No Grain, No Pain with Dr. Peter Osborne - I Love Marketing Episode #238

I'm dean jackson, he's joe polish, and this is the I love marketing podcast.

Everybody, it's Dean Jackson and Joe Polish.

And we want to welcome you to I Love Marketing. And since it is the beginning of a new year, this is the perfect time to do one of our episodes, which we're really not going to talk that much about marketing, but I always love doing it.

Yes, we will.

Well, you think? Okay, we'll see.

We'll turn it into marketing.

This episode is really going to be done for you, Dean. I want to actually change your eating habits. Okay, just so we're clear up front, but we have a special guest. His name is Dr. Peter Osborne. And Dr. Peter Osborne, can you hear us?

Okay, I'm hearing you loud and clear.

Awesome. Well, we met in person for the first time at Strategic Coach, which is awesome. And you are also dear friends with our dear friend JJ Virgin, who wrote the foreword to your new book, no Grain, no Pain, which is coming out. And I'm going to read a real quick bio of you and then we're going to just kind of talk about something that will help everyone not only set off the new year right in terms of how they eat and their nutrition, but probably it may impact the rest of their entire life. So let me do a quick reading of your bio for people that don't know who you are. Dr. Peter Osborne is the Clinical Director of Origins Healthcare in Sugarland, Texas. He's a doctor of Chiropractic, Doctor of functional medicine, doctor of Pastoral science, and a board certified clinical nutritionist. Often referred to as the gluten free Warrior, he is one of the most sought after functional medicine doctors in the world. His practice is centered on helping those with painful, chronic, degenerative and autoimmune diseases with a primary focus on gluten sensitivity and food allergies. Dr. Osborne received his doctorate from the Texas Chiropractic College. He is one of the world's leading authorities on gluten sensitivity and lectures nationally to both the public as well as doctors on this and many other nutritionally related topics. He is the founder of Gluten Free Society and the author of the Gluten Free Health Solution and Glutenology, a series of digital videos and ebooks designed to help educate the world about gluten. In addition, he is the author of no Grain, no Pain, published by Touchstone, Simon and Schuster. Dr. Osborne has served as the Executive Director and the Vice President for the American Clinical Board of Nutrition. He is on the Advisory board for Functional Medicine University. He's been featured On Fox News, CBS, Celiac.com, the Gluten Summit, and the People's Pharmacy Radio. So, boy, out of all that, what have I not said? I mean, how would you describe to people that don't know who you are? How would you describe what you do and why you're in to doing all of this?

I would say that people who don't really know me, that kind of in a nutshell, what I do is I help people get better when medicine has completely and utterly failed them and they're frustrated with a system that is completely and utterly broken. And it's more than just gluten deep.

Right. Right. You know, I've been reading your book. I'm not all the way through it because it has not come out yet at the time that we're actually doing this episode. It's coming out in literally a couple of weeks. But you got me advance copy and I am really, really impressed with it. I want to say this in the very beginning because I've interviewed a lot of different people on all kinds of different ways of eating, from raw foods to the pros of eating starchy carbs to those that are not and everything in between. I've been working, I think I've consulted with more nutrition experts, doctors of various people as it relates to exercise and diet and supplementation than prob probably any person in the marketing world that I know. And so I've come across a lot of stuff. And I think some of the initial things is people will think, okay, here's another person who's going to tell us not to eat wheat and whatnot. But as we'll get into this conversation, people realize probably many things they never even thought about. But what would you say to people that initially have a stereotype, oh, I'm not going to quit eating grains.

And.

What would you say right off the bat to grasp their attention and get them to stop long enough to hear you out? Because really, that's what we're going to do. We're going to.

I got an idea.

How about this?

No grain, no pain.

Well, you're right, Dean. We did turn it into marketing because.

That is a good headline.

I just want to say that I have to applaud because that is one of the best book titles ever. You know, I mean, we've had a few people on that have had really great book titles. Our friend Yuri. Who's your friend? The All Day Energy Diet. You know, there's just such a big promise for the book. So let's Unpack the Promise. I mean, you've got attention right there. You've got attention with a title like that. But I'm anxious to hear the story of how we came to that conclusion.

Well, it's a long story, but I think ultimately I started my training after school at the VA hospital in the rheumatology department. And so that's all we treated every day, in and out, was autoimmune disease. And these people were severely, chronically ill with things like rheumatoid arthritis and lupus and scleroderma and dermatomyositis, these, you know, really debilitating autoimmune diseases. These were veterans, and I'm a veteran. So I had a passion for helping people who I appreciated serving our country. And I felt like they were really being not mistreated on purpose, but just mistreated in the way that they were being treated. These people would come in and basically the standard of care was, you've got autoimmune pain in all of your joints. You're completely inflamed. We're going to hijack your immune system and suppress it to the point where we create cancer in 20 years so that you can have a quality of life with less pain. And to me, that's like, which would you rather have? Would you rather have pain or would you rather have terminal cancer? It's not a good decision on either end of that spectrum. And it never made sense to me to say, hey, let's treat your disease by masking why you're sick in the first place. Like, the whole premise of being a doctor was really, let's try to figure out why the pain is there in the first place, as opposed to masking that message that your body is trying to send you that says, alert, make a change, please. And so, as I was in the hospital, again, most of these diseases, pretty much all autoimmune diseases, forms of autoimmune pain. By the way, autoimmune disease is the number one medical problem in the United States. And a lot of people think it's cancer and heart disease, but many forms of cancer are autoimmune disease. Many forms of heart disease are autoimmune disease. If you take all the different forms of autoimmunity, the way we take all the different forms of cancer and compile them into one kind of category, then we know that autoimmune disease kills more people than anything else. And so the statistically speaking, all of your listeners are very, very extremely likely to develop either autoimmune disease, a form of heart disease or a form of cancer in their lifetime. So I would say, you know, if you're maybe you feel like you're in pretty good health now and you're eating whatever you want to eat, this message you should listen to, because what you do consistently over time is what yields the outcome of disease. It's just like in business, just like in marketing, if you do smart things consistently over time, then the outcome is growth. The outcome is a 10x growth, as opposed to mediocrity. And so think of your diet much in the same way. When you put in the wrong things, the outcome is going to be mediocrity and disease. When you put in the right things, the outcome is going to be a profound change and life, potentially life changing and impactful way that you feel and the way that you are. But back to the VA hospital, I was so frustrated in that environment that I went to in Houston. There's a library called the Jesse Jones Medical Library. And I spent countless hours in this library researching autoimmune disease. And initially I came back with kind of this one overwhelming theme, and that was that the only known cause for autoimmune disease was actually in this example of a disease called celiac disease. Now, celiac disease is an autoimmune disease of the small intestines. And of all the 140 plus different forms of autoimmune disease, we knew what caused celiac disease, and that was gluten. So it looked to me like that was a pretty smart place, at least to begin the process of investigating whether or not there was any relationship between these other autoimmune diseases and gluten. But I also found one other very prevalent thing in the medical literature, and that was that when you took these people with autoimmune pain and you fasted them, meaning you said you can't eat, and you took away food for 48 hours or longer, then their pain dramatically improved. And so that just tells you, I mean, if you're thinking anyway, it tells you that, you know, you took away food, you took away their pain. The only known cause of autoimmune disease is in food. So therefore, if we just kind of scientifically kind of walk our way through that, you say, okay, food has to be at least the logical place to begin this investigation. And so I begin with gluten. Unfortunately, in the VA hospital, the idea was completely ridiculed. I was to a large extent told to shut up and not continue to pursue that or I would be reprimanded. And so I left the hospital. And, you know, it was an easy decision for me because my boss at the time there was the most miserable man I'd ever met. I mean, you want to talk about a miserable doctor? This guy would yell and cuss at his patients. That's how miserable he was. And you boil it down. He was miserable because nobody ever got better. He was miserable because every day he'd come to work for 40 years, and no one ever got better. No one ever did better. How miserable would that be in life if none of your customers ever, ever, ever got a favorable outcome using your product? Right. How miserable would you be? So for me, it was a really. I just saw my future and that doctor, and I said, I've got to get out of this environment. Anyway, so I opened a practice, and one of my very first patients was a terminal, terminal child. Six months to live, permanent stent embedded in her arm, basically. The doctors basically sent her home to die. And when the mom brought her in to see me, her favorite food was pizza. Now, imagine that. Here's a child with gluten sensitivity whose favorite food is pizz. She's got six months to live, and her mom doesn't want to take away her favorite food. That's where the mom was. I mean, you could totally, you know, if you kind of put yourself in that mom's shoes, it's like, who am I? I'm just this doctor saying, change the diet. But you've got this child with terminal illness, and, you know, fortunately, and I say fortunately, the mom had rheumatoid arthritis, which is an autoimmune disease of adults. And. And it affects the joints. And her life was actually pretty miserable, too. So I convinced her to get gluten out of the diet, and she did. And she made such a great recovery in such a short period of time that she was able to justify changing her child's diet as well. So today, that child is stent out of the arm, completely alive, getting ready to graduate high school, plays volleyball, no drugs, right? So going from a sorry, go home and die to, oh, we just changed your diet, and you don't have to go home and die. To me, that was one of the most prolific and powerful things that ever happened. And that's really what led me down, I would say, the beginning path to where I am today.

How many years ago was that, Peter?

That was about 15 years ago.

Okay, so you've been doing this a long time. You've been studying this way before. It's become Even a mainstream sort of thing, which gluten Free now has.

But what.

What I've learned, and again, I would consider myself being a person with my genius network. I've got jj. I've got so many really smart people that are part of my group. I hear about a lot of things, I learn about a lot of stuff. And I'm a pretty clean eater. I mean, I exercise on a regular basis, but I've learned quite a few stuff in the last few days. Just preparing for this episode, I want to read something that's on page 27 of your book and the chapters does it Hurt? And it says, doctors aren't trained in nutrition. Why are most doctors so unwilling to accept that nutrition plays a role in good health and the restoration of health? Most of them simply have little or no training in nutrition. A 2010 study found that polled medical schools about their nutritional curriculum found only 25% of schools require a dedicated nutrition class. Medical students receive less than 20 hours of nutrition instruction during their whole education. I underlined that and wrote, wow. I mean, like a medical student, 20 hours.

