How To Stay Peaceful, Positive And Productive In The Face Of Negative Feelings - I Love Marketing Episode #250

I'm dean jackson, he's joe polish, and this is the I love marketing podcast. Hey everybody, it's Dean Jackson and Joe Polish.

And where are we, Dean?

What's going on here?

Well, let's see. We have a very special guest today. You know, one of these things, you see all of these things that make their way around the Internet and you know, we don't often get to talk to somebody who's responsible for one of them. And it was really one of my, one of my favorite ones. I love to see this one. So, so I'm excited to talk to our guest today.

Yeah, his name is Kevin Kaiser and like the role. Okay, that's because I even asked Kevin that I said, how do you make sure you pronounce your name right? And Kevin, you're in Nashville right now, right?

I am. I'm in Nashville. That's right.

Awesome.

Thanks for having me, guys. I really appreciate it. Yeah.

Great to have you here. And so here I'm going to give the background real short bio that I'll read from Kevin baskey. For nearly 20 years, Kevin Kaiser has helped Fortune 100 executives, New York Times best selling authors, Grammy winning musicians and successful entrepreneurs unlearn. And I love that word unlearn. What keeps them from living intentional lives of balance, purpose and clarity? So that is a short, concise, awesome bio. And I do like the word unlearn because at this stage in my life, I do my best with all the books I, you know, read and all the people I interact with and all of the pursuit of business strategies and personal development and you know, my own dysfunctional behavior, all the different things that I could do to learn stuff. One of the things I really have been focusing on is unlearning. And many people in Genius Network have heard me, you know, tell the stories about all of this that, you know, like 12 step groups is an example for addicts. You know, one of the very big things is unlearning stuff. Not it's discarding versus you know, just learning more stuff. And before this turns into a total tangent, I want to give some background about how I too late because it is kind of a tangent. I just realized in the middle of it, this is a tangent. So too late. That was the change of the context here. No. So here's the deal. I actually read a fantastic article that Kevin had written that was on lifehack.org and it was titled 20 Things Only Highly Creative People would understand. And we'll put post this on ilovemarketing.com along with the show notes and links so you can track down Kevin and all that. So we'll give you all that towards the end, or you can go on our site and get that. But I read this article and I really resonated with it, and it was short and it was just, you know, it was just really, really great writing and simple, but really great writing. And I shared it with a whole bunch of people. And then I sent him. I tracked him down and I sent him an email that said, kevin, I'm going to literally, this is the origins of how this whole thing played out. And then you'll quit here and listen to me babble and we'll ask Kevin some questions. So I wrote, kevin, I love this article you wrote. Then I put a link to it. I just shared it on Facebook with a whole bunch of successful entrepreneurs. And I'm going to print it out and physically mail it to all my 230 members. And then I put a link for my 25k group. Here's a short bio of me. I'd love to do an interview with you at some point in 2016, if you're up for it. I have two podcasts, and then I listed ilovemarketing.com and 10xtalk.com and that was in November 24, 2015. Now here we are towards the end of March 2016. And so Kevin wrote back, hi, Joe, thank you so much for the kind words. The article was actually a marketing experiment to see if I could engineer a shareable post. And yes, I'd love to talk with you. A very nice email. He wrote back saying, yes, he'd like to do it. And he wished me a very happy Thanksgiving. So we had correspondence back and forth with my assistant, you know, Eunice and Kevin, and here we are today, actually finally doing it. And before this episode, I went and pulled up the article, and it has currently been shared 348,000 times. So clearly, you know, he wrote words that resonated with other people and caused them to want to share it. But this is, I'm sure, just a very, very tiny tip of the iceberg of what Kevin does, what he thinks about, what he writes about and all that. So, that being said, Kevin, I might share some of the article. Maybe I'll read some of the pieces. And we're going to recommend people just go and read it so that they get a context of this. But your words inspired me to actually want to talk with you, to dig deeper into that brain of yours and ask you some questions about how you Think about stuff. So it's useful to all of our I love marketing listeners. So now I'm done. So let me ask you, who are you and what do you do?

Well, my name is Kevin Kaiser and I'm not really sure what I do. Honestly. It's changed over time. I'm one of these guys who has just kind of found his way through life and very curious. I think if you have to put me in a box, I am a. You could call me a coach of sorts really. I help entrepreneurs find their voice and like you said, I help people unlearn the stuff that's keeping them stuck. And I've had lots of practice over the years. I turned 41 this summer and I've been fortunate enough to have two really great careers so far for the past two years. I guess I'm on my third. For the past two years I've been working independently with entrepreneurs and really successful folks and just helping them what I would consider figure out how to start using a new operating system and a new way of thinking and a new way of being in their own life. And before that, for eight years I was a manager at an entertainment agency and like you said, got to work with musicians and authors and people who really made a living from their work, from their art. They lived at that intersection of art and commerce and had to figure out how to navigate all of that. And so in some ways I was part psychologist, part counselor, part marketing guy. I spent millions of dollars of other people's money trying to figure out how to sell books and advise publishers. And then before that I was investment manager. I was a managing director at a private wealth management company where we worked with ultra affluent families, families that were worth north of $50 million. Typically first generation wealth builders, entrepreneurs. And my specialty was really working with them in terms of intergenerational wealth transfer. So passing along values and work ethic from one generation to the next. Because statistically if you have a first generation wealth builder, that wealth that is created is usually gone by the third generation. And so it was my job to come in and kind of shepherd, kind of shepherd these families. So that's really what I do. When people ask me, you know, parties, what do you do? I'm not really sure how to answer it.

I hope people, you know what, sometimes I say about what? That's always a good conversation.

Yeah, exactly.

What do you do about what?

Well, you could do the. You could be like Tim Ferriss and be a total smart ass and try to not go to the obvious career Thing that people, you know, seeking. But I totally get what you're saying. I mean, you know, we have the answers that we give, but then it's like, really, what do we do? I mean, I don't know how in the hell I would. What people think I do and what I actually do. They're completely different things. And how I. How I go about getting those results or non results are totally different things also, which, you know, hence even your article that first, you know, how I found out about you, even the way you write it and speak of creativity and creative people almost speaks to the uniqueness of how some people behave compared to others and how they make things up and make them real and all that sort of stuff. As an aside, I have a friend named Myra. We actually did an I love marketing episode as a bonus episode with her. Her whole entire business is helping people that have inherited their wealth on what to do with it so they don't, for one, lose it, which many do. And keeping the family dynamics together from not. I mean, so it's a very. It's a very. I'm sure you have many unique experiences that came from that. I mean, what were some in your past life, if you want to call it that, what were some of the biggest things that you discovered or learned looking back that have either surprised you or changed the kind of trajectory of what you do today with helping others? I mean, how did that. What were some of the things that you discovered and that you learned?

Yeah, sure, that's a great question. I think I was fortunate enough at an early age to work with very successful people that, I mean, for the most part, you look at them and you'd say, okay, they caught the carrot, right? So everybody's chasing this carrot, you know, whatever it is. So wealth, possessions, esteem, popularity. So here I was working with these folks and discovered, okay, well, most of them really aren't that happy. But yet, you know, you have everything that you need right now, all of us do, in order to be happy. Like you have everything you need right now to be happy, regardless of your station in life. And if you doubt that, I mean, just think about, you know, if you've ever read Viktor Frankl's books about, you know, the Holocaust and how.

Yeah, man, search for meanings.

