Get What You Want In Any Situation Almost EVERY Time: The I Love Marketing Live Virtual Q&A with Joe Polish, and Dean Jackson Featuring Chris Voss - I Love Marketing Episode #389

You know, there's a difference between being assertive and being aggressive. I need you to assert your best interests. Otherwise you're relying on me to read your mind about what's best for you. So for everybody out there, you've got to be assertive. You don't have to be an asshole when you do it. You know, the trick is to be assertive without being a jerk. Now, cooperation is sometimes a little more passive. And I want you to be collaborative. I want you to wade in. I don't want you to leave it to my mind reading to know what's best for you. And sometimes if we lean too far in the direction of cooperation, we find ourselves in a resentful position. And that's not good long term. So, you know, I want all of you to step up and politely let people know what you need. Everything in life is a negotiation, even when you may not realize it. Listen in as Chris Voss, former FBI hostage negotiator and CEO of Black Swan Group, shares what every entrepreneur needs to learn about negotiating effectively for results that are easy, lucrative and fun. In this episode, Chris, Joe and Dean discuss how to transform a stressful experience into an opportunity and ultimately success. Chris shares a ridiculously simple negotiating technique, how to propose a counteroffer they can't resist, and why the word no is more important than the word yes. And he'll teach you the first step to becoming a master negotiator in business and in life.

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If you'd like to join world renowned entrepreneurs at the next Genius Network anal event, then apply today for your invitation to attend. If you'd like to learn more about the Genius Network Anal event or to apply, go to geniusnetwork.com first off, welcome.

To the December I Love Marketing Meetup group. Big shout out to Charlie and Dave. If you're not currently subscribing to our YouTube channel, go do that. And also subscribe to I love Marketing so that you do not miss any of the episodes that are coming out starting next year, I will literally be off the grid for an entire year. Dean Jackson, Tim Poulson, all kinds of amazing guests, probably even. We'll see what Chris Voss thinks. Chris is now part of faculty at Genius Network. He's part of Our Genius Network 100K group, which is awesome. So I'll introduce Chris in a moment. He doesn't really need an introduction, but I'm going to do a good introduction for him anyway. In case you're not, you're one of those people that has not yet read his amazing book Never Split the Difference. You're going to want to read it again even if you've read it after this, because I think it's going to add a whole other layer of understanding to his incredible work and we're just going to have some awesome stuff lined up for next year for Everybody. So. In 2008, Chris founded the Black Swan Group which specializes in solving business communication problems using hostage negotiation solutions. In May 2017, he published the national bestseller Never Split the Difference. This book here, Negotiating as if youf Life Depended On It. Chris has used his many years of experience in international crisis and high stakes negotiations as an FBI agent to develop a unique program and team that applies these globally proven techniques to the business world. Chris and his team have helped companies secure and close better deals, save money and solve internal communication communication problems between senior management and employees. Prior to 2008, Chris was the lead international kidnapping negotiator for the Federal Bureau of Investigation FBI as well as the FBI's hostage negotiation representative for the National Securities Council Hostage Working Group. Before becoming the FBI lead international kidnapping negotiator, Chris served as the lead crisis negotiator for the New York City Division of the FBI. Chris was a member of the New York City Joint Terrorist task force for 14 years. He was the case agent in such cases as terror stop the TW Flight 800 catastrophe and negotiated the surrender of the first hostage taker to give up in the Chase Manhattan bank robbery hostage taking. During Chris's 24 year tenure in the FBI, he was trained in the art of negotiation by not only FBI but Scotland Yard and Harvard Law School. He's also recipient of the Attorney General's Award for Excellence in Law Enforcement and the FBI Agents Association Award for Distinguished and Exemplary Service. Chris has taught business negotiation in the MBA program as an adjunct professor at the University of Southern California's Marshall School of Business and Georgetown University McDonough School of Business. He's also taught business negotiations at Harvard University, guest lectured at the Kellogg School of Management and Northwestern University, the IBM Business School in Switzerland and the Business School in Frankfurt, Germany. So there's a hell of a lot more that I can say about Chris. I've gotten to know Chris also. He's just an awesome guy, incredibly bright, incredibly helpful, very, very sharp. And we're going to not only talk about negotiation, but Chris is, I think, probably the number one best selling negotiation author maybe of all time. He's sold well over a million copies of Never Split the Difference, which is a testament to the value of this book. And how much value people get out of it. So it is with great pleasure that we welcome to our live I Love Marketing meetup, our good friend, Mr. Chris Voss.

So, Chris, thanks, brother. I appreciate that. I appreciate all the kind words. It's very good to be here. Good group. A group I'm really happy to be with.

Yeah, thank you. What didn't I say about you that people like, what are you up to? And things that are some of the current stuff you're on that would be useful for people to know before we all. We'll ask you some questions and we're going to have some time we'll leave for people here that can ask some questions also.

Yeah, well, we, you know, wow. We got a lot of stuff going on. I mean, I get, I. You get stuff done by having a great team. I mean, we're, you know, we're getting, we're going to kick a documentary into gear with Nick Nant this year.

Yeah.

We've been in discussions with CNBC about a possible TV show. We're cranking up the YouTube channel. We got another book coming out in May. I mean, I got a good team. I'm a blessed guy. I got, I got, I got a good team. I get good friends. And you guys, you know, you're one of my friends that I'm blessed to know.

Yeah, thank you. Thank you. So, you know, I've interviewed you, man, quite a few times. You've done full training sessions at Genius Network. You're going to be teaching Genius Network negotiations as part of next year. So I'm super happy to have you in Genius Network. So thank you for that. And I've asked you a lot of questions. Some of them I'm going to ask you again because I think it's a great reminder. And every time I've asked you some things, you always add a different twist to it because I know that you're constantly honing what it is you do, even though you are like probably the world's leading master at this stuff. So I just want to ask you, what's your definition of negotiation? Just the, you know, the term negotiation and what are the fundamentals of negotiation that every entrepreneur should learn?

Well, negotiation, really, it's great collaboration. I mean, and in negotiating you should be, you should be gathering information and influence and use them, you know, to create a great collaborative collaboration is the key. Because if it's not a collaborative outcome, you know, you got, you got long term failure coming at you. You know, my, our co author of Never Split the Difference Tall Roz. It's his contention. First of all, Tal's a brilliant dude. Any business book that you run across at Tal's name is on Pick it up. It's going to be a good read. He's a business book writer, genius. But he said that he thinks, you know, ancestrally, and I know that's not exactly the right word, but that we're hardwired to collaborate. The only ones of our ancestors, the cavemen that survived that, you know, were hardwired into from genetics, are the ones that collaborated. So we're hardwired to collaborate as human beings in great negotiations about a great collaboration.

I agree. That's really. I talk a lot about that, about. The reason we refer people is because of that same thing that we're playing. The cooperation game is this game that's gotten us to be the most successful species in the history of the universe. Right. That in order for it to work, we have to be able to collaborate. Somebody goes out and does the hunting, we have to be able to trust that the people on the back at the village are going to hold down the fort. There's so much about that I hadn't thought about it that way. But collaboration is the same kind of thing as cooperation.

Yeah.

And I like that thought a lot because I'm going to draw a real fine point, a subtle point on two words. The difference between cooperation and collaboration.

Good.

Collaboration is both people waiting in and being. You know, there's a difference between being assertive and being aggressive. I need you to assert your best interests. Otherwise you're relying on me to read your mind about what's best for you. So for everybody out there, you've got to be assertive. You don't have to be an asshole when you do it. You know, the trick is to be assertive without being a jerk. Now, cooperation is sometimes a little more passive. And I want you to be collaborative. I want you to wade in. I don't want you to leave it to my mind reading to know what's best for you. And sometimes if we. If we lean too far in the direction of cooperation, we find ourselves in a resentful position, and that's not good long term. So, you know, I want all of you to step up and politely let people know what you need, because otherwise you're relying on them to read your mind, and that decreases your percentage chances of success.

