Joe Polish Interviews Gabrielle Bernstein - Bonus Episode - I Love Marketing With Joe Polish And Dean Jackson

Hello, this is Joe Polish, president of Piranha Marketing and founder of the Genius Network interview series. And you're about to hear one of my Genius Network interviews. And I just want to thank you for taking the time to listen to this, and I hope you find it very useful. And if you want to find out more information about some of the interviews and resources that can help you in your business, you can go to www.joepolish.com. and we have a Joe Polish Recommends section with all kinds of resources and vendors and services and products that we recommend that could help you in your business. And also for more useful interviews and a whole list of other people that I've interviewed, you can go to www.gieniusnetwork.com. thanks and enjoy the interview.

Hello, this is Joe Polish, founder of the Genius Network and also creator of ilovemarketing.com and I have got a very special guest that I'm going to be asking some questions and talking with today. Her name is Gabrielle Bernstein. And I'm going to read a little bit out of the back of her new book, which is called Spirit Junkie, which I think you're going to want to read this book once you're done listening to her. Anyway, Gabrielle has been labeled by the New York Times as the next generation guru, a motivational speaker, life coach, and author expanding the lexicon for the seekers of today and tomorrow. She gives talks and leads seminars throughout the country, is on the Forbes list of the 20 best branded women, and has been featured in media outlets such as Oprah Radio, Marie Claire, Health, Self, cnn, NBC, cbs, Fox, and the Wall Street Journal. She is the author of Add More Ing to youo Life and can be seen riding around the East Village on a unicycle. Or you can find her online at Gabby G A B B Y B GabbyB TV so, Gabby, Gabrielle, how you doing?

I'm great, Joe. It's great to be with you here.

Yeah, you too. I'm going to call you Gabrielle and Gabby. I'm just going to go back and forth just to confuse the listeners, but we just had dinner in New York. Oh, gosh. What, almost a week ago?

Yeah, about a week ago.

Yeah. I think you're awesome. You're very bright. You have a unique way of communicating spirituality to the masses. And all in all, you're just a pretty cool human being. And I do want to mention one thing. I want to get a little bit more background on you, but this whole part about riding around East Village on a unicycle, how frequently does that happen.

Well, it's definitely something that can be seen on any given day. I live right across the street from Tompkins Square park, so I have a massive opportunity to cruise around the East Village. And you never know, you may spot me.

I don't know if I told you this. Me and you met each other through our mutual friend Shawn Stevenson. Little guy in the wheelchair. He's such an aw dude. And I do know how to ride a unicycle.

I'm not sure if you mentioned that, but I'm not surprised at all. No, no.

I mean there's even a video.

There's like a carny in you for sure.

I did learn how to ride a unicycle and there's a video of me on YouTube at the YouTube headquarters with Tim Ferriss and I'm riding a unicycle. So that really does exist. People can find. Anyway, now what I want to talk to you about today is several things, mostly about your new book Spirit Junkie. It's got a pre titled Radical Road to Self, Love and Miracles and the forewords by Marianne Williamson. And I want to talk to you a little bit about just putting yourself out there because not only are you really great at communicating, I think important, powerful messages for seekers and people in the personal development, but you're also, you understand, marketing and I really respect and appreciate great marketers and so first thing I would kind of just ask you is who really is who is Gabrielle Bernstein? I mean you have quite a checkered past.

Yeah, well today I am much different than the woman I was six years ago. But the woman I am today is a teacher and a student at all times. Someone who is always learning and growing and perceiving my life experiences as an opportunity to strengthen what I teach and what I stand for. And I perceive myself today as a mentor and a guide to many and through my own personal experiences of overcoming all different kind of life struggles, whether it be recovering from addiction such as drug addiction or love addiction or work addiction, you name it, I've been working through it. As a result of recovering from my own personal experiences of fear and fear based belief systems, I can live to tell the story today of how to do the same. So today I am a student and a teacher of a metaphysical text called A Course in Miracles which for me was the spiritual belief system that helped me restore my thoughts back to a more peaceful, loving perspective and a powerful perspective. And so today I am a messenger for those tools. But to your point, as you mentioned earlier, really expanding this lexicon this spiritual lexicon in a very hip, relevant, easy way to digest for a new generation, but also for the masses. For anyone who's ready for personal development and change, I'm here to translate and interpret these principles in a really groovy way.

Yeah, you know, and I mean, when we went to dinner, also a few of my friends showed up. Few of your friends? Our good friend Marie Folio, who I also look at as someone who's just a really cool, functional human being, but is also cool. You know, I mean, there's one thing about people perceiving things as touchy feely, but just the weirdness factor to it. Then there's another where you can actually present it and deliver it in a way to where people are like, yeah, this makes a lot of sense. And when you hear the term, like, touchy feely to describe. I don't know if anyone describes you as touchy feely, but what does that sort of kind of mean to you? I mean, how would you kind of explain the way you present yourself? Because I want people to really get to know you, who you are.

Yeah. So when you say touchy feely, do you mean with regard to just sort of teaching New Age stuff, or do you mean just in general as a person?

No, no, I think teaching New Age stuff because I think in general as a person, you're pretty affectionate, kind, and so I would consider myself that way too. So I would hope.

Right. I mean, I think that people can often, you know, in the past, New Age philosophies have sort of been cornered for a specific market of people who are really eager and hungry for that. Whereas today I see this message really broadcasting across all platforms and all demographics. Because people in all forms today are looking for a better way because we as a country and as a culture have really hit a big bottom, whether it be financially or given the circumstances of what's going on with the weather and the natural disasters that we've been dealing with. We've been overcoming a lot and have really no other option but to look for a better solution for how we perceive our experiences. And so what years ago may have been perceived as sort of touchy feely or New Agey or separate today has now become extremely welcomed in the media. And I, as a teacher, have really stepped into that position of saying, yeah, let me bring this message to CNN or Fox and Friends, or let me bring this message to the masses through the Internet and using Twitter and Facebook and all these different tools to really make this message relevant and easy to Digest because the world is ready. So that old perception of how new age stuff might have been a little touchy feely. I think it's gone. I mean, I think it's going, I think it's shifting. I know this to be true based on the core adopter to my work is not necessarily your typical person who you'd find in a yoga studio or sitting there on a meditation pillow. It's a mass market audience that is open and ready and new to this. So for me and people like Marie, I think to your point, a big part of what we do as teachers is bring the cool factor because we are cool girls. We've got a really neat life, we've really got a lot of fun interests and we've got fun personalities and we bring that fun energy to the messaging and that's imperative.

