Landmark Forum Coach Ron Zeller Interview About The Ageless Life - I Love Marketing With Joe Polish And Dean Jackson - Episode #154

I'm dean jackson, he's joe polish, and this is the I love marketing podcast. Hello.

This is Joe Polish, and I'm here with a group of people that I'll quickly introduce. We've got Mr. Ron Zeller, who's the author of Aging or Ageless? And we'll talk about that in a moment. Susie Pepys. We've got Ron Zeller's wife, Mary Louise Zeller, ron's son, Ron Jr. RJ. And we got Mr. Neil Moore, who has a company called Simply Music. And we have Mr. Tim Paulsen. And Ron, I'm going to ask you before we get into this interview to explain the context of where we're at. Where are we at right now and what's going on in your life. And then I'll introduce kind of who you are. I just want people listening to know what's going on.

Okay, well, what's going on in my life right now is I'm dealing with cancer, stage four lung cancer. And I've dealt with cancer before. 20 years ago, I had stomach cancer, incurable. And so I got through that with the help of a lot of great alternative healers. I didn't do any chemo, radiation, any traditional medicine. I hadn't seen any results coming from that. And so I decided not to do it. Any cures coming from it? And so on. And off I've been dealing with it, mostly off. Mostly I've been living what I call an ageless life, which is after I got through cancer, I saw that man, cancer is nothing compared to aging. And we all go through aging. So was there. And I've been in transformational work for 30 years. And so I thought, well, I've been able to transform individuals and groups and companies. Is there anything I could do about a culture? Because it's so invisible in America, aging, that it's just taken for granted. In a Western culture, like in Eastern cultures, they see aging differently, like wisdom, things like that. We see it like, you know, can I hit a little ball around the course all my days? And that's the good life. And it is for some people. I don't mean to knock it if it is, but for me, it wasn't. And for me, I wanted to engage in transformation, which is what I've been about. So when you say, what are you up to now, Ron? I'm up to what I've been about, which is transformation. Except I'm interested now in what's possible with a paradigm. Can a whole way of thinking of an entire culture be transformed So I, I say I can't do it, but maybe I can open the door for the conversation. Because what I found transformation is about is conversations. So if you can alter a conversation, a conversation that is normally there, and replace it with like new software, which is a new conversation, you can alter the entire paradigm you're in and dealing with. So. So that's what I took out about aging. That's where I'm at.

And where are we physically at right now?

Physically, we're in a facility. I was in the emergency ward, I don't know what was it, four days ago and wasn't given long to live. Weeks, I think it was. And I had pneumonia, severe pneumonia a few, few days ago. And I felt it was severe and I felt like I didn't want to live. That's where I was at. In fact, this interview. What's the point? You know, I just. What's the point? I want out of here. And hospice has a lot of drugs. Maybe that's a good way to go. So that's where I was at. And then we left the hospital a day ago and came here to what's called a hospice. It's one of a kind in the state where you can actually live in there, get full time care, nurse, doctor as you need it, cooking, place to sleep. And it's really, really great. It's called caresource.

It's in Salt Lake.

Yeah, in Salt Lake. And they're just so great here. As soon as I got here, they gave me a sponge bath. I hadn't had a bath in a while and they started taking care of me. If I want fresh juice in the morning, I asked to cook. It's just awesome.

Good, good. So I want to give an introduction on who you are. And I want to, instead of asking you, who's Ron Zella? I want to ask Neil Moore. You've known Ron for how many years?

26 years.

Yeah.

And Mary Louise, you know, you're married to this guy. So talk about who is Ron Zeller?

Well, I met Ron in a professional educational capacity. Ron was leading transformative education programs for an organization at that time known as Werner Earhart and Associates. It was a program called the Forum, which these days is known as the Landmark Forum. And I participated in that program as a result of an event that I attended that Ron led. And I went into the Forum, a weekend program, and in many respects it opened up a pathway for me of involvement in transformative education.

I think it was in Australia, wasn't it?

It was in, yeah. Northern Australia.

Yeah.

And so I was actually quite involved in Landmark education for many years. I've never really not been involved in participation. I've had every business I've had, I've had Landmark programs, every one of my staff participate in the Landmark Forum, or I've had customised programs developed for my organisation for all my staff to participate in. I'm just someone who believes in the value of that work. And so I've always known of Ron and what he's contributed. And I've had a relationship with Ron as a result of my participation in Transformation. But it really was elevated to a different level about eight years ago, actually. Ron was leading the first of the programs that he developed about the whole area of aging. At that time, it was called winning the second half. Looking at the first half of your life and dividing a line of demarcation and how do we turn the second half of your life into the winning framework of the game? And my wife and I did that workshop. That was a huge experience for me. I went into that program. I was in my late 40s. I'm 57 now, so, yeah, 49. And that was a game changer for me, really. I came out of that event feeling young.

And I think, if I can give.

You a metaphor, I love to drive. It's one of my favorite things to do. And if I'm going anywhere, I love to fill my car up with gas. And there's just something about having a full tank, that my car drives better when I've got a full tank of gas and I notice that I can enjoy the drive, but as I get less gas in the tank, I start to have more attention on how many more miles have I got. And I'm more and more distracted, less and less present to the drive and more and more present to how much gas I've got in the tank. And every now and then I'll let my gas get down to that little warning light that comes on. And now I've got my attention on it the whole time. I got to get gas. I'm almost out of gas. I can't pay any attention or enjoy the drive at all. And there's a correlation between that experience and participating in your program that for me, it was like, I'm 49 years of age. How much gas have I got left? How much more time have I got to enjoy the drive? And I figured that I was probably halfway or over halfway through my life. And I can see now that I had a relationship with that, even though I'm Halfway through my life, I also saw that maybe I only had another 15 or 20 years of high levels of productivity. And I begin the natural aging wind down. And I came out of your workshop thinking, heck, I'm maybe a third of the way through my life. I got a full tank of gas. I got gas in reserve. I just felt younger. And it completely changed the relationship to the way that I woke up, the way that I went through the day, the size of the contribution that I could make. And from that point onwards, Ron and I began a very close relationship. We began coaching together, we designed programs together that I implemented right throughout my organization. We spend, I don't know, hundreds and hundreds of hours on the phone in coaching, conversations and dinners together and weekends away and vacations. And you've completely transformed my life. I absolutely love you. You're an extraordinary human being. And you know, I look at the quality of the work that you do and I think for any possibility, someone has to be a torchbearer. There needs to be somebody who actually exemplifies what it is that they're standing for rather than just talking about it as a possibility, which is inspiring in and of itself. But you exempl. You live the talk, you walk the talk. You are that example of what it means to be ageless. I mean, heck, you've told a few days ago you only have days to live and here you are jumping out of airplanes. Still, I mean, you're a remarkable human being and I love you. Thank you for all you've contributed to me and everybody I know who's been associated with you.

You are welcome and so are they. It's a privilege and honor.

Yeah, awesome. Well, with that, Mary Louise, let me turn this on you. So, Mary Louise, what would you say about your husband? How many years you been married?

Oh, we've been 30. 30 and a few years more before that. It was love at first sight for me. I was a heat honing missile.

What does that mean?

First time I. Only a few people will know what this means. I was assisting in landmark. Then it was the S training and there was a room for assistance and they called it the counters and collectors room. And I walked in there and I was assisting that night for an event and Ron was leaving, he was on the phone talking to someone corporate and I speak Spanish. So I said to my Spanish speaking friend, you know, who's that guy? You know? And that was it. I found out he was going to be in Miami the next night. I changed my whole work schedule, went down To Miami. And, you know, we ended up beginning a relationship.

So you had a crush on him, basically.

Crush. Like a bulldozer. Ron was out there serving the world and altering the world. I mean, like creating new possibilities, new futures with people. So he's creating new lives. So I just made life work for him. And my sister one time told me I was polishing his shoes. I said, well, let me polish shoes while we talk. And she jumped off the bed. Well, does he do that for you? And I was like, ginger, Ginger, it's okay to serve somebody who's serving the world. That's who Ron is. He's somebody who is always out there making life work for people, empowering people. Empowering people. If you can expand somebody's perception, you can certainly expand their life. And the results in life, they, they just change what they think they can do. They start creating and, you know, I mean, look at me. I mean, I took on taekwondo at the age of 38 and you know, just trying to get fit, being middle aged and became a US national champion 20 years riding an album, a six degree black belt and you know, nine time world champion in full contact. And I'm from Atlanta, where NASCAR girls don't kick people.

You know.

They don't fight. You know, NASCAR's don't fight, but I like to kick them in the head.

So when she says he's been 20 years running national champion, that's full contact taekwondo, that's not points. Let's see if we can get close to each other and a referee will say whether we did or not. No, that's. Let's have two ambulances on standby. One is usually busy all the time and one of the times is usually with Mary Louise, like when she got her whole face crushed, her whole nose crushed, and you know, other injuries. She's paid her dues is the point I want to make, really. Paid her dues.

You know what, the whole term, pay your dues. What does that, what does that actually mean?

It means to me like you're walking the talk and you're engaged in the game. Mainly you're engaged in the game with everything you got rather than you're engaged in a talk about game of advice and information and even understanding you're engaged in it. So an example, if I can give you one, is I wrote a book about ageless life, but I saw here a couple with the help of a son a couple days ago. Well, a week ago now. I wasn't living an ageless life. As I was dying, I was Just living an ordinary, aging life. And so my son said, as I think Neil pointed out, about jumping on airplane. Why don't you go jump out on airplanes, dad? Furthest thing from my mind that morning when I got up. Furthest, furthest thing. And I got to thinking, you know, what if I wrote a book about the ageless life? I better stinking be living an ageless life. And this would be a blow for ageless living. So we called up, went down, signed up, and it was the most scary thing I did. Why? Because my lung capacity is 90% reduced from lung cancer. So when they strap me in with a big strapping hulk of a tandem jumper and I can't breathe, I'm in the panic mode. And then they can't hear me because of the airplane. So when I say I can't breathe, I'm in the double panic mode, okay? And now it's like, can I get down alive? Will I have enough air to land? And so I was in panic, I would say, for six hours, with experience of not having enough air. But now, in retrospect, a week later, it's like, I'm glad I did that, because it was a blow for freedom. And. And that's what I mean by paying your dues. I paid some dues a week ago, some dues to be able to talk about the ageless life even as I'm dying. I paid some dues. I saw it's possible for us to die an ageless death, or it's possible for us to die a normal, aging death. Let's say an American normal aging. And a lot of people don't. And I don't. I don't mean to discredit them at all. In fact, I honor them. People like Jack Lane, who just right up to the last day, you know, I think I can work out today. I mean, that for me, is paying your dues.

Yeah. So, Mary Louise, let me come back to you. You know things about Ron that most people don't. What is the difference between him and other people that don't play the game, that don't pay their dues? Why does he do it? Anything that you have observed about him? A commitment, a drive that the listeners to this could really learn from that. You see.

Ron just always creates life. I remember we would be hiking up in the mountains, and there'd be a glacier of snow, and we'd hiked all day to get up there. And he says, well, we can either pick our way down in the dark or we can go down this way.

And I'm like, oh.

Not that way.

And he's gone. He's Geronimo ing it, you know, like that boom, boom, boom, boom, boom, all the way down. And I started picking my way down, like digging into the ice. He goes, you've got to get out of your head for this one. I go, oh, well, Geronimo. Da da, da da. So that's who Ron is now. I fell and started sliding. And at the end of the glacier is nothing but rocks. So Ron's like, you know, let's capture her instead of having her go into the roc. And he scooped me up, but I still had the scar on my leg where rock sliced my leg. And who Ron is like, I'm holding it closed because it's really a big cache bleeding profusely. And we're like hours from anywhere. And we go over to this little stream that just happened to be there. And he's watching the dirt out of the cut and we haven't seen a person all day. And I look down next to the rock I'm sitting on and there's an unopened box of gauze. Swear to God.

