Mastering High-Stakes Communication: How to Lead, Influence, and Connect Without Losing Control with Chris Voss, Jefferson Fisher, and Joe Polish

Go yourself you one more time. That's what happens when you try to jump in with common ground. It's very well intentioned on your part. You mean well and you can't imagine the negative reaction in the other person. Oh, I'm not alone. Oh, thank you so much.

I'm not alone.

When you share your common ground, you feel good. You feel like you're connecting.

Are you short? Are you aggressive? Are you defensive? Are you direct? Are you clear? Are you passive? Are you people pleasing?

Anger is an intoxicant that will, as they say, if you give a speech when you're angry, it'll be the greatest speech you ever regret.

Aggressive says I don't respect you. Assertive says I both respect you and I respect me. Passive says I don't even respect me. It is the words you use and you choose. What you say is who you are. Sometimes it is what you don't say that is more powerful than what you do say.

How can you be a domino for someone else? The Joe Polish Show. Any problem in the world can be solved with the right Genius Network.

The Oxford dictionary tells you there are 171,000 words in the English language. How you use those words is the key to your communication ability. And that's why eight years ago, when Michael Bernoff joined Genius Network, our members ability to communicate became even better. Michael is a master in the art of science and the art of human communication. And that's also the name of his company, the Human Communications Institute. He's developed technology and systems to help his clients understand powerful psychological triggers and how effective communication strategies can increase your connection, your influence and even your health. At 6 foot 6 tall, you can expect big ideas from a big man. Get ready to take off cause here comes Michael Bernoff.

All right, thank you, Joel.

Appreciate you.

I'll get him. And it's six foot seven. Six, seven, six, six.

Well, I'm excited. I'm very excited about this for a lot of reasons and this is going to be incredible. It's coming up next. The center for Management and Organization Effectiveness found in a recent survey that business leaders like you spend between 79 to 83% of their time communicating every single day. How effective you are as a communicator is a question a lot of us have to ask. How really great are you? The next discussion is about mastering high stakes communication. How you can navigate critical conversations, build deeper connections and influence without aggression. In a world where clarity, empathy and confidence separate those who lead from those who follow the skills. You're about to understand matter more than ever now in your life. Now, to guide you on this journey, there are two exceptional experts. I was talking to them backstage and they are masters in the art of communication. A formal trial attorney turned communication strategist, Jeff Jefferson Fisher. He wrote a best selling book, the Next Conversation, how to argue less and talk more. His viral content, which you should go look at. Okay. And a school of communication have empowered millions and millions of people to speak with clarity and have calm conviction in their voice. Now, also joining Jefferson. This is going to be great. Is Chris Voss. He is a former FBI international hostage negotiator, now CEO of the Black Swan Group and co author of the book Never split the negotiating as if you're lucky. Life depended on it and it actually does. Chris brings to the discussion life or death negotiation experience and proven tactics for everyday influence and aligning the alliance of building and building yourself to get where you want to go in life. So if you can help me, welcome right now to the stage Jefferson Fisher, Chris Voss and your host, Joe Polish.

Perfect.

Thank you, sir.

Sir.

Thank you, guys. You all right? Enjoy. Thank you.

Thank you.

Has me to your right, Chris Jefferson.

How about over here?

You want to be to his right? Right there?

Yeah, this is right.

Oh, and you. We'll do that. Chris actually said he wanted to be to the right. I don't know why.

We'll put the mic on the left side of my jacket so you guys could hear me.

All right. So, practical guy, what do you guys think?

Hey, everybody.

All right, this is going to be great. First off, thank you both for being here. There's sort of a ulterior motive that I wanted to do have a conversation with both of them. So Chris originally introduced me to Jefferson. Both of them are master communicators. Once in a while, I do okay. I could dramatically improve. And really this is sort of an intervention because I ramble too much. I don't often communicate as effectively as I could. I figured. Let me. Because I always say that a lot of my mostly male friends that won't go to therapy or 12 step groups, what they do instead is they start a podcast and then they start interviewing bright people. And that makes everyone think they're actually smart in a lot of ways. So I'm looking for help here. I want to be a more effective communicator. Not only for. But there's truth to that. In all seriousness, though, going to your book and having been through Chris, I mean, we've done lots of stuff, me and Chris together, it is phenomenal it is amazing. Just the little simple tweaks that you suggest in both of you. And so I thought it'd be so great to have both of you have a conversation. So I grabbed this off the wall of our. This is in our kitchen, me and Cherie. This is a photo from Burning Man. So on the screen, if you could zoom in and show this. But it's kind of. I think this. I may use this throughout the day, but you see these envisioned two adults with back to back, and then two little kids. I'll keep it still.

Sorry, sorry.

So you can see this, right? And Anna's head was right in the middle of that on the screen.

It's all right.

Thank you. You know, they come from Argentina. She has no idea what's. I'm kidding. Give it up for Anna. Anna's awesome. She's my va. So I think this is sort of a lot of the human condition. And my buddy Sean Stevenson gave this to me as a gift. And Sean was my best friend, and I was in the hospital with him the day he died. It was sad.

I have a very clear memory of that day.

Yeah. So let's start with Boy Chris. What is. And then I'm going to flip back and forth with Jefferson. Is finding common ground a good or bad thing? And I want to get both of your opinions on that. When we're in communication with someone, like, let's see if we can find common ground. What does that actually mean? And what are the pros and cons to that?

All right, Jefferson, see, if you go first, then I get a torpedo. Everything you say.

Yeah. You see that? Yeah, exactly.

We're actually not gonna just teach how to communicate. We're gonna teach you how to gaslight and manipulate some. Yeah, yeah, exactly.

Do you want to find common ground in conversation? What do you guys think with arguments? Yeah. Let's say show of hands. How many people feel like you should try to find common ground? How many people think. All right, good mix. I think both can be true. I don't think it's mutually exclusive. There are a lot that try to win the argument. I try to end the argument. Is common ground something that you can reach? Sometimes. But is that the goal? Generally not usually. It's a sense of connected understanding, whether it's common or not. There's that line that you should say, meet them where they are. Right. There's some people you should be nowhere near where they are. They come down on their level. No, you shouldn't be anywhere near the level that they should Be maybe they are way down below and you don't even need to go two steps down. So do you need to find common ground? I think it's a great goal to have, but is it the finish line? No. And I think especially negotiation, there might be somebody who could shed some light on that.

Yep.

Is in my view, finding common ground is sometimes a way to tank it rather than a way that is going to actually succeed in speaking your truth, asserting what you need. Say, I can be assertive and still be kind and not find any common ground whatsoever. And there are people that are toxic personalities that there is nothing that you have in common, but yet you still need to keep and hold your boundaries. So that would be my 2 cents on it.

Okay. All right. What about you?