Awesome. Thank you. All right, well, so what I want to mention something on the very beginning of your book, there's a foreword by Marianne Williamson. And then it starts out and it says from you, for more than 20 years, I kept a journal. In it I wrote about heartbreak, anxiety and eating disorders. I wrote about trying to quit drugs while high on drugs. Pages and pages are filled with self loathing, self doubt and a running calorie count. I wrote the same romantic mini drama with dozens of different names attached. My journal entries were my only outlet for the turmoil and deep rooted pain I lived with every hour of every day. Through writing, I'd release my fears onto the pages and I'd get honest about my sadness as I scribbled over my tears. And then today, my journal entries are much different and they reflect an empowered woman who is happy and bleeds authenticity, you know, on and on. And that really struck me because, you know, I've done quite a few interviews with psychologists and psychiatrists and, and very smart, driven people and people that have overcome huge obstacles. And just this weekend I spent, I mean today, today's a Sunday and I just got done with a men's group all based around addiction. And I have in my own life, you know, I've talked about it publicly a little bit. You know, When I was 18 years old, in my worst possible state, I weighed 105 pounds from freebasing cocaine for three months straight. In my adult life, I've experienced all kinds of behavioral addictions in the area of, you know, obsessive work, sex, Internet, I mean, you name it, and exercise, like all kinds of just this drivenness. And you do a really fantastic job in your first book, ing and add more ing to your life and then spirit junkie, kind of just revealing things about yourself in order for people to know that you can overcome addictions and you can live with them and manage them and you can get to a. You can transform. And so I wanted to kind of talk about that because I have a unique interest in helping bring positive, useful messages to people that not only suffer from unhappiness and various forms of anxiety, but people that really live with out of control addictions and feel totally hopeless. So I wanted to kind of set this up for people that don't know that about you and have you talk a little bit about it.

Yeah, yeah. So the recovery from addiction can come in any form. We all in some way are addicted, whether we're addicted to food or drugs or love or work or the Internet, or sometimes just addicted to fear based thoughts. And the addiction to the negative form is often just a reflection of our spiritual bankruptcy. And so what I teach throughout this book, every lesson, every story, every anecdote, brings the reader back to a place of really connecting to their true source, their true source of peace, their true source of happiness. And what I teach in this book, but also in all of my lectures and all of my books and all of my audio and video and blogs and blogs, every message that comes through me is not necessarily about finding happiness and seeking happiness outside of ourselves, but releasing the blocks to the presence of peace and happiness within us. And so, as a recovering addict and a recovering fear junkie and a recovering crazy person, right, someone who is living in a very delusional way, I've learned that the primary message here is that we can't find anything that we're looking. We can't find that peace, we can't find that happiness outside of ourselves. We have to take the necessary steps to turn inward and reconnect the peace that lives within each of us that only we can understand and establish a relationship to that of our own understanding through the spiritual principles that I teach and many others and yourself that we all offer to the world. So by taking these tools and even practicing a fraction of the principles of what people like yourself and myself teach, really, you can begin to see those shifts. And it's all about turning in work. It's all about releasing the attachment to some outside thing to support us and fill us up. And what I talk about throughout the book is that as a devotee of these principles and really showing up daily to this inner work, I finally felt full, finally felt complete. In that completeness, I can extend that completeness out to the world. And so that's the gig, right? It's like, you know, clean up your side of the street, clean up your internal condition, then you can be a real, true, authentic channel and vehicle and vessel to extend that message outward.

Yeah, totally. I agree completely. Now you just said, and you also say that in your book, that Spirit Junkie is not a book about how to get happiness. Rather, it's a guide to releasing the blocks to the happiness that already lives inside you. What does that mean? I mean, I could see some people out there saying, you know, I don't have any happiness inside me. I am just filled with depression and angst and, you know, and I'd love to release the blocks to the happiness, but I don't think I got any in me. I mean, you know, from the darkest type of thinking, what would you say to that?

Well, if someone's listening now and they have that feeling of, well, I don't believe that there's any happiness in me, then I would ask that person, well, how did you get to this call? Because each of us has a mustard seed of hope and a mustard seed of happiness that sparks within us. And I call that voice of love our ing, our inner guidance system. And that loving voice is the voice that leads you to the self help book session of the bookstore and lets the book fall off the shelf. Right. Or that inner voice is the voice that. That guides you to that friend that is going to be so transformational for you, whether you realize it or not, or guides you to a phone call like this to listen to an interview like this. And so if you're listening and you've gotten here, then you have to really surrender to the fact that that voice is present in your life and is guiding you. And so what I teach is that all you need is the slightest willingness to hear that voice and to welcome that voice in and to really be passive and allow that voice to be your guide. And so when we slow down enough, whether it's through prayer or setting an intention or just having the slightest desire to change, that's when that voice of love, that's when that presence of peace can step in and can say, listen to that interview with Joe Polish. No, seriously.

No, I agree.

Or go watch that video on the Internet. So many people, I can't even begin to tell you how hundreds of people have emailed me, tweeted to me, said, you, book fell off the shelf right when I was ready. I know that there's a lot of angels flying around knocking books off the shelf. Because when people are ready, when the student is ready, the teacher will appear. So even if you don't feel like you have happiness flowing naturally, but you have that slight recognition part of you that remembers that it's there, that's all you need, is that part of you that remembers.

I do my best to remind people that when they're in areas of struggle and they feel like they're just not where they want to be, but they're in a room, like at a 12 step meeting, or they're taking some sort of action that, like you just said, they stumbled upon listening to us talk, or they found your book, or any book for that matter, that there's a reason that that exists is they're trying and they're seeking. And if you can really put a magnifying glass on that motivation, no matter how tiny of a little bit it may even seem at times, there is a seed there. And if you nurture it and grow it, then you actually can get to where you need to be. You talk about your dark struggles in relationships and with your drug addiction and just the things that happened in your life as they were your greatest teachers. And I believe that things that don't work in life are the things that are the biggest opportunities to transform them into something greater. And I'd love to get your perspective on that. When people are in just bad places or things aren't working out for them and they don't feel hopeful that there is a teacher that is present if you do something with it.

