Marketing That Gets You Customers: The I Love Marketing Live Virtual Q&A Featuring Joe Polish and Dean Jackson - I Love Marketing Episode #387

It kind of goes back to this thing that Gary Halbert, I first heard him say, there's three things you need in order to sell something. You need a product or service, which we all have. You need a sales pitch or a marketing message, and then you need a delivery system. And I heard that before the Internet even existed. And back in the day I think of, okay, what do we sell and how do we tell people about it? And so I think of websites, social media, anything electronically, even VR, even a lot of future technologies is just a way to deliver stuff, be it done through algorithms that tag you or, you know, pixels that follow you around or just running, you know, offline advertising, you know, anything that's going to reach, you know, the message to market match. Are you fishing in the right pond? Listen in as Dean Jackson and Joe Polish answer audience questions about increasing your prospects and conversion rates with wildly effective marketing techniques. In this episode, Joe and Dean discuss how to incorporate humor into into your messaging in a way that aligns with your message and never falls flat. They share the difference between visible and invisible prospects, the principles of successful joint ventures, and how to leverage social media platforms. And they reveal how to find money that's hidden deep inside your business. If you'd like to join world renowned entrepreneurs at the next Genius Network annual event, then apply today for your invitation to attend. If you'd like to learn more about the Genius Network and the event or to apply, go to genusnetwork.com all right, so, well, let's kind of get rolling here. We've got a few questions. The goal, of course, for today is to just do Q and A and be as helpful as we can answering questions. So there'll be a few here. So. All right, let's start with Dave Stratton, who basically, you know, this is kind of give him credit because he's doing the auto marketing meetup groups and this is morphed into the Zoom meetings we've been doing here. So let me read your question. So he's here in Arizona. Where you at right now, Dave? I'm down in Chandler. Yep. All right, so let's see. Hail damage, Hail damage, coaching and marketing. Yeah, yeah. So your question is. I've been a huge believer in educational marketing since Joe and Dean first introduced the concept to me. My question is in regards to entertainment marketing. I try to be funny and entertaining with my marketing, but feel there must be a way to do both. Educate while entertaining, but I'm still one or the other. Any advice of tying the two concepts together? That's an interesting one because there's so many schools of thought. If someone's genuinely funny and entertaining, the whole infotainment thing and that sort of world that's been talked about for a couple of decades now, with social media and video editing and VR and all the different ways, I think you can tie in a lot of entertainment into it. But there's also schools of thought where, you know, when you're wanting to get people to give you money that, you know, is it really a funny sort of thing? And you can have hysterically crazy, you know, videos, and they get millions of views and that doesn't necessarily mean anyone's buying anything. So, Dean, how would you respond to that?

Well, you know, it all falls into profit. Activator 3 is about educate and motivate. And you can educate with humor, you can motivate with humor, you can do fun things. But the humor has to. It can't be just for the sake of being funny. It can't be just for the sake of entertaining and then having this funny thing and then at the end having your Chiclets or your logo or whatever the product you're selling come up, just totally unrelated. Good example. One of the things we've used humor in postcards and ads with the. With the Mosquito Authority, that has been very successful. So I'll show you a couple of examples of how we've done it. Oh, shoot. Here's one. I'll tell you what the words say, but let me get my. So here's an example. One of the things you have to think contextually about, what is the outcome that you want? What's the situation that's going on here? And how can we use humor to motivate that action? Okay. To draw attention to it. So this is a example of that. Now this. I'll tell you what the actual words say here, because we use digital variables. But one of the things, the job of work, that's where you really have to begin, is think about what is the job of work that you're hiring. Whatever this ad or postcard or letter or email or mailpiece, whatever it is you're doing, where you're going to use humor, what's the job that you're hiring the humor to do. And so in a situation like this, one of the things that is a big plus is getting people who were recurring clients last year to come back this year and have us keep all the mosquitoes out of their yard again. So they've got a really great onboarding process for the beginning of the season. And. But there's 20% of the 80% of people come back. There's 20% that for whatever reason, either move or decide not to come back. And we needed an intervention to go in after they've already done the protocol that gets them the 80% renewal. So we send this postcard and the humor part of it, the element is going into the season. Here we. Right at the beginning of the season, where do mosquitoes go over the winter? What happens to them? Well, we imagining that they go south for the winter and then they're resting and relaxing over the winter and they're at the tiki bar. And one mosquito says to the other. The other mosquito, he says, so where should we stay when we get back to. When we get back to Utah this year? And the other mosquito says, well, I hear the Paulson yard is available again. Now, the humor in that is that it implies that they couldn't go there last year because Tim Paulson had coverage with the mosquito authority. So that was off limits, but he hasn't renewed yet. So that word's gotten out that the mosquitoes have the green light. I hear the Paulson yard is available again. So we sent that postcard to everybody with the digital variable of their name in it. And it was a big, big hit because everybody. You get punched in the face with your. You're the punchline of the joke. And you realize in that moment, oh, yeah, we did have. We were. We didn't have any mosquitoes last summer. We better sign back up. And that's exactly what would happen. So in a situation like that, humor is a good thing. We've used it. I'll share another one of those. This was a golden ticket that we use for the mosquitoes. Again. Let me share this one with you to accept. Safe to downloads. Now this one. Okay, I gotta stop sharing that one. And now start sharing this one. Okay, start screen this one. So we use this as a. The back side of a. What we call a golden ticket, which is a gift card for people to give. So we see the mosquitoes, the guys reading the newspaper. There's an ad for the mosquito authority on the back. Absolutely, positively no mosquitoes in your yard. Guaranteed. Period. Guaranteed. That can't be good. And you're hoping that this guy's not going to see that ad right now. Right now they're clear. But let's hope he doesn't find out about that. But that's the thing where you're using humor to convey a message that is furthering your cause. So it's completely related to it. Not instead of your message or not as an alternate to your message. The message is there. That's the whole thing. You're kind of illuminating a situation with humor, but then you're doing it in a way that motivates them to take action. That's what we're looking for.

Yeah. Hey, Dean. So Raymond wrote, how is that package that makes them understand the full story, as most of us are neuranderthals. Unless you're really into Gary Larson's far side.

Right, exactly. And I think you've gotta give like, I think there's some element of that.

That.

You know, we seem to. And again, it's about the response that we get, you know, is that I think the messaging of, especially when it's your name, where you're the butt of the joke, you're the punchline, where, you know, that you had the mosquito authority coverage last. And again, on the backside of that postcard that we sent, we say it straight out where, you know, we basically send a nine word postcard to them saying, you know, hey Joe, we haven't, we're starting the mosquito treatments again this month. Would you like us to come keep the mosquitoes out of your yard again this year? So we're, we're very clear on the, on the purpose of it, you know, and I think it's just smart enough that people get that. I think, you know.

Yeah, you know that. What was that? I'm trying to think who originally said it. It's a simple line, but it's direct marketing. Doesn't need to make sense. It just needs to make money.

Right.

You know, I remember I was in a shopping mall with Gary Halbert, oh God, probably 20 years ago, and we're just going to a mall. And he's, you know, he said to me, he goes, you know, I've, I've started to even look at image ads and some of these big brand promotions because I've always hated him. He goes, always thought that everything, you know, needed to be some direct response copy and stuff. And which of course he, you know, till the day he died, he still believed that to be primarily the case. But he said, you know, there's so many. He goes, every once in a while someone will just create an advertisement that just hits and it doesn't make any sense. It just does. So you can't, you know, the rule is there are no rules. You know, there are certain fundamentals that just work and have a better chance, but there's other things that you just don't know. So that's again the. I often think it's a really good default. You know, when someone asks something, the real answer is, it depends is most of the time the correct answer. And secondly, there's, there's little nuances to what people respond to. And the more that supply and demand is on your side, the less of a clever, creative, humorous, education based, proof based marketer you have to be. I mean, similar to earlier in the year when there was a toilet paper shortage, you know, you didn't need any good marketing in order to sell toilet paper when more people want it than it's available.