Yeah, yeah. I mean, people in concentration camps having the ability to maintain, you know, a sense of joy and purpose in their life regardless of the external circumstances. And so, you know, so I learned that at an early, early stage of my career, you know, that all of these things that we're all trying to get right. And deep down we know that if we get them, they still won't make us happy. And yet we pursue them. And I mean, pell melt. We just run for them, knowing that if I get them, I'm still not going to be happy. It reminds me of what Einstein said about if you keep doing the same things over and over and expect a different result, that's the definition of insanity. So we're all kind of insane in our pursuit of all of these things that we know will ultimately make us happy. And so that was maybe the first thing that I really internalized and learned. I started applying that just in my life, but personal life, but my professional life. And I became the guy who I think would just ask questions. And I really built my career off of asking questions of those that I'm working with because most of them are in some stage of discontent. And entrepreneurs are actually kind of the quintessential case studies because we all kind of live on this grid of there's contentment in vision, and you fall somewhere like in one of four quadrants. And the folks over at Mind Valley. I forget the gentleman's name.

Yeah, we actually have our second interview set up with him because he's. He's actually in my Genius Network group. I don't know if he knew that.

But yeah, we know very well when he has this teaching about these four mindsets, you know, and, you know, contentment and vision. And you can have zero contentment in your life and zero vision, right. And you're just kind of screwed. You know, you're depressed or where most entrepreneurs find themselves is they have a ton of vision, but they have no contentment in their life. So they're not present in their own life. And that's equally as bad because you'll never have enough in your life. Right? Or you can have a ton of contentment, but no vision. And that's just as bad because, you know, you might as well just sit around on the couch and smoke pot all day, you know, just, you know, bliss out and not do anything with your life. So what you're really trying to get to is that place where you're content and you also have a vision for your life. You're pursuing things, but your happiness and your contentment is not tied to the outcome of it. And that's, you know, that's kind of that. That sweet spot of creative flow where you're living out of what you. What comes most naturally to you, regardless of what other people tell you. You should be right? So every. We all know what it's like when we're living out of that place. You know, that's. That's true to us. Call it whatever you want, you know, living out of your truth, sort of whatever you want to call it. But once you're doing that, you don't. You don't try to be anybody else, because you know that what makes you unique is that's your purpose. That's what we're all trying to get to. We just. We just listen to other people so often tell us what they think we should be, and we think that. Well, yeah, that's true, but it's not, you know, so you want to be in that place where you're. You have the ability to be content to have vision for your life, but not tie your happiness to whether or not your article shared 300,000 times or three times. You know.

I wanted to point out, too, when they were talking about the article that we both saw, Joe and.

I, the.

20 things only highly creative people would understand.

You look at.

I don't want it to go unnoticed, that 348,000 shares that you think about, how many times that was actually read, that's how many times somebody actually read it and pushed the share button. So you got to multiply, multiply that. And it really kind of resonated with people. So you hit on that creativity there.

Yeah, well. Yeah, well, I think ultimately everybody. Everybody wants to believe that they are creative. And you are. I mean, if. If you are breathing, if you are a human being, you're creative. And I think. I think the things that I wrote in there really just gave people permission to say, oh, my gosh. Yeah, that's me. So I'm. So it just gave them permission to be what they already are. And I think that's really what resonated with people, because everyone. For permission.

Yeah, it's a super headline. I mean, if you just unpack it, there's so many brilliant things happening in it, and you know that. Have you written a lot of articles like that? Like, do you take.

A particular approach.

To sort of engineering that?

Well, not for myself, I haven't. That was actually one of the few. One of the few articles that I've written that that was like that. I know this isn't in my bio, but I. I've actually done a lot more fiction writing and. Oh, wow. Ghostwritten for New York. Yeah, yeah. Mostly novels. So most of the writing that I've done has been making stuff up. So writing for New York Times best selling novelist and doing things under pen names. But most of the nonfiction or most of the business writing that I've done has been for other people.

Now, what I was going to say, I mean, just because it almost reminds me of like my relationship with Dean, because when we go out to like parties, rarely we do, but if we're ever like dinner parties sort of things, he just makes shit up when we talk to people constantly. And I'm just always having to cover what he truths and things that he has said to others. I'm totally kidding, of course. Well, no, let's talk about this though, because what Dean said is, I think, important and I do want to unpack it because the vast majority of people that listen to I love marketing are entrepreneurs. They live in the results economy. So marketing is really critical in one of the ways that I describe marketing. Marketing, as I say, selling is influence and marketing is storytelling. And if you tell a better story, you're going to enroll people. We don't look at marketing as how to trick people or how to manipulate people. We're very much about educating people on how to make a buying decision using very compelling emotional words, making irresistible offers, all that sort of stuff. You had a great headline, very compelling in what you wrote. People resonated with it. But your response to me when I first asked you if you'd be up for doing an interview was the article was actually a marketing experiment to see if I could engineer a shareable post. And you accomplished that. So I'd like to go through. And I've got a whole slew of questions I'd like to ask you about defining creativity and processes and all that sort of stuff, and we'll get to what we can get to. I would love to just get inside your head though and like, what does marketing like, you know, what's a marketing experiment mean to you and how did you go about writing in a way to where you either knew or you assumed people would, you know, share what.

It is that you wrote?

Because that would be really valuable to people that are listening to this saying, how the hell do I do that? I mean, a lot of people, this is a dream come true to have them be able to do that. And you clearly knew how to do it.

Well, okay, so there's this guy named Noah Kagan. You guys know? No, no or nobody is appsumo guy.

Yeah, Noah is a. He's a friend of mine. I had lunch with him here. He came to my office about a month ago.

Oh, cool, Cool. Okay. So Noah Noah comes to, he came to Nashville to, to do this, this small get together kind of thing. And he was talking about different kind of, kind of marketing ideas. And he mentioned Buzzsumo. I'll tell you exactly how I did this. So for those of you who don't know what BuzzSumo is, it's buzzsumo.com. it's a website where you can go, you can type in any website and you can see what the most shared posts are on that website. And so I had this idea, okay, well, let's see if we can engineer article that can get shared more than 100,000 times. And so the first thing you need to do is find, you know, find a place that has a lot of reach. And it's just kind of a content. Either a content machine, you know, and then it's, you know, it's putting out a lot of stuff or one that has a very deep rabid fan base. And so I started with Life Hack and a couple others that were kind of like it and saw that the most shared article in lifehack is one that has an Adam Levine picture. And it's all about what I think. I think the title of it is, you know, 20 things you should remember if you love somebody with ADD. And so, and it's been shared over 2 million times. So, you know, so having a picture of Adam Levine probably helps, but you have a topic. Yeah, you should go check this out. It's, you know, he's got the tats and everything.

Yeah, I've seen that one too.

Yeah. I mean, it's very popular, but why is it popular? Why do people share stuff, period? People share things because of what it says about them to other people. The same reason why I own a MacBook Air, you know, not a PC. Like, you remember the old commercials? You know, Mac and PC, the two guys.

Yeah.

What it says about us is, you know, we share things that say things about us to make a statement about us that we want other people to use. You know, so if I share an article about add, I'm sharing it because, well, I want people to understand why I am the way I am. And a lot of people think they have add. So I thought, okay, I'm going to do exactly that. I'm not going to change anything. I'm just going to do that exact model. And everybody believes or wants to be creative, and everybody is creative, but you can't just show up to a friend's house and say, you know what, I'm really creative. But what you can do is you can share an article. And so that's what I did. I mean, I just used that ADD article as a model and sat down and brainstormed out all of the things that I could think of just from years of working with artists and writers and musicians and just put those down and honestly did not expect it to do anything, but it did. Cool.