Yeah, absolutely. Well, I believe that the world is our classroom and people are our assignments. And that every day we wake up, we have new opportunities to learn and grow. And we also can choose otherwise. We can choose fear, and we can choose to ignore that growth opportunity. But when we start to welcome up that opportunity to grow, we are given the necessary tools to do that work. And we are guided to the necessary teachers and. And we are guided to deepen that inner presence within us that listens to that inner guidance system. And so this is the case for me. I denied that voice for many years. For many years I was living in such an outside way of looking for all of that peace and all of that learning and all of that happiness outside of myself and my credentials and my shoes and my boyfriends and all of the outside stuff. And I had to do that to go as far out as I went to hit my bottom and surrender to the fact that that wasn't the way. So anyone can hit their own bottom in any form it doesn't have to be a high bottom or a low bottom. It's just the moment when you look at your life and you say, this isn't working. There's got to be a better way than this. And that's all you need to just crack open. That's it. That's enough. Sometimes it's a low bottom. Sometimes it's just, this isn't working has got to be more.

Yeah. And that's always interesting. Do you believe that some people do not need to be dragged through the, you know, just the worst of the worst bottoms in order to get to a point where they're like, you know, in the area of addiction and stuff that, oh, we're going to make a change.

Yeah. No, I mean, I think that someone's bottom of, you know, being a drug addict, you know, freebasing coke. Right. That kind of bottom is sometimes equally as significant as someone's bottom where they just don't feel like they're good enough. Right. It's kind of all the same thing. It's just manifesting in different forms. And so it's just. But at times, it can be equally as traumatic. And so, you know, for me, I had to sort of go to that dark place. I had to go that low. Sounds like for you, that was a similar experience. I also see all of my life's experiences as divinely guided. I mean, as a result of having that recovery experience and having experienced taking myself through the necessary steps of really recovering and continuously being in recovery of addiction, I can be an authentic teacher to addicts today. I can really be an authentic teacher. And I can't tell you how many people have gotten sober just by hearing that. That's my story. So I recognize my truth in that. Whereas many women, many men and women who've experienced terrible traumas have used those traumas as the catalyst to create change, the catalyst to be a messenger for those recovering from those same traumas. So whatever we have been dealt, whatever cards we have been dealt, we have to look at those experiences and say, just as our friend Sean has the best, most powerful example of this, how is your pain going to be your purpose? I love Sean's story, which he shares often, about how he's on the floor and he had a break, and his mom looks at him and says, is this going to be your pain or is this going to be your purpose? And obviously, we know what Shawn did. Yeah.

For those people that don't know Shawn Stevenson, he's three feet tall, he's been in A wheelchair his whole life. He has a bone condition with brittle bones. The guy had over 200 breaks in his body before he was 18 years old. And just has really, by comparison to most people, has encountered enormous amounts of suffering. But what he did was he. He transformed and he learned how to, you know, he learned how to take the pain and find the meaning in it. And now he is an inspiration to definitely myself and to many other people. I did a fantastic interview with him that is one of the highest rated genius network interviews that I ever did. And it's interesting because when someone has enormous pain in their life and they're able to transform it, that is. There's magic in that. And that's what's so cool about talking with you, because I know in your own way, in your own life, you've done the same thing. And now you're wanting to share that with other people, which I think is great. And you do that in a very unique way that many people don't, which is that's where the coolness factor comes in. Now, you talk a lot about tools, and I wanted to kind of get, kind of go through Gabby's list of tools and resources that you discovered along the way, and you can bounce back and forth from your past, your current as much as you want. I just would like the listeners to get some perspective because the Course in Miracles is what you really write about in Spirit junkie, but also 12 step programs and things along those lines. So I'd love to have you share a little bit about.

The influence of my work has definitely come primarily from A Course in miracles from 12 step work, from Buddhism, from the interpretation of A Course in Miracles from my teacher and mentor, Marianne Williamson. So even though it's coming from the course, much of what I know from the course originally came from Marianne's translation of the course really opened that door for me, and that's how I today can translate myself, which is having that door opened in that way. And teachers like Dr. Wayne Dyer and working with affirmations with people like Louise Hay, Cheryl Richardson, Shakti Gawain. And my teachers have really, really been such tremendous forces in my life, even before I knew them personally. And that's an important point, which is that people can be your teacher, even if you don't know them in the form of talking to them every day, you can still perceive them as a mentor and a guide because they can show up in your inbox, Right? And so I've had a lot of guidance. And then what I do today is I, just as any good spiritual teacher will do, is take the principles that are authentic to you and translate them in a way that will resonate with an audience that is ready for you. And so, as a teacher and a messenger of a course in miracles, the main message that the course teaches in the manual for teachers at the end of the book is that this is your time now to let this work come through you in a way that is authentic and let this work come through you in a way that the audience that is ready for you can hear it. And so the way I teach does come in the form of wearing high tops and saying some F bombs and, you know, playing crazy music. And that's authentic to me and that's really helpful to my listeners and my readers. And so it's quite interesting because I've been witnessing some of the early reviews on Amazon and I'm so excited to see how these spiritual people who may not have found my book otherwise, are resonating with the messaging, even though it's coming in a form that's maybe a little bit more Gen X, Gen Y. But the reality there, the point is that when the content is focused on the truth of the work, it doesn't matter what package it comes in. Yes, it might be really easy for a 25 year old woman to read my book and say, this is the first time I can understand spirituality in a way that is true to me. But the groovy thing here is that there's baby boomers reading the book saying, wow, that's the truth. Even though I don't dig that language, that's my truth too. Right? So as a teacher, as long as you are teaching from an authentic place, it doesn't matter how the package is. And most importantly, the package has to be authentic to you. Because once we start trying to mess around with our packaging and our messaging and how we carry messages, that's when things disconnect. That's when we disconnect from being that fluid messenger that we all need to be. So in my case, it's really just about being a clear channel to allow this truth to come through me and do it in a fun way and enjoy the process.

Kind of going back to what I was talking about in the beginning of Someone in a Dark Place. But they did find this interview. They do seek out your book, they do seek out some sort of help or assistance. What about all of the people in maybe our sphere of influence that are in bad places, but they don't have the motivation to go and seek out help and they're struggling and they won't lift a finger to do something because either they're not aware or they're in a bad place or they don't want to. To what degree do you feel that you can influence other people versus it's one thing about wanting it for yourself, it's another thing about a family member or a friend or a co worker. How do you respond to people in trouble, people suffering outside of yourself that you want to help, but you don't see a real drive from them to do something?

