Should You Date Nate: A Behind-The-Scenes Look At One of The Most Bizarre Dating Profiles Ever - I Love Marketing #307

Recently, copywriter Nate Rifkin wrote a sales letter offering himself as a date to women. He built an entire marketing campaign called should you'd date Nate. What happened next was beyond belief. This is one of the most unusual I Love Marketing Podcast episodes ever. If you'd like access to the full presentation, the show notes, and the special resources for this episode, please visit ilovemarketing.com 307 that's ilovemarketing.com 307.

I'm Dean Jackson.

He'S Joe Polish, and this is the.

I Love Marketing podcast. Hello, this is Joe Polish. And this is going to be one of the more interesting interviews that I've ever done, conversation, whatever you want to call this. Because I'm in a room surrounded by a few of my friends and this very interesting guy by the name of Nate Rifkin, who is in his day job is a copywriter. And so in just a moment, you. I'll ask him some questions. And I've also have, let's see, we've got four men and two women that are in the room, all friends of mine. And I'm going to let you guys remain anonymous. Unless you would like to identify yourself by now. I'll say what you do as an occupation, but I would almost, you know, I want to. This is going to be kind. Two of the people in the room, one of the women is a. Is a doctor and one of the guys is a doctor. So we've got two doctors in the room and the rest are just entrepreneurs and so.

Just entrepreneurs.

Just entrepreneurs.

Nice.

What do you mean that's not nice? Okay, yeah, from the doctor, we have to hear this. Right? So here's the thing, and I want to preface this by saying I'm intrigued by what, Nate, you have accomplished and what you've created here. And in no way, shape or form am I going to endorse without going through what you actually did here because people could take this out of context. And of course, my job and goal is to help people with their marketing and to help people that struggle with addictions and all the things that I do in between to help small business owners. And I think what we're going to talk about here, there's a lot of single people on the planet. You're one of them. And you actually, we're going to talk about a singles ad, but not just any singles ad, A singles ad that blew up the Internet, got you you tons of hate mail, but also got some very effective response, too. So that being said, let's go into let's talk about you first. Who are you? And then let's go into this thing that you did that is going to be the basis of this conversation.

This thing I did.

It's kind of a long setup. I mean, I'm rambling.

I appreciate it. Thanks for having me on here, Joe. I'm really honored to be here. Yeah, my name's Nate Rifkin. I am a copywriter, mostly in the health market. I've been doing it for 12 years and, you know, I've had a lot of success in that area. Contrast that with my dating life. I'm a complete dork when it comes to women and attracting women. So I was thinking to myself, well, what can I do about this? You know, I don't go to bars. I don't have a huge social, you know, presence. I'm a very introverted guy. I just have a select few close friends. So I was inspired by the copywriter, Gary Halbert, one of the greatest copywriters who ever lived. I actually learned copywriting from reading his newsletters.

Yeah, same here. So we have that in common because Gary was incredible. He's a genius. Crazy and a genius.

So he ran a full page ad in the LA Times a couple decades ago, but the product was selling himself for a date. So I realized that's a cool thing. No one's doing that. Everyone admires Gary for doing that, but no one actually brought that into the modern Internet age. So I decided to do that. I realized that by writing an online profile on just a regular dating site, I was just another guy. I was just blending in. Even if I wrote it really well. And I wanted to do something bold, I wanted to do something big. And I just wanted to see. Became obsessed with this. I wanted to see what would happen if I put my best foot forward as a writer to see if I could attract the right woman. So I spent. This was by far the most difficult sales letter I ever wrote in my life. Both because, number one, it's not the usual audience I'm writing to. I'm used to writing to people who are interested in health products. It's very transactional. It's like, I got this great product and here's the price. But then I'm like, how do I write something to attract a woman my age? Because generating chemistry like that is not quite the same as selling. Some people might argue with that. I totally disagree. It is not the same as just transactional selling. And the other part that made it so difficult was it really just brought up a Lot of my own self image. Can I talk about myself as an attractive man? It was a really hard process. So I started writing it. Maybe times fuzzy, but it's like two or three years ago, back when I was living in Baltimore and my goal was this. I was just like thinking to myself, how do I do it? And I realized, okay, I only want, I don't want to date a ton of women. I just want one really great match for me and I'm a really freaking weird guy. So I realized, you know what?