Wow.

I just go, ron, look. And he's like, oh my gosh, somebody left it there. But it wasn't that convenient. So I wrapped the leg up and we hiked out. And that's what it's like to live with Ron. Ron has been doing all Last year, these 20 mile a day hikes through Death Valley. You know, walk through the valley of Death Valley. He does it daily and he's always challenged. And when he took on leading, I mean, he was an educator all of his life. It took him eight years to get trained to lead the S training and the Landmark Forum. And he led those courses all over the world. And he was constantly preparing. Ron constantly prepares for everything. So this isn't just Geronimo through life, he's well prepared for that. He studies, he's read more than any human being I've ever known. He is never without growing, developing, learning, engaged fully in life and making a difference. And he was one of the best leaders of Landmark and touched hundreds of thousands of lives in 70 countries. That's who Ron is. He would just get on a plane and go. And he was my model and example. So, you know, regardless of what it was, he took it on 100%. Just fully engaged in life and making a difference. Like he took on weightlifting and went out and broke a record for his age and weight.

State record, what was it? State record. Idaho State.

Yeah. State record.

I don't know, it's like 350 pound deadlift from my age. From what age? Yeah, what's the age? 67. The thing is powerlifting, I don't get to go up there alone. I go up there with a line of big, strong powerlifters of which I'm the weakest in the line. So for me, just showing up takes a certain amount of chutzpah to get my skinny little body up there. And I didn't think I'd ever do anything like that. But I trained for a year with a friend of mine who was a powerlifter who announced on the first day, we'll never make it. You're just too stiff at whatever, 60, 70. Whenever I took it up, he says, just impossible. And a year later we won that championship. And three years later we won the national championship. And about three years ago I won the world championship in powerlifting for my age. And you know, there's a story about, I think it's in the book actually, about powerlifting story and like that. Some important things we're talking about you can get at how you can get at in the book, how you can capture them. Because that's what it's about for me. Not about, look at me doing all these great things. It's about, look at me. Because I'm saying you can do way beyond anything you imagined. I never imagined in a million trillion years I'd be a world champion at anything, anything, nothing.

And he decided he was going to run a hundred mile race, the Wasatch 100, which is not just level land. We're talking. You go up to 10,000.

He's mounds here. Yeah, back there. You know about him?

Oh, yeah, yeah.

Wasatch Farm, they go up to 11, 12,000ft. How long ago was that, the 100 mile, Ray? I was 67, I think when I did it, whenever that figures out to be. 13 years ago.

Yeah, he just decided he was going to prove that he'd been diagnosed with cancer again. He was just going to prove that he could really strengthen himself in the face of whatever. And he began strengthening. You could run five miles, I bet when you started that. So he began training. And sometimes I'd run over.

I could run one block for the race. I could run one block. And I laughed at what a nutcase I was to sign up for 100 mile Wasatch. Maybe you could tell me about the race to sign up for that. That was a nutcase, audaciously. And I trained as hard as I could in the middle of the night, I'd be out training my dog.

Yeah, I was going to say, sometimes I turn over in bed and he's gone. You know, he says, well, I'm going to be running at night. I got to train at night with a little headlight, like a miner's headlight on. And the dog would come in and sleep all day because he would wear her. But he started that race.

I got up to 15 miles in training. That's the most I could jog, walk, run. And I said, well, I'll go out and do it, but if I get to 16 miles, I'm going to count that as a personal record and be empowered by it and uplifted by it and have proven to myself I'm stronger than the cancer, because most people with these kind of cancers can't do this. That was the time ago that I was racing it. And so I got out there, I ran, and I got to mile 50 and 60. I couldn't believe it. And then I hit mile 75, Brighton Ski Resort. I'm not going to get into it stories in my book. But it's. I got there and I wanted to quit. Nothing ever so bad in life. And then what happened?

Well, first of all, you know, you have pacers who encourage you. His pacer said, I think you ought to quit. He came into Brighton. I was up there because at each checkpoint, I was bringing him change of shoes and socks and food. So he got into Brighton in the middle of the night, like three in the morning. And. And it looked like, boom.

Boom.

I go like, he can't go another foot, you know, so he gets in there and he's sitting against the wall, and I'm poking food in his mouth, and his eyes are closed, and he's, like, sleeping while he's eating. And then he lays down on the floor and he's just, like, spread out on the floor, and he's out for the count, unconscious. So I got behind him. There had been this guy who was a few years older than him. I said, you know that older guy? He already went out the door. And I got behind the wall and.

I was pushing his back.

And I sat him up, and I said, you said 100. He goes, no, you do 75. And tell me about.

I said, you look. Oh, fart. You said, you're going to do 100 miles. Get your ass out there on that trail. I've got 25 to go.

And he's complaining and he's saying, you do 75 and tell me about 100.

You know.

And I said, come on out the door. And I literally just opened the door and pushed it out. And who was it? Julio Guerrero. He didn't want to go either. And he said that last, you know, because you go up and down mountain.

Paul Schmidt went with me.

Paul Schmidt. Oh, my gosh. Paul Schmidt. Yeah. Julio brought you in. He didn't go out. Paul Schmidt. And they start off this next big.

Climb, and he said, 20 to 11,500ft.

He said it was the hardest thing he'd ever done.

Oh, it was step by step of the hardest thing I've ever done.

Yeah. And he said just as he was coming over the top of the mountain, the sun was coming up and he got this renewed energy, and he ran the last, what, five miles or so in and did it, you know, so it was like jumping out of the airplane.

You gotta do it in a certain time for it to count. You gotta come in less than 36 hours. And I was already at 34, so I had a, like, hustle. Wow. It was one of those hard moments.

Yeah. But he won his age group. I lied. The other guy had dropped out many miles. He kept looking for the old guy.

So I can say I won the hundred mile race in my age group. Yeah.

And here's how we did the Inca Trail. You know, you can tell the hikers from the tourists because the tourists are clean and they have their hiking clothes on, but they're clean clothes. And, you know, they came in on the train. We walked the Inca Trail for five days. That was the hardest thing I've ever done. They have steps this high. How those little Indians got them up there, it's like the pyramids. How did they do that? And so I would. You're up at high elevations, 13,000ft, and it rained most of the time, and it was freezing cold. And I would walk 10 steps up those big steps, and I'm like, you know, pushing on the legs. He was walking up and then coming back and walking up again with me. So he, like, walked the Inca Trail twice. And that was the hardest thing I'd ever done. And that was our vacation. That's what it's like to go on vacation with Ron.

It's so hard. She almost died.

I almost died.

We had to get a doctor and their IVs and stuff. And they said she was very close.

Yeah. I got a bacterial infection, and it was Ron who said, I'm going to go get a doctor. I said, no, no, no, I'll be better Tomorrow I wouldn't have been.

No, you would have been.

Yeah, I would.

Just a different kind of body fitter.

So how would you guys operate if you actually decided to live full out?

That's the question we're in. And one of the part answers to the question is I'd really make life about people getting our unlimited possibilities no matter what the circumstances are, that you and I have the power in any face of any circumstances to transform our lives. And I'd be doing that full out and I don't know what it would look like I'm in the question of that, but it would include a jump out of an airplane that's already done now, so I don't have to worry.

And you never know that you're going to be a champion. Champion shows up in the work. So you know my coach in taekwondo, he's Korean master William Kim in California. And he told me when I came up to a championship, I threw a thousand kicks a day. So I went home and I put a paper on my wall, all the different combinations of kicks and I checked them off and I threw a thousand kicks a day. Took two and a half hours to throw a thousand kicks a day. So I threw 1,000 kicks a day for about 15 years straight. And champion shows up in that. I had one thing on the wall in my studio. I said do the work. So when you're doing the work, you just engage. I just noticed I was most alive and strengthened when I'm involved in a great project, I'm most alive. So it's like get a project. It doesn't even matter what. Just get a great project that makes a difference, inspires people to live full out.

That at first you don't think you can do that, at first you don't.

Think you can do it and then.

At some point you enroll yourself in. I can do that. I call that an impossible game. Get an impossible game and play it with everything you got. That's how I'm going to intend to find my way at this stage in life. Get an impossible game. Do everything. I got another one and then see what emerges.

So when you're involved in an impossible game, when you're doing the work, and I love your line about the champion shows up in the work. How do you know if you won?

Each game has some goal, otherwise you can't tell if you win the game. So can I ask or just say something real quick? Jill? So when you're Talking about this 100 mile thing, I just think people are crazy to do That, I mean, and.

I know people because I lived here.

You know, it's just like, it's incredible and impossible and all this stuff. So some listening to this will say, well, I'd never do that, but I.

Love what you just said. You find a different type of impossible game.

And so the principles that are learned as a result of that, you know, that are showing up and the champion.

Shows up in the work.

But can you tell me a little bit more about what happens? How did you benefit from doing 100 miles mentally and physically and emotionally? Oh, it was amazing. It produced an amazing transformation. I went into it thinking, I'll be lucky to do 16 miles. I successfully did 100 at the age that very few people would ever do anything like this. And I hadn't. I wasn't much of a runner. I'd done several marathons in life, but I wasn't a runner. It wasn't like I had a long history to draw upon. It was like, I'm going to do this. I'm going to make this happen. And in the process, I'm going to make this happen. It happened. And from there I went to the Himalayan mountains. I decided I'd run halfway around the Himalayan mountains, the part that has the Annapurna range, 300 mile circuit at very high elevations. And when I say run includes jog and walk and all of that, I cover the ground, you know, I pay my dues and get out there all day. You're going up all day, you're coming down, like all day, not a little hike here. And you learned something that you told me. This is his son speaking.

You learned something that you told me from that that I thought was really good. It was about, not about. There are things that you do sometimes in life. You do things that you believe you can't do. And out of that there was a.

Very profound change for you.

I'm talking about the run itself, the.

100 mile run, right.

There was something about that that you.

Said to me, I don't know if.

You remember it exactly, but that you knew that you don't have, that a person doesn't have to be limited by their beliefs, that they can do what they believe they can't do. You did that once and then you.

Discovered, well, there's an ultra miracle now. And I went over to. I could run through the Grand Canyon, you know, down one side and up the other, and that I never thought about before. And when it was 110 out and I could do things now at a whole new level. That I never imagined I could do. Like the Machu Picchu run and bad water.

How about the bad water 100 miles through the desert?

Well, I got an argument about the bad water with my son about that, so we might as well bring it up.

And begin.

There's this badwater race in California. It's 135 miles. You can look it up on the Internet. I think they still do it. It's billed as the hardest race in America because you start it's usually about 120 and goes up to, let's say under 24, under 25 at the beginning of the race for the first 40 miles. And the temperature. The temperature, yeah, temperature. Most of us have run such an easy interview because it happens. So this hundred. Okay, good. So I say to myself, I'm going to run this. And then I say to myself a couple months later, you're never going to run this ever, ever. Well, next year I'm going to run this. And I say to myself, you're never going to run this ever, ever. And that goes on for three years until suddenly I say, well, if I could run it, if I was going to run it, what would it look like? And so I start breaking it down. Well, first of all, I'd have to cover all of the distance, so I knew what I was dealing with. So. So I went out to Death Valley in segments and I ran and jogged the whole thing and covered a distance. Not at one time like a racer would, with everything they got, but you know, like I slept when I got super tired, but I still did it. And that alone made me feel like, well, I'm a bad water running kind of guy because I covered it every stinking step of the way. And then I ran it in part. I went in the years with the runners, with some of the racers, I ran along with them. I didn't do the race from I'm checking in at the beginning, I'm checking in at the end. I didn't have a team. Most people have a team. I had one guy, Pete, who's coming here to be with me tomorrow, and he supplied the water and the food and I supplied keep going. And that's how he did that. And that's called doing it solo. Solo. Nobody else helping you, grinding it out yourself? Not according to the official race guidelines. Now, I got an ego. None of you probably.