First of all, what we want to find is common values. And I think that was the whole idea that common ground was initially designed to help us find that if. If we. If we align on our core values. And my. The guy that teach coaches this eos, Jonathan Smith, we've also got a book coming out with him and a guy on my team later this year. Actually. It's for for sale. Now, when we first went to eos, he said, all your relationships, a L L all, all succeed or fail based on alignment of core values, whether it be personal or professional. So then the issue is, how do you discover core values? And I think we think that common ground is a really bad way to discover core values. And we look at it as demographics. And like, I couldn't possibly. Other than gender, I couldn't possibly have more common ground with my three sisters. And we argue about everything. Yeah. And we, you know, we got no business being in business together, but we got all, you know, same ethnicity, same geography, roughly the same age, same religion, same, same, same, same. All the stuff we think of as common ground. And so why is it such a problem and why is it such a distraction? Because you feel phenomenal when you share common ground. You feel connected to the person you're talking to. Oh, yeah, Same thing happened to me. Oh, yeah. Oh, my God, that was great. Yeah. And so you feel very connected to them. And what they feel when you're doing that is that their story is being stolen. They feel squashed. You have that happen to you and you think to your, oh, you had to come up with a better story than me. Yeah. Can you top this? You had to top this. And so it's two. The empathy is about two people in the exact same moment having vastly different experience and a sharing of common Ground is typically that I feel great when I tell you about what it was like when I grew up or what I went through as a kid. I'm having a wonderful time. You're having a wonderful time. You feel like you're bonding to the other person because it's so phenomenal and feels so good to you that you're completely oblivious to the fact that the other person's being turned off, if not angered, and so understanding the same moment between you and them. And if I may, one of my favorite stories on Common Ground, because we keep trashing this in my company all the time to I would try to trigger you to share common ground with me and I'm going to try to appreciate it because you're going to feel phenomenal in a moment. But should I try to share common ground with you or even weaponize against you? I'm stuck in Los Angeles 2ish years ago. American Airlines flight from D.C. to Vegas, supposed to connect through Phoenix day before email, you're connecting through LA instead of Phoenix. Like I don't care as long as I get home, you know, you can connect me through Nome, Alaska, as long as I'm getting home on time. So gonna connect through la. Okay, no big deal. Got an hour layover, plane takes off over an hour late. So as the plane is taking off, me and 200 other people, 300 other people get to sit for five hours thinking about how the airline's getting ready to strand us in a city we had no plans on being at all the day before. And you know, it's a five hour flight and we're going to get there late, which means you spend spending a night near the airport in a lousy hotel. They're going to give you some stupid meal voucher which you don't know how to cash in. Even if you did, it would be good for a lousy burger. So we got five hours to be unhappy. And of course on a plane they say, don't worry, there'll be somebody waiting for you at the gate to help you make connections when you get there. People at the gate are not that stupid. There's a plane of 300 angry, pissed off people coming across the country that are going to come off that airplane mad because they're in a City that 30 hours earlier they didn't plan on being in. So the gate is abandoned when we.

Come off the plane.

Like these people are long gone. They're not stupid. And so 300 of us are rampaging through the airport looking for American Airlines customer Service or whatever the hell it is. And I finally get to the line, I'm about seven people back, and the guy in the front of the line is just hammering this poor little Asian lady up there. And you're stranded me in Los Angeles. I could rent a car and drive home faster than you're gonna get me out of here early in the morning. I'm not gonna. Who's gonna let my dog out? And he's killing her. So I'm standing back there and I feel bad for both of them and I want to intervene, you know, that's what I do. And so I finally decided I'm gonna do a little common ground. Let me try common ground here, Let me see how this works because I badmouth it all the time. Maybe I'm wrong. And I say, hey man, none of us planned on being in LA tonight. They're gonna put us up in a lousy hotel. They're gonna put all of us up in a place and they're gonna get us up early in the morning. Each one of us here could rent a car and drive home and get there sooner than they're gonna get us out of here in the morning. It is, we are all in the same boat. It is not her fault. Now the movies and tv, if somebody would have said something like this, they gotta turn around and go.

Oh, I'm not alone.

Oh, thank you so much.

I'm not alone.

That's the movies and tv. In real life, he goes, go fuck yourself. And he goes back to yelling at her long enough, only long enough to stop, stop yelling at her, look back at me and go fuck you one more time. That's what happens when you.

I feel it's so endearing.

That's what happens when you try to jump in with common ground. It's very well intentioned on your part. You mean well and you can't imagine the negative reaction in the other person. And when you share your common ground, you feel good, you feel like you're connecting. And the other person at a bare minimum is like, Jesus. Even if it was my story, it doesn't help me, I don't care. So that's a brilliant question. And Jefferson's answer had all these great nuances to it. Like, maybe you don't want to share common ground, maybe you don't want to meet them where they are, maybe you don't want to be where they are. And what I'm saying is you're distracted by how good it feels to share. And the other person is not validated Their empathy is about validating the other person, telling them how they feel without saying, yeah, you know, I felt the same way. Here's what I found that feel, felt, found. Nonsense. And Jefferson gives some great nuanced answers as to other aspects of communication. What I'm really trying to emphasize is this is why you fall into this trap all the time. Because your intention is to connect and to help. And it feels so good to share your story when the other person feels stepped on.

Yeah. So, okay, let's talk about same thing.

Happened to me one time.

What's that?

It's a bad joke.

Same thing happened to me one time. Who out of the two of you, who do you think has better approaches for pickup lines for single people?

It's so far in my past that I have no idea. And his wife is backstage. What the hell are you doing?

I'm certainly not finding common ground. I mean, I'm not.

This is the example where you don't want to meet them where they are.

So. By the way, I'm giving everyone a copy of Jefferson's book. You got a copy for everyone? Okay. It's called the Next Conversation. Jefferson Fisher. And there is a QR code here and we've put a sticker there. And after you read it, go and review it. Although the book is a bestseller, it's doing extremely well. I'm going to come back to that in a moment. And Chris, we got stickers for Chris's book too. For all of you. I want you to do the same thing. And then when I first met you.

I gotta, I gotta throw something else in here.

Go.

All right, so this is gonna sound selfish.

You see what you did? That's such a good technique. Do you hear that? This is gonna sound selfish if and.

Only if it's worth it. Only, only, only if it's worth it. Five star review or not at all. Because if you really think people should, should read it, the five. And again, well intentioned. Somebody else's book. It wasn't mine and they shared with me. This is the best book I ever read. Phenomenal. Life changing. Three stars.

What the.

Like that. It's, you know, it's, it's almost, it's almost like the ratings on Lyft and Uber. Like the five stars if you feel it. Only, only, only if you feel it. Because the stupid thing is on a ratings, anything less than a five star review actually doesn't help. And Jefferson's book is worth five stars. I read it. I recommend. Adds to your thinking. It's Nuanced between reading it and following him on Instagram and also hearing him speak, it gives you, it makes it three dimensional. So if you're gonna rate Jefferson's book, give him five stars.

Thanks, Chris. And by the way, you actually found out about Jefferson on Instagram, right?

He was killing me on Instagram. I had to find out what the.

Hell he was doing.

How many of you follow Jefferson on Instagram? Okay. How many of you have never heard of Jefferson Fisher before?

Okay, that's awesome.

Go follow him on Instagram. So here's the thing. A lot of social media, it's becoming more like so much AI slop is out there. And there's a lot of stuff, but there are some people that put out incredibly useful content that's very short. Just because there's so many entrepreneur. Everyone here is an entrepreneur running a successful company. You accidentally, I think, I don't know if it's accidental. You obviously uploaded a video of you in a car and it just took off. And the majority of your videos are you in your car giving one minute pieces of advice, sometimes less, that are really useful on communication. And now how big is your following on Instagram?

It's over 6 million on Instagram.

Over. And you've not paid traffic. All organic.

Yeah.

Okay, so think about that. Putting out just useful content that people like and they share it, you know, and that's us on Instagram. I mean, across all the different channels, you got millions of people that follow you. So I mean, you've probably been asked the question many times, what is the formula if there is one, other than being. Well, here's what I'd say. I mean, it's a way to segue my book into it. Because in between these two, much better, much better books than mine is, you guys do follow the title of my book, what's in it for Them. You do focus on what's in it for. Even with hostage negotiations, you think of, okay, someone kidnapped someone. What's in it for them? They want something. So how did you do this and how do you think about it?