You know what? When I was typing in the article here to look amazing, how many people, if you type in 20 things to remember, it'll just start, you know, it'll start filling in the blanks. Someone with depression, ocd, anxiety. So.

Well, that's kind of a really popular. You know, buzzfeed uses that formula a lot. Right. And they're very, very niche in the way like, this is a really great exercise in headline writing because I guarantee you most of the people that share that did not read the whole article. They saw the article, they skimmed and looked at some of the points and shared it. And that's kind of the formula that buzzfeed uses a lot too. And they do it in an ultra specific way. Like 20 things you'll definitely know if you were a 90s kid or 10 things only. Only kids with Asian mothers know. You know, so it's like you're immediately. They're looking at. It's that horoscope effect in a way where people are looking for themselves and their interests and they see, oh yeah, I'm a creative person. Let's see, what about me?

You know? Well, and two, if you take a look at the article, I prioritized. I prioritized what the points were based on. Based on knowing that people would, most people would not make it all the way through the article. Right. The thing that I thought would resonate most at the top, you know, so number two is they, they challenge the status quo and they, they embrace their genius even if others don't, you know, So I tried to pick, I talked with my wife through all of these. She helped me with prioritizing and figuring out, okay, now where. Which one should go at the top. Because they're probably only going to get down to maybe number five or number six.

What's this number five? Number five. They click share on other creative articles to let people know.

There you go.

Certainly I did it. Well, let's talk about the picture. You had a picture of.

A girl's.

Back with planets and sun on. I mean, so how did you pick the imagery?

Well, I didn't. They changed the image after about a week. There was another image. It was a was actually a stock photo of a woman wearing a Groucho Marx. You know, like the glasses and nose with the mustache. So I mean, they apparently ab test images and headlines because they changed the headline too.

Wow.

Because there was another headline, there were two headlines and this is the one that won out. But I don't know how they chose that image.

Interesting.

No idea.

You know what I'd like to do? Just for people listening that haven't read the article? I'm just going to read some of it just to give some context and it's pretty relatively short, but let me just do this and then we'll continue our discussion. So the article 20 things only highly Creative People would Understand. There's no argument anymore. Neuroscience confirms that highly creative people think and act differently than the average person. Their brains are literally hardwired in a unique way. But that gift can often strain relationships. I've seen it firsthand while working with New York Times best selling authors and Grammy winning musicians. If you love a highly creative person, you probably experience moments when it seems like they live in a completely different world than you. Truth is, they do. But trying to understand them isn't nearly as effective as trying to Trying to change them isn't nearly as effective as trying to understand them. It all begins by seeing the world through their lenses and remembering these 20 things. The first one. They have a mind that never slows down. The creative mind is non stop machine, fueled by intense curiosity. There's no pause button and no way to power it down. This can be exhausting at times, but it is also the source of some crazy fun activities and conversations. Number two. They challenge the status quo. Two questions drive every creative person more than anyone else. What if and why not? They question what everyone else takes at face value while uncomfortable for those around them. It's this ability that enables creatives to redefine what's possible. And I'll read one more. 3. They embrace their genius even if others don't. Creative individuals would rather be authentic than popular. Staying true to who they are without compromise is how they define success. Even if it means being misunderstood or marginalized. And then. Well, I could keep going on because I like the next one more.

You really look into reading children's books? Audiobooks, Joe?

You think I should? Yeah. Well, so here's the thing. So I read this and of course I resonated with it. And I mean I sent this freaking article to Richard Branson, I sent it to Tony Robbins, I sent it to Damon John, I sent it to Tim Ferriss. I mean, I just texted it to a whole bunch of people, sent it to my 25k members, all that sort of stuff. And the response is like, I just got back. Great. Like, totally agree, totally agree. Now, of course, I always look for comments when people are like, oh, this article is bullshit. I don't agree with this part at all. That sort of stuff. So I looked at.

But.

I very much resonated with the content of it. So there's two things that interested me about this. One is your ability to get other people to read it and market it, and the shareability aspect. So that's one thing. And then second, simply the content. Because there are a lot of things that can be shared that I don't per se resonate with or agree with. But you seem to have some really great insight on the creative mind. So my initial thing was, well, let's talk to this guy about marketing and how he does what it is he does. But also, let's talk to this individual about creativity and understanding these people and how to, when you're one of them, how do you go throughout the world? And if you're not, how do you interact and understand people like that? Which led to us having this podcast episode today. So I'd like to get into some of the content and how you think about creativity. So like I mentioned earlier, I wanted to ask you, how do you define creativity, since you wrote an article about this? And what, what makes someone creative? And how can someone listening to this become more creative or at least open up the creativity they already have that they for some reason don't feel they can tap into or don't acknowledge it or whatever. So you could talk about that.

Sure. Well, first of all, so creativity in my mind is simply connecting dots. That's really all it is. I mean, creativity is the ability to look at things and then see them. Because looking and seeing are two different things. And I mean, think about kids, okay? So if you're breathing, if you're a human being, you are creative. So it's kids. Like, imagine saying to a kid, hey, kid, be more creative. Like, what are the three points? Like, how do you be more creative? And they're going to say, I don't know, want to go outside and play? So it's really as simple as that. Creativity is playing. It's like having a sense of wonder, curiosity, and having a willingness to believe that Superman can fly. Right? So that the rules don't apply to you. Like, okay, well, what if. Well, what if you could fly? What if you could Put a computer into, you know, a device the size of a wallet, you know, that has more computing power than the Apollo, you know, all of the Apollo rockets. Right. So, like, what if you could do that stuff? So that's really all creativity is. It's just looking at the world, seeing connections and then playing. I mean. I mean, isn't that really what we're all kind of after? I mean, we look at these guys. Like you mentioned Richard Branson. The thing I appreciate most about Richard Branson is he's just got this sense of. His life is all a game. It's all just. You can tell he's just having a really great time, and that's irresistible to people. You know, just connect the dots and have fun. And that's really the best advice I would ever have for anybody who thinks they're not creative and wants to be more creative. It's just, hey, don't worry about growing up. Just play more. I mean, ask tons of questions. Do absurd things. Go out for a walk. Go places you would normally go if you're not a fiction person, read a novel or pick up a comic book or, you know, I mean, it can come from lots of different things. The primary thing, though, is you have to get out of the rut that you're in, you know, so again, I'll quote Einstein, you know, he says that, you know, the. You can't solve a problem with the same level of consciousness that created it. So you have to think differently, you have to act differently, you have to be differently if you want to. And let's say you want to be more creative or if you want to experience more. More progress in that part of your life. That's all you need to do. Just kind of change the channel. And the changing the channel makes all the difference in the world, you know, I mean, think about a radio dial. You know, just as a little nudge of the dial is the difference between static and a symphony, you know, Beethoven's fifth. It's just that little tweak, you know, that's really. Yeah, that's.

That's a good analogy.

Yeah.

I would like to do a little doll change on you, Dean.

Just get some vent, Stack.

Kevin, you're not used to this, but I'm really the sweet, compassionate one. But we have this whole Batman Robin Persona that we got on our podcast that's been going on for many years now. And so I tend to play this role of being sarcastic and kind of dizzy Dean, just to see if we can get him charged up and get him to, you know, fight back a little bit, but it always, for whatever reason, it works. Yeah, well, he is. You seem that, you seem very Zen, too. I mean, do you meditate? What are some of your. What are some of your rituals that you do? I mean, because you truly. I mean, you sound like a, you know, peaceful guy. I mean, you could be like, completely flying off the handle and stuff. I have no idea. But I mean, how, how, how is, how's your daily ritual serve you? Is there things that you do when you write and how you, you know, I mean, love to hear anything that you think you have, that you do or have done that has just been a game changer for you?

