Everyday Meaning: An Addiction and Recovery Conversation with Ken Wells and Joe Polish

When does obsession and achievement for something in life become toxic, become negative, becomes not expanding but contracting?

Well, I think, Joe, to me it's when I'm not achieving, when I'm not successful. How do I make meaningfulness out of those common moments? If I don't know how to handle that part in my life, the average commonplace, I struck out this time, experiences of my life, then I really won't know how to be— show up and be fulfilled in achievement, I have to be willing to embrace what hurts. And who in the hell wants to do that?

How can you be a domino for someone else? The Joe Polish Show. Any problem in the world can be solved with the right genius network. There's this book called Dare to Be Average, and this is a beat-up version of this book. I mean, extraordinarily beat-up version of this book. Not by me, but by the author of the book, Mr. Ken Wells. And Ken is a friend. I met him in 2000. I became part of a high-profile group that had famous people, celebrities, professional athletes, clergy, politicians, people that many of the world would recognize and could not easily go to just meetings because They're very famous. And he was leading this group and he was amazing. And every year that I've known him, I am more and more admiring him because I meet a lot of successful, famous people that can get up and do great talks and they can write amazing books and all that. But who they are behind the stage and who they are off stage is often a different person than the person they write about. This guy is about as authentic and as real and as caring as empathetic and as helpful as a human being can be, while also admitting his challenges, his flaws, and where he's come from. And anything that he's learned has been forged through tremendous amount of work. And he has done— he has spent thousands of hours sitting with people in pain and helping them with that because he himself has done the work. His name is Ken Wells, and he's the guy that when the most successful people I know are struggling or needing help, I will refer to him. And when I also say— successful, I mean people that are super rich, super famous, you know, oftentimes the hardest ones to go ask for help. But he also will volunteer his time to go to prisons and talk with people that are sex offenders. I mean, he just cares about humanity and he's a wonderful human and he doesn't have a lot of time right now, but we're just going to do a short introduction. Some of you have met him before, but I want to bring up my friend Ken Wells. Thank you. Thank you, brother.

Hey, Joe, give you a hug.

Yeah. Thank you. So, there's so many things I can ask you. What I want to jump into is when does obsession and achievement for something in life, what I talked about yesterday, wanting, become toxic, become negative, becomes not expanding but contracting? Because there's a lot of people that their work and their occupation and their career has consumed every bit of their ability to find happiness and they're trying to externally find validation through outside success and work. What is that? What is the cause of it? And how does one even recognize it?

Well, I think, Joe, to me, it's when I'm not achieving, when I'm not successful, how do I make meaningfulness out of those common moments? So that's what I wrote about. It wasn't about being average. It's not about being half-assed or half-hearted. It's about the commonplace everyday experiences of our lives. How do I make meaningful sense out of that. So we are achievers. Are we only achievers? Life has a way of humbling us and reminding us that there's sometimes in aspects of our life we don't achieve. And what do you do with that? How do I make meaningfulness out of that? I know somebody talked about an umpire. I don't know if we have an umpire here. I thought about—

Brian Kurz, yeah.

Yeah, okay, Brian. I thought about, I'm a big baseball fan. And I thought about one of my favorite players was Mickey Mantle. And Mickey Mantle wrote and admitted, that he, in his career, had struck out 1,700 times and walked 1,800 times. And he said, you know, I get up about, if I'm healthy, I get up about 500 times a year. So he says that figures out to be about 7 years I never even touched the ball. I thought that's pretty interesting because evidently Mantle, as others, have learned how to make meaningfulness when I'm not successful. So I think if I don't know how to handle that part in my life, the average commonplace, I struck out this time, experiences of my life, then I really won't know how to show up and be fulfilled in the achievement. Because if I know how to handle the failure, then when I achieve, it's meaningful, but it's not who I am. It's just what I can do. See, it's a big difference. And it's easier said than done, because I wrestle with that every day of my life. That's not an easy thing to do. I can say it, I can write it, but boy, living it out, boy, that's very difficult. How do I make meaningfulness in those moments? That's where brilliance is in my mind. That's where brilliance, that's where God is, however you say it. Inside, I find meaningfulness by taking the everydayness of my life, looking at it, and letting it speak to me. And it's hard to do that. If you don't, you know, like, that means you have to slow and sit and think. But that's hard to do that if you don't like what you see inside. And so you have to go back and you have to figure out, I love what Joel says, you know, it's how you think. It's certainly how you think. And when my thinking has been contaminated by shit that's happened in my life, I gotta go unravel that shit so that I recognize I can put the awful feelings like shame on the behavior, not me as a person. And really deeply down deep believe that I am an unrepeatable miracle of the universe. That's a thought that becomes a living reality when we're able to sit even with the things that we don't like about ourselves. I can do that because I can take it away from who I am to what I've done. That's a big difference because when I can do that, then I can work with it. 'Cause what I can do is I can transform that shame about, oh, you're not this, you're not that. I can transfer that shame and behavior that proves that I'm not this and I create compassion first for me and then for the world around me. It's a nice thing. It's a hard thing. It's a lifelong pursuit.

