How To Utilize The CARES Act and New Laws To Increase Your Cash and Keep Your Business Going During COVID-19 Featuring Jim Dew, Tony Rose, and Joe Polish - Genius Network Episode #142

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It'S hard to comprehend the enormity of the new CARES act, but it can certainly help those who need and know how to take advantage of it. Learn what it all means in today's episode of the Genius Network Podcast. In this episode, Jim Doo, Tony Rose and Joe Polish discuss the key elements of the CARE act that can help business owners and entrepreneurs through this time of uncertainty. They'll also break down the mindset and the focus required to get through this time of crisis stronger, more resilient and and more purposeful than ever. If you'd like to join world renowned entrepreneurs at this year's Genius Network Annual event, then apply today for your invitation to attend. If you'd like to learn more about the Genius Network Annual event or to apply, go to geniusnetwork.com hello, this is.

Joe Polish with Genius Network and I'm about to do a very important interview with a couple of very smart friends clients, financial experts, I guess you would call them their Genius Network members. Their names are Jim Doo and Tony Rose and I'm going to time date this for you so you know the context of what we're doing. Although what I'm going to discuss with them is universal and will probably be beneficial and helpful for you and your business for many, many years, there's some timely things that are important that we discuss and that's what I'm going to talk with Jim and Tony about. And the reason I asked both of them on here is because I actually want to know and learn about what I'm going to ask them questions. And you as a business owner, as an entrepreneur, I think you'll find this extremely valuable and in many cases it might be a lifesaver for many entrepreneurs that are out there. So let me do a quick intro of both Jim and Tony and then we'll get into some discussion. So Jim Do. He's the advisor to the entrepreneur. He's the CEO and founder of Do Wealth Management. Jim has 25 years of experience building virtual family offices for entrepreneurs. He earned a B.S. in Mathematics from the University of Arizona and an MBA from Arizona State University. Jim's a certified Financial Planner, Chartered Financial Consultant, and a Certified Private Wealth Advisor. Jim's been a guest on podcasts like Entrepreneurs on Fire, the Vacation Effect, the Respect, and the Ultimate Advisor. He's presented at all kinds of groups including Genius Network, War Room, Legendary Life, and Pathfinder Jim. Jim's been featured in Inc. Huffington Post magazines and he's the author of a wonderful book called Beyond a the Entrepreneur's Playbook for expanding wealth, freedom and time. And of course, Jim has been my personal advisor for over two decades so I know him very well and very much Trust what he has to share. Tony Rose is a founding partner of Rose Snyder and Jacobs llp. He's best selling co author of Beautiful Grief. He's a member of Genius Network. Tony's also the president of Genius Recovery foundation and is the director of the Smith center for the Performing Arts. His client responsibilities include tax and management consulting advice to closely help corporations, family owned businesses, partnerships and the high net worth individuals that own them. Tony has spent considerable time resolving the complexities faced by families of wealth through counseling and leading multidisciplinary teams of professionals. He has provided valuable guidance at the point where life intersects well along with an uncommon passion for client centered outcomes. Tony focuses on the capital that families and businesses own that are non financial as described in his book Five Eyes on the Fence. Tony's also the author of say hello to the Elephant. So to both of you guys, thank you for taking time on a Sunday morning to talk about what people that are running companies and businesses, many that are very scared and really some in very bad places making decisions. It's great to have both you here and sharing this. So thank you. Happy to be here, Joe. Cool. So let me, let me just jump right into it and if there's anything along the way you want to switch gears, just go for it. But I want to address something that a lot of people are, you know, right now. What is this? So I was just reading that the huge stimulus bill was just signed into law on, you know, Friday, a couple days ago. At the time we're recording this, something like 800 pages of stuff. So what is this? And why should entrepreneurs care about this right now?

Yeah. So I'll start off and you know, this is called the Coronavirus Aid Relief and Economic Security act, or the CARES Act. And this is an enormous bill. This is a $2.2 trillion bill. And when I was a public school math teacher, I would try to get kids to understand the difference between a million, a billion and a trillion. So I used to ask the kids, how long does it take for a million seconds to go by? And the answer is about 11 days. Then I'd ask, how long does it take for a billion seconds to go by? And they give different answers. And the answer is about 32 years. And then how long does it take for a trillion seconds to go by? About 32,000 years. So I just want to put that in context for the Listeners, this is an enormous bill with a lot of provisions. It's a complex bill. And you know, Tony and I have been looking at this a lot and talking together about it, and there's a lot of things in there that could really help you as an entrepreneur, as a business owner.

Let me just add real quick, Joe, that the enormity of the bill makes it difficult to unpack and the fact that it might be a trillion dollars. It needs to be boiled down to what our fellows that are listening now can do now and in the future for them, which is considerably smaller in dollar magnitude but maybe even bigger than a trillion in immediacy for them.

So what should someone listening do to access this? Take advantage of what would be some of the first steps.

Yeah, your situation and your business and really figure out what you need right now to survive. And then there's also provisions in here. Even if you're just uncertain and you feel like you have enough cash and cash flow, the uncertainty can be immense. And doing things now before you get into trouble can really be smart. And maybe we should jump into one of the biggest provisions. Tony, I don't know if we should get right into the payroll protection program and talk about that because this is something that applies to a lot of listeners and they could think about immediately.

The payroll protection program is designed to keep people working. So it's a. An immediate program. Although we'll talk in a minute. Probably it's not as immediate as we'd like. Like it's not tomorrow, even though you can apply for it theoretically tomorrow. And what it is, is, is a program to promote retention of employees by helping subsidized businesses through a loan program that will ultimately be forgivable given certain characteristics for employers with not more than 500 employees. I don't know whether you want me to go into some of the specific provisions, but to say something administrative, it's going to be something administered, guaranteed by the Small Business Administration, but administered by banks that are signed up with Small Business Administration to provide basically two and a half months of cash flow for a business to maintain their employees.

Yeah, well, that would actually be very valuable for many people. I mean, not all, but certainly a lot. It could be the one thing that keeps them afloat. And so go ahead and add to that. Jim, what are you going to say?

Yeah, yeah, I was just going to say. So to put some specifics to that, this loan, this paycheck protection program loan is a maximum of the lower of 10 million or two and a half times the average Average monthly payment, payroll for the last 12 months. So if your average monthly payroll for the last 12 months per month was a million bucks, you can get up to two and a half million dollars for this loan. And the proceeds can be used for payroll costs, group health insurance, premium, salaries, commissions, rent, mortgage interest, not prepaid mortgage interest, but mortgage interest, rent, utilities, all kinds of things. It's, it covers and protects you from. And really, this is anything that you put into place, like if it's a rent or mortgage or a lease agreement, anything put into place prior to February 15th of this year can be covered by that loan. And then there's a forgivable portion, and that is 100% of the amount spent on the following during the last eight weeks or following the eight weeks of issuance. So once you get this loan, you can get forgiven two months worth of, of your payroll. And that's not just payroll. So it's payroll costs excluding compensation above 100,000. So if you have an employee making more than 100,000, the more than 100,000 is excluded. Rent, group, health insurance. And listen to some of these things that can be forgiven. Paying for electricity, gas, water, transportation, telephone, Internet access, anything that are expenses or services of those kind that began prior to February 15th. So those can all be forgiven two months worth. So if you have, let's say, a million per month payroll, you could have a, you know, $2 million loan forgiven by the federal government, which could be huge for a business owner.