There's a few answers to this question. The first principle is that I practice the 12 step mentality of attraction, not promotion. So it's not my job to make your change happen. My job to be a power of example so I can show up and I can carry these messages and I can be the power of example. As Gandhi would say, it can be the change, but I can't make the change happen. And of course Miracles also teaches that all are called upon. Everyone is called upon to make these changes, but few will listen. So it's up to us. It's your choice and your individual choice only if you choose to surrender to that presence of your ing, your inner guidance system. If you choose to be guided to a call like this, if you choose to pick up the phone and call a friend for help, if you choose to read that book, it's your choice. And so if you don't want to change, no one can help you. It's our work to really as individuals make the decision to change, make the decision to move forward.

How many people do you feel, I mean not letting give an exact number, but how prevalent do you feel it is that people stay in a state of suffering to varying degrees because they so want their partner, their children, their whoever to change? I mean I look at it as a form of non acceptance. I mean I happen to very much like the serenity prayer, you know, God grant me the serenity for people that don't know it. To accept the things I cannot change, courage to change the things I can, and the wisdom to know the difference and the ability to know the difference and being aware of it is what you really can and cannot do. I just see a lot of people and again, let me preface everything I'm saying that if anything I say happens to sound like I think I've got a handle on life all the time or have, I mean that's the farthest thing from the truth. I mean much of my suffering has come from my attempt to control, want other people to be a certain way, et cetera, et cetera. So, you know, I mean, I just think a tremendous amount of human energy is. I don't know if wasted is the right term, but that's the best I can say right now. Trying to get other people to adapt to how you wish, hope, plea, beg.

Them to be the huge thing. And what I teach is really just that our only job is to keep our side of the street clean. Because when we are looking to change others for our own peace, you know, it's like, when they change, I'll be happy. Or if they could only get this, then we could be good together, whatever it is. It's like that is a bullshit mentality that doesn't work. What happens for us is that we projected our own internal crisis onto others. I teach a lesson called mirroring, which is that the outside world is a reflection of your internal state. So if you're pointing the finger at somebody else saying, you need to change, you need to change, you need to change the real work that needs to occur there. You need to point that finger back at yourself and say, what is it that I need to change? What is it that I need to work on? And sometimes the change that you need to do in that situation is that you need to leave that relationship and let that person go, right? So you need to forgive that person and accept them as who they are that you need to do. Often if we're saying, well, I can't move forward because they're not doing this, it's like, well, what are you doing? Right? We need to take care of our part here. And that's really all we can take care of. That's all we can clean up. That doesn't mean that we can't ask people to participate in relationships. It doesn't mean we can't express how we feel towards others. But we can't tell people that they need to be one way so that we can be complete. It's about finding our own completeness. And when we find that completeness within ourselves, we begin to attract complete, whole people.

You know, I'm glad you said that, because I have a. I have a female friend. And she was, like, really excited that I was like, oh, you're going to interview the guy, Spirit Junkie. And she's in a relationship with a guy that she really wishes he would be a certain way that he's probably not ever going to be. And, you know, in a lot of ways, it was kind of a question that I sort of, you know, expected you to kind of say what you did. It's really about cleaning up your side of the street and not, you know, thinking that you can, you can fix or change this other person. I mean, does a person have the ability to change another person?

The only way we can change others is through power of example. And we can't be. Here's the thing. You can't set out to change yourself so that someone else will change either. That's like playing magic tricks, Right?

Right. Right.

Using spirituality for crazy voodoo. Right? Yeah, it's like manipulation, complete manipulation. But the truth is that people, when you change your energet the world around you reflects that change back to you. So you change your vibration, your energetic vibration first and foremost. You start attracting different types of people that vibrate at the same frequency that you vibrate at. And the people that don't vibrate at that frequency will either rise above with you because they see that power of example, they see that influence and they want to get there too, or they fall off and they change and they go into a different realm and take a different form in your life. And so yes, the people and experiences we have will change as a reflection of our own inner change. But we can't be making that inner change to manipulate somebody else's experience. Right. A lot of people get into that. This is what I call the difference between magic and miracles. Magic is sitting there being like, if I make all these changes in myself and someone else is going to change, or if I say this affirmation enough times and it's going to happen, it's like, no, if you shift your belief system, you will shift your energy and then your energy can be reflecting a new experience in your life. So that's really, it's not about magic, it's about the miracle, which is just the shift of perception which changes the energy and the energy changes the experience.

Gotcha. So you mentioned attraction versus promotion, kind of the way 12 steps run. And I do want to really speak to that because having spent a good portion of my adult life developing myself is what I hope to be a very skilled, effective marketer and teaching thousands of people marketing methods and processes and techniques and all that sort of stuff. The one movement that I appreciate and respect probably more than anything in the entire how to self help world is 12 step groups, which has done more to reduce, eliminate, relieve human suffering in the form of addiction than every inpatient, outpatient, psychologist, psychiatrist, self help book combined. I have an enormous amount of respect for 12 step groups and it's something that is loosely held together by the voluntary contributions of addicts. And like you said, it's not necessarily how it's packaged. It's the principles and the fact that if it's. It works. And so I really. I really respect 12 steps. And I also think they're very misunderstood by people that haven't either been to them or have done the Steps. It's not just about going to meetings, but it's about actually doing the Steps. And I'd like to have you just speak to 12 Steps because in a lot of ways, I think it's a very, very critical and important tool for people that are suffering from addiction or have someone that is an addict in their life. Not just chemical, but behaviorally, from gambling, eating, sex, Internet work, you name it. So I'd love to just have you talk a little bit about your experiences and what your thoughts are on 12 steps.

I believe that every person in the world should give themselves a gift of going through the 12 steps. I believe that it is relevant to every human being. We all have suffering. We all have resentments that we're holding onto. We all have wreckage from the past. We all have people we need to make amends to. We all have a spiritual faith that we need to rebuild. We all have the necessary trappings for someone who could greatly benefit from 12 step work. So this is my. Again, not a promotion, just a suggestion that if anyone has the desire to make major change, pick up the 12 steps. So pick up the 12 steps and apply it to any form of your life. You know, if you're not an alcoholic, you can replace the words. And again, I mean, we have to be really conscious as people who have practiced the 12 steps, not to promote and not to say this is the only way, because there's many ways, just that this is the one that really. This one really works, right? So it's like, you know, if it.

Works, why don't you just check it out?

