Frank Ferrante About His Movie "May I Be Frank" - Bonus Episode - I Love Marketing With Joe Polish And Dean Jackson

Hello, this is Joe Polish, and this is going to be a more unique interview simply because I'm in Sedona right now at a place called Grace Grove, which is owned by a couple of friends of mine, gracegrove.com and I happened to meet a guy last night and watched a documentary, a movie that has been put together on him. It's called May I Be Frank, and his name is Frank Ferrante. Did I pronounce that right, Frank?

Yes, indeed.

All right, here we go. And so we're outside right now. There's a bunch of wind blowing, wind chimes in the background. You may hear dogs, people may interrupt us, but I figured I was really taken back by his movie and his documentary. And we have a lot in common, especially a past of lots of dysfunction.

A colorful past.

Exactly.

You know what I'll do for people that may have not seen the movie, which you're going to want to go watch after this again, it's called May I Be Frank? A film about sex, drugs and transformation. It's one of a bunch of awards and it's awesome. John Robbins, who wrote who's the author of the New Good Life and the Food Revolution, he says, who says you can't change your life for the better? Frank is a story of redemption. So on the back it says, Frank's transformation will inspire you. This film is a triumph where the hero defeats the villain within himself and gets the girl in the end. Ex addict Frank ferrante is a 54 year old overweight Sicilian American from Brooklyn with hepatitis C, some bad habits, and an unquenchable appetite for women. He also wants to fall in love one more time before he dies. May I Be Frank documents Frank's transformation as he stumbles into the aptly named Vegan Cafe gratitude, and over 42 days begins a life changing journ during which he is coached physically, emotionally and spiritually by 320 something staff members on the path to enlightenment. Challenged by years of addiction, fatigue and family dysfunction, Frank's quest for a healthier lifestyle is both tense and touching. Through Frank's metamorphosis, we witness the powerful effects of change upon one person's life and the potential we all have to find the most important love of all. Love of ourselves. So, you know, Frank, this movie was pretty awesome, really. You're quite a character. I mean, you've got a pretty large personality and at the same time in the movie you are very exposed and you show yourself in lots of different breakdowns and all kinds of stuff. So who is Frank now? Who's the guy I'm sitting across from.

You're looking at a work in progress. I think a lot of people look at movies and see an arc. They see a narrative. And I think it's a natural inclination for people to want to put life in a bento box. And it's not the case. First of all, I'm grateful to be alive, number one. And what I discovered is that till the day, till my last breath, there will be stuff, there will be things to uncover, discover and discard. Until my last breath. Sounds like a 12 step thing. It is, yeah. And so that certainly. That's in my past. The thing is that I'm not the same guy that was in the movie, fortunately, and the movie was filmed a number of years ago. Post production took three years. I find that, you know, I like myself a lot better. And coincidentally, I like everybody else a lot better. I'm a lot easier to be around. And I'm just. Day by day, I've become more comfortable in my own skin. I certainly don't practice any of the addictive behaviors that I did in the past. I mean, everybody still has a little something and nobody gets rid of everything. But I mean, as far as the stuff that was potentially lethal, the drugs, the booze, the way I ate and all that sort of thing, I like to think that, you know, that that's a part of my past and it remains a part of my past if I'm diligent about my present.

Well, you are a heroin addict. I mean, you. Do you. Do you find today that the addictions and all the stuff, Was it a gift to you or was it just a horrible part of your past? I mean, how do you view it?

You know, that's a great. That's a really. Honestly, that's a great question. Because sometimes when I think about certain things in my past, you know, I still have a degree of remorse about it. And people. It's like the parlance of the new age. Everything that happened is a blessing. You know, I think that would be a hard sell if you were a Polish Jew in 1939 in Warsaw.

Right?

That would be a hard sell. And to me, I just. There's some aspects, I think that will always cause an ache when they come through some of the things that. What I didn't do as well because I wasn't present for my kids on certain times and that sort of thing. But what I can do now is be the best dad I can be. Be the best, you know, best partner I can be. Be the best worker, you know, be of service and really engage in that with 100% my spirit.

Yeah. Last night when we were having dinner, you talked about, you know, you're out there sharing the movie, speaking and sharing experience, strength and hope. You know, even made that comment about.

Like 12 step groups.

You know, experience, strength and hope. So what is your goal and objective for if people watch this? What are you hearing that people are getting out of it? And what would you actually like people to get out of it?

What, what? My experience from touring with the film, and that sounds very elaborate, but just for the sake of your audience, that it's not. It's not red carpet action. Sometimes it's in little rooms in the back of health food stores and sometimes it's in theaters and everything else in between. What I notice is that it seems as though the entire incredible number of people in our country want to transform some aspect of their life and either don't have the language or don't feel like they have the permission. And what I've noticed that the film does, and certainly we didn't have this vision. I don't want to take credit. I really feel uncomfortable about that because we didn't know what we were doing when it happened. I really believe this was light driven. But what happens is that people see a guy that's not a silver spoon kid, regular blue collar son of immigrants, go through this transition and cynical, because I didn't believe any of this crap at all. I mean, you know, I looked at these people like they were crystal gazing spoon benders. You know, I got, you know, nice people better to hang out with than fascists, but still, I didn't take them fully seriously. But by engaging in this world of wellness, it softened me into the realization that I don't know everything. And so what I want, what happens with the film is that people get very inspired to do something about their lives, or at least they know that it's possible. And what I would like to do is to be an instrument of that. To be an instrument in people's lives to help them with their transformation and. Exactly. There are many ways to do that technologically and with media and also personally, again, you know, I'm still formulating ways to do that most effectively, but I do know that there is a desire out there for people to transform. And it seems as though my journey gives people permission to do that.

You know, that whole cliche we've heard a million times when the teachers, when the student's ready, the teacher appears. I think that Film and this message and just putting it together operates that way. I mean, as I was watching, really first off, I wouldn't even have suggested, totally off the cuff, that we sit and do an interview on this and just talk about it.

It's the best.