Yeah, we've had lunch together today. We've spent a little bit of time. I could totally endorse that.

Yeah, thank you. Than thank you. Social proof. I am weird. So I'm like, you know, I'm not trying to get the highest response, but I want one response from the right person. So I realized I'm going to take the approach with like kind of a crazy controversial guru would take in a business, like a personality based business. It's like, you may hate me, you might love me, but you can't ignore me. You've got a strong opinion on me either way and I'm that kind of guy. So it was a fit. So I started writing and I drew a lot of inspiration from Gary's ad and he talks about himself and then he talks about what he does and does not want. So I realized when I looked at my past, I have a lot of failure in my past. I dropped out of college. I used to have crippling depression, I went through a bankruptcy. So I realized this is all kind of an interesting hero's journey that I've been on because now I'm a lot better. I'm happy I have a thriving business and all without going the traditional path of getting a college degree or anything like that. So I realized I can talk about my accomplishments and just show that, look, I came from these beginnings. I'm not just bragging about what I have. It's kind of a cool story you could get behind. So I wrote all about that and I started out with, if you're just interested in another guy who's boring or doesn't listen and you want someone who truly cherishes you for you and loves to communicate and wants to travel the world, this is going to be a letter that might change your life.

Should we actually give out the website or where people can read this in case they want to read it and then come back and listen to this or should we just leave that for later?

Well, what if when this is posted, the link can be right below so people can be reviewing this. And you could do that, right? Yeah. Okay, perfect. So I can supply. It's not indexed, but I do have a link for posterity where you can actually look through this if you want. I've got it memorized so I can go through the letter and people can look and verify, but I can just talk about it too.

Yeah. And if you guys want to read any of the.

Yeah, okay. So I started out with your. You know, the headline is kind of an attention grabber. It's like me offering a free vacation. And that wasn't my idea. It was the idea of the company I worked with to help advertise this. Because they're like, we got to make this like a news story. Like something eye catching, like man offers, single man offers free vacation. Going on a date. It's just, it was just to get someone to click on this. So that's all. Yeah, so that's all it was. It was attention grabbing. So then it just goes in your standard, like if you're a single gal and you're interested in this and this and this, this is going to be a life changing letter. So I talk about myself and immediately I segue into why you should not date me. Because I realize this is a cool way to present myself but without being boring and while filtering out people who are not a match for me. So I talk about don't date me because I used to be a workaholic. At first I said I was a workaholic. But I got some feedback from a lot of people who are just like, don't say you're a workaholic. You're not, first of all, you're not anymore. And that's such a huge turn off. So like I'm a former workaholic, but I've been out of the social loop for so long. I'm an introvert. I don't party, so I'm kind of a nerd. So I went through all these reasons why I'm a bad candidate for a date. Now on one level, I really am filtering out people who are not a match for me. But on a deeper level, I was thinking a woman reading this might be like, you know, I'm pretty career driven myself. I'm kind of introvert myself. These so called flaws don't sound so bad. In fact, it's kind of stuff I can relate to. So that was the first part. And then I go into more of my story to really humanize myself and show I've struggled and at the very least, it's an entertaining story. And whenever you're writing a promotion, at the very least, you just want to be interesting just to get some eyeballs on it. I mean, my biggest concern before I launched this was I just didn't think anyone would really care that much. I had no idea what would happen eventually. So then after that, I talk about what I do and do not want in a woman. And Gary Halbert did the same thing, and he made it really funny. So I tried to sort of inject as much humor as possible. And the whole thing was written kind of tongue in cheek. It's like, I have these funny photos of, like, guys doing drugs. They got Santa Claus smoking a joint. And basically I'm just saying I live a healthy, kind of low key, boring lifestyle and I want someone who does the same. I also included a photo of me dressed up as a. It's with a lab coat. Now, here's an interesting story about testing. I had that on a Tinder profile and I showed it to some women in Manhattan, these very fun, smart, beautiful women. And I asked them, what do you think of my Tinder profile? And all of them said, you know, what we like best was that funny photo of you in the lab coat saying, you're not a doctor, but you can play doctor on tv or something like that. That's good. So I'm like, so that was a good little test. So I included that in the final one because I got some positive feedback. So I went all out. I'm like, if I'm going to show this ad all over the place, I really want to get specific. So I did taboo stuff. I talk about politics. I didn't hold back. I go into all of that and I kind of express what I want to do with my life. And then at the very end, I just give some basics on physical appearance. I think I mentioned age range at the top, and then at the very bottom, I make sure it's super easy to take the next step. So I included a form someone could fill out, like an online little thing. You just type right in and click a button. And at the very end, I also, to close the loop on the whole vacation deal, I say, hey, here's my Gmail in your subjects line. Put take me to wherever you want to go and then write about yourself, et cetera, et cetera. And I did that because you'll love this. Back when I was doing direct mail and I did a little direct mail for nutritional supplements, I always thought to myself, you know, whenever someone lists an 800 number and says, call us now to order your product. It's like, if I want to call, I don't know what to say. The operator is like, hello, this is Such and Such Incorporated. How can I help you? It's like, can I buy something? So in my direct mail pieces, I wrote call 1-800-669- et cetera, et cetera, et cetera. And when the friendly operator answers, say, I would like to order a bottle of such and such fish oil, please. Because I just don't want to be difficult, you know? And then my customer service would let me know. They'd be like, nate, all these customers are calling us and they're all saying the exact same sentence. First thing, I'm like, yeah, it's because I'm just making it easy for them. So here's a little direct mail tip. So I made sure to do that same thing here. I remember back in the day, match.com you have to write a subject line to all the emails you send out to men or women. And they got rid of that. And I think that's why, because you have to come up with a subject line. Anyway, that's my little tangent on stuff. I wanted to give you a little marketing stuff.

