tell were typed, you know, auto corrected poorly. And, you know, like, so they will actually sit there and go, let me dash off a reply to the guy. But again, no, no, I'm in the dialogue, you know.

Yeah, well, that. And it's okay. That's part of being a chess master is knowing that it's okay that they're gonna respond with one word for now, because it's the equivalent of, you know, if you saw them at Starbucks and you. You said, you know, hey, Kevin, like, you, you know, you kind of recognize them, but then you ask them a question, they're kind of gonna turn around and go, oh, are you talking to me? Like, they want to be sure that this is somebody. But you're. You're so right that even the most seasoned marketers, people who. Who, you know, they can't believe that they're responding to an autoresponder that's kind of their. The way that they think, but they feel compelled to do it anyway.

Right.

Our compelling self interest always overrides. So they're doing it, but in the back of their mind, they're thinking, this isn't really Kevin or this isn't really Dean. And they kind of sometimes will allude to that, or they'll say, you know, if they're seasoned marketers, they'll say something that, you know, is this really. That's really. Whether they say it overtly or whether they're actually thinking it is. Is this an autoresponder? And I can't. I can't tell because it looks so real. It feels real. It sounds like somebody would really say those words to me and you. I always joke about it, that it takes a lot of careful choosing of words to make it seem like you haven't carefully chosen your words. So even though they seem so, they seem so. So just off the cuff, there's a lot of. There's a lot of thought and a lot of stuff that goes into carefully choosing those words. Almost a lyric. There's almost a lyrical element.

That's right.

You know where.

Yeah. I was gonna say one more thing about that. You know, we keep hearing this term, pattern interrupt. Right. We've been hearing this for years. This, to me, is the ultimate pattern interrupt, because it's interrupting the interruptive pattern. Everybody's so used to recognizing what a marketing message looks like that when you send one that looks exactly Like a real conversation. And like you said, it takes a lot of thought to make it look like that. Then it lets their guard down. And my favorite responses are the ones that say they'll answer me sincerely and then they'll literally say, but that's all I'm gonna say for now until I find out that you're an actual human being. They audibly soft themselves.

You know, that's exactly it. Whether they, whether they overtly say it, you know that what they're thinking is. And so much of being a great copywriter is understanding the dialogue that's already going on in somebody's head. The conversation. So they're looking at this and they're like, huh, okay, that looks like it's only for me. And it seems like Kevin's really talking to me. I'm gonna reply. But they don't want to. It's almost like you're, you know, sort of, you hope that it really is you, but they don't want to look stupid at the same time because if they type off long reply to this short email and it really is just an autoresponder that they're, you know, they are reluctant. So when they do that, and now you reply to their reply with something that indicates that you're really like, this really is one conversation. And I'm, I'm adding to the dialogue that we're having now. They're, they know that they really have the attention of somebody who cares, that they're in this conversation, that this person really is communicating only with me. And it's okay now to let down their guard and send you what I call the love letter. And love letters now when they start sharing, they're very open and they're, they're, you know, forthcoming and they, they go that extra mile to kind of just communicate and let you know. It's so, it's funny because the whole point of it, the whole thing about lead conversion is that we're only looking for five star prospects. So for a five star prospect, somebody who's willing to engage in the dialogue, who's friendly and cooperative, who knows what they want, who knows when they want it and would like us to help them, that's a five star prospect. And you can't really help somebody who doesn't know even one of those things, who doesn't meet one of, you know, which one of those would you want to give up? You know, none. And they're, they're progressive just like that. So we're starting out. Are they willing to engage in the dialogue. Yeah, they replied to that email. Are they friendly and cooperative? They replied again when I replied and they're telling me about things now. Do they know what they want? See this, all of this dialogue going back and forth is only designed to get the next light to come on. I always view it like the stage lighting at the drag races, you know, where the first light comes on and then the second and the third and then they're off, you know, and it's that same thing as you're progressing and you only progress the conversation until you know whether they meet that next one. So once they prove that they're willing to engage and that they're friendly and cooperative, now we want to know do they know what they want? And until you know what they want, you know, it doesn't matter whether they know when they want it. And if they know what they want, then you want to find out when do they want it. And there's no reason that they should shouldn't want to get it now. And if they, whatever, whatever their timeline is now, you can in, in number five, make your prescription, you know, they'd like us to help them. Right, here's how I can help you. Here's how I can help you.