That's it.

And then only 27% of medical schools meet the minimum 25 hours in nutrition required by the National Academy of Science. The average number is only 7 hours. This lack of respect for the science of nutrition has created a national health disaster. The reality is that the average person knows more about nutrition than the doctors from whom they are seeking nutritional advice. In contrast, and. And this is where you're talking about you, I have more than 500 hours of formal nutritional training and closer to 10,000 hours if you include my postgraduate internship and private study. I'm not saying this to boast, but simply to make it clear that nutrition is a fundamental science of its own and most medical schools offer no meaningful nutritional training. And, you know, I mean, there's just so much based on what you just said about, you know, being in the VA and just giving drugs to mask pain. Also, in your book, you actually show all of very many normal things that people would consider taking for a headache, from Advil to Tylenol to aspirin. And you literally show all the different things that people take to mask the pain. And we're really a society in a lot of ways that ignores these signals that your body and your mental state is saying, pay attention to this. And you've got a whole industry devoted to masking it and to numbing it and to ignoring it. And it's fascinating.

And it's unfortunate. I mean, I mean, the reality is you've got doctors who don't train in nutrition. So they. It would be one thing. It's like if somebody came into my office. I'm not trained in obstetrics or gynecology. So if a woman comes into my office and says, hey, do an exam. I was trained in school to be able to do that exam, but I wasn't, you know, I'm not an expert in it. I don't have. I wouldn't call myself very qualified in doing that. So I wouldn't. And I. And I certainly wouldn't hold myself out to be that expert. And that's the problem. It's that you go to this doctor and not only are they not qualified, but they dismiss it as if it's not important under the auspice that they're not even qualified. So they're not even qualified to dismiss it. Yeah. And the average person really.

I was just gonna say it's really interesting. It reminds me of that story about the guys that are on the river and all of a sudden these bodies start floating down and they're pulling these bodies out of the river and one guy starts rocking up and goes, where are you going? He goes, I'm going to see who's throwing these bodies in the river. It's almost like you're saying people are coming into the doctor when they're in pain, when they're in distress or in some kind of ill health. And it just dawned on me that the reason doctors are trained, once they show up there, but nutrition is kind of like going upstream and seeing what's coming into the. Coming into our digestive system and how that's affecting our bodies.

Well, I mean, and fundamentally, it's the only thing really, you have to begin the process of evaluating somebody's health by evaluating what they put in. I mean, any other system, whether it's a bit. You know, we want to apply this to marketing. You know, your output is based on your throughput and that if you have crappy customers things coming in, then you're going to have an equal crappy output or outcome. And so if you don't at least start from that understanding and then we can have a real honest conversation about why that's important. Even if the doctor's not necessarily trained. You go to a doctor and you have a neurological problem and that doctor's not a neurologist, they're going to refer you to an expert who has that background. Why don't we have. Why don't we have that recommendation coming out of more doctor's offices is all I'm. That's one of the big questions that I, you know, that I pose in the book and try to bring light to in the book is that, you know, we have a huge problem and it's, it's. You can't continue to ignore it because it isn't going to go away. As a matter of fact, we use more drugs and we spend more money per person than any other country in the world. And we're ranked, I think it's 37th in overall healthcare, yet we spend more money. And so you can't keep throwing dollars at it because the outcomes are, you know, medicine is the only business model that I know of outside of government that continues to grow despite failing its customers. You know, that. That's, that's crazy. How can that continue to go on, especially now that we have tax subsidies going into the healthcare system to take care of people who are sick. But our healthcare system doesn't really take care of people who are sick. It tells them that eating garbage is okay because we have a food stamp program that pays for the garbage. And then we have, you know, once they get sick, then we have a medical system that treats the symptoms of them eating that garbage. So ultimately, the taxpayers are footing the bill for feeding people bad food and then giving people bad health care under the guise that it's some kind of. That it's a right. And we won't get into politics, but it's not a right to feed people bad food and then provide them bad health care. It's a right to educate, to provide an education early on that equates the importance of nutrition to overall health outcomes.

Yeah, totally. You know, another thing that's interesting, too. I was watching TV here in Arizona, and we have a sheriff, that Sheriff Joe, who's well known, and people love him or hate him. And I was watching this was. I don't know how many months ago this was, but they had created a vegan, I'm sorry, vegetarian diet for the prisoners. And he's, you know, not in good shape. And he's talking in front of a mic, basically, you know, at this news conference saying that, you know, answering complaints that prisoners have that they're being given, you know, food that doesn't taste good, that isn't healthy. He's like, you know, but it cost much less, so it's able to really slash cost of feeding prisoners. And he's like, hey, they should be happy that they're eating anything. And plus, a vegetarian diet is really healthy. And he's talking about soy and all this. And I'm sitting there knowing what one of my things is. You may know maybe a little bit about Peter Osma, I'm not sure, but I want to help addicts. One of my things, beyond helping entrepreneurs is helping people with addictions. And I know how you eat affects your mood, affects depression, affects addiction. And I'm sitting there thinking, you know, you take a population of prisoners and you feed them horribly bad foods for them, it's not going to make them better, it's actually going to make them worse. And this applies to all different aspects. And it's almost with all of this information out there, there are still so many people and doctors that are clueless. And it's a travesty, I mean, in so many ways. So anyway, without me going on a tangent here, I would like to just kind of get into it and have you define what this is. And I'll say one thing. I had lunch with a ex girlfriend about four days ago and I asked her about a friend of hers who I had not seen in about four and a half months. And. And I said, how's she doing? And she's like, she's great. She lost 80 pounds. She doesn't have pain anymore. She's going to a workout class with her. And I'm like, you're kidding me. And she's like, no. And I'm like, how? She's like grain free. She's like, she's totally great. And I'm like. And it was funny because I was having this interview coming up with you, and I was like, oh, no shit.

And.

It really is interesting. And so I want to have you define what is gluten, what foods usually contain gluten and where might gluten be hiding that many people may not realize, including myself? Because what I've learned from you, it's not just about wheat and oat and barley and rye. It's about corn, it's about rice. I want you to go through that and kind of describe that. But first, before we do that, it begs the question, haven't these foods like corn and potatoes, and I know not all potatoes, sweet potatoes, but haven't these wheat? I mean, haven't they kept millions of people alive? Haven't they served the planet? I mean, I'd like to answer that question first and then kind of go into the pros and cons of all this.

Yeah, it's a very valid and very, I think, pertinent question to the whole conversation is, you know, we talk about Bread or grain in general, wheat as being the staff of life. It's in the Bible. If you're, you know, if you're religious, then, you know, it's part of that. And so that's one of the fundamental questions people come back is it's been such a staple and it's mentioned in the Bible as being the staff of life. It's also mentioned in the Bible though, in Genesis is God's punishment, you will toil in the fields and grow your food as opposed to getting your food from the Garden of Eden, which had no grain. So I'm not a biblical scholar, I can't really comment as to the meaning of what that really means, but I can read something intelligently and make an intelligent interpretation. But it's a double edged sword because there's a really interesting theory in anthropology going around right now on the fact that grain calmed people down, calmed nomadic hunter gatherers down enough for them to be able to form city states and civilizations because prior to that they were so warring. And there's morphine proteins found in grains that calm us down. That's why so many people go to cake or baked goods to get their kind of their calming psychiatric fix, so to speak. They gravitate to those things to calm them down. They gravitate to those things to give them, you know, kind of good feelings those proteins are. Gluteomorphin is one one of the examples of protein found in grain that works like morphine. So there's a theory going around that says that in order to form civilization, grain was actually played a critical role in that because it calmed people down enough and made them quit killing each other long enough to get along, to create civilization in the first place. Wow. And then you have this whole other scenario which is, okay, grain is used in mass to feed larger population, so that instead of people having to hunt and gather for food all day long, they can now turn their attention to learning about metallurgy. They can turn their attention to science and advance civilization and make it so much more convenient in so many other ways. So, I mean, you know, that's the double edge is that in order to have and enjoy the lifestyle that we have today, I think a lot of it happened as a result of having ample quantities of food source, largely in part to grains. But then we have to look at the long term consequences of grain and the long term consequences of the manipulation of that grain. So not only have we manipulated our current strains of grain, we've hybridized them. In some cases, we've genetically manipulated them. And there's arguments to both sides of this and we can get into the science all day long about it. But the truth of the matter is there's no long term safety studies on genetically manipulated grain in humans. There's no safety data. As a matter of fact, we could say there's the opposite of that because the safety data is coming in after 30 years of experimenting on the population. And what we see is we see increased autoimmune disease, we see increased gastrointestinal disease, we see increased leaky gut, and we see that correlate really, really well with some of the genetic hybridized forms of grain. Introduction so we've got that then. We have also. So when I say no grain, no pain. If we define gluten, understand that gluten is by definition, if you're looking at a food label, gluten is very narrowly defined as the subclass of proteins found in wheat, barley and rye. And specifically this particular type of protein called alpha gliadin, which was discovered in 1952 by a German pediatrician by the name of William Dicke. He was treating kids with celiac disease and found that when, when World War II happened and grain was rationed and not available for the children in the hospital, they all made spontaneous recoveries and the celiac disease went away. And he wrote his paper in 1952. And then a group of University of Alabama, Birmingham, a group of doctors discovered the protein alpha gliadin in the same year. And so it was then that was kind of the springboard for this whole thing was that this one particular protein really found in wheat, barley and rye was the culprit for everybody's problems. And that's not true, it's not untrue. Alpha gliadin does and can cause celiac disease, but it isn't the only cause and it's not the only protein found in grain that creates a problem. There are in every grain there are different kinds of protein. Wheat alone has 400 different forms of gluten, but all grains have a different form of gluten. And so each time we go back and study in mass, we study these different types of grains, what we find is that the glutens in these grains actually contribute to pain and inflammation and autoimmune disease and other problems. And it's not just wheat, barley and rye, which has been the message and the gluten free food market has been a large part to blame for this whole thing because they're producing a bunch of junk food. First of all, you can't get healthy. Eating food that isn't healthy, whether it's gluten free or not, is irregardless. But when you promote an entire industry, you know, and then a lot of this industry began by, it was celiac patients. So patients with autoimmune intestinal disease were said, hey, you can't eat wheat, barley and rye, so eat this other junk food instead. And many of them don't get better because they're being told to swap out one food that's bad for them and eat another food that's bad for them. But besides that fact, there are certainly other forms of gluten that are being completely ignored. And a big part of why they're being ignored is because there's a money game behind it. You can charge eight bucks for a loaf of bread that costs eight cents and get away with it. You know, the rice breads and the cornbreads and the other thing, it's big, big money. And a lot of these foods in America anyway are grown, they're under subsidies and they're grown under big ag subsidies. So a lot of these companies can grow it really, really cheap and sell it back to you, call it gluten free as a specialty food, and make a huge and tremendous profit while they're detrimenting the health of the people who are buying it.