Yeah, no, totally. In high school, I had a bumper sticker that said, "Reality sucks." And I used to think that reality sucks. And my reality from the way that I was experiencing life did suck. And so I was high all the time. I was constantly— I never felt okay in— because I was scared, I was nervous, I was anxiety-ridden. And when I got high with drugs, it made me feel better for a period of time. It made me social. It allowed me to crawl out of my shell. And I started to— I got to a point where it's like I would wake up to get high and I would, you know, get high to go to bed and I would do uppers in the morning, I would do downers in the evening, and I became a drug addict. And without going through the long story for timing, I ended up moving away, getting sober from drugs and alcohol, but I never dealt with the underlying issues that caused me to drink. So the real core addiction, which was sex addiction, which is an intimacy disorder, which is a connection disorder, which all addictions I view as, I ended up becoming a workaholic. Later, I started having financial success. I became a millionaire before the age of 30. And I would do these events that were really good events and they were really powerful and people would cry and they weren't even touchy-feely events. I mean, Jeff has been, you know, was doing a lot of that stuff. And I would finish these events and I would have this massive adrenaline rush coupled with massive anxiety. And then, I would oftentimes be in hotel rooms and I would call up and hire escorts and pay for sex and prostitutes. And I would feel like a worthless piece of shit human. And I did that for many years. And I would go periods of time without being able to— without doing it, but I was always white-knuckling. It was always this constant thing. And I was littered with shame and I was confused because I was doing the work even, meaning going to therapy, going to meetings. And I just oftentimes could not— I just couldn't keep it together. And I would have good relationships and period, then I'd have a breakup and I would be hit with incredible grief. I remember, you know, I went to a 30-day treatment facility and just did so much work and got out and like within 24 hours I'm acting out again. And I'm just thinking, this is hopeless. Like, how do you, how do you deal with it? But I just kept at it and I kept at it. But there was a deep shame. And so my question to you is, The reason I say that is because this is that which is most private that feels you're the only one in the world that has it. It's the most public. And, when I finally got to the point where I did enough work where I felt I can start talking about these things openly, there was this calling where I could say it. It's not like I wanted to say, "Hey, I slept with prostitutes. Hey, I've been a drug addict." None of these things evoke sort of like pride, you know, I'm like, you know, and I did have the junkie pride. There's that where you can brag about all your shenanigans and stuff, but I found that to be dangerously manipulative. There's, you know, there's a part where I start, where I started sharing it. So many people started to come up with me and saying, yeah, I'm going through that too. And now I'm in a position where it actually is helpful and it has gotten a lot of people to seek out treatment. But you've worked with a lot of sex addicts. You understand sex addiction. Yeah. I'd like you to explain what What is it? Because so many entrepreneurs use status, work, sex. These are behavior addictions that very hidden, hardly anyone talks about it or they talk about it in circles and it's a shame. So, what was I— if you could even— what is someone seeking when they're trying to get that feeling, that high? In the heroin world, chasing the dragon. What was I chasing? What was I looking for? What was it that could never be that hunger that I could never be satiated and I had to do these things that were, they temporarily, they were like a sugar high, but they left me depleted, hungover, filled with shame and regret and feeling like a complete loser and keep on doing it with not being able to stop. What the hell is that?

You ask a question and I have a limited time to, I can say.

Yes, I know. I'm trying to stuff a lot in here.