I didn't pick up on any of.

Them, so I thought it'd be nice if people thought I did the race. So I showed up at the start of the race. I got my photo in with the racers at the beginning of the race, and I got my photo in with the racers during the race, and I got the little racy T shirts. And, you know, I could have created a story with anybody that I did the race and have it be believable. But I told everybody. I was careful to tell everybody. Yeah. And I did it solo. And you know what? The fucking racers themselves were inspired. Like, some guy did it solo. Can you believe this old guy? He did it solo. And I thought I did it my way. You know, I did it my way the best I could. And my way the best I could left me really in a mental space that I had accomplished something impossible. And that mental space carried over in other areas of life. So when they say to me, you're going to be dead in a couple hours, probably, it wasn't quite like if they said it to some person who heard, I got a skin cancer to be cut out. My first one ever. Oh, my God. The part about your listeners, or the.

Part about the listeners for this is that you did these great things, and.

You both did these great things.

And I think that's really wonderful. But to me, for some people, maybe learning how to dance is great. And I'm not trying to say the specifics need to be brought in that I'm saying, but just something about, like, I really was trying to point back to the story that you told me later where you said, I did this impossible thing and I discovered that we're.

Not who we think we are, and we're so much more.

And that's what your book's about.

That's what the book's about.

That's what I'm trying to do.

That's what I was on track. That's what the book's about, how we all can capture impossible games. Not some kind of old special guy over here. I want to be clear. There is no old special guy over. There's an old guy over here, and he does some special things. But it's not limited to him. It's not limited. We're all, like, Olympic champions if we're willing to pay our dues or even to explore what the dues might be. We're all incredible champions and have these games in us. Like, Neil took on this world game of creating musical transformation around the world. That's so mad. I. You know, for me, being around Neil uplifts me every time because he got the message. He got the message. And that's what I'd like To have even happen out of this book interview that people get the message that we got no idea what we and older people in our life can accomplish at any age.

Well, that was what I was going to say too, is like, we talk about results, but I'm 70 years old. I've taken not just this in sports, but in international marketing business. I've never done that in my life before. I've never been responsible about money. I didn't want to be. I'm from Atlanta, where a woman's relationship to money is spending it and having it. The men make the money. So it's who you become in the game, in the practice of the game, in the work. It's who you become. It's not just looking down the line to be a resultant. I only took this on to help a friend out. And then I discovered I can travel the world and empower life and lift people up and elevate the quality of life. It's not just a marketing game or making money for me, it really is about the passion of making a difference. And that's what I got from Ron. That's what it is. To live with Ron is to live your life out making a difference. And that's who he is. He elevates the quality of life for anyone in the world. Whether you can have the privilege of sitting next to him or to sit in a room with him or hear him on a screen. It's like your life will never be the same. And who you are, you can't even recognize it becomes like a you you don't know that you can give back to the world and keep that difference alive. That's what you've given to hundreds of thousands of people, Rod is you've given them greatness. You access greatness in people and they go out and they create great greatness all around them and they pass that gift on. That's what's going to live forever. Everybody is that and you give them that.

And I don't want them to be stopped by age or concerns about age. How many times you hear people hear say, I'm too old? Well, find a way to do the ballroom dancing. No matter what your age or whatever you're interested in. Find your personal passion.

Let's talk about your book. Let's talk about aging your ages and the rise like a phoenix from the myth of aging subtitle. Why'd you write the book? What's it about? And let's go through it.

Well, I was scared of getting older. It just seemed to Me that someone had it taken on because I couldn't, you know, I didn't have long to wait. So what can I. Again, taking something on like it's a phosphorus game. Is it possible to alter anything about aging other than our destiny? I knew some people had and were, but was it possible to be more proactive about that and more conscious about it and like that? So I decided not to write the book. I decided to delete a course. And after seven years of leading the course, it seemed to me it was a message that people in the course had gotten incredible value out of. So as Suzy was there and every step of the way, helping with the people get the course. Okay, can we take this course and turn it into a book? Will you have any success in getting a message of transformation out through a book? And I assert not many books do. You know, they got a lot of. I assert not many books do. But that's what I took on, is the transformation of aging. And I really mean like a phoenix, because the Phoenix myth, if you're listening to this, you want to familiarize yourself with the Phoenix myth. It's the only myth on the planet about aging. It's a myth about how to deal with aging. So when I went to Egypt, I had a chance to study about that myth where it started. And so some myths are more real than real life. In other words, they typify a part of us that's more real than we realize, and our regular life is more illusionary than we realize. And I assert that who we've become about aging is very illusionary in contrast to who we can be. So I decided to write the book to find it. Fine tune the course, shorten the course, and get the essential message over the bridge that you and I got power even in the circumstance of aging, which is an horrendously tough circumstance second only to dying. You know, we got some power in this. We got a voice, we got something we can say rather than just go along helpless. And the Phoenix didn't. Then there's a whole series of steps. If you look at it like a train ride, you could say the Phoenix took a ride, a ride from aging to ageless. And there are stations along the way, seven critical stations. And the book's about those seven critical stations and how you can apply them in your life to not just aging, but any condition you're dealing with could even apply to some, like cancer, any condition where you find yourself stuck. So I really wrote the book to contribute, to make a difference, to bring transformation into the world of aging and introduce the distinction of ageless as just my shot across the bow. Introducing the distinction. Others will come along, make it real, and are ready. You know, like Ray, Ray Kurzweil. They're already engaged in it. I'm not arrogant over here sitting them alone. But I want my voice added. And I think my voice has a unique song. And that was the Phoenix had a unique song. So part of each and every code of the book. The book gives you the code for the Phoenix. And here's the bottom line for anybody who doesn't want to buy the book. Learn the Phoenix myth and imagine you're the Phoenix and then see what that opens up about your life.

Okay, Ron, in your book age and you'd age. Let's just talk about the title. What is the difference?

Well, I see the first, so I'm going to babble a little bit.

Yeah, no worries.

The books like holographic, like almost in every section of the book you can get the whole book. So mostly we live aging lives. It's got a predictability to it, sort of like a pattern to it. Most people try to avoid getting sick and they get sicker as they get older. In fact, what I've read is that I'm not asserting, you know, I've read this, that Americans now spend the last seven years of their life dealing with long term aging issues. Might be a disease that's associated with aging or something like that. Now I know there's a group, and I think Ray would signify that group that says, hey, wait a second, what about technology? It's really rolling along. It's really producing a better quality of life. Well, it could be. And that could be true for some. I don't think it's true for all. It may predictably show up someday that way. I don't think it is right now. So the book is about what can we do to start to examine aging that we normally deal with in this country and forward the notion of that like a phoenix. And the myth of the Phoenix was about dealing with aging effectively, that we can forward that and we all can bring forth more power to deal with aging. I don't mean take better vitamins. I mean be like Neil coming out of that course with an experience of having less age than he walked into the course with. So that's what I mean. The title choose is critical because the first distinction of the Phoenix myth, the first station on the train ride of the Phoenix, is you got to choose. If I don't choose to do anything about aging. Everything's going to be an accident, and that's fine. But let's be clear. It'll be the accident of aging life. Now, what would you say is the normal aging life? What would you say aging looks like? Anybody want to say what aging looks like?

You know, if I had to think about it, and just from my American perspective and observation, which is purely my perspective, it's not. It doesn't say that.

It's what give you American, though. Yeah.

Is deterioration.

Yeah, yeah, exactly. That's a big part of what's there. Automatically, without even thinking about it, like in the background, people relate to each other as they get older, like they're deteriorating. Yeah.

I mean, you even. Who was one of the actresses that actually spoke at. Where was that? You actually tell the story in here. She had the.

The one who was in.

Yes, exactly.

Yeah.

Where she got a standing ovation for talking about the effects of just, you know, getting older in a very funny way. But at the same time, that was a perspective that most people consider. Oh, they're just going to.

They identify with it.

Right.

They stand it up and gave her an ovation because they identify with it. Yeah. As you get older, you'll have false teeth. And now I'm not here to change America's dental patterns, but never mind. Maybe you could look at your dental history in a different way. It might have an impact on your aging if there's mercury in your teeth disintegrating. And so there are actions we can take, obviously, but it's more about being. Once you're being. I'm ageless, the actions fall out. I didn't figure out jumping out of an airplane. I figured out today I'm going to be ageless.

So let me go back to that page is page 54. When Julie Andrews turned 69, she commemorated her birthday on October 1, 2009, with a special appearance at Manhattan's Radio City Music Hall. And so she had this. I'll just read the first paragraph.

Sure.

It's like maalocks and nose drops and needles for knitting walkers and handrails and new dental fittings. Bundles of magazines tied up in a string. These are a few of my favorite things. And then it goes on to have this whole song. And then you write. Ms. Andrews received a standing ovation that lasted for more than four minutes, with the audience demanding repeated encore. She put a voice to the world of aging as we know it. But is that world the only possibility? So the reason I wanted to read that is possibility. I mean, here you have spent so much of your life in the transformation business, the knowledge business, but the transformation business and opening people up to possibilities and enrolling people in possibilities. So let's just take a look at that word possibility. What does that mean to you? What could it mean to people listening?

It could mean anything as opposed to something. It could mean anything's up on the table for grabs and is available as opposed to nothingness. It could mean that I could win a world championship with powerlifting when I'm a weak old 63 year old man. That's a possibility. Not predictable. It's going to happen. Definitely not. I'm not talking about predictability, that's something different. I'm talking about possibility. Napoleon Hills said at anything the mind can conceive and believe it can achieve. So what can I conceive of? Like that's what I mean by possibility. What can you conceive of when you look in your life, what can you conceive of? A lot. A lot. That's what I mean by possibility. And then that which you still can't conceive of. Let's throw that into the pot and let's imagine we could throw everything into the pot. Now what? Well, I could conceive of the possibility that I transcend stage four lung cancer. Not many people have maybe 1%, 2%, but I could conceive of that possibility. Well, I think you can.

So for instance, right now you're three years in, almost four years in, maybe.

No, I think about three, three stage.

Four lung cancer, which is a cancer my father died of and my mother when I was four years old died of a stomach cancer which you overcame 22 years ago. And so these are diseases and you even refer to in your book that when you started to contemplate aging as a disease. And there's a lot of possibility and there's probability. Although as you explain in your book, most doctors that you were talking with, their possibility was there's no way in hell you're going to overcome this.

There's just probability. I'm going to bet on possibility.

So the reason I bring this up is for people listening. What would be your hope of your message in your book? Who did you write it for? Other than you can say everybody. But there are certain people that are going to listen and other people won't. There are some people that will the possibility they will latch onto that and they will transform their lives very much like Neil has. And many of the people, I mean you've personally led what, over 200,000 people, maybe more.

I lost count. Yeah.

So what would be your hope for people hearing you right now and for the book? Well, as it relates to, you know, transformation.