Now, one thing about this program is that there are other SBA programs available as well. And as I recall, Jim, if you opt in for this program, the other programs may not be totally available to you.

That's exactly right. As a general rule, if you're getting government benefit like this, what we're talking about, you know, the paycheck protection program, if you're getting money for that, you can't also get money for. There's a payroll tax credit that we can talk about. So they're not going to let you double dip. Now, there is a catch to getting this money forgiven. And the catch is, and by the way, to get the loan, a lot of people are going to ask, how do I get the loan? To get the loan, you have to do a certification that you need the loan based on the uncertainty economically for your company. And I don't want to take this lightly that just anybody should just do it because there is this thing called fraud if you lie to the government. On the other hand, think about your business today to say, I'm uncertain about the future economic times because of COVID And because of that, I don't know what's going to happen. And I need to get some money to get ahead of this. That would apply to a lot of people. So that's the certification. You have to say, hey, I am worried about this uncertainty because of this. COVID 19 and I need money because of it. So that's what it takes, a certification to the government to get the loan and some other things that Tony can talk about. So the forgiveness. Here's how you get the forgiveness. Because remember, there's a catch. The government's trying to keep employers like you and me from firing employees. So you have to keep the same number of employees from that you had on average from February 15th of this year to June 30th of this year, compared to either the same period in 2019 or compared to January 1st to February 15th of this year. So in other words, you can't fire a bunch of people and then get loan forgiveness on this the other. May I, Jim? Yeah, can I just.

I just want to disturb in now if you have laid off people or furloughed people, you may bring them back for this purpose or for the good of your business, obviously. And we need to be sure to talk about that later, Jim, so that you may be a business where you've laid off 90% of your workforce, you may bring them back on as long as they can be useful for your business without being penalized under this program. I think it's 30 days within the next 30 days after date of enactment.

Yeah. There is a mechanism so that if you fired a bunch of people and you said, hey, if I knew about this program, I wouldn't have fired them. You can bring them back and still qualify. So the ways that you get the forgiveness are you have to keep the same number of employees, as I said, in those kind of comparisons. And you can't cut wages or salary of any employee making less than $100,000 by more than 25%. So the government's trying to keep you from keeping everyone on and cutting their their salaries by 50%. Right. So anyone who's making less than $100,000, cutting them by more than 25%, can exclude you from the forgiveness part of the loan. You can still get the loan, but the forgiven forgiveness part of the loan is the eight weeks after you get the loan for all those expenses I just talked about, you have to keep the same number of employees. You don't lose it all if you don't there's a calculation as to how they reduce the forgiveness. And you can't be cutting people who make less than $100,000. You can't cut their salaries by more than 25%. So those are the ways you qualify for the forgiveness. So you can see how there are a lot of entrepreneurs who could qualify for that forgiveness. So that could be really huge for you. And the loan itself can be a 10 year loan and the maximum interest rate is 4%. So if you think about getting a 10 year loan at 4% for a business owner, that's a pretty good deal also, just even without the forgiveness.

So a couple things going back to the certification, we believe in our office that certainly any state that has a statewide stay at home order order going on or any kind of quarantine absolutely should be able to qualify for this kind of loan. If you happen to be in a state that is not quarantined or under a stay at home order, we think more likely than not the general uncertainty in the country will be enough so that you can make a certification of uncertainty under penalties of perjury. Because I can't think of anyone in the United States now that isn't uncertain.

I agree, Tony. A couple other things to keep in mind if you get that debt forgiveness. Often debt forgiveness is taxable, but this discharge is non taxable. And the payments for the loan on that 10 year loan, if you get a 10 year loan, are deferred for between six and 12 months. It's not clear in the law whether it's going to be 6 or 12 and how they're going to decide that. But there will be a deferral of payments on that loan.

So maybe it's important to talk about, maybe it's important to talk about how people go about getting that.

That was my next question. I was gonna, I was gonna say to you guys too that I'll let everyone know that with the show notes on whatever podcast you're listening to this on. Because I may actually put this on different podcast channels of mine just for maximum reach so it can get to as many business owners as possible. We'll put links to where specifically to go. So as we talk about this, let's add to it. And I do want to mention that I set up a single site where I've been putting everything from health and your business and mindset and everything since this pandemic started. Geniusnetwork insights.com geniusnetworkinsights.com and any links or things that you guys provide me With I will put those along with this interview and anything even after the fact, that's an update. I will keep everyone updated there because I just want to put out things that will be most, most useful. So, yeah, what, how does one go about doing this?

So the general, so the general idea of the government on this is that banks who have been lenders to the sba, and I understand that they're going to be any bank that you might have that may not currently be an SBA lender can apply and get pretty immediate authorization to be an SBA lender. They are going to be authorized to make loans under what is called the SBA 7A program. It's 7A, right, Jim.

And absolutely.

And it's supposed to be a very simplified process. Now, this doesn't mean that you won't have to prepare some financial information and even possibly a personal financial statement, though this loan in particular is not going to be a recourse loan. That means that you won't have to make a personal guarantee. This is really important. It was pointed out in a genius network meeting, I believe a couple days ago, that you want to make sure that your attorneys are reading the documents before you sign them to make sure that the banks don't slip in anything that might be giving up your rights to have this be a non recourse loan.

Yeah, very valuable.

Go ahead.

That's great information. And by the way, you have up until June 30th to apply for this loan. I certainly wouldn't wait if you think this is going to help you, but that's the time frame. You have to apply by June 30th for this loan.

Okay. And by the way, there's many factors that are going into the decision making process here. This is primarily so that for employment or what are the other factors that they're utilizing to make these decisions? Because from a, you know, I'm nowhere near an expert in financial related matters as both of you guys are. So what are all of the things that are happening right now as a result of this? Not just with employment, but banks and other stuff that have a lot to do with how these decisions are being made on setting these programs up?

Well, from a tax standpoint, from a tax standpoint, the loan forgiveness being non taxable is really huge. Having said that, and this is certainly not a reason not to take the loan if it's appropriate for you. But for those of you that have entities where you need to establish tax basis in order to take any losses that you might have in 2000 in 2020, you have to establish something called tax basis. You may not be able to utilize losses related that might have been funded through this loan facility as a deductible or operating loss against your taxes in the future. And so you need to be making sure you're talking to your accountants to make sure that everything kind of lines up perfectly and you understand that, oh, my God, I have a $250,000 loss. But if it was funded by that loan, you may not be able to use it for income tax purposes. That's very account Nesque of me. And maybe that's unimportant at this point.