This is one of my favorite things that I've observed about as I'm getting to know you is the you're a wordsmith. As I love the distinctions in words, and that makes a big difference. I think people have linked assertive and aggressive as the same thing. Especially people who are not likely to be assertive, that they kind of miscommunicate or misinterpret it, that they need to be aggressive when the. Really, what they're trying to be is a sort of. You can be assertive politely, like you just said. That's kind of a. That's a great thing. Really.

I agree with you completely. One of the most assertive people on earth, somebody I'm a big fan of, Oprah Winfrey. You don't think of her as being aggressive. You know, I've talked about her enough that I've had people close to her detail to me some very specific conversations she had with people where she was extremely assertive. You know, if you were to boil down her message to one sentence, it would be, it's my way or the highway. But she says it in such a supportive and nurturing and loving fashion that people go, okay. Yeah.

When you say it in a way that it's like, it's okay that if that's not your way, that's fine with me. In a way. Right?

Yeah. You know what? That's. That's it. Exactly. She always says, if it's not your way, it's fine with me. And no matter what, I will always love and support you.

Yes.

You know what? That's interesting because I have met Oprah twice, briefly. The second time, but the first time, I spent about 15 minutes talking with her at Maryville Resort over about 20 years ago, and she was at the resort for the first time. And my friend used to be the spa director there. And lo and behold, like, Oprah kind of walks around the corner, and she looks so tired that I couldn't even bring it to myself. I wanted to ask her if she'd do an interview, because even 25 years ago is when I first started doing interviews. But she looked so tired that I didn't bring up a single thing about business or anything. I was just talking to her about the equine experience using what, like, horses is this therapeutic thing that they were doing at this spa, and people were coming up to her, and she just, like, had to just dismiss them. But you're right, Chris. The way she did it was, I mean, extremely assertive. But also the tone of her voice, the way she did it. But, I mean, there was no doubt that, you know, like, don't talk to me and that sort of thing. So it's yeah, I think that. So, I mean, to master something, Chris, from like mastering the skill of negotiation here, you obviously have a book. We wanted to have you come on. Because certainly what you can teach people can change the trajectory of their life and the results that they get and how they interact, not just in business, but in all areas in life. What are your thoughts on mastery? I mean, you even have a masterclass. You have trainings. I mean, what does it take for someone to get to that level?

You know, it's repetition, small stakes practice for high stakes results. Be willing to make mistakes and then learn, learn from your mistakes. Now that seems obvious, but first of all, most people over the age of 25 don't want to make mistakes. You know, you're horrified, you're embarrassed, you know, you find mistakes embarrassing. And so that's the first problem. I mean, that's a real problem. And then the second thing is then learning from the mistakes. You know, it's practice makes perfect, but perfect practice makes perfect. Learn from your mistakes and be willing to get better. Like we, you know, we get internally, we got sort of a game that we play on getting sweet upgrades in hotels for free. It's a little bit of a contest. My son Brandon prides himself on always getting a better room in a hotel than me, and I'm paying the bills, but he taught us how he does it. And last time I was in a hotel and I happened to be in Dallas for a football game just a couple of weeks ago, I did it badly and I got the sweet upgrade. And afterwards, as I was going through it in my mind, I was like, ah, I made a mistake. I got to do this better. But it was a learning, it was a repeat experience for me. You know, I was willing to make a mistake and then and relearn, get back into practice because negotiation is a perishable skill. It's not riding a bike. If you're bragging about a negotiation that you did a long time ago, then you're out of practice because you should have a recent victory or not quite a victory that you could talk about and get better from. So it takes practice.

So, Chris, where is negotiation not utilized in life?

Yeah, you know, I don't know where it's not utilized. I mean, when are you not trying to get smarter? When are you not trying to gather information? When are you not trying to have influence in a good way? Again, this was with this collaborative thing that I referred to earlier about, I mean, using your powers for good and not evil. If you collaborate, if you want to hurt people, it's going to catch up with you. But if I'm only information gathering, maybe, and I don't want to have influence on the outcome, maybe that's it. But negotiation is involved in everything. Negotiation. One of my favorite stories is negotiation involved when you order at Starbucks, it's in everything. And the reason why it's involved at Starbucks, which most people say it's not. I had a guy tell me that a Starbucks employee told him that he gave decaf to people that were mean to him.

Sometimes you're in negotiation, you don't even know you're negotiating.

Exactly. When you don't know you're in.

That's right.

Yeah, exactly. You're like, you're the recipient of what happens when you're an asshole to people.

Right, Exactly.

So, going back to collaboration. So let's frame it this way. So you've been in some pretty serious life or death situations. I mean, the top international FBI hostage negotiator was one of your roles that you've done in your pretty expansive life. How does someone who's threatening to blow someone's head off wanting money or whatever, that they're looking for freedom from their crimes, how do you view that as a collaboration?

Yeah. Well, it sounds like a cliche, but what are their actions or their threats? In a larger view, what are they designed to get? And whether or not you're a terrorist or you're a CEO or you're a paperboy, it doesn't matter. We're all kind of after a few of the same things, you know, we want a better tomorrow. You know, we want to live. We want to flourish. We want to prosper no matter what. You know, there's a higher purpose, you know? You know, bank robber says they need to call in 60 seconds or she dies, which is one of our favorite exercises. A guy wants to live, you know, a terrorist who is a demand, I'll kill this person. If we don't have this political demand, they have greater aspirations. I was training hostage negotiations in the United Arab Emirates a little over 10 years ago. They brought me in to sit down with the sheikh that was in charge. Brilliant guy, American educated, interesting dude. I mean, an interesting dude. And they told me before I sat down with the sheik, if they had any, you know, if they had al Qaeda come in. The sheikh wanted to kill him. You know, he said, understand, the sheikh is not here for you to save terrorist lives. The sheik is here for you to save lives of innocent people in the Emirates. I Want your guys to get on the phone and say to a terrorist, what you're doing is a great thing. And the Sheikh's mouth fell open. And I said, and when they do, they're gonna have them the same way I've got you right now. You can't wait to hear what I'm going to say next. Because there's a larger purpose to the action. So, you know, a business person in, somebody's demanding a price reduction, they're under pressure. You don't talk about, don't talk about the price reduction. Say, sounds like you're under a lot of pressure here. Sounds like you're really up against, you're really up against. It sounds like you're backed into a corner. Get out of reacting to what they said and think about in a bigger picture, what are they really after? And it's pretty much always the same thing. Because all human beings are hardwired the same. Yeah.

So what's the most stressful negotiation you've ever been in? And how did you, how did you deal with it?

Talking to my sister earlier today. You know, the ones we all struggle with, the closer somebody is to us, the harder it is for us. Because it just becomes harder and harder to get out of our own way. Anytime that if I can step back at all, then I can get myself under control. And usually the way I step back is, you know, I'll vary my tone of voice. There's a couple different ways to step back. To get yourself out of a reactive judgmental mode, get yourself out of, out of, you know, an angry mode. You know, they say give a speech when you're angry, it'll be the greatest speech you ever regret. You know, when your buttons are getting punched, you're actually dumber. And you're also simultaneously more self righteous. So it's not emotions that are bad, it's negative emotions. And anytime you can, you can take a step back in any way, take a deep breath. I mean, you know, we're seeing all this stuff from traditional thought that now is being backed up with scientific data. Taking a deep breath is a way to step back. You know, that book Breathe is out there. I was thinking actually earlier today, you know, because I got a little heated up in conversation with my sister and. But then I happened, you know, it was time for me to. I took cold shower. I take cold showers for health reasons. I instantly, my mental state changed, cool off, literally physically, you know, so I've, you know, I varied quite a bit from your original question. What was the most Stressful negotiation you were in. Anytime that I don't have a sounding board, if I'm in it by myself and I don't have somebody on my side as a sounding board, then I'm not in as good a position. I've had some kidnappings that were ugly. You're not going to bat a thousand. You're just not. Anybody wants to give you negotiation strategy that says works every time, they're lying to you. I told somebody in a conversation recently, hostage negotiators had a 93% success rate, which is an enviable success rate for any sales or business person. 93% success. But that meant we shot the bad guy 7% of the time. So engage in skills that increase your batting averages and don't expect yourself to be perfect.