Yeah, yeah. I just wanted to share with people because when I watch it, I mean, you know, what I see is a guy who, like you said, very cynical, going in to do something for different reasons, what ended up coming out of it and going through the process uncovered all kinds of stuff that you never would have in a million years fathom what would come out of it. And like you had said, you even gave me the background of how the footage was done and it was sitting in a shoebox and how it was all pieced together. So this is still. Make it up and make it real, you know. So going through that, watching it though, it was, it was incredibly inspiring. It also shows that through a lot of pain and through a lot of trauma and through a lot of shit, there's, there's a lot of diamonds. If you, if you can, if you can get to them and seeing, you know, the compassion that could come out of it and you being incredibly open and vulnerable, I mean, you're letting them film you freaking naked on the toilet. I mean, it's some crazy stuff and having meltdowns and arguing, losing it. And I've always believed that, that saying that I've heard in 12 step groups, you're sick as your secrets. And I see a lot of things that are opened up out of that and by allowing people to witness that and observe that, I think it gives people for one, the permission that, oh, I can probably ask for help, I can probably do something with. And also, I'm not alone because I think there's a lot of people in tremendous pain of the past that are imprisoned by it, that suffer from it on a daily basis. And I think this film really opens a door and says, hey, maybe you can take a look at your own life. So me.

Well, if I may, in your observation, what you touched on was actually one of the things that I recognize in other people because of myself is the deep seated shame that people carry. And usually the intensity of the shame that they feel doesn't correspond with the incident. Most of the time. What people would tell you that they're ashamed if they reveal their deepest secret about what they're ashamed of would probably not even make you blink, really. But it becomes a festering wound and, and it's constricting and like, you Said it imprisons people. But the interesting thing about that, C.S. lewis said the gates of hell are locked from the inside.

Yeah.

And, you know, I grappled, you know. You know, I just. You know, I just didn't want to unlock that door because there was something terrifying about it. There was something familiar about my hell. You know, there was something familiar about it. That. And that's. I think most people do that, too. They opt to remain in familiar misery rather than to take the few moments of discomfort and enter into the light.

That's an interesting point. So people will stay in prison for many, many years versus just taking some. In some cases, maybe unknown or incredibly painful steps. But it's. It's right there.

Brief. You know, they're brief. It's. It's. It's a. It's something. They carry it much longer than the actual. The time of catharsis relative to the time that they're. You know, that's what suffered. That's what Buddha described as suffering. Right. It's like what. You know, rather than having the courage really, to step through that interval of discomfort, which is minuscule compared to the time my life, miniscule compared to the years that I carried resentments and rage and all those, you know, all those. And anger and all those feelings that kept me from walking in the sun.

Right, Right. Well, I want to mention this now because Morgan just sort of showed up midstream here, not knowing what we're doing out here. Sitting outside in front of the entrance.

Of Grace Grove, by the way, not looking particularly concerned about it either. Yes.

So, Morgan, we're doing an interview here just off the cuff with Frank. And of course, I met him last night because of you. We decided to get together and I talked about Grace Grove, and you just popped in. So what did this film mean to you? Because when people come to Grace Grove, you actually show it to a lot of people that come to this place. And this will be like product placement of the interview. So talk about what Grace Grove is. And you show this film here. Why? I want to see. Because you see a lot of people that have a lot of suffering, a lot of health problems, and they come in and they get better.

For this film, we've shown a lot of them. We've helped participate in creating a few of them. And of all the films that we have, this is the one where you kind of laugh, you can cry, you can enjoy this film. And when you go through, you come out the other side and you go, well, hell, if Frank could do it. Then I could do it.

Right.

You know, that's a great point.

It really is. That's a good point, because you really see someone who's kind of out of, like, not kind of like completely living an unmanageable life. Yeah.

You know, and we have so many clients that come here that they've lost hope, you know, and. And they don't know which way to turn. They've tried all different kinds of, you know, Western medicine, alternative medicines. Everything is. Just seems like it's, you know, it's. Nothing really works. And when they really understand that, all it's all about is empowering themselves and really getting down to that core and connecting to their spirit. That's what empowers them, you know, and that's what Frank shows. That's what he embodies. That's what this whole movie is all about, is that here's a guy that you never would figure would be on a spiritual path, and we realize we're all on a spiritual path. We're all just here to connect and to understand why we're on this planet and do the best we can.

Yeah.

Yeah.

And some folks, you know, I noticed, you know, some of the folks that. That. That come here or you know, what this was talking about, Grace Grove have their outside world really together.

Right.

All the stuff is taken care of. Right. You know, like, the bills are paid, the house is, you know, fine, and the job is great. And then there's, you know, when all of that's in place and you still feel like you want to blow your brains out, where do you go? You're like, you have to. You have to take that journey that Emerson talked about, the journey without distance, that 18 inches between your head, heart, and. And that's the one that people are reluctant to do. And people come here with the. With the, you know, the notion of getting their gallbladder and their liver cleansed and they're going to fertilize the land. And. And, you know, what happens is, you know, it's. As I said, you know, as I mentioned earlier, it's a gateway into a much deeper process. It's, you know, you come here and, you know, you decompress from your outside world and. And you start. And you start recognizing your humanity. And it's all under the guise of, like, you know, doing a liver cleanse. When I started my physical recovery, my intention was to look good naked. That's it. I had no intention of improving myself as a human being at all. And I had no idea of how much Real work there was to do, you know, the 120 pounds was nothing.

So you lost 120 pounds compared to.

The inner work, you know.

You know, and also, Frank, I think the interesting part of this last week that we were together was that we do so much damage to our liver, our gallbladder, you know, that these big filtering organs of our body, we don't realize what's even stuck in there. I mean, you've been doing, you know, in this process for many years.

Right, right.

But then when you really get rid of the junk that's clogging it up, you think better, your mind processes better, you have better flow and function of your.

Of your body. Right, right.

And. And that's what I was saying. That's the gateway.

Right.

Because you start feeling better, you start becoming conscious and awake. Because I believe that the reason we're all here, regardless of what anybody thinks, and if I may be so presumptuous, is to help each other awaken, to ascend from, you know, the whole alchemy thing. Alchemy, the notion, the idea of turning lead to gold, that's, you know, it's a really a metaph. The metaphysical reality of that is to ascend from the depths of darkness and into the light. That's what alchemy is. And it's practiced here every day. And it's such a redeeming work, especially for people that had, like myself or other people in the circle here who I won't mention that have, you know, that have a past that was really very. Just, like, rooted in the darkness. And my road to redemption is to bring light to the darkness. Never in a million years that I think I'd be saying that to you with a straight face or to anybody with a straight face. But that's the job of a spiritual warrior or an elder or however you want to categorize the position. But that's where we are. Us that survived the 60s and the 80s, we're here. And if we survive, it's really my job is to help you awaken and for you to help me awaken.