Yeah, well, I would say that, yeah. I mean, meditation and incorporating some contemplative practices into my life have made a massive difference. So I'm a Midwestern guy, so I'm from Southern Indiana, so I'm just. I'm just normally. And I'm a middle child, so I'm just naturally kind of even, you know, so I don't get very. I don't swing very far one way or the other. So there's that. But, yeah, meditation has been a really important part of my, my practice over the past several years, for sure. And I think if there's any one thing that could radically change somebody's paradigm, it's that it's, it's meditation. And it's not a. It's not a weird, like, it doesn't have to be a super spiritual thing. Meditation is actually just paying attention. That's all it is. Because if you think about. Yeah, if you just think about, like, I am here right now, but I could be spending my time thinking about what I have to do an hour from now, or worrying about or regretting what happened to me an hour ago. And both of those things are figments of my imagination that don't exist. They will never exist. Because life only happens right now, right? I am here right now talking with you, and this is actually life. All of the other stuff that we worry about or we regret, those things don't exist. And if you just took 60 seconds every day just to think about that and to actually be where you are, weird things start happening. You start seeing the world. You know, I said difference between looking at it and seeing it, you start to see it. And then more importantly, you start to see other people. You don't, you know, you don't see the conceptualized version of them and the way you think they should be or the way the situation should be. You see it, oh, no, this is the situation as it is. This is it right here. And so you just. It just recontextualizes your life over time. And it doesn't happen overnight, but it's just little by little. Do you find creative people have a.

Do you find creative people have a hard time with that? In that creativity itself is not a present sort of focus, vision and thinking? I have to consciously make an effort to be present and understand that the only time we can actually do anything is right now. Because so much of being creative is seeing things that are not yet and envisioning what could be in the future. And you realize that it's actually easier. We can be shape shifters when you're being creative, when you're creating something that isn't in the world yet. But the only way to write an article for whatever you're doing. I'll use the article as a metaphor. The 20 things only highly creative people would Understand. You could, you know, when you're thinking about that, when you're coming up with the idea for that, you're basically in, you know, thinking about something in the future, but the only way to actually make it real is to be in the present and to sit down and write it. And do you find that people have a hard time.

You know, coming to.

Terms with that, or is that. Is that one of the things that they have to unlearn?

Well, I think it comes back to the learning how to play more, how to just be kids, you know, and yeah, I think it was Picasso said that, you know, we're born and we're kids, and then we have our child, our childness, our childlikeness beaten out of us. And then as we grow up, what we're really trying to get back to is we're trying to grow young. We're trying to get back to what it's like to be a kid. Right? So you can approach everything in your life that way, even the things. Because you're exactly right. You have to have vision for things that are not yet right, don't exist yet. But you do that from a sense of play, at least. This is how I do it. This is how I. This is just my perspective of how it can work. Because that's one kind of. That's one kind of energy, if you want to call it that. Another kind is looking at it from the standpoint of not play. But I have to do that. You know, I have to. You know, I'm doing it solely out of fear or competition or a sense of Scarcity. And that creates its own kind of thing too, you know. And so I think it's, I think it's both of those things. You do have vision and it's, that's, you have to have that otherwise nothing would ever change. But you also have to be, have to have the ability to embody it now and actually do the work now, you know, and take steps toward that. It's kind of a roundabout way of answering that, but that's my answer.

Do you know your, do you know your Myers Briggs type or have you done any of those types of studies or your Colby or anything?

Yeah, I don't remember what it is though. You know, you're the second person who's asked me that in the past two weeks.

Maybe, maybe the universe is telling you something. Kevin.

Well, you know, do you believe in unicorns?

Kevin don't believe in unicorns. No, no, no, no.

It is funny because Dean's always asking me my Mars Briggs things too, but that's a whole nother discussion. We won't even go there.

What's with me like estj?

What is my Dean? I can't remember.

So you're.

Yeah.

Which is, you know, great one. But perceivers, I am, I'm an intp. Evan Pagan's an intp, Frank Kern's an intp. I don't know what it is about like the INTP as a sort of creative personality, but the thing that I find, and as this is, we talk about it on the podcast a lot, but I definitely combined with the Colby, I find the Myers Briggs one of the most useful ones for understanding yourself and other people. And some people are completely wired to live in the present and some people are completely wired to live in the future or you know, bigger picture type of things. You know, like I as a, I'm an intp. Like I said, a perceiver.

Likes to.

Have open ended things and a judger the P and the J at the end of the thing, like to have order and completion, like to have things that are more settled rather than open ended. And so understanding that about yourself, I think it's easier for a perceiver to flex what they call flex your J than it is for a J to flex their P, you know, to become more at play sort of, sort of a thing.

I just wondered, you know what, you know, Dean, you're just, you're just, you're just losing a whole bunch of people right now. I just want you to be aware.

I'm not the people who know know. And so I tell Everybody go online and do your Myers Briggs. You could do it for free in about, you know, 15 minutes and it'll really give you a good set of goggles to, to look into why you do what you do and why other people do what they do.

Yeah, okay. I think they're interesting and I think they, they do show, they show tendencies, strong tendencies that people have. I think that, I think, I think they presume those, that people don't change and can't change over time. You know, that you're kind of locked into one thing and I'm not sure I buy into that anymore. I used to, I don't think you're. Radical change.

Yeah. Let me, let me, let me ask you about like, because I want, I want to. Actually there's some, there's some things that I think you'd be able to provide that would be really helpful for people listening, going back to creating something that's shareable. Like if you had to build an audience or a following from scratch, how would you go about doing it? Knowing the ways to engage people with ideas and with writing?

Yeah, sure. Well, I'm going to give you kind of a soft answer and then give you some more specifics. I think, I think one of the best examples I've ever seen somebody who's done this is Maria popova who runs brainpickings.org and so when she started it, she was working a full time job and she was finding these things that were interesting to her and she, she emailed those things to seven of her friends and then she would do it every week and slowly those seven people would share that with their friends. And then it got big enough that, you know, just sending it via a company mail or Gmail wasn't going to work. And so it just kind of grew and grew and grew and she has, I don't even know how many millions of people read it every week now. But I mean it's a massive, it's a massive website and it's one of my favorite. It's one of the few websites I go and read and it's one of the few E newsletters that I read. But on the surface of it, brandypickings.org isn't a website that should work. I mean, she goes and she finds obscure books that are not on the Internet. Like she has to go to the New York Public Library to find these books that are out of print. They're, you know, obscure. Like they're things that just should not be popular. And she finds them and she curates them. You know, it's wisdom from the ages. And she takes it and, you know, and connects. She connects the dots is what she does. It's a very literary kind of creativity, so has a lot of richness, a lot of depth to it. But she. She did it really for herself and for her friends first. And I think that that's the magic. I think that's the key. Everybody is looking for the shortcut. Everybody's looking for the 20 things, the 10 things. You know, they want to be carried to the top of the mountain. They don't want to climb the mountain, they just want to be carried there. Better yet, airlifting to the top, that. That doesn't work. You may be able to. One in a million may be able to do that, but it doesn't last. I mean, the point of the whole journey is climbing the mountain. Before we moved to Nashville, we lived in our family lives in Colorado. So I did a lot of mountaineering and a lot of climbing. And that's kind of the thing about climbing. It's not about getting to the top, really. It's about the trip up and the trip down. And so if I were to give advice to somebody who wants to build an audience is, well, first, don't try to be somebody else. Do something that you are intensely curious about, and you would do it anyway. And I know this sounds very idealistic, you know, when you're trying to make money from your ideas. But you know what resonates? The energy and the passion that you put into your work always comes through. It always comes through. If. If you're doing something simply for a buck, that comes through. People are smart enough. I get that the reason why they connect with Maria Popova, or the reason why they connect with guys like Tim Ferriss is Tim Ferriss is just being Tim Ferriss. He's not trying to be anything else, at least as I perceive him. And that's why it works, you know, and so just figure out what it is that you want to do and just go do it. And don't ask for permission. Just go do it. But, you know, like we talked about earlier, have vision and be content, but don't make your happiness dependent on whether or not you, you know, you can make a million dollars from your online business this year. Because I know guys and I've worked with guys and have advised them who have done just that in the past year. And they're not any happier than you or me, but. But I know people who make less that are doing things that they really love and they, in their minds, are way more successful. I think that's so funny.