So horse for sale.

Yeah, exactly. Horse for sale. So Dave, what are you hearing out of all this? What makes sense, what doesn't? Oh, totally pulled it together for me. My favorite thing that he said probably got missed by a lot of people, so I'm going to repeat it. But he started saying what's the job of the postcard? What's the job of the humor? And so many times I catch myself doing marketing for marketing sake. Facebook posts and stuff like that where just asking that quick question, what's the job? Where do.

What's the call to action?

What do I want to accomplish with this versus putting content out there? Brilliant.

Yeah, that's great. What's that?

Interesting.

Talking about going to the mall with Gary and you know, I find myself now, I'm a big, I'm an observer.

David's holding up, by the way. Hold on. So that's literally. That is my favorite marketing book of all time.

I wanted to.

Tell me about it. Yep. Joe.

Well, you know, do you remember, do you remember, Joe, the Success magazine ad that Gary would run to promote that book? Because it was so he had that he would offer a free book in Success magazine and half page ad, you know, vertical. And it was all just, you know, how to make maximum money minimum times. And that was all bullets. Right. It's how to get the name, address and telephone number of every person who's likely to be your customer. And yeah, all, all that, that stuff was, was amazing. And they would send you a dollar bill letter where you could get the free book when you subscribe to his newsletter.

Yeah. By the way, David asked what, what is the book called? It's called how to make Maximum Money in Minimum Time. Gina on my team just posted a link to it. You can read all of his newsletters@thegaryhalbertletter.com they're all free. And yeah, I mean I, there's so Much good stuff.

That's a great thing to do. Pick one and read one every night before you go to bed or something as a nice routine. It's a great. Those letters are great. I've got a printed stack, a copy. I got that from you. You're the one that printed them all up, didn't you?

Yeah, yeah. I mean, before Gary died, he actually gave me rights to reproduce all this stuff, which I never did. I actually used to own the name garyhauber.com and when he passed away, I gave it to Sons. And. Yeah, I mean, if people want to know the fundamentals of Gary Halbert, if you go to ilove marketing.com and type in Gary Halbert. We've done, you know, quite a few episodes where we talk about it, but I did a Talk back in 2011 at one of Dan Kennedy's events, and I went over all of the main things I learned from Gary Halbert. And that was at the time that was the highest close. And, you know, back then it was Glazer Kennedy back. You know, I actually did a pitch at the end of the presentation. And that presentation has taught so many people how to sell from stage. And I used a video sales letter to sell a program. Yeah. I mean, so we had like 1200 people there, and 500 people plus got in line to buy. I mean, more than half the audience was trying to buy the stuff and they could not keep up with all the people in line. And I had a countdown timer of when the offer would end. And they actually thought once the time was done that they lost out. And so half of these people never bought the thing because there was not enough people to take all the orders. It was pretty funny. It's like simultaneously exciting and depressing at the same time because you see thousands of dollars walk out the door, but also knowing that a ton was made. And I actually gave most of that money to. I think it was the Make a Wish Foundation. Yeah. So. Oh, and Gina posted. Yeah. If you want to watch that presentation, literally, if I charged people 10 grand just to watch that presentation, which we just put it out for free, it would actually be worth it. One of the problems with that presentation is because we give it away for free, people don't realize that it is a freaking study on how to sell from stage because I don't do that much selling from stage. That's why I have $25,000 groups, is I just prefer, you know, really successful members and I don't have to pitch them in order to make money. We Just start with a really high fee and then we just teach them really great stuff without aggressive promotion. So let's, let's ask a couple of other questions here. Renee Nelson, how about you?

Yeah.

So your question is? Well, I think it's. So your biggest challenge is creating valuable content to send to warm leads after they respond to the initial postcard. Okay, so that's, there's probably a question in there. And then your question is, are Facebook custom audiences worth the effort trying to implement? And Dean, you're more qualified to answer that one than me because you do a lot of it.

I do a lot of it. A lot of both postcards and follow up and Facebook. You're absolutely right. Hello, Renee.

Hi, Dean.

So these are your postcards to investors.

Yes.

Offer the multi families.

Yes.

Okay. And yeah, so part of the thing, once you get that list, the most valuable thing that you can continue to send them is your insights and updates on what's happening in that marketplace. Right. Market data. For everybody listening, if you've got an opportunity to package under your umbrella market data with your insights and with a carrying along with it your super signature, your cookies, your items that somebody is going to take advantage of. So that's why we always use the words, you know, whenever you're ready. Here are three ways we can help you. And so for you with the owners of the multi family things, it would be get a free pinpoint price analysis. We show you exactly what their, what your multifamily would sell for in today's market, what other things would be, you know, unique to the, to the multifamily market. I was thinking about, you know, in residential we do the room by room review, but I don't know whether that is something most of the ones are basically sold as is. Right. So, you know, they're not like dolling them up to put them on the market. It's all the it is what it is kind of thing. But your silent market would certainly be a part of that, I think. Right. We say sell your, sell your multifamily, you know, when it's little as 24 hours without even putting it on the market through our silent market. That would be a good offer because you're, you want to be in the position of being a market maker on that, where you've got the ability, you know, through your Facebook ads, finding, you know, investors who are looking for new investors who are looking for multifamily because those are invisible prospects. But the people that own all the multifamily are visible prospects. Who might also be looking to add to their portfolio. They may be looking to expand or bring on new properties. And so when you look at now on the buyer side, same thing we're looking for, what are the. How are people going to take action as a result of whatever it is that you're sending to follow up with? You know, so that could be, you know, I don't know what would be the equivalent for you on the buyer side. You know, you would on residential, we'll do daily tour of homes or. But what would be, what are you using now to connect with the buyers? Have you thought that through?

Yeah, I created an insider buyer guide to help buyers understand the price point in the market.

Yes.

And that's been helpful. That's been a good lead generator so far. And I was debating about offering that through Facebook custom audiences. Offering that to try to entice more people.

The thing about the custom audiences right now is that Facebook is actually doing a pretty good job of finding the right people with a broad match. I mean they're really pretty. They've got all of the data to see who's interacting with this, who's appealing, who this is going for. So I'll often start out with just the geographic match of where the. This is, the, this is the area where we want and I'll put the age in there if anything. But in real estate we're almost like we're not allowed to do any of the fine tuning of the audience stuff anyway because it's all fair housing and you've got to. You can only show ads in a 15 mile minimum radius anyway. So it's almost, it's a good question that I don't know whether they do the matching for real estate ads. Whether you can build an audience like that. That's a good question actually. Maybe somebody on the call might know, but I don't.

Yes, yes, we do have someone on the call. That would be the lovely Tarna on my team stuff pretty well. So Tarna.

Hey guys. So random. So I work with Joe in marketing, but randomly before that I would help developers with multifamily. You absolutely can target that insider's buyer guide that you have is a magical thought. Even if you don't plan on using your custom audience, get your pixel on your website. So it's at least learning and going through that phase. But the idea of the custom audience isn't to stop there. It's to do the lookalike audience that Dean was talking about where the algorithm picks up the data. Who's interacted with you. So if you have a long term customer list or an email list, load that in. Infuse Facebook with the data. Depending on the size of that, you might be able to create a lookalike audience right away. But then when you couple that with the strategy that Dean was telling you, so you have your custom audience and then in addition to that, you're telling the system to go find you more of them. And then if there's a property in a certain area you want to hyper focus on, you couple that strategy of the geofencing in that area, telling Facebook, here's the demographics of the people who have loved me before, go find me more of them in this area. So even if you don't use it right away because it takes, it takes a little bit to coordinate and implement all of that, at least get that pixel installed on your website so it's working for you in the meantime. Okay. And just curious, how long does it take the algorithm to kind of figure like 6 weeks? All based on volume.