And the miracle of life is that no matter how much damage you've done, when you see Frank and you see what he's done and Joe, you. You know, we've talked about this.

Oh, yeah, I'm happy to. Talking about my.

No. But how much we've damaged our bodies, and it's still the innate wisdom of the body to heal itself.

Yeah.

It's amazing how resilient the.

It's incredible.

Yeah.

And it doesn't take. It doesn't take, you know, outside forces. That's what we all. That's what we're. You know, we think it takes a drug, we think it takes a pill. We think it takes something else besides the real true power that's inside of ourselves.

That's.

That's what we're all trying to get at, is that we don't need everything outside of us. We just have to take care of what's already happening inside of us now.

And in doing that, we achieve what we're basic. What our basic hard wiring tells us to do, which is connect. We're here to connect. We're here to connect with each other, and we're here to connect with the divine. And I know that there are people that are uncomfortable with that. That has nothing to do with religion.

Certainly.

I was a Catholic, which is a. Which is actually, you know, Catholicism is a training ground for atheists, you know.

So that is true. You know.

Yeah. I mean, so it's. I lost my train of thought, and I hate to do that. On the air.

You were talking about the divine. You were right.

You know, so all this stuff, you know, that we do that to feel better and to cleanse and all this stuff essentially is to connect, to be. To be vulnerable, to be authentic, which is really challenging for people. If you're ashamed, if you're ashamed, how could you possibly be authentic? Because the very. By definition, shame means that there's something about me that makes me unlovable.

Right?

Well, I'm unlovable. And I mean, you think about the prison system, the ultimate punishment is solitary confinement.

Right?

And that tells you something. And so all these. All these processes like that, these well thought out that Morgan has here with Grace Grove, this well thought out process to bring people to health is to me is a gateway into the light, into their light, into their spirit, if they choose to do so.

The whole thing on connect. Okay, so a couple things. If they choose to do so, with connection, is it first connecting with yourself and then with others, vice versa? I mean, how does one get there?

I appreciate that question. And you know, like, again, like in the current parlance of the new age, you can't love anybody until you love yourself. Personally, I think that's a load of crap.

Yeah.

And the reason I think that is that when I was in the dark life, I still loved my children. I wasn't the best father. I'm not in any way diminishing the impact that I had negatively on that. At the same time, I loved my children. I did everything I could to support them. And. And I wasn't as present as I would have liked to have been. And I do still carry a degree of remorse about that. Nevertheless, I love them. And I think that sometimes that's how it works. You recognize how loving somebody else is, and then it comes back. I don't think that there's any cut and dry thing. I also. Forgiveness. I think that in my experience, I couldn't forgive myself until I forgave you first. That was my experience. And so the path is different for different people, you know, But I do believe that that whole notion that I can't love anybody until, if I did that, I, you know, I wouldn't. Like, I have a wonderful relationship now. I wouldn't have this relationship maybe until I'm 89, like. Because until I love myself, I can't love anybody. So I'm cutting myself off. That's absurd, right?

Yeah.

When you're, I mean, when you come in and you're Inception, that's despair. Telling someone to love themselves is like telling someone, don't chase a deer, just say no. And so you find something that they can really anchor to. And most oftentimes it's children or it's a loved one or it's a parent someone. And from that place, when they can really feel that love, then it opens up. And if we are all one, if that is the truth, which I believe it is, that once you have that experience of love, it all unfolds.

Yeah. And that's what. And you got to start somewhere. And I think Grace Grove's a great place to start.

Well, there's many different paths to get somewhere. And you said that the path is different for everyone. And in the movie you talk about. Well, it basically documents 42 days of you first starting with consuming healthy food. You know what your three coaches, these really young guys, were recommending raw food.

Yeah.

And you. What happened in 42 days? Just for people that haven't seen the movie yet, What, what, what takes place?

Well, first of all. Yeah, first of all, 42 days is during the time it felt like a very long time. But it's, it's, you know, it's. It's a. It's a. It's a snapshot. Because what it was for me during those 42 days was an exposure to a different way of being. You know, like, like, like the title of my upcoming book, this January 13th. I thought vegan was a planet. You know, when, when I, you know, when I walked into a raw food, vegan restaurant and met, you know, the owner. It was like Tony Soprano meeting Deepak Chopra.

Right.

You know, I mean, I, I, I had, I really was not a part of that world. So it was a brief exposure into another way of being.

You thought it was a 12 step coffee shop?

Yeah, I thought because it said Cafe Gratitude. That's right. When I saw the sign, I thought it was Cafe Gratitude because gratitude is a central virtue in aa. And I thought somebody was being clever and opened up a coffee shop. I walked in there expecting to find dope fiends and alcoholics drinking coffee and talking crap. You know, that's what I, instead I found, you know, these very shiny, well lit plates, you know, with very enthusiastic millennials.

Well, how, how many times did you have to go back before rapport was built with these guys? And this ended up being.

Oh, I had rapport right away.

Well, you're, you're really good.

I had rapport right away. Right away. You know, right away we had rapport. And, and it wasn't too long after that that Ryland Engelhardt, this the son of the owner of the restaurant, came to my table and said, hey, Frankie, you know that movie Super Size Me? You know, with a healthy guy, you know, young, healthy guy, eats fat food for a month and gets real sick. I said, yeah, well. He said, well, we have an idea. You know, we want to take a guy who's not well, which was a generous condition description for my condition at the time. And they said, want to feed him raw food for X amount of days and go take them to holistic health practitioners and do colonics. And we want to film it. We want you to be the guy. And I thought, sure, why not? Whatever. And I thought they were just kids, they didn't have a camera. I had the most film experience because I had been to the movies the most, you know, I'd seen the most movies, so I had the most film experience. These guys, we didn't know anything. And somehow all these, all these components that were necessary to start a film started coming into place. I mean, we had, you know, the boom mic was, we went to Home Depot and got PVC pipe, you know, for the booms, for the mic. So people often ask me, how did you have the courage to do this in front of these people? Well, the camera, you know, lost. It's a small camera. It didn't have the gravitas of a Spielberg set.