It sounds. We just did. We just had Tom Billiott, the guy who started Quest Nutrition Bars, on as a guest. It'll be up just before we put up this episode. And, you know, you just exactly summarized what he. What he told us. They had built a very successful business in another sort of another field and. But were miserable and they decided to start something. What would we do if it wasn't. If we were not getting paid for it? And they built this huge, successful company on the back of doing what they. What really resonates with them, what they're really passionate about, what their. Their purpose is. And so, you know, you just. There's again, another, you know, example just what you're. Just what you're saying. You're kind of reinforcing that.

Yeah, yeah. Well, listen to this.

No good.

I'll just. Yeah, I was just going to say the. The contentment and the happiness part of it is very important. And let me say this, that most people listening to this do not really want to be happy. We actually don't want to be happy. We want to be happy as long as things work out the way we want them to, or we will be happy as long as we can have the Tesla car that our neighbor just bought. So it's always conditional. It's always conditional. But the truth is, the people that I've run across who are the happiest, whether they are multimillionaire entrepreneurs or not, is they somehow have grasped onto this idea that life is play. And when they do what comes most naturally to them, when they're most happy, things just kind of come together for them. And at some point they realize, right now I have every single thing I need to be happy. Like right now. So what am I going to do with that? And what do I want to do? If I can do anything, what would I do? And we live in the greatest, you know, greatest time in all of human history to experiment and try things and you can make stuff happen if you really want to.

No, totally. I'm making a note here as I'm thinking. Well, since you are a great writer and having thoughts and ideas, but the ability to put them down and share them with others, which creates obviously, the impact in so much of what we do as, as marketers, is being able to can and clone ourselves in print, in video and audio, and replicate ourselves and using powerful, compelling words. What are some of your best tips, techniques, ideas for becoming a Better writer or a great writer.

Practice a lot. Write a lot of crappy words, crappy sentences, and just do a lot, you know, just write as much as you possibly can. Actually just finished launching an online course on fiction writing with a good friend of mine, and we've spoken it together at writers conferences. And I mean, the number one question is, well, how do you. How do you become a great writer? How do you become a good writer? And it's the same. I mean, the answer is the same for, you know, a question like, how do you become a great basketball player? Well, you go shoot a million free throws, you know, or you go, you know, run, run every day if you want to be a great marathoner. It's just practice. There's no secret sauce other than you've got to put in the work. You've got to, you know, build the calluses. You've got to. You just have to do the work. There's no way around it. There's no shortcut.

Yeah.

You know the best advice I've got?

No, it's great. It's like you referenced him in the article, but Steven Pressfield, who's a friend of mine, I've known Steven since I first interviewed him in 2003 on the war of Art, which is an amazing book. And one of the things he's. Yeah, he says in the very beginning of it is, you know, for the writer, it's not the writing that's art. It's a sitting down to write. And almost every writer that is a great writer that I know has said, yeah, he just got to write. I mean, you just do it all the time. And the thing that you said, which is really important, I mean, I don't know where I first heard it, but I've always loved the line, in order to have great thoughts, you got to think of a lot of silly thoughts. And your thing is, even if you're writing crappy words, it's anything worth doing is worth doing poorly in the beginning. Now, the distinction I would make is that some people, they hate writing. And if you hate writing, you should not be writing. You should find alternative ways. Like, for instance, I would rather talk than write and then have my words transcribed. And I hire copywriters and I do stuff. But you know, the thing is, anything though, even public speech, I mean, I was so definitely afraid of speaking the first time I did. It terrified me and I didn't want to do it. And I would sweat and I would get nervous and I couldn't think straight and I would Literally physically get sick. When I would do full day seminars, the first probably 10 seminars that I did, if I did not get physically kind of nauseous or sick, I would be to able exhausted at the end of it. But I also knew that there was something there and that if I kept doing it, I would actually develop a skill that would give me advantages that were worth the pain. Because, you know, there is that whole concept of no pain, no gain, but then there's no pain, no pain. Some things are just painful and you shouldn't even do them because they're painful. But there are certain things that the effort that you have spend will end up producing a skill. And with that skill you can actually do something with it. Remember that book, Dean, that I was talking about for a while? So good. They Can't Ignore youe by Cal Newport, about how skill trumps passion. And that passion is very much about what can the world bring to me versus you know, what can I bring to the world? When you focus on skills. And so the skill of being a great writer, being a great marketer, being a great anything is literally doing the work, you know, just what you said, Kevin. It's just that.

Can I ask you.

I believe you've dealt with depression, correct?

Yeah, I have, yeah. Yeah. Matter of fact, yeah. Runs. I don't know if it's genetic or if it was just whatever, but yeah, yeah. Pretty. Pretty deep dark stuff. Yeah.

Well, me too. I mean, I'm. Many people know because I talk about it quite a bit. And I'm in the process of building a platform and doing a documentary on addiction to help people with addicts. And I'm going to help be the catalyst for Artists for Addicts, which will be a platform where we offer creative art to help people with addictions and that will involve real art. And I'm doing that with a team of people and I came up with the idea, but I'm recruiting great people and so many people in the creative space. There was a book, I don't know if you ever read the book Darkness Visible by William Strefen.

I haven't, but I'm going to now.

Yeah, he's a Pulitzer Prize. He wrote Sophia's Choice and he wrote a book about pretty much about being so depressed you can't take your own life. It's so dark. And one of the things he mentioned in that book is how so many of the most creative people, the top creative artists and entertainers and people in the world, the way they died was they took their own lives and so there's a huge link between depression, anxiety, addiction, and massively creative people. And so there's a lot where we can go down this road. But, I mean, since you've dealt with depression, how do you today stay positive, creative, and productive in the face of, you know, strong feelings, like feeling really dark and really depressed? I mean, how have you either maintained it or how have you come out of it? Or, you know, how do you. What have you done in your life that has been useful having. Having dealt with depression?