A show of hands, how many people follow as a social media account, where they work. Where they work. Or maybe their own social media. You have your own social media, you have maybe your own business. Here's a question. Would you still follow it if you didn't work there? Most people wouldn't. I've spoken to countless people, not as many as Chris, for sure. Of people that have worked big companies or have their own business. And yet when it comes to actually Valuing what they do, they wouldn't be the one to follow it. And so what's the key to that? What did I stumble into, but also had a very big intention to, that the value that I wanted to give was value that people can share. You can talk about legal things, and I'm a trial attorney. I can talk about law stuff, but who wants to share that? Why do you watch what you watch? Why do you share what you share? When you're using the bathroom or you're trying to on the couch, and you're scrolling and you're. When you're in bed, when you should be asleep and you're scrolling, why do you watch what you watch, what brings you value? And a lot of the times it's not people that are just selling. It's just giving value to give value. And what happens over time is that that community is built. Most people come in, I think, with the wrong first impression. They want you to do something for them. That is not the key. The key is for you to do something for free. I built my following. I think I was over 4 million before I even did a single buy. This, not once, because people notice. Because what happens is people get really quick to hear, what's your call to action? What's your conversion rate? What's this? What's that? And they want to do the metrics when they're not focused on what's helping the people. So that, to me, is the key. And really, you could talk about anything. It doesn't even have to be about what you're doing. I'm a trial attorney and I talk about communication. But you know what? If I wanted to. What's a passion of mine? I love sweet tea, sweet tea, sweet tea I'm down in Texas I love sweet tea I bet you. If I could start all over, here's what I'd do. I'd go and say, you know what? I'm gonna start reviewing sweet teas all across, wherever I go, and say, hey, everybody, it's Jefferson here. Another sweet tea review. My day's going well. Let me try this. I try it, I rate it. And you know what? The algorithm is gonna show it to other people that also like sweet tea. And you know what they're going to say, Hey, I think I kind of like this attorney. Why? He's the guy who drinks sweet tea. That's how it happens. That's exactly how it happens. I made videos in my car. I don't look like an attorney. I'm not in a suit. And Tie. I don't have law books. I'm not focused on what's the. What's the best camera, the best lighting. It was me and my phone. That is primarily what it is in the front seat of my car. Seeing sippy cups and pink car seats, because that's what's real. That's where the authenticity comes in to play. People and juries we can sniff if you're not being real from a thousand miles away. And we follow the people that are real. Think of the people who you follow right now. Some of the biggest creators, makeup tutorials or people doing stuff. They're not the most best looking, they're not the most polished. They're just real because you end up being invested in their personality. So that goes into, why are you doing what you're doing and what's your mission? I promise you, your legacy is going to matter much more than the amount of followers that you have. Because I can promise you, as somebody who probably has more followers, probably than anyone here, maybe in this room. It's just a number. It doesn't change anything about you or what you're doing. It's just a digit on your phone. That's all it is. It's the people you get to touch. So that's the secret sauce to me.

Yeah. Thank you. That was really good. So is there a side of you? Because I've never seen it yet or see it doesn't come through unless you're very sneaky, like you're a trial attorney. When do you get aggressive? Do you have a ruthless sort of part that comes out? What creates you to get angry or what creates you? Because you really, you have this great line. What triggers you, teaches you. So when you get triggered. And I want to talk about this too. And also because there's the intellectual stuff, there's the words, then there's the tone of voice, then there's the nervous system. There's the part of you that really can get enraged. And I'd like to. I mean, how. How are you in a trial? I mean, do you. Do you get aggressive when needed or when do you pull. What are the tools in your toolbox that you need to. Do you ever need to wield a sword? Metaphorically, yeah.

There's definitely times where that's called for. But you have to earn it. Have you ever been interrupted before? And the first line is like, oh, okay, I guess I'm just not talking anymore. All of a sudden they go, oh, it's kind of a backlash. They weren't expecting that if I have a very strong response to something, I haven't earned that yet in trial, I am extremely defensive of my client. And so, yeah, you're going to have a sense of what I'm going to tolerate and what I'm not going to tolerate on behalf of other people. Because you're advocating. That's different. But in trial, you have a jury of 12. What we say is, you can just take 12 people from Walmart and there's your jury, and that's what happens. You think it's funny? It's not 12 people in this room. No, no. It's 12 people off the street. All right. That's deciding a lot of fate. People think that attorneys. The billboards, right, that you see, there's tons of them. This like, have you been injured? I'm the Texas cheese grater. You know, like, stuff like that. Call me and get that cheddar now kind of thing. It's a facade. Most of the people who do that, they never even see the light of day in a courtroom. It's just a front. It's just a front at all. It is. Somebody else is handling the case. You can't behave like that in a court of law. You can't even. The TV doesn't even show it. What I can promise you is the people who actually are the best trial attorneys are not the bulldogs. They're the people that have a very hard line and they know where it is. See, if I want to find resolution, then I'm going to be as nice as I can be. The worst is if I have an attorney who's a jerk on the other side. Somebody who's a jerk on the other side of you. Does that make you want to do anything for them? Does it make you want to reach across? Does it make you want to be a little bit more reasonable if they're ugly to you, make snide comments. I have these attorneys sometimes that will use a chance to talk to me as a mouthpiece as to why they should win, and it's just a waste of my time. What you need to look for when it comes to the. Do you be aggressive? Aggressive says, I don't respect you. Assertive says, I both respect you and I respect me. Passive says, I don't even respect me. So what's the line there? It's assertiveness. If I'm going to use my words to show that this is what I believe, to me, if you're going to be strong, I mean, do you say, do I get mad? Yeah. Of course I get mad. Do I use my words to make sure I'm standing my ground?

Yeah.

But if you use your words to cut below the belt, people will remember and they will respect you less. Sometimes it is what you don't say that is more powerful than what you do say. I've had it before in trial where somebody says something that's rude. I've had an opposing jury of 12, judge, court reporter, bailiff, opposing attorney, and he passes the witness and he said something dismissive, something along the line or. No, this is what it was. He had. It was in closing argument. And I got to go second. And after he went first, he had been talking about my experience. I'd only had like three trials. And he was talking about how green I was and about something about the ink on my license hadn't even dried yet, something like that. So what I did, when I got up and it was my turn, I pulled out my license, my bar card. You have a bar card. And I looked at it. I didn't even say anything. I looked at it in the light, kind of rubbed it, looked at my hand, showed him, huh? I put it down. And then I went on about giving my closing argument. Now, see, I could have gone up there and said, don't listen to anything he said. You know, he's just a cogity old whatever. Or I could have decided to take a different path. And so it's always reminding yourself in conversation, choose to do something different. And when you do, people notice. If you always are at level 10 and you're known for being a bull in a china closet, you don't surprise anybody when you always are at a 10. But if I keep it at a 3 and I stay in the pocket and I'm being kind and I'm being respectful, and sometimes I got to take it to a 10, people will always notice, and they'll take it a whole lot stronger.

Wow, that's good. It's valuable. So say something better than that, Chris.