Volume.

All based on volume. So if you're infusing it with a good amount of data or money. So Facebook's a bidding platform, so if you're infusing it with $300 a day, you're going to get to 10 days or in 10 days of data fast. Or at 10 days, you're going to be at 30 days of data if you only did $100 a day.

Got it.

So that's one of the hard parts for people typically with Facebook. I call it my donation phase. You just duck and cover, put the money in it, get the system to tell you if you're on the right path or not. But a lot of people will just go real reserved and say, well, $20 a day or $50 a day. Well, if you're gonna spend 3,000, you want to wait for the data or you want it now? Is the thought. Okay, great. Thank you.

And by the way, Tarnas. So look, I got another question with Ravi, who's here that's related to, you know, his question was, is it worth spending money on Facebook ads? Especially seeing many companies abandoned Facebook for ads. Is it worth spending money on purchasing email lists or should we build our own over time? So, I mean, I guess the way that I would respond to that. You want to finish this one? Who popped that up? Was that you, Dean?

Yeah, yeah, I just wanted to show.

And then we'll come back.

This kind of. This is the ad that we're running right now in Longboat Key, offering The beach condo price report. So you could do that same thing.

The.

You know, the multifamily price report. Right. For. Are you Portland or Eugene? Eugene.

Eugene.

Yeah, Eugene. So Eugene, Oregon, beach condo or multifamily price report with a picture of a multifamily thing. These iconic things are great. This has been a formula that I've been using here to show the COVID of what we're offering, which has the title on the thing, circle the area because it's geographic. Right. So Eugene. There it is. That's just straight from Google Maps. With that, you know, I sent these components, I sent this map over to my Facebook guy, but I just, you know, cropped that image, drew that circle around it with my finger on the. On the thing left, configured it enough so that he could put the COVID of the guy that just described what I wanted on the COVID That's our formula. Everything we do, we use. We use Helvetica. And so everybody knows my specs for everything. So I could draw things with my finger or on a napkin and send a picture over and they can create what I'm looking for. But that's just straight from Google Maps with a filter on it. And it's just, you know, it pops from your. From your screen. But all very simple. Horse for sale. All amplifiers, 2020 Longboat Key beach condo report. Download now. That's. All right. So anybody who's looking for a multifamily, you know, properties, they're researchers. Right. Having market data available for people, for anything that you're doing is. Is great. We've been doing this with. With bathroom vanities, with kitchen, with bathroom sinks, with lighting, outdoor lighting, all these things where you can just have a guide or a catalog for things is great. Market data is very compelling for people. And I say market data being that it is the objective market data, not subjective opinion data on things anytime. I always talk about compelling is more powerful than convincing in this context. Right. Because everybody, if they're compelled to get the data, can never have too much. You can never know too much about the market when you're buying something. So that's always great. Wow.

Thank you.

Wow.

Yeah. So super. Is that helpful, Renee?

Yeah. Hey, Joe. Yeah.

No, awesome. Awesome. Yeah, I'm sure that's applicable to a lot of you here. Ravi did that. What? Didn't that answer for you? Because I want from your question, I'll say it again. You said, is it worth spending money on Facebook ads? Especially seeing many companies abandon Facebook for ads. Is it worth spending money on purchasing email Lists or should we build our own over time? I mean, the real answer is do everything that works, right? It kind of goes back to this thing that Gary Halbert, I first heard him say, there's three things you need in order to sell something, product or service, which we all have. You need a sales pitch or a marketing message, and then you need a delivery system. And I heard that before the Internet even existed back in the day, I think of, okay, what do we sell and how do we tell people about it? And so I think of websites, social media, anything electronically, even VR, even a lot of future technologies is just a way to deliver stuff, be it done through algorithms that tag you or pixels that follow you around, or just running offline advertising. Anything that's going to reach the message to market match. Based on what you've heard, how does that change your thinking about Facebook? Thank you so much, Joe and Dean, as always.

Every word you say is really gold.

To have the time and courage to.

Implement some of them because it's just.

Too simple and amazing. What I was thinking was our software.

Is a very high priced item.

It's $100,000 per year for an average company. It's a mentoring platform, online platform. It's a software as a service.

So I always wondered, is the audience.

On Facebook really my target buyers? Because they are there to watch cat videos is what I have always thought.

It could be wrong.

So the, the mindset of the people on Facebook is really not to look for software buyers.

So I'm just wondering, how do I use it intelligently to attract my buyers.

Who are VPs of HR, VP of learning and development kind of people. Well, can I say this too before Dean jumps in like, you know, don't marketers ruin just about damn near everything, right, once they start allowing advertising on a platform. If I had to sit and think of like, you know, where's the person spending 100 grand? I mean, the fact is they're everywhere. I mean even some people, you know, you might even find them on TikTok or something. It just depends on what you put in front of somebody. And if I had to say, oh, you know, you only had a choice of three social media platforms, Instagram, Facebook or LinkedIn. I would say LinkedIn. Right? But again, they're everywhere. It just totally depends. So how would you answer that, Dean?

Well, it's so funny because I saw it was in Toronto and I ran into Gary Vaynerchuk. We were speaking at the same conference and we were joking about this idea that he talks with Fortune 500 CEOs of companies, CMOs that are on one side saying that Facebook is ruining the election, that the Russians were influencing people through Facebook. They're all up in arms that all this was happening, that giving Facebook credit for being a powerful enough vehicle to change the outcome of elections like this. But then when you switch gears and talk about selling lipstick, that it's not enough to, you know, to. It's not where serious buyers are. And I'm in. I'll tell you what, there is so much stuff on it. You know, the real thing is never looking at one of them in isolation. You know, where it really is amazing is when you can look at it as the full journey. Nobody's just isolated to going to Facebook and nobody's just isolated to going to YouTube. But everybody will tell you now YouTube pre roll video linked to search intention on Google because they all own Google, owns YouTube. You can run now ads targeting people who search this specific phrase, whatever keywords you're doing the search engine advertising on the pay per click, you can target that person that searched for whatever it was, whatever those keywords were. Now when they come to YouTube, the next time they're at YouTube and they're going to watch a cat video or going to watch football highlights or going to watch whatever it is, the pre roll ad that comes up can target them based on what they were searching in Google for. So when you start thinking about all of these things where you can target one thing in Facebook to bring them to a landing page, that puts a pixel on their. Does a tracking pixel, and now you can follow them everywhere. You got to look at it holistically and start to see how can we shape the message to match where they are and what the context is. But it's so powerful when you add just the simplest things. Done. Right.

Perfect.

Thank you, Dean.