Sure. Well. Well, first let me say that, man, I have. I have so much compassion for anybody who. Who's dealt with it or dealing with it, because I really know what that's like. And we've had dear, dear friends and family members that have taken their own life. And so, you know, have lived through the kind of the wreckage of that, you know, and gone through the wreckage of that. But, I mean, thankfully, I'm very grateful that I honestly have not dealt with it in years. There came a point in my life where, you know, kind of hit the bottom and bounced off the bottom. And the best way I can describe it is, you know, had kind of a. Kind of a spiritual or, like, mystical experience that is kind of akin to. I don't know if you've ever read the Power of Now by Eckhart Tolle, but, you know, he was going through this. Yeah, it was kind of that sort of moment where you're like, okay, I cannot live with myself. And then something just kind of clicked and. And I was able to see myself with compassion. And then just kind of started on this journey of, you know, contemplative living. And, you know, meditation played a large role in that. Contemplative prayer and not. Not being so driven by the things that I knew would never be fulfilling. And we all do this, and like I said, it's insanity. You know, we pursue these things and put our identity in them, knowing that when we get those things that they won't be enough. So, what, we know this, and yet we pursue these things? Well, what if you could. What if you could just let go of that stuff, you know, and just be okay without it? What if it really was true that you already have what you need right now to be happy? It's just your unwillingness to be happy that is the problem. Like, the world isn't the problem. Like, I'm the problem, you're the problem. You know, you are your own problem. And if you're willing to see things differently, then stuff starts to happen. You Start taking responsibility for your life and how you see things. And that's really what I did. I just started taking responsibility for my own life and no longer relied on circumstances to. To be the driver for my happiness. Right. Like I can be happy no matter what. And I've been fortunate enough. I've made a lot of money in my life. I've also been poor in my life. And so I know what it's like to be appreciated and to achieve. And I also know what it's like to lose everything. And once you realize that they're both kind of the same, that you come out on the other side the same no matter what, like you're still going to live. And so if you can just embrace that, things change, they start to change. And having other people in your life that can speak light and truth into you is indispensable too.

That is some great insight there. Yeah, I really, really appreciate you sharing that.

Let's see.

Because you got a few more minutes, Kevin, because we're past the time of where we usually start asking someone to give all their websites and all that sort of stuff to get further things, but I'd love to ask you a couple more questions. And Dean, anything you want to say to that before I move on here?

Well, I think he's really hit on something that this idea that we really only can experience things right now and everything, even you think about the things that maybe will make you happy or make you people think having more money.

But when you really get right down.

To it, today being the only day that we can live, the only. I just had a conversation like this.

With a friend and I said, what.

Would change If I deposited $100 million in your bank account right this second?

Right.

And so it's just like, just lay.

Out the timeline for me.

And when you really realize how the actual like functional value of money in your actual day to day life, it's. It's just a construct really because you're only going to use a small portion of that money today to be really happy, to engineer whatever a perfect day is for you. And so it's just like so resonant with a lot of the thinking and conversations that I've been having lately. So great to have the conversation, Kevin. I thank you for bringing that kind of stuff to us.

Yeah, you know. No, no, good, Kevin.

Yeah, and I was gonna say, I was gonna say that entrepreneurs, entrepreneurs are hardwired differently than most people. And so I think they. Entrepreneurs tend to deal with these kinds of issues more because really, because entrepreneurs are creative. You brought up artists, you know, creative people who are highly creative have the ability to tell stories, and we live in those stories. Right. And so it's that storytelling ability that, that, that can either take you to carry you to great heights or take you down to hell. Because, I mean, neuroscience has proven this that when you imagine something, your brain, your, your body chemistry does not know the difference between something that is real, just real, or imagined. The fight or flight response in your body, in your biochemistry, is exactly the same. And so when you, when you imagine, you think about all these things, what could go wrong, and you get depressed and you actually do create this physical reality, which is why it's so hard to escape from if you're a person who lives in your head. And so entrepreneurs, I think, are more prone to it because entrepreneurs tend to be more imaginative. They challenge the status quo, all of those things.

Yeah, absolutely. I mean, I got to share this with you real quick. This is kind of an aside because right before I was getting ready to hop on this episode and record this with you, you guys, I have a massage therapist friend named Rachel and she's awesome. And her father writes books on communication and whatnot. And so she'd been sharing with me a book that she had read that she loves, one of her favorite books called Jitterbug Perfume, written by Tom Robbins. I don't know how many years ago that was written, but I sent her a link to your article. I sent, and I'm getting ready to interview the author of this article right now. And she just texted back because I looked at the phone to see what time we were at and she wrote, holy fuck, I love that number 10, which she wrote 100% madness is a double edged sword with an infinite potential, but a slippery slope to darkness. Madness in the sense of creativity. Now, of course, the piece that you wrote on number 10 was about, you know, the 20 things only highly creative people would understand is they live on the edge of joy and depression. Because they feel deeply, highly creative people often can quickly shift from joy to sadness or even depression. Their sensitive heart, while the source of their brilliance, is also the source of their suffering. And you know, that's one of the things that really resonated with me because, you know, being an addict, you don't know this Kevin, but I won't go into my whole thing. But When I was 18 years old, I weighed 105 pounds in my worst state from free basing coke for about three months straight. And I was literally on the Edge of nearly killing myself. I mean, I was like from just abuse. And it's amazing the level of. Throughout my life, although I've done so much work and I've doing better than I ever have in my life, I've always been one of these people that have. I can go to massive enthusiasm in relation to total depths of just overwhelm and darkness and despair and sometimes in a matter of minutes. And it's something that I've really meditating as an example, I do TM on most days, twice a day. When I'm doing what well, I do transcendental meditation. And like you're saying, it doesn't even need to be spiritual. It's just calming the mind. And that's been very helpful. There are a lot of people that never talk about this, but I'm around achievers and accomplishers all the time. And what advice would you have for them if they're in like, say, if you can relate to the times when you were in your darkest states and you felt hopeless or whatever? Do you have any recommendations or anything you would say that helped pull you out of it, that you've seen pull other people out of it, or to keep people that are just on the roller coaster? I mean, that constant roller coaster of up and down and the edge walkers to kind of become more even keel. Anything that you would recommend that you haven't already said, obviously.

Yeah. Well, let me say. Let me say a couple things. The first thing is that you need to understand that you are loved. Absolutely. You're loved by the people in your life. You're loved. I mean, you're just more loved than you can even possibly grasp or imagine. That's the first thing. Whether or not you feel it doesn't really matter at the moment. This is the truth. It is. It's just as sure as gravity. So that's the first thing. And the second thing is you're not alone. You're never alone. And there are people in your life that you can talk to. And all you have to do is just. You have. This takes a risk. Right? Right. You have to risk being intimate. Like, you know, a friend of mine once said, he's like, listen, intimacy is into me. See, it's like you get to see into me. You know, we're all. We're all heavily, heavily invested in these personalities and in being like these costumes that we wear around each other. Like, I'm a certain way. I have to be strong. I have to be a certain way around everybody else. Have a reputation, screw that like, what good does your reputation do you if you end up dead? So, you know, so the best thing that you could possibly do is like, step out of the shadows, come into the light. The light, you know, being metaphorical, obviously, and just talk to somebody that's always been, I mean, that was really the turning point for me is when you, you know, when you name whatever it is, like this fear or this darkness or this depression, you actually rob it of its power, you know, because, I mean, because that's what it is. Like you're pulling it into out of the shadows and saying, hey, look, this is what it is. And you know, 12 step programs, they've got that right. You know, it always comes down to that, like naming this thing, this demon or whatever you want to call it, this depression. And that's really the first step of it.

Yeah, that's.

That's great advice. No, good, good.

That's it. Yeah.