Which is exactly what is going on. And I wanted to kind of discover, you know, through you, to what degree this is actually happening so that people that are thinking they're eating gluten free pasta or gluten free breads or gluten free this or gluten free that, thinking they're actually making a better choice. What you're saying is from my research and from my perspective and what I know, they're not at all.

No, not at all. I mean, the fundamental rule and tenet of nutrition is one cannot achieve or maintain health eating food that isn't healthy. And you canyou can we learn this lesson repetitively. And you know the old, the old saying, those that don't know their history are doomed to repeat it, Right? Well, if we go back in time, just look at the fat free movement. Look at the sugar free movement. You know, now it's a gluten free movement once the food and it never was just about fat free. Right? The fat free movement did not start out as don't eat fat. It started out as, look, maybe we ought to look at some of these processed fats and take them out of the diet. Same thing with the sugar Free movement. It didn't begin as a don't eat any carbs movement. It began as a, hey, it's probably not a good idea to eat a bunch of processed crap with sugar in it. But the food industry hijacks these things and they overly simplify it and then they market it. And because they have multi billion dollar marketing budgets, they can advertise to children and in essence brainwash the kids, brainwash the parents, brainwash the doctors. Now you have, you have nutritional paradigms that are completely false, but they're so indoctrinated into marketing that you have a saturation that becomes truth even though it's completely false.

Yeah. Yeah. So, boy, this is such an interesting, complex sort of dilemma because there are so many people that really believe they're making good choices and then you come here with a new piece of information about it that isn't new to you because you been studying and you know it, but it's new to them. So go through, if you could go through all the different places where gluten may be hiding. And you described there's all kinds of different forms of gluten. It's not just what most people are thinking in say, wheat. And you actually, what's great about your book too, at the end of every chapter you actually have. I'm going to go to end of, let me find the end of one of them. You have first off, in the very beginning of the book, you actually give people a test so they can actually check and see if this is an issue for them. And then you have a what you need to know. And it's kind of a summary of each chapter. And then there's a bonus feature and you have videos where people can go to glutenfreesociety.org and there's videos like in the very first chapter, I watched the video today, it was gluten free sensitivity. What is it? And you actually go and describe it. So I'd love to have you kind of give a short version of, you know, where is gluten at? So that people actually know it's not just about bread.

Yeah. So the technical definition of gluten is that it's a family of proteins found in the seeds of grass. And so, you know, all the different forms of grass that we have that you know, are grown for human consumption, it's wheat, barley, rye, it's oats, but it's also corn and rice and sorghum and millet and teff and tritical. So theseall these different other types of Grains, and many of them are oftentimes called gluten free, are really technically not gluten free at all. They're alpha gliadin free, which was that protein we talked about that was discovered in 1952. So hidden places you're going to find lots of gluten are on the gluten free food aisle, where you're looking at gluten free cereals and gluten free pastas and gluten free breads, and the gluten free cookies and donuts and all these other crackers and things that companies are using. Rice, primarily rice, corn and sorghum are, I would say, the three biggest ones used in the US as far as substitute gluten free foods. Again, the FDA defines gluten only with wheat, barley and rye in mind. They don't use any of these other grains as part of their definition. So those are the hidden areas. You can find this stuff as a thickening agent in salad dressing. You can find it. You can find it in skincare products like Aveeno Lotion, which is an oatmeal based lotion I've had patients break out with. There's a disease called dermatitis herpetiformis, which is a gluten reaction in the skin. And I've had patients using oatmeal lotions completely breaking out because they didn't know because their other doctor told them, yeah, oatmeal's okay, go ahead and eat the oatmeal. And they're rubbing oatmeal all over their skin and their skin is breaking out an inflammatory autoimmune condition as a result of that. So you can find it in cosmetics, you can find it as an agent in soups used to thicken soup bases or used to thicken some of these non dairy milks like soy milk or almond milk or some of these other things. You can find it as a sweetener. Corn sugar is one of the biggest sweeteners used today. A lot of people, you know the high fructose corn syrup. So it's really inundated in a lot of our food supply, which is, I think, why the book is so relevant because so many people go gluten free and don't feel better and then they say, this is a bunch of bull. I tried the diet, it didn't work for me. And you know what they really did is they just ate a bunch of processed food made out of corn and rice and got tons of gluten in their diet under the auspicite that it was Gluten free except no gluten.

Yeah. You must walk into grocery stores and stuff and want to throw up. I mean, just seeing. Just the. Because it is a massive sheer level of deception and just the feeding of inaccurate information. It's unbelievable.

Well, and it is, but it always has been. And I guess that's where, as consumers, I think we owe it to ourselves to get educated and we owe it to ourselves to investigate what exactly is it that we're putting in our body. I mean, ultimately, at the end of the day, if we're trying to again, tie this into marketing, if your business fails, you don't blame everyone else. You look in the mirror and say, what could I have done differently? Or what can I go back and change and make this thing be successful? It's no different with your health. You're struggling in your health. What is it that you're doing? What is it that you could change? What is it that you're doing incorrectly? What is it that you're doing correctly and how you can move forward and improve upon your own health.

Right, right. Well, let me ask you, what's the difference between celiac disease and gluten sensitivity?

Great question. Gluten sensitivity is a state of genetics. It isn't a disease. Think of it like this. Peanuts. Is a peanut allergy a disease? No. But if somebody has a peanut allergy and they eat peanuts, they're going to have a consequence to that, that consumption. And think of gluten much in the same way, for a person who's gluten sensitive, gluten sensitivity in and of itself is not a disease. But if a person is gluten sensitive and they choose to eat gluten anyway, then it creates chronic inflammatory processes in the body that lead to autoimmune disease. And so in essence, we could say gluten sensitivity isn't a disease, it's a state of genetics that contributes to or causes disease. The more we ignore what our genes want us to do.

What would be some of those kind of pains that, you know, you're talking about? Like, I think you pretty clearly know if you have celiac disease or some something that's severe like that. But some of the things that I've heard you talk about that are sort of non obvious, maybe not as severe. What kinds of pain are we talking about that might be the result of gluten in our diets?

Well, let's just take the guy who loves to ride his bike every weekend. He stays in pretty good shape. He's active, but his Knees always hurt. Yeah, that could be one of the kinds of pain, bilateral arthritis.

So you might have general like joint pain.

Joint pain, tendinitis. Right, yeah. Chronic, non. So when we. Anytime, anytime I see somebody with a chronic, you know, non traumatic injuries. So they, their, their joints hurt, but they didn't actually injure them. Right. This is a hallmark for food induced inflammation. And there has not been in 15 years of practice I have not seen yet a case of non traumatic pain that could not be resolved with diet change. And I've treated over 5,000 patients, so that's pretty amazing. Doctor, here's the problem. You've got a patient who says, hey, I'm getting older. Right. And their doctor says, oh, you're getting older. It's part of aging. Pain is not a part of getting older. Damage and trauma over time can be, but that's not the same thing as age. Age is a function only of time. Right, but the arthritis is a function of damage over time. Well, where does the damage come from? Right. You have two major forms of damage. You canyou can have traumatic joint or traumatic injury. And then you can have biochemic injury. There's a biochemical cut as a little tiny molecular knife that stabs the tendon repetitively every time you eat the food. And you don't equate what you put. Most people don't equate that. Okay, I'm consuming this to. Why do my joints hurt all the time? Oh, I'm just getting older. I just need to pop the ibuprofen and go ride the bike. Anyway.

Very interesting. I mean that's. So what about some of the other ones, like the skin things you were talking about?

Well, there's a number of skin conditions. There's dermatitis herpetiformis, which looks like little tiny blisters that form on the skin. There's eczema, there's psoriasis, which is another form of inflammatory skin disease. There is another autoimmune skin condition called vitiligo. Most people have heard of Michael Jackson, he had that depigmenting. That's vitiligo. It's an autoimmune depigmentation disease of the skin. So those are kind of some of the skin manifestations. Then you can have other manifestations. There's forms of carditis of heart inflammation that are gluten induced pericarditis. There are forms of what's called non alcoholic fatty liver disease where the liver can actually become damaged as a result of gluten exposure. Migraine headache, which is a very painful scenario, can be caused directly from gluten and grain exposure. You can have other forms of autoimmune disease like lupus, arthritis, rheumatoid arthritis. There are diseases that affect the thyroid gland, like Hashimoto's hypothyroidism, which is a form of autoimmune disease. It impacts the metabolism by attacking the thyroid hormone. There are diseases for women like endometriosis or polycystic ovarian syndrome that have a tie to grain consumption. And clinically speaking, you can see a lot of these problems start to go away. Way hormone disruption for men. I've seen low testosterone, low T. Be caused as a result of grain consumption. So, I mean, and if you think. If you follow. Here's the thing. If you. You know, there's this old saying in medicine that anything can cause anything. So, like, if you follow the dots and you connect the pieces. Let me just give you an example. Let's take the guy with low testosterone. How does that actually lead to pain? Well, there's a lot of ways we can describe or we can define pain, but low testosterone could be low sexual function. That's a form of emotional pain for that guy. Right. That's not just physical pain, but low testosterone can also lead to muscle loss. And now the guy goes to try to work out, and he's more prone to injury, and he's more prone to aggravation of that injury, and he can't build the muscle quite as well. And it's an outcome of grain consumption, if that makes sense. So it's one of those things where you may not feel low testosterone per se, but you feel the outcome of the muscle loss leading to injury.