Okay, got it. So what is your process for like, fleshing out a situation and then determining the best approach to take? Because you have to size things up and sometimes you have to size them up relatively quickly. So how do you speak to that?

All right, so the first thing is, Colin Paul said a long time ago, never let your ego get so attached to the position that if the position collapses, your ego goes with it. What does that have to do with what you just asked me? What it has to do with what you just asked me is when you size things up initially understand that you're going to get in more data and your assessment of the situation is going to change. So, yes, initially, I'm going to size the other side up for collaboration. I'm going to size them up for whether or not they're ELF or half. Everybody knows what that is. I live by those phrases. I use them every day. I'm going to try to figure out if they're ELF or half. Are they easy, lucrative and fun? Are they hard and annoying, lame and frustrating? And then I'm going to be willing to adapt that as I go on. I'm going to use a couple of negotiation skills that are the diagnostic tools, mirrors and labels. I'm going to repeat something that they just said to get them to go on. I'm going to label what they just said. It sounds like this is important to you. Anything to give me more data as we're going through to back up whether or not they're L for half. Conversely, what am I to them? Am I the favorite of the fool? If you don't know who the fool in the game is, it's probably you. In point of fact, and I bet the ranch on this, 20% of everybody's opportunities. 20% of business opportunities are fake opportunities. We actually think that the number is higher than that. 20% of the time the person is coming to you for your good or your service. They're looking for you to be a competing bid only. They're looking for you to flesh out their due diligence. They're looking for you to be the rabbit to drive the price down on the other side. 20% of the time. Why do I think the number is 20 and it's actually much higher? There's a book out there called the Challenger Sale. They ran a survey. They asked business people, how often do you actually lie to a vendor? You have no intention of doing business with them, but you're acting like you do because you need a competing bid. You're only doing due diligence. Executives responded about 20% of the time. Now, did they exaggerate or did they minimize? Because basically what they asked the executives was, how long do you lie to someone? How often do you lie to someone about whether or not you're going to do business with them? There's no way they exaggerated. They had to have minimized. So part of my assessment at the very beginning is, am I the favorite of the fool? If I'm the fool in the game, I'm going to be Oprah. I'm going to be nice and say, go away. But I'm going to say, go away.

That makes anybody just go away and feel better.

Be nice. Always be nice. Abn. Don't always be closing. Always be nice. Always be nice.

I like that.

So let me ask you this, Chris. So what's the most valuable negotiation technique or strategy that you've ever learned, and why is it so valuable? Because you know a lot of them.

You know, one of the simplest ones. All right, let's go with simplest. Mirroring. Repeating the last three words of what someone just said.

The last three words?

Yeah, you know the last three words. Just repeat the. Nice job, Dean. I know what you're doing to me. I know what you're doing for a minute.

There you go.

Right away. Without even, how dare you put me on me.

Nice.

No. If you can master that skill. Because a lot of times you just need some time to think. You know, everybody says, boy, you know, now that I'm thinking about it, I know what I wish I would have said. And now that I'm thinking about it, now I see what I missed. That mirror technique, the last three words buys you that time in the moment without the other side realizing that's what you're doing because they're going to go on, they're going to talk some more, they're going to add a lot in. One of the crazy things about the MERIT technique is it's a preferred move of the people that possess both a high IQ and a high eq. Now I cannot explain why that is the case. I can speculate on it. I think if they are high in both areas, they love the simplicity of it and the lack of effort and the data loving people. So they love how little they have to do to get a bunch of information out of the other side. But that's probably the single most valuable thing that you could learn.

Simply very good. Very good. Well, so we've talked about this one before, but it's always so important because you've shifted, you've helped so many people just with this one. So why is the word no more important than yes? And if you could give an example.

Wow.

Wow. Yeah. Okay. So the key to negotiation, it's not about you. We hear this all the time. But here you hear no and you go like, oh my God, oh my God, I hate no. I hate being told no. I think we get that conditioned. Every child on earth, regardless of their language, what's the first word they learn? No. Because they get told no and they get pointed at them and no, don't do that. No, no, no. So we get it beat into a hardwired into us. So when we hear it, something horrible has just happened. But the flip side, the person who's saying it feels protected and safe and they calm down and they relax. They feel like they just protected themselves. The other thing too is you can say no when you're tired and then immediately contribute to the conversation and think things through really quickly. So it's completely different if it's about them. People love to say no.

They feel.

And they're gonna, they're gonna say a bunch more afterwards. You know, I got, I got a couple no stories that I love, but I'll tell one of my favorites. Robert Herjavec. We're negotiating with Robert Herjavec's crew over how many tickets are gonna buy for one of our training events. I've already offered him one. His response for free. His response to the one for free was how many can we buy? Not how many more free ones can we get. I'm a huge Robert Herjavec fan. Based on my interaction with them, I find him to be a generous, decent human being. So we're going back and forth and the event is Getting ready to sell out. And my son Brandon, who runs my company, he calls me on the phone late in the day. I'm in la. He says, you get herjavec to commit how many tickets are gonna buy now or they're gonna be sold out by the time the sun rises in New York tomorrow. Cause my son's on east coast time. We're getting ready to sell the event out. And Brandon says, and if he doesn't buy any, I'm giving away, I'm selling a ticket that we're supposed to be giving him for free. So I'm like, all right, I got to cut this deal. Now it's five o' clock in la. When's the last time you tried to get a hard decision out of somebody at 5 o'? Clock? At 5:03 and also an email at 503. I sent a two line email to Robert Herjavec. Is it a ridiculous idea for you to commit to buying three tickets now? Second line. Are you against paying for them before the business day starts in New York tomorrow? Again, we're three hours behind New York. The time stamp on his email response is 5:04, one minute later. No, we'll commit to the three tickets right now. No, it's not a problem. We'll pay for them right away. Send me a link. We'll pay for them right now. Within the hour I send them the link, we get the money at 523. Get people to say no. You'll be shocked at the responses you get.

Fantastic. There's some questions that people have, but what I'm going to ask everyone, save your questions. When we open it up for Q and A, I might ask you to repost them because it's sometimes hard for me to track everything and be present here too. So Chris, how might an entrepreneur use these strategies and techniques that you teach to better understand and serve their clients?

Well, yeah, I mean, first of all, in simply understanding them better will help you serve them, you know. All right, so let's say you're the favorite and let's say that they're elf. They're not half. They want you to dial into them. You know, you, you want to be open to a better deal, which is you tailoring your services to them so that it better serves them and it's more lucrative for you because first of all, I'm going to presume that everybody on this call believes the same thing that I do, that you over deliver. So first of all, if you're over delivering, you are bargaining whatever you were charging anyway, which means if you tailor your service, your good of service, so that it's a better delivery for them, you're worth even more. Yes, you want to get what you do. No, don't. Don't be greedy. Don't grab with both hands. But when you provide a service that's worth it, you are entitled to be paid. So the more that you listen to them and understand them, and I'm here to tell you there are ways that you can tailor whatever you're providing that would be easier for you to provide it, which means it would be more profitable for you and it would be better for them. So be willing to engage in conversations and be open to that. And then the other crazy thing is there might be something really counterintuitive that'll make it profitable for you in unexpected ways. And one of my favorites is our mutual friend Dan Sullivan. He's talking about his book deal. He's talking about listening to me. Never split the difference. I don't pound people on price. So Dan turns around and gives every dime of the book proceeds. And then Ben and Tucker. Tucker says, dan got the last drop of my blood. When you're not greedy on the price term, what the other side gives you back might be worth 10 times what the dollars were worth. And those guys, I think those guys, I think Ben and Tucker die for Dan.