No, no, it was all valuable. One thing, you know my friend and you guys know him also because you met him at Genius Network, Keith Cunningham, who wrote many books, but one of them is the Road Less Stupid. He's been sending me these really powerful documents that he's written up just on how to deal with the crisis, because in the 80s, he lost over $100 million. And so he's been through losing, you know, having his entire business decimated. And, you know, he has a one. And again, these documents are on geniusnetworkinsights.com he's talking about when you're letting people go in situations where you have to fire people or furlough people or let them go. His whole thing instead of just across the board reducing percentages of everyone's payroll or income, you actually think of who are your A players in your company, and those are the ones that you have to just really put the most emphasis on. Do you guys have any thoughts on all the different things that entrepreneurs are doing right now, from having to let people go to, you know, reducing what you're paying everybody? I mean, do you have any thoughts.

On any of that?

Or as it relates to this that you think the listeners should be aware of, or any ways that you would recommend they think about this to make those very, very difficult decisions?

Jim, you and I just discussed this. Do you want to expound a little bit?

Yeah.

So I came up with an acronym for all this for business owners called Covid. And the C is cash. And Keith talks a lot about cash as king, and he's right. And when we think about cash, there's three things to think about. First of all is what cash do you have? And all your banks, your checking accounts, your saving accounts, your money markets, your CDs, total that up so that you know what your cash reserves are. The second part of cash is what do you have that converts to cash so if you have a portfolio of stocks and bonds, may not be wise to sell them right now because they're probably down. However, that's somewhere that you need to know that you could convert into cash. Even possibly some real estate could be converted into cash. And then the last piece which really ties into this cares act is access to cash. When you think about access to cash, think about all your lines of credit, your credit card, credit cards, all those types of things that you have. And I really think it's important for all entrepreneurs to think about having two banking relationships. So one bank for what you owe and one bank for what you own. So if you have a bank that you have a line of credit. So for example, in 2008, I had an $800,000 line of credit at a bank and I actually sat on the board of that bank. I had a secondary bank though. Whereas where I kept my deposit, what I owned, why is that important? Well, I. Luckily I didn't have to use the Money, but in 2008, I was nervous, it was uncertain. So I pulled my $800,000 line of.

Credit, but guess what?

I put it at the other bank. Why is that important? Well, because if I kept it at the bank where I owed the money, they could easily grab that as collateral if they didn't feel like they were comfortable with what was going on in my business. In fact, the chief credit officer saw me do it like he saw it on the banking system. And he came to me, he said, hey, what'd you do with the 800,000? And I said, wouldn't you like to know? And we laughed about it because he knew that that put me in a position where if I had to, I could negotiate with them and say, hey, I'll pay you over 10 years or I'll pay interest only. But if the $800,000 deposit was already at the bank, they just grab it. So keep that in mind when it comes to those kinds of relationships. Also, if you have a portfolio of stocks and bonds, you can get what's called a securities backed line of credit on that portfolio so you don't have to sell your portfolio if you need the money, don't do a margin account, those are usually much higher interest rates. But do a securities backed line of credit. One other thing, and then I'll kind of let you guys jump in, is insurance. Look at your insurance policies because you may have work stoppage provisions of your policies or labor stoppage provisions in your policies that would actually give you cash on a claim right now, today, if you have a captive insurance company or a segregated asset plan or a private insurance company, look at your coverages. You may actually have coverage that could get you an influx of cash. And then there's a lot of things in this CARES act that we can talk about that can create cash, like what Tony and I just finished talking about. But I'll pause and let you guys jump in if you want to talk more about cash. And then I can go to the. To the rest of the COVID Well.

I'll give you an example of what we've done in our business and an example of what you just talked about. About an incident with one of our clients. One of our clients is a Internet oriented company that had had a line of credit with the bank. And early last week the bank called him and said, we're freezing your line of credit. The result is that he laid off, out of 75 people, all but 15 people because he didn't have the cash to be able to finance their payroll. The banks shouldn't be that way at this point, but some banks are going.

To be that way.

So you need to be very careful. In our business, we quickly analyzed what our working capital was and what available cash and what our burn rate was to establish how long we could exist in a world where our revenues may not be as great or maybe reduced by a lot over the next several months. The fact we looked at ourselves and actually we had a couple months where we could actually have no revenues and probably keep our business going at almost the same rate. What that did, that analysis of our cash resources gave me confidence and my other partners confidence that we could be good to our employees, we could be good to our clients and not be seriously impeded six months from now or a year from now, because we will burn through all of our operating cash. So this analysis shouldn't make you scared, but it should give you some kind of confident, persistent attitude that you can tough it through this time.

Very helpful, very helpful.

You know, one thing I want to.

Actually mention too, when people are really stressed out and anxiety ridden and certainly, you know, we're seeing this probably the greatest level I've ever seen it in my lifetime in such a short, compressed period of time. And Tony, you volunteered to be president of Genius Recovery foundation, which is amazing right now. Vices go through the roof during economic crises and stress and wars and any period of time where people from a community level or a global level or where there's this massive amount of stress, people are escape. And a lot of people right now their stress level so high that they. They don't always not only make good decisions, but their. Their nervous system is so jacked up, for lack of a better word, they. They hear all of these things. They don't know how to just function very well. And so they start slipping on sleep and eating and all the things that a human has to do in order to. To live. And so there's a communication of all of these things, but then there's the comprehension. You know, I've thought about that quite a bit that, you know, I have these four season. I'm thinking about a lot right now that, you know, content is one thing, and there's a ton of content that's being put on people, and a lot of people are suffering from massive information overload. Then there's the context of how things are framed and what's important to you, and then there's communicating it. Then the other thing is comprehending it. And so what I want to. These very complex subjects, which is why I'm doing this interview with you guys, is I'm wanting people to be able to comprehend what they. What they can and cannot do through this whole process. Because I think comprehension right now is more important than even communication. Because I see a lot of people just trying to stuff as much information into their. Into their brains as they can. But there's, you know, there's a few tools in everyone's toolbox that if they. We're really just utilizing those in the best of ways would make the biggest difference. So continue on the COVID and let's go to the O if you could. Joe.

Yeah, that was great, Joe. So O is outgoing. So think about what's outgoing in cost and expenses. So this is personal end business. You want to sharpen your pencil and really look at what are you spending money on. What is your business spending money on? And you also want to be careful because you want to cut this environment, but you don't want to cut things that are necessary and helpful. So you don't want to lose any A players, even if you have to repurpose your employees to work on projects that will help you in six months or a year. Don't lose A players. Don't get rid of your network. Things like genius network. To me, that's one of the most important things to keep paying for because access to ideas and smart people is one of the things that will help you survive and then thrive through this type of thing. So look at your outgoing expenses. Even things like that, you might not think of if you have a 401k plan for your employees and you're doing a safe harbor match, if you're in a really tight bind, go to your plan sponsor. You may be able to take that safe harbor match, that match away so that you're not contributing toward those accounts. Now, there may be testing for highly compensated in the future, but if you're tight for money, that can be a way to actually, you know, reduce some of your expenses. So really sharpen your pencil and look at how can you cut costs, personal and business, but don't cut things that are necessary and helpful or are going to help you really succeed in the future.