Thank you. That was helpful. And Ravi, it's an interesting scenario because like you said. So first off, think about this. So Ravi's company, Mentor Cloud. I'm an investor in Mentor Cloud, right. Ravi's a Genius Network member. We know each other. And one of the things even with utilizing Mentor Cloud in Genius Network, we're talking with the team and stuff, and me getting ready to go on sabbatical for a year. So this is like a backstage conversation, but I'll just make it publicly, right? Because it's like, all right, here's a guy that's got a process and a tool that I recommend and is really awesome. And because of how I want things to be rolled out within my company. It's not a matter of if, it's just a matter of when. And so all of us have things that are great and we think they're going to be great for someone. Everyone here thinks their stuff is the best thing for everyone. And what I had to learn early on is that I am not my own customer. I mean, it's one of the first things I learned early on. And I taught carpet cleaners in the very beginning because I was a carpet cleaner that had to figure out how to use marketing in order to make my business work. And I don't respond to Valpak coupons or money mailers. And there was no Internet back then. But lo and behold, if I ran direct response ads in Valpack or money Mailer with like free report or how to avoid for carpet cleaning rip offs, things like that, call and request a consumer awareness guide before we could direct people to websites or email or any of that stuff. Because there wasn't even no social media even for 10 years before social media came onto the front. So we're all trying to figure out how to do Internet marketing. And of course Dean back in 1997 invented the squeeze page. I realized that what I will respond to has no bearing on what other people respond to. So whenever you make decisions on what your marketing could or should be based on how you respond, what you're interested in, you know, I mean, again, it's like if you're liberal and want to sell to conservatives, if you're concerned, I mean like if you let that become a bearing, you're gonna, you're gonna, in the United States, you know, half, half the country is not going to identify with you, right? So the fact is people have different desires, different thoughts, different feelings, different ways of how they respond. And part of it is just fishing with bait that actually works. It's sort of. When I say that I actually often think people actually get it, but when I look at most behavior, they don't. And I even find myself defaulting to making decisions based on what my own personal biases are. Going back to Ravi's thing with Mentor Cloud, Mentor cloud, there's a sales cycle. I mean, even with someone that you know and has rapport and believes in what it is you're doing, part of it is like, well, can they, you know, can they do it right now? You can have the best restaurant on the planet and great food, but it's not appealing if someone just had a great meal, right? It may be four hours from now, but it isn't right at that moment. So all of us have a timing of when things are right. So it all goes back to the eight profit activators, which, you know, we have. That's what the whole, that's what the whole theme of I Love Marketing has been based on. If you go back to the very first episodes that me and Dean started recording in 2010 where we're talking about the eight profit activators, which in the report most of you have read breakthrough DNA which you can find on ilovemarketing.com I mean, one of the biggest, I think things to understand with what it is that we are teaching is that you constantly are in a conversation with people and you're constantly following up and you're automating it and you're dripping on people because you know, right now you may have a great product or service as something beneficial, but it may not be great for them right now. It might be two weeks from now, it might be three months from now. But the continual follow up, the consistency with it is what I think builds a great business. And the best marketing strategies on the planet aren't really as great as mediocre marketing strategies with consistency. Meaning if you're just super episodic and wanting things to work right away and don't have the stamina to stay with it and even identify stuff. See, when I mean stay with it, stay with things that are showing a level of success. The worst thing is having persistence. Things that don't work. You know, there's this whole personal development thing is, you know, like what's that, Winston? Never give up, never give up, never give. It's like, that's really bad advice because, you know, the best way to get out of a hole is to quit digging it. So, you know, some things you should just fucking give up on. They are not working. The testing shows, nobody gives a shit. And so if you're, if you are looking at the pulse of what is happening, then you can, you know, you can determine how long you should stay with something and. Which is a question I have for you, Dean, based on my ramblings here, because I want it to make sense. I'm not sure I'm conveying in the best of ways that I wanted to do this. Like how much effort do you put going after an audience that isn't responding right away? But you have, you know, you're trying to nail it. Because what we've seen over time, we've had countless thousands of people that have been clients of ours that it just didn't land right away. They just had. They're almost like safe crackers just trying to figure out what's the headline, what's the offer, what's the messaging, what's the bullet, what's the sense of urgency, what's the price point. There's so many little elements in order to getting the recipe right, but when you get it right, then all of a sudden the floodgates open, you start making money and you're like, oh, my God, I finally figured it out. But it's getting people to that point, including ourselves. I mean, this is something where, like Tarnon, my team, we're constantly tweaking things and we lose money on a lot of stuff until we figure out, oh, it finally works. And so if we could just not only guide people on marketing that works, but also guide them to not give up so easily. And also don't be promiscuous with how you spend your money. Some people, they are so convinced that it's going to work that they piss away a ton of money and then it ruins their ability to try to keep testing. So there's. So how would you, how do you, how do you, you know, kind of coach people on that? Dean? Because everyone goes through it.

So one thing is that you've got to be confident that you are fishing in the right pond, that you are, you know, that you're doing everything you can to make sure that the people that you are being patient with are the right people. And so there's two ways to look at that We've got, and this is all in your analysis of profit activator. Number one, your single target audience, right, is you've got two different states that they will be in. They are invisible prospects or they are visible prospects. And we can use Renee Nelson as a perfect example of this. That Renee has two. She's a market maker. She's doing, you know, transactional real estate with people who are buying or selling multifamily properties in Eugene, Oregon. So the, if she's going to be the listing agent on those properties, the people who own multifamily properties in Eugene are visible prospects. You can point, let's say there are a thousand multifamily units in Eugene or in the radius around where Renee is. Some number of those sell every year. There is some number of them that turn over. Let's say it's a 5% turnover rate. Maybe it's more, maybe it's less. But that means that there are 50 people who are going to sell multifamily properties out of those 1,000 in Eugene in the next 12 months. Now, the. It's an inevitability that if you know who the 1,000 people are that own those 1,000 properties, that the 50 people who are going to sell are a subset of that group of people. So you are fishing in the right pond. Now, if somebody's going to buy a multifamily property, that is an invisible buyer, an invisible prospect, because you can't get a list of people who are going to buy something. Just like if you're targeting chiropractors, you can get a list of chiropractors and say, there they are. If you're a chiropractor, you can't get a list of people who are going to twist their back next Tuesday. That's an invisible prospect, knowing what you're dealing with there. In the case of visible prospects with an inevitable turnover rate, you've got to be patient and realize that 95% of the people on that list, 950 of the 1,000 owners of multifamily properties in the radius around Eugene are not going to sell their property this year. And they've got no need for what you're doing. They're not. It's not even on their radar. They bought it, they're holding it for whatever reason. But when it becomes now, that's really. It is the only two time frames, once you identify, you've got visible or invisible prospects. The only two time frames are now and not now. So we do everything in our power to try and find the people who it's now. But we also have this awareness that if it's not now, that's okay too, because I'm going to be there when the time comes. And this is where branding comes into play. You know, I've really, in the last year come to a real insight about what brand is, because I think about it all the time. I mean, I love marketing and I think about it all the time and I watch and I observe what goes on in my world and what am I responsive to? And I observe myself as a. Because I've got inside this big frontal cortex brain, there's also a mouse brain right behind it that makes all the decisions. So I observed that mouse brain making the decisions that are happening. And it was in a context where I was in one of our forums, in our real estate forum, somebody said, do you know where I can get carpet installed today? We've got a closing tomorrow and the painters just spilled paint and. And the carpet's ruined. Now my brain immediately started singing 800-588-22-300, Empire. And I realized in that moment that my brain had been stuffed with that message that had been smuggled in to my brain without my permission. And it had been living there rent free for 25 years or more, waiting patiently for the moment that somebody said, do you know where I can get same day carpeting, same day carpet 800588 and it happened reflexively. And then I realized in that moment that is what branding is, is a brand is establishing in the mind of the person that you want to influence a buying reflex affecting now decisions. That's what a brand is to me. And when you think about that, when you know who your visible prospects are, branding makes sense. Branding, putting that buying reflex in their mind that if Renee is every month mailing to these 1,000 owners, the 1,000 owners of the the multifamily properties within a radius around Eugene, every month she's mailing them an offer for the December 2020 report on Eugene multifamily property prices. And then in January, the free January 2021 report and the February report and the March report, that that is establishing that cadence and that pattern in their mind that when the time comes that I'm thinking about selling one of my multifamily properties, I now want to know, well, what's the market doing? And now I'm ready to react to that stimulus because market data is something that I'm most happy to have. So there's that fine line of knowing, identifying. If you've got visible or invisible prospects. If you've got invisible prospects, the thing that you want to do is get visible prospects by offering the first thing that they would be looking for. Even if it's three steps away from what you're ultimately trying to convince somebody to do. Start with what would be the minimum viable commitment or interest level that somebody would have. And how can you use a book or report or market data as a pre suiter to gather the audience that you're looking for and then know that you're going to follow up with those people over time and be there when it's now that's the magic to marketing like that.