Yeah, as it relates to transformation, bottom line, that you can take any circumstance you're dealing with and transform it, and you can cause you have a hand in the result of it. You realize that. And if you realize that and you choose to do something about it, you will be guided into what to do. You'll be guided. You won't have to spend long hours figuring things out. You will have tapped into that part of yourself that you love so much from tm. You'll tap into that space, that void, in which you can get direct access to the clear part of the mind and the being and have it available to you. And in that area, place, void, space, all's possible, just all now takes a little bit of conversation to get oneself usually to that place in the face of the agreements out there about how it is. So a doctor looks me in the eyes and says, you're going to be dead in six months. You know, that rattles. That wobbles me now when I've heard it seven times. It doesn't wobble me as much anymore. And I've got through each one of those times. It's like, oh, well, the world's going to end tomorrow. What else is new, you know? Fine, tune me on the question. Well, no, let me ask you.

Let me go a little bit deeper with this then. So what in your mind, Ron, is.

The difference between a book for you, Sid? Well, yeah, that.

But I want to just what you're talking about right now. What's the difference between grandiose thinking, being insane, completely rejecting reality, what's in front of you, versus saying, you know what? I just choose to go down a different path where everyone else. I mean, do you follow what I'm saying?

I think there's seven steps to get there. It's not just grandiose thinking into the conversation. And the first step is to choose. So let's suppose I say I'm gonna overcome stage four cancer automatically. 99% medical people are gonna write me off as a nutcase because they know my medical history. Okay, but what's that got to do with reality? The fact that people don't go along with me? Or I decide to create a different reality that's totally insane by normal standards. What's it got to do with anything? Well, what it's got to do with anything is you and I live in an agreement reality. And by Agreement. We've decided certain things are more real than others. More things people say are real, we agree are real. Now we got all kinds of instances where that doesn't bear out, but nevertheless we live like that. It's called an agreement reality. And in agreement reality you take your lead from the authorities and the experts and they kind of set the pace and define what's possible. So I go in and see a doctor and he says, you know, and most doctors are good about this. I don't mean to be whatever about doctors, pejorative, like whatever word you use. I got a son who's a doctor, I've got two daughters in laws who are doctors. So I'm not against doctors, but I am against a blind medical establishment that doesn't question things. I am against not questioning and blindly accepting what can't be validated by scientific experimentation. I'm against that. So when I went to talk to a doctor about chemo at MD Anderson, largest one of the largest cancer clinics in the country, I said to him, where's the evidence this will do me any good here? You're recommending I put a poison in my body and there's no evidence it'll do me any good? Well, I got some evidence. Some of my patients feel better now. I want scientific evidence that somebody got well. Well, 5% seem to get well. Not good enough for me to bet my life on. I'm going to bet on possibility, not predictability. That's just me personally. I'm not advocating that for anybody else. And you know, if your brother in law is the top oncologist in the country, you might listen to him. In fact, I went to one of the top oncologists in the country two months ago here in Utah at Huntington Hospital, Huntington Cancer Clinic. So I include that in the equation. So I'm not a total nut case. Now he ratcheted me up to at least six months. So I've gained a lot of ground from a few years. You know, he ratcheted me up. He said, whatever you're doing, keep doing. You're getting better results than almost anybody I work with. So. Okay, good. Well, so I don't turn into a complete nutcase is I include that part of reality. Agreement reality.

So how powerful is this, the mind? Where does this come from for you? Because you obviously, I mean with your life of pretty much living full out. Most people don't live like you. Most people do not think like you.

I don't know. You know, when you say that, you guys are introducing me To a me. Because for me, I just do me, you know. So you're introducing me to a me. So most people, you said, don't live like that. All I can say.

Let me speak from my own experience. I've had pretty severe knee and shoulder pain over the last couple of years, Right. And I had seen some of the top specialists in the world, MRIs, saying you got a torn meniscus in your knee. You, you know, I didn't want to get surgery, so I was doing everything I could to try to rehab it, fix it, eliminate the pain through, you know, injections, you know, prolotherapy, stem cell stuff, you know, manipulations, acupuncture, you name it. Nothing was making the pain go away. I've gone to some of the top doctors in the country saying, you have to get surgery. We could go on doing squats with 185 pounds on a knee that seems to be strengthening because I realized that I have something that Dr. John Sarno discovered many years ago called TMS, the mind body syndrome, Tension myositis syndrome, which is basically caused by repressed emotions, predominantly anger and rage. We live in a world where literally hundreds of millions, billions, possibly, probably trillions, are treating an epidemic of pain that did not exist 50 years ago.

Invested in an epidemic of pain.

Absolutely. And, you know, on the short period of time I'm going to talk about it here to people that have not read one of Dr. John Sarno's book or a book called the Pain Deception, they would think, well, this guy's crazy. And I have many friends that are doctors and chiropractors and acupuncturists and massage therapists, and they are dispensing advice and they are treating people for things that in many cases are not caused by.

What they're treating causes you to cringe.

And so I literally quit going and getting treatments and I quit listening to doctors, finally.

And you know what?

The pain has gone away. It's been the most trans. And, you know, if someone else said this to me and I didn't experience the pain myself in all of the thousands of dollars I'd spent and the hundreds of hours I spent trying to deal with it and the distraction in my mind, but realizing that, wow, you know, the human mind is incredibly valuable or incredibly destructive, depending on how you direct it and depending on who you take your advice from. And none of this is being said is because, yeah, I mean, I think a lot of doctors, I think many of them are well intentioned. I mean, it's not like the evil people that are out there trying to have people die. Oh, no, it's just a lot of it. They just don't realize there's other possibilities.

And that's what I'm trying to get at. When I say rise like a phoenix. Phoenix had no limits. It came from the very, you know, even tougher than a pain, aging. And it transcended it.

Well, you say one thing in the book here, where on page 47 you were talking about during my meditations. I thank the cancer for the lessons it taught me.

In fact, that was the first.

Yeah, that was the first.

First cancer 20 years ago. Yeah.

And you go on to say, in fact, during my healing journey, I made it a point to relate to my cancer as a teacher, not an enemy, not an internal alien that had to be poisoned, burned or cut out.

Right.

Explain that.

Well, I think there's was at that time an automatic paradigm around cancer, which is burn it out, cut it out, poison it out. It's an enemy. It's a paradigm of war. I call it the American paradigm. You're over going to come by force and violence. I don't think that may be the most valid approach to a kind of an illness like this. I think more. The mind and spirit approach is much more valid. Do you want any more explanation to that?

Well, so depending on what someone's belief is, you know, spirit approach, tapping into a higher. I mean, are you talking about God or are you talking about what.

It varies from person to person. But I'm talking about the closest thing I could say is the void space, the space that's available to all of us when we get ourselves out of the way.

Okay, that's a good one. Getting yourself out of the way and.

Especially all the knowledge that's been accumulated by agreement that everybody believes is real and half of them know isn't. But having a vested interest in getting others to believe it's real. You can't discount the incredible power of the financial vested interest to keep things the same in every aspect of life. So I wrote the book for people who want to at least have a rope ladder to get out of the room of keeping everything the same, whatever it is, whether it's about your illness or whether it's about your pain or whether it's about your relationship or about aging, which is the kind of secret pathway I'm using into this transformational possibility. But really the book's more than just about aging. Well, I'd like talk because I would.

Really want to encourage everyone listening to this to get your book aging or ageless, because this literally is the byproduct of a. Of an event that you led for eight years. I mean, there's a tremendous. I mean, there's thousands of hours of work accumulated into this book. So what will.

Plus all the people who are in the course, all the work they did on their own lives to validate what we're talking about and make it real, you know, no matter how much the doc talks about your pains will go away if nobody's pains went away. Well, we can talk forever about it, but there's a certain validation in it actually happening. That's what I love so much about Neil's conversation. You know, he's been living it. He's been applying it in his life. Applying what? Well, the Phoenix code, which has seven steps.

Can you go through those steps?

I can go through them. I'd love to go through them. Every time I. I go, I just love them more.

Let's do it.

So the first step is to choose. So choose what? Well, whatever you're up to that you want to have happen. So in your case, you wanted to get rid of a leg pain. Yep. And shoulder pain. Simplified. And shoulder pain. Leg and shoulder pain. That's one thing to want to get rid of it. Another thing to choose. I'm going to get rid of this. If I have to scour the earth and find a person who knows, or someone who knows someone who knows, I am going to cause this to happen. I'm going to call that choice. Is that safe to say?

Absolutely.

Now then, the second step is. I call it a step of completion. So in order for you to go around exploring new openings and possibilities like body emotion, connection and stuff, you got to kind of set aside a lot of stuff you've already learned. I should be taking these treatments every other week. I should be doing this. I should be doing that. I need cortisone shots. You need to take some of that and set that aside, or you'd have no room for anything new. I'm going to call that completion. But completion goes further than that. For you, for example, completion includes finding those instances of rage or suppressed anger. I'm just flying in the dark here. I don't know what it includes. Pretty accurate, but whatever. And operating to complete that stuff and.

Kind of like what you even say in the book. I started realizing my body is trying to give me messages here. I'm trying to avoid something, and I'm going to an authority figure who is giving me a structural diagnosis. When what's really causing it is psychological.

Right. You were, as I say, looking for the keys in the wrong place. You've heard the old story about the guy who lost his keys in Persia and he gets all his friends with him and they're looking for the keys. And finally a friend says, are you sure you lost the keys here under the lamp? They're standing on the street lamp. He said, no, but there's no light anyplace else. So it's like that. They keep looking for the light in a place the answer in a place where there's no light. So you got it. Let me back up. You don't have to. Anything but a very important, important element is completion. Now, that could include completing. You know, I'm bug about this Joe crap in your environment that's weighing you down, that in its own way is sending you a message daily about what a jerk you are. Or in its own way is sending a message every day. That's not, you know, if you got a crutch in the corner, that's sending you a message. That wasn't a very good example. No, no.

I think it is a good example from the stand. Well, at least for me. One of the things that I had to choose to do is quit going to places that were reinforcing that something was wrong with me. And by going to doctors and going down these roads of diagnosing me, because anyone that's going to get an MRI or is it getting older is going to show degeneration, is going to show tears. And there are plenty of people that are trained to look for something wrong so that they can try to make sense of something they don't know how to make sense of.

Either that or make a buck. Joe, of course.

There'S a line I heard years ago that. And I don't know your thoughts on it, considering having gone through cancer and going through cancer right now, having cancer, going through it, whatever you would call it, that they'll never find a cure for cancer because four times as many people make a living off of it than die from it.

Well, the war on cancer is an absolute failure in terms of just measuring people recovering. In fact, now they won't even use those words anymore. They won't even announce. You go to doctor. He's not going to say, I'm going to get. You're going to get over this cancer. Unless it's a skin cancer or maybe a rare form of, you know, testicle cancer. But for the most part, they avoid that conversation. Well, I don't I want to know what it's going to take to cure. I haven't given it my best in that area. I really haven't. Because I. God. You know, Joe, after you hear it so many times, it starts to beat you down, that you're going to die, this and that, and you're a thing. Da, da, da. If you don't watch your mind and your spirit, it starts to really enroll you. And then there are things I keep around, like people tell me about. Take watch this and watch that. That's now in my environment. And if I'm not completing that stuff, Joe, to the best of my ability, not constantly and frenetically or frantically, but to the best of my ability, cleaning out my space. You can relate to that, right?

Yes.

If it's an emotional space, if it's a physical space, if it's a space of envy, resentments, regrets. I cover this all in the book how to go about doing this. But that's the second critical aspect for me, is to complete things. Now, once you complete things, you said to go through these. And I'm going, once you complete these, then you got some space. And, Joe, you love space. You know, that's what you get from tm.

But there's more Transcendental meditation for anyone that doesn't know.

Yeah, And I want to talk about that. I'm looking at that. As for me, I want to explore that with you. It sounds great.

Yeah, it's awesome.