This is especially important. I was talking to one client who owns a bowling alley and he's laid off everyone. And then we were talking about it and he said, well, you know, the equipment in a bowling alley can't sit for a month or two without being maintained. And he decided to bring back his mechanics that are maintaining that equipment to make sure that it's ready to go whenever we're ready to go. And I think those kinds of discussions about the outlays that you put, you need to really understand what's important to maintain the machinery of your business working.

Yeah, absolutely. Just to give you a personal example, and again, some, some businesses, if you literally have no cash, no cash on.

Hand.

What are you going to do in some situations? Now this is hence the reason we're having this conversation about loans and whatnot that are available in my own company. I have 14 full time employees and on March 13th I had a team meeting and I'd written up an impact filter which I actually did a podcast episode with dan Sullivan on TEDx Talk, which is also on geniusnetworkinsights.com A lot of people have commented on how helpful me explaining how I had a team meeting in communication and how I laid out our plan and I literally make it available. Everyone can go read my actual handwritten impact filter that I wrote where I had a team meeting and I said we need to look at every expense that is no longer needed and let's cut it for now. One of the things without my involvement, my team decided was a smart decision, was I own an 11,000 square foot building where the Genius Network headquarters are, which you guys have been too many times. And they decided that we're gonna, you know, cut out $900 a month on a particular cleaning crew. Not our only cleaning crew, but one of the cleaning crews, and that everyone on the team would do it themselves. And of course you know, I started as a professional carpet upholstery cleaner in the early 90s. So I understand the cleaning business die, of course, have a soft spot for all these people that have cleaning companies. You know, I want to. They're struggling, right? Some are and most are. And, you know, what just dawned on me after this last week is like, that is not a very smart decision on where to cut money because I'm now paying my employees way more than I pay a cleaning crew to actually do cleaning. And this wasn't even my decision. And plus, as you guys may already know this, your own team members are never going to do a good enough job of cleaning as someone that professionally does it. But I just use that as an example because a lot of people can make pretty smart, intelligent decisions and other things that you think are, oh, yeah, we're going to cut costs here. It's. That's really not where I want the focus of my team. It's to be on, you know, cleaning. And I was in my office over the last, you know, couple of days yesterday till late at night. You know, no one's there. So it's. It's almost like a, you know, quarantine place. I might. My office building and, you know, just looking at things are not clean. This is ridiculous. I mean, like, it's. So I'm going to bring back the cleaning crew and tell my team, if you, if you want to make cuts, let's really think this through. And that's, you know, that's. I don't know if that's a useful example, but there's. There's a lot of ways that we can make intelligent, smart decisions and others where we have to really think of too.

And I.

And it just reminded me of that when you told the bowling alley owners having to maintain the equipment. Yeah, you just can't have things. There are certain things that need to be done. It's going to be worse.

So.

Okay.

You know, one of the things is, and I've seen this happen in 2008, you know, be careful who you step on when they're down because you might need them when things get better. And there might be a way to do a win win. You know, I had a very wealthy friend who was taking pride in going to his landscaper and making him, you know, paying him less during 2008 because he could, you know, so you can make it a win win. Let's say you had a cleaning crew that you thought was going to be around and they were struggling with money. You could Go to them and say, I'll tell you what, I'll prepay the next 12 months at a 30% discount so you get the cash today. They're thrilled because you may have helped save their business and you still got a 30% reduction of your next 12 months. So be creative and also think about the human, the relationship aspect, because if you step on people when they're down, they're not going to help you when you're down, and they're not going to help you when this thing gets better.

Yeah, great advice. One of the other elements here is information is going to be important. Many entrepreneurs don't pay enough attention to their numbers and the information that's available to them to make a wise decision. This is really the time that you want to engage your internal or external record keepers to make sure that you're up to date, that you are in touch with what numbers are coming in, what numbers, what dollars are going out. And the brain trust that many, many entrepreneurs have can be incredibly important. And I would, I would recommend. And there's some entrepreneurs that like to silo the use of their advisors and will only talk to them one at a time. This is the time to get everybody at the table at the same time on a conference call and talk about group problem solving with these people that you found valuable in the past. Get them together, get them talking about what's going on. I was on a phone call with a physician that had radiology clinics on Tuesday, and we were talking about these tax relief provisions. We were talking about the SBA loans, We were talking about operational concerns, human resources concerns. And in an hour phone call, a lot was done with everyone at the table at the same time. So I'd encourage this collaboration with advisors of entrepreneurs because together they can come up with conclusions and directions that you might not get when you're individually working with the individual advisor.

Yeah, virtual family office structure I believe in for sure. Yeah.

I was just going to say this is very similar to what I'm attempting.

To do right now.

The three of us just having conversations and sharing it with our, you know, with our network. And of course, one of the things with Genius Network, I've always said, is you want to have a sounding board of very smart advisors. I always think of a Genius network is not just my company in this group that I have, and it's really a genius network is if you have any problem or issue, who do you know? Or if you could have a person with these particular skills or capabilities together, that's how you could. That's what real collaboration actually is. So. Yeah, totally agree.

Can we talk for a minute about a couple of the other programs that might be available to entrepreneurs?

Yeah, absolutely. Can we?

Why don't we.

Do you want to.

Do you want to finish the COVID.

You know, I can swiftly. Or do you want to do that and go along? I'm okay either way. What do you think, Tony?

Well, let's talk about the two. Let's talk about two or three other programs that are out there and then. Sure. Yeah, yeah, yeah. For those of you that need immediate money, there is the ability through the SBA to get something called an emergency injury disaster grant. And it's not that much money, but you could immediately ask for $10,000 that could be provided to you within three days of applying. I believe, Jim, that that's directly through the sba. You can go online and apply for that online and it's a one page application to get that immediate $10,000 grant.

Right.

There's also an Eidl. There's also an Eidl loan, which is different than the Payroll Protection loan, where you can get up to $2 million. It is not a forgivable loan, but there is the ability to get up to $2 million through this EIDL loan facility. It may not permit you to do the forgiveness, I think, Jim, but it is an alternate to that Payroll Protection loan.

And can I ask, can you guys get me links to all of this too? And I do want to put it together if. I know, I'm asking you to. You're already volunteering your time here to do work, but if you could provide me with any of that, that would be great. And also I would, at the end of this, I want you guys to share how people, if they want to work directly with either one of you, I mean, I think right now some people would be very well served too, if you're available to help in some areas. Okay, keep going.