So that's. No, that was actually quite useful. I mean, even what you just said about the what to say, that little step makes all the difference. Just for the listeners here, you're not observing this right now, but I've been fidgeting around here because I had a pen that happened to have ink dripping off of it. And we've hijacked a speaker's room because I was at the speaker at this conference we're at in order to do this. And I'm getting ink all over myself right now. And I've got our Dr. Fred, who's going to remain anonymous, who's kind of pointed out that I've ink on my lip and I'm looking like a complete idiot. So this has got to be one of the most ridiculous things.

I think now that you can write an ad, now that you feel like an embarrassed.

Who else wants to spill ink all over the place and get.

Now here's the thing, though, is I have written recently a singles ad and I was going to do. Yeah, and I let you read it yesterday. And it's interesting that this whole thing is kind of, you know, happening right now because I was going to do a interview with Eben Pagan, my buddy who started one of the largest online dating advice businesses in the world. Probably the biggest. And his wife, Annie Lala, who's a love coach and who's amazing. I've had her speak at my Genius Network. I've had both of them actually speak at Genius Network. So it's interesting to see these different perspectives that you can use marketing for anything. I mean, people are like the marketing industry, it's, well, it's not even an industry. It's like everything. You use marketing to attract, you know, your lover, you can use it to attract a client, a patient, a prospect. You can use it for a non profit. You can use marketing anywhere. So this is just another way of how. Using words and how, you know, because I think this is one of, if done right, this is one of the best ways to do no rejection dating to actually not get rejected. Because of how you frame it. Now you can get rejected. I'm not saying you won't get rejected, but I'm getting rejected physically meet the right person.

You know, by the time it gets around to, you know, you're actually taking time out of your day, the other person is taking time out of the day. There's already like a great connection.

Yeah, yeah.

Now you'll get some not quite rejection, but as I learned, you'll get. Your life will change significantly with the amount of people you upset. But so anyway, unless you had a. I could move on to the traffic driving part.

Well, listen, did you want to say anything?

I thought it was really interesting. This almost seems like a sales funnel. So you're. By the time somebody gets to the end of it, assuming they don't want to punch you or anything else. So now they are pre qualified, pre interested in your offer. I think it seems like great marketing.

Thank you.

By the time you're getting it to somebody who might be wanting to click on and see, say where they're gonna go.

Yeah, no, it's a great idea. I love it. It's so much better than the regular swiping with the quick burst. There's so much qualification in it. And at the same time I could see that kind of see that hate mail situation.

Yeah, I could go into it and I can too. So I can go into that.

Well, you guys are both officially millennials, right?

Yes.

Yeah, Yeah.

I mean, I'm no longer in that highly esteemed group called millennials, but. Okay. Okay, so let's go into. I like what you're discussing so far.