Yeah. And so now I got some room in different. Let me back up a second. There are different approaches I can take to get my hands on in space. Mainly to get my hands out of space and to be present and there, which now opens the miraculous connections of the universe to me. So I consider this a real pivotal station that the Phoenix got into. And its metaphor is the Phoenix sitting in its nest and burning. It burns up its whole past and gets into nothing. There's nothing there anymore. No Phoenix, just nothing and ashes. Maybe in some of the myths, in another myth, a tiny worm emerges, but virtually nothing. And that is a pivotal. Most disciplines have this in it. I can't think of any that don't. If they're really not religious, but they're spiritual. I think any real spiritual religion talks, not directly or indirectly, but maybe indirectly about space. And, you know, there's saintliness in Catholicism, there's whirling dervishes in the Muslim. There's all different ways of aspecting this space business. And they're all valid. They all make a difference. I could Maybe go to Lourdes and get some space, you know, some healing shrine or something. You follow what I'm saying?

I believe I'm following as best I can, yeah.

Okay, good. I mean, you have the three so far, and if not, you can read the book, choose the other pages and review it.

Well, of course, I look at this as kind of an overview and a summary of what you're doing. And to go deeper with this, pick up the book. I mean, it would be. I think it would be kind of silly for someone to listen to this and then not invest the time into your life's work here that you've documented and aging your agents.

Now, Joe, after you got into nothing and you actually started to say earlier, who am I going to be? Well, I'm going to be pain free in the shoulder and legs. One leg or both legs?

Just one leg. But I'll tell you, though, over through the last couple of years, while I was going through most of the pain, my wrist hurt at times, the bottom of my feet hurt. And every time I would go somewhere, they would get a diagnosis. So you have arthritis, you have plantar fasciitis. You know, I just started having all of these pains, which is called the symptom imperative is what Dr. John Sarno, who first identified TMS, would call it. Whereas if you go and get treated, there's the placebo effect. It would literally move to another part of the body. I mean, if you think about this, you know, he wrote in one of his books about an article where of all the ulcers. Because there used to be an ulcer epidemic in the United States, which has now been replaced by back pain epidemics. But there's been nothing in recorded history other than the last 50 years where there's ever been back pain epidemics. But there's all kinds of excuses for it.

So as you talk right now, I'm really in touch with the world, the incredible world in the 150 recordings so far that are available, you know, in your podcast.

Yes.

Yeah.

As we said, just an incredible world. If someone needs to take on pain, if someone needs to take on aging, there's just an incredible world available to people who are willing just to choose. It starts with, you got to choose it. Once you've chosen it, the world opens up. Okay, let's complete what's still there in my space, in my way. Okay, good. How about spending as much time as possible in no time or in space, in nothing. Okay, Next station, when I get through, that is. What's the life I'm going to create. So if we apply this to you and your personal life, what became available was it squats, a lot of weight squats that you couldn't do before.

It was not only that, but it was resuming activity that I had stopped doing that was important not only for my health and strength and how I physically felt, but how I mentally felt. Because you take away the ability to move, to do stuff. That's replaced by paranoia, it's replaced by fear. In my case, it's replaced by addictive thinking. It's replaced by escapism, it's replaced by anxiety. And so these outlets were all of a sudden being overpowered by this pain. And it was my mind just not wanting to feel certain things. So it made it hurt. And it's very bizarre. But just learning that, wow, this is. And again, I have to go back to. I know a lot of very well known doctors. I'm a guy that is in the position to where I meet incredible people. And when someone has authority, even if they're giving you the wrong advice or the wrong diagnosis, you tend to believe them. If they deliver it with confidence, if they deliver it with quote, unquote, background, with degree.

My last cancer diagnosis before the last one, that was about two years ago at St. Vincent's Medical Center. I went in to see this doctor. The walls were covered with diplomas and validations of his standing in the world of pulmonology and lungs. And I say. He said, well, I get bad news. I said, okay, you know, I'd heard I probably had lung cancer. We just got a biopsy to validate it. And he said, yeah. And I said, well, what are my odds? He said, I never heard of anybody recovering from this. Now when he said that, and there's this weight of the world of agreement, Joe, I gotta swim to get out of that current.

Absolutely, yeah, yeah, absolutely. Because you're in the raging river versus on the sidelines. You got that you have to pull yourself out.

And so much is automatic. Automatic thinking that gets pulled in and thoughts that get pulled in. Kind of like what I was pointing at with aging. Automatic. But instead, like a phoenix, you can transform it. That's we're looking at. And we said, you first choose, then you get into completion. Then we said, you give us space. Now, the next one I ran into recently, we're having an interview today. But as Neil knows, a couple months ago he could barely hear me. In fact, nobody could hear me above a whisper for five months. And I didn't choose to do everything I could to find a voice I heard. This goes along with your cancer territory. End of the conversation. And I lived with that. But then at some point, I don't know what it was I chose. I'm going to speak again. Maybe this round we're going to have an interview. But you know what? I found some of the world's best voice people, and they measured me and said, you got zero voice. I said, is there anything we can do about it? Oh, yeah, there's a new technology just came out. We'll take and we'll shift your vocal cords. Now, people can't see this, but your vocal cords, one of them is permanently paralyzed. So every time you try to talk, all the air comes out of your lungs, and so you're breathless and you can't talk. What we can do is move that cord that's paralyzed into a permanent closed position. Now, the other cord has maximum flexibility. You can get back 50 to 80% of your voice.

So that's what you did.

That's what I did with surgery. I'm still doing it. It's not surgery. That's a little elevated. Let's call it a procedure where they go in and they put a needle through my neck and into my vocal cord, and they inject my vocal cord with something. And don't say Botox, because everyone says Botox, but chalk, like substance that doesn't deteriorate under the impact of the body. And so we injected it, and it got better, and then it got worse. So two weeks ago, I went back, I said, let's do it again. Is there any chance it can get better? Yeah. 50. 50. Let's go for it. That is you in that story. I think you can capture a number of things. One is choosing. One is completing the past. I can't do anything about this. I got cancer. One is the space of nothing, which I haven't said much about here, but it's in there. And then who am I going to be? I'm going to be somebody with a voice. So that's the fourth thing. What's going to come out of this? I'm going to be able to talk. What's going to come out of this? I'm going to use my legs and shoulders, arms, in new ways and. And recover old ways that I haven't been able to do for God knows how long. So see how these dovetail together, Joe, how they fit together?

Totally.

And one thing that I want to be cognizant of, too, is delivering. And this even sounds weird, Saying it, which is why I want to say it in front of you, which is the last thing I'd ever want to do is deliver false hope to somebody. And at the same time, I want to deliver massive hope and deliver possibility. Exactly. Possibility.

Forget hope. Possibility. Massive possibility. So even when hope is lost, can I still generate possibility? Because hope implies somebody else is going to come along and save your ass. It's implied in hope. The hope help paradigm is a ho. Somebody else is going to do it for me paradigm. I want a maximum how much can I do for myself paradigm. Not to exclude others. Definitely not. We can both see that one work to include others, but not to exclude me in the equation. If I hadn't chosen to do something about my voice, if you hadn't chosen to do something about not tolerating your leg shoulder pain, nothing would have happened. That's how these things all tie together. And then there's, who am I going to be now, Joe? The next station? The next step is, okay, what are you going to bring to the world out of it? In other words, what's going to be different? Now, what I hear, I don't know much how you done this, but. But I hear you inspiring others with possibility, medical possibility, in the face of what could normally be seen as no medical possibility. Dealing with pain, that's a message that wouldn't have been there without this. I hear you creating that. And that's the fifth thing. What am I creating? And just to shorten things so I don't leave anybody feeling breathless and running. The sixth one is connection. And God. Can I count on you for that? But most people, you can't. Like you said, most people don't live lives like me or you, especially you. And my, you know, my having this being here at this meeting is willing to be connected. Because when you first called, my thought was, who the hell would find anything interesting in my story or life? This is bizarre. This is what my mind first came up with. What's Joe's angle? How's he going to make a fortune out of me that I don't know about?

I'm telling you, Joe, total exploitation of the cancer story here, right?

It's so bizarre what comes up. And so I look and see, okay, what do I intend to create out of this? Well, I intend to create an expansion of the conversation of even an aging, but not limited to aging. We've got this enormous power to transform our lives, including if you got pain in your shoulder and arm, shoulders and legs, you can't get rid of including if you got stage four cancer. But again, I like what you said. I'm not here to say anything different about what anybody's doctor says. Medically, I'm not qualified in that area. I'm not a doctor. There are doctors in my family. I consult them. I go to regular medical oncologists. I consult the best in the field. That's what I did about my voice. I don't sit here alone speculating in my mind, what can I do? Oh, I can drink lemon juice and honey. I hear that's good for your voice. And the last thing, Joe, is service. That's the last station. The more I can make a difference with others, the more the universe makes a difference with me. I truly believe in that philosophy. I stole it from Buckminster Fuller. He was a master, that one. He said, I'm going to have my life make the biggest difference possible because then the universe will want to keep me around. The bigger difference my life makes, the bigger reason for me to be living. And those are the seven. Choose complete space. Create yourself. Create your results in the world that's a little beyond yourself contribution and service. So have I reviewed them to your. At least previewed them to your satisfaction?

Absolutely. And I think it's a good setup for people getting a copy of your book. Now I'm going to ask you a few more questions. What I do want to do, though, is our dear friend Neil Moore, who you introduced me to, who you've known for 26 years, has been here all morning and flew in and has to literally get on a plane. I want to have Neil give any other perspective or anything for the listeners or anything you'd like to share based on what you've heard Ron talk about before we started recording and during.

Yeah, well, Ron exemplifies being a visionary. And when I break it down, the thing that's been most compelling for me out of my relationship with you is that you're a person who perpetually imagines futures. And you've discovered the ability to articulate those futures, to make them real. You speak them outside of yourself. And you have this extraordinary ability to enroll people in that vision in such a compelling way that it's real for them, and it's so real for them that it draws them into action. And then you also have that ability to be able to identify what are the resources and the tools and the attributes and the skills that I need in order to fulfill on that. And then I'm going to bring the last component, and that is I'm going to commit myself to the fulfillment of this. Regardless of the story or the circumstances or whatever happens, I'm going to remain committed to this until I bring that to fruition. And for me, that's the essence of who you are for me and for everybody who you've contributed to over the decades that I've known you. And I think that you captured that in your book. You really give everybody access to what it means to be a visionary, to imagine a possibility and then provide them with a step by step guideline. You provide them with the canoe to be able to paddle down that river of possibility.

That's great. And I love, even on the riverbank, just thinking about going down the river, they got a paddle in their hands. They may have to create a canoe, but they got a paddle. Any.

Just thank you for being just the real embodiment of possibility. Ron, you're an extraordinary human being and thank you for capturing it in this, distilling it into this body of work. You know, you leave the possibility of living on for others. Thank you.

You're welcome. You're welcome. My dear friend.

I love you.

I love you. God bless you and your wife and the work you're up to. And safe journeys.

You bet.

I didn't say clearly how they kept me alive. Okay. But I want to just underline that again. And they kept me alive. And Dr. Smith and Todd, they're just amazing people there at the Delta Institute. And I don't recommend everybody finds their own way with this stuff, but they certainly empowered me until I had this latest breakdown of extreme.

Pneumonia.

Pneumonia. I keep forgetting that pneumonia. And I still work with them. And I also want to acknowledge the charity that I just am in love with, and that is a children's charity called Cherish Our Children and headed up by Julie All Price. But Julie went over to Romania when the kids were in the warehouses over there, no possibility of anything, and said, what can I do as a little Western American housewife here to make a difference with hundreds of thousands of children that have been forgotten and neglected here in this country? And she started there and built up a worldwide charity. And I just. Last race I ran in Death Valley was for that charity. So Cherish Our Children International. And you can get at it. You can look it up on the Internet. And if you feel in your bones you like to get closer to children and you want to contribute to children, and that's one aspect of your generosity. Well, you can start there. That's an amazing place to start. We take the money and it gets to the children in Africa and America and around the world.