The beauty of Dan, too, is. And I think it's one of the reasons, I mean, heck, me and Dan have done podcasts on this is we like reciprocal people. We like people that are generous. We like people that are useful. And it's just so much easier to. That's what an elf person is. People keep asking, what does elf mean? Elf is easy, lucrative, and fun. And half is hard, annoying, lame, and frustrating. It's actually a term I got over 20 years ago from my friend Mark Schneider, who unfortunately passed away, but I heard him say elf years ago. And I said, I'm going to develop that into something because I started thinking of all the different business methodologies you can use in terms of marketing and the stuff that me and Dean Jackson teach on. I love marketing. It's elf marketing. It's automated, it's robotic. But then I started thinking, how do you. You can filter everything through an elf filter? What are people? What are projects? What are things that you're doing? Are they easy, lucrative, and fun? Or are they hard, annoying, lame, and frustrating? Sometimes people can be hard, annoying, lucrative, and frustrating. Not all money is created equal. So elf is a really great filter. And I'm super happy, Chris, that you're referring to that, because I think it just offers some framing. So, yeah, I mean, this is. Once you. Once you become skilled at utilizing what Chris is teaching and what he's talking about here, you will find a lot of things in your life that were difficult become more elf. And that's the whole goal, is to bring ELF to people in all areas of their entrepreneurial endeavors.

I'm going to jump in real quick because there's one more tangent I want to go on to on half. And now before you fire your half clients. And we just shifted into this recently, we got a couple of deals that were proposed to us, and they were half deals before we walked away. And I had this conversation with my son Brandon and everybody else in our company. When it came up, I said, what's the counteroffer that would make this an ELF deal before we walk? Maybe they don't know that this is half. Maybe they don't understand it. And there's a pretty good chance of what you know, the chances are that they're going to offer you a half deal because they don't know any better. They can't help themselves. There's a whole bunch of reasons. I said, let's counter with what would make this an ELF relationship. At that point, there's no doubt in anybody's mind what we're looking for. And they had the option to take it or leave it, and we have the option to take it or leave it. And we turned a couple of deals around with that by simply countering. Instead of saying goodbye so long. We said, all right, here's what would work for us. Here's what would make us want to do business with you forever and make us want, 10 years from now, look back on the last 10 years and say that was cool and we threw it out there, and the batting average is actually pretty high on that. You know, we don't counter offer their offer term by term. We construct what would be great for us and how we would love to do business with them before we walk. And you'd be surprised at how many people will embrace that because they just didn't know any better.

Do you ever have situations, Chris, where you look outside of the scope of what will be the immediate terms that are on the negotiation, to see, to draw in other things that might tip things some way or be an influence? I was thinking about how, you know.

That'S a great question, man. I'm glad you brought that up. We're trying for that all the time. And you know, how do you know what you don't know? What we'll do is we'll start to say, let's brainstorm this a little bit. Like, here's some ideas that people have gotten in the past. Start throwing out wacky stuff that people brought up and that will kick their brain into gear. So, yeah, try to kick them into a collaborative brainstorming process to look for how to get outside the scope. But I mean, I love that question because that's absolutely what everybody should be doing.

Because often you look at, I think about situations that we're isolating this situation, but if you kind of get a step of altitude above it, looking down on it and seeing what's, what's happening before this and during this, after this, and maybe instead of this, if you don't do this, what's the alternative going on by seeing all of it, you can. I'd love, I looked up because I love the fact that you're a real wordsmith too. I looked up just negotiate. The definition of negotiate is one of them that I like is find a way over or through an obstacle or a difficult path. Like that is in brackets an obstacle or a difficult path. But find a way over or through. That's really what you're saying. It's not your way or my way or, you know, win something. It's together. You know, I'm a big fan of your masterclass, by the way, to on Masterclass. If you guys haven't seen that, that's definitely worth watching. But one of the things that you talked about on that was, was something around that about, you know, looking at the bigger picture of everything, I think.

Yeah, no, thank you. I love the way you put that negotiation synonym for navigation.

Love it. Nice.

And thanks for the plug for the masterclass.

So great. It's so great. Worth it.

Yeah. And by the way, Chris, I want you, you know, during this, I want you to. We're going to definitely tell people where to go to get more Chris Voss. I mean, I think everyone that is qualified, that runs at least a million dollar plus company and has massive integrity and is a giver should look at joining Genius Network because Chris is now part of the faculty at Genius Network, which is awesome. So it's a good way to get, you know, some personal.

I'm super excited about that interactive masterclass.

Yeah, exactly.

Right. Yeah, it's. It's an honor, man. I, you know how much I think of you and everybody associate with Joe.

Thank you, Chris. Yeah, thank you. I really appreciate that. So if so, let me ask you this one first. What do you do when a situation with a person or say many people in any area goes from bad to worse?

Yeah, well, you know, probably depending upon how you approach it. I mean, if it's bad to worse, horse they're half and we're getting out. You know, I don't believe in blood money. It's an abundant world. I mean, it's an abundant world if you let it be. There are tons of people out there that are dying to do business with you that you want to do business with them. So every, every, everyone that you're in a bad situation with, if it's going from bad to worse, that might be a sign it's time to go.

Yeah.

If it's going. If for whatever reason, you know, we're not going to withdraw, we're not going to withdraw with honor. You know, the first thing to do, turnaround move, if you want to turn it around, the turnaround move, is to summarize the other side's perspective. And until you get a that's right. Out of them, like, period, like, you do not proceed until you get a that's right out of them. Now it will turn them and you around. You know, in the book we got coming out, one of my son's stories, he's with his now wife and mother of his child and they're splitting up. She is packing a leaf a couple years ago. She's out, she's gone. Now he loves her, another perfect match. And she doesn't want. He doesn't want her to go. So he decides he's going to lay a little black swan on her. He's going to summarize. He's going to get a that's right. Out of her. So as she's packing, he gets her to sit down and he summarizes her perspective. You know, in the recent vice presidential debate, you know, the two candidates said, you're entitled to facts, but you're not entitled to your own facts. When you summarize, you're summarizing the other side's facts. You're not summarizing your facts, summarizing their facts. He got a vats right out of her. And she said, okay, I'll stay. He didn't make a case, he didn't make an argument. He didn't summarize all the stuff that he did right now when he told us that story, that was the first time I heard that story. I said, you realize how much that leveled you out by Just taking a hard look at it from her perspective. Because the whole process of stepping back and trying to simply articulate, not agree, simply articulate her perspective completely got him out of anger, completely leveled him out. It did more for him than it did for her, and it did a lot for her. So if you really want to turn it around, summarize the other side's facts, summarize to them why they think they're right and you're wrong. And the mere process of doing that will have astonishing results for.

Great. That's fantastic. So. Well, Chris, if someone wants to learn to become a better negotiator, what's the first step that they should or could take, including reading your book or any of your trainings? If you could give some suggestions for that.

Yeah. Well, in practice, stop making your case, stop making your argument. Or let's just reverse the sequence a little bit. Like way back when Covey told us, seek first, understand, then be understood. Hmm. Let's change that and say seek first to make the other side feel understood. Now start practicing this in your small sticks conversations because you're not, you're not gonna, you're not gonna bring this to bear when you got a lot on the line. You're gonna go back to your old habits, whatever they may be, good or bad. You know, with the Starbucks person, with the Lyft driver, with person, you know, the, the checkout person at the grocery store, you know, take, take a shot at them on giving them a real brief. Take a look at their face and see how they feel in a moment and try to give them an idea that you understand what they're going through. Just start experimenting with this stuff in small stakes conversations. You will get results that will encourage you to drop it in to your more important conversations. So how to get better? Right now, just start, you know, mirror the clerk. I talked earlier about mirroring. Just repeat the last three words of what they said. If you can look at them, say, hey, it looks like a tough day, long day, looks like you're tired, anything, Throw something out there to get a few words out of them. Just start practicing all the small stakes stuff.

That's great. Awesome. Dean, anything else you want to ask? And we'll do some Q and A with the audience. And I do have some questions. I'm going to ask Tarnon, my team, to actually post because I'm going to. Chris doesn't even know this yet, but this is going to be something that we're going to be gathering information from people and it'll Be really useful. So.

Oh, yeah, great.

I might do that first. But do you have anything else you want to add before we.

This has been great. I want to keep it going. Let's get some people involved here. Get some questions from the group here.