That's the.

And you don't know how to write the right prescription until you've got all of the information, you know, that's so.

Great, it's so true. And again, and you just have to learn it over and over to follow it. You're reminding me of things I've learned through this process that I've already forgotten because it's been, there's been so many lessons. But I think I remember texting you and saying something to the fact that what's great about this is that I'm serving everyone until I find out, you know, who's the most qualified for my services.

Right.

And you said back to, to me kind of what you just said about, you know, I treat everyone like a five star prospect until they prove to me that they're not one.

Right.

And that's again the opposite of how most marketers approach things. And what's great about say like this 60 second sales hook and it being so simple is that I'm able to sort of reward the com, the conversation as it builds as people sort of tick off the boxes that they are really this five star prospect. Because the next thing for me is I say they've written me the love letter and we've talked back and forth in email and I'll say to Them, hey, you know, how, how's your hook? How's it shaping up? Did you, did you fill out the four sentence formula? And they'll go, yeah, I did. And they'll send me their hook. And sometimes it's, you know, three words away from being perfect and sometimes it's a hundred miles wrong, you know, off course.

Right, right.

And so I get to write them back and say, and I've made videos for just one person where I have their screen capture and it's their, you know, hook that they sent me their email on my screen and I talk them through it and I say, hey, it just struck me why you're having trouble with this. It's this part here and when you figure this out, this will all fall in line and they can't believe it. I mean, you know, here's this guy, this top copywriter and. But I wake up in the morning thinking about that dialogue way more than I think about all the million dollar campaigns. I mean, I love that and I love my clients and all that. But once you mastered the big thing that you do and then you create something even more simple that helps people, you know, flash light bulbs in their lives. That's really exciting, you know.

Yeah, I enjoy that like that. It's so funny. It's the same kind of thing. I get more joy out of, out of that. Checking the, the dialogues, the emails that have come in almost as much as checking the stats.

Right.

Checking the sales stats or the opt in status. To me those are just numbers. But the email dial or what's the exciting thing? So cool. Let's talk a little bit about the process, about your idea of the 60 second sales because that's really a. I think everybody needs one. It's kind of a perfect thing. So let's talk a little bit about it. Sure.

Okay. So it really is kind of a perfect solution for anybody who struggled with their sales message. And what I love about this formula is that I see it all the time and other people see it and they send it to me in all these different forms. Like one person sent me a picture of the menu at There's a restaurant to Tijuana Flats and you probably know it, it's Florida, right? Yeah. And next time you're in there, Dean, look at the hour story card. It follows the 60 second sales formula perfectly. But what's great about it, it doesn't feel. It's not a sales message obviously, but formula, it can be used in many different ways. I've seen it used in Ford commercials. Weight Watchers of Jessica Simpson classic direct response sales letters, you know, everywhere. And so I'll tell you where it comes from. And one example I use, here's how I discovered it, is because, you know, I did stand up comedy. Forgive me one second. I have to let my dog out before she scratches my door.

Okay, no problem.

Real world moment. Hang on here.

Yeah, This is really good, isn't it? We're hearing some good stuff here. I love to get inside the mind of a great copywriter. Kevin. Got some really exciting stuff about these 60 second sales hooks. Sorry about that.

Yeah.

Okay. Okay. Talking about you while you were gotten.

Okay, all right.

Well, it's all true.