Okay, Ron, now that we've covered the seven keys of the Phoenix myth, right?

And then there's the code too. You remember, that's a part of it gets a little confusing. I have trouble keeping track of myself. But the code is to put myself in the place of the Phoenix. So the Phoenix spent space and time in space. So I spend time in space. I mean, in space, primarily, the Phoenix was willing and is immortal. So I take the point of view that I'm immortal. And what does that open up if I'm immortal? Something different than if I'm really just trying to hang on to my mortality. Okay, so do you when you hear.

Have you said to yourself, I'm ready to die? Or does that.

I was ready to die four days ago.

Okay.

I told the doctors I wanted to die. I told people I knew I wanted to die. I felt so shitty and lousy now. It was sort of a little audacious because really, what was going on with me, Severe case of pneumonia. I never had severe pneumonia before. And I'm not very good at suffering and all that stuff. I'm just not good at that.

You know, I would.

I don't know if I would.

If I say I beg to differ. I mean, you ran a hundred mile marathon when you were 67 years old. You've endured and you put yourself into, you know, some pretty hard situations. You.

Well, that jump out of the airplane.

How long ago did you jump out of the airplane?

A week ago. Well, five days ago. Five days ago.

Okay, you're 81 years old with stage four cancer and you.

And I got strapped into a big strong guy tight and I got my. My breathing's already constricted now. They tighten me in with this guy. I can't get air. I can maybe get 20% of constricted air breathing available to me for eight minutes while I'm waiting to. Well, 10 while I'm waiting to drop and dropping. And it was one of the most panicky moments, extended moment of my life. Am I going to get through the next. You know, my parachute hasn't opened. Is it going to open? And I got to the ground and when they unstrapped me, I don't know if you guys have done skydiving. When they unstrapped me, there was a certain relief. I could at least get a little air.

I've skydived twice because I've. I had a fear of heights. And so I figured that might be a smart way to Help out.

It doesn't bother me. Oh, yeah. Okay, good. I got it. Did it work?

A little bit, but it still scared the shit up.

I could get rid of that for you. So we got things we can teach each other.

Excellent, excellent. Look, there are so many things that I could ask you and I'm happy to keep going on this. What would you recommend I ask you? What could I be asking you that would elicit.

I think you could ask me what. Who can I be in the rest of my life?

Okay, let's start with that as it relates to the people listening here. Who can I be?

Who can they be in the rest of my life that will make the greatest difference for me and others? And that throws me in the realm of possibility, doesn't it?

Absolutely.

Yeah. So for me, who I can be is someone who's committed to getting a message out rather than I'm going to pass out a book now and then that I wrote to people who I think might be interested. That's different. And I'm committed that there's a message here that will make a difference for people. And I want as many people to get it as possible. The message. Even if I got to give those books away, I had a friend, a guy trained, a doctor, William Greenberg in Wisconsin, and he wrote a book when. When doctors published books themselves. And he got a basement full of books because he wanted to be a good publisher or have a bent this cellar. And nobody buys his book. It was called get off the pedestal and it's written to doctors. And just like the name implies, stop being an arrogant prick and come down and be with the people. Well, you can imagine how many copies that book sold. I don't know, maybe five. And so he's got a basement full of books and one day he gets this idea, why don't I just give these books away? They're not selling anyhow. So he gave them away to every thought would be interested with a coupon. If you want more books, 10 copies of this book, you know, send him this coupon and $27.95 and I'll send you the books. He become a best seller author that way by giving it away. Now, we've talked about that in marketing a few times, right, that one of the approaches might be giving it away. Rather than sign up here and I'm going to milk you on the Internet list for the next 20 years. You know, maybe just. And I know Brandon's a master, that he's a master of giving value. Just awesome at that one So I would say ask me anything that will empower you that you sense might empower you or you're not sure would empower you to open up a whole new world for the rest of your life. For the rest of Joe Polish's life. That was unpredictable when you walked in here.

So along those lines, you talk about transformation.

I do.

Word that gets thrown around a lot. Certainly I want to beginning. What's that?

I was there at the beginning. Yeah, but you know, it's funny, it's in the Bible. I never would have thought transformations in the Bible, but it's in the King James Bible.

What does it say about it?

Well, it's just, you know, Paul got transformed on the road to Damascus. So I'm not sure what it says, but I remember reading the Word and I think it's connected with Paul and the road to Damascus. I've read it several times in the Bible, in Paul's writings. Brothers, sisters, we are transformed. Now. It doesn't mean quick change. It doesn't mean change. It means like you didn't see a possibility for freedom from pain in your shoulder and legs other than pursuing the normal medical paradigms.

Right. And that was not working.

And then you did see a difference. I'm going to call that having a transformation where you're seeing is altered and shifted and now there's a different world available to you because you see differently.

So I want to talk about. Because the best words I know to describe them get thrown around a lot. But I just want to ask you about success and failure. Like how would you. What is failure to you?

Failure to me, I'm winging this. Okay. Is like giving up prematurely. Failure to me is like saying I failed. There are cases where people live their whole life never succeeded, but died being a success. Let me give you an example. Recently there was a guy in the Olympics here in Utah and I don't know his name, I wish I did. But how he was in the Olympics was they gave him the torch to carry to the stadium. Not the final leg because they give everybody a leg and you know how they work that politically and all that stuff. But he had a leg. And he also had some kind of cancer stage, blah blah, blah blah blah. Where holding 26 pound torch over your head is not O hum. And you know what? He did it. And you know what that day contributed to millions, billions all over the world. And that day his life was a success. Even though he died later in the day. For me he had a successful life with that.

What is the Difference between dying as a failure versus dying as a success. You just gave that example. I think that's a great example.

And we're talking about ageless dying. We could be talking about ageless dying and aging. Dying.

Right. That's exactly what I'm. What I'm going down that path.

That's what I mean. Aging dies.

And you said it better than me.

I would say it's just dying normally ages. Dying, I would say, has elements in it or, you know, big or small of really glorious victories on your way to death, included on your way to death. So for me, like, this interview is a glorious victory of people getting to find out that here's a guy over here who stands for a possibility, maybe they do too, of a different relationship with aging or any serious thing we're dealing with. You can apply these seven steps to any serious thing. My relationship doesn't work. Okay. Did you choose to have it work?

Really?

I mean, telling the truth to yourself? Yeah, I did. Okay, good. Have you completed everything in the past that didn't work about it? Have you given up making her wrong? Well, I don't know. I make it wrong a little bit for this. Okay, good. Have you spent time like my wife and I, this was third marriage. And about six months into it, I was clear it was never going to work. Never, ever, ever going to work. And I'm an on again and off again Christian, Mormon, religion guy. Mostly off, mostly spiritual guy. Okay. But I was bankrupt. And I was back in the east coast and I was leading a course back there, and I just was bankrupt with my relationship. And I went to what they call Mormons call a spirit sacred grove, where Joseph Smith got a message from God. And I went to the sacred grove and I said, God, I am bankrupt. I don't know what to do about relationship at all. I just stand bankrupt. Would you please help me? And we were stuck in some right, wrong position. And we got through it. And from that day on, the relationship got better. And I still get stuck. And when I get stuck, I just pray about it. And it shifts. One or the other of us gets off. It gives up our positionality and we have a new opening, a new freedom that to me is like success. An opening in an area of my life where there was no possibility of an opening. None, zero, zip, none. And it's not like I'm portraying. We got far from a perfect marriage. And we're in it. We're in it. But you know what? I can count on us to get through it. Even as Bad as it gets. It got really bad 3 weeks ago @ a restaurant. That's it. You want a divorce? Yeah. Okay. Well, you know, and little prayer and a couple hours later. Well, really, when I look, I don't want a divorce, and somebody got off it. I think where people get divorced is one of them doesn't get off it. They arrogantly push ahead. I don't mean arrogantly. I mean eagerly push ahead. I said, this is the way it's going to be, even though my heart's hurting and I don't want to go this way. So they deny themselves. I want to find myself as I'm dying, job in every dimension. And that to me, what the opportunity of dying is to find my.

Life. Where does forgiveness come into.

This? Well, it's a pivotal point. Like my son here, Ron, he had a story about his mother beat him when he was five. Whatever we'd say beat means. It might vary if I tried to pin him down, and it would. So he had a story about that. And I worked with him several months. His mother's in a place where they put people who got no mind anymore. And I would ask him, have you forgiven your mother? Well, no. How can you forgive someone who beats a little boy? Then I'd ask him again, have you forgiven your mother? Because you're not going to have a full life until you do. I've worked enough with people to know that resentment and regret can transcend anything in terms of aliveness and possibility. And I worked with him until one day he said, chose, I forgive my mother. Whatever went down came down. She was where she was at, I was where I was at. Whatever happened, I forgive her totally. And he had a major transformation next day. Major, major, major transformation in his life to the sense of getting huge moments of enlightenment. I've been with people, Joe, who were in concentration camps, still surviving from the Second World War as children and hating the Germans. And their whole life was colored with that hate and that anger. And their whole life meaning their present life and the people they live with now were contaminated with that same kind of hatred and anger, not necessarily applied to them personally, but applied to them personally because they had to live with it. And I saw these people give up hating the enemy. And when they gave up hating the enemy, Joe, miracles just happened. We're so invested in an emotional make wrong hatred paradigm that we're gonna find something wrong with someone on the planet and blow the shit out of them all the time. Joe, that's sick. And I want to go on record That I say, that's sick on us as human beings. That's not our destiny. It's not how we were meant to live our lives. We're meant to live our lives as generous, kind, forgiving people who are beyond. We're like Olympic champions. You know how they get enlivened on the day they win the championship. That's who we really are. Not creeping around, scared of each other, blowing each other out. Joe, for me, that's the biggest thing I got to deal with now, is my own willingness to find responsibility in it all. But I know it's there, and I know freedom's there. To give up making anybody wrong about any of this stuff. So you can see, I got a gang to give up making.

Wrong. No, it's good. It's good. This is powerful. How do you love. How do you love your life? How do you love other people? Where. How do you. I mean, you talk about this ability to be a champion. I mean, there's so much capacity that we have as human. We can tap into it. And I think you're, you know, just how you've led so many people to the possibilities that. The possibilities of love, the possibility of freedom, the possibility of transformation, the possibility of eliminating suffering, letting go of the suffering. So let's talk about.

That. Letting go of.

Suffering. Letting go of suffering. And I want to talk about love also, but I think it's all.

Tied together to recontextualize it. My brother, son just shot himself about maybe four weeks.

Ago. Is he.

Dead? Committed suicide. Yeah. My brother suffers now. It's expected if someone close to you dies, you'll suffer, because that's how it is. The question is it going to be suffering that perpetuates suffering, or is it going to be suffering that completes suffering? Now, how do you complete suffering? Well, it's kind of like a samurai. You can cut yourself across the belly, and if you leave it and address it and take care of it, every time you put your attention on the wound and take care of it, you will move towards being healed. But if you pick at it and fool with it, you'll keep it there. And it's like that with so much of our past, to the extent we keep it there, like Ron with his mother, and it's no forgiveness. You don't complete the suffering around it. You maintain it. And it just keeps on going on and keeps on going on, and we got no freedom from it. Maybe for years, our whole life, to the extent we're not willing to get off it with Each other. And that's why there's so much power. I found if I make a pledge with someone and I'm never going to make you wrong and they make that pledge with me, I could give you evidence, lots of evidence for the miracles that that created that point of view with each other. That way of being just absolute miracles. We could create out of it tangible, real, physical stuff. I think I got off your question. No, no, no, no.