That's what I'm trying to say.

It is what you're trying to say. That's exactly right.

No, that was really good. Very good. So on a scale of 1 to 10, that whole little thing that Dean just went over, one, I didn't like it at all that Dean should no longer be part of this or 10 I thought it was great. Or anything in between. How would you rate it? Just go and put in there. Scaries.

Yeah.

Just being nice to you, dude. Just be nice to you.

Ilko lovingly disagrees with everything I say. I love that.

Elko, what would you add to this? You know, far away from Holland, far away from us. I mean, for you, it's like right there. Well, it's bedtime here, so I was like, let me listen to Dean for like, 15 minutes so I can sleep soundly. That is so good. Tarda. We're recording this, right? We use that as a clip, and that becomes part of the future, like, you know, marketing of the I love marketing thing is where, like, if you just have trouble sleeping, just, you know, listen to Dean for a, you know. Elko, how. How are you? What's working most effectively for you right now? Webinars. And how are you getting people there? So we work a lot with partners. As in partners who promote the webinar. Yeah. And then we have a commission split. Okay. So doing affiliate stuff. Yeah. So we do sort of custom made webinars per partner. So it's not just that they promote one webinar, but we actually make a branded webinar for them. Okay, excellent. Yeah, that works really well. So there's no ad cost. There's just upside only. Yeah. You know, and that's. That's interesting, too. As a marketer, you know, we obviously are really aware of endorsements and joint ventures, but if I even think back in my carpet cleaning business, where today so many Internet marketers. Oh, get other people to mail your list. I always thought of, all right, I'm driving through a neighborhood. This is the sort of stuff I would tell myself when I was a broke young person, trying to do visualization, hoping that I would make money one day, is I would drive through these neighborhoods and I would see these really beautiful, expensive homes. And I would think to myself that I couldn't afford trying to charge prices for services I myself couldn't pay, but knowing that I provided a good service, and so I had to. I'm not going to sell carpet cleaning services to all my broke friends, because when you're broke, most of your friends are broke. And so I was always thinking to myself, all right, my money is in their house. I just need to get in that house and clean their carpets and provide a service to them. And the sales letter is the withdrawal slip, because back then, we're handwriting checks. There was no cryptocurrency. And I would sit and think all Right. So my job is to make a withdrawal. And so what is the message that that person needs to hear in order to make withdrawal? Then I started thinking, okay, there's all these other people that know that have relationships with the people in these homes. Some of them are doing their landscaping. Some of them are doing their painting. Some of them are the real estate agents, the interior designers, the, you know, all the different service businesses. And so I started getting other service businesses to endorse my carpet cleaning services. And one of the best things that I did in terms of first joint ventures was dry cleaners of clothing. Because I was like, all right, any dry cleaner of clothing in a particular area, they have a relationship with all those people in that geographic area. And so when I hear people talk about targeting on Facebook or targeting anywhere, that is a thousand times easier to do than physically knock on doors at a dry cleaner. Because I remember my first. I remember the guy's name. His name was Dick McKissick. Really funny name. And I literally said. I went in and I said, I'd like to clean your carpets in your home or your store here free of charge so you can see the quality of my service. And if you like what I do, you know, I'd like to discuss with you recommending my carpet cleaning services to your clients, But I'd like you to see the quality of work that I do first. Because I wanted to show up because I read the book Influence by Robert Cialdini, who's now been a friend of mine for almost 30 years, and I was like, okay, I want to establish reciprocity. So I don't want to just ask them to endorse me. And I also was smart enough to know that, I think at the time when I did that, when I must have been 23 years old, maybe 22, 23 years old, and I was like, I'm just going to become a customer first. Let me just drop off clothes. It cost me something like four bucks. But the four dollars that I was spending with the dry cleaner, I wasn't showing up as a salesperson. I was showing up as a customer having a conversation with this dry cleaner about doing something for him for free. And he's like, sure, let's do the front of the store. And I did, and I established reciprocity. And now that I have that reciprocity, I said, you know, can I start recommending your, you know, my services to your clients? But he was still skeptical. You know, he doesn't know me. So I said, why don't you give me the names of some of the people that used to bring their dry cleaning here, but haven't come here for at least six months, and. And let's see if I can get them back on board. And by the way, if you're not in the carpet cleaning business or you're not brick and mortar, you do something completely electronically. That's not the point of this story. The point of the story is, it's the psychology. It applies to anyone that you're going to do joint ventures with. And so I literally said, let me call them on your behalf and I'll offer 100% money back guarantee. So he literally gave me some names, just a few names. I said, let me call him. I'll literally call them on the phone. I didn't have a sales letter. I just had an idea. I would call the people and I'd say, hello, my name is Joe Polish. I own Fibertech Professional Cleaning. I'm calling on behalf of Elegant Cleaners, where you're a client and what I'd like to do. We're now recommending carpet cleaning services. And we'd love to come out to your home and do one room up to 200 square feet, absolutely free, no cost or obligation of any kind, so you can see the quality of the cleaning. And if you like it, we'll give you a quote so you can get the rest of your house done. And it comes with 100% money back guarantee. If you're not happy, for whatever reason. When would you like to schedule your free room? I would try to say the whole thing without giving them a chance to talk to just instill. We're offering you a free room of carpet cleaning during the wintertime. Nine out of 10 people scheduled during summer. One out of 10. It was so interesting, based on summer in Phoenix versus winter, but it actually worked. And so I went and did a few jobs, Did a few. Almost everyone bought additional cleaning because when I would do a free room of carpet cleaning, it would instill reciprocity. I was very professional. I was very good. I had consumer awareness guides. That was my first marketing piece, was a consumer awareness guide. So I would send it to them beforehand so that they can actually read the educational guide and be educated. And then I would show up and I was doing all of this myself. I didn't have any employees. I was like, making the phone calls, doing the cleaning, doing the marketing. That's when I hear people bitch about running a business. It's like, give me a break. I mean, like anyone that's A real entrepreneur has to go through all kinds of shit when they're first. All you guys know that they're running companies. So I would show up, I would do the cleaning, and then I would say to them, you know, we'd love to have you come back to Elegant Cleaners. And when you do, just let Dick know what you thought of the cleaning. And so he. So these people would start going back to Elegant Cleaners and thanking them for the carpet cleaning. And what was really funny, even though I told them on the phone before the job, even though I told them during the job, they actually still thought it was Elegant Cleaners that was doing the carpet cleaning. I mean, people, as you know, really don't pay attention to almost anything, right? They're emotional creatures that just respond in the moment. And so Dick was like, wow, this is, like, amazing. And I gave him 10% of every job that we ended up doing. And so, like, within the first year of me doing that endorsement with him, we did $25,000 in business from his clients at Elegant Cleaners. And I cut him a check for 2,500 bucks. I mean, I was paying him actually monthly, but it ended up being about 2,500 bucks of the amount of jobs we had done that year. But the biggest benefit was he ended up having all of these people that he was not communicating with. And he realized. So it started off with phone calls. Then I got him to agree to let's mail a letter to all of your, you know, the people that you have on file, their addresses. So we started physically mailing them a letter offering them a free room of carpet cleaning, and it got them to come back. So it wasn't the revenue he was making from the. Carpet cleaning is the joint venture. It was the new business, the resurrected business that he.

Imagine that.

Exactly. Now with Elko talking about, we're doing affiliates, like, if you are giving people half the take of a particular program or whatever. So the point is, a lot of you are one or two joint ventures away from making a whole bunch of money. And if you don't know how to acquire clients who actually already has a relationship that you've built, you see, because someone has spent the time, money, and energy to build an established rapport with somebody, and if you were so much as to endorse them. So I started having real estate agents, interior designers. I even had. I remember. I remember one of the first. You know, why is your chiropractor writing you a letter about a carpet cleaning? I mean, that was the headline why is your chiropractor writing you a letter about a carpet cleaner? And, you know, by the way, you know, I have this great, you know, patient named Joe Polish, and he has his carpet cleaning service, and we're so happy with it. I'd love to recommend if you ever need. So, I mean, the sky's the limit. You just. You just need to look and see who already has that stuff. Dean, you've done a ton of this sort of stuff. Anything you want to say to that before I ask the next question?