Yeah, well, to draw some distinctions, like, is there anger? You know, everybody's going to feel it. What do you do with it? How do you, how do you react? What are the best default strategies? A friend of mine in New York that I've come to become friends with recently, Conrad Gomez, he says kindness is the long term winning strategy, the game theory strategy. And as much as a natural born assertive, like, I'll come off overly assertive, which will come off as unkind if I don't watch it or angry, you know, I'll snap. Or if I'm thinking. We were backstage, Michael said, you look like you want to kill me. And I said, nah, it's my resting serial killer face. And so then also the problem with anger is, and we answered this in the book as tall Roz braced me with this. There's a, an academic paper that says that strategic umbrage, tactical use of anger is a good strategy. And Paul says, I know you don't believe in this. And I go, yeah, it's. He says, well, you got to come up with a better answer than that for a book. It's an academically rigorous strategy. You should become familiar with academic studies because every study is flawed without exception. You take a look at the study, you could take a look at the executive summary, the initial premise and how they gathered the data. And then you make up your mind whether or not you're buying into the source in the study. That's what you understand. So the academic study on anger was simulated negotiations among negotiation students taking negotiation classes in school. So why is that flawed to start with? Number one, they're playing roles that are not authentic. So they're not going to bear the residue of an angry response in the relationship going forward, which is the second part. A simulated negotiation between to people in a simulated environment is a one off. Whether they be business executives that are coming for a Harvard business class for executives or whether or not somebody in my class. That's why we stopped doing the simulated negotiations, because it's a one off. I'm not representing what I authentically feel in this negotiation. So when you get angry with me, I'm not going to take it personally and bear it. And then also what students do, which is another reason why we stopped doing it when I was teaching it. Students will sit down together one time and they're going to Talk for roughly 45 minutes to an hour. And they only feel like they fail if they don't reach a deal. So somebody starts getting mad and the other guy's going like, yeah, you know, I got to go to lunch. You know, it's been 55 minutes. They're going to agree. So that's not. You haven't had a single negotiation that ever was in one setting and lasted for 45 minutes. And you also, with the residue of that anger, you didn't have to try to implement a deal with somebody that insulted you personally. So it's the most flawed invalid study that survives academic rigor. Their sample size exceeds 100. They controlled all the variables. They checked off all the boxes for an academically risk study. And it is dead wrong. And so first of all, strategic umbrage is a bad idea. Now, TV and movies again, sports, agents yelling at people, raising their voices, all these negotiations, people yelling at each other, getting their way. Even President Trump is portrayed in that regard. But if you sit down and look at the deals that he actually makes, you know, he's yelling at Zelenskyy in the or the people around him are yelling at Zelensky in the Oval Office, but then they sit down together, one on one and talk with each other. And they cut a deal for Ukrainian minerals and deal after deal after deal that he cuts. Everybody says he's charming in person, he's easy to deal with. Even the people that don't like him say that about him. Bill Maher talks about how charming he is in person. So all the theater that goes into all the stuff that the media likes to pick up, whether it's the lame stream media, as Trump would say, or whether it's the manufactured stuff, makes this anger stuff look like an effective tool and it is not. And I cannot remember a single interaction that I've ever been in my entire life where I got angry. And I look back on it, I'm glad I did. I regret it every single time I've done it. It doesn't matter. So setting a boundary, which Jefferson described really well, is a good idea for inappropriate behavior. Anger is an intoxicant that will, as they say, if you give a speech when you're angry, it'll be the greatest speech you ever regret.

Yeah.

You know, have you ever read the book, either one of you? Nonviolent Communication? Yeah, Non violent Communication.

It's a good book.

Yeah. And I've thought about this a lot with Trump and in Bobby Kennedy. I don't know Trump. I've had one meeting with him with a room with 12 people just a few months before his first term at the Barry Goldwater estate. And Trump talked about himself most of the time, but he was quite interesting. And then briefly I met him at one of the Apprentice things years ago. But you take Bobby Kennedy, who's a very non violent communicator, and Trump, who I would put in the category of violent communicator.

Publicly, Publicly.

Publicly, yeah.

And so I'm gonna throw something else out there too. He's gotten in some really ugly rock fights publicly and said some really nasty things publicly. And I can't account for all of them, but in the ones that I've looked at deeply, he didn't Throw the first rock.

He did.

He did not.

Oh, he did not. Right. Well, he's a counter puncher. Right. So now the reason I bring him up is the role, though is commander in chief. It's a military role. And I don't know if he could have been even effective with where he's gotten any other way. And everyone has opinions and can poke holes at it. I just, I guess for my question, though, as it relates to everyone here, I would just love to hear. Start with Jefferson. We'll go to you, Chris. Like, what are just some of the mistakes that people make all the time out of either anger or just not even knowing? Better with communication, with everything in business and personally, because anyone here in the room ever had an argument with your spouse, show of hands, ever, ever? One, one or two. Right. So, you know, so what are. Just. Because you have so many different ways, if you ever follow, seriously follow Jefferson Fisher, even if you took an hour, sometime in the next week, just scheduled an hour, I'm going to watch Jefferson Fisher Instagram videos. It literally is therapeutic, it is valuable and you will learn a lot of stuff. So you, in the comments, you have so many people comment like, this changed my life, this one little thing. So you really help make people better. It's not just, you know, entertainment. It literally helps make people better. So what are some things you've learned that you can share with us today that would help, help everyone here be better communicators? Because most people here, like, let's. Tommy Mello, this dude sitting right here. How many employees you got? Thousand. Fifteen. Ten? Fifteen. He's in 20. How many states? 22 states. And he's talking to people all the time. He's, you know, he's got a big, huge podcast, all that sort of stuff. Everyone here is, you know, they, they have lots of people. They're, they're viewed as leaders and they want to be as effective as possible. I think this is one of the most giving group of people that I've ever seen. We've worked really hard over the last 18 years to curate this group to be a group of givers, not takers. So there's very successful people, but there's very genuine people here. But man, if you could download any of what you've learned, I think it would help everyone tremendously. So I'd love to just get some perspective. And same with you, Chris, because you're in the same.

Yeah, I'm going to. I want to make sure that the words I give are giving value to who I know this audience to be. And that's extremely high achievers who lead a lot of people and in charge of a lot of people. And some things that I would want you to take away from my time here with you is that, number one, what you say is who you are to the people around you at the table, to the people you meet at this conference, to the people that you lead in your organizations. It's not so much the acts, the actions that they see. It is the words you use and you choose. It is worth investing in your words. I bet you invest in a lot of things. I saw out there some coffee they have in the vendors, lots of vendors that there, by the way, the coffee was great. Lots of things you can invest in. Have you invested in how you talk, how you speak, the words that you choose? Because that is your culture. Anything that anybody will ever talk about you, ever remember about you, the legacy that you leave, how they talk about you when you're not in the room. Sinners on the words you say. Think of it. You meet somebody for the first time, they say nice things. You know what I think they're a nice person. Somebody says mean things. You know what? I don't think I really like that person. You can't be a kind person if you don't use kind words. So number one, what you say is who you are. So take an audit. Think of it right now, while I'm talking. What are the top three things you would think about or the top three words you would attribute to how you think people think about you? What kind of words do you use? Are you short? Are you aggressive? Are you defensive? Are you direct? Are you clear? Are you passive? Are you people pleasing? What kind of legacy are you leaving? That's the legacy you have for the team, and that's all the confidence they have of who you are to follow. Number two, model recovery and communication. What does that mean? That means when you make mistakes, you own it. They need to hear you own it. That's the most important. They have to hear it. Think about with your kids. There's some people in here that never heard their dad apologize to them. How did that make you feel? And you think that's any better? When you're a business leader, the simple solution of saying, you know what? I could have handled that better. You know what? I didn't say that. Very kind. You know what? Let me take that back. Let me redo that. You know, that wasn't very kind, was it? I do the same thing with my kids, the same Thing with the people that I lead, they need to see recovery. So are you modeling recovery and your communication number three, defensiveness. That is, to me, the number one thing that clams up communication. Whether it's at the boardroom to the living room. Usually it's the people who you love most that have the chance of hurting you the most. And so those are the people you get most defensive with. Somebody, the law firm says something to me, or let's say another attorney says something to me. I'm like, I don't. It doesn't matter because that person doesn't mean anything to me. My kids say something to me. Oh, it could be crushing. Why? Because who do you give access to you, to your heart and your character and your integrity. So defensiveness, how do you keep somebody from getting defensive? You find ways of using words that. And I thought Chris did an amazing job in the first response of common ground. How do you think above it? So if I want to not get somebody as defensive, I'm going to use the phrase, I agree. Now hear me out. I'm not saying you have to actually agree with what they said. Instead of micro think macro, you're going to say, I agree. That's worth talking about. I agree. That's worth a discussion. I agree. That's a point of view. All of a sudden, that defensiveness drops because they feel valued, they feel acknowledged. If somebody is really fighting. Phrase I like to use all the time is maybe so that's one of my favorites. Somebody really pushing me on something. I go, well, maybe. So they go, oh, okay. Well, at least he's considering it. I've seen more marriages in the time I've been doing this that have repeatedly told me that the number one phrase that I give that has helped them is, I could have said that better.