Yeah, a couple other provisions and this one, again, some of these, if you're getting relief in another way or a loan in another area, you can't double dip. But there is a credit against payroll taxes. It's up to 50% of wages paid to each employee, up to a maximum of 10,000 of wages per person. Now, to qualify for that, that's a harder one. To qualify for, you either have to have operations partially or fully suspended due to government required suspension of operations, which, you know, if you're a restaurant, that's already happened in most parts of the country. So if you have operations either to a state or federal government saying you can't actually run your company, or if you have a quarter with less than 50% of revenue, not profit, 50% drop in revenue from the same quarter of 2019, you can get this credit against payroll taxes. You get it one quarter at a time until either the end of 2020, or when the suspended operations from the government resume for a full quarter, or when your revenue gets above 80% of the same calendar year quarter in 2019, a more likely opportunity is the deferral of the payment of payroll taxes. And that's, you know, I think, Tony, you may jump in, but I think that's pretty much all employers can defer payroll taxes for 2020, 50% of the payroll taxes owed until December 31st of 2021 and the other 50% until December 31st of 2022. It also works for self employed individuals. It's only on the employer portion, that 6.2%. But that's also another great way to conserve cash is to delay making those payroll tax payments.

Yes, absolutely. I was also going to say that there is the ability to delay your income taxes or the filing of those taxes until July, July 15th. Now, there was some confusion because the initial IRS take was that if you owed more than a million dollars, you weren't going to get that relief. And then in a subsequent notice they said anybody. So any corporation, even if you owed $30 million in taxes, can delay paying those taxes until July 15th. And that's applicable in most states as well.

That's really good, Tony. And one other thing that I think we should mention from the tax the CARES act that was just passed is net operating losses. So under the Tax Cuts and jobs act of 2017, you can only carry those forward. But under the new CARES act that was passed just two days ago, you can actually carry those back up to five years. It applies for 2018, 2019 and 2020 tax years. So it can accelerate a tax refund for current and immediate use. So even if this is the first year you've made money all the past years, this is the first year you're going to lose money keeping track of those net operating losses to use in 2021 when you file your 2020 taxes. To get cash in the form of a refund would be really important. And I don't know if you want to add anything to that piece, Tony.

Well, I'm just going to say that we're going to be serving our, our, our taxpayers and anyone that had a loss in 2018, even though they haven't filed their 2019 tax returns, we're going to be filing amended tax returns to get that money back for our clients. That's going to be an opportunity to get cash back for our clients.

Yeah, I love that. And just some planning things you could do along the net operating losses this year if you have cash, but you know that your company is going to.

Have a loss this year.

You could do some things like you could buy equipment, machinery, and you know, anything that really qualifies for the bonus depreciation under the Tax Cuts and Jobs Act. If you do that this year, you could deduct 100%. It could add to your net operating loss. You could also, you know, acquire developed real estate. And you can do things like cost segregation studies to increase or accelerate the depreciation and to increase the net operating loss for 2020. Then in 2021, when you file your 2020 tax return, you can go back to prior years and get a refund.

I'm going to suggest an approach for everybody with this new law and all these new rules and benefits. I have always read a law from the top down and really I realized that you really almost need to read these rules from the bottom up because oftentimes the of what things are and who qualifies are at the bottom of the law or the last thing that's covered in the summaries. And really what you want to do is start with understanding the definitions and.

How you apply to the definitions.

We're going to be creating some spreadsheets and decision trees, looking at these laws from the bottom up so that we can say, okay, what do we have to establish? Do we have an uncertain future? How many employees do we have? What's the rolling average of the employees payroll costs, what programs are available? Put them on a spreadsheet and fill in all the blanks for all the different programs. Then you can see which the programs may apply to you and which of the programs would be most beneficial to you. For example, the 50% of qualified wages credit up to $10,000 might be, might be a better option than using an Eidl loan or going for the payroll protection plan. But the only way you can do that is by analyzing what all your choices are and look at these laws from the bottom up.

Very good.

You guys mentioned burn rate when you're talking about the first thing related to cash. This is maybe going to be a super basic question, but how would a business owner, what steps should they, how.

Would they go about if you have.

To sit down with a. With a business owner who's never really kind of figured that out before and said, okay, let's figure out your burn rate, explain what that actually means. I mean, I'm asking a question that I. That I know the answer to. I just want to ask you guys, how does one figure out what all of this is costing? How do they get a snapshot of where they're at right now?

I think the first thing you need to do is in the new reality of how your business is going to function going forward. Forward after you cut employees or after you get some of these other, you know, cash injections from places like the sba, you want to think about moving forward. When your company. What it's going to look like today for the next six to 12 months, at least, how much cash are you going to need in that environment, both from a reduction of expenses and from a reduction of revenue? And how much of those resources are you going to use up on a monthly basis? That would be your burn rate. And then that also kind of gives you your Runway. How long do you have to turn this thing around if you are burning through cash on a monthly basis? Yeah, and I just want.

Yeah, I just. You know, it's real easy to just. If you do some initial thinking and you do some planning here, you can. I mean, there's a lot of people. I would like to think this would save them from literally losing it all if they just do some of the things that you guys are recommending.

It's also, Joe, going to confront you with something that most of us don't confront, which is what is the right size of your company? We talked about having the right players. We talked about having the right expenses. Many entrepreneurs continue to spend what they spend because it's easy, and now things aren't easy. The first pass that you take on making this analysis may not be perfect, but our friend Michael Bernoff has what I call the rule of shitty. And the first time you do anything, you're likely to do it shitty. But. But this is something that you start, even though you may be confused initially, get it down on paper and then look at it again. Let it sit for a day, and then look at it again, and you'll. You'll refine it and it'll be better. Don't be afraid not to be. Don't be afraid to be not perfect, because there's no way we can be Perfect. Now, on March 29, about things that are going to be happening a month, two Months, six months, a year from now.

But, yeah, can I just say one thing about how to think about this? And, you know, it reminds me of the famous quote from Viktor Frankl who wrote Man's Search for Meaning meaning, which, if you haven't read it's a phenomenal book about a guy who survived Auschwitz. And he said one of his famous quotes is, in between stimulus and response, there is a space. In that space, you have a choice, and in that choice lies your freedom and your growth. So I think pausing to, as you say, Joe, respond and not react. And the other piece is know your weaknesses, know who you are, and if you're not a numbers person, connect with someone in Genius Network or connect with one of your advisors, you should have an advisory team with someone who, who's good at numbers and say, here's the way I need. I need the numbers. In a way I can think about it, make good decisions and work with them to help them get you the numbers that matter in a way that you can make good decisions. Don't just go, I'm not good at numbers. I'm just not going to pay attention or turn it over to someone who's good at numbers, who doesn't have your ability to run the business. As an entrepreneur, you want to really think about having those people working together with you so you can make great decisions.