It didn't, it wasn't intimidating.

No, no. And after a while, you know, it just blended in. You just, you know, you just did this thing.

And.

And also, I never really thought it would be a movie. I had no idea. We didn't have a narrative. We didn't have an idea. It was basically going to be a sort of a cheesy infomercial for the restaurant. You know, we had no idea it was going to be on the level that it's been. It's going to take on this, like, this place of, like, being in the forefront of wellness and the new age world. I thought, wow, like, it just blew my mind.

Are you completely surprised now that it's done this?

Or.

I mean, do you actually see that? Wow, maybe this was something that I just wasn't able to see where it could go at the time.

I was surprised for the, you know, for a while, but really, actually very recently and actually since coming here, I'm not surprised anymore. Now I'm. I have a conviction of what I'm supposed to do rather than, oh, wow, look at that. Isn't that amazing? Look at these people on Facebook and, you know, all that stuff that happens with your ego, like, it's very, very gratifying for a little, but it's not satisfying. You know, it's like a real. It's like a short hit, you know, it doesn't, you know, it doesn't really do it. And so now I have a deeper conviction about what I'm supposed to do rather than how I'm not sure, but what I know. And so I'm not really surprised anymore now I've integrated it into who I am.

For the listeners, could you describe a period of time, be it a day, be it an event of some of the worst moments of your life where it got just the darkest?

Well, let me see. I have a few of those on.

The Rolodex, and you actually talk about a few on the film there.

You know, there was one moment I was in rehab. I had relapsed after 17 years on prescription drugs. And after nearly fatal overdose, I wound up in rehab. And I had a vision. I was sitting, getting ready for a group, and I had this. I was so sick. I was taking enough narcotics to knock out of town, and I was under such painful withdrawal, I had to go into a medical detox because I would have died anyway. I'm in this group and they're waiting for the counselor to come in. And all of a sudden I had this daydream because I was not sleeping. And I would sometimes go into these dream states because of lack of sleep. And I had a vision of my son and daughter walking down the street and somebody coming up to my kid, my daughter and saying, hi, how you doing? How's your dad? And her saying, well, you know, my dad's dead and how did he die? Kid says, how did he die? And my daughter says, we don't know if he died of a suicide or accidental overdose. And at that moment in that, sitting in that chair, I almost collapsed. I started. I had, I saw how my behavior and my addiction was so selfish and so destructive to people around me. And I was reduced to nothing. I melted to like ectoplasm. I was just like ectoplasm on the floor. I had no ego, I had no self. I had nothing. I was reduced to absolutely nothing. When I recognized how my behavior was affecting other people, particularly the people I love the most. And I recognize also, piece by piece, I came back from that and I realized that the most important thing I can do for anybody is to take care of myself. I think that self care is the new patriotism. It's not waving a flag, picking up an AK47 or whatever, MEM16, but new patriotism is the new citizenship, is taking care of yourself. And I recognize that through that collapse, that emotional collapse that I had, that that was how I was going to leave my kids. If somebody hadn't found me in that hotel room before going to rehab, if somebody hadn't found me, I would have died. And that's the legacy I would have left my children. And that was really powerful to me. That was really powerful to me.

Do you believe that? You know, I have a soft spot for addicts, me being one.

That's how you start. That's how compassion starts. Yeah, exactly.

And I also, you know, the whole thing of addiction being a choice, which I don't believe it is, I believe there's a lot we can make decisions and do to preempt it. Once you're in the, in the storm, in the black hole hole, it's almost impossible in some cases to get out. Do you believe that you were just this person who was an asshole, become an asshole? Ego driven. Do you believe it was this out of control choice that you were just being completely self destructive and you just had no ability to get out of it?

What I told my son when he was at that age, when he needed to have what we needed to have that conversation, right? Pre high school, middle school, what I told my son is, Nikki, it started out as a party, you know, and I, you know, like I had A feeling he was experimenting. I said it started out as a party. I had no intention of my life taking this direction. It started out as a party. And the reason it started out as a party is when I got. When I got loaded, the first time I got loaded, I felt that this was the way I was supposed to feel all the time. You know, all my anxiety went away, my fear went away, and whatever the wounds were that were inflicted, whatever traumatic experiences that I had were mitigated. And the problem with drugs, I think, more than anything is that they can't target the trauma. I couldn't take. I couldn't take a drug that would target and mitigate that trauma or that, you know, whatever. Whatever that. That reason, mostly the trauma, what happens is it's global. So not only does it nullify that, it does not nullify whatever. Whatever response I have to that react to the trauma, but it also. It also mitigates joy. You know, it stops joy. It stops intimacy. I can't do any of that because I'm loaded. You know, I'm not feeling the pain of that trauma, but I'm not alive either. But that wasn't my intention. My intention was just to have a good time. And I didn't see, you know, And I think even if I would have had the foresight, the relief was so powerful, the sense of relief was so wonderful that, you know, that I think that if somebody would have said, you know, this is what's going to happen to you in 15 years, I wouldn't have heard it.

Yeah, yeah.

I'm different. I'm a special case.

Right, Right.

Well, I don't know if you remember the rock band from the. Probably the 80s, the cult, they had this one song called Love Removal Machine. And I really think that is a great describer of addiction, of addictive behaviors. I mean, it really gives the feeling of relief to different people, you know.

I mean, I want to be sedated. Yeah. The remotes.

Love the remot. You know, it's amazing because, you know, the drugs, the behaviors, you know, a lot of it at the time feels incredibly good. The problem is there's these really bad consequences. It really destroys your life, and it really destroys the people's experience around you.

It destroys all your good intentions. It destroys them. It destroys all your good intentions.