No. I mean, I'm even sitting there thinking about even. The notion of miracles. A lot of people think of them as they just happen versus you create.

Them. No, here's a miracle. Joe Polish not making his ex girlfriend wrong. As opposed to having to have a reason why we disconnected. And there's usually a reason that leaves me either wrong or her them wrong. Why we just completed it. Do we need to throw in a psychological dimension of one or the other of us being screwed up? Do we really? I don't think so. I don't think it's necessary, required. In fact, I think it disempowers us. But if I can suffer with the separation when I feel it, experience it, not run from it, then each time I can, the wound heals a bit more. My first divorce, I suffered immensely. Three years I wasn't myself. I wobbled all the time in life. Anything would set me off. Until finally I reached a point where I said, you know what if I tell the truth about it? I caused this. I caused this. I wasn't loving. I was instead judgmental. And you ask what can you do about the loving dimension? I think it's get rid of the stuff that keeps you from loving. I don't think it's anything I need to do. I think it's what I can stop doing. Where the real power.

Is. I remember once in a 12.

Step.

Group, there was a conversation with a guy about. He didn't even use the term God. Although that's what some people's interpretation of it was. It was about a higher power, about a four force, about a.

Connection.

Sure. And said that it's like the sun. It's always.

There.

Right. But the clouds addiction clouds it. But it's there. It's not that it goes away or that you have to find it. It's there. It's just the things that we. So what? I. I got reminded of it when you just said that. Because it's just all of the things that are in the way of.

It. Yeah. It's just love's always there. Yeah. Can I get myself out of the way so far it's been kind of difficult for me. But then I have more and more moments in which I do get out of the way. And I'm elevated by those personally. And I know people around me are elevated by them also, because any elevation in my capacity to love has to spill over on them and impact their lives. And so we all have lives that are richer and more exciting and enlivening. And you travel with people a lot who make your life about that. Every step we've talked about to make their life about, we're just making it consciously available in the book to everybody rather than accidentally or a product of a good upbringing or lucky upbringing. We're saying, okay, maybe you can get your hands on this here to a greater extent than you ever imagined. And maybe we're all puppets and don't know it, but I'm a little reassured if I got my hands on it a bit more than just saying, oh, well, I'm a puppet. I'll just go with the flow. So my question for you, Ron, is, did this come naturally to you because you're a giver? What? You're an acceptance? Did what come natural so I don't have to be nice anymore? So what? So the desire to make a difference, the desire to help, the desire to encourage, is that just Ron Zella from the very beginning? No. So what happened? What made you more like you today? When I was dying of cancer the first time, I couldn't get free of certain mental parasites, we'll say, ways of looking at things, couldn't get free of that. And I said, perhaps I need like Buckminster Fuller to contribute. And I said, well, how can I do that? Well, okay, good, I can lead communication work because I've known that I did that in the past, so I'll lead communication courses. So I called up Janendra Jain, a friend of mine, and asked him if I could lead. And Julie hall happened to be a leader too. And he said, yeah, we'll train you to do that. Now. It was ridiculous because I was trained at the highest levels of landmark. No, you have to be retrained. So I got trained and I started leading communication courses. Instantly, my life shifted for the better. When I started contributing others, intending to contribute to others, instantly, my life shifted for the better on all different fronts. I got out of a trailer, I was living for over a year. I got into a house, my wife started succeeding at taekwondo. I got jobs, I got a career. I started working as a consultant. I became a world class consultant, actually. I Just finished a gig here not too long ago with Mountain America, where I trained dollar Chief executive and CEO. I think it started before that, though. When you started working for Landmark and for Warner. For us, I'm talking about. Yeah, yeah, but then I stopped. Yeah, but I mean, you stopped. Yeah. And then this work came out of.

That. But initially that would seem to me that, you know, you were a high.

School. It's hard to. Yeah, it's hard to say, but that's. To me. I'm talking about the latest. When the shift occurred. Latest chapter. You're right. I had been working with a company called Landmark, which was about contribution, making a difference. And we could say it really started there. Yeah, yeah. But even as a high school principal, you were serving. I was a.

Prick. Oh, were.

You? As a high school principal? They better look out. I trained also in martial arts, and I had to handle myself with a couple students. So I was tough love, high school principal, you know, I ran a school that was an experimental school, and I did it as best I could, and it was known around the world. And then one day, the teachers had a strike, and the first kids got very agitated and upset, and they came in and they were all, you know, let's tear this place apart. Were you there? Yeah. You want to say anything about what that looked like from your point of.

View? No, I think your point of view is good.

Enough. All right. The kids came in, they started tearing everything apart. Substitute teacher. I had five substitute teachers for a whole high school. And the substitute teacher took his keys and he threw them at me. He said, up yours, man. And he ran and he jumped and he jumped over the fence. So now I had four people left to support me with these kids who come in throwing bricks, rocks through windows, doing all this stuff. And I had just done this training, and I said, totally out of character. Hey, a riot. Far out. Let's have a riot. Let's have the best damn riot anybody's ever had. So let's get food in here, let's get a band in here. Let's really riot. And I started running around throwing eggs at kids and stuff. The kid said, what's happening? The kid said, the principal's freaking out. He said, what? You're freaking out? You're supposed to be stopping riots, not having riots. I out rioted them. I got so upset and so off the wall that they settled down, tried to get me in my office, tried to get me to calm down, and I discovered. And then I beat with them and just listened to them. We had one of the best days of high school principal I ever had. Didn't start out that way, but it ended up being one of the best days. And I kind of got clear. We don't know shit about how it's going to go really, or what's possible. That's an interesting.

Story. Well, I wanted to do this. So you got the book Aging or ageless. And there are many books in the world. There are millions of books.

Darrell. So many books. One of the things that kept me from writing the book is what difference will one more book.

Make? I hear you. I hear you. You know, being in the business that I'm in, I read a lot of books. I get sent more books. I've met some incredible individuals. I've gone through a lot of powerful author.

Talk. Author talk? Yeah. Excuse me, trainings. You are a guy who is committed to transformation and keep training yourself. Not at ordinary training, which most people might be satisfied with because it produced a bit of a change. No, you are one mother, one mf for transformation. I mean, really, you are one stand for transformation. That's why when we first met each other, I just knew we were kindred spirits. Just truly kindred spirits. Didn't have to say anything. We're just up to the same.

Thing.

Yeah.

Yeah. And so what I know is that anyone listening to this, if they pick up your book, they could sit it on a shelf, they could casually read it, they could kind of go through it, or they can use it as a seed in the launching pad for transformation. So I'd like to ask you, how does someone take your work here, this body of work, this book, and not just is this another book. I mean, how can they use it as a guide? Utilize it. Not use it, but utilize it and.

Transform. It's called paying your dues.

Joe. Okay.

Go. You have to actually apply the book to get the value of the book. Now, we boiled it down to seven simple steps. So you first of all have to choose, what value am I going to create out of this? Now, if you don't create any value, there's no sense you reading it. Well, I'm going to read this book with the intention that. Or I'm choosing to read this book to get this result. I'm choosing this. Then next, okay, where am I not completing life in this area? And you start to do the work, and that's laid out in the book how to do that. So you could follow it like a handbook. And rather than try to figure this all out in advance, you could just do it. And then next I'm going to spend time in the space of nothing, like Ron talks about and Joe talks about all the time. Like in, I assert, you were pursuing in all the byways and highways you tried, many of which were destructive and non productive. You were pursuing space, you were pursuing the void. Am I right or.

Wrong? You were absolutely.

Right. Yeah. And I think most people are up to that. And the more we support each other and collaborate in that, in our own individual ways or collective ways, just the more awesome power we can draw on. And then a person will look and see. Okay, good. I can see I'm ready for a new life. What's that going to actually look like? Want them to be more generous. What would that look like? Well, you know, it includes this element of forgiveness. Back to completion. You were going to be more generous around Richard's charities and you were. And it opened up a whole new world for you. Really that's not even fair. Worlds of worlds. It opened up for you. So all of these are really natural. And the question might be, how do you get people to do them? I hope that the design will support them of everything tying together. I hope that that design will assist them in actually being in action. And if they get out of action, getting back to action again. And I found the best way is support groups. I haven't found anything better. So the best thing anybody could do is get in the 25k group. The Conversation is so palatable, so alive there, so natural, flowing, that being there and being around people who are there and being with you, they're going to get this work. My body of work they will get. Because it's holographic. It all fits together. That'd be the answer I come up.

With. No, thank you. I appreciate that. How do you experience fear right now and what do you do with it? Because I know a lot of people that are listening to this feel imprisoned by it and you have a message and you have led so many people not only to face it, play with it, eliminate it. I mean, lots of ways to look at fear. And it could be one of the greatest assets on how you work through it or work with it or embrace it, or it could be the thing that defines your life and prevents you from ever even creating the.

Possibilities. That's right. Fear can be a stop. It's a huge stop. Huge stop for a lot of us, most of us. I was almost too afraid to jump out of an airplane. Silly example. I hesitate to go back to it, but it's relatively recent. In my life. And I had a little fear, but there was more fear in my doing it than there was in anticipating it. When I couldn't breathe, I had fear. And when I couldn't breathe for seven minutes, I had seven minutes fear of dying. Deep fear. But you know what, Joe? On the other side of it, I had more courage and strength getting through it. Not by even any conscious design of mine to get through it. I know people say, do the thing you fear. You tried that, and I've tried that. And like public speaking, Joe, I couldn't lead two people in silent prayer. When I was high school principal, I'd spend for a Rotary Club talk a week to get ready, trying to memorize it, to get it right for fear of what I would look like to other people. And you know what, Joe? I worked, as you heard, at Landmark, being trained elite courses. And I first started with two people. Could I lead the two people? Okay, I got the two people. Okay, can I get the four people? Okay, I got the four people. And as I did this and worked over a period of, let's say, 10 years, Joe, I got to a point where the fear had disappeared. So now I can talk to aboriginals, I can talk to heads of countries. And like you having done what you've done, not be intimidated by it, be enlivened and enriched by it. One of the highest moments of my life was a big long conversation with an aboriginal chief. He showed me a security system, a funnel spider above his doorway, which will drop in on you if you're not aware of it and bite you and kill you. That's a pretty good security system. And in the mailbox, a poisonous lizard that if you put your hands in unawarely, will not have you be around bothering him anymore. And, you know, having people tell you this in depth shit, I know you in your interviews get it and you maybe can't even publish some of it, but telling you some of this stuff, it like, opens up our oneness with each other, our humanity. And that's the rich domain of life, which I'm. I say will handle love, but it's the rich domain of life. I've made my life about the 99% of us. That's the same. And most people make their life about the 99% of their life that's about them. But I've made it about what's the same about us all. And from there I went to get my much of my lead from the Yogis because they got a very powerful tradition, the Indian tradition. And I find that model very fascinating. I love it. I went over and studied it in India and led Indian groups, and I just love that.

Model. You know, it takes me back to everything that you just said. Now, what Mary Louise was saying when we earlier here in the room, when she was here, was about doing the work, having the practice. You know, there's so many cliches, like, you know, life is not a dress rehearsal and there's. I remember someone talking about 12 step groups saying, you know, it's not an attendance program. You know, if you want to get something out of 12 steps, you actually have to do the steps. You just don't go to.

Meetings.

Right. You know, because everyone that will complain about, oh, meetings don't.

Work. Well, how many have you been to.

Lately?

Yeah.

Yeah. And while you've gone, have you done any of the work? So I think reading your book without adopting the practice is going to just be reading the.

Book.