So here's some questions that I want to ask you guys, and I think we have a slide for it. And I want you to post them below. Post them in the chat. Let's take a couple of minutes to do this and just write number one for each one, what your answer is. Number one, what is your number one? Business blocker? Number two, what is your number one? Business progress killer? Number three, what's the number one ingredient your business is missing? And number four, what's your business blind spot? And we're doing this for a reason, so go ahead and write the answer to this. Chris has sold over a million copies of his book. Never split the difference. And so you know people that have books. He's done a lot of work. First off, I think one of the ingredients is write a really damn good book. Right. So obviously you have to have.

More importantly than writing a really great book, is writing a really great book with a really great title.

Yeah.

So that's a great question. Is it a good title?

Your life is not your fault. What do you think, Dean? I don't know what the.

I'll tell you, like, just honestly at. The thing is. You don't know. I don't know what that is relating to. I don't know where that. Is that because.

Yeah.

Then you're gonna have to read the second part. The subtitle. That's the whole.

What you're.

What is the subtitle?

Let's.

Let's parse it out.

What is what your community can't teach you that you need to know to win big in your personal and professional life.

Okay.

So basically lying that we're.

That I'm. So it seems like implying that I'm not winning. Is that right?

Yes. Considering the emotional health crisis going on in the country right now and recognizing that the systems historically. Now I've been in business for over 30 years and have been in the mentoring coaching side for over 20. And so this is an accumulation of all these years of finally getting this question answered. How do I start or how do I start over?

Right.

This plateau that we seem to always hit. And so I wanted the title to be a little bit. Makes you think I've already had people especially close to me. Like, what do you mean your life's not your fault? Don't you pick yourself up by your bootstraps and so on and so forth. So the idea is it's supposed to be a little counterintuitive.

Yep. So, Darrel, what would you ask Chris Voss that would be helpful for you related to your new book?

This idea of how to just get it in the market in the very beginning, from like, we've been trying to get this thing put out before Christmas because I know it's going to help a lot of people and it's really this sequencing. And I know Dean and Joe set this model up within Genius Network, this amazing book building process that we're all going to go through this year. But I've been working on this now for many, many, many years. And now that it's done and in my hand, you know, waiting another three or four or six months is kind of painful. So I think the big question is, what's the first steps to just getting it out in front of people, knowing what we have access to with technology and the different platforms and so forth?

Well, I gotta tell you something. Yeah, you want to get out of the, out of the gate really quickly, but that has not been the key to success. And never split the difference. You know, the success has really been us being relentless. And so we got another book coming out in May and we're doing everything we can to get out of the gate, coordinate quickly. You know, didn't make any of the lists when never split the difference came out. Opening day was big and then it fell off the cliff. And we just continue to seek ways to be relentless and just not let up on the gas. I mean, we just, we still haven't let up on the gas.

So what do you think? What do you think was that next big step you took after you had that initial launch and you had lots of people working hard for you and pushing out, pushing your book out there. But then, you know, like in many launches and this is what, you know, yeah, we want to have great success up front, but I'm not doing this for bestseller lists and things of that nature. I'm doing it because I know the books are going to have huge impact on people's lives. This is, this was not a, you know, a quick, let's just get it out there. And this is my new business card model. This is something that I think is going to be very, very impactful for a lot of people trying to, trying to create something that you could write that would touch anybody at any point in their life. Because we build a load of Frameworks into the model. So what would be that next phase or the next step that you found that was effective? Was it being involved in these groups, genius network and things of this nature and more organic growth and support from it from a group of people?

Podcast interviews.

Podcast interviews.

Yeah. Yeah. Chris, how many did you do?

Oh, God. Well, there was probably a time when, you know, we got to the point where I was doing a couple a day. You know, the goal was. I remember way back when, you know, I heard that the chicken Soup for the soul guys said, we gotta talk to somebody about the book every day. And so we took that attitude. You know, I didn't. I didn't feel like that it was. I'd had a good day if we hadn't talked to multiple people. And then we got to the point where then at certain levels, you know, a lot of the podcasters are monkey see, monkey do guys, and you. Until they see somebody at their level, see you interviewed by somebody at that level, they're not going to bring you on.

Yeah.

And then there was some that I wished we would have gotten that we never got. And I'm like, all right.

Chris, is the next book a follow on from the first one? Because what we're doing here, this your life is not your fault model for me and for this project is it's actually a franchise model because I've already written about 40,000 words of the second book, which is your life is not your fault, but your business is. So we're building a series of these. This project, if you will.

Yeah, I think that thousand percent. I mean, our next book is effectively, you know, subtitle is derived from an idea that I got on one of the genius network virtual get togethers. And I can't remember who brought it up, but they were talking about book titles, and somebody brought up the phrase the missing manual. And I thought, we know, we know. Since the book came out and the feedback that we've gotten and how our thoughts have changed, what we would plug in and how we would put it out there differently, especially since the book came out and then that. To me, that was a brilliant. And so the next book, the subtitle is the missing manual to never split the difference. So for yours, you've already got the next book written, but you're gonna get some great feedback from the people that are helped by it or the people that should be helped by it, and that'll help make that next book that much better.

Yeah, we've had. We've had really good reviews, so Far, I'll just say a handful of people that we put it in their hands so far and we're tying this thing into which I'm really excited about working with Andre Norman. I've already shipped. He doesn't know it. We just did it last night. We shipped off. I don't a box of them, like 20 or 30 books that are going down to the prison systems and helping people understand the impact that. I mean, if people don't know what Andre's doing, they need to look into it because this guy is a saint. I hope he can jump on here and say a few words, but we're going to work something with him. And I don't know exactly how it's going to all come together, but we're going to. Somebody buys a book, we'll give a book. But we're going to help him build his course and system for inside that prison model so we can get these guys, especially in the current times today they're going to come back into society. And the recidivism rate is extremely high refender rate. And what he's doing in this program is just. It's incredible what he's been able to do. So we're really excited to figure out how we can help him. And like I said, I just think we're gonna help a lot of people with this thing.

So Andre is one of those guys that if he calls me on the phone, asks me to do something, I'm like, you got it. I'm in.

Yeah, he's amazing. And if anybody hasn't bought they need to go get Andre's Ambassador of Hope book as well. He's just an amazing dude. Amazing story. And I'm.

I got back here on my shelf. I know I got it back here someplace.

Yeah. When Joe introduced him, I don't know how many. A couple years ago, I was at one of the first meetings. He was there. And like, that was one of the things that completely sealed me in. Genius Network was what Joe did, bringing Andre in. But then when Andre started talking about what he was doing, it was just. It's kind of over the top. I mean, it was like, what the hell? What are we doing here? What is this thing? What is this Genius Network thing? Right. And so it was one of those real significant moments in time when you have people out there doing amazing work that nobody knows about. So that's why it's important to me.

Thank you. You know, Darrell's the one that actually printed out this 3D, printed this domino that's great. I love using the analogy, the first domino, because the first domino is a huge thing. Andre's been a first domino for many people. Chris here today is going to be a first domino for people hearing and being exposed to Chris, or even if you already were, how it's going to change your trajectory. So what I'd like to do, Darrell, because for people that I'll call out, you know, I'm okay with them plugging their stuff. People that we don't. Don't just, you know, I've scolded people in the past for just pitching shit into the chat, but go ahead and put a link for people to get your book. I also. Andre, are you even there? Can you talk? I know you. I think if you can, Tarna may need to unmute you. But if you want to say anything, Andre, feel free. And we've got some great interviews with Andre that we started doing when the pandemic started, because Andre spent 14 years in maximum security prison, two years in solitary confinement. And I remember him talking about, you know, I'm in the dark. There's no iPad. There's nothing. I mean, you're literally there by yourself. And so we're, you know, we've done some sessions. Even Stedman Graham, who's Oprah's partner, Andre and him work together a lot. They do a lot of stuff in prisons. And so I have a great interview online, which you can watch on YouTube with Stedman and Andre and our Genius network members. So that's. That's really great.

I got. I got my shirt on. Joe, just for the record, my man Big Chris is building Shout out to everybody in Genius. And I love marketing, and I appreciate y' all been here the whole way I'm saying this. Got my notepad out saying, I'm gonna make my book make sense, Dean, and I'm never gonna take less than I'm supposed to.