But I would wish the 12 steps upon any being in the world. And I, for myself, have experienced the most incredible shifts and the most miraculous changes and in many cases, quantum shifts. You know, experiences of overnight letting go of something. Obviously it was the accumulation of work led up to a point. But that point in time where I woke up and did a step and would say, holy shit, that's gone. I can't believe that's gone. And really just letting go. And that's what that work really allows us to clear the space and release the blocks and clean up the past. And use our past experiences as a vehicle for really, really powerful change and to learn how we can clean up our side of the street. One of the most beautiful principles in the 12 steps is making amends to people. You're given a second chance to really clean up your behavior. I got an email from someone yesterday who said, I'd like to meet with you for a coffee. I believe I need to make an amend to you. I obviously know she's in a 12 step program. I know that she's making an amends to be from 12 Step Place. It's the strangest thing because I don't even know her very well. And so I have no idea what kind of amends is coming to me. But I'm proud of her and I'm excited as someone that's receiving that. We got to show up for that as well. So allowing people to come into your life and make amends and being present for that and really being open and willing to receive that is very powerful. And any practice that promotes and suggest forgiveness is a practice I will stand behind.

Yeah, you got a great point. I'm going to actually ask you about forgiveness here in a little bit. What I will say my first exposure to 12 steps was when I actually used to work at a mental hospital when I was going to college in New Mexico State. And I actually used to drive the AA patients and the NA Narcotics Anonymous people that were in the hospital to 12 step groups as part of their inpatient and outpatient treatment. And I used to sit in these rooms and it was fascinating to me because I actually Never went to 12 steps to fully recover from drugs. I mean, I literally removed myself from the environment and just didn't have access to drugs. And through other forms of self help I really kind of got myself clean and sober. And it was an interesting way that I was introduced in the 12 steps. And little did I know at that time that later in life how important 12 steps would become to me. But what I saw and have seen and do experience today are miracles that do happen to people that, you know, you never in a million years looking at some of the people thinking that they could transform themselves from mean, selfish, you know, screwed up individuals to caring, loving, contributing. And it is because of the removal of resentments and the mutual bonding with people that are suffering and been through stuff. And without going deeply into it on my conversation here with you, I do believe that addiction is a brain disease. I do believe it is a disease. I believe it is not a choice. And like you talk so much about going inward. All the different forms of personal empowerment and motivational seminars in most cases don't do squat for a real addiction. It's really about going inward, not outward like you talk about. That's why I think it's so important to get your message out to many people. One of the main reasons I wanted to interview you because you get that I know a lot of self help people that are really smart and have really great strength, but they don't per se, suffer from an addiction at a deep level like you have. And so there's an insight that I think a lot of people in personal development simply just don't have because they've never been through the experience, whereas you have. And so you kind of get it. And that's important to me.

I always recommend to people, friends of mine who are therapists and people who are working in personal development to sit in on, on open 12 step meetings. Some are closed meetings and some are open. Look up online, you can find out which are open and you can sit in on a meeting or accompany a friend to a meeting. It's a really, really powerful tool to just sit there and witness, really witness spirit in action. Because people come together with one shared desire, which is to change. And they all come from different social and economic backgrounds. And they come together in such a humble, humble way. To have a deep understanding of how the 12 steps work is a really great tool for any practitioner, any spirit guide, any healer, any person that's doing any type of healing work the same way I would suggest practicing meditation and sharing meditation as a tool. Having the 12 steps in your back pocket is a really good, powerful, powerful thing. I just was going to say, I love your story about how you were kind of in such a backdoor way guided into the room.

Yeah, exactly.

It's like it wasn't your choice. And that's what happens is that once we open up and we have that willingness to change, it's like whether we like it or not, we're going to be guided to exactly what we need to receive the healing that we have been calling for internally. And that's clearly, clearly the case with you. This is a beautiful story. You may have not thought that's what I need, but that's what the universe's plan was for you.

Yeah, that's what ended up happening. And one of my favorite sayings from one of the founders of Alcoholics Anonymous, Bill W. Bill Wilson and Dr. Bob, that started AA back in the 30s, Bill W. Said, as alcoholics, we're trying to drink God out of a bottle. And I always found that quite a fascinating statement because if you look at any sort of addiction, a gambling addict is trying to gamble their way to God and a food addict is trying to fill that void. A sex addict is through whatever form of expression that's manifested, an Internet addict, a work addict, an exercise addict, I mean, they're just trying to fill a void. And there's nothing wrong with wanting pain or angst to go away. It's just the method that you choose to do it. So some methods are healthy, others are very self destructive. And through 12 steps you can discover and uncover and discard and you know, there's lots of sayings, but yeah, so I will just, I will echo everything you're saying. I think it would be a gift for everyone to give themselves that experience. And don't judge a book by its cover. It's not a religious group. Although you will find people that are religious and you will find people that are atheists. It's not about that. It's really about a way of living, as is the course, which is the next thing I want to ask you about because I think people that read Spirit Junkie will really enjoy and get tremendous value out of your take your interpretation and your teaching of A Course in Miracles. So I'd like to have you explain for people that, that don't know what the course is or have no idea what is it and why did you write a book about it, given your take on it?