Yeah, that's. Can you reverse things like Hashimoto.

I was just gonna ask that. Can you, like, how long does it take to. To notice the difference?

You can completely. You can completely reverse these things? Yes.

Yeah. And I'm sorry that Dean keeps interrupting. Peter, he just talks over.

That's okay.

It's very, very hard. It's because he's probably eating the donut right now. Now or some shit.

Gluten consumption causes bad manners. No, I'm just kidding. No. So how long is it? How long? It depends on the person. It depends on their compliance. It depends on what else is wrong with them. As you get to some of the later chapters in the book, in chapter 10 and 11, I go far beyond gluten, far beyond grain. And what I talk about in those chapters is what are some of the other kind of Factors that can contribute to a person's chronic illnesses and pain. And some of it has to do with other foods outside of grain. Some of it has to do with vitamin and mineral deficiencies. Some of it can have to do with underlying chronic infection. Some people have an underlying chronic infection. Some people have heavy metal toxicity like mercury overload. So there are other variables and other factors that play a role in that. But for the average person with an autoimmune disease, in my experience, it takes about 18 months to 3 years for full remission and recovery. But most people feel much better before 18 months. In other words, I say for recovery, meaning we can no longer detect an autoimmune disease when we measure for it. But when I say feeling better, a person can feel better in as little as 30 days, which is why I wrote the book on a 30 day program, because I wanted people to experience, experience the true and utter power of diet change in a timeframe that was reasonable in their own minds. In other words, anybody can do anything for 30 days. And I knew that if we could lay that out and map that out and draw that, draw that connection for someone, then it would go beyond 30 days. Yeah.

And also you actually describe what to eat. I mean, you talk about drinking, which I'd love to have you speak to here. And then I'm going to ask you some questions like what does it take for someone to do this? And kind of go into some of the specifics and how to. But you even talk about bottled water. You know, don't drink out of. Don't drink bottled water.

What do you mean? I've got some bottled water right here.

Well, so I'm drinking bottle.

I'm drinking a half a liter of water since we started.

Well, the water part, the water part's awesome. But the problem is, one of the fundamental issues with grain is that it causes this underlying gastrointestinal problem known as intestinal hyperpermeability, AKA leaky gut. And leak what? Leaky gut is. Imagine your gut is this tube. It's like a garden hose. It runs from your mouth to your anus. And the whole job of your gut is it's a quarantine station. It takes the good from your food and allows it through the proper checks and balances into your bloodstream so that it can be used to nourish your body. But all the waste and the garbage and the toxins, it keeps within the gut and then allows it to be pooped out. Right, Right. That's the premise of the gut. Now imagine instead of all those toxins being excreted out through your poop. Now imagine you've got these holes in your gut lining, so all these toxins are leaking into your bloodstream. Right. And so now they have to go through your liver. And your liver's working overtime because it's having to deal with so much more than it would otherwise have to deal with because your gut's got holes in it. Well, there are several things, and there are several things even beyond grain that can cause leaky gut. Gut. And going back to this plastic water bottle, one of the things we know that contributes to leaky gut is the petrochemicals in plastic water bottles.

Oh, my goodness.

Right? Soso, you've heard of bpa, right? Bpa, Bisphenol A. It' sityou see all these BPA water bottles that are BPA free? Well, BPA is just one type of petrochemical found in plastic. It's kinda like years ago when we.

Said, it says, I've got my Fiji water bottle right here. It says BPA free.

Right.

Okay.

But it isn'tit isn't petrochemical free. It's just BPA free. So you've still got a deluge of chemicals that are leaching into that water that now you're drinking that can contribute to intestinal permeability, which then allows all the toxins in your food to leak into your bloodstream and cause lots of inflammation over time.

What do you think of that?

Dean?

I don't know what to say. I mean.

The point is, don't not drink water. Right. The point is, is that get you.

Where do you get water?

Well, I get mine. I filter it at home. And I just. I have a glass water bottle that I use. Glass is probably the best and most inert substance.

In the water. I mean, and I've got a water filtration system and stuff at home. But isn't that. I always think like this. I mean, Fiji water is natural artesian water from the islands of Fiji. What could possibly be wrong with this?

That's marketing, right? They got you hook, line and sinker. Yeah. You think of Fiji as this most pristine place in the world. Right. But the reality is, is they're putting this most pristine thing in this very toxic vesicle to hold it in. Wow. And. And now, now that that's got to be shipped from here from Fiji to here. And that's gonna happen not in a nice refrigerated unit where the plastics are being preserved a little bit better, but it's going to be shipped at, you know, the temperature could be 100 degrees. And so when that plastic heats up, those chemicals leach into the water to an even greater degree. Then it sits in a warehouse somewhere, then it gets to the grocery store, Then it finds itself to you in all this time, Months go by, and now you've got basically a toxic soup that you're putting in. Yep.

I mean, you know, I gotta mention something about that. And then we'll getwe'll get back to some of the gluten stuff and how people can actually go through with this and start it and all that. I've spent several days with the inventor Dean Kamen. My buddy Peter Diamandis organized a trip a few months ago where we spent four days with Dean going around Boston. He's literally like the Thomas Edison of the modern era. I mean, he's just this great inventor. He invented the Segway, a lot of prosthetic robotic arms. Just this crazy inventor. And he invented this water filtration system that literally is very small and can operate on about half the power that a hair dryer does. And you can put it in third world countries and pour toxic, oily, disgusting water in one side and out the other, and comes surgical grade purified water. And in order to get this water machine into many countries to help with. Now, as far as I know, he's a billionaire, and his house was the most insane house I've ever seen, just of all the inventions and everything. And he ended up doing a joint venture with Coca Cola on this machine that he created, because, unbeknownst to me, they're one of the few companies that can literally get into other countries because of all the bureaucracy, because they're the biggest brand in the world. And I said to him, I go, you know, what about putting these? So Coca Cola is going to position itself as a health care company, but they're selling sugar water. Because I've always would make jokes. The term which I think came from the book Skinny Bitch, you know, sodas like Liquid Satan. And I've always found that to be pretty funny, a funny term. But, you know, he said to me, he goes, you know, if you see some of the conditions that some people live in, you know, drinking a Coca Cola would be a luxury compared to what they even have access to. But the point is, you know, he invented this water filtration machine, and it purifies water. And so I figured if anyone would know a lot about water, it would be him. And I said, you know, what are your thoughts on bottled Water. And he said, you know, he goes, he goes, almost every municipality in the United States, if you drink their tap water, it is better for you than drinking almost any bottled water. And I said, any bottled water like Evian or any of the. He goes, any. And you know, he didn't say that it's toxic, but he said the only reason that you would ever drink bottled water is convenience. He's like, it's not healthier for you. He's like, it's just convenience of carrying it around. But now you take, take it like a step much further. But people are running around drinking bottled water thinking that is a better choice than drinking tap water, drinking something else. And that little insight is huge because most people probably wouldn't think about it.

Yeah, they don't. You're absolutely right. I think it's just another area where we've been told one thing, that after 30 years of being the guinea pig, we're going to be told the complete opposite.

It. Yeah, yeah. So what are, what does it take for someone to go grain free? Meaning what's the plan or the steps? Exactly. And what are, I mean, let's talk about some alternative foods that people can safely eat. Because this, you know, a lot of people be like, there's no way in hell I'm going to be able to eat if I don't eat, you know, corn or if I don't eat rice. I mean, I love sushi, I love tacos. That's the thing.

Like if you take a win way. Yeah, you go from bread and all the things that you clearly know are wheat and then you start replacing and you use like wild rice or you use some kind of brown rice or the things that we've been kind of, you know, come to think of as healthier alternatives that now those are off the table. Yeah, I'm anxious to hear this too.

Well, I mean, in a nutshell, literally your diet needs to be consisting of meat. And not necessarily in this order from greatest to least, but meat, but good quality meat. So if you're buying meat, you can't buy the big kind of commercial cattle. They're being basically force fed corn in a six by six pen. They can't exercise. So the cattle or not the cats, the cows are fat and sick and then we're eating the sick, fat cows. You're not gonna get healthy eating unhealthy foods. So again, you have to consider where your animal meat comes from. So kind of a general rule of thumb, if it's beef, you need to make sure it's grass fed and pasture raised beef. If it's chicken, you wanna look for free range organic. Same thing with turkey. If it's, if it's other, you can eat lamb. If you, if you have a hunter in the family or if you know somebody who hunts wild game is certainly an option as well for. So from a meat variety perspective, there's a lot of different options, fish, et cetera, that you can consume that you just have to check and validate the source to make sure that the source is healthy. And I talk about that a lot in a lot greater detail within the book as well. Vegetables, there are fruits and vegetables. There's over 350 different varieties that are grown seasonably and available. So there's, you know, people say what am I going to eat? And I can guarantee you if I dissected the average amount diet that 90% of what they are consuming is milk, sugar and grain. And so it's not that they're not eating, it's not that they're eating a whole lot of variety now. They're eating three types of foods that are condensed and packaged in different ways under the guise of variety andand whole nutrition. But so we have 350 different forms of vegetables and fruits that are available. We've got a dozen to two dozen forms of nuts and seeds and other things that can be consumed, consumed very easily. So there's a lot of different options and varieties. The key element for most people is you know, where to begin that transition. That's why I gave a bunch of recipes and meal plans because that's the biggest question that we get. What do I eat? And taste is relative. So I can say, okay, well you know, what I'm going to eat tonight is a T bone steak with a big pile of broccoli and some sauteed mushrooms and onions. Right? That to me that sounds good. My mouth is watering. But to the person who is used to eating a big bowl of spaghetti with garlic toast, right, that's the transition. They may not enjoy that steak the way that I enjoy it. So I encourage people to take from the variety of what's available. There's over 400 things that they have that's available to them to eat and to find what it is that they like and incorporate that into their diet. Diet, yeah.