Chris and Joe, we're gonna heal the world.

Absolutely. Yeah. There we are. So you can check out geniusrecovery.org for people that are struggling with addiction, we just put out free resources. It's an educational platform to help people that struggle with addiction. And so Andre is getting all kinds of books and resources and things in prisons and schools. And so, yeah, and it's just in the starting phases. I mean, we're doing the best we can with all this. Here's another person, a new friend of mine, Amy Chan, who wrote a book called Breakup Boot Camp. And this book literally just came out.

Breakup Boot Camp, the Science of Rewiring your heart. We take a scientific and spiritual approach to healing the heart.

So, for one, I saw my buddy Neil Strauss posted something on Instagram from Amy, and I'm like, well, you know, Neil's an amazing writer. We've had him on. We've had him on. I love Markey a couple of times. Both Dean and I have known Neil for over a decade, and Neil's, like, one of the world's greatest writers. And so when he's, like, plugging somebody's book, I'm like, this is probably. So I've only read, like, the first chapter. That's as far as I've gotten into it, but it's really great. And I'd asked Chris in a previous interview, when you're negotiating, how do you ask someone out on a date? And I'd like to get Chris's take on how do you actually break up with somebody? And I'd love to have Amy just give a real quick plug for her book, because I actually would like to interview Amy on her book before I go on my sabbatical, and we'll put it out there. But, Amy, you want to speak real quick to your book, and I'd love to hear Chris's take on asking someone out and breaking up with somebody.

People think that it's about the breakup. It's never just about the ex. It's recycled pain. And so we deal with a lot of the subconscious beliefs and patterns that it's causing the same emotional experience to repeat over and over, just with different partners. So whether you're single, coupled, dating, or divorced, this book is helpful because it's not about the other person. It's about your relationship with self and understanding those subconscious patterns so that you could shift out of them.

And let me speak to this, too, because you actually talk about the parts that I've read so far about what it actually does to the grief that one experiences, similar to withdrawals from an addiction. And you even quote my dear friend Dr. Ramani Darvasala, who's the narcissist expert who I've interviewed a couple times. She's amazing. And so the book is incredibly valuable, and I think it's really taught me right now. And I'd love to get your take on when someone has to initiate a breakup, how you know people, you hear the word, you know, conscious uncoupling and stuff. But some people can break up with someone and leave a lot of unnecessary devastation in the wake. And I'd like to hear, you know, your take on that.

Amy.

And I'd also like to hear what Chris would say to that.

Yeah, I mean, I think that when breakups happen, whether you're the one doing it or you're the one receiving it, you're still going to go through, through your stages of separation and grief. And, you know, of course, this might sound super simple, but getting to a state of compassion before you have that conversation is super important because what I see often is ghosting or, you know, a text message breakup after dating someone for years. And really, when you look at why people react like that, it goes down to childhood. Like, how did they react to confrontation? How did they react to uncomfortable emotions when they were a kid? Did they withdraw? Did they, were they scolded for having those emotions? So sometimes they bring those patterns in with them and they break up in a way that doesn't have compassion. And so, unfortunately, as much as you want to be friends with the person that you're having a breakup with, you need time for those neural pathways to prune away. Because when you're with someone, you have neural pathways that have been wired together. So I say 60 days of no contact. That means no scrolling their Instagram feed, no looking at text messages, no calling them up, and, you know, getting angry because you're still getting that emotional charge. You're still getting that hit, and that keeps you hooked and attached. And even if you think that you're doing the kind thing by being their friend, it's actually the more selfish thing to do.

Yeah, that's. No, that's, That's. So, Amy, if you could put a link for people to get your book, I would. I imagine just with what's going on in the pandemic, that there's a lot of people right now that could probably benefit from her book. And I think it'd be kind of cool to connect you and Chris together. I'd love to hear a whole, I'd love to hear a longer conversation with Chris and Amy just talking about a relationship, because this is all negotiation. That's at least the way I look at it. Chris, what would you say to any, any negotiation methods for getting in and out of relationships?

Well, you know, I really like what she said in so many ways, particularly about the post event, if you will, behavior and what's best for both you and both of them. And, you know, I've had relationships that didn't work out. You know, I'm a human being. The exits, when I was clear and I was nice, you know, I never want, I don't want Anybody to be in doubt as to why I'm out. And they're not. And. But that doesn't mean you got to be a jerk about it. You know, don't. Don't try to save. When you say you're trying to save them, you're really trying to save yourself. And, you know, people. People need. Don't. Don't let it linger. You know, it's something that has to. You can't. You can't. You can't cut somebody's head off over four or five, six interactions. You know, you gotta. You gotta rip the band aid off. You gotta chop that. Whatever it is for you, but that doesn't mean you gotta be cruel about it. And, you know, when I. When I decided that my previous marriage wasn't working, I walked in, I said, you know, I want a divorce. I'd be happy to talk it through with you. I'm not going to say anything to you that you haven't heard already. She wanted to hear it when I got done. She said, you're right. There's nothing there that you haven't already said. And then that was it. So, you know, who you. Who you trying to spare a lot of times, and I don't know if Amy said it exactly like this, word for word, but I know the thought was there. You know, who you trying to spare? You say you're trying to spare them, but you're probably trying to spare yourself and point the fact. You got to be direct, but you don't got to be mean about it. And then. Then when it's done, it's done. And what's best for both of you to heal afterwards. I loved what you. She said I loved it.

Really good. Thank you. Thank you. So, Chris, if someone wanted to. What. What is. What is the best line or approach for asking someone out for a man or a woman?

Well. All right, so first conversation. You know, I mean, I, you know, again, this isn't. We're coming from a place of integrity here. Understand, this is about your intentions or integrity. I mean, you know, if you walk up to girl and. Or you have the opportunity to say something and, you know, you're not creepy. First of all, you know, I like Neil's advice a lot. You know, you gotta. You get. You get the instinct to pull the trigger. You need to pull the trigger. That's 30 to 60 seconds. Otherwise you look like a stalker. So. But then, you know, say, have you given up on finding the man of your dreams and wait to see what she says after that?

Have you given up, Chris?

I want to know what?

I want to know one thing.

Is this a book report or a field report?

It's a field report. We test drive everything we offer people.

Let me also say this, Dean. I really want you to get the exact words that Chris wrote down. Have you given up on finding the man of your dreams? Okay. I want you to make sure, Dean, that you get that one.

I'm watching Amy react here. I think Amy. Amy. Got a kick out of that one, huh?

Yeah. Amy. You want to say anything else?

I mean, I've had people say lines like that to me. They didn't work out too well in their favor, just from my point of view. Here's the thing. I like, Wait a minute.

Nobody ever said it to you exactly like, you're right.

Totally.

People might not tell you what. Where are you going to be tonight? And I'll approach you. Where are you going to be? You're going to be in Vegas.

I'll meet you in Vegas.

Slot machines. The thing is, people aren't cognitively especially, you know, I don't want to make generalizations, but women might not cognitively process something as romantic chemistry right away. And so sometimes if the opening line is so forward that, hey, this is super. Like, this is a romantic intent. She might be like, oh, I don't see you romantically, and it's shut down. But if it comes in where there's, like, mutual connection, like, oh, this is a fun. Yeah, we have something in common. This is fun and interesting. I'm intrigued. Then I'd be like, yeah, sure, there's no pressure. So my two cents.

No. And by the way, look, I'm just here to have fun anyway. So, I mean, this is all great. I mean, at the end of the day, if you want to get skilled at anything, you know, go deeper with somebody's work, you know, obviously study Chris's material someone posted.

We need some field reports now back from the Genius Network. We need some field data now.

That's exactly right.