Say that again.

I could have said that better. And you know it always. Almost always the response I get here. I'll give you an example. I had a lady DM me once. She said, can't believe it. I was in an argument with my husband, and I just said, I could have said that better. And without a hesitation, he said, I could have said that better, too. She said, this is a man who would never have said that to me. All right, so how do you apply that not only to your personal relationships, but also to your business, to the people that you want to find common ground with? You know, we find a lot of commonality with struggle, with imperfection. Perfection is not common. It's not relatable. Struggle is stress, chaos. Overwhelm. That's absolutely relatable. Fear. Oh, no. Better common ground than fear. So that would be my guess, my recommendation for the three ways that you can have better communication in your businesses. That's great.

Thank you.

It was like Pastor Jefferson there, huh?

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Past the communion plate and to G University.

I'm literally just trying to pit you guys against each other in the nicest way. Yeah, it's just, you know.

All right, so I'm gonna. I'm gonna mention two emotional mindsets that I think make you absolutely bulletproof, and then I'm gonna focus on one for communication. And I think if. If you are grateful and curious, that psychologically, they'll get you through anything, period. All right, so curiosity. It's impossible to be angry and curious at the same time. Number one, if you're genuinely curious. And some people will say to me, like, well, I'm curious why you're so goddamn stupid like that. Well, that's. You're cheating there. Right? Okay, so. But then if you start looking around, curiosity becomes why is it a superpower? All right, so first of all, head of my coaching, Derek Gaunt, says, be curious, stay curious all the time. So you can't be curious and angry at the same time, which means you've just kept yourself out of a negative frame of mind. You're 31% smarter in a positive frame of mind, which means if you're angry, you're by definition dumber. Less mental capacity. So it keeps you smarter, sharper to be curious now and then if you start looking around for it. And I heard a long time ago, I never saw it backed up, that Elon Musk's brother said that Elon would always read two different books simultaneously, looking for the universal principles that have showed up in both. And if they were different principles, it's the same principle in different contexts. It was for life. I haven't confirmed that. However, I'm looking at curiosity. Nassim Nicholas Taleb's book Antifragile, says curiosity, things that gain from disorder, Post traumatic stress growth versus post traumatic stress disorder, is curiosity. And he named it as an attribute that makes you antifragile. If you're genuinely curious. The more traumatic the event, the smarter you get because you're curious. And then, of all places, if you're into reading, is a list everybody knows you're supposed to read of books. Man's search for meaning keeps coming up over and over and over again. I hear about it. I talk about reading. I finally decided to sit down and Read it, you begin to understand why it's on the recommended list for life. And buried deep in man's search for meaning is the observation by that guy that the people in the Nazi concentration camps, which were far more horrific than I ever imagined until I started to read that book, so the ones that survived the most psychologically were the ones that just let go of the horror and just got curious as to what the hell was going to happen next. And if so, being curious can get you through a Nazi concentration camp. Imagine what it can do for you psychologically. Now, I could sit down with anybody in this room and I do this regularly to prove the point. Curiosity is irresistible. I can sit down with you and if I'm just completely curious in my approach and yeah. Really? Yeah. And well, what about this and what about that? It sounds like this. I'll get stuff out of you you haven't told anybody else. And this is going to sound weird. The downside of it is you're going to feel deeply connected to me. When I was having a delightful conversation and I was in an interaction just a couple weeks ago and one of the gentlemen walked up to me and says, man, the stuff I told you about my mother last night, I just want to know how much that meant to me. I haven't told anybody that. I was just curious, genuinely, genuinely curious. And he felt so connected to me. And so like people will feel connected to you when you, when you're not there to tell him your story, but you're just so curious as to where they're coming from. You'll make connections that are extraordinary regularly. And then one of the last examples of the power of curiosity I mentioned briefly yesterday, Mike Periente, the guy who flew me private from Vegas to, to LA when his business was going broke before he found our stuff. Defense attorney. So he's sitting down against a prosecutor that's trying to barbecue his client and he just gets deeply curious as to what was motivating the prosecutor didn't argue any, any merits of the crime, any aspects of the case. Just, just was curious as to why the prosecutor was motivated, not in a counter arguing way. And a prosecutor ended up giving him a great deal on behalf of his client. Couldn't resist his genuine curiosity, which is a lack of opposition, which people are used to fighting back and opposing what you have to say and argue and attorneys are trying to argue and you take that away from and just get completely curious with the other side and suddenly they're opening up to you, they're collaborating with you. In ways that they. That they never imagined, that they never planned. So operationally, one of the things that'll make you antifragile, and you'll have great conversations, and you'll have great negotiations and great interactions, and you connect with people around you in ways that you didn't imagine. Just curiosity. Just be genuinely curious and see where it gets you.

I mean, I think if there's anything, it's my often blind curiosity of things that have opened up so many doors. I mean, that is really. Yeah, so that's. That's.

Well, he's a connector. And you. You guys know that. That would be a great descriptor of Joe. Now you guys know that. That he's just a really curious, genuine guy. And look, and he is the connector.

I mean, even having you guys here and what we try to bring here is I was like, oh, I think this will be useful. I'm very curious about it. And I'm always. I'm always interested in, you know, what are the little hinges that swing big doors. And communication is one of them. Now, you had talked about struggle. And when someone is overwhelmed, and the people in this room, they take a lot of risks. They put themselves out there quite a bit. There's a lot of intense things that happen. The world can be very chaotic, or our own worlds could be quite chaotic, depending on to what degree we play the game. And what I love in your book is you talk about how to de. Escalate. You talk about ignition, where someone gets really wound up and then how to basically bring it down. So I'd like for you to speak to that. So someone. Because one thing is the words, but it's the state you're in. And if someone's really stressed out or they're being attacked or they're fatigued, I mean, you talked about being antifragile. Well, you know, how well does one perform if they haven't slept the night before, or if they're going through some illness or someone recently died or they had a major betrayal, or there's some change in the economy or AI is killing their business and their conversions? There's a million things that the people in this room deal with that could totally throw them off. And then to be in an effective communication and not knowing how to be in control of yourself when the external is out of control, you really teach people how to first control the internal. And I mean, you had the same thing in the FBI, right? So I'd love to speak about that. How do we keep ourselves in a great state so we're in the best ability to communicate. And then if we're over the top, how do we extract ourselves from that so we don't say something or do something that either regrets we regret or could destroy a relationship. It's a big question there, but it's really about the nervous system.