So in terms of the transition and the insane cravings, that is different for many people. But most people can relate to when you, you know, if you stop drinking coffee as an example, or you stop eating carbs, I mean there's there's this craving and you even talk about in your book, even part of the survey, do you crave cookies and cakes and that? I mean, there's this craving and I'm so familiar with, with cravings in the world of addiction, where it's just more powerful than people's ability to, even if they know on an intellectual level that this is going to be better if I don't do this. But they cannot stop. How do you address that?

Well, you can't address that in a book because that's an addiction problem. And it's just like with any other form of addiction, a person's going to need guidance and support around them. Now, some people, you know, even some people with addiction can quit cold turkey. They, you know, they just have the willpower to be able to do that. But that's not everybody's game. Not everybody can do it that way. So the way I would address it would to be in my clinic and we would take them through a number of diagnostic tests and workup that would help us to identify points of why they're having such severe cravings. So some of the reasons why we might have cravings, cravings even after removing the food, is because there's an underlying infection. Some people have a, you know, yeast overgrowth in their intestine. And part of the reason they crave grain so much is because yeast thrive on being fed grain. So they actually hijack the nervous system and the gut, send a message to the brain and tell the brain, eat more of this because we want to be fed. And that's. That can be a very hard and difficult thing to overcome without first identifying that it's something that needs to be overcome because it's actually, we could call it an underlying infection. There are some people with vitamin and mineral and amino acid deficiencies, and so they have particular cravings because they don't properly produce neurotransmitters to control those cravings effectively. And if we identify what those are, we can sometimes supplement through those cravings. And a person doesn't have quite those issues and can overcome it a lot easier. So part of it is you just have to know who you are as a person. But I tried to lay it out in the book to where anybody could follow it for 30 days. And if they, if you, you know, that's why we transitioned it from a 15 day and then tothe first 15 days are a little bit easier to follow than the last 15 days. And part of that has to do with that, with that transition of okay. Start with these foods and then finish it out with these. Yeah.

And I mean, I think of a lot of people immediately, which I know you've laid it out for that reason, to make it as easy as possible and to also have people feel what it feels like to feel better. And hopefully that will be a far greater benefit than the consequences of. Yeah, maybe I have these tastes. Maybe this is satiating because I'm eating popcorn in a movie theater or whatever. But basically, that's grain. What's that, Dean?

That's grain. Popcorn. That's grain, right?

Yeah, it is, yeah. Popcorn. All these things.

Rice cakes. That's grain.

Yup, yup. All theandgluten free muffins. You know, it's all grain. I mean, all that stuff.

Yeah.

Unless it's made out of almond flour or something. And, you know, that's it. So this is a big shift. But, you know, also going to the addiction thing, I've actually seen people's addictive cravings dramatically change with nutrition. You know, so much of, you know, I've. I mean, I've talked publicly about my addictions, and I'm in the midst of doing a documentary which may take me several years to do, because I'm going to do it as effectively as humanly possible. So I've been just doing some crazy interviews and all kinds of stuff related to addiction because it's such a complicated thing. But so much of it, too, has to do with what you put in your body. I mean, the foods you eat, if you're having sensitivities or you're allergic to. To it. I mean, you're putting food in your body that is making you go batshit crazy. And if you eliminate that, you can get a lot better. So let me ask you a question about how would someone know if they have gluten sensitivity or issues with eating grain? And what should they be aware of to look for in terms of symptoms so that they can even determine if this applies to them? My sense from you is that that everyone would be well served to not eat grains. Is that true?

You know, I never like to say that that one diet is right for everyone in the world because there's so many elements to grain that aren't inherent to grain. And what I mean by that is, let's say, okay, grain itself for some people who are gluten sensitive is completely the wrong way to go genetically for their diet. They just shouldn't do it because it's like eating pork poison. But to people who aren't gluten sensitive. There are other things in grain that are just bad for you, like pesticides, like the way that it's grown. There are other proteins in the grain that can shut down your pancreas, ability to digest your food. There are just a number of different other elements. Some grains are high in levels of heavy metals, like cadmium into arsenic and mercury. So for different reasons, grain can be unhealthy for different people. Now, if we're just talking about true gluten sensitivity, meaning that the genetic markers can be measured to determine whether or not a person genetically should not eat grain. Because at the end of the day, to me, that' sthe best piece of advice to have is that piece. Because that then shows you. Look, if you shouldn't eat it and it's genetic, then now, you know, you've gotta commit the rest of your life to something as opposed to just saying, let's try this diet for 30 days. Does that make sense? So, I mean, there are unhealthy things.

Doctor, similar to people's blood types.

No, no blood type is the same. Well, blood type is a genetic marker. I mean, you. You know, there are different blood types that, you know, Dr. D' Adamo wrote about that talks about certain people with certain blood types shouldn't eat certain foods. But, no, these are. These are particular. These are different genes altogether. We're actually measuring a gene path. What we're measuring is the gene that's responsible for producing an antenna on the immune cells that look at gluten as either a bad guy or a good guy. And if we have that information, then we know that person definitely shouldn't be eating grain. Whether they're symptomatic or not is completely irrelevant. Whether they have symptoms or not, whether they have disease or not is irrelevant, because as you said before, you said earlier, I think it was Dean that said this. You said that it's obvious if you have celiac disease. Disease, it's not. That's the whole problem, is that it doesn't matter what disease that you have. It isn't obvious. The average person with gluten sensitivity won't get a diagnosis until their mid-30s or 40s. And it's because it takes decades of inflammatory damage to create enough of an issue for their body's adaptation process to basically no longer continue to be able to get them to adapt and survive.

Well, now, I know you list all of this in the book, and obviously, we really encourage everyone to get a copy of no grain, no pain. If you actually.

Right.

By the time we release this, the book will be coming out. But I do want to ask you about different tests and various things that. For one, just so people are aware, you can take tests to determine this to a degree. There are certain things that you mentioned you can't test for, but I want to talk about that and I also want to make sure. Do you have extra time? Because I actually want to go a little bit over the time that we typically do our podcast for, because this, to me is so interesting and valuable. Are you good for time?

I'm good. I'm good on time, yeah.

Okay, great, great. So what would be the test that people can diagnose these sort of food allergies, the genetic tests? And where do they go? What do they do? I know you have your clinical clinic in Sugarland, but. Yeah. What advice can you give?

Yeah. So if they want to really get genetically tested without seeing a doctor, they can go to glutenfreesociety.org, there's a link right there. It says genetic testing. It's in the menu.

Okay.

And that's a test kit. It's DNA testing. And what it allows them to do is swab their cheeks and send it off to the lab. And basically the report comes back as to whether or not they have the markers for gluten sensitive genes. As far as food allergy testing goes, though, right now, commercially, it's not available unless you go see a doctor. I'm working with the lab that I use on that whole process. The issue is a lot of doctors or a lot of labs don't want to make things commercially available because they don't want to try to establish a doctor patient relationship kind of an issue, you know, the legalities that go behind that kind of thing. So we're trying to make it, to make it happen, but it's just not there yet. But that test, that particular test, the one that I use in my clinic, actually measures. There's six different ways a person can have an allergic reaction. And most labs only measure one or two different ways. So they're very incomprehensive in the way they're evaluating allergic response in patients. We look at all six and we measure about 316 different things. So if it's a food and you've heard of it, it's probably on this test. But we also measure for chemicals like the different pesticides. We measure for the food dyes and food preservatives and food additives and other things that might be present in food or in the environment that you could control coming in that might have an inflammatory impact on your immune system and your body overall.

Okay, how much do these tests cost?

Gluten sensitivity? Yeah, it's about $400 for gene testing for gluten and for allergy testing of that nature is about $1,300.

Okay, gotcha.

Yeah.

And, I mean, it's not cheap, but it probably would be the cheapest thing in the world to determine that you're poisoning yourself and you're having all these reactions and you can make pain go away. Because. Because I know that the vast majority of what is called healthcare, it's really sick care, is aggravated mostly by what people are putting into their bodies and into their minds. Because I'm also a big believer of a lot of pain is repressed emotions. But if you're in an inflammatory state all the time, you're not going to be a very. Your body is not going to be a very happy body. Let's talk about inflammation, because that's what is really happening here. But you also state in the book where I've read up to, that inflammation is not, per se, a bad thing. It's kind of the degree of it, because it's really a signal that your body is. So talk about inflammation. Define what it is and the good and the bad.