Yeah, totally. Totally. You know, in the, in the document you know about Cash is, it's, it's actually called Cash is Still the King. I'm going to try. So, Keith Cunningham, this is on geniusnetwork insights.com you know, he always puts things on a bumper sticker. He says, you know, focus on the problem you can solve. And there's one part of the document where he said, years ago, I heard a very smart man say, how you run your business during the good times dictates how well you survive in the bad times. And he said, perhaps Warren Buffett said it best. The bad economy does not cause businesses to go broke, but it does expose the weak ones. And, and what you said, Tony, about, you know, it's. This is really a time to take a look and reflect and say, okay, how am I actually running my company? What sort of, you know, delusions am I operating under? Where am I making good decisions? Where am I making poor decisions? And more than anything, when you're put in a situation like this, you are, you know, in many ways forced to figure it out or you may absolutely lose it. So.

And Joe, this might be a time for entrepreneurs to look at Some of these entrepreneurial. Well, we use eos, as I know you do, Joe, to help us run our business. There's other programs besides eos, that's Gino Wickman's program to help get a view of your business and how to take advantage of. Of all this wisdom that's out there to help you operate your business better.

Yes, absolutely. Absolutely. Well, you know, Jason, answering a lot of the questions I did have, but. Yeah, go ahead, Jim.

I was just gonna say a couple other provisions of the CARES act and then I can finish up the COVID that might be helpful. And these aren't big ones, but every little bit helps. So one thing is, and you may have kids who have student loans. And in the CARES act, payments for student loans have been suspended till September 30 with no interest accrued. So tell your kids, if your kid has a student loan, quit making the payments. But I wouldn't say quit making the payments. Call your loan provider and tell them you want to stop making payments. This doesn't happen automatically. So to conserve cash, especially for your kids who may be struggling, who have student loans, have them call their loan provider and tell them, I don't want to pay any more until I have to, because you have a break till September 30. The other thing is to get money. In the CARES act, there's a provision where even if you're under 59 and a half, you can get money out of your IRA or your 401k, your plan at work, up to $100,000. If your business has been dramatically impacted by the COVID 19, that 100,000 you can get out to use today. No 10% pre 59 and a half penalty. You will owe taxes, but you can spread those over the next three years. And if you end up turning things around, you can put it back in over the next three years. So that's a way to get access to 100 grand. Sometimes that can make the difference between survival and failure. And think about the student loan stopping that student loan payments.

And those of us that are incredibly productive over 70 year olds, they are not required to take their required minimum distributions in 2020 from their 401k or their IRAs. And just for those of us that are older folks, that could be meaningful because especially with the market being down, you don't necessarily want to invade those funds if you don't have to and book those losses that may not be there a year from now.

Very true.

Yeah, Great.

Well, yeah, Jim, so go ahead, continue with COVID Yeah, so the, the O.

Was outgoing, we covered that. So cash outgoing. And then V is variable versus fixed. So have a good idea. What are your variable costs?

What are your fixed costs?

So variable costs are costs that can move up or down. You can kind of choose how much to spend on those things. Things like marketing and advertising. Fixed costs are like your lease or your mortgage or payroll. Although we know that you can adjust payroll. A lot of people are adjusting payroll today. Be aware of those and be careful because it's easy and tempting to cut variable costs completely out. But things like marketing and advertising, if you do them in a smart, intelligent way and you do them when your competitors are not doing them, then you can actually increase revenue during this time, which is hugely important to a business. That is the V I in Covid is incoming. What's incoming? What revenues can you count on? And the same way when you're exiting or selling your business, a buyer puts more value on recurring revenue than one time revenue. You're going to find that recurring revenue actually holds up better during these times than one time revenue for your business as well. So categorize what's incoming, that's recurring, what's incoming, that's one time. And then how can you increase revenue? A lot of times it's easy just to focus on cutting costs, but how can you increase revenue? So if you have customers or clients who don't have a lot of money, offer them some benefits for a low pay product or a no pay product that they get into, or service that they get into today for no pay, but they're going to owe you later down the line or a low pay. So a break in some way. If your customers or your clients are doing very well, how about a prepay? Give them a discount by prepaying everything up front to get money into your company. And then think of other streams of way to get ways to get revenue other than what you've done in the past. Because there may be other ways you can get streams of revenue for the incoming. And then finally D on Covid is decisiveness. And I remember a movie that I loved very much was it was Dancing with Wolves with Kevin Costner and he played Lieutenant Dunbar and he was out on this post, way out on the territory during, you know, just post Civil war kind of times in the, in the west. And he's on this post and he's getting harassed by the Sioux Indians and he's just sitting there like a sitting duck. And one morning he gets up and he just goes, I'm Done with this. And he puts on his uniform, he gets on the horse, he gets his flag, the American flag that had a lot fewer stars on it at the time. And he goes to the Sioux Indians. And I think we need to think about. It's easy to hide under your desk or to lean back. You need to lean in. You need to lean into the problems. You need to lean into cutting costs. You need to lean into how you can save your business. And you also also have to lean into what can you do so that you do great. When we get through this, how your business can explode. Because a lot of my richest clients got rich because of times like 2000 to 2002 and 2008. And that's what I would say on the decisiveness and also to drive your company. When it comes to decisiveness, it's really important to have a purpose that drives you. Because we're all working like crazy. We're all exhausted, we're all overwhelmed. If you have a purpose that can pull you through this and your purpose can, like, for me, it's my entrepreneurs that we work with. I get up every morning, I think, whose business am I going to help save? Whose business am I going to help? That they're going to become very wealthy because of the decisions we make. But it may be your family. Is your purpose protecting your family? Is it your employees? Your purpose is to protect your employees so they keep their jobs. Is your purpose so that you can help a charity or help, you know, genius recovery? Is it for future life experiences where you can paint a vision for yourself that you're like, that's my purpose, you know, that's what I want to get through this so that I can enjoy those things. That all comes under decisiveness.

I might also add, this is the time to ask your customers and your clients, what do they need? You don't want to imagine what you could be doing for them as much as you want to actually ask them what is it that they need. And because you not only can supply stuff that you might not have thought you could supply, but you through your network, like genius network, and the people you know can refer them to people that know what they're doing and can actually make an impact on your client's business that you may not know unless you ask that question.

Yeah, no, you're absolutely right. You're absolutely right. I mean, hence, that's even part of us sitting here talking today has a lot to do with just asking my clients this question, Tony, is what? What do they actually want?

What do they need.

And I mean, what you guys are providing here is a perfect example of that. So thank you. So, Jim, go ahead and just. If you could repeat all of the COVID so that everyone has it, and we'll move on a couple of other questions, then we'll. Absolutely.

So Covid.

C is for cash, O is for.

Outgoing, V is for variable versus fixed, I is for I is for incoming, and D is for decisiveness. That's Covid. Yeah.

Awesome. How long did it take you to come up with it?

You know Keith Cunningham?