And then we'll get into the response. So I realized that the perfect way to get people to see this website of mine is Facebook Traffic, because you can select in a local area and of course I want to meet someone ideally with where I live. And you could select by interest. So I can select by interest in health. I can select by interest in self development. It was really cool. So I worked with the company. I'm no expert on Facebook at all. So I worked with a company to do that and they helped me out with the selections and all that. And then, I mean, we did something really, really cool. I cannot take any credit for this, but it's something. It's one of those things where it's just like, ah. I don't want to reveal this too much because it might be pretty juicy. We did a consult with Digital Marketer and it was for some other businesses of mine, but I had to show this website. I had not launched it yet. I was about to, and we talked and we're just like, you know, we're concerned about compliance issues because it's not a Facebook compliant page. I mean, it's kind of funny because it doesn't sell anything, but there's no links. It's just a straight sales letter. It's exactly the kind of thing Facebook doesn't like. And they could classify it as a dating offer. Now, maybe they wouldn't care. But we were worried and I didn't want to get shut down. So at first we're going to drive traffic to a compliant blog post and then go to the site. But Digital Marketer had a genius idea, and it was Molly Pittman, by the way. Specifically, she said, do a press release, write a press release, send it out and drive Facebook traffic to the press release. And specifically, if a news site picks it up, drive it to the news site. What could be more compliant and authoritative than a news article about my site? So that's one of those things. I'm like, oh, I don't want to give that away, but what the heck, take it and prosper with it. So it was pretty cool. So I wrote a press release and I recommend the company send to press send. And then it's the number two press dot com. I don't get anything out of that, but they're just really awesome to work with and they've got great reach. So we geared everything up. I wrote a bunch of crazy Facebook ads, which was really easy for this project. I just took stuff from my basically. And by the way, my technique for writing ads for a promo is I scan down and I just draw out the most weird parts and I make an ad out of that. So I talked about this guy wrote this dating profile. He mentions, I didn't know I was pregnant, Celebrity edition. He brings up zombies, and he's a capitalist pig.

So.

So I just drew out all the most inflammatory, weird parts of my promo and just wrote an ad like that, as if I was a little reporter just being like, look at what this guy did. Denver man launches most bizarre singles website selling itself ever. So it was something like that. So we sent out the press release. Once it got picked up, we grabbed a URL. It was like some San Diego news site or something. It looked pretty good. And then the company I was working with launched the Facebook ad campaign, driving traffic to the press release. Now, here's what made it even more amazing. And I cannot take any credit for this. The Facebook company, they realized we're not just going to, like, run ads to, like, single women in your area. We're going to run ads to media companies to the same funnel, because when they see that ad, they're going to want us. They're going to be curious about it. Newspapers, magazines, television stations, we targeted them in our advertising. Yeah, yeah, I could see the wheels. Okay. Yeah. Maybe we should delete this part of it. I'm not sure. But isn't that. Oh, my God. I never thought of that before. So it's amazing what you can do with targeted Facebook advertising. Yeah, yeah. They're taking notes. We'll give you guys one week to do this before we. Before we air this interview. After this, we're signing a contract. Okay. Okay. Yeah. Non disclosure up. So we launched it. And let me give you some of the big numbers. First.

We.

In the space of like seven days, something like that. It was something like a week. Time got pretty fuzzy for me because this is pretty bizarre, stressful time in my life. We got a quarter million hits to the site. I only spent a little over 800 bucks in Facebook ads. I mean, it was nothing for this kind of campaign. I ended up getting over 1000 messages of hate mail, and I saved them. I'm going to post all of them in one big blog post or something and print them out. Make art out of it or something like that. Now, before. Now I'm a copyright, so I got teased before I give the real results that people are all curious about. Do you have any questions so far?

Okay, so with. And I'll let you guys. If you have any questions. When all this backlash started happening, and so we might hear background noise because we snuck into a speaker's room and then I decided to hijack it with the help of some of our friends that work for this organization to put a sign outside that says don't come in. So I think we're going to. The zombies are going to be trying to break down the door.

I specifically said no zombies in my ad.

Yeah, that's why I'm bringing it up. So the. How did the backlash make you feel psychologically? I mean, how did it, did it mess with you? I mean, what did you experience with that? Because, you know, look, we don't know each other very well. You don't strike me as a person that is a jerk. And you genuinely wanted to meet someone to, you know, have a partner. And you wrote things in an ad that if someone that could be taken anyway and people can respond and think, oh, you know, you're. You're an asshole, you're a jerk, you're whatever. So people manufacture meaning out of words.