By the way, we have Evan Carmichael on here, who's new in Genius Network and actually took. Is doing an amazing job of teaching people how to build a YouTube channel. Evan's got. I think. Can we unmute Evan? Because I'd love to get his take. He has 2.6 million subscribers on YouTube. He has over, I think, close to 400 million views on his videos now. And he did a jam session with Chris Voss during one of the Genius Network meetings, which we recorded. Literally went through Chris's YouTube to show how to just get more people to watch it. So even if you have incredibly valuable content, that's where the marketing and the framing and the positioning and the headlines and all of the things that someone that knows how to master what it is, they do do it. So, Evan, you want to say anything to this since you've actually kind of been sort of immersed a little bit in Chris's work? Yeah. People have been DMing me, asking me when I'm going to have Chris as an interview on my show. So we got to make that happen.

Chris, I gotta tell you something, man. My team has taken your advice to heart. They're implementing it. We love the effects, the impact that it's having. Some of the ideas they were thinking about, and they were really reassured that you offered it and you gave us some new ideas that love. And they're loving the stuff you gave us. Loving it. Cool.

The people here in the chat been DMing me to say, when are you going to come on my show to talk about negotiation and talk about the book?

Let's do it. I bought a. I bought a rebounder now, too, but I'm not good.

Yeah, I'm on my trampoline all day. I'm not. I'm not on drugs or anything, guys.

I'm on my trampoline.

Bottom line is, with all of this, the reason me and Dean. How many episodes have we done now, Dean?

370. Something.

370. I love marketing episodes. Average length, an hour to hour and a half. And there's incredible content. Almost anything that you need solved. And so let's take some questions for the. From the audience. I don't even know where to start.

So I got a good one that I saw here that I'd love to see. I'll kick it off here, Cody. And I don't know if this is most true, but it said Chris is always negotiating on the defense. But what if he was on the offense? If he was. He was the kidnapper or trying to get the car in 60 seconds, how would he. How would you do that? That's an interesting twist.

Yeah, well, never really so sure of what you want that you wouldn't take something better. So the more focused you are on a goal, you know, the more, like, if I want a car or whatever it is, you know, if I'm on offense, offense. I can explain to you intellectually, I can explain to everybody intellectually, inarguably, why there's no way you can know what the best outcome is. There's no way that you know that what you want is the best outcome. And emotionally people like, I know what I want. Okay, fine, but I know what I want. I mean, people get too goal oriented. So, you know, we don't go on offense because the more you go on offense, the more goal focused you are, the more tunnel vision you have. And I want to, I want to tease out a deal. Number one, I know that I don't know the best deal, so I got to be careful about offense. Number two, how is the other side going to perceive me going on offense? I need a long term relationship. I got to be real careful about short term gain for long term pain. So, you know, I don't know that we go on offense. You know, I'm much more interested. You don't got to go on offense when, if your focus is on your elfs, your easy, lucrative and fun people, you don't need offense then because then it'd be. The collaborations are natural.

Thank you. Jeff Madoff.

Jeff Madoff in the house. Inspired by the conversation between you and Amy. Is there a difference when you are negotiating in terms of considering the gender that you are negotiating with? And do women and men negotiate differently? And if so, what's the difference? Women pick this style of negotiation up faster than men do. We've seen that on a regular basis, more emotionally intelligent, focused negotiation. I mean, men as a general rule are not trained to be emotionally intelligent from an early age. You know, little boys are taught, you know, don't let yourself get pushed around, fight on a playground. Little girls are taught by their moms, like eventually they're going to be stronger than you. So you need to learn influence tools sooner because you're not going to be physically more powerful. Now, I don't know what the reason for that is. I've seen some stuff that indicates that possibly there's some wiring differences in gender. But what we do know on a regular basis is women pick this style of negotiation up faster than men do. And as soon as you start jumping into really serious collaboration, gender issues fall away. In terms of bad negotiation, that's almost another conversation entirely. You know, aggressive, blunt force trauma negotiation. But, you know, that ain't my problem because that's not what I teach. So do you think, can you just give an idea of how many women negotiators that in the FBI were there and just the effectiveness Anecdotally, the most spectacular quick defuses of intense situations that I'm aware of were with women. Now I might, there might be a selection bias on my part, but the ones the most spectacular, like quick, astonishing turnarounds, came from female negotiators.

Thank you. So, Catalina, how can I negotiate the rent from €500 to 300 to €200? Because the space is very small, 1.6 m meters, I guess. And I'm in America here, I don't understand what this stuff. And I want to make it double 2.5 meters. I want to open a wine and spirits experience shop in a sweets showroom. Can I have some advice, please? So basically how to negotiate the rent, Chris? Yeah.

Well, like any other business deal, first of all, price is only a term. And the other side is going to be collaborative with you depending upon where it's taken them and depending upon what threats they see in the current environment. So, you know, if your approach with your landlord from the beginning is how can I be the best long term tenant you ever had? Now that changes the game a little bit. So which, how's your approach? If you just start out with I want more for less, here's how you come off. Selfish, you know, you gotta. It's not about you. How do you come off to them? I mean, how do you really come off to them? How do you build their future? With a different deal. Because if you're just looking to cut my throat, why should I give you a deal? But if you're looking to make my life better, if you're looking to be more elf for me, easy, lucrative and fun, now that's a different conversation you can engage your landlord in.

Great, thank you. All right, so this one question, Raymond, when looking for small wins with humans, how are you listening? By watching people to see where they are at and have an observational, proper response with mirror or anything useful to get them suggestively open.

All right, I'm gonna ask you to ask that question again because I thought something else I wanted to say on a rent.

Okay, no worries. Yeah, and I was trying to like, let me read it, see if you, if this makes sense to you.

But let me answer this question and then go with it.

Oh, I'm sorry, go ahead.

I constantly text where I live. Now I'm renting and I'm. Every time I am reminded of something in a house that I like, I text my landlord and tell him how much I love the house. You know, I got this gorgeous backyard. If I get up in the morning and I'm drinking a cup of coffee, I will shoot because I'm, I'm fun. I will shoot my landlord a message saying like, man, I love this backyard. I am so grateful and so happy to be here. I'm. And I, and I genuinely am. But I also know at some point in time I'm going to have to ask him to do stuff for me. I found out recently that my rent is way under market. Way under market. I got a pool in my backyard. And with health clubs being closed, the market prices on pools in a backyard are through the roof because people can't get their pools otherwise. My landlord is not making any moves whatsoever. I just came up on. I've been here a year, no increase. But I'm constantly demonstrating my legitimate appreciation for where I live because I legitimately appreciate it and I like making them feel good about me as a tenant. And I know I want every break that I could get. I don't want them punishing me or fed up with me.

Good point, good point. Goes a long way to just be nice to people. You know, making people feel good. You know, people like doing business with people they like.

Yeah.

So, okay, so this question is, when looking for small wins with humans, how are you listening? By watching people to see where they are at and have an observational, proper response with mirroring or anything to get them suggestively open.

All right. It's easy to know where they're at. I mean, that ain't hard. Everybody knows that your gut instinct tells you where they're at. The issue is what you, what do you do with it. And in most cases, you know, you just, just feed back what you're seeing. You know, we call this a cold read. Or if they look unhappy with what you just said, say you look unhappy with what I just said. You know, show them that you see them and help make them more self aware. You do. I mean, you do what you want to do is get them, get them to change. And your most likely gut instinct, when if they are visibly unhappy with what you just said, you're going to want to say, look, I don't want you to be unhappy with this. You know, the denial to the observation is a 2 millimeter shift that gives quantum changes in your results. Go from denial to observation, you'll be shocked at the impact that it has on people.

Gregorio, I hope I'm pronouncing that right. What's your version or tactics to closing or asking for the business? What tactics do you employ to assert your position? How do you deal with apathy from prospects who you must engage with? If you need me to break those out, I can do that.

Well, let's go with the closing one first, right? So we don't go for yes ever. This getting to yes, yes proposition, the yes momentum, that's bad. How did I close herjavec with no oriented questions? I closed him after 5 o' clock in the afternoon. It's hard to close anybody after 1 o' clock in the afternoon for legitimate reason. Decision fatigue. Yes is a trap. You're trying to trick me into something. What are the unintended consequences? What are the hooks that I don't see with yes. If we get to the point where we got to close or we have to issue some sort of call to action, it's always with a no oriented question. Do you disagree? Is this a ridiculous idea? Are you against? Those are the three and I think I used two of those in the email with herjavec. Are you against? Do you disagree? Is this a bad idea? Is this ridiculous? Is this offensive? If I gotta close on a dime, it's gonna be with a no oriented question. Always, always use no to close.