Well, honestly, the difference between the three of us sitting here and anybody who goes to Ana is that we admit I'm an addict. You know, I am an addict. And those who don't just don't know it yet or Just haven't faced up to it because everybody's addicted to something. Everyone who comes here has got some kind of addiction. Whether it's physical, eating, emotional, a drug, or whatever it is. We're all addicted to something. And, you know, is that our life purpose, to get over addictions? No, it's about connecting so that we don't all. We want that drug. I remember the first time I had alcohol is that it knocked away, like you said, all the negatives, the fear, the grief, the anger, the frustration, so that I could feel. So I could feel what it felt like to feel. Okay.

Esperitus.

Yeah.

I tell you, I would have a few drinks. I got taller, I got smarter. I got more articulate. I got, you know, I was a better dancer. I was. I was a indescribably special, spectacular lover, you know, all that stuff. And all it took was a few shots. You know, I mean, this is what. This was my dream. This is all I wanted. I wasn't afraid to ask people out. I wasn't afraid. You know, rejection didn't bother me.

I didn't.

I didn't care, you know, it didn't. I was able to navigate through life. And the other. The other thing about that is when you start doing that, you emotionally. You're emotionally erected. Rest, you mostly stop growing. So, you know, fortunately, it doesn't mean that, say, you know, if you drink for 20 years, it's going to take you 20 years to arrive at the place emotionally, you know, to arrive at the emotional maturity and intelligence that it would have taken for that long. Fortunately, it doesn't take that long. But that's what it means. It means that there's arrested development. Yeah.

And the thing with addiction. I just recently did one of my genius network meetings, and I had one of those vulnerable moments where I actually started talking about, you know, my drug addiction, which I've done for years, but I've not talked much about behavioral addictions, work addiction, sex addiction. You know, just things that, you know, really were mechanisms to try to scratch an itch that never went away. In wanting the itch to go away, but picking a method of coping that only made it worse temporarily. It made it feel a lot better. But the long run in. And I mentioned this last night, one of my favorite lines from Bill W. One of the founders of AA with Dr. Bob, he said, you know, as alcoholics, we're trying to drink God out of a bottle. And I always think of, even if someone's an atheist, going back to what you said about Connection, it's just someone trying to connect. A gambling addict wants to connect through the adrenaline rush, whatever is happening. Because I also believe that what happens with addiction is it's biochemical. It is. And all, all consuming substances, alcohol behaviors, from food to gambling to sex to drugs to Internet to work to exercise. I mean it's doing something because the chemistry got really messed up. And that happens in lots of ways. It happens from nutrition. You use food as a mechanism to kind of open up this door. But it was taking that step that led to different things. And so people are just really trying to connect. I think addicts are some of the most spiritually set up individuals. It's just they haven't found that connection. So the connection that they're attempting to find, they're finding a very self destructive ways. Like Mihaly Csikszentmihalyi, who wrote the book Flow, he said the addict uses the same neural pathways that a top athlete, entertainer, person in Flow uses for achievement. Uses the same neural pathways for self destruction. So it's the same mechanism. It's just where it's leaning to someplace good or bad.

One of the, you know, one of the things people say is, we say in the program is that if we use 10% of the energy that we use to get drugs and alcohol, we'd all be Fortune 500 CEOs. Absolutely, you know, without a doubt. You know, and it's unfortunate that, you know, but you're right, I do believe that, I do agree with you that, that it's what the addiction does and the craving does is indicate, it's an indicator. And unfortunately what happens is that we take the path of least resist. Addicts take the path of least resistance rather than sit with that discomfort which feels like you're going to die, you know, just, you know, for people that are not addicts, they just, you know, it's not, they just don't understand what it's like. They look at a guy who's drinking himself to death and they say, why doesn't he's, you know, you know, he's got such a nice wife, he's got such a nice job, you know, his family loves him. Why doesn't he just stop drinking? He can't.

Yes, exactly right.

He can't. And you can't make them either.

Well, and I think another piece of that too is that it seems that those individuals that are, you know, in this physical form right now that are the most sensitive, I mean, they're sensitive to other people's feelings. They're sensitive to what other people are thinking and saying. Those are the ones that are most susceptible to the drugs and the alcohol because they have to shut those voices off. And that sensitivity is really an amazing skill set if you can catch it at an earlier stage before you get into the addictive behavior.

Just so your audience doesn't think that we're glorifying addicts, I'll be the first to tell you that alcoholics and addicts are a major pain in the ass. Especially if they're in it. They're a pain in the ass. I mean, I mean I have to work with them and sometimes I just like I'm ready to pull my hair out. It's like I can't stand it. I have to make sure that I give myself intervals of breathing time because it's just, they're wounded. They're just deeply wounded. And I was deeply wounded. And also part of the difficulty is in recognizing, oh my God, I must have been that I must have been that much of a pain in the ass.

Well, I remember at Arianna Huffington's house, I was having dinner in 2012 and one of the guys that was at this dinner, it was for a gathering of people for a childhood obesity X prize that Peter Diamandis put together. And Ariana had spoken at my event earlier that day. And one of the guys that was at this dinner was from hbo. And he's the one that put together that really great documentary called Addiction that HBO did. And I asked him out of all of the different ones that he had done, which had been the most difficult because he had done so. He's done some of the top HBO documentaries and stories that would be multi hour. And he said the addiction one was so complex. He's like, it's such a complex condition. It's so difficult to try to understand. And it is because there's addicts that do very bad things, but if they think they're bad, they're fundamentally bad. It's very hard for them to ever get out of it because the self worth is non existent. Everyone around them thinks they're an asshole. They're getting moral diagnosis from society. And I always go back to, you know, the moral diagnosis, which is very complex. I mean, back in the 50s, they were getting rats addicted to cocaine. And the rats would choose cocaine until their hearts exploded over sleep, over sex, over food. And a rat can't make a moral judgment. You know, rats aren't sitting, going right or wrong, human beings can't. So a lot of people are like, Going, well, if you can get a rat that doesn't have the ability to make moral judgment and someone can say, oh, oh, that person's just choosing to screw up their life and everyone around them, it just doesn't make any sense to me. It doesn't excuse the behavior, doesn't mean.

It'S just okay to.