No, it's.

It's the thinking time. It's the deep work like Cal Newport or the thinking time like Keith Cunningham. And I find this stuff comes to me when I do my thinking time. So in the morning, I journal, I meditate, and then I try to do thinking time for deep work. Either way, you want to think about it. And two days ago, as I'm getting more and more requests to be on podcasts and talk to groups, I was trying to think, how can I create an acronym for the way people entrepreneurs need to think about surviving through this? And then I just. Covid kind of came to me in that moment of being open and creative, which I think is a good lesson for everyone on the call. You need to have some time for quiet reflection, because what happens when you're overwhelmed is the amygdala takes over, the brain focuses and narrows, and then we don't think outside of our narrow vision. And to survive and actually to be in a position to really do very well in the future, you need to be creative, and that's to segregate some time by yourself. And it's even harder now, right, with everyone, with families, home in the house. But get some quiet time so that you can be creative. And when you're more creative, you'll come up with ideas that will serve you better.

Can I do a little commercial for you, Joe?

I would not object to that in the least.

One of the things that I reflected on is that, what was it, four years ago, after knowing you for maybe 10 years before that, I decided to become a member of Genius Network. And for me, $25,000 is not insubstantial. And when I reflect back on four years and the ability to be able to have relationships with people like Jim do, to be able to have lunch with Keith Cunningham and all the benefits that I've got that have nothing to do with marketing in being in a valuable group of people like this has paid me dividends beyond description. And so for everyone that's listening there. And if it's not Joe's group, there's other great groups out there as well. This is the time when you talk about leaning into things. This is the time to engage with smart people that are doing smart things. And that's going to give you the courage and the persistence to get through all of this.

And you know what? I want to jump in there, too. And I don't want this to be a fan club, mutual admiration thing. But I do think in this, these trying times, you think about who's been important in your life. And I know, Joe, you've talked about the first domino, and you've been the first domino for so many things in my life and in Mimi's life, friendships, personal things, business things. And I want to thank you for that. And I think that that's kind of a key for everyone on the call is really being open to groups like Genius Network and other groups and your network, because you never know who's going to be the first domino. And in fact, you know, Joe, you and I have been friends for more than 20 years. Just a couple days ago, I was going through some notes, and I found some notes on a meeting we had in 1999. So that shows you how far back, you know, we go together. But you were the first domino in so many things. I really appreciate that about you. And that's why when I look at cutting costs in all these different areas, access to networks like Genus Network are one of the last things I would cut if I had to to survive. Because I know that's the key, not only to all these benefits I've had in the past, but the key to my future success is being around people like Joe and Tony and all the other people I've met through such a great network.

Thank you guys very much. Thank you both. And I mean, what I will say to that is, I'd love to see those notes from 1999. That's pretty cool. And secondly, I mean, what we're doing right now is a function of relationships. And when things are. You've often heard, you know, time is money. And the fact is, relationships is where money and opportunities and strategy and tactics and what to do and how to do it come from. And everyone's going to have stages in their business where they're confident and things are working well and they feel on top of the world and they're energetic and others where you're, you know, desperate and scared and frightened. And it's. It really is good. You know, it's not. You join a group when things are going well and you want to maximize and accelerate it. You actually do this because in many cases, it's what. It's business survival. And what do you do in the worst of times? I mean, right now, it's very interesting to see the communication to me, and you guys already know how much I put myself out there to meet different people and seek out the best advice and wisdom. And I'm just naturally a super curious person. And then all the work that I do in the field of addiction recovery, right now, my communications have more than tripled. I mean, it's. I'm. It's so much information overload right now that I can't even tell you. And it's interesting to see the people that are who I would consider really good friends and ones that are opportunists that now I'm hearing from them, trying to act like, hey, Joe, how you doing?

But.

But they're really looking for something else. And it's just such a. Such an interesting thing to witness, you know, human behavior and look at how my own responses to things are versus reaction. And you said it earlier, Jim. You know, I mean, I'm hoping that people listening to this, this will give you the ability to respond versus react, because if you don't know what to do, there's this. This book written years ago by Anthony Greenback. And I've said this quote a million times. It's. It's called the Book of Survival. And he says, in order to get through an impossible situation, you don't need the reflexes of a Grand Prix driver, the muscles of a Hercules, or the mind of an Einstein. You simply need to know what to do. And when someone feels like, oh, my God, I'm in an impossible situation right now, well, you know, they may have heard something from either one of you or both of you today on this conversation that said, oh, okay, now I know what to do. And before, you know, an hour ago, I didn't know that. And that's what I would consider a first domino. That's what I consider comes out of having a genius network. And I believe any problem in the world can be solved with the right genius network. So even if someone's not part of my genius network, I would highly encourage you to find the people that have the skills and capabilities in order to do that. So before we wrap up, a couple things I wanted to ask both of you. What didn't we cover here that we need to share? And then I'd like to have you describe some people would love to have help from either one of you if you're even available at how that would look. And I know that they could read your books too. I mean I would highly encourage that. And I will put links on the show notes here so you can read Jim's or Tony's books. And some of them aren't just about money and business. They're things I think you'll just find very, very valuable. But what didn't I ask you about it? What did we cover that would be helpful for us to share before we wrap up?

I would just say when you think about opportunities, because we covered a lot also don't just get stuck in thinking about how bad things could get, but also think about how good things could get from the perspective of what could you do now as far as investing and whether it's stocks or whether it's real estate. I think keeping your eye on what can I do so that I don't get depressed because values are depressed. They're actually opportunity and that could be reallocating portfolios that could be realizing gains from. Let's say you've been 1031 ing a property over and over and you feel like you're over concentrating real estate. It might be an opportunity to sell some real estate to, you know, not pay to pay taxes in a low tax year. So just think about opportunities and things that you could do with your cash flow with your business. From an investing perspective, I'd say we didn't really cover that, but I would think about that a little bit.

Yeah, I guess, you know, what's the question I had? Sorry, Tony, I'll just say this real quick. Let me go ahead. Yeah, you know, I had this question. The economy was doing pretty well the last few years. Is there anything in the new law that would help entrepreneurs get money back from taxes they paid in the past that really would be led to, you know, well, what, what opportunities in the future should one be thinking about right now that we may, you know, we may not be thinking of because I actually was what you just said. So is there any other elaboration you want to say in that, Jim? Because I can also say this is.

Going to be an ongoing thing.

I mean I'd love to, you know, have you guys do we do a follow up conversation as things change if need be and anything that needs to be added to the show. Notes for genius network insights as we go along. I mean by all means share it with me and I will share it with our network.