Yeah.

And so how did you, I mean, how did you cope with that on a psychological level? I mean, this may sound like a, a self help sort of session, but I'm curious.

It was stressful. I thought I was prepared and I'm a pretty weird guy. So I do kind of have that sort of kind of tilt on life versus like, hey, you know, people have their opinions. You know, I can be a public figure.

It's okay.

It was very stressful because an interesting dynamic occurred where all the hatred and all the mockery making fun of me was public and sent my way. Because I really was just monitoring this email address myself. Because in my ad I say, hey, look, send it straight to me. It's a private communication. It wasn't like I had this company behind it, it was me. Privately, there's a lot of support. But of course it's an interesting view of our culture, especially the Internet culture. The people that were making fun of me and hating on me really had the spotlight because anyone who supported me or thought it was a good idea wisely were kind of quiet about it because why would they want to become a target? Why would they want to start an argument online? So it was. So I got a lot of private support, which is really dear to me, and it was really helpful, but it was extremely stressful. I specifically remember the first night when it really started to go viral. My mistake was I was sitting in my apartment just kind of checking my own email by myself. The sun had set and I just could see the gmail popping every 60 seconds with some bad message popped up. I think there's something the human brain is just not designed to handle that sort of thing. It gives you this very visceral reaction, and you start to get paranoid. You start to get very anxious. And so I'm like, nate, stop. Get up, get out the door. Go walk around in real life. I closed my computer, I unplugged my modem, I took a book, I walked to downtown Denver, and I just sat and I looked at, you know, the mountains as much as I could see them because it was at night. I just sat there, I read a little bit, and then I walked down to 16th Street Mall, which anyone in Denver, that's sort of like the main drag. It's like an outdoor mall. So I started walking down that just kind of basked. Basked in the anonymity, actually. It was really pleasant. It was just people were nice. That's the real world. And then the next morning, and I went straight to bed without checking my Internet. So anyone who is dealing with any kind of bullying online or something like that, that I think is key, just unplug. Go remind yourself what real life is. So then I realized I got to keep doing that. I knew the next morning I should probably check the email again. So I'm like, nate, just get some work done, and don't you dare check it until you go to a coffee shop.

Okay, we're going to take a break here for a moment and move to another room where we will not. We will have more quiet. Okay, now, this is kind of funny. We are now in a completely different room. We've had to actually relocate to a different location in order to. But we got a nice view here in downtown LA. So were you going to say something anonymous?

Dr. Well, actually, it was telling me. I really appreciated his strategy because bullying is a very, very real thing, and it happens in person. And now with the digital age, I know you're a millennial, so you're not older than the Internet, but for those of us who are older than the Internet, it's a real thing. The second you put yourself out there, instantly somebody wants to tear you down. I don't understand what it is about people that they want to do that, but that's what happens. And you took an extremely healthy approach to that. You closed the computer and interacted with real life. And I was just in the background. I'm like, oh, yeah, thumbs up. That's an amazing strategy. That's a really good message and something that we all need to do a little bit more often. We get too wrapped up in just this digital world and checking how many people have bought our product, and you're just refresh, refresh, refresh. You need to just go outside and connect with a real human.

No, that was actually really good advice. Now to play devil's advocate. What if you're a jerk? What if what you're writing about is, like, truly. I mean, you know, let's just play for a minute that, oh, you know, all you care about is, like, meeting some woman, sleeping with, you know, whatever things that they're saying about you. Like, how did you process that? So you kind of checked out. You were checking, you know, the next day, you didn't check your email.

I mean, well, I did. I did, but I did.

Well, I mean, not right as soon as you wake up.