So, okay, so in stand up, this, for a stand up comedian, the best thing that can happen to you in your career is that you get a nationally televised guest spot, right? So you'll get your five minute spot on Letterman or Jimmy Fallon or Jimmy Kimmel. And that is the best showcase you'll get. And it goes back to the Johnny Carson days. You probably know these stories, Dean, that if you would go on Johnny and do well, there were two stages of killing it on Carson. One would, would be you get, you get the, the okay sign from Johnny and that meant that he liked you and you'll probably be back. If you really kill it, he'll call you over after you're set and want to talk to you and you'll do panel for like a minute. And that means it used to make a comics career overnight, but the stakes are still very high in that scenario because now it's being replayed on YouTube and all these things. So what you want to do as a comic and that scenario is the very first thing that comes out of your mouth needs to establish your Persona. And the reason the criteria for choosing a comedian to be on one of these late night shows and the national showcase is that you really have to have a voice, what they call a comedic voice. And because ultimately what everybody wants is to get you on TV or to get you a comedy special for you to grow a tribe or fit. Fit into a sitcom or something. That's what happened with Ray Romano, his first Letterman. So good that a year later, Letterman was producing a show called Everybody Loves Raymond. And they both made a ton of money.

Right?

Wow.

Yeah.

Yeah. So when I started, when I came up with this formula, I started to research when the comics use this. It was at that very moment the first joke that they do on a national spot. And in the, in the formula goes like this. I call it the, the Persona, joke, formula. And here's the formula. It goes identity, struggle, discovery, surprise, right? Because all jokes have to end on a surprise and that's why we laugh. So a great example is a comedian named Karen Rontowski. When in her first Letterman shot, her opening joke was, my kids were so bad in Walmart today that I took a fly swatter off the shelf and I smacked them with it. And the second the fly swatter hit their ass, I realized I don't have kids.

That's funny right there.

I mean, it's a great joke, right?

That's perfect.

Now just think about, and it follows the formula to the T. And just think about in about what, 15, 20 seconds everything we just learned about Karen Rutowski, that she is not a mother, she probably doesn't love kids, she shops at Walmart just like us and can't stand crazy kids at Walmart. We have all these things to relate to her about now, right? And she has set for what to expect from her as, as a, as a, as a comedian, as a presenter. And that's why the rest of her set killed because they, we were on page together now, right? Oh, so now in marketing, three of the first three steps say stay exactly the same because people want to feel close to you and identify with you for the same reasons. But surprise isn't really the thing we're looking for in marketing. And also you couldn't task like if I told marketers, you have to come up with a twist at the end of each of your stories, this thing would die in the water. Because now everybody creative, right? And, but what's great about that is that's not required because what people really want when they're listening to a marketing message is the result. It's not a surprise. They want to know the sure outcome, the opposite of surprise. Tell me. So in marketing, the formula is identity, struggle, discovery, result. So what is the result? So if you think about, for instance, a testimonial, it's the perfect testimonial formula. Because what do we want to know from a great testimony? Who are you? What, what was your struggle? What was the problem you couldn't overcome? What did you discover? You discovered Dean Jackson's 90 minute book and what was the result? The result is it's completely changed my business and opened my eyes in ways I couldn't have imagined and I'm going to make a lot of money from it. So it's the exact thing. So, so my 60 second sales hook as a, you know, copywriter and marketing consultant Is, you know. Hi, I'm Kevin Rogers. For years I struggled as a dead broke standup comedian, traveling the country and getting nowhere until I discovered how a simple joke formula could be used as a powerful sales hook and began teaching marketers how to use it to increase their conversions and grow their business. Today, I'm one of the most in demand sales copywriters anywhere, and I have the privilege of working with some of the best known marketers in the industry. If you'd like to be discover this simple sales hook and use it in your business, simply enter your email below and, and I'll give you the report. I mean, it's, it's that simple. It's the same, right?