I'll just do what I can with that one. Well, for me, see, one thing, I love Joe for many reasons, but one, I mean, I work with lots of different folk, I'm talking now professionals, and we always talk about, you know, we need people who just have the guts and the courage to share what's inside about like sex addiction. And oh yeah, we do that, we do that. And the guys say, let's do that. Not a one of them have ever done that that I know about, but Joe does. He's got the courage, and I won't say courage, he's got the sense of awareness of who he is on the inside that he can tell you who he is on the outside. And it doesn't interrupt, nor does he at some level give a shit what you think about it. It's just that I found something in here that gives me peace and grounding. You know, and that's that we need more of this. I always respect Joe for that. My God. And certainly without me going to my world of recovery and sexual addiction for the last 30-plus years, it's true. So what is that that we need? We try to soothe. And it's, you know, none of us got through life or childhood unscathed. It doesn't mean everybody saw their parents get murdered, or thank God, or, you know, or sexually molested or whatever, as I was growing up and stuff. But we all have experiences that we didn't get needs, developmental needs met. And so I always liken it to this. I liken all, we can list a whole list of developmental needs that should have been met as a kid. And it's like a chunk of Joe Polish cheese, and the holes in there represent these needs that weren't met. And what we do to try to meet those needs is we try to reach outside ourselves with a cocktail of experiences to fill in what's inside missing. Outside, inside. It's an inside job. But the inside, I have to be willing to embrace what hurts. And who in the hell wants to do that? You want me to sign up for that? The sign up is like, I'm going to go back and deal with what's hurt so I can embrace what Joe suggests is how you think, 'cause that is dynamic. But if I think I'm a piece of crap, I better deal with feeling like a piece of crap so I can think differently. And that's what we learn to do. We work on that. And you know, it's not a magic bullet. It's like people wanna say, hey, can you fix me? Can you gimme something? You know, and then I start talking about, well, it's kind of like an old, a tooth that needs to be pulled. You know, if you pull the tooth now, it's gonna hurt like hell for a while. For a short time. But then if you get it pulled and you have to have it pulled, there's no other options. Maybe an implant later or what. But the truth is, is that if you don't, then it's going to hurt and it's going to grow into other infections. So who wants to sign up to have the wound scrubbed? We don't want to do that. But if I scrub the wound, lean into that, then I find myself and I find healing. And I've watched Joe Polish Polish for 20-plus years, see how he scrubbed the wound. And honestly, there times I've been with him, he didn't know if he'd ever get it scrubbed enough. He keeps scrubbing and scrubbing. And it's not like, you know, it's an adult thing, you know. It's not like, uh, do we say you have to grieve what happened? Yeah, but grieving, I mean, you know, it's, yeah, it's a life, it's an adult thing we do the rest of our lives. Does it mean we have to be overwhelmed by grief? Of course not. There are times we are. There are times we really are. There are people in this world right now who are overwhelmed with grief. It'd be ridiculous if they weren't. But hopefully the idea is not to be dominated by that grief the rest of your And I believe that healing and health brings us to that point that you've just described about yourself, Joe, and you're a living example of that. So thank you.

No, thank you. Yeah, and look, I feel with what I, along the way of all of this business and all of this marketing and all of this how-to and teaching and being in a voice for anything, When you can find the reduction of human suffering within yourself, you know, people will often give me a lot of wonderful compliments. I mean, I've done a lot of podcasts and interviews on addiction and they'll be like, you know, the great work that you're doing and it's so wonderful. And I'm like, look, I'm not some philanthropic angel here. I go, it's actually way harder to act out if you run an addiction recovery foundation, if you're doing this stuff, there's a real self-serving purpose with all of this. This shit keeps me in check and it's good. And like they say, 12 steps, if you don't, you can't keep it if you don't give it away sort of thing. I mean, there's a lot of truth to be said. If you want your life to get better, find, and you're hurting, go find someone else who's hurting and just be present with them. Just talk with them, show up. And that's some of the hardest things. I mean, I shared this at a previous meeting where the first time I walked into a Sex Addicts Anonymous meeting was in Mesa, which is probably about a, I don't know, maybe a popping on the freeway here, it'd probably take you 6 minutes to get there. And it was, they used to hold it. It's in a different location now, but outside this hospital building of the main, what is it, Desert Sam or whatever. And I walk in and I'm looking, you know, this, I had this address. It wasn't even on the internet. It was like this SAA brochure. And I walk into this, is this an address? And I walk in this medical building and it's a waiting room filled with people. It's like a medical clinic, but there's like different. And I said, there's two gals at the front. And I said, is there, you know, I whisper because there's a whole bunch of people in the waiting room. I'm like, is there an SAA meeting here? And she's like, um, what's SAA? And I'm like, uh, Sex Addicts Anonymous. And she says, is there a Sex Addicts meeting here? Like, everyone— and it goes, oh yeah, that's it. I'm like— and everyone's like looking at me, and I'm like, oh well, this is the initiation, I guess, for all this shit. That— welcome to the fucking club, right? And so that's what started it. But you know, I— there's, there's something I— after— I hated going to some of the meetings too. And I would often go to meetings and I'd leave and I would act out. I would literally drive to a massage parlor and I would freaking pay. It's the craziest shit. And I was like, what the fuck is wrong? You know, I mean, the conversations in my head, but I kept showing up. And there's one thing that I learned after a while, which is these are not attendance meetings, they're step meetings. So people that say 12 steps don't work, well, they went to meetings. It's like saying, you know, seminars don't work, gyms don't work. You would never go to a gym, not lift the weights or whatever, even though we're going to talk to John later and say that, you know, gyms don't work. Well, if you're sitting on the bench, they're not going to work. If you don't take the yoga class, it's not going to work. If you don't jump get on the exercise bike, you're not going to get— uh, so, you know, the work is actually doing the work. The work is not observing the work. The work is not watching other people. And I wasted so much of my time being an observer, not a participant, because the scrubbing the wound— yeah, sometimes you stare at that wound for years before you find— sometimes it gets worse, and it often does. And it is— so it's finding Having people that believe in you oftentimes more than you believe in yourself and being able to— and the support is out there. The help is out there. People don't realize how many hurting people would help them if you just help them. I mean, it's a big underlying message of what's in it for them is like I had to get to that poach. It's like find other people that are hurting and be with them. And I heard in one of the meetings, you're not here because of what you've done or where you've been. You're here for where you want to go. Joe Polish.