No, not. I made sure to get something done that day. And then I went to a coffee shop outside in public to show, okay, I'm not like a troll that's being hunted down, you know? Yeah, exactly. I had to hold it in. And that's when I opened my email inbox and saw, like, 300 unread messages, which is incredible. I mean, for a marketer, it's like, this is a weird issue to have. Usually as marketers, we're, like, trying. It's like, oh, man, I hope I get some attention. I hope I get some sales. And now that realize this thing had taken on a life of its own. One of the emails was from the Dr. Phil show. They called me twice. It was like, okay, this is official now. I'm officially on the map in a big way. Okay, so. But let's cover the. Okay, so I brought up the hate mail. Let me answer your question head on. There were some legit gripes people had with my ad. More than gripes. I mean, there are some legitimate. That's just the first word that came to my mind. It's like, there's some legitimate criticism of my ad, where looking back, I'm like, yep, I wish I had communicated that better. I wish I'd done things differently. There was, like, two major ones where I was like, yeah, you got me. I screwed that up. Most of it I wrote in a purposely inflammatory way. And I'm so glad that I upset all the people that apparently don't like me because I'm a libertarian. I love that. I love that people are upset at me because I'm an entrepreneur and I love natural health supplements.

I love that.

Now, I made two massive mistakes in the copy. The first one was where I mention what I'm looking for in the way a woman looks. When I mentioned When I got to physical attributes, I screwed that up. I got a lot of hate mail, but I got some legitimate criticism that was not hating on me. They were just like, look, here's how I screwed this up. And it was true. They said, look, you wrote that you wanted photos. That's all you need to say. And I realized that my interpretation was when I list out the physical requirements, at best, I'm just being redundant at best. And that's not what I don't think it was. At best. What really happened was I was turning off people who otherwise would not have cared because I was handling a touchy subject in a very ham handed sort of way. I could just said, hey, send photos, you know what I look like. It's only fair that I know what you look like. And then any sort of preference I have, I could have handled that privately and not just mention it on the Internet. I didn't want to make anyone feel bad. Now we could have a debate on whether or not it's someone else's responsibility, how they feel about what I say. They could just ignore me. But we could have that debate. But the point is, I said it. I said, I want a woman with a slim waist and stuff like that. And I wish I hadn't because I didn't need to. And if I made someone feel bad, that wasn't my intention. This whole thing, even the most inflammatory things I said, it was all very tongue in cheek and I didn't get that across well enough. It was all very tongue in cheek. Because anyone who's met me, if you're listening to me now, I'm pretty much just a goofy, weird guy and I say a lot of stupid stuff all the time. So when I made this website, I was like, really? The woman I'm trying to talk to, who's really a match for me would laugh with me at this joke. Because the whole thing is just. You cannot help but laugh at it. It is ridiculous what I'm doing. Most of the population would be laughing at me, but I was looking for that woman who would be laughing with me and realize, take a step back and be like, this is the goofiest thing in the world. But I love it. I don't even agree with half the stuff you say, but I love the fact that you're saying it. So there's a lot of it where it's like, I got a lot of bad PR and I was just like, yes. Oh, you're just falling forward. Look at you making fun of me for talking about My political beliefs or you think I'm a loser because I wrote this ad. So I love that. When the word started spreading on that, I thought it was great. It was exactly what I planned. But I didn't want anyone to actually feel bad. I didn't want to contribute to a culture where people are very feel bad about body image or anything like that. So I don't know if you have any other questions on that, but that's something.

No, no, I just, I. Oh, no.

I had a question about that. So I didn't see. I read your ad and your ad was actually pretty. You could get out of it, that it's humorous and you're being goofy and. Yeah, that's a little bit sensitive topic. But I'm wondering. I didn't see the press release. You drove the initial traffic to. You said you made a very. You took out all the inflammatory pieces and put it in one press release. Do you think you disqualified a lot of the right people and really fed the angry feminist right wing people to go to your ad so you got a bigger flash?

Maybe.

Well, was it more right wing or left wing? That's an interesting thing since you mentioned political or was it kind of like both?

Well, it's hard to tell, but I actually can kind of tell. Wait, let me answer that. So you might. You might be right. I didn't actually think of that. But we don't have the press release in front of us. But essentially it was almost like a reporter wrote about my website. So it wasn't that. That inflammatory because it kind of teased more than anything. It's like this weird dating profile. He mentions politics, he mentions all these weird things about himself. I did mention capitalist pig, but it wasn't. You might be right. You might be right. I mean, this is one of those things where it's like looking back on it, I'm like, you got it. I wish I showed you my strategy beforehand.

Well, it doesn't sound like you presented it like this guy is making a big romantic gesture and he's looking for love in a big way.

I did actually. I did. No, I did. I did do that. So again, I wish the goal was.

To attract a mate and not just attract attention.

Right? No, I wish we had the press release in front of us. I didn't need that. It started out, Denver man launches entire website to meet the woman of his dreams.