How do you transform? How can I be the best long term tenant to the request for the rate reduction?

Yeah. Well then first of all, is it ridiculous? You know, I'm probably going to go for an oriented question, but I'm going to. My next move is going to be to summarize. And we've also got something that we refer to as the accusations audit, which is just calling out every negative that you could think of. So if you're asking for a rent reduction from your landlord, what are they going to think of you? They're going to think of you as being cheap. Not what you want them to think, but what are they going to think as a result of your ask? We go proactive and we call it out in advance. Say you're probably going to think I'm cheap. You're probably going to think I don't care about you and your problems. You probably don't think I'm going to be around long enough for this to be worth your while. That's why we call it an accusations audit. Do an audit of all the possible negative responses and call them all. You're probably going to think. You're probably going to think. You're probably going to think. Call them out in advance. It will astonish you. Again, I like the word astonishing. It's going to blow your mind. The amount of ground you can cover quickly by deactivating the negatives that are either there or before they happen.

That's great.

So I'm going to try to ask ones that I don't think You've already addressed. So June, my daughter is having a challenge with her college with which messed up her class registration because of their mistakes. Yet the college is refusing to fix the problem and now refusing to talk. Apparently they think they can bully her and refuse to take any actions. This is a private school. How do you go about bringing them on the negotiation table?

Yeah, accusations audit. First of all, what's your means of communication? Sounds to me like they're not returning your phone calls. They might not even be returning your emails. But I, you know, and you got to be careful with your emails because everybody wants to write the Magna Carta in an email. You want to write an encyclopedia and nobody reads long emails. You don't read long emails, so why do you want to send them? But, you know, I would if I had to do that via email. I'd say, you know, I'd start out with. On the subject line of the email, you're not going to like what's in this email. You probably won't open it. My next line is going to be, this is going to sound harsh. My accusations audit is going to be, I'm sure I seem like every whining, every other whining, complaining student or parent of a student or helicopter parent or, you know, what's going through their mind, call it out in the email. Then how do we move forward in a way that we don't hate each other as a result? Leave it in their court.

That's great. I'll ask one more and then we'll wrap up here. Where did it go now? Oh, this is interesting. This is from Ava. Chris, how do you. How do you negotiate with self when you have competing interests? How do you negotiate with yourself in your own mind? How do you make decisions?

You know, a good sounding board is remarkably helpful to clear your own thoughts. And a sounding board could be writing it out. A sounding board could be. They say that, you know, supposedly people that talk to themselves are smarter. That's because you're hearing yourself out. It's amazing, your thoughts in your head, how confused and jumbled they could be. And as soon as you say them out loud to somebody, you're like, wow, the answer is obvious to me. So this happens to us all the time. We'll be in what we call an IDS Identify, discover and solve. I think identify, discuss and solve sessions in my company's meetings, IDS session. And somebody will lay out what they think the problem is. And merely laying it out verbally, they come to the answer themselves because the act of getting the thoughts out of their head. Whether or not they're just articulating them changes things. And that's why people find good sounding boards so effective. So find a way to just sound the ideas off somebody. Even if you got. If you don't have a person to sound that out and be clear that you're just sounding yourself out, you're not looking for advice. You will find that you can clear out your own thoughts really well if you can just get them out of your head. In some ways.

That'S fantastic. So, Chris, what didn't I ask you that I should have asked you?

I don't know. I mean, this is. I can't. I didn't have anything in mind before we started that we didn't get to. So this is a great session. I loved it.

No, thank you. Let me ask you this one, since it'll be kind of a good setup. Since you're now part of the faculty with Genius Network, what has, if anything, has been the most valuable to you personally and or professionally by being part of Genius Network?

Wow, that's a tough call because, you know, the domino effect from the relationships has been insane. I mean, we have gotten. Because you and I had a conversation about this recently when I just flat out told you, you guys have given me so much. When I sat down and I made a list of the people that I know that I'm doing business with that I value, and it brought massive value to my life because I know you and I looked at that list and I was like, holy cow, this is astonishing. You know, there's a lot of what sounds like lip service paid to the value of the connections through Genius Network, and it is not. But it just flows so well that you almost forget how much value has been there. Those are just the relationships, the ideas. The ideas we got from Evan Carmichael. Massively valuable. The ideas, you know, for the subtitle of the book, the Missing Manual. I mean, the marketing ideas. I got one of the guys you had on that did the perfect intro. We've been using that intro over and over and over, over since. I mean, there hasn't been a single session that hasn't been enormously valuable. I can go on for days on the value I've gotten from Genius Network. So it's a lot.

Thank you. And I'm so happy to have you part of the faculty. It just adds so much more, this value to an incredible group of incredible people. So thank you. Chris. Where do they get more of you? Where do they follow you? How do they anything else that you're. That that's that you'd like to talk about that you're. That you haven't that other than the movie and things that you're working on and where do people follow you? Where do they go?

Now, the gateway to everything that the Black Swan Group has to offer is really through our complimentary newsletter. You send a text message to the number 33777 and I'll throw it in the chat to help and get to the bottom of the chat, put my glasses on so I can see what I'm doing. Send chat to everyone. All right, that's the number that you send it to and this is the message you send. Black Swan method, not case sensitive spaces between the words. If you send it to that number, send it to the number three, 377. Black Swan method, three words. You get a text box response asking for your email address. The email is concise, which means it's not going to wear you out reading it. It's actionable and it's a gateway to everything. It's a gateway to the website, it's a gateway to training we're putting on. It's gateway to the free products. I mean, the newsletter is the best way to stay in touch and keep up with us.

Awesome. Well, what I'd like to do is ask everyone that's got a copy of Chris's book, never split the Difference, to put yourself on gallery mode, grab the book, hold it up, take your video off if you could, and let's do if you can do a video or screenshot. And then I'd love for you guys to do a shout out social media that you listen to the I Love Marketing episode with Chris Voss, plug his book, that would be absolutely wonderful and then post it. And so here we go. So, Chris, on behalf of myself, Dean Jackson, everyone at Genius Network, and I Love Marketing, thank you for being an amazing guest on the I Love Marketing Group and those of you that want to watch this episode, it's on YouTube and it'll also be on I Love Marketing. So make sure you subscribe wherever you listen to podcasts. Chris Voss, author of Never Split the Difference, which is amazing. So thank you, Chris.

Thanks, Joe. An absolute pleasure as always.

There's going to continue to be content. We're going to have some great guests and it'll probably be better without me. And my sabbatical starts on January 1st and people are asking, what do you have planned? I'm going to spend the first week of the year meditating for six hours a day for seven days straight in order to get myself in the right mindset in order to do something like this that I've never done before. I've got an incredible team. Many of them are here today from Eunice and Gina and Tarna and Denise and Giselle and, I don't know, Chelsea and Rakim and Tim, you know, mentioned it was a few days ago. It was 20 years me and Tim have been working together. We've got, I've had to innovate so many things to bring to people. So make sure that you're on our email list. We're going to have some meetings that will come up that you'll be invited onto and it's going to be good. And then joesabbacal.com is going to explain where to go and what to do and how I'm setting it up. I'll probably go off social media entirely and I will get a new phone number and I'm going to basically be off the grid for a long period of time. I'm fully intending on taking a year off and immersing myself in music and art and recovery work and health and things like that. So it's been a crazy ass year. Take really good care of yourselves and read Chris's book. If you haven't watch his masterclass. We're so happy to do this and we do this because we genuinely love helping entrepreneurs and sharing great people and great ideas to people. So it becomes the first domino for you. So that's what we've always been committed to doing and yeah, so that's why we do this.

So awesome.

Appreciate everyone. All right, you guys have a wonderful rest of the day or night, whatever part of the world you're in, and we will talk to you next time. Have a great, great day.

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