I guess that's a great question. First would be self awareness. There's a lot of people who are co dependent on the control of others, meaning they like to control everybody else, but they know nothing of what it means to control themselves. And they're good with making sure this works and that works, but they don't know how they work. And so they'll get mad at other people pushing their button, but have no clue why there's a button. So every one of us like that picture he showed of the two caged people with the kids inside. We all have the. I mean, what that's representing is inner child trauma, the inner child within ourselves. You know, I have two kids that are here. One has just turned six. The other seven, they were just at that playground. Not too long ago, my daughter went up to somebody and said, you want to play another little girl? And she said, yeah, and said, okay, let's be friends. There they went, right. We're still that way. We just grew out of it. We lost that. We want that same level of connection, that same level of trust, that childlike faith in everybody and humanity and ourselves. And we're all reaching for that. And what happens over time is that we play old scripts. There are things. Let me. Here we go. I bet. Show of hands. How many people can remember something when you were around the age of eight or less, if somebody said something to you that for good, made a big difference in your life, that you still remember to this day. All right, now, show of hands. How many people around that same age remember somebody saying something negative to you around that same age? Now isn't that something? Now you question the power of words. I don't remember what I had for breakfast yesterday, but I can remember what Billy the bully told me when I was 8 years old on the playground. And you know what happened? Insecurity. Now I have that for the rest of my life, whether it's about my looks, my intelligence, anything about me. And it is an old script. It's like an old cassette that you just click, click, play anytime life gets hard. And it could have been something by your parents, your grandparents, school, it doesn't matter. What that matters is that it's here and now and when life gets hard, you like to play it. What does that script sound like? It sounds like I have to be perfect. Everybody around me has to be perfect. I have to control everything. I cannot make mistakes. I do not want to be abandoned. These deeply rooted fears. They say if it's hysterical, it's historical. So number one, have the self awareness of what's happening within yourself. Number two, time. How do you calm yourself? What I talk about in the book, that's rule number one is say it with control. Is in any argument, there's ignition and then there's cooling. You know exactly what that sounds like ignition means. You can't say that to me. Are you kidding me right now? And it elevates, elevates and elevates. And then what happens? Somebody says something that's too far, they cross the line and then all of a sudden cools down. There's a period where things quiet down. And what happens? It's a change of voice. Cooling period. Sounds like I shouldn't have said that. What I meant to say was whether that happens ever, or if it happens within five minutes or five years, there's always a cooling period. So how do you get to where you remove the ignition? Is time. Time is a great sifter of things. Have you ever written an email before? Real mad, Maybe a text. And then something happens and you don't. The next day you look at it, you go, I don't really need to send that. Not worth my time. All right, think of what matters now, rarely matters later. There are arguments you had that MEANT the world 10 years ago, you couldn't remember anything about what they were or relationships. You go, God, that was so dumb of me. I don't know why I made that such a big deal. Time. How do you do that in real time? Is number three your breath. Do you just remind yourself that you're breathing right now is my guess. You just remember, oh yeah, I'm breathing. At the same time I'm here at this conference listening and worrying about my business and everything else I have going on. Your breath. Most of the time what happens in the given day is that you hold your breath. Stress, you're typing, you're texting, you're driving, and all of a sudden you go realize, oh, I'm not breathing. Not breathing puts your body in a low grade state of anxiety. It's telling yourself that I'm suffocating. That's why you feel stressed. Maybe you have panic attacks, maybe you have things that all of a sudden. You ever had somebody Go. Why are you yelling? And you go, I'm not yelling. It's because your breath has nowhere else to go except out. All right, so how do you do that in conversation? What I teach is a conversational breath. And if it's cool, Joe, we can do it now.

I would love to.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

And I'll tell. No, this is. It's really good too. There's a lot of breath work. We have Jason Campbell, who does breath work here. This is a place of using your breath to enter conversation. So, yeah, I would love it. This is so good.

This is what I teach every single one of my clients, legal clients, taught them ever before I got in the car, made a video. It's based on a physiological sigh for conversational breath. And what I tell them is make the first word your breath, meaning before you say anything, put this breath as the first word, the first thing that you say. So it's all gonna be through your nose, and it's gonna be a double inhalation. Ready? So it's gonna be about 3 seconds, 2 seconds, and then out through your nose. Ready?

So.

Hold one more at the top, then let it go through your nose. Now just right there. Keep doing that while you're talking to me. We did that kind of exaggerated. Keep going. Keep doing it. You're gonna find that you can do it whenever you're listening to anybody, and all of a sudden, you're gonna realize, hey, I'm listening to him with a little bit more clarity now. I'm starting to observe the conversation. I'm not in the conversation. I am thinking about what's going on. I'm not reacting to what's going on. I use this. Anytime that somebody is creating the spark of conflict, where there's friction. What does that friction create? Combustion. Ignition. And so what I teach my clients is when you get a question from that mean, rude opposing attorney is, instead of responding immediately, put a breath in its place. It's as easy as, hey, Jefferson, how are you? And I go, good. I'm good. Everything's good. I'm good. You know what? I'm so good versus somebody saying, how are you? And I go, I'm good. I'm good. And what's the difference? Same words. One says, I thought about it. I'm intentional about it. And when you choose your words, people listen.

That's great. And, well, it's the difference between responding and reacting. And this is Navy SEAL stuff, because you talked about that, and you have a line in your book where you show the example of one of your clients, that you prepared her for trial and you went to role play and you became like the aggressive attorney that she was about. And then when she did approach the person who was trying to throw her off, one of the things you say in the book is that she couldn't control the questions, but she learned how to control herself.

That's right.

And when you're able to. And I was like, that's just a big deal. Hazard Lee, this guy over here, he's a fighter pilot. He flies F35s. He's awesome. Very cool. And we've actually had that conversation, too. He's talked about you have to control your state when you're in these things. And of course, I'd love to hear your take on this because you're the former top international FBI hostage negotiator. You have dealt with people whose nervous systems are threatening to kill people. So what have you learned about controlling your state?

Well, there's kind of three parts to the answer. And a lot of what I liked about what Jefferson talked about also was in a moment, what happens if you feel yourself losing a state in a moment. And so there's mechanisms that you can practice. And a breathing mechanism is a great mechanism that's in the moment. Because everybody's going to lose it in the moment. I lose it in the moment. But then there's. Then what's the other answer? You know, when you're up there, you're asking alligators. You don't think about how you should have drained the swamp in the first place. So when you're up to your ass and alligators. This is an alligator response I happen to use when I'm angry. I use the late night FM DJ voice to calm me down as much as it calms the other person down on, like, I'll use it because I need to calm myself down. So that's another mechanism, what Jefferson talked about in the first place. Now, how do you keep from getting in the swamp in the first place? You guys rehearse getting angry, and that's how you get in the swamp. That's how you get up to your posterior. And alligators, because you go back, I do it. It's human nature. You go back and review a conversation where somebody made you mad and you think about the perfect cutting remark. And what that is, is the rehearsal. This is what I should have said. Damn, I would have enjoyed saying this. That's a rehearsal to do it wrong. So you keep yourself from getting up to your ass in alligators by Rewriting the mental script so that you rehearse yourself doing it right, you imagine yourself doing it right. Maybe you imagine doing the breathing. What increases the chances that you're going to do the breathing. When somebody triggers you, you go back and you imagine yourself doing it in breathing. Now, point of fact, professional athletes have known this forever and the brain science backs it up. The mental rehearsals is as close to actually doing it in person, which is why Magic Johnson, Michael Jordan, Wayne Gretzky, all the great athletes imagined doing it right, which increased the chances that they would do it right. In the moment when crowd is screaming and people are hanging all over. So go back over those arguments that you had. We could just imagine that cutting remark and instead imagine hearing yourself say, I could have said that better. Or imagine hearing yourself doing the breath response. And every time you go back on a conversation that went bad and imagine doing it in a way that would increase its likelihood of a successful outcome. With the late night FM DJ voice, with the breathing, with the I could have said that better. Give me some more time to think about it, Any of those things. Then when you are up to your ass in alligators, then you don't get rattled. How did I not get rattled on the phone with somebody from Al Qaeda practice? We rehearsed all the time. And I practiced, in point of fact, using the late night FM DJ voice on somebody who's screaming and threatening to murder somebody. And so then in the moment, since I'd done it in practice and I imagined myself doing it, it's far easier to execute in the moment. So have the techniques. The breathing technique is a phenomenal technique. Go back into a situation that went bad where you lost it, and instead of thinking of the perfect cutting remark, think of yourself doing that physiological sigh. Isn't that what that's called? The two inhales and an exhale, and then you will in fact do it when the situation arises. You get smacked in the face.

Yeah, love it. Yesterday I opened up and I talked about focus, organization, communication and connection, which spells falk. So you can.

And why is it that you like that to say that so much?

It's a different way of spelling the F word. And by the way, how do we get you to use profanity like he does? You just don't seem to go there. Which I think makes you a better person. Or what do you think?

He's a very special. Profanity is my love language. I use profanity.

Chris, I love this voice. I love you all so much.