It's all great. I keep thinking that Dick McKissing sounds so made up. Sounds like Bart Simpson might call Mo and get him to ask for Dick McKissing along with Amanda Huggin. Kiss.

You know what? Here's the interesting thing. That one letter that I did with Dick McKissick when I was a dead broke carpet cleaner, that ended up being my first joint venture, right? And I kept. And then when I started teaching carpet cleaners how to do this, would teach them that. And so one thing that I got a lot of cleaners doing is, you know, when they would. When I would do the boot camps that I did, the piranha marketing boot camps, you know, a lot of them would bring their wives and partners, and the vast majority of the purchaser of carpet cleaning is female. So like 9 out of 10 times, it's the woman of the household that's making the decision, because most guys are freaking slobs and don't even think about, you know, cleaning the carpet. And so I would. I would ask the women, how many of you here get pedicures and get your nails done? And, you know, a bunch of hands go up. How many of you guys are so annoyed with that because they're doing like, you know, none of the guys would understand it. And I would then ask, how often do you get your nails done? You know, four weeks, every six weeks? And I'm like, what if you had a way of getting it done free every time? And they're like, yeah, that'd be great. And I'm like, well, go to hair and nail salons and see if you can get certificates for someone that wants to build their business. And, you know, you can buy gift certificates and as part of the referral reward whenever someone refers, you know, a cleaning, if they can either, you know, I would give them choices, get their nails done, get a manicure or pedicure or get free movie tickets I different things. And they would find that they could actually get. They could have the hair salon or the nail salon endorsing their carpet cleaning services. And they could be helping to build that person's business. And if you get a great referrer, they just need to refer your carpet cleaning services. And they never have to pay to get their pedicure, get their manicure. And so there's all kinds of ways to figure out what your clients want and to ethically bribe them and to incentivize them and reward them. And I think it's worth sitting down literally with a notepad and just think of who is everyone in my sphere of influence that I know that has a relationship with people that could do business with me, that could recommend and endorse me electronically, through direct mail, through social media, through whatever. And you will find, almost always, if you take about an hour to do that type of brainstorm that you will discover, you know, hidden money that is right in front of your face that you never even thought about. And then the question becomes, alright, before I ask somebody to endorse my services, what can I do for them that they just want and be super helpful with not having an agenda that they have to endorse you, saying, I'm just going to be super helpful and do something really amazing. And maybe that is finding someone that has a great company that you can recommend their stuff and then they can recommend yours, but you do it first. And I mean just reciprocity is one of the greatest marketing tools on the planet, especially if you use it in a very authentic way. And it's not tit for tat. It's literally I'm just going to be a more useful, more helpful, more generous human. I'm going to figure out what's in it for them. I'm going to provide that for them. And naturally you kick in the reciprocity and then you kind of write your own ticket. I mean, that's why if I think if anything goes bad in my life and things always do, because I have this great ability to screw things up. There's a lot of people that I've done things for that always seem to be willing to help me whenever I need it, either financially or through other means. And you know, it's the whole premise of even recovery work with why I do a genius recovery. I mean, 12 steps is, you know, you help yourself by helping others. And so one of the it is a really great business strategy that hardly anyone does anywhere near the level of depth that they could go with it. Most people are very shallow with how they approach joint ventures, how they approach reciprocity. And how they approach just working with other people. But that's what true collaboration is. True collaboration is try to be more helpful to the other person than they are for you and always try to be the most helpful one. And it's great to have people like that in your life because you just so appreciate them. And it's also one of the greatest business strategies because half of the money that you're going to spend in generating business, I mean, it depends of course on the product, the service, the industry, but as a rule of thumb, half the money that you're charging for something is going to go towards the cost of marketing. It's the most, the most expensive cop. Say that again.

D. Yeah, there's something there that's the perfect. You know, everything you're saying is absolutely true that, you know, partner with other people, but if you can make them look like a star, if you give somebody else the opportunity to get the glory for something, that's going to go a long way. And what Joe was saying, when you understand this, just see if this fits for you. Because so often we're very reluctant to what I want to call it discount or to give any kind of incentives or anything like that. But what Joe was saying is if you really look at it, you really look at what's going on, there's a cost of acquisition that you're paying that is probably more than it would cost you to give somebody's first visit or first interaction with you to them for free. And that's where, you know, when I started really looking at this. And I realized that sometimes it's less expensive to get the result for somebody than it is to convince them to give you money to get the result.

Yep.

And so if Joe, you know, if you've got something, we did this again with the Mosquito Authority. Especially if you've got something that the lifetime value of a client is going to be captured over many interactions with you over a long period of time. If you can just get them on that track, you're going to have plenty of time to capture all of the value of that relationship if you could just get them started with it. Right. If you've got something, it's different. If you've got something that they're only going to ever do with you one time and it's a high ticket item and you can't, there's no possible way to kind of give that to somebody, then you've got to rethink it. But if there is a way for you to start it or there's some way for you to give somebody a gift card to give to somebody that makes them look like they gave somebody a real gift, Not a coupon, not a buy one, get one, or not a discount off something, something that has real value that somebody could use to exchange for. For a real thing. So you look at it that, you know what, the lifetime value of somebody as a carpet cleaning client is pretty substantial. If they get their carpets cleaned twice a year or once a year, or three or four times a year over the course of the lifetime. There's a lot in that, you know.

Can I say that too, Dean? Just please keep going. Because I like it when you reinforce stuff that I say. So the lifetime value of what you're talking about back then, when I first started in carpet cleaning, the lifetime value of the average carpet cleaning job was about 150 bucks, right? And if people just looked at it as $150 job, much different than if the person cleaned their carpets every year at 150 bucks and in five years it's $750. And what I would say to the cleaners is like, and if they just refer one single person just like them in a five year period, that $150 job is. So it's worth 750 if they do it once a year for five years. Then if they refer one person like them, that's now worth $1,500. And when you walk into that home, it's a much different psychological understanding of the value. If you look at it as just 150 bucks as a transaction, or if I had a relationship, it's 1500 bucks. And if they refer three people, then all of a sudden it's worth $6000. So do you look at that person as $150 or do you look at that person as 1500 or 6000? And then when you start understanding that, you realize that the business we're all in when it comes to money is the arithmetic business. And if you start looking at the math, then all of a sudden it makes sense.

It really does. And that makes all the sense. That's exactly why I was saying if you can go to anybody who has a business and offer to give them like you. Joe was doing a free room of carpet cleaning, which is a great thing. If somebody could in every. What if you go to the dry cleaner and insert in every, you know, hanging from every hanger that people leave out is a, an offer for a free room of carpet cleaning as a gift from the dry Cleaner.