You know, when you said. Well, you just said out of the shadows. That is actually the very first book written by a friend of mine named Pat Carnes. Dr. Pat Carnes, he's the top doctor in the world on sex addiction. And I've never even really publicized that interview all that much, although it's been viewed over 100,000 times, the full length interview on YouTube right now. And like, one of my biggest interests in the world of addiction and behavior is behavior. Addictions, just Internet and gambling and sex and food. I just saw a commercial for some of the first virtual reality porn. And six months from now, a year from now, you're going to see a whole new slew of levels of addictive behavior that's gone even deeper and stuff. But your whole notion about talking to someone, naming it and rob it of its power is great. We have a friend, Dr. Edward Hollowell, who's considered the top ADD ADHD psychiatrist in the world. And he has this thing where he calls the three step worry plan, where if you're ever really worried, the first one is one, don't worry alone. So call someone, talk to someone, anything. Don't worry alone. Don't be in isolation. Number two is get the facts. He said, you can have cancer, but if you refuse to go to the doctor or find out what's wrong with you, you really don't know. So get the facts, even if you think the facts are going to be negative. And then three, have a plan. Because with the facts you can, can have a plan. And you know, his whole thing is like vitamin C, lots of connection. And what I'm Thinking about with one of our addiction podcasts is actually calling it I Love Connection, because I think more than anything, addiction as an example, is a connection disorder. It's the inability to connect with yourself. It's the inability to connect with others. And I think what you said about you are loved even if you can't feel it. I mean, I sit here while you're saying that and really think, well, you know, what if you aren't loved? What if you're totally alone and no one knows you? And then I was, of course, listening to what. What are you going to say to it? That was my initial reaction. And then, you know, you mentioned, you know, you're never alone, take a risk of being intimate into me, you know, I see. And I just think those are really profound words. Way more than what probably someone listening to I Love marketing would think they were going to hear about this. So do you got a marketing question, Dean?

This is the way all of our conversations.

No, I'm totally kidding. No, no. So that's really great. So let me ask you, like, one more thing kind of similar to this. How do you cultivate peace of mind in the midst of overwhelm, busy schedule and so on? I mean, maybe you have a way of dealing with it, but there's a lot of people that would, like, they're just, you know, it's hard to. To take in, like, feeling peaceful or feeling loved when they feel. Feel so pressured. And it's probably because they're not in a state of being in the now or say in a situation someone really is not making ends meet. You know, they simply don't have enough money to pay their bills. They've had, you know, just a lot of trauma, you know, that sort of stuff. Any, any, any words of wisdom there of cultivating peace of mind in the midst of craziness?

Yeah, well, yeah, I mean, I've been there, so it's. I think it's helpful to remember that you, you are not. You are not your circumstances, right? You're like, if you peel away all this stuff, like, we're born, like, we're born with nothing. We'll die with nothing. Right? So we're already up a lot. Like, we're good. You know, we have, you know, food to eat. And, you know, my worst day is definitely not the worst day possible in human history. So everything is context. And so usually, and this is where having friends and family and people you can talk to, it helps because we don't see clearly all the time, which is why it's not good for people to be alone because we get so focused, like, so myopic on our situation that we can't see the, like, the hope and we can't see the perspective. I mean, that's the first thing lately. I was feeling kind of overwhelmed the other day and so went for a walk. I mean, I'm just a pretty simple guy, so I do things like go for walks and turn off my cell phone. I don't watch, you know, just turn off the TV and just kind of enjoy some quiet. And I tell you one other thing that has become a regular practice for me. Once a year I will do. I'll just go away. I have a wife and daughter, and they let me go away in December. I went to Colorado for a week, stayed at a friend's cabin. There's no Internet, no cell coverage. You have to go 20 minutes into town to get any kind of cell coverage. And it's just like. Just to. Just to be quiet.

Unplug from the Matrix.

Yeah, unplug. Exactly.

How long did you go for?

It was a week.

Okay.

Yeah. And it takes about two or three days before, like, the first two or three days, you're kind of going crazy. But you got to stick with it and then you're good, right? And then that carries you through. But I don't know, that's. It's hard. I mean, it's hard to be on this end of a micro telling somebody who's having their worst day ever. Well, you should just go for a walk. You know, everybody's different. But, you know, for me, it's always. It's always helpful to remember, okay. I've gotten through some of what I thought were the worst days ever. And in hindsight, they. They're really not that bad. I made it. And, you know, I'll always make it through that stuff. What's worse, it can happen.

Yeah. Yeah. No, that's really great. I mean, like, my typical overwhelmed state is I'll be, you know, have virtual reality headsets on, talking to an artificial intelligence system that's programming, some machine learning, and I'll hop off and go hop on a pogo stick and try to just relax. And I'm totally making that shit up right now.

That sounds awesome.

Yeah. No, it actually probably would be. As I sit and babble this nonsense. No, but the simplest things in life could be just going for a walk. I mean, like, some of the things, if I really think about it, I mean, I've worked really hard to build a business, and I get to do a lot of really cool things. I mean, I meet amazing people and I go to nice places and I live pretty well. And I'm incredibly blessed to be living in America, which I think, in spite of what some people would criticize, I think is an amazing country. And just the mere fact that I was born here, I feel lucky. So, I mean, I don't. I mean, my level of stuff that I deal with compared to what other people is, you know, I'm incredibly grateful and blessed and in so many ways. And the things that truly make me the happiest, you know, when I'm thinking from my higher self is they're the simplest things. I mean, you know, being outside, being in nature, talking to someone, just, you know, just, just being. And you get so caught up in shit sometimes that you just forget that maybe walking outside and taking a walk will, you know, closing your eyes. You know, if you're too busy to meditate, you really need to meditate. If you're too busy to exercise and, you know, you really could benefit because those things don't take time. They actually make time. And what I mean by make time is, you know, that's a made up thing because time is time. It's just, it's your experience of life really shifts when you, you know, when you just don't beat yourself up.

Yeah. Let me ask a question.

Yeah, go ahead.

And this kind of makes, this kind of makes a point of what we're talking about asking the question, what was your great, great, great grandfather's name?

Man, that I do not know. The most I can go back I can remember is John.

So this is somebody who's three generations removed in your family line who at some point was thinking the exact same things, were thinking, you know, about the value of their life and all of the dreams and hopes that they had, right? And being remembered. And you don't know his name. But that's a really good object lesson for us. It's that no matter how successful you are, no matter what you do, your great, great, great grandchildren, if you have any, probably won't know your name.

Yeah.

So eat, drink and be merry. Have fun. Life is kind of a game. Life is a game and you get to play it. You get to play with other people that you can have a lot of fun with. So treat each other well, play the game well with each other, but just realize in the end, all of this stuff that you get, somebody else is going to get it after you're gone and they will forget you. And it takes all the pressure off. Have fun.

You know what, though? There's only one pro. No, I hear you. Totally hear you. And I'm hesitant to not be my typical sarcastic, joking self on stuff we are recording. I love marketing, though. This could exist for generations 10. I mean, there's no telling. That's right. I mean, we are recording this. And so. But no, I totally hear you.

And look your books for that reason.

Yeah, we do, we do. No, but the thing is, a lot of people put a. An emphasis, you know, when I die, there's. I'm gonna leave a lot of messes and the world's gonna be completely fine, you know, with. With. It'll go on totally fine without me there. And so, you know your whole point of. Yeah, live your life, enjoy it, don't create, you know, unnecessary.

We've seen it happen to have a way. I mean, we've seen happen all around.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, totally.

Well, what.

What does.

What does success mean to you? And how do you. How would you know that you're achieving it or do you even think of it that way?