So go yourself yeah, he.

Yeah, Chris has this. That just makes you want to give him whatever he's asking.

Yeah, yeah.

You know, you could just be like, ah, you know, it's a great couch you got. I love your couch. I'm like, chris, this is my couch. He's like, yeah, but I really. I really want your couch. You're like, dang, I think I gotta give him my couch. That's just whatever he needs. And I will tell you what I've learned that I love from all of Chris's content, and I've been a huge Chris fan for a long time, is that when it comes to crisis in your business, when you have to respond to crisis, you run or. Excuse me, you walk. You don't run. And so I've applied that to my. When there's crisis and let's say my law firm or any cases, you walk, you don't run. And that also means in my voice, if I'm not sounding like it's hysterical, then nobody else is going to get hysterical. So they listen for that same level of that radio DJ voice. That slows it down because it slows them down. And nobody's better than that guy.

Well, I have a couple of shirts for you guys. I'm going to let you decide which one should go to who. And me and Cherie were in Italy and Amsterdam. And so this one. These are brand new. I just washed them, though, so they're clean. This one says, to save time, let's just assume I know everything. Okay. And I don't know which one that should go to. This next one is just basically says something somewhere went terribly wrong. You can kind of zoom in on that.

Yeah.

Yeah, it's kind of modern. Yeah, I think that's pretty good. And then this one, this is going to you, Chris. Flawed human being.

Yeah, that's mine.

Yeah, that's. I know you'll enjoy that one.

Yeah.

So is there one you prefer?

No, but I will take the. That one's fine, though.

This one. Would you grab this one?

This the. I assume one? That would be fine.

Fine.

Okay, good, because I'd love to see you wear that. That would be just great. Kind of goes against. And if. Would you like this one?

Probably. No, I definitely give it to Nate on my team.

It's hard for them to refuse a gift in front of, you know, nearly 400 people. What do you think about my narcissistic. What's in it for them? Socks?

They look easy to slip on.

Yeah, they are. That's a good answer. You You. You did read my book, though, when we first.

I did, yeah.

So here's the thing. And this is. So I've been carrying around you like his shiny head.

Yeah.

You know, by the way, I didn't make these socks. My team actually made them for me. And I, you know, but I am insecure and self conscious, and so I've. It's a little bit of shameless self promotion. So I have this blue box I've been carrying around, and I want to. I use this as an example often with people, of the power of words. Because really, what you guys are teaching up here is a lot, but one of it is selling. How to be more effective at selling in the way you sell as you connect with people and you communicate. But you have an interesting take on connection because not all connection is positive.

Right.

And not all communication is positive. Right. And this is a connection network. Now, connection, though, in the positive sense of we want people to be really aligned and we want people to be collaborative, but there are connections that are not that way. So I want to ask you about that in a moment, but here's. Some people here have seen this. So here's a couple of cans of Campbell's soup, all right? This is chicken noodle. This one's tomato. They have soup in them. At the time I bought these, they were $1.99. Okay. And you can. If you're hungry, you can eat these. Buck 99 each. Now this, this can, though, of tomato soup, which doesn't even have any tomato soup in it because there's hole punch in it, cost $4,500. Why do you think that is?

Can you tell whoever signed it?

Yeah, so it's signed by Andy Warhol.

Oh, wow.

And so I was with Michael Fishman. We went to an art auction. And now the point is much older. There's no value. And so if you're starving somewhere and you're, you know, you need this $99 can of soup will be more valuable than this empty one. But it's. It's. It's a signature. It's the words, right? And so I'm wearing this Swatch watch, that. Where did I buy this at, Cherie? Where were we?

Malaysia.

Malaysia, okay. Cost me about. Because of the exchange rate, it was, you know, probably about 125 bucks. So I like it. It's light, it's easy to put on. This is a Richard Mille, okay? Pain in the ass. It's like carrying a barbell, but it's got a skull on it. It's pretty cool, you know, heavy. But I like the Swatch watch more. Right.

But.

But why would the price. When someone buys an Apple watch or going back, you buy a Timex versus someone buys a Rolex or whatever. It's funny, I was reading these things of watches, like starter watches, losers, people that are starting to be successful, they would rate the value of a watch. And I think it's this comedy, the way things are packaged. But the point is, everything we do in business is packaging. But, you know, Dan Sullivan calls it unique packaging. How you get paid for something, how you present yourself. It's okay with that. Ken, the other one, I'd be worried, but. I thought it was funny while I was doing it, but. Well, you're giving me actually a really good idea right now, which we're going to end with. I'll get to it in a moment. So when you're packaging up yourself as a communicator, to garner respect and to actually have people take your words seriously and to not have people intimidate you, how does one do that? Because what both of you are really great at is helping people not show up in an awkward space and not being taken seriously. So you're not wanting to come across as a jerk, but you're wanting to have respect and you want to increase the value of how people take your communication and to really connect to people. So what advice and suggestions would you have? Because there are people in the room here different, you know, some are introverts, some are extroverts. And to increase the value of how people respond to us and what our intentions are, how would you recommend that? Because a lot of people, they have the best of intentions, but people don't take them seriously. They're not packaging what they're saying and how they're saying it in a way that is being responded to in the most valuable way.

People watch everything that you do more so than your words. They're watching for your reactions, your gut reactions. And a lot of that ties to your emotional intelligence, your emotional maturity. I bet there's people in your life that you know are not emotionally mature. There are people that make a fight about everything. These are the people that typically are insecure. They have to name drop. They have to make sure you know the thing, all the names that they know how much their business makes. They like to mention the money. They like to mention it. Every single sentence of how much the valuation is or whatever. It's just the front, all right? Because there's a deeply rooted fear of probably that they're not enough. All right, maybe I need to change topics. What I'm saying is. What I'm saying is, if you want to be more respected in communication, find your pocket. What does that mean? I've always been taught, stay in the pocket. Don't be too aggressive and too forward. Same time, don't be too passive. You stay in the pocket like a band. Everybody's in sync, everybody's in rhythm. Nobody's rushing. It's the drummer, it's the beat. Nobody's slowing down. Nobody's rushing too fast. You feel like you're in the pocket. 2 is using less words. People respect those that are direct. Usually that means saying less things. If you have a very long email, compare that with the person who uses email as kind of a text message. I have a. When I was a young associate, I wrote an email to somebody. It was a CEO, and I was so nervous about it, and I wrote probably every legal thing he could probably ever come across. And I thought this email was so great. And I emailed it to him. It was so long, it was probably six paragraphs. And in a heartbeat, you know what he responded? Thanks. He didn't even capitalize a T like he said thanks. All right, Usually even in emails, you can see who's somebody who is more insecure versus more confident. Can you be direct as you can be. So use very direct language. Number three, this is one that's just easy because we could go a lot into this topic is adverbs. You want to be more respected. Cut the adverbs. As a refresher, adverbs are the words that end in ly. Literally, essentially, basically, just so very much. Any of those words, they weaken your sentences. So instead of watering your words down with a bunch of ice cubes, serve your words neat. When you do that, what happens is that they go, this is somebody I can listen to. This is somebody who knows the power of their words, and this is somebody that I can follow. So when you do that and serve your words neat, you will always be more respected in the conversation.

That is great. Thank you. Thank you. How about you?