I gotta tell you this. We, we started putting little door hangers over their hangers whenever the clothes would go out, pick it up. And what's funny is that one of his employees stapled one of the door hangers and it went into some ladies like shirt. And then they're like, oh my. I'm like, well, no, you gotta hang it over the hanger. But then I'm like, well, who prints your plastic bags, right? They have these plastic bags. So we started putting carpet cleaning on the outside of the bag because they're gonna. It's like all of a sudden, how about if you don't have to pay for the covers, you know, either be it paper or plastic over the clothing whenever they leave. And we'll just put a, we'll put an ad that call for a free. And then all of a sudden I started. Now that one little promotion with Dick McKissick has generated hundreds of millions of dollars all over the world for carpet cleaners that we taught how to do joint ventures. And of course Tim Paulson. And by the way, if any of you guys want to go deep into this, me and Tim Paulson did a program in 2004 for Nightingale Conan called Piranha. The seven success multiplying factors to dominate any market that you enter. And they still sell this program on Audible. Now it's a Nightingale Conan, so you can download it. It was literally done 16 years ago. But me and Tim, that's probably like about eight hours of us going over all kinds of marketing, including how we do joint ventures way back when. And it was interesting because there was really no social media back then. But the principles are still the same. I mean, you know, it's just, it's just a different delivery system now. But that's the whole point of what me and Dean are talking about. I think the eight profit activators are going to be just as relevant 100 years from now as they are today. Because people see the beauty of being a good marketer is marketing is about psychology. And people that actually think marketing is about technology, but they don't understand the psychology never do as well with the technology as the marketers that understand the psychology. Because marketing is applied psychology. It's just figuring out the delivery system, the format, the place in order to do it. Dean, for timing purposes, let me ask another question.

45. Holy cow.

Yeah. So Aaron, I think Aaron is on. He's a world class industry, world class dating and relationships. Company name Hitch for women. Question. I'm a dating coach for women. I'd like to attract more of my ideal clients and have them invest in my high ticket coaching program. How do I first narrow down my single target market and then dominate it?

I'm here.

Okay, good. Eric, by the way, hello. Go ahead. Is there anything else you want to add to it before I ask Dean to respond?

No, that's a very precise question. So we just go with that.

Yeah. I want to just say, I don't know if you know this, but Dean is the one that taught Evan Pagan how to create the model that Eben did years ago for Double youe Dating.

I should know that.

Yeah, yeah. And so you know, Dean literally through his marketing advice, gave Evan the thing which caused him to be to build the largest online dating advice business in the world. And Evan's now done over 100 million in sales. But it all started with the dating niche, correct?

Yeah.

Dean, why don't you take 23 years of experience and download in 5 minutes everything he needs to know.

Well, I think that the other side of that coin two things because you, you are a coach to women, right? Correct. And so you know, we did along with that the Catch Them and Keep Them book. The EBBA did the Double youe Dating for Men. Right. And we did Catch Them and Keep Them for Women. And then with Marie Forleo, I helped her with her book, which was a great title, is Make Every Man Want you, which was the launch of her stuff. And how do you get your visible prospects? Right. Because they're invisible, the ones who need your help. You can't buy a list of them. So you have to create the list of them and you put the information in front of them. That is what would be the title of the book that your ideal audience would want to have in their collection. And that's how you start. You 100% not try and get them to think a new thought or convince them that anything's going to be any work or they're going to have to change in any way. We want the book for them to see if. If all they have to do is read a book called Make Every Man Want you that they're. Oh, I want that. That's what they want. Right. Or keep them. Oh, catch and keep it. That's what I want. That's the book for me. Yeah, yeah. So it's. So by getting those people, what would be the mindset of the women that you are trying to attract for your clients? What would be the title of a book that you would definitely want them? They would definitely want to have. The challenge of the women I've talked to seems to be avoiding hurt and avoiding men who share half truths. Right. So men who aren't really single men who don't want long term commitment, but they want to give women the misleading impression that they do for something short term and casual. So women want to bypass the, the time wasting and deceptive ways of, of conventional dating. Yes. Yeah. And what's the. Do you have any. If we were to think about how, what do you have right now? What's the best way that gets new women to raise their hand and identify themselves to you? Do you have anything like that right now or so nothing that's working as a system. Right. So before COVID hit, I was going to a lot of in person networking events and I would stand up in front of a group of people and say, you know what? I'm dating coach for women. So that was getting me some traction. But once we moved to Zoom, I found it challenging to do more of, of that. So I'm just like starting again. Okay. And that's why I asked the question. So I don't have any strong system currently working to see, to see the women who put their hands out. Yeah, yeah. So this is part of the thing I would recommend that you think that through, of having a, a positive you're moving forward message book that somebody will raise their hand to get that you can in, in 10 or 12 words, encapsulate exactly what they want. Not because there's a difference between encapsulating what they want to move towards versus like you. It's more difficult when you're reinforcing what they don't want. Right. Is different. Right. So rather than focusing on that, their primary focus is going to be, you know, are they playing games or are they doing. Selling half truth? They're looking for the half truth as opposed to being focused on the thing that you're talking about. Right. Or the thing that you want them to be thinking about, which is how your method works. Right. Right. So I imagine that your advice to them is not to pay attention to the half truth. You probably, once they start working with you, you've probably got some positive move forward kind of messages. So I think you want to look to yourself for what is the thing that's working the best for you and then think about how can I describe what that is in 10 or 12 words? That would be, I want that. That's exactly what I want. Right? Yeah. And that's how you build your audience. I mean, that was There was no magic to. I mean, Eben would put up a squeeze page for Double your Dating and just drove for, you know, millions of dollars of ads to send people to that. And a high percentage of them would leave their name and email address. And he built a list of men who were paying attention to his stuff and then three times a week was sending out really valuable stuff. One of the driver of which was a Q and A style newsletter where people could email in their questions and then Eben would answer the questions. And some of These newsletters were 20 or 30 pages sometimes, right? Yeah, yeah.

Then of course on that, no go. Yeah. How long have you been doing this, Aaron?

I just made the switch to this niche last year, so last September.

So what were you doing prior to that?

Prior to that I was trying to do high tickets, closing for four different businesses, but it just. It didn't work. It didn't work. And then. Yeah, it's a long story as to how I got into this, but on November 24, 2010, I had bought Double your Dating. So I'm very familiar with Evan staff and newsletters. So.

Yeah, yeah. You know, it's interesting, the whole world of courtship, pickup artists dating, you know, like, you know, the John Gray's of the world. And then the pickup artists are different. One will teach you how to get a phone number and email and initial contact, you know, one night stands, whatever it is. The others will, you know, how to develop a relationship and keep it. One is about transaction, the other is about relationship. It's pretty funny. But there's, you know, if you think about it, so much of what we're all doing is trying to just, you know, get rapport. Right. Build rapport.

The thing about you said in 2010 you bought that. Yeah. So, you know, we launched that in 2001 and by 2010.

Right.

That was full autopilot. You know. He did for three years. Yeah, you know, three years plus three emails a week for that whole time. And after that, he was able to pull out, you know, all of the best emails from that thing and keep them in a constant loop. So the new people were coming. It was still the same front end. You download the W dating book, you get on the list and you get three emails a week which were already written. Oh, okay. Right. So this is the thing. You don't have to constantly know that. Yeah. Do it forever. It's like Seinfeld. You get to go into syndication. And by 2010, Eben was basically semi retired from. From. Oh, no, I mean really from Doing new stuff. The product catalog was already built out. He really built an entire business around helping men. Not it started out with the baseline thing that they want to do. Double your dating is that's help meeting them where they are. But the very end, it starts becoming man transformation and then it becomes now entrepreneur training. And that's really where how it all evolved, you know?