That's awesome. And it's so funny now that I know this, I've been kind of, you know, noticing it everywhere. I was thinking about airborne the other day. You know, the airborne, those little dissolvables that you dissolve in water. I remember, you know, before when that first came out, the story was, you know, airborne was, was created by a second grade school teacher who was tired of getting sick. You know, it's almost like this whole thing, it's like, you know, everybody knows kids are germ magnets. So that is like, it makes sense. And it's, it seems to be. Well, yeah, so that's how that, how that came about. But it seems like it's kind of that same formula.

Yeah, absolutely. And because it's, it's really all about the struggle, you know. You know, hi, I'm Blank, a former school teacher from Blank. Okay, great. Now we have this image of what a schoolteacher means to us. And the struggle was I was constantly ill because kids are constantly sick and spreading germs. And we all know that any parent or anybody who's been around kids knows that's true. And then, so what she discovered was there's a way, a certain blend of herbs, all natural stuff that you can use to boost your immune system. And the result is, I got sick a lot less. And if you'd like to have this same magic formula that I discovered, you know, go take it to the cash register right now.

Yeah, it makes sense, right?

Yeah.

So it's interesting when you see this all, but I, and I wonder how many people could, you know, have it that articulate and, you know, so, so many things. It's like one of these, it's like the, the yeast cell of all of your market. All of the marketing things that you're going to do are going to kind of, you know, expand and evolve from that. That's got to be. You got to have that core idea. If you can't articulate it in, in that kind of, with that kind of clarity, that's got to be the place to start. So often people, you know, because it's so simple, it's seeming, it's like it takes a lot. It takes more than 60 seconds to come up with your 60 second sales. So.

Right.

That's the, that's the thing is all the stuff and all the psychology and all the things that go into getting that 60 second articulation is really where the magic is. And that's what the 60 second sales hook is, is the process of going through that. That's right. Just how valuable that is. It kind of reminds me of. There was Guy, I don't know if you've ever heard of Clotaire Rapai. He's Guy. Eben turned me on to him. We, we found him on, on, on a PBS special that was called the Persuaders, which, if you can go to pbs, it was on their Frontline show. There's an awesome, yeah, there's an awesome show that they did called the Persuaders. And one of the guys in there was this Clotaire Rapai. And he was a guy who, you know, thinking about it now even his story is a 60 second sales book. He's a psychiatrist who is working with autistic kids. And in struggling to understand what they were saying, he discovered that they all actually speak, they communicate, you know, in a way. And because there are. They have these imprints of certain things. And so when he started looking at products, he started looking that every. Everything has this sort of one word, this code. And he wrote a book called the Culture Code, which was all about it. And so he does these market research things where he'll get people and he takes them through this process to really understand and he tries to discover and crack what the one, what the code is for any product. So for instance, he did work with General Motors, who I think it was General Motors, whoever did the Hummer. Right. What he discovered is what's the code for suv, right? Like he was just trying to. Even though verbally people say they want less expensive cars, they want better fuel economy, but yet the actions don't prove that out. People buy SUVs, right? And they're saying, well, I, you know, it's good if I go off road or whatever. And he's like, yes, but you live in Manhattan. Why, you know, why do you have this? And so he, what he really discovered is that the code for SUV is domination. And because they're up higher and they're. They're looking over everybody and this whole thing. So when they go with that code, they're able to encouraged General Motors to make the Hummer look as dominating as possible. They put the fin or the things on the side of the car that look like general stripes. These sold them, advised them to photograph it from below, only looking up at it and to make it look intimidating. Right. And that's really what drove that was. See that sense of intimidation. Another example, he used cheese. You say you have the code for cheese in America is that the cheese is dead. That's what we want. The cheese dead. And in Europe, of course, the cheese is alive. The cheese is alive and it breathes. And they don't dream of, you know, putting it in the refrigerator or, you know, they let it out so it can breathe.

They don't cover it.

But he said when you're really going with that thing, when he's working with crack, you know, the way that they do it now is that he had them shoot the commercials from the perspective of looking out from inside the refrigerator. People open up the refrigerator, the morgue, and you're, you know, they're looking out, and then it's got the zip lock, the zip resealable bag, the body bag.