You know, I don't know how much I have to add to that or even just to reiterate some of what I've already said. Yeah. Be concise. Comprehend what they're saying. You know, difference between hearing and listening. Listening is comprehension. Show you comprehend. People can't get enough of you. If you're actually interested in them, if you genuinely curious, they're going to want to talk to you. And When I was talking about that earlier, I remember. I remember talking to Tommy Mello about how he's trained his sales team. I don't know if Tommy's still sitting down there or not, but he sends his salespeople into areas where nobody else can make sales because he's taught them to find out about the other side. Be genuinely curious about them. Not to sell the product. You know, that comes secondary. So you're the product, so to speak. Let that be secondary. When you're genuinely curious about the other person, you really want to hear what they have to say. Then they're going to want to find out about you on down the line. Cliche stuff. If you're respectful, first, they're going to respect you. Don't wait for them to be respectful of you if you're curious. If concise communication, you know, long explanations just make people's eyes glaze over. Use of cliches. I love. I love the. The advice about. Cut down on the adverbs. Just the. The standard. Standard. Stand up straight. You know, everything say, keep your mouth shut. The first internship I ever had, I was overwhelmed. I was with the Iowa Department of Public Safety. So I stood up straight and I kept my mouth shut, and a week later said, this guy's really poised. And I was like, okay, I'm gonna do that again. So the less you speak and if you stand, if your posture is good, the other person feels respected. And here's another hack for getting people to talk. That physical movement is a universal sign of divine genuine curiosity. And so you don't even have to say, if somebody's talking and you turn your head to the side, they feel your interest and their esteem is raised more, which then raises their esteem towards you. So it's. It's really the little things.

Okay, so communication, connection. Positive, negative. Yeah, if you could speak to that.

Oh, I teach. You want in conversation. Connection. People think that often. Connection has to be this kind of hallmark thing. It means everybody's nice, everybody's happy. No, connection is both positive and negative. You have to have both. For these lights to come on, there has to be a positive and a negative. I can disagree with you and still be kind. I can be disappointed with you. If it's my kids, I can discipline you and still love you. There is this underlying tone with connection that people find that it has to be all glitter and rainbows, and that's just not the truth. If you also want to be more respected. And in communication, how often you take things personally is a direct reflection of how much grace you give other people. We just pick up things all the time. We hate ideas because they're not our ideas. We find ways to get defensive over things because they didn't say it how I would have said it. So I want to say it differently in my head. If there was one quick piece of advice I could give, instead of saying to someone, I disagree, tweak it. Say, I see things differently. When you talk in terms of perspective, you find more connection. If it's perspective, then it's just a signal of I'm seeing something different. And you know what happens? Exactly what Chris said. People get curious. Oh, what do you see? So instead of, you know what? I disagree, I disagree. Instead of being in the conversation, observe the conversation, say, you know, I see things differently. And you know what? They're gonna go, oh, in their mind, oh, how do you see it? Maybe it's, you know what? I take another approach. I have a different perspective here. You know, I get there a different way. Naturally, the curiosity comes into play. Then they want to start hearing what you see. And now you're not talking about points, you're talking about points of view. That is what brings in more of full circle into the common ground. If you want to find something that is common, you find words of perspective. People don't get defensive. When you talk about words of perspective, what does that do? That ties into more connection and that helps with difficult conversations. That helps with saying the things that are hard to say. Perspective helps a lot.

That's great. So I'll end with this. I was originally going to ask you guys, what's something that both of you totally disagree on, but we won't go there. We'll do that, but another time.

I take a while to find, I'm going to tell you something. I know him well enough. It take a while to find that. I'm not sure there's a lot we totally disagree on.

Yeah. So this will be the last thing. If you could give every entrepreneur in this room one elegant idea and one sentence to remember that we didn't touch on before they walk into their next communication or conversation with you, Jefferson, do that. And with Chris, if they were to walk into their next negotiation, what would it be? So whoever wants to go first?

Amiga, you like going?

Well, yeah. I mean, please go, because we've touched on a lot. I'm trying to think. Yeah.

What comes to mind if there was some, like, takeaway from this talk is that when it comes to your next conversation, have something to learn, not something to prove, have something to learn, not something to prove. Something to prove says no, you have to agree with what I said. No, no, no, no. Do you understand who you're talking to? Maybe I need to remind you who I am. That's having something to prove. Something to learn is a mindset that goes, I wonder why they're saying that. I wonder why they're reacting so strongly. I wonder what's happening here. Maybe they're having a bad day. Maybe they're having a conversation in their head that I'm not invited to. Have something to learn, have something to prove. That'd be my takeaway.

Thank you.

And I think what dovetails well with that is there's a better outcome than what you've imagined. Like, no matter what you think the best possible outcome is, you've reached that conclusion based on inadequate information, imperfect information. You're holding stuff back, which means they're holding stuff back, which means you don't know everything. So if you have something to learn, then that will guide you to a better outcome than you could have imagined in the first place. So that hard thing is just accept something better is there, and if you have something to learn, you'll find it good.

Thank you. And so here's what I'm thinking. I think having a book club for Genius youth with both of your books would be awesome. So I want to do that. Secondly, I want to get this interview and I want to put it on the tablets. Because through Andre Norman, we putting content on tablets for currently 650,000 people that are incarcerated through imprisons throughout the US and it just helps them be in so many ways. So when they do get out, if they get out, they'll be more effective. Third, anything that you guys could need or want that you're looking for right now that you would like to speak out into the audience, because there might be some capabilities in the room that could be helpful. And if there's any call to action or anything, and it could simply be. What do you say at the end of every one of your videos?

I just say, try that and follow me.

Try that and follow me. Right. Simple words, but very powerful. Try that and follow me. Right. So if it just means follow Jefferson Fisher, because I know when you read his book and how long have you been in Genius Network now?

At least 10 years, probably.

Right?

I mean, since we crossed paths in Chicago. It's been a while.

Yeah, it's been a while. And so, I mean, I've been talking so highly about Chris's book for you know, since it came out. So it's amazing. So those of you in Genius Network, when we do the next Golden Swan event, you're welcome to come. So we'll continue with that. But is there anything that either one of you are looking for, a need that we may be able to help you with that you'd like to speak to?

Like what? Whatever asset that my company has that works for you to help you become a better negotiator. Because it's going to. It's going to enhance what you're doing, and it's more fun and you're having. We're having great conversations. So if you like Instagram, look at the stuff on Instagram. What we're building in a Black Swan community is people practicing on a regular basis, because then they're getting into practice conversations with people that are in their profession, so it's easier for them to turn up. And I'll mention Michael Pariente again. Michael is very, very successful, and he's afraid of having his negotiation skills perish because he knows how much it's going to cost him on a regular basis. But more than anything else, he's having a ball practicing with the other people that are practicing in our negotiation community. So it's free access, and if it's useful for you, use it. And if you get in there and it's not, don't do it. But this is a lot of fun. However you pursue the communication, you. You use it with your significant others, you use it with your family members. It's just. And it's great. And then to connect with people, and it doesn't get in the way of the other stuff you're doing. So whatever asset we have that could help you jump in, have fun with it.

Awesome.

No, I. I'm relatively new to this game. My book came out in March, and it's been on the New York Times list probably for eight months now. And if you haven't seen my stuff, go check it out if you like. And what I would ask, because I really get a lot of value out of just helping people truly argue less and talk more. That to me, better conversation is a better world. And I feel like so many of our relationships could be healed just by having a different conversation. So my challenge is that probably in your life, there's a conversation you need to have. You don't have to say it out loud. There's a conversation you need to have. Maybe somebody in your family, maybe somebody in your business. It's a conversation you are actively avoiding. That one. And my challenge to you is to choose to do something different. Like Chris said, instead of coming up with this is how I want to do it. Ask yourself the question what would it look like if I didn't? What would it look like if I chose to say the kind thing? Because if you get the chance, choose the kind thing. You'll never regret it. Ask the question what would it look like if I chose to do something different? That would be my ask.

Awesome. Love it, everyone. Jefferson Fisher and Chris Fox, thank you both. Don't miss another episode of the Joe Paulist show. Subscribe today@thejopolishow.com if you'd like access to the show notes to take action on what was discussed, please visit thejopolishow.com don't miss another episode of the Joe Paulish show. Subscribe today@thejopolishow.com if you'd like access to the show notes to take action on what was discussed, please visit thejopolishow.com 45.