Yeah. If people want transformation, they do the work. There are many forms of work and advice and do this and do that that are vying for everyone's attention and making the choice. This is your life. This is what I'm going to do with it. My hope is that this conversation and listening to you people will hear it, and it will be a springboard. It will be a catalyst. It will literally take them because they can go wherever they want to go with it. Of course they have that.

Choice. Or.

Nowhere.

Exactly. Which in life is what we mostly.

Do.

Yes. And I'm hoping by having laid it out the way I laid it out and bringing my past experience of transformation to it, that I can kind of throw into the stew, that they will have more empowerment available to them to live a transformed life if that's what they're up to, and bring forth awesome possibilities in their life if that's what they're up to. And if they're not, God bless them, whatever they're up to is fine. There's nothing to be fixed. They're fine. They're perfect. We're all.

Perfect. If someone doesn't feel perfect, how do they get to that.

Place? Okay, let's talk about. Because that's personal for you. You've had your head full of a lot of shit in life that you've tried to get rid of. And I'm not saying this. I'm only saying it because you've said it. Yes. I was listening to one of your last recordings and my head has been full of a lot of shit. And I've been trying to get Rid of. And in tm, I found release from that. I think that's great. I think that's really.

Incredible. And the more I do it, the more it seems to just get.

Better. Unfortunately, there's not too many things out there like that. And there's some people got an automatic turn off about meditation. Just the word itself, they can't get past. I'm open to stories has a universal enough message through the message of the myth through myth. That's how this is unique. That if they can get and are willing to sink into the myth and actually imagine, hey, maybe, you know, what would it be like if I was a phoenix, if I had a unique song to sing that I haven't sung to the world? Well, what would it be? What would that be like? And the question into that, Joe, I'm of the opinion that this will give more people more openings than most ordinary books would and most ordinary approaches.

Would. And I think coupled with this and hearing your story and, you know, not only the situation of. Of where we're at and when we're doing this in your life, but also just the reinforcement of your voice because, you know, hearing the real person, I think really helps deepen the message. That's why I think, you know, just hearing this conversation and I couldn't.

Talk for the last five.

Minutes.

Yeah. I mean, we even had this scheduled interview with you two and a half weeks ago and couldn't do it because you didn't have a.

Voice.

Right. Yeah. So it's pretty awesome. So let me, as we wrap.

Up, what do you.

Consider. What are you most proud of in your life? What has been what you consider your greatest achievement, contribution in your life that you're most proud.

Of? I would say the relationships I have, the extraordinary people I've known had an opportunity to have a relationship with, like, the head of the Buddhist lineage and like Swami Muktananda. And just the incredible opportunities I've had. Joe Polish. The people in my life, Neil Moore, all the forum leaders who are, each and every one of them, a whole world in themselves, of stand for humanity. My extraordinary wife. You know, I don't say this lightly, but I said it in front of her, and she said in front of me. I took on. You asked me why these courses? I took on these courses to train my wife. I figured I could sneak in what she needed to know through these courses. So I first took it on. And. And I've announced this publicly. I think from the first course, this has been my opportunity to train my wife. And every Time she reads this book, or anytime we do something like a course like this, or anytime I do any consulting and she's involved, she'll have her own life reinforced. And I'm really proud of how she's taken that and, and used it. So I'm proud of the relationships I have in life. And I bet my ass is the same thing for.

You. Absolutely. I mean, you know, at the end of my life, I mean, the things that are going to matter. I remember going to a guy's funeral named Ralph Bloss. He was in the cleaning industry, which is where I kind of started my marketing career. And I remember going to his funeral. And I've not been to a tremendous amount of funerals. And I just remember the one thing I took away was how many people there said he just encouraged so many others. And, you know, in the context of it being there, that just really struck me because, you know, there's a lot of people that have been very financially successful that aren't very encouraging and are very inspiring. There's other people that are.

Mothers. And I wouldn't call that success. You asked me what success? I wouldn't call that.

Success. Yeah, absolutely. I wouldn't call that success either. And just the ability to encourage. And that's where you get relationships. I mean, real true relationships are not, you know, somebody. I mean, they're not acquaintances and they're not hanger ons. They're not yes people because you paid them. I mean, they're really people that, you know, they love you, they care about you, and you made a difference in their life. And you fortunately have lived that life, you've encouraged hundreds of thousands, and you wouldn't write a book about it if you didn't want to continue to do that and you didn't want to help others. And so the one commonality here is. Yeah, I mean, because who does.

Right? It's hard work. I'm not one of those people. I sat down and just flowed through me. I'm not one of those.

People. No, it's. And so the last thing I want to ask you about is courage. Having courage in the face of death and having the courage to be ageless versus aging. You've talked about going back and forth in those places and you really talk about it in the book. So for everyone listening, the courage to live their life for them, the courage to be generous, the courage to love, the courage to not give up on things that would be crazy to not give up on, and the courage to give up on things that Just aren't working anymore that just make no.

Sense or never worked at all. I'd like to give them a distinction. And the distinction is that courage is ordinary people doing what they ordinarily wouldn't do in the service of life. So I say courage is invented saying, like we might say that person had courage, but that person just did what they did. They jumped on the hand grenade. It was just there for them to do because they loved the people they were with. And I don't think it's an element that's something other than used to describe after the fact some person's way of being. I can find moments in my life of great courage for me that be nothing for others. I think everybody can. You know, I went climbing up on Mount this mountain behind us. What is a timp. Yeah. And I had never gone ice climbing before and mine was more stupidity than courage. But I did it and I went out, I rented an ice axe, I slipped and I fell and I came within like 20ft of going off the edge of a 500 foot cliff. Now I can't find any courage in that. It was just a dumb accident, but I did survive it. I did keep swinging that ice axe to the end, never having used one before until I got a bite. So it's kind of like keeping going in the face of just examples from my own life. Doctors saying, you'll be dead lights out any minute. It took courage to walk away from that meeting for me and say, well, I don't know about that. So far those predictions haven't come true. So I'm going to live my life less fearful. In fact, not fearful. I'm just going to include it in my life. That that's something somebody said. But I find courage. And like my wife Mary Louise, she goes out to fight against the champion, the Olympic champion of Mexico. She gets her head beaten in and then she comes back after being treated for concussions and stuff for six months and she competes again. For me, that's courage to keep going in the face of it, to just keep going. So if anybody's listening and they're going, they're moving, their courage comes from just keep going. That'll be courage in action. You'll find it in action by just keeping going. And I've gotten empowered out of this interview today. I'm going to keep going with a stand for, well being in the face of the aggression agreement of none available. And I'm going to have each day, no matter how long I live, be a day of living with Passion and aliveness and celebration and enthusiasm as much as I can. And when I forget, I'll read that book I got around here someplace called, you know, rise like the Phoenix and Be Ageless. And I'm going to remind myself, ron, is this an ageless death you're heading towards or an aging death? Very predictable, normal American aging death. And I'm going to say, no, I'm choosing an ageless death. Well, what can I do today or tomorrow that will embody that? That may take courage to do and probably take some courage to do, or it would be in the box rather than out of the box. Does that answer.

That? That answers.

That. Does it nail it? That's what I want to.

Know. And I came here not only to see you, of course. That was the primary reason and the reason I wanted to do an interview, because I just think it would be crazy to not capture your story, to not capture your wisdom, to not give. Create something that would guide people. So I came here as a student just as much as a person who was going to ask you some questions and do an interview, because I genuinely want to continue to learn and to grow and to better myself. And anyone listening to this in their own way, it's about bettering themselves, and it's about creating a better life. And. And so anything that you had not said or wanted to state or any famous last words that you'd like to share before we wrap this up and let people go about living, hopefully, an extraordinary life, I got a.

Few. One is, I just really acknowledge the courage of my family, each and every one of them, because I'm not dying, they're dying. We go through something like this together. You can't avoid it. We're connected. And so each in our own way. So my wife has had to deal with her pain and suffering over this and her fear and all the things that you've asked me. How do I deal with? Yeah, okay, good. You could ask her, because she's had to deal with that, too. So I acknowledge each and every member of my family and from the grandkids up that call me to say, grandpa, I love you, and inspire me. So there's that. Then along the way, I've been kept alive. And one of the things that's kept me alive is I've chosen to do some things that have made a difference, keep me alive. So last time was when the doctor said I couldn't talk, so I couldn't even argue about it because I'd just lost my voice, my arm was swollen Three times the normal size. And he said, I tell you, this light's out any minute, okay? I found I was going down to Mexico to die at a health clinic. And I figured that they're kind of like health clinics. They got doctors there and stuff if you need support. So I'll die in Mexico, a rather comfortable death. And then a friend, Bernie Dorman, said, have you heard of the Delta Clinic? They're located seven miles from your house. No. And I found there's this whole clinic where they're doing research in the face of cancers and Lyme's disease, how to use homeopathics in new ways. Kind of like you discovered new ways about relating to your, you know, pains in your shoulders and your legs. Well, they got. So I went down there for at least three months, shocked myself every day. Got radiotherapies, got hydrogen, oxygen therapies, not hydrogen. They kill you quick. I've got the various modalities of radio waves of stuff, especially homeopathics that experiment with me. I'm like a guinea pig. This is like a research center. There's 10 of us at any time across the hall are two people in a room across the hall right here. And they were living normal lives in Dubai five weeks ago. He has a financial analyst and her is a high priced consultant in Dubai, in fast moving circles of finance. And then they told him when he went to see the doctor, you got a brain tumor. And that was five weeks ago. And now he's across the hall, he can hardly remember his name. He can't talk, he can't speak, he can't walk. And she's with him with this incredible compassion and love. God knows how long they got. A day, a week, right here across the hall. Life can reach out and touch either one of us on the shoulder at any time. And I want to leave people with my intention. And he read my book. And I want to leave people with the intention that each and every one of us has a power. And even if it's dying, this incredibly noble, no, ageless life, death, we got that power. And those two are doing it. Their whole family gathered in from Brazil and all over the world. They're right here now dealing with this stuff that we've been talking about all day with courage, facing fears, going through it. And I'm including them in this interview because this can rub off on anybody who thinks it's hard work in life to take on your life. Yeah, it's hard work not to take it on. It's even harder work not to take it on with what you got. And I'm praying that my book. I'm using praying loosely because I'm not a very religious guy. And I do pray from time to time that this book will open up possibilities for people, whether life's going great and wonderful, where they can contribute beyond the predictable, or when life taps you on the shoulder. And still being ageless in the.

Face of it all, aging or ageless, rise like a phoenix from the myth of aging. Ron Zeller. Ron, spent a lot of time talking.

Today. We did.

Yeah. I really appreciate it. You're an incredible man. You just. You've had such an impact. I wanted to do a little piece that I could to capture your wisdom and use.

This. Appreciate.

That. I love you. I love what you have done, all the effort and work. You're a massive encouragement to me and to so many people. And I just want to say thank.

You. Means a lot to me, Joe. Means a lot to me, being with you. The opportunity to get a little message out in the world, a humble message, that we got more power than we realize, although others have said that, too. But I hope that I get it out in some unique way that touches some people that others haven't been able to touch yet and gives them the courage and the fearlessness and leaves them with the stand to keep going in the face of anything and to realize, like a phoenix, they can rise again and have a whole newer level of life than ever.

Anticipated. Yeah. And I think where the listeners can take this, if there's anyone that you know in your life that would be well served to hear this, share this message. This is one. This is one of those interviews that I would love to just see it passed around and shared and talked about and to go deep with, because that's how we take this message and turn it into a really big message.

And have a big.

Impact. And so thank you, my.

Friend. Love you.

Joe. Love you.

Too. And, oh, by the way, if you're a listener, I love you.

Too.

Awesome. Thank.