You know, so dead.

And you put cheese in the refrigerator, so in the morgue. And so you're reinforcing this idea that the cheese is dead, it's safe. It's not, you know, not. It's fresh or whatever the, you know, whatever. So it's interesting that all the stuff that goes into creating those and just what you're kind of describing here is the. This process of once you know what your 60 second sales hook is, that's the yeast cell that everything else can grow from because you could use it on your. On your website, in your sales letters, on your videos and your offers.

That's it, right? And even face to face. I had a great comment on a blog post the other day. A guy said he was in the field salesperson. And he said, yeah, I got to use the hook today on Face to Face Scenario. And he adjusted his story a little to what he knew about the prospect. The guy he was standing there literally having a live dialogue with. And he said, it's, you know, the minute he shared his struggle, the guy's eyebrows raised like the golden arches, he said, and. And next thing you know, he's bringing out his prized macaw bird. To introduce him to his bird. You know, they were suddenly best friends. And yeah, you know, when you, when you. Here's the thing about the struggle is mo again, most people and marketers are so guarded and afraid to not be seen as an expert and a professional that they will not reveal their struggle and their heartache. But who would you think about the people you've trusted in your life? They're the people that you could relate to because they went through something similar to that that you've gone through or that you're going through now, and that's who you seek to counsel you. Like, if you're, if you're going through, if you're in a bad relationship, you're not going to go to your friend who's in a perfect relationship and want to hear what, how she does it. You're going to go to the person who either ended a bad relationship or overcame it and stuck it out or whatever and say, you know, what were the signs? What did you do? You know, you want an expert who's worn your shoes. And so when you're willing to share struggle, people are immediately their guard goes down and they're able to trust you and relate to you. That's the big thing. You know, we talked about email being intimate. The other thing that struck me recently is how intimate our relationship with our computer screens is. Like, isn't it strange when you're on a Skype call or something and somebody shares their screen or even if you're with them and they say, hey, come over and let me show you this YouTube video, and you sort of see their. And it's like, almost like looking into one of their junk tours. It's like this very intimate portrait of how. Yeah, right. And how they behave. And, and you're thinking, oh, weird. Like, I've never seen that icon. What does that thing do? Or, oh, yeah, they also use this or that, and that's how they prioritize that. That's strange. But you just think about. It's a very intimate relationship you have with your computer screen. So when you present yourself to somebody on, on the Internet, there's a good chance that that's the situation that they're in when they are meeting you. And it's as. It's almost like the beginning of a blind date where you just want to say the right things, ease tensions, drop guards, and reveal yourself in an engaging way. And that's. That's what it accomplishes.

Awesome. Well, Kevin, I could talk to you all day.

Fun stuff.

Way over our hour. It is all very exciting. You're absolutely right.

So I was hoping if I yak long enough, we'd get a two parter out of this.

That's so funny. So here's what I think we should, we should do. I, I think it'd be great for people to download your book. The website is 60secondsaleshook.com. That's 60 the numbers 60secondsaleshook.com and you know, egos and explains the whole process of the 60 second sales hook. So I think that's a good starting point. And then I love your podcast with John Carlton and what's the name of the podcast? I'm going to encourage people to check that out too.

Oh, thank you. Yeah, that's called Psych Insights for Modern Marketers. Psych Insights from Modern Marketers. And the website for it is PI the number 4nm.com. Because we didn't want anyone finding us and. Yeah. So Psych Insights. If you probably type in John Carlton into itunes or something, it'll, it'll come up for you.

Perfect. Well, Kevin, thank you so much. That's been exciting. I love this kind of conversation. So I hope that people will enjoy this. And I can't wait to hear leave us a comment and hear share your 60 second sales click. I'd love to hear that too.

Yes. Thanks for everything, all your guidance. Thank you.

There we go.