Yeah.

You know, so when I lived in that, like, I'm a screw-up, that's why I'm going to a meeting. Everyone's a screw-up. Every human being in here has regrets. You know, when people say no regrets, that's bullshit. There's a million things that you will regret in your life. How could you not? So when someone says I have no regrets, they're kind of lying to themselves. So the fact that, but doesn't mean, so my identity changed, you know, and see, 'cause my identity was that of I'm a loser, I'm a fuck-up. And what does a fuck-up do? What do they do? They keep fucking up. They don't get help. And so when I, you know, so I don't even take the label as alcoholic or addict. I like the labels. I like saying I am an addict because an addict is someone that just is doing something because they're in pain. Everyone's in pain. So, you know, it's how you interpret it. Sometimes it's semantics, but the bottom line is there's a lot of help. I would like everyone to read Ken's book. It's called—

Let me talk and see. This book's precious to me, this one copy only because You know how when you write a book and then they, it's not for resale, it's the one that the publisher sends back to you and says, "Hey, is this all right?" I said, "I wanna keep this one." And so I work out of it myself. And all the, you know, the frayed edges and the like, it just represents where I've been to hell and back so many times that I know where I've been. And so this book will always, even when it falls apart finally, I'll keep it because it represents my journey. Just the book itself, just the printing and that note where I've been and the other books, you know, they don't mean as much. So I carry this one with me wherever I go because it reminds me.

Yeah, well, and you used to be a minister.

Oh yeah, yeah, back in the day.

There's a big story with this guy. There's a long history. And I had Les Brown here, you know, a month and a half ago, whenever that was. And he has this line which they say in 12 steps often, and we've heard a lot, which is religion is for people that are afraid of going to hell. Spirituality is for people that have already been there. There.

Yeah.

And, you know, it's one of these things, whatever God means or doesn't mean, because I had a real issue with God. I mean, I spent, you know, many years of my childhood praying to a God I never felt, that I couldn't feel, that I couldn't understand. I was raised Catholic. I had a lot of bad stuff happen in church and everything surrounded, a lot of manipulation. And it was very confusing. And there's a lot of people that have built themselves up as very strong, powerful people. But deep inside, there's just a pain. There's a hurt that just never goes away. So they will, put that intensity into something, but they just, they don't feel the connection. So more than anything, when I say Genius Network is a connection network, this is only one piece. I mean, there's deep work that's never gonna be done right here. What I hope though is that we leave breadcrumbs and we leave people and we leave concepts and we leave ideas. And I will always do my best to bring individuals and dominoes that could be incredibly impactful to somebody. Everyone here has read a book or met someone that had had just such an impact that changed the trajectory of their lives once that awareness, once they knew. And I think Ken and what he's done, and see, Ken is the most non-egotistical person. He meets with people that are so beyond rich and famous, you have no idea. I mean, he doesn't care. He's not starstruck and they trust him. And the reason they do is because he's done the work and that's not what he's about. Just, you know, helping people connect with themselves. And is Michael Bernoff here by chance? He was here. He is. Okay. I know you got to run, but he wrote the book Average Sucks. You wrote a book called Dare to Be. At some point, my goal is to have both of you guys together. We're going to be like, okay, let's explain what average means here. But they're both great books and they completely have different meanings. So the point is, Ken writes the Genius Recovery blog. It is brilliant. I want help sharing his message. We're going to translate it in different languages and AI and all that. And because it's been a 501, we've not put like tremendous, you know, 'cause we're not selling anything. And it is so good. It is at a level of writing and insight that is better than almost anything that I've read. And I've spent half a million dollars on my own recovery. And so read the Genius Recovery Blog. And he writes it twice a week, not by AI, with his experience. And it's really amazing. And when people are like, you know, I'm struggling with workaholism or I'm a little obsessive, I tell them to read Ken's blog and people have like, wow, this is really good. Really profound. So I think you'll find it, and it's short. And if you take a few minutes a week reading this, I think it will have a very powerful impact. You don't need to buy anything. It's just right there and it's available. And, uh, you're going to hear more from Ken because we're going to be doing this for as long as we can to try to help as many people. And, uh, thank you. Don't miss another episode of the Joe Polish Show. Subscribe today at thejoe polishshow.com. If you'd like access to the show notes, to to take action on what was discussed, please visit thejoe polishshow.com/59.