A Course in Miracles is a metaphysical text. It's channeled material written through two atheist professors, psychology professors, who at their point in time and their bottom, surrendered and, and accepted to themselves that they needed to write a manual for their psychology department and their program because things were not working and there was resentment flying everywhere. And so that once again, that slight willingness was their call to spirit to say, we need a better way. And one of the professors, Helen Shookman, began receiving this very strong voice, an authoritative voice came to her. And that voice was saying, we need to make this manual. This is a course in miracles. So she began to channel this voice. And again, she was an atheist. She did not believe in channeling or mediumship. And this is just something that came to her because she was willing. And she cracked that open. And her partner in this, a man by the name of William Thetford, partnered with Helen to scribe the court in several years. And the spirit that came through her is the spirit of Jesus. Now this is a story I don't often tell in most lectures, because people will associate Jesus with Christianity and they will immediately say this is a religious thing. But meanwhile, some of the greatest teachers, for instance, Marianne Williamson, is a Jewish woman teaching metaphysics and quoting Jesus, right? And as a Maya, I'm a Jewish woman with Yogi Mother. And now teaching the principles of a course in miracles, which are completely non denominational. So the spirit of Jesus came through to really teach the truth, which is forgiveness and connecting back to peace and the love within us, and reconnecting to our internal teacher and to create a life where we are living in the world, but thinking with the thoughts of heaven. And that when we reconnect to that inner presence which we all have a connection to, we can really cultivate a new belief system. So a course in miracles is not about how to learn something new, it's actually an unlearning. So the course takes you through three different sections of the book. And the first section is the workbook. Excuse me. The first section is the text which really takes you through an understanding of how our thoughts and our mind, detoured into fear, chose to forget our loving mindset and chose to turn our back on love, and for lack of a better word, turn our back on God. And then we take that text and really welcome in those principles. And through that welcoming, we can then go to the second part of the book, which is the workbook. The workbook is 365 days of daily meditations and exercises that the student will take themselves through to really reprogram your mind. And it's a very incredible, incredible experience to go through these 365 days, because each day you wake up and you have a new thought form which is the exact opposite of what you've chosen to believe in prior to this. If you just stay open and willing, your internal teacher will guide you. And then the final section of the book is the manual for teachers. And in this section, this is when you as a student, become the teacher and learn the principles of being a teacher of love and what it is that you need to show up for daily to be a messenger for this work. And the course teaches us how to be miracle workers. And from a simple perspective, a miracle is a shift in perception. And the more we shift our perceptions, the more miracles we create, the more miracles we add up, the more we live a miraculous life. And so it's really by taking small right actions daily to reprogram your belief system and return to a place of love. And the more we do that, the more we come to true knowing and true understanding that the fear based illusions that we have chosen to believe in are not real. And it's a lot of work and it's a lot of dedication and it's a lot of unlearning old behavior and it's a commitment and a strong desire to change that being a student of the course can lead you out of that fear based belief system. Now, the neat thing is that there's a lot of teachers that really have chosen to transcend the fear and be a messenger for these principles, much like myself and Marianne and people like Kenneth Wapnick and people like Gary Renard and beautiful, beautiful teachers that are out there in the world teaching this work. So that even if you don't have the desire to pick up a course in miracles and take yourself through the lessons, you can still perceive yourself as a student of the course just by being a student of Marianne Williamson or being a student of mine. Because we're teaching these principles and we will guide you in the same way. Carry these messages in your own life. If you feel called to pick up the course, great. If you don't, great too.

How much time do you think you spent going through? I'm sure it's a lifelong process with you now at this point, but how much time did you invest in it when you really started? I guess to see the gifts from it immediately.

I've been a student of the course for six years and I started to see changes right away once I started to soak up this new way of being. Because it's just when you're, like I said earlier, when the student is ready, all that you need will come to you. And I was so eager and so hungry and so ready for change. And so that willingness just really flooded me with a lot of shift very, very early on. But as I've grown, I can pick up the book today and read the book as if I'm reading the newspaper. Whereas when I pick the book six years ago, it was like reading Chinese because the language is very Christic. It's also just the belief systems and the theology is so the opposite of what we have been taught. So it's such a neat thing to look back and see in retrospect how it was quite difficult for me to understand these principles and take them on six years ago, whereas today I understand it more than I understand the Wall Street Journal.

In your experience, has it been easier for you to learn or to unlearn?

Well, I think it's all about an unlearning. So everything that I'VE been learning has been practices of unlearning. Does that make sense? I hope that makes sense. Yeah.

Yeah, it does to me.

Yeah, it's mental reconditioning. So it's that there's a. I used to have faith and fear. Whereas through unlearning that fear, through practicing forgiveness or practicing detachment, practicing lack of judgment, practicing no more gossip, practicing prayer, practicing meditation, I have unlearned my faith and fear. I've detached from my faith and fear.

So are you saying we can't gossip about like Saint Marie as an example if we wanted to?

Yes, I am actually. Because though. Though, of course, I do catch myself in many moments of gossiping and attacking and judging and all the things that we do in the world. I have a very steadfast practice of forgiving myself immediately, forgiving the other person and cleaning it up. And this is what I do every single day. Because the practice, gossiping and judging others is what the course refers to as separation. And what happens when we gossip is we perceive others as separate from ourselves, less than, better than. And that makes us less than, feel less than or better than. And that disconnects us from our truth, which is that we are one and we are all very, very strong belief system of, you know, they can do that, I can't, or I've got more, they don't. Or my intern is less than me, or my boss is greater than me, or my boyfriend is my idol. And all these projections that we put out onto the world and that separation funneled and fuels more fear into our mind. And so if you really want to dedicate your life to being a student and a teacher of spirituality, then you have to really practice what you preach. And do I never gossip? No, of course I do. Do I forgive myself the moment I do? Do I stop myself in my tracks every single time? Yes.

You know, that's great. And I have no statistical place I can point to on this because I actually heard it from someone. But there was supposedly some study that was done in America that. That two thirds of American conversations of what Americans talk about is supposedly gossip. And that sounds about accurate to me, you know, and if that actually, if there is truth to that, it goes to show you just the state of many people's lives. And it would seem to me, and for anyone listening that would hear what, what you just said, I want to point out that even if you be at 12 steps or a Course in Miracles, which your book has actually reinvigorated me, to literally pick up the course and start Going through, because I've had it. I've actually have someone who's a very famous person that told me it was the most influential work of their life, but I never went through it. And the way that you presented in Spirit Junkie and the way that you talk about it makes it, you know, it just spells it out. And I think that's why it's so important that everyone listening pick up a copy of your book. And if you think this is bullshit, it's about religion, or it's not about religion, or it doesn't fit what my belief system is, it has nothing to do with any of that. 12 steps don't. In A Course in Miracles, it doesn't matter if you have zero belief in any sort of higher power. I think you will derive immense value from it. And having said that, I'd like to ask you the obvious question that's not an easy one to answer is what is spirituality?

I was waiting for that question, Joe.

How were you? You should have told me early on.