Yeah, but Dean, isn't that like the whole personal development industry? It's like someone's messed up in one area, they try to get better, then all of a sudden they start evolving as they go along. Now the question is, there's like me. Well, it's pretty much everyone. If you like, who sucks the most at time management or people that, you know, write books on time management, now they may be better at it because they figured it out or they're still suffering from the. I mean, I say this kind of jokingly, but I mean if you just want to know what someone has a challenge with in their life, just take a look at what the hell it is they teach to other people. Right? So I mean, I started like, look, I do genius recovery and I do marketing, two things that I needed dramatic help with. And so I learned them. I got good at it. I started, you know, teaching it to other people where I really like. The authentic thing is when someone's actually had a real transformation in their life and, and then they're able to teach it versus someone that's still in the middle of the soup. They haven't figured it out, but they hold themselves out to be experts in it. Right. And that, that's, that's the weird, that's the weird thing about. That's why I have a love hate relationship with personal development, is because there's some really amazing, awesome people in it and there's some of the biggest narcissistic crazy ass people that hold themselves out to be like the gurus. They're usually, they're the most famous ones though. They're the ones with millions of followers on Facebook. And then you can always tell the real narcissist look how famous they are. And again, that's not black and white. There's a lot of really well known people that are not narcissists. However, I would say that's the minority, not the majority. Yeah, so that's my little dig on personal this because I think it's funny. So we're almost out of time here and if you need to jump, we'll go for a few more minutes to wrap this up. We just me And Dean want to wish everyone a super happy Thanksgiving. And I'm trying to think who posted earlier. I'm so sorry I've not been able to keep up with all the comments here. But when we're talking about where is it, boy? Post. It was a post. Oh, right here. Okay, Bob, you wrote Great Value again today. A perfect example of what you are discussing on Giving value. First, from both Joe and Dean. Yep. See, this is the free room of carpet cleaning put into the form of an I love marketing podcast. I mean, we just are putting things out to the world that are valuable. For one, we like helping people. We like sharing what is it that we've learned. We realize that a lot of people that, you know, I mean, for me, I sell, you know, $25,000 groups to people that run, you know, that make a million dollars plus a year. And so there's a lot of people that aren't at a level in their business that they can afford to join the type of group that I have and stuff. But one of the ways we help people is we put information out there. And so for every consumer awareness guide that I distributed to help people choose a carpet cleaner, a handful of people ended up becoming clients, but a lot of other people did not. And so my belief is, operate from a state of abundance. Your knowledge is not fine china. I mean, it's, you know, you don't hoard it to yourself. I think life gives to the giver and takes from the taker. So one of the things that we try to demonstrate is we talk about these strategies is this, be really useful. And if you can end up making money with what it is that we do, if you can end up saving money by not being an advertising victim, if we can help you go into a niche, into a place that's really important and valuable and makes you happy, then we believe that one day you're going to probably become a client of ours. And even if you don't, it doesn't matter. You're still going to hopefully learn some stuff. So we're really appreciative and grateful that we have been able to learn what we've learned and we're able to share it with other people. And that's one of the reasons why we tell people all the time, keep giving your best stuff to people and don't worry about, give some of your best stuff away. Let people sample it. Let people try it. If you have a hard time selling something that's really valuable, like AJ had a question earlier about breathwork and Maybe that'll be the last one we answer here. I'm not in that business. But I would also give that away to people because what would happen is if they have a really great result, reciprocity may kick in and they'll just want to hire you. And so there's all kinds of ways to test this stuff out. But the point is, if you look at the original podcasts that me and Dean did see, this has never been a primary business for me and Dean. We've never done sponsorships. We could have made and still could make a lot of money if we started having people sponsor the show. And you know, we. And sell all kinds of stuff. We just have never really done that. We've interviewed so many people. We've got 350 plus episodes of I Love Marketing. And when me and Dean first started this back in 2010, Dean was doing a podcast called Marketing Monday, Marketing Mondays. And one of the things that we had just had a really great 90 minute conversation. And I said, you know, could you imagine if other business owners heard the conversation we just had, how valuable that would have been for them to hear? And he's like, so that's when we decided, yeah, let's just record our conversations. And the first 50 episodes of I Love Marketing. We hardly talked about anything that we were selling. What we, me and Dean said, let's just like give away the best strategies we have on marketing until people start complaining, why are you not trying to sell us something? And I said, the moment they're like, I don't get, I don't understand what's wrong with you guys. You're teaching us marketing. You're teaching how to sell and you're not trying to sell us anything. Like, what kind of marketers do that? And, and that was the conversation me and Deed had. I was like, yeah, let's totally fuck with people in the marketing business that you can't even have a conversation with them without them trying to pitch something to you. I go, let's just like sell. Let's just not try to sell them. Let's just teach them how to sell. Let's just teach them good stuff. And I don't know if they're still up there, but the original, like, reviews on itunes when the podcast first came out, because there wasn't all these different podcast channels back then. Like, people would be, other than bitching about the sound quality because we're doing it on the phone, people would be like, this is amazing. This is so helpful. I'm making money. All this Sort of stuff. And then finally they're like, I don't understand. Why are you guys doing this show? You don't try to sell anything. All you do is share stuff that's better than what other people are charging for. We don't get it. And that's exactly what we wanted. We wanted to have enough rapport to where we earn the right to be able to pitch things to people. And then, you know, and there wasn't a lot of podcasts. We've got hundreds of people to start doing podcasts that stem from us doing the I Love Marketing podcast show. But that's always been our approach. I mean, if there's anything that I think me and you, Dean, have done consistently for 20 years is that we just put out really good stuff to people. We 100% guarantee the work. We learn as much as we can about direct marketing. And it just tends to. It just tends to work.

Find the conversation. Trying to turn Tim Ferriss onto podcasting.

Yeah, yeah, we're talking to Tim because we interviewed him a few times for me and Dean have known Tim for, you know, since 2008, I think it was Marie Folio is the first one that introduced me to Tim, I think. And then I went to Vietnam for 10 days with Tim and Matt Mullenwig in 2009. You can still see videos of us in Vietnam if you go on YouTube and stuff. And my very first YouTube video was posted Chad Hurley, the founder of YouTube. I was at the YouTube headquarters with Tim Ferriss in 2008 and he actually helped me. The founder of YouTube helped me upload my very first YouTube video of me riding a unicycle there with Tim Ferriss. And so we had helped him quite a bit early on in his. When he. Four hour workweek, four hour body, four hour chef. And we're like, dude, you should really do a podcast. He's like, nah, that's not. I don't. I don't like the idea of doing that. I really think we talked a bit to starting the podcast finally, but it took him about a year. And I'm trying to find that old original recording to show. Yeah. Because he's now built, obviously one of the biggest podcasts in the world. But yeah, I mean, there's a million ways to do it. You can do it with books. You can do it like Denise Worden, you've been on this whole thing and you were on the hot seat during one of our genius network meetings. Is there any questions that you wanted to ask today? Because I apologize I should have called on you for anything. If she's still there. She might. I just see her picture. She might have taken up. She might be grabbing coffee or something. All right, forget that one that I just yelled out to AJ Since I met. What's your question? AJ or Gina, if you can tell me. What? Joe, Donnie Gordon. Hey. Sorry, I just. I lost it on the computer where I couldn't find how to get back in. I don't have any questions.

It's been great.

It's just lots of ideas flowing like always from you guys. Really, really. So I'm just taking it all in. And Denise, I actually was referred to her by James Nestor, who's now become a fan friend. He's the guy that wrote an incredible book called Breath.

Breath.

If you've not read Breath, then read that book. It is absolutely a massive game changer. It's so good. So good. And Denise, if you want any. If you want to have anyone, you know, look into what you do. Feel free to post your. Post a link to your website. And even Barry, her husband, Barry Goldstein, he's like, creates amazing music for, you know, Daniel, Amen, Joe Dispenza, all kinds of stuff. And he has a book. Barry. Post the link to your book and buy Barry's book. He'll post the link here. And there you go. So, Dean, anything else you want to say to wrap this up?

This has been fun. Let's do it again.

Please subscribe and please follow all of the propaganda that we put out there, because it's. It's just gonna benefit you. I mean, seriously, what else is more important than doing that? And take really good care of yourself. And I'm glad that you all joined us today and we wish you a amazing rest of your week and we will see you on the next I love Marketing meetup. And we have a lot of genius network members here. We will see you guys soon. So thank you, everyone. Have a wonderful day. Don't miss another episode of I Love Marketing. Subscribe today@ilovemarketing.com subscribe if you'd like to access the show, notes, resources, or the exercise to help you take action on what was discussed, please visit ilovemarketing.com 387. Sa.