Yeah. So we hear about. There's this word we hear. Oftentimes it's called metabolism. And metabolism is referred to as the sum of all chemical reactions in the body. Now, some of these reactions are inflammatory or inflammation reactions. But I want to. I want to. The reason I bring up metabolism is because I don't want your audience or listeners to think metabolism and fat loss, because that's usually where it's associated. There are two kinds of reactions. There's anabolic and there's catabolic reactions. Now, anabolic reactions are metabolic reactions where a person's building or growing new tissue. So, for example, if you get a cut, you've got to repair that cut. So you've got to build and regrow new skin, Right? That's an anabolic response. Same thing with building muscle. That most guys in the gym, they think, okay, I'm taking anabolic steroids to build muscle, right? It's an anabolic or a building or growing reaction. And then you again, you have the catabolic reaction, which is the actual breakdown aspect of theof the reaction. So inflammation is kind of a controlled combination of breakdown and rebuild, Right. So think of it almost likelike the wrecking ball plus the construction crew, right? You go into the old project and you knock down the old building because you know it's bad for the neighborhood. It's drug dealers and crime that's going on. So you break that old building down that's damaged and mold infested, and then you have a construction crew come in there and rebuild it. So the breakdown is the catabolic part of inflammation, and the buildup is the anabolic part of inflammation. And so we have, what we have is in a scenario of chronic inflammation is we have a wrecking ball that just won't quit swinging. And it's swinging out of control. And instead of knocking over the building, it's supposed to, it's knocking over the neighbor building and the other neighbor building. And so you just get this collateral damage that grows and grows and grows and is not being properly healed. So we get inflammation out of control without the anabolic regrowth or repair process. So the repair process never getsit never gets to be completed. And it's because the wrecking ball never quits swinging. And if gluten isis the wrecking ball and grain is the wrecking ball and you eat it every day, then you create this scenario in your body that over time, it can no longer, at a point, it can no longer continue to adapt to the repetitive, we'll call it biochemical trauma, because that's what it is, it's biochemical damage. It's damage induced as a result of food chemistry. And so that trauma that doesn't go away, it just continues. It's like ripping a scab off. Every time it starts to heal, you rip it off and then it bleeds and it's re injured and it has to go through the clotting process again and go through thethe fibrinogen response and the creating of new skin tissue response. And then if everybody. Every time you rip the scab off, you end up with a chronic state of damage, right? And so imagine that on a molecular level inside your organs or inside your tissues, where you can never, you can never get full repair.

Wow.

Yeah, that would be bad. That would not be good.

Yeah. Because it leads to tissues over time that begin to lose their own function they're so busy trying to repair that they never get to the work of what theirwherever that organ is. If it's a heart cell, Right. It never gets to the work of helping the heartbeat. If it's a skin cell, it never gets to the work of secreting oil or growing hair or doing what skin cells do. If it's A liver cell, it never gets to the work of detoxifying other chemicals that are coming through the bloodstream. It's just chronically inflamed, so it can never really do its job. So now we're working with a. A limited set of tools, with a limited set of organ tissues not at full capacity. Wow.

How does this affect mental state? How does it affect thinking and focus and concentration, energy and fatigue?

Yeah, that's what I was wondering, too.

So the central theme in this is oxygen. If you think about oxygen as a nutrient that we don't eat, but we breathe, right? The brain requires oxygen. The liver and the muscles, those three organs, require the most oxygen. And so the body actually prioritizes oxygen delivery. It wants the brain to get oxygen. But oxygen isand the reason why is oxygen is required for the fundamental process of generating energy. Right? Andand think of it like this. Just like living in the world, you need money to buy clothes and to buy gas and toand to pay rent or, you know, you need money to live right in your body. You need this chemical called ATP, which is awhich is energy, right? It's the. Basically, it's the equivalent of money in our bodies. But in order to make ATP, you need oxygen. Oxygen is the prerequisite. So if you don't get enough oxygen, what ends up happening is your brain will start to not think as clearly. Okay? And even though your body tries to prioritize that oxygen going to your brain, fundamentally you're not generating enough energy, and you start to get breakdown. You start to get a breakdown in the system. So the brain will try to pull the oxygen by increasing the blood pressure. So a lot of people will actually develop high blood pressure as a result of this whole process. That'll be their side effect because theirtheir heart's beating and their vessels are constricting to try to get more oxygen to the brain, which is where we want it to go. So then they start to have that elevated pressure in the brain, which isn't good. But in order to get the oxygen that the brain needs to generate the energy, you've got to increase, increase the pressure, right? So the hoses, then they start to tear and they start to rupture, and then you start to develop other risks for cardiovascular disease. That's just one example of how this whole process works. Now, the other way that it can affect the brain. So in one way, it can affect the brain because it depletes oxygen storage. Again, if your body is using and driving all energy production to try to Heal this chronic inflammation as opposed to getting oxygen to the brain. Brain, okay. To generate the proper energy and function of the brain, that we can develop brain fog and inability to think or clearly remember things. But then there's also the drug like impact of these foods. One of the compounds that's heavy in grain is a mold toxin. And actually there's a, there's a name for this. If we go back and look at gluten sensitivity, one of its original names was called bread madness. And bread madness was thought to be caused by two things. One was the protein found in the grain, which caused a schizophrenic like problem. In other words, person went crazy. Secondary though is there's a mold toxin that is high in grain that also can contribute to this. Because this mold, just like mushrooms, can impact the brain in the way we think. Right? This mold toxin can also impact the way that the brain thinks. So we can get a biochemical reaction as a result of the mold exposure, a biochemical reaction as a result of the grain exposure. And then remember I said before there were proteins in grains called gluteomorphins which could actually act like morphine on brain receptors. Receptors. And that can impact the way that the brain thinks and the way that we feel pain and the way that we make decisions. And then you also have this whole process, just like I talked about leaky gut earlier, you have this other process called leaky brain. And the brain, the blood brain barrier is made of similar types of cells. So you getyou can get a leakage of those cells that surround your blood brain barrier. Now chemicals are bombarding into the brain, and the brain has to detect, detoxify, and it has to deal with these chemicals. And so again, its resources are being used up trying to deal with this onslaught of new things that don't belong and so that it can't do its normal function. So there's a lot of mechanisms. I'm just mentioning kind of four of the most common. There's a lot more than that. But there's a lot of ways that it can impact brain function, neurological thought processes. Wow.

Wow.

What about beverages? Coffees and teas and things that people drink? What are. Would you know, do you. And I would even like to ask you, I mean, do you ever drink coffees? Do you drink. I mean, like, what do. Have you gotten to a point where you're just. I mean, you never have any grains, you never have ice cream, you never do anything like that? Or is thatI mean you never have cheat days or how do you actually like, what do you drink and what's safe to drink from your perspective, smart to drink? You know, safe and smart, I guess, are two different things. And I know a lot of this depends on the person, but. Yeah, give me some parameters.

I like water. Water being the safest and the smartest. Our bodies are 60% water. Let me ask you a little bit.

About that water because you're saying about the bottled water. So like, given the choice between like let's say a bottle of coke would be a 10bad for you, where would replacing that with bottled water fall? Like, how are we fooling ourselves thinking this drinking the Fiji water is any better for you, or is it?

I think so. I think, I think so. I mean, it's one thing, I think, Dean, it's one thing if you're in an airport and you don't have any water and you're, you're completely dehydrated and you're shutting down. Yeah, drink a bottle of Fiji water by all means. But it's another thing that, that's our day to day habit. Remember, it's consist time that yields results when it comes to nutrition. And so it's not what you do today per se, it's what you do consistently. I never personally eat grain, I just don't. That's where I draw the line. It's a slippery slope, you know, look, I'm gluten sensitive genetically, so I'm not gonna go there. Some people choose to have a cheat day. I don't recommend a cheat day because 20 parts per million exposure of gluten to somebody who's genetically gluten sensitive can cause an inflammatory response response for up to two months. And to me, that if you're cheating one time a week, you justit's like pouring a little bit of gas on a fire that's still on. Right. It's easy to keep the fire to burning by just adding a little bit of fuel periodically. As far as other drinks, coffees and teas are concerned. Yeah, I drink. I'm noti'm not opposed to drinking coffees and teas. Now, there are people that are clinically, they're in a certain scenario or certain situation where they've got to cut it out, out. They just have to. I have some patients that are allergic to coffees or teas. I'm personally allergic to black tea, so I don't drink tea at all. But I'll have an occasional cup of black coffee and I'll use that more as an ergogenic aid. When I'm. When I'm going up to do a lecture or I'm going up to do a speech, because caffeine is a stimulant. And when you need more out of your body, you know, that's one of the times where I'd say it'd be okay to use it. But if you're using it consistently on a day to day basis to get by, because your energy level level by itself is so low that you can't function without it, now you've got an addiction problem, and that's a different ball game. There's a lot of other beverages that are just fine. I mean, there's things like, I mean, some people really love coconut water. Some people like to do fresh squeezed juices. All those things are okay, depending on who you are as a person, whether what you're allergic to and what things you should or shouldn't eat, or what things you do or don't tolerate. So I don't want to just be the, you know, the stoic food Nazi and say, water only, you know, with the gavel down on the desk. But it'. Sit. Water is ultimately the best choice that we have to make. But there are other resources for water. One of the best places to get water is in eating fresh vegetables. A lot of people won't consume fresh vegetables. So they're dehydrated, not because they're not drinking fluids, but because they're not eating some of the foods that are largely water based. So. So, I mean, there's a. There's a lot of way. I guess my point is there's a lot of ways to answer that question. I would say I don't like toto bastardize or demonize any one category of food without scientific validity for that person's uniqueness. Which is one of the reasons why fundamentally I like to genetically test people for gluten sensitivity, but we also have to look at certain categories of food and say, is that category of food even healthy? Like, is the category of ice cream healthy? No, it's not. So should you eat it consistently? No, you shouldn't. If you had it every once in a while, is that the end of the rope for you? No, I don't think it is. But I think we have to define every once in a while. Right?

Right.

Well, and yeah, and every once in a while for a lot of people is like all the time. What about dairy? Milk products? And a lot of people think eggs are dairy, but I'm talking about like something that is derived from, from cow's milk, from butters to all the yogurts to cheeses. And so many of the things that people love.