Yeah, I'll just mention one thing because I get a lot of questions on this about the stock market. And so the stock market is still down more than 20% from its high, even though it had a rebound this last week. And I think there's going to be opportunities in the stock market. But remember, the stock market is a leading indicator. So by the time things look good and calm, the rebounds already happened. So trying to wait, because I have entrepreneurs who have cash and they want to invest in things like the stock market. A couple mistakes they're making. One is they say, I'm just going to wait till everything kind of settles down and the COVID thing calms down and I'm comfortable by the time that happens, you're going to miss the opportunity. The other thing I would say about that is, if you're not an expert stock picker, don't pretend you're one today. So I get a lot of questions where entrepreneurs are saying, you know, hey, I think I'll buy American Airlines stock because it's got to come back, or Marriott Homes or Royal Caribbean. If you're not a great stock picker, if you've done that in the past, fine. But if you're not, don't think that you're going to be a great stock picker today. And there are a lot of uncertainties, and there's a reason why American Airlines.

Has been sold off.

So if you're going to buy into the stock market, you're better off, unless you've been picking stocks for a long time, buying a basket of stocks or an index. And the other thing is, don't let this distract you from running your business. I talked to an entrepreneur a couple of days ago, one of my clients, and he had bought $20,000 of American Airlines stock, I think it was. And he told me for about 10 minutes all about American Airlines stock. And when he finished, I said, how long have you been looking at this today? And he said, I don't know, maybe three or four hours. And I said, wait a second. You're running a $20 million a year company and you spent three or four hours worried about a $20,000 investment in American Airlines? Why don't you focus on your business? Make an extra 10%. That's $2 million a year versus worrying about the 20,000. And he caught himself and we just both laughed and he said, you're right, this is so stupid. So make sure you don't get focused on things that don't matter. Focus on your business. You want to invest in the stock market. I think there's opportunity today. It may not be the time to invest, but it's a time to invest and probably over the next three to six months. Real estate usually reacts slower downturn. So I'd be a little more patient if you're going to buy real estate. But I do think there'll be some opportunities in real estate as well.

And I was going to say a couple things. Number one, as you're going out there and trying to find money and take advantage of these programs, don't be surprised if your banker doesn't exactly know what to do.

Now.

The government hasn't issued guidelines to the institutions yet. That's going to be coming out in the next week or so. Give your banker a break. And if your banker seems unsympathetic to you, you might want to find other bankers that will be more sympathetic. It doesn't mean that you shouldn't prepare to do whatever you need to do to be able to submit applications so you can get all that stuff put together, whoever you deal with. The second thing is that rather than be frozen and Chicken Little and running around like a chicken with your head cut off, you want to do something. You want to do something now with the advice of your advisors and move and be decisive, as Jim suggests.

Awesome. Awesome.

Very helpful.

You know, this is also one thing too. You know, one of my books is called Life Gives to the Giver. And I finally, you know, I'm not released yet, and I finally decided, I put it up@josefreebook.com and people can just download the thing, not have to buy anything. They can just download the book and read it. And the title is Life Gives to the Giver. And I really believe there's a karmic thing about how you operate in, you know, there's a lot of things that are called success that I don't really consider success. And there's a lot of pursuit of status. And Dan Sullivan, our friend, says, you know, you could either be a growth, seek growth, or you can seek status. And when I look at all of the personal development people that their whole pitch is status, status, status, not growth. There's a different outcome right now. A lot of people are coming face to face with what is really important in life and what is just window dressing. And both of you are just, I know both of you personally. So I just want to say this to people listening. I mean, what's happening today is just a small piece of what if you could really witness Tony and Jim behind the scenes of everything that they're doing. I mean, even before the call, I was talking with Jim about like how busy he's been with just all just trying to help clients and everything. And Tony, not only the work Tony's been doing for years, but even volunteering on Genius Recovery, which I'm so grateful and appreciative of for you to do that. It's so amazing. I mean, even Tomorrow morning at 8am There's a genius Recovery board meeting because there's a lot of addicts that are out there struggling. So you guys are busy guys and you're doing a lot of stuff. And a lot of people that have listened to this would love to be like, you know, could I hire them or how would I work with them? What where could people either a, if they needed to work with you or your company do that or any other materials that you guys have written or you put out there that would be helpful to all of our listeners. I'd love for both of you to give out, you know, URLs or any sort of anything you think that would be helpful to follow through with what we've discussed today.

If someone wants to connect with me, they can connect with me@t rosejcpa.com t rosesjcpa.com and also my daughter and I are going to be updating our website at Beautiful Grief for those who are grieving. Any of you that have lost people to Covid and are going through a grieving process. We had a tragic loss in our family and our book Beautiful Grief has to do with coming to grips with that grief and how people are approaching it. And we'd love to hear from you on that on that website.

Thank you. Thank you, Jim.

So I made something available which is nine questions. It's a what we call the Make Rich Real Scorecard that will help you kind of evaluate where you are in different areas of wealth planning. It's a nine question scorecard. You can get that without getting email or anything. You can just get that as a download. If you go to makerichreal.com that's M A K E R I C-H-R E A L.com that will also allow you.

To either click to see a if.

You'Re if you qualify for a strategy call that we could do together or to get on my list of stuff that we're going to be sending out that would just keep people informed about different wealth strategies in addition to all this kind of stuff. That's one way if you have a question for me directly or you want to try to contact me directly? My email is jimowealth.com J I M@ D E W W E a l t h.com Like Joe said, I'm really busy. So depending on the depth of the question you ask or how you want to connect it maybe take a little while to get back to you. So probably the best way is go to make Rich real. That'll give you a download as well as access to either get on my list of ideas that I send out periodically or possibly be able to do a strategy call with me.

And let me mention this too, because I do want to share this not only with all Genius Network members who have obviously access directly with you guys, but also this may get shared with people at large. And I would like you to know that these guys have put a lot of work into understanding the things that have been shared today. I mean I'm a student here talking to these guys as much as just trying to record this, to share it with people to be helpful. And please don't send them just random emails with simple questions with no intention other than just picking their brains and you know, doing something that they've already laid out where you need to do some initial work. And I know everyone's going through some hard times right now. So the reason and that we all got together on a Sunday morning to record this in this way as we want to help entrepreneurs because that's the backbone of the economy and we want to be as helpful as humanly possible. I will put everything related to links that you guys provide me on the show notes with this recording. I'll put all the updates Genius Network Insights with an S Genius Network Insights in sighs. Com and there's lots of other resources there and anything that comes along the way, Jim and Tony, just please share with me and we will continue to update this. And I just want to say thank you. Thank you for taking the time and I really appreciate it and I'm sure we'll be doing another updated one here as we go along. And any other famous last words from.

Either one of you.

It's a labor of love to be able to do this for our community. The best thing that we can all do is get back to each other.

Awesome.

Yeah. And I would say I it's my pleasure too, Joe. I love serving entrepreneurs and I would just leave with one of my favorite quotes from CH from CS Lewis. Hardships often prepare ordinary people for an extraordinary destiny.

Wonderful, Wonderful.

Thank you both.

And we wish everyone the best and we will talk to you. Talk to you soon. So take good care of yourself. Take care.

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