I psychically knew it was coming. So what I teach in this book is that I'm not here to teach the reader or the audience what spirituality means. I'm here to guide you to create a spiritual relationship of your own understanding. And this is such a powerful way to teach. It's not saying it's only this way. I'm just saying here I am with my story, my experience, my truth of what spirit means to me. I will be a messenger and a conduit for you to do the same, that you can establish a relationship of your own. Now, what spirituality means to me, this is for you. Each of you will find your own way and be able to create a God concept or a spiritual concept of your own. But for me, spirituality means living in a place of true oneness, having forgiveness, being your first choice and thought when attack or judgment comes to rise. Connecting to a space beyond our outer eye and connecting to a world in our inner eye, in our inner mind's eye, and. And bringing that world, that connection, that experience of a world beyond what we see with our vision to our life experience. And allowing that place beyond our vision to show up in the world that we see today. So for me, I have beautiful direct line to spirit. I can hear, I can see, I can feel. I physically feel spirit. I physically. When I talk about spirit, I talk about the love energy, the presence of love, the one conversation, the conversation of oneness, the conversation of peace, the conversation of faith, that when I slow down, when I tune in, when I meditate. When I breathe, I feel physically spirit come through me. I hear very loud words like forgive, let go, trust. And in that space, I can take that inner voice and that inner dialogue and bring that inner truth to my present life experience. And that's what I'm here to do in this world at this time. That's the choice I made. I came back around to do that, to be a messenger, to be a liaison between that world of inner peace and truth and love to a world of a lot of darkness and fear and to help bring that and be a bridge for that message to come forward. And so that's how I can describe what spirit is. To me, it's a connection to a divine truth that is love. And it might sound trippy, it might sound heady, it might sound weird, and that's cool, that's fine. But I'm sure energetically, whoever's listening will believe that that is authentic to me, regardless of whether the semantics make sense. But the, the truth of the content is underneath whatever it is that I just said.

I like it, I like it. That's powerful. Let's talk about the chapter in your book titled the F word, which I think is pretty funny and also pretty powerful. So let's talk about the F word.

So forgiveness. Forgiveness is the bedrock of a spiritual practice. Forgiveness is the most powerful tool you can use to reconnect with that truth, that loving presence, the spirit within you. Because what happens when we practice forgiveness is that we let go of our fear based resentments that we as humans carry around these resentments, we carry around our resentment towards ourselves, or resentment towards others, or resentment towards society, or resentment towards anything that is fear based. We carry that, we replay that resentment in the present moment and we project it onto the future. And so we really live in that hamster wheel, just re recording that same limiting belief over and over again. Through forgiveness, we can detach from that belief system. Through forgiveness, we can release. Through forgiveness, we can let ourselves off the hook and let the world off the hook simultaneously. And so practicing forgiveness is quite difficult for people because it's the opposite of what many of us have been taught. But it is the primary principle for restoring your thoughts back to love. And so to bring forgiveness into your life, a lot of people will be like, okay, great, but how do I start forgiving? What does that mean? So the first step is to really just witness and become conscious and connect to who it is and what it is that you need to forgive. How have you been playing the victim? How have you been holding onto a resentment. And then the second step is to become willing to let that go and begin a prayer practice of really opening up your mind to be willing to forgive. If you pray for 30 days that you're willing to forgive, a lot of shifts will happen. There's a lot more detail of how to forgive. But those three steps are quite simple. Just becoming conscious of who you need to forgive, becoming willing, and then praying for that willingness daily. Those three steps are really powerful transformational tools to invite forgiveness as a practice into your life.

You know, one of my favorite sayings on forgiveness, my friend Dan Sullivan said, which is, forgiveness is giving up the hope that someday you're going to have a better past. Yeah, I'm not sure if he came up with that, but I heard it through him. Your book and the course in 12 steps and all of the tools that are out there, it's not just about reading them or hearing about them. It's about adopting a practice. And in order for someone to transform, it can happen instantly. It could be a process, and it could be small transformations, it could be gigantic. What does someone really need to take on if they. If they are going to go from a place of misery to a place of betterment and happiness? I mean, what are the conditions that must exist for a person? I mean, maybe it's simple, maybe it's difficult. How would you. I guess, how would you respond to that?

Well, the main place to begin is, as I said twice now, willingness. It's just, you got to have that. Because this is the same thing we said earlier. It's like, if you don't want to change, you can't change. So everyone's going to find tools that are really unique to them, that are going to be really powerful. So for me, it was 12 step, it was Course in Miracles, it was Marianne Williamson, it was Wayne Dyer. That was what was authentic to me. That was what sparked for me. Does it mean that I wasn't introduced to other. Whether it was yogi practices or whatever it may have been. But what I chose was this direction that was really resonating. But it's not necessarily how you get there. It's just having the willingness to get there. And once you have that willingness, all the teachers you need show up, all the tools you need become very present in your life. Tools you can bring into your life immediately if you're listening and you're willing. It's a daily practice of prayer and meditation. The prayer for some people may just seem like it's something religious. So I really want to just demystify prayer for everybody. A prayer can be a thought of love. A prayer can be a written word of just, I need help. I welcome and surrender to guidance around me. A prayer can be God, universe, whoever the hell is out there, show me what you got. Right? That was my first prayer on October 2, 2005. I said, God, universe, whoever is out there, I need a miracle. And that prayer was the catalyst to my greatest change. So bringing a prayer practice into your life of turning your will over and asking for help to. Even if you don't know who you're asking, but just fake it till you make it, as they say in the 12 steps, fake it till you make it. Just ask and surrender. That's a big, big part of the process of change. And then meditation is just, in my experience, has been the most transformational tool, which is just allowing yourself to sit in stillness and center into that connection that we all have. We all have a divine connection to love. We just are too busy. We're thinking over it. We're drinking over it. We're working over it. We're fucking over it. Excuse my language.

I was hoping you'd throw in an F bomb.

That's perfect. I know it wouldn't be an authentic interview with me if I didn't, but we're just doing and being and all of this stuff over that experience of the divine presence of love within us. And so when we can practice slowing down and we can get to a place of just having stillness in our day, even for two minutes a day, we can really surrender to that peace. So I'll give you some links so we can give people some free, guided meditations that I have. Just let people begin their meditation practice immediately. They can just center in and start listening to that inner guidance system rather than that external voice that says, do more, drink more, fuck more, work more, tweet more. Right.

Well, you know what? Let's do that now. Let me say this. I would like everyone to pick up a copy of Spirit Junkie. You can do that online. You can pick it up in bookstores. Also, some of the chapters. It's. I just wanted to share it because I think you'll see that this will probably be quite a useful book to you and perhaps a loved one. The Detour in the Fear is part one, and it's chapters of Tiny Mad anxiety and ashrams. Something special. Ask Ing, Ing for help. That's your inner teacher, your inner guidance. And then part two is the answer which the F word. Relationships are assignments. The horror, Holy instant and accepting my invitation. And then the third part is the miracle. And you have chapter Spirit Becomes my boyfriend, Love Wins, Expect Miracles and Spirit Junkie. So what's, what do you think is the biggest takeaway that most people are getting from Spirit Junkie right now? And it's just recent coming out.