So what if everything else was perfect and she read this whole thing and thought you were amazing and hilarious and she was introverted and hardworking, but just A slightly fluffy waist. I mean, would that have disqualified her?

You know, not really. I mean, I, again, I kind of messed this up. I just, I just wanted someone who's like, healthy and look, I. I'm a guy and I have eyes, so I just want someone I'm attracted to.

So, I mean, that's a good line, actually.

Oh, yeah, that's a great line.

Physical, right? And it's okay to. People are attracted to different things and that's okay too.

But I even saying that right now, I'm just like, yep, it would have been better just to say send photos. And then it's just like, anyway. So that was just something that I messed up. So anyway, I can go.

You know, it's interesting though, that's kind of what Gary Halbert did too, though.

He did.

Because when he wrote that, and I.

Know he did it even more extreme. Oh, my God. No, no, actually, yeah. No, Gary, when you can look up his ad online, he said stuff today. He would have people have come after him with pitchforce for what he wrote in that ad. It was. I. I don't even want to say it. I remember what he said. I'll tell you guys afterwards. Oh, so you can look it up. It was so bad. Of course he wrote his. Better than me.

Well, no, his was extremely well written. I mean, it was genius, the model. And he also had a line where he said, when you're running advertising, which I think he wrote about in how to Make Maximum Money in Minimum Time, which is one of the best marketing books ever. He said he had this line, don't worry about offending the dogs when you're trying to attract the foxes. Now, he wasn't talking about it in the context of like the singles ad. He applied that to everything and so that would piss people off. And he said that, you know, if you're. Now here's the thing, though, and this is. And again, I'm not. This is not my worldview on telling people what to do. I'm just repeating what Gary had said. His whole thing was, if you are not willing to offend certain people, you're not going to attract who it is that you're actually looking for. Now, there's different viewpoints and different perspectives about that because I purposely do not do advertising any way, shape or form to offend anyone. Now, at the end of the day, though, everyone gets hate mail. Oprah gets hate mail. Mother Teresa gets hate mail. Every politician gets hate mail. If you're going to go out and just make yourself public, you're going to have people you can be in the self help business and just simply be attacked because there's a segment of the population that do not like people to tell other people or give suggestions or advice or recommendations on how to improve their health, their financial status, their dating life, whatever. So it's kind of like if you're going to go out and do this, be prepared for it. It's just interesting to hear what you went through and how you did it.

We were talking about that during the relocation a little bit and there was this really interesting study where they wrote two different reviews, a positive review and a negative review. And people were to rate the intelligence of the reviewer and they showed a substantial preference for, for the negative review. People perceived that person as much more intelligent, more well informed. There was a whole list of attributes. It was the same writer. So we all tend to have a little bit of that bias toward what the negative type of review is. And we have this weird troll culture. But I think in your thing you were deliberately designing it. If this isn't you, I'm not the right guy for you. So I think you were actually utilizing that to your benefit. I thought it was cool.

Well, thank you. It was. I mean, I really did sort of plan out how this would cause an uproar now. I mean, we talked earlier. It's like there's good and bad inflammatory. Like I had a lot, I planned out a lot of good inflammatory, like stuff that would rile people up and some of it was unintentional. I'm just like, I wish, you know, I wish I hadn't come across that way and I wish I could edit some stuff, but most of it, yeah, you're right. I was just trying to free people.

Out and I did and it worked.

So. But anyway, let me. The things got very interesting. Let me answer your question about like demographics and stuff. So this is kind of segueing into like the real question is what? Well, did it work? Okay, so quarter million views and then I did get a thousand responses of hate mail. I also got like between 2 and 300 positive responses. Just people like, hey, you know, this is good stuff. Don't listen to the haters. You know, this is cool, I hope you find her. But did it work? Did I get responses? The answer is absolutely yes, it did work. I got over 100 responses in that seven day period from women who were just. It was exactly like I was hoping for. And like I wrote the ad. They just like, I read this whole thing. This is funny as Hell, you know, we have a lot in common. Let me tell you about myself and, and, you know, if I'd love to meet. When I first started advertising in the Denver area, It was like 50% hate mail and 50% positive responses from women. I was like, this is amazing. Just 50, 50. This is great. This is the most amazing thing in the world. I received more, more responses than I had in like three years previous of online dating. I was like, oh, my God, this is great. Now what happened was it was, it was all. It was a good result of the fact that I was serving these ads to women who were a match. I mean, they're entrepreneurs and stuff like that. So they're kind of like. It was. They matched exactly what I was saying I wanted in someone and kind of saying, this is what I don't want. So it was like, yes, yes, yes. The whole way down. It's just like, yeah, that's a fit for me. But when it went viral, the ad was now exposed to everyone and people from like 1,000 miles away. So what's easier when you're a thousand miles away to send hate mail or to be a woman? Be like, hey, let's go on a date person who's a thousand miles away. So the ratio of hate mail just went way up because, you know, a lot of women would read it and they may think it's a cool ad, but I'm this guy in another part of the country. Although I did get responses, I went to New York City on a date. Chicago. I mean, yeah, it was.