Well, dairy is another one of those that if you're buying it from the grocery store, the biggest problem with dairy, and this isn't all dairy 100% across the board, you got to do your own homework. But there's, there's a processing that goes into dairy. And one of the things that happens with dairy is they add. There's an industrial enzyme added to the dairy. It's called mtg, microbial transglutaminase. And microbial transglutaminase does a couple different things. One, it thickens the dairy. So like in yogurt, it's a very common ingredient in yogurt and cheeses, it's a very common ingredient in ice creams, etcetera, etcetera. The other thing that MTG does is it extends the shelf life, and that's why it's used. The problem with it is that when you apply MTG to the protein in dairy, it makes the dairy look like gluten. So if you take somebody who's truly gluten sensitive and okay, you're saying, yeah, dairy's okay, dairy can be okay. But for you, it's probably not okay because the dairy you're buying is, you know, that H E B brand or that Kroger brand or whatever, grocery store brand, and they treat it with mtg. Therefore, you're gonna be consuming a dairy that now mimics gluten, and that's a problem. But as a whole, if we look at dairy as a food source, look, there are a lot of cultures that have thrived on dairy. So I'm noti'm not necessarily an anti, 100% anti dairy advocate, but again, you have to look at the source of where the dairy is coming from and where that person is buying it. That's why we can't oversimplify things. Right. That's why I hate it when media gets or when commercialization is brought in and we make these processes overly simplified and we say that it's safe and healthy and great for everyone because it's just not. Right.

Right.

Yeah.

And like I say, you got to do your homework. And I imagine most of this is, if not all of it is definitely covered. But what, what is not covered in your book as it relates to this that people are going to need to go deeper on, because I do want to. The thing with reading your book, here's my take on people having been.

An.

Information marketer, if you want to use that term, or someone to use a Dan Sullivan strategic coach term, someone that sells knowledge products. And now, now putting out. Me and Dean have had probably well over millions of people have listened to our podcast, all the different ones we've done. And I watch and observe. Most people simply are not going to change that much. They may dabble around with it, but a lot of people, books like this, and I've seen when I say books like this, this is as a standalone, it's a damn good book and it's a damn good guide. A lot of people don't want to, they literally don't want to read it because they don't want to be convinced or they don't want to know really what is happening because it's almost like I don't want to go to a doctor because I might find out I have cancer. As if that's a better position to be in than knowing what to do. So a lot of people may just not want to go down this path, but I would encourage all of our listeners to really not only read the book, but try it, you know, see how it makes you feel. Because the whole thing of consistency over time, that, that is so true and that, that's such a powerful statement with anything. I mean, you know, even people that listen to our podcast related to marketing, I mean if they, they just dabble with it to almost borrow a 12 step term, half measures of value, nothing. And if you go into this sort of half ass, you're probably, you may get a little bit better results, you may feel a little bit better. But if you really want to transform, you want to go into this and really learn it and how much time have you spent? Because this is a very well research book. I mean, God, when you look at just the back, all of your sources and stuff, I mean you've put a lot of work into laying this out. I mean, what's the time investment that you've put into creating?

No grain, no pain, about 15 years. Yeah, I mean a lot of it is, yeah, you do the research and you validate it with research studies and clinical studies. But a lot of it is just experience and being at the point where you, you have a knowledge base that you feel is worthy enough to share with a large audience that could be potentially life changing. And so for me it's been, I won't call it my Magnus opus, but I'll say it's chapter one of my Magnus opus. Yeah.

Who are the people that hate you? I mean, there's got to be food companies. There's got to be. I mean, who are you? Biggest, biggest critics.

I guess I'd say there's a lot of people out there that hate me. And even a lot of the people in my own industry hate me because I say it for what it is. I'm a no holds barred, truth kind of a guy. And a lot of people in this industry have so much to profit, to lose from or to lose by continuing to lay out the deception. They're so. They're so blind to it that they won't even read this book. But we've been threatened by a number of major places. I hate to even mention who they are because I don't want to give them the press. I don't think they deserve it.

No, no, you don't need to mention names and that. It's more or less like thinking of categories versus unless there's really a person or a company, you really just want to say screw them. I'm not saying you don't need to mention names, but my request is not to try to dig that out.

You.

It's more like, you know, who are the. You know, where's it really coming from? What sort of industries or institutions?

You know what the irony is? It's really the people who have struggled the most to get recognition about their disease being caused by diet are the people who have been diagnosed with celiac disease. And the irony is that that very audience. Now, I'm not. I hate to generalize, you know, generalizing. You always miss some people. But the bulk of people in the hate mail and the hate letters that we get comes from that audience because they've been sticking to. It's almost like they're victimized by the disease. It's their disease. It's my celiac disease. You can't have it. You can't hijack it by saying that gluten is also in corn and rice. This belongs to me. And it's a weird kind of a thing, but we get a ton of hate mail from the celiac community. Community. Even though that's probably the community that could benefit the most from reading the book.

Right, right. Which is quite interesting. I mean. Yeah. You know, when you go out trying to be helpful and useful, you know, and a lot of people are, you know, will say that, well, you know, you're just trying to, you know, ride on this wave and this bandwagon of gluten free and get all this scientific research to support. What you're saying is. Is True. But we're going to find out, like everything else, that this is just another fad. I mean, I'm sure you're hit with that sort of accusation all the time, I would imagine.

Yeah. There are those people too. As you know, in this industry, you've got to have tough skin. If you're not getting criticism, you're probably not. You're not on the cutting edge and you're not moving the needle.

Yeah, yeah. Well, let me ask you a couple of other questions and then we'll just. I'd love to have you give out some sources for one, getting the book and then anything else about your clinic and stuff like that. Because I think it would probably be really helpful to a lot of our listeners to just really utilize this for transforming their health. What are some of the new and interesting discoveries you've made in the book no Grain, no Pain that we have not discussed?

I think one is the fact it's rice as a substitute for grain. A lot of people, a lot of people say how healthy rice is. Some of the topics we discuss is that rice is a staple food in Asia and Asia has higher diabetic rates than any other country in the world. I say Asia. I mean, I'm going to refer directly to China because Asia is obviously not a country. So that's one of the things we didn't discuss is the diabetic tendencies that rice has. We didn't discuss the fact that rice contains high levels of arsenic and cadmium, which is extremely toxic to the brain. We didn't discuss that. Rice as a food substitute is one of the largest contributors to an infant condition called fpies. Fpies, which stands for food protein induced enterocolitis, which is a disease state that is prolific today because of the formulas and the baby foods that are being made from gluten free bases out of rice. So I'd say that's one element. A lot of people use rice as kind of that defense food. Hey, this is the one I'm going to eat. Because. Because we did a diagram years ago and it listed the concentration of gluten found within each grain. And rice was the one that had the lowest concentration of gluten. So so many people took that chart and they used it and they manipulated it in a way to justify eating rice. Anyway. And so I just, I want to point all those things out about rice. Don't justify rice. It's not justifiable. Okay.

Wow.

Yeah.

And I know, I mean, and even what you said, a lot of people in the industry there's many people I've seen interviewed that just swear that eating brown rice is a very healthy thing to do. And you're saying it's not?

Yeah. What about vegans?

I mean, what if someone, you know, they don't want to eat meat because they animal cruelty or it's their, you know, belief system there. Is there a way to do this and be vegan?

I think it, I think there is. You know, I'm not, I'm not, I'm not anti vegan. I think there's a lot of people that do really well not eating meat. And I've seen that in my clinic where people just, when they try to eat meat, they get gastroparesis, their gut shuts down and that constipates them for a week. They have to do it smart though. I mean, you know, a vegan based diet is devoid of a couple different things. One, there's certain nutrients that you have to really look out for. One ISIS, vitamin B12, zinc is another one, iron is another one, vitamin B6 is another one. Those arethose are nutrients that are gonna be higher in meat and the forms of those nutrients are gonna be higher quality and better absorbed when they're coming from a meat source. So somebody who wants to be vegan should be having an annual blood workup where they'rewhere they have a good relationship with a doctor who's intelligent about nutrition and who can really kind of monitor that stuff for them so that if they do need to supplement, they can, in other words, just approach it intelligently. The other aspect to that is that vegan proteins are not what we would call complete proteins. A complete protein is largely defined by its. A complete protein contains all of what we would call the essential amino acids. Now there's about 22amino acids. Ten of them are essential, meaning your body can't make them. It has to get them from the diet. Diet. And so the proteins that have the most highly biologically valuable and available essential amino acids are meats. And there's no arguing that we know that to be true. So with vegetarians and vegans, sometimes the issue is they, they may get enough protein per se, but they're not getting enough of the essential amino acids within their diet. And so again, having that doctor in that relationship where they can have their protein levels checked and their amino acid levels checked periodically just to make sure they're not moving in the wrong direction, I think if they're going to do it, that's the smart way too.

Okay, yeah. What about things like chocolate and alternatives to sugar, but still high in sugar like honey and molasses and things like that.

I think again, that piece has to be very, very moderate. There's nothing wrong with it at the end of the day. Now I will preface that by saying, you know, and I hate to bust the paleo bubble here, but so many people go paleo and you see all these paleo chocolate recipes and there's no such thing as paleo chocolate. Chocolate is a legume. It is a legume. You cannot have chocolate if you're truly following a paleo diet. Although no grain, no pain is not a paleo diet. So chocolate is okay from that perspective. Where you have to be careful is quantity. Chocolate can be very high in caffeine, depending on the concentration. And so you can end up with a caffeine addiction as a result of chocolate. Chocolate can trigger migraines for many people who have pre existing migraines. And chocolate that's full of honey and maple and other types of what we would call natural sweeteners, those things can still, if you over consume them, can still become a problem. Yeah.

And so when you, you know, I wish someone would change it. Legumes, I don't even ever like saying it. I never pronounce it right. So I just. Can you say beans or does that not really count?

No, you can, but I mean you can absolutely say beans. That's perfectly fine. Dr. Well, and you know what's so funny about, you know, coffee's a bean too and that that's the other thing in thein the paleo world is that the chocolate and the coffee are the two conveniently forgotten about food items that are highly addictive thatthat they tend to ignore.

Look, at the end of the day, I mean, humans are monkeys that drive cars. So they're always trying to like, you know. Yeah. Trying to fit things in, in, match what it is they like and kind of altering. It's amazing how much things are bastardized. What about when eating out at restaurants? What should people watch out for in terms of grains and gluten? What are the hidden things and what does someone do to ensure a grain free, gluten free experience when they're out and about? And that also, that's one part of it and then the other part of it. I want to to hear how do you actually travel? Like when you're flying on airplanes and going through airports, I mean, how the hell do you eat and what do you do in advance? What do you bring with you? So let's first cover restaurants eating out and then let's go into travel.