It allows you to at least understand and have some compassion. Because if you don't have some compassion, if it doesn't break open a little for yourself or for people that you may know that are addicts, family members, and everyone listening probably knows someone or has someone or is someone, if you can at least get to that place, then the chances of you getting better are almost non existent. So it needs that sort of breaking point so that going back to the film, I believe this film, if you watch it intentionally, like if you take any condition you may have, you know, you're just not feeling really well and you want to feel a little bit better and you want to watch this film and say, oh, I could use it for that, or you feel completely hopeless and you actually want to watch this story about this guy. I think this film can be a very important turning point, an important catalyst if someone watches it intentionally. My take is I think someone should just watch it just to watch a film like you're just going to watch any other movie. And then I think they should go back and say, I'm going to watch this and I'm going to learn how to use this as a catalyst. Because although it's only about 90 minutes of their life that they're going to have to devote to this, this was a shitload of time and a lot of crazy stuff. And I think, what about 160 hours or something that you had filmed in order to get it down to these core less. And I think that when someone knows the background, there's a lot of juice that can be squeezed out of this film and a lot that can come from it.

Well, thank you very much, that's very kind.

So what would you say to someone listening that is in a hopeless state? I mean, they really, they happen to stumble across listening to this on my podcast, wherever they happen to hear this, and they just feel really, just screwed. They just.

Well, first of all, I, first of all, I think it's fair to say that, that I'm not alone here in saying that we've all had that moment. Yeah, you know, totally. And I, you know that moment where, you know that and I had to be willing, I had to be willing to to do something about it. But, you know, that interval between taking the gun away from your temple and putting it back on the nightstand. Right. Like, I talk to people in that place sometimes, and I think it's like you have to believe that there's another way. You know, the only reason I changed wasn't because I, you know, I didn't walk into recovery because, you know, like, it was, you know, like on a whim. I wasn't on a roll. And I had to be willing and I had to be willing. And. And so what I would say to somebody who feels hopeless is that you're not alone and that there's another way where there's life, there's hope, and then the next step is to be willing to ask for the help, whatever that situation is. If it's drugs, if it's alcohol, most people know now that there's a place to go for those sorts of things. But there are other things. There are emotions. People that just broke up with somebody that feel hopeless and feel like they want to just take themselves off the count, you know, just. Just give time, time and, and pick up the hundred thousand pound phone, telephone and call somebody, you know, call somebody and, and, you know, and reach out, you know, because a broken mind cannot fix itself, you know. True. You know what Einstein's saying, You know, the mind that created the problem is not going to come up with a solution, you know, so. Or something to that effect. So tell them to call me, call me. You got to make a phone call. It's like. And then the other thing is, on an aside, there was a time in my life where I stayed hopeless a lot longer than I needed to because I didn't want to do anything about it, you know, I was like, somehow comfortable in my misery. I didn't want to take that step because I didn't want to go through any discomfort. So I stood in the pain of what was familiar rather than take a deep breath and put my foot in the water.

Right. Well, I've had plenty of cases where I would just call it when I didn't come up with this. I've heard many people say this is. Call it the fuck it's. You just don't give a shit, you know, I don't give a.

Those two words precede either a catastrophe or a breakthrough. It's interesting those two words, you know, stand on the precipice of a breakthrough or a catastrophe. It's your choice, you know, but at that moment, is it, you know, at that moment when I was at that moment, that fuck it moment, it was the one. It was that glimmer that just that little hair line opening of a possibility that I didn't know everything, that I did not have all the answers. And at that point, you know, because. Because really what the 12 steps are, are designed to get you into a state of humility. You know, there's a lot of ancillary stuff that, you know, you connect with people, you get community and all that, but essentially they're designed to get you right sized. And that doesn't mean to cut you down. It means to get you into a place where you see yourself for who you really are, you know, not grandiose, you know, because. Because when I was drinking and using, I was either on my way to my coronation or on my way to my execution. I was never on my way to work, never on my way to buy a newspaper or a pack of cigarettes. I was either on my way to my coronation or on my way to a firing squad. You know, and Buddha talks about the middle ground. Chop wood, carry water. You know, it's not that complicated. That's the other thing about this is that, is that it's like not smoking. It's very simple, but it's difficult. So Buddha talks about the middle ground, which often is what appears to be boring, but it's not. It's the silence. It's exercising that silence.

One of the terms that I heard from a guy named Kevin McCully is pleasure deaf is when you become an addict, when the ego takes over, you can become pleasure deaf. So things that are normal, like taking a walk, maybe going to a movie, would be really enjoyable. For a mind that's not entrapped with the need of stimulation is really fun. But to an addict, it's like, man, everything is in excess. Nothing feels good. And you forget how to just feel pleasure. You forget how to have fun. So you need these insane, crazy ass experiences.

That's the neurochemistry thing you were talking about. But there was a great book that came out in the 70s. I don't know, it's probably out of print, but I'm sure you can find it now that we have intergalactic communicating devices that can focus in on anything. But the New York Times put out a book called A thousand highs or 1001 highs without drugs. And what it did was each page was a couple of paragraphs on some kind of activity ranging from skydiving to handball. I mean, really. Or gardening. I mean, but a thousand things that bring you a sense of gratification and excitement or pleasure or all of the above. And one of those, or all of the above without the use of any outside stimulant. And part of that is part of the recovery is rebalancing the neurochemistry, which really takes time and definitely intention. With nutrition and the 12 step world, the literature doesn't really cover that. That's something, you know, they refer to it as an outside issue. But I think it's a really crucial issue. I think it's like really the, you know what the next phase of recovery, you know, it's really something that should be introduced into, I believe should be introduced to recovery. Because people, you know, people in AA are definitely, when they go to an AA party or you're supposed to say 12 step, 12 step party, you know, it's a carbon sugar fest. If, you know, if it's a potluck and there's 20 people, 19 cakes. Yes. You know, and potato salad. And to rebalance that neurochemistry so we can experience the pleasures that are abundant in life, you know, requires an intention to do that.