The takeaway right now is that people are emailing me and facebooking and tweeting and saying, oh my God, I'm so happy to know I'm not alone. Because this book is my story. But it's a story that will resonate with everyone because in some way, shape or form, we've all chosen fear over love. And hopefully at some point in our life, have decided that there has to be a better way. So I hope this book is just a beautiful offering to the world that says you are not alone. And here's my experience of how I got my way out and join me. Awesome.

Awesome. So, yes, please give out some links to anything that would be useful and valuable and beneficial to all our listeners.

Yes. So really everything from me, the listeners can find at my website, GabbyB TV. G A B B Y TV. And on that main page I offer free guided meditations. Just sign up right away. You can get free guided meditations. You can get my weekly video blog, and you can really get a lot, a lot of content from me. I really just do a great job of just giving a lot of free content and then there's a lot of things that you can check out, lectures and videos to purchase. And more importantly, it's just a lot of free available content for people that are ready for this work. And I hope that site guides you. And then if there's a woman listening to this site, I have a tremendous community of women called HerFuture.com, which is now almost 11,000 women social networking site of women helping women and supporting each other and helping each other further their endeavors. And this site is growing rapidly. So join the party, join the online fiesta and help yourself to this amazing community that will be there to help you. And that's it. Those are the places you can get me.

Yeah. Awesome. So GabbyB TV and you know what? I have to ask you, I kind of forgot to do this, but I'm going to ask you now. I have a giant podcast with my friend Dean Jackson called ilovemarketing.com and although it seems to be like a takeaway from what we're talking about, I look at the field of marketing as just a way of communicating and getting messages out into the world. And the more effective you are at that, the more people that you can reach. And I think one of the things that makes you successful is you're good at communicating what it is you do. And you get on TV and you're putting it out there. And no matter how great your mind message is, it's only useful if people find out about it or if they see you somewhere or they are guided to it. But you got to be out there and you're really good at being out there. And there's a lot of people that have a lot of their value is communicating things out to the world, but they don't really quite know how to do it. And you're really good at social media, social networking, getting publicity and that sort of stuff. Any tips, suggestions to the listeners in the area of marketing and. And just putting your message out to the world.

I think that marketing is a spiritual conversation. If you have a message that is going to change people, it's going to serve people, then you better learn how to be a great marketer. You better practice great marketing. My philosophy is how dare you hide your gifts from the world. And so marketing has. As much as I am a spiritual teacher, I am, and I'll just pat myself on the back for a minute, but I'm a tremendous marketer. I love, love sharing a message and I have a massive message to share and I will do whatever it takes to get that message out there. And so part of this also from a spiritual perspective is recognizing that we are our bodies. The being who we are is the vehicle with which we contribute these messages to the world. So really becoming connected to who we truly are is a big part of the marketing process and knowing what is authentic to us. So titles like spirit junkie or add more ing to your life and using the word ing rather than holy spirit was what was going to help me carry the message to the masses. Saying something like spirit junkie rather than citing something that was a little bit more christic or too religious would be wrong for me. Because what is authentic to me as a marketer is to make these messages easy to digest and easy to share. And I absolutely love, love the vehicles of Twitter and Facebook and using the Internet as my business partner in many ways to carry the message with me because again, once again, how dare I have the keys to the kingdom and not share them with the world. And so I have shown up for the marketing of all of the work that I do from a very authentic place. And one main Message I'd love to share with anyone who is a marketer that's listening or trying to show carry a message in a way that is going to be powerful is that whatever it is that you're sharing, in whatever form that you're sharing it, the most important thing is energy. You have to believe in full faith in what it is that you are sharing, because energy is in everything. Energy is behind a tweet, energy is behind a video. Energy is behind a phone call and interview. Energy is behind a blog post, a video. And so whenever I tweet something that doesn't feel authentic to me, I delete it and come back and tweet it again when I feel connected and I feel in vibrational alignment with that message. So I sell a lot. I'm selling a lot, but I'm selling something I believe in. I'm selling something I can stand behind. I'm selling something that I know will transform lives. So I never, ever feel like I'm selling. In fact, I just feel like I'm sharing the most incredible gift with the world. And that energy is what allows true success to occur. And when you get that true success is an inside job and that it's all about really being connected and in tune with the messages that you need to carry and carrying them in an authentic way to you, then the universe can conspire to help with that messaging in many forms that you could never imagine. And that's when people will. That's when someone with a huge Twitter following will retweet what you have, or that's when the newspapers will call. I often joke that God is my publicist. And I definitely think I'm going to have to create a program, a video program called God is My Publicist. And I mean, some of the most incredible publicity that I have received in my life has come just through the power of intention.

That's great. That's great. Actually, I think you should create a program called Goddess.

We're talking about it now.

Yeah, exactly. You got to do it.

I'll interview you for that.

What's that?

I'll interview you for yes, yes.

And of course, I seriously doubt this will be the last time we're going to be talking on a public interview. So this is the start. If this is the first time you've ever heard of Gabrielle Bernstein, then go get a copy of her book. Check out GabbyB TV and what are some other sites? Again, I know you mentioned it before, but let's say one more time, her future. Yeah. Awesome. So you're awesome. I really look forward to hearing the comments that all of the listeners have. I will encourage everyone listening to this. This is one of those conversations that if you have anyone that really you care about and you think this message would resonate with to go ahead and share this conversation with them. And yeah, any famous last words?

Gabby? I just ask that everyone stay open and willing to receive whatever guidance they need to make changes and remember that all they need is that willingness. So may everyone be blessed and happy and healthy and may you all connect with your inner guide. That's my last word.

Awesome. Thank you. Her name is Gabrielle Bernstein and the book is Spirit Junkie. And to all of our listeners, have a wonderful day. Thank you.

Hello, this is Joe Polish. I want to thank you for taking the time to listen to this interview. I hope you found it very useful. Please give me your feedback on all of the interviews that you listen to. I love to hear your feedback so we can always deliver a great program for you. Our website is www.joepolish.com and we also have a Joe Polish Recommends section. So you can take a lot of the ideas and concepts that you hear on my Genius Network interview series and apply them to your business and find vendors and resources. You can go to joe polish.com to find that information and click on the Joe Polish Recommends section. And also if you would like to find out about more interviews and invest in more useful Genius Network series interviews, go to www.thanks and eat your competition alive.