I think I define success as somebody who is. Who is truly living out of the center of who they are. Right. So they're just being themselves regardless of if it's popular or not. Right. So it's that whole authentic, even if it's not popular kind of thing. I know when I'm doing it well. I know when I'm not doing it well. I know when I'm posing. Right. When I'm just trying to be somebody else so I can impress other people. I think we all know that, like when we're doing that or when we're really being ourselves. So I think. I don't know. I mean, I've lived enough life and I'm still really young to know that success, money, possessions, all that kind of stuff does not equal success. And I think everybody knows that. We don't wish that was true, but that's the truth. Yeah, I mean, I think success is just being who you really are. Like the fullest expression of you and your creativity and all of the unique and awesome things that only you can do in your way. Right?

Yeah, totally. And living a life that you really want to live. I mean, making all the money in the world, having all the accomplishments and all of that, which I don't poo poo. I mean, I actually am a big believer.

Yeah.

I mean, if you want to go out and make a lot of money and you want to have a lot of material stuff and it's going to give you a quality of life. I mean, you know, why the hell would anyone, you know, frown upon that? And at the same time, you can, you can accomplish those things and be really amazing and it could be a catalyst for a greater life where you can do those things. Things and be miserable. So it's really, it's not about winning the battle, it's about winning the war, but knowing what you're even in. And the war actually should not be a war with yourself. It should actually be something that is truly fulfilling and exciting and energizing. At least that's what I think. But hopefully, as I go through life, I keep increasing my level of confidence, consciousness. So, okay, so let's do this because there's so many more things I could ask you about. I mean, let's. We gotta. We can't do this all day. Like they say on that infomercial.

Yeah.

Yeah. You're a writer. You spend your time putting words down. You help other people with this. Clearly you've probably had books that have changed your life, I would imagine. What books? The question I usually would have is what books should every entrepreneur read? But in this particular case, what books should every person. If you want to keep it to entrepreneurs, we can do that. Read. Or what are three books or a couple of books or whatever. The book, however you want to frame it that everyone should look at, read.

Well, you mentioned the War of Art by Steven Pressfield. I think that's a fantastic book.

Agreed.

It's geared toward writers, but. But it's so great. So you have to read that. Daring Greatly by Brenna Brown. That book came in, came at a time in my life when it was just the right book at the right time. And it's all about vulnerability and transparency. Fantastic book. If you, if you're not a reader, at least go check out her TED Talk. It's one of the most watched TED talks in history, all about the power of vulnerability.

Yeah, her videos on vulnerability and stuff are like, in 2000, I think it was 2012, I actually had dinner with Brene at Conscious Capitalism the night before she spoke. And her shit is awesome and it's really good.

Yeah, she's great. And then the last one, I would say for the artists out there, Twyla Tharp wrote a book called the Creative Habit, which is really fantastic book that is about the creative habit and creativity as a habit that you cultivate. That's kind of like a muscle, you know, so you can develop creativity as a reflex, like you would shooting free throws. It's just a matter of practicing, practicing, practicing and finding ways to incorporate it into your life. So that's another really great book. War of Art. Darren, greatly the Creative Habit.

Love it. Great recommendations. I appreciate it. So we will list those also on the website. Dean, anything you would like to say or ask Kevin before we wrap up?

Wow.

I think we've, I think we've said it all. I think we really, this was, you know, we started off with one thought. We kind of took some meandering road but deeper conversation. So I appreciate all of that. It was really great to get to know you a little bit.

Yeah, totally. This must be the, the strangest marketing conversation that's happened this week.

You know what's funny though, we do have I Love marketing, but it's sort of a trick. Me and Dean love marketing. If people go back and listen to our past episodes of I Love Marketing, there's more strategy and technique and proven methodology and templates and formulas and processes for anyone to build a business out. We've had people tell us they've become millionaires by listening to our I Love Marketing podcast and people that have never even bought anything from us just because we really just give it away. Much of what we think about, though, is not just making someone a better marketer, but hopefully giving people perspectives so they can just build a better human being. What I do in Genius Network, I just want to build a better entrepreneur. I want to help help people reach their bigger future, whatever that is to them, and accomplish. But I also want to take as much as I can. I want to remove suffering, unnecessary suffering from people's life, not to take their struggles from them. Because sometimes people's struggles are their gifts, just to hopefully clear a lot of the bullshit out of the way. And having people talk about what we've been talking about towards the end of this episode is what to me is most interesting. I mean, you can learn marketing techniques, but if you're living in a place of fatigue or overwhelm or stress, you're just not going to do that much with it. When people's lives are working, they can listen to what me and Dean talk about marketing wise, and they can implement it, they can apply it. They'll make a lot of money, they'll do really well, they'll get better clients. But what prevents them from doing that is all the other stuff, which is why it's, it's really important. And so heck, we do episodes on health. We do episodes on all kinds of stuff. And yeah, I mean, because I'm just curious. And Dean is sort of like probably like bi curious in a little bit of ways. You like that joke, Dean? You like that?

You like that? That's pretty good.

So, yeah, you just, you really got a diss on Dean. I mean, just right in the moment when people think there's some loving compassion, you just got to throw like one of those. Right. So where should people go to learn more about you? Read your writing, see what you do, and maybe even if someone wants to work with you, what do they do?

Yeah, easiest way is just kevinkiser Co. That's it. Yeah. Most of my writing is behind the scenes ghost written, so I can't even tell you. Not allowed to tell you. But Kevin Kaiser, that's secret. Hit me up. Love to talk to you.

Awesome. Any famous last words? Anything? We should have asked you that. We did not.

I don't think so. I mean, I think you pretty much covered all the bases. Yeah, marketing, spirituality, man, the whole, the whole nine.

Yeah, we didn't cover politics, but that's, that's good. We don't want to talk politics right now. That'll be for a future one. But no, in all seriousness, Kevin, this was really, really. And I'm really happy that I tracked you down because one of the things I do, which hopefully will operate as maybe a useful lesson to some of our listeners, when I see something that intrigues me or I read something from a person or whatever, I actually seek that person out. And I do it in ways I never ask anyone to do anything for me if I can't create value for them first. So even, like, you know, a lot of people ask me, will you do an interview with me for my podcast or do whatever and you know, unless it's aligned with what it is that I'm doing or they have a giant following and there is a lot to be said with, you know, hey, we're promoters and you know, I'm not going to. If I can't get someone's work out to lots of people, I'm not, I'm not going to ask them to do something or give the impression that it's going to be useful. So, you know, I mean, that's. I. But I pursue people and I really try to do it in ways that's going to be mutually beneficial to me, to my clients and to them. And that's this sort of thing. I just, you know, I go throughout my life and I've met so many amazing people simply because once I, you know, once I either hear about them, read about them, see them. I try to take it a step further. And so you're, you know, it's amazing what can happen when you read an article and you actually, you know, try to track down the, the author. And, and I'm curious to see if there's going to be a spike in that article and share ability of it as a result of this podcast. And if there isn't that this means that no one actually listened to this one and it's just the three of us talking silently.

Thank you guys for having me on. It's been so much fun. And yeah, I mean everything really is about alignment and alignment and doing things with other people that create something that you couldn't do on your own. So I'm honored that you had me on. So thank you very much, both of you guys.

You're welcome. You're welcome to all of our listeners. Please give us your thoughts and comments. And you know, since the whole subject of this was started with shareability, read Kevin's article if you've not already read it. I know some people will be listening to this episode and they're like, look, we got to go read this article that these guys are talking about. It's 20 things only highly creative people would understand. Kevin Kaiser, K A I S E R Co is his website and share his article. If you really like it, continue to share it because it's good and let us know what you think. And until next time, call up someone right now that you know and tell them you love them and have yourself a wonderful day or evening, whatever part of the world you're in. And thank you so much for listening to I Love marketing and subscribe on itunes if you haven't already and we'll talk to you next time. It.