You know, I'm going to touch on a couple things too, just because we've spoken a lot about, about 12 steps. And I agree with you, there's a lot of things like exercise can replace in some cases a therapist. For some people, it'll do more for them if they. Now I'm not suggesting any, you know, any right or wrong way to do this. Just my experience, you know, eating shitty food and going to a 12 step group, not sleeping enough and going to a 12 step group is not going to enhance your recovery than looking at all kinds of different ways. But you got to start somewhere. And what I do like about 12 steps and there's a lot of people that will talk shit about 12 steps. Now here I am as a guy who has made his living in the promotions business, being marketing. Advertising. And 12 steps never grew through promotion. It grew through attraction. Although the Saturday Evening Post and early on there were some things that happened publicity wise that were instrumental in people finding out about it. So it's sort of a catch 22. On one level it needs to get shared, but on the other level it's never been about promotion. It's about a system that has worked for millions and millions of people. Now the people that I hear constantly say, well, 12 steps don't work or I don't like 12 steps or it's archaic or whatever. Well, first off, it's not an attendance program, it's a Step program. And the people that I know that have actually gotten better have done steps. They get sponsors, they take it seriously. And anyone that's gotten better in any area, take steps. When you watch your movie, you're seeing a series of steps. You're seeing things that you're actually doing. They're allowing you to get there. And you're seeing a lot of the pain and a lot of the challenges and a lot of the having to give up stuff, especially the ego that's coming through. What 12 steps do help people do is it helps people bond. It helps them to bond, and it helps them to get out of the muck through that. Certainly there's a lot of other things that added into recovery are going to give you the greatest chance of recovery. And so I've always loved the line, take what you like and leave the rest. I think that should apply to everything.

And, you know, in some cases, the 12 steps won't work. I mean. I mean. I mean, although I'm a complete advocate for it, but, you know, there are people with that don't respond to that modality. And so it doesn't, you know, there's no right or wrong. And so fortunately, in the past 70 years, there's been an enormous amount of research in addiction into addiction, and there's an enormous amount of science about it. And so hopefully there'll be an expansion of modalities that cover more people and individuals that don't respond to that particular way of being. You know, it worked for me. That's all I know. And so I'm grateful for that. It obviously worked for you, and that's, you know, that's. You know, that's cool. But there's people that, you know, it doesn't work for, and hopefully something will come up that does. But in the meantime, that's what we got, Right?

Right. And like. Like all of us, I am on that path, and I will be on this path. Hopefully, I will step off of it. Every once in a while. I will get off track, and I do my best to just.

That's when you pick up the phone, homeboy.

Yeah, pick up the phone, homeboy. So what I'd like to do at this point is talk about transformation. Okay. The subtitle of your film, may I be frank, is a film about sex, drugs and transformation. What the hell does that mean?

Well, I think the Sex, Drugs and transformation was. I think initially the idea of it was how do we project transformation without sounding like we're pontificating or we just didn't want to be dull.

Yeah. You want to be cool. Just a little bit of marketing there. I kind of get that.

Just a little cute and sex, drugs and rock and roll thing. So that's all that was about. But transformation is a very personal and subjective experience. And again, it's. And it has to do with really like Columbus, you know, he didn't find anything new. It's really coming back home, coming back to who you are.

It's rediscovering, like you said, you know, rediscovering something that's already there.

Yeah, it's just. And all. And most of my life, what I have done was reach for the external, for something that needed to be internal. So I would reach for these other things all the time outside of myself, whether it was drugs or sex or whatever money, whatever it was. And of course, it was never enough. And it's never enough because it's not the. It's not the solution. That's why never enough is never enough. It's never enough women, never enough sex, never enough money, never enough, whatever it is, because it's not addressing the genuine causes, the root causes and conditions of why you feel the way you do in the first place. So to get to the root of the causes and conditions is what invites a transformation. And a transformation is, you know, really, I guess the most fundamental definition of a transformation is a shift in perception. And through that shift in perception, I also shift the way my way of being. And when I shift my way of being, I change everything about my life.

I want to add to that too, because you said it was subjective, but I think it also has to be objective. I think we're really talking about changing form here. So we have to have things, and Dan Sullivan talks about this in coach all the time, is that you have to see physical transformation taking place. You have to have an objective look in the mirror that you're looking better, that you get on the scale as some measurement outside of yourself that's saying, I've lost weight or I've now not drank. And so there are objective measurements that go into this transformation process too. It isn't just your, you know, you're saying, oh, boy, I just feel a lot better.

No, no, absolutely. There are metrics. I mean, there's no question about it in the process. All I'm saying is that is that once you shift the perception, you know, it's not just that you. I hear what you're saying, but a shift in perception really is the key. I mean, when I really. When I shifted and I. And when I shifted, my belief that I could actually do this was actually, I had to be. I had a moderate idea that something could be done maybe, but when I saw that weight on that scale move 10 pounds, that was like porno to a 12 year old. I was in, you know, I, this is like I found a new genre, you know, this I was in. And to corroborate what you're saying, you're right. And most people, when they see that they can actually do it, it's really, it's, it's, it's, you know, it's. It's like a moment of internal harmony.

Yeah.

You know, it's a joyful moment and you want more of that, you know, when you start seeing that. So. Yeah, definitely. But the perception, I believe, has to be the willingness and then the shift of perception and then all that stuff starts to happen.

Well, there's a famous philosopher, I cannot remember his name, that said the last thing that a human being ever gives up is their suffering. And Dan Sullivan would talk about how there's two types of suffering, there's short term and long term. You just need to decide which kind you want. And what did you have to give up, really? What did you have to give up in order to make your transformation?

When people ask me, how did you lose the weight? My response is, I didn't lose the weight. I let go of what didn't belong to me. I don't feel like I had to give up anything. What I felt was that biblical thing, you know, when I became a man, I put away childish things. And the way I interpret that saying, the way I interpret that is that there was a mechanism that I used that was in survival mode. And it was a mechanism that I used. And when I realized that that was not only no longer serving me, but actually hurting other people. And I had that shift in perception. I put away childish things and I became a man I didn't like. It's more like I got rid of stuff than I. That I lost things and people.

I think that's the cleansing part of it too. You know, we were. Last night I got so. I got pretty intense with you, Joe. We were talking about things that I get so adamant because I see people going through processes and we live in a toxic environment. We're faced with things that are happening around us. And it's an evolutionary leap to think that, okay, now we have to get rid of all this stuff. We can't just keep, we can't store it within our Bodies. And so when we're physically getting rid of this toxic waste, we're emotionally releasing, we're getting rid of, like Frank says, all this stuff that isn't you, so that you can really be connected to who you are. And that's why I'm so, you know, that's why I get so excited about people understanding what effect this environment and this world is having on them as well.