Okay? So first and foremost, there's no 100% foolproof way to eat out. That being said, I don't say that to scare everybody out of the restaurant, but understand it doesn't matter where you eat out. There's always a risk of cross contamination or there's somebody in the kitchen goofy. So if you're highly gluten sensitive, then that it's something you have to consider. Now, that being said, you've got to look out for the sauces and the gravies and the marinades, things that they baste food in or that they pre soak food in. If it's not a real restaurant, I say a real restaurant. A real restaurant has a chef, A fake restaurant has a cook. And it's very important to define that because typically, and I say that because typically a restaurant will have a chef that picks the ingredients from the local, local market. And so it's typically real food that you're getting served, whereas where there's a cook, typically it's a kind of a pre condensed chicken breast that's been, you know, molded into a specific shape and frozen and shipped to the place. And they're calling that. Yeah. So like, so like, for example, like a Chili's or an Olive Garden, you're not getting. That's not real food. Right. Understand that. That's food that's been, you know, shaped and compressed and flavored so that no matter where you go and no matter where you eat, it tastes exactly the same whether you're in China or whether you're in the US So my advice is when you eat out, eat out at a restaurant and order meticulously. But it's even better if you have the ability to get online and check out their menu before you go. Because the last thing you want to do is be a pain in the waiter's ass. Right. And then he hates you and then he cross contaminates your food on purpose. So I always like to show up and just call ahead. I always like to call ahead and say, hey, either it's a place I know and I'm familiar with and they're familiar with me. And I have a few, I have a few here local that I'll go to and we have great relationships, or I like to call ahead when they're not busy and say, hey, I'm coming in and you know, I'm going to buy dinner for 10 people. And here's what, what my needs are. Can you match those needs. What do you think? And generally when you do that kind of thing, they're so accommodating when you go in and you're not being a pain in somebody's rear because you've already kind of prepped them and planned them, that you're coming in there to basically be choosy about the menu.

Right, right. So yeah, that's great advice. Okay, so travel, like when you travel, how do you prepare?

I take a backpack and I always load it up with grass fed beef jerky and pumpkin seeds and dried cherries and almonds and pistachios. And the reason why I pick those foods is because they're high caloric, there's a lot of fat in them. The protein bar or not the bar, the grass fed beef stick gives me the protein that I need. Especially if I'm going to work out and I can't get to a place where there's quality food being served or if I'm in an airport, I will not eat airport food. So I pack plenty of that kind of stuff with me when I go. It's easy, me for food. If you like fish, you can pack sardines, you can pack tuna, you can pack canned salmon and things of that nature. And I also try to, again, I try to plan ahead when I'm traveling too. Wherever it is that I'm going. If I can get to a particular hotel, maybe that's in a district near a Whole Foods or near a Trader Joe's or something where I know if I'm in a bind, I can go there and I can grab some stuff to eat. Or if I can get a hotel that may even have like a, like a kitchenette where I can prep some of my own food. Boiled eggs are also a really easy thing to take because, you know, they last a pretty good long time and you can, you can carry them with you. So I mean there's, there's, there's plenty of options. It's just not gourmet. And when I travel, I do travel stoically. I know that I might miss a meal and I know that that's okay. It's actually partly when I travel, I use it as an excuse to sometimes fast because I like to, I like to fast regularly anyway because it's, you know, there's two things that we know prolong human lifespan. One is fasting and the other is maintaining your muscle as you age. So if you just followed those two pieces of advice, you're going to live 20 years longer than your counterparts who.

Don'T say those two pieces of advice again, just to reiterate them.

So fast or eat less. Right. And it boils down to eating about 20% less than the government recommends. Okay. And the other is maintaining your muscle as you age.

Yep, very much agreed. I mean, when I look at people that, you know, exercise because I, you know, I try to, I try to stay as fit as I can and I'm moving a lot and I do a variety of things from yoga to spinning to hiking to strength training, you know, riding bikes, you know, various stuff, swimming. Once in a while, you know, I'm always trying to, to move. And people that I see that just stick to like one form of exercise, you know, like runners, but they never do strength training. I mean, the people that I have met over the years that seem to have the be in the best condition as they get older are the ones that absolutely focus on maintaining, you know, muscle.

Yeah. Hands down. I mean, and then you don't have to be a CrossFit athlete to do that either. You just have to, have to, you just have to do it consistently. You have to do something consistently. So many people stop, they get, they halt in the process of exercise because they don't want to have to do aggressive exercise. And I just say it's best to start with something even if it's small body weight stuff. Push ups, sit ups, squats, lunges. You don't even need equipment. And just do it consistently every day.

Yeah, totally. Well, so what's something that I or Dean didn't ask you but we should have. If anything.

You guys did a great job, man. I mean, you throw a ton of questions at me. I would say, I would say, I would say we answered pretty much everything I would want to have wanted to cover.

Yeah, yeah, no, this was very thorough.

Let me summarize for us then. So just in summary is no gray.

Hey, Dean, are you gonna, are you gonna follow this?

I wanna know, what do you think?

Well, I just wanna make sure I'm summarizing it right. No grain, no pain.

That's it. That's a perfect summary.

I mean we bookended. I'm still shell shocked from the bottled water. I'm just, I mean, I'm really.

It's just blowed my mind, you know.

What?

Like now obviously I shouldn't say this stuff publicly, but I will because, you know, considered to our, I love marketing listeners, I'm like the, the smart ass one that's always busted on Dean and stuff like that, but actually I think I'm quite conscientious and I do want to alleviate as much human suffering as I can for myself, the planet and everyone. And so I always try to bring advice and knowledge and wisdom to people. Hell, that's even why I do genius network. I'm just trying to have a network of geniuses that can connect with each other. And so I'm always trying to just expose people to things that I think will be useful. And like they say in 12 step groups, take what you like and leave the rest. Although in some cases you'd be well served to take it all and test it out on yourself before you form an opinion. And what I like about your book is, I mean, that's basically what you say in the book. It's like, try it. I mean, see for yourself. If you feel better, you're going to know this works. In spite of what someone says, if this is valid or not. No one really knows how this is going to affect them unless they try it. You have no way of knowing if a treatment or a diet or a method or a process works if you don't actually try it. So to do this. But I actually Dean, I think it would be an amazing test to see how you would feel pain wise, health wise, everything, if you actually did this and came back and reported to all of the. I love marketing listeners because I'm doing this. I mean, I've been doing it for going on now and I'm already. I eat mostly paleo. I mean, that's kind of how my diet has been for probably the last five years. But I'll still go out and eat sushi. I'll still go out and drink coffee and lattes every once in a while, usually with almond milk and stuff. But I don't pay that much attention.

Well, actually I do.

I should not say that, but I don't like, I'm not militant about it with sauces and dressings. If I ever order a salad, I always get the dressing on the side. I know that most dressings in restaurants are going to be crab, so I do the best, but I've never taken it fully. No grain. I'll still go out and eat tacos and various stuff and I get soft. I try not to do deep fried stuff. I don't eat processed food. I mean, almost everything that I, I consume is fresh. I mean, it's like Michael Pollan says, eat foods that have one name, like broccoli or chicken, not like Doritos isn't one name. But I've never taken it to this level. And I'm pretty convinced that a lot of things that are issues are because of this. So I'm going to give it a shot and not just give it a shot. I mean, I'm just going to see how I feel and if it really makes a difference, this will just be the way that I live. And so, and I think a lot of our listeners, if they, you know, try it for 30 days, buy the book, get it. And so there's a lot of stuff that you've put out there in your videos, the, you know, glutenfreesociety.org, so where can people go to learn more about your materials? Buy your book and if anyone wants to come to your clinic, just share whatever the heck it is you want to share. Peter because I think it would be really, really helpful to a lot of people.

So if they, yeah, I appreciate it. If they, if they want to go and check my foundation is glutenfreesociety.org as you've mentioned. It's where we do a lot of our information, genetic testing and other just valuable videos and just get informed. That's the place to go. If you want to go pick up a copy of the book, you can go to no grainnopainbook.com and if you want to pick up or if you want to learn more about our clinic and what we do in the clinic, it's drpeterosborne.com and yeah, those are the three kind of hubs that you can get more information.

Yeah, let me also spell Osborne because some people will spell it with an E and without it's Peter P E T E R Osborne O S B O R N E. We will put links@ilovemarketing.com and I'll probably and I will put this episode out another Genius Network podcast and I will put it out in different locations because I think it's really valuable. So I would ask that please share your comments on our podcast@ilovemarketing.com if there's anyone in your life and I can't imagine anyone listening will not be able to identify several people that have pain, that have health problems, that their diet's not working, that they're lethargic. I mean, whatever, share this episode with them. You could really impact and help a life and in some cases save a life by getting people on a certain track. Peter I just thought this was fabulous. What I've read so far of your book is so worth it. So I think everyone that purchases it and reads it and applies it is going to really benefit from it and I hope they give us their feedback. Is there anything else you'd like to share? Any famous last words?

No famous last words. I just want to say thank you very much Joe for having me on this. Wasi had a really good time just chatting with you guys about this. And Dean, I really, I really agree with Joe. I'd love to see you give it a 30 day test drive and see how you feel.

I'd love to do that too.

Yeah.

Because I've known Dean long enough and I know that there are certain pains and certain stuff that he deals with and inflammation and stuff that like that. I again, I'm not a doctor and I'm only saying this as just knowing him. I really think that there's inflammation going on that this following your plan here will eliminate. And I think Dean will feel a lot better, be a lot more clear mentally. And I'm doing the same thing for myself. So yeah, I'm all for it. So it's up to you, Dean. The future of the free world.

We could be grain free buddies.

So awesome. So again, Peter, thank you. And to all of our listeners, Dr. Peter Osborne, the book is no Grain, no pain. Give us your feedback and we will talk to you on the next episode of I love marketing.

So thank you.

Sat.