Yeah.

Well, in a moment, I want to actually give some specifics and I'd love to hear both of your perspectives on how people can take this conversation we've had and make the very most of it. And like I said in the beginning, you'll hear noises in the background. There's people that. There's dogs. Have you ever had a bear, like, show up here?

I have not had a bear yet.

First off, describe Grace Grove, where we're at. I mean, might as well. Again, we'll make a plug for what Grace Grove is all about. It's gracegrove.com and what is this place?

Thanks, Joe. Well, you know, we were created out of my process. I mean, I went through a process of waking up. And when I went through that process, my whole life was dedicated toward helping people to wake up. And that's where Grace Grove came into existence. We're sitting on a 15 acre peninsula here. Oak Creek flows all the way around us. So it's not just people coming and cleansing and detoxifying, but they're also getting their bare feet on this earth. They're communing with nature, they're out in the land. I'm looking at our orchard over here and our gardens. And, you know, those are the things that I think we forget when we get so tied up or get addicted to our lifestyles that we miss out on.

And.

And thank you for the opportunity to tell people about that. Absolutely.

Absolutely. With the movie and me being who I am, being a marketer and I believe marketing is really storytelling and whenever you see, hear, watch a good story, it can move you, it can open doors, it could close doors, it could give you a new perspective. And there's a lot that could be done with it. How can people get involved with this? I mean, can. Someone was listening to this and they wanted to set up a movie premiere of May I Be Frank. If they just simply want to buy the movie, is there a movement built around this? What would you love to see happen?

Actually, with all due respect and humility, I look at it as ministry, quite frankly, and I'm not religious, but that's what I think of it, I think of it as a type of ministry where we're encouraging. I mean the three of us are involved with the same, we're all in the same boat here. And I think it's really encouraging people and enrolling people and participating in their own well being and also demonstrating that it's possible. The film was shot a number of years ago. But I'm still, you know, I'm, you know that I'm still maintaining that it's not. I didn't yo yo or anything like that. So if they wanted to get in touch with, you know, if they wanted to get by the film or if they wanted to, if they wanted to hold, hold a screening, they could get in touch, you know, get in touch with me or actually Cat Mida M A I D A Cat Cat Dot Maida and the brains of the operation will direct you. Other than that, the other thing is that we're setting up a website so that people have a go to place so that they know like they have for example Grace Grove or other places around the country that I've been to that are wellness centers. And also they can read my blogs and see what I've done and you know, what I've gone through which is.

May I speak frankly?

May I speak frankly?

Is it. May I speakfrankly.com?

Isn'T everything.com it is. You got your book coming out too in January. But to answer your questions, that's the way I see my role. And I think one of the reasons I resonate with so much with, with, with Morgan and what you're, what we're doing here is that, is that the goal is to enroll people to participate in their well being for them to, to practice good citizenship and good stewardship by taking care of themselves. And everything else is ancillary. All these ancillary things will take. Take care of themselves. If we start with, you know, with, with. With ourselves. We from within.

So without.

As within. So without. And so that's my goal and fortunately people are coming around me that know a lot more about stuff that I don't know. Like you. I'm Morgan. To help me bring that out there.

Yeah. Well, whenever I come across something that is inspiring and I think could be incredibly useful for people, it's just in my nature to want to share it. And I have, you know, a platform and a, a small place where I can actually do that. So I wanted to do that today. And one thing I will say is that I've never been someone that has pretended that I have my shit together. There's a lot of areas. What I do know is that if.

You told me that, I would just tell you right away, hey.

Great.

I would say, don't quit your day job.

Right, Right.

You strike me in the same way. You're very open about, you know, flaws and stuff, but at the same time, you've gotten rid of a lot of shit, and I think that's great, and that's the hope for everyone here. I mean, there is no perfect thing. I don't. You know, no one's ever going to walk out their back porch and they're totally rich. They've got no problems. Everything's.

Well, that's another thing. You know, I don't know if I don't remember if we. If we touched on this, that, you know, that it's. It's. I think it's really more difficult for people who have their. Their outside lives together.

Oh, because of the image manager.

You know, the image. You know, image manager is a really fancy word for ego. It's a very. It's like image management sounds so much better than ego, doesn't it? Yeah, but. But it's what it is. It's like. And you see how we cover how we. It's sort of like killing, you know, killing somebody is now neutralizing somebody. It's like, that's. You know what I mean? Neutralize your collateral damage. What, did they lose change on the way up there?

What.

You know what I mean? It's like. It's. It's like all these.

These.

These. You know, Orwell talks about that at great length and. And so. So I sympathize with people like the Kennedys. Right. Those kids that. A couple of them died. Because when you're on that level doesn't mean you have any secret wisdom. You're just the same as. You have the same makeup as the carpenter or the plumber. Just that you happen to be a Kennedy, but your spirit is the divine does not make a distinction, and we do. But people that have their outsides really together, I think, have a much greater challenge to transcend these things.

I completely agree. And I have met many very successful people that had so much pain and so much suffering, and it exists everywhere. First off, I'm glad you put the movie together.

Thank you.

I'm glad it happened. And I celebrate your transformation and all the progress that you've made. And anyone that has no idea what I'm talking about yet, once you see the movie, I'm sure you'll get a whole new perspective. And also, I know that if you've listened to this entire interview, if you've.

Listened to this entire interview, we love you. We want to meet you.

That is hysterical. There are people that you can share this with that you may be aware of, that need to hear. So I'd love to hear your comments, wherever the heck this thing shows up, and share it with anyone in your life that may be going through some struggles. Pick up a copy of May I Be Frank. The film. Watch it, and, you know, we just wish you the very best. Morgan, anything else you want to say? Any famous last words?

No. Joe, thanks so much for taking time and seeing the beauty of this film and sharing it. Thank you very much.

And thank you so much for taking the time, and it was a really enlightened conversation.

Absolutely.

Very much.

You're welcome. Thank you. Okay, everyone, have a great day. And today is the last day of the way you used to be.

Arrivederci. All right.

Bye.

Bye. Sam.