If you took any of them on the trip. Trip. We've got to get to that.

Oh, yeah, we're getting to that. So because I was talking with a friend of mine, I'm just like, what am I supposed to do? I just fly across the country to go out with someone. My friend's just like, yeah. And then I realized, yeah, why not? This is cool. You know, I want, I want to do this. It's like the, it's like modern day chivalry. It's like before a guy might like, hike across a mountain to come, you know, come meet a woman or something. I'm flying southwest, but Southwest is cool. Your response, Was there any opinion from.

Any other male out there?

I got a lot of emails from males in the marketing industry who were just like, this is so cool. Tell me what's going to happen. So, yeah, I absolutely did. So basically from there, if it was someone local to Denver, I replied. And then as quick as I could meet for coffee or something. Because in person, the dynamic can be very different from online. You might. She might not like me in person just because of my voice tone, my body language or something like that just doesn't click and vice versa. So, long story short, I had more dates than I could. My big issue, quote unquote, became scheduling them. You know, it was really tough, and I was so stressed out about this whole campaign. I almost didn't want to meet anyone. I just wanted to crawl into a hole somewhere. Just like, now I have to go on Introvert.

Exactly.

Oh, it's. It was like, oh, man. But I was like, nate, you gotta do it. This is the whole point. Get out of your comfort zone.

You wanted this, man.

I wanted it. I did.

You need processes to handle the incoming lead.

See, she's a junior.

Oh, my God.

Better spreadsheets.

So, anyway, so I forget what else we were gonna cover, but, I mean.

You'Re talking about, like, what makeup of political affiliations or anything along those lines.

Well, here's what's interesting. I talked about how I wrote this to communicate at a certain level where someone would read it and be like, this is bold. This is cool. I like the fact that you're doing this. And that was what really triggered the attraction, or at least just the interest. The women I went out with, it was not like they were all cookie cutter, like, oh, I'm the exact same as you. I'm a libertarian, too. I do this. No, they ran the gamut. And usually we just didn't even talk about politics.

Politics.

But they didn't care, and I didn't care. They just liked the fact that I put myself out there. In fact, actually, one of the women, she's so cool. In her initial email, she wrote, I voted for Bernie Sanders, but don't worry, you can keep your business. I was like, I want to meet you.

You're cool.

So she was awesome. So I was like, I didn't. That's one of those things. Like, I failed to put that across my ad. People thought I was the biggest jerk, but it's like, no, in real life, I mean, I didn't care what your political affiliation was. If you're cool, I want to meet you, and I hope you want to meet me. So. So, yeah, I met all kinds of great people.

Well, have you gone out on second dates? I mean, where are you at with all this? Yep.

Yes.

And now that you put this publicly, how did you address that when you were going out on dates? Because they have to imagine I'm not the Only one going on a date with this guy.

Yeah. So one I have been. And that's a crucial point because a lot of people were just like, I want updates on this. You should be doing this. You should be doing that. I'm like, well, no, I'm going to keep it private.

I mean, the Bachelor episode.

Yeah, that's what a lot of people said. I'm like, no. I mean, I know it'll be kind of disappointing for everyone and make it look like it kind of fizzled out, but it's like, I'm not really going to talk much about what happened. Not many specifics. But in terms of women who met me, they mentioned the Bachelor and all that, and I'm like, look, you're an awesome person. I mean, I'm sure you're going to meet someone no matter what. It's all about who is who clicks. It's not. So they've got guys hitting on them all day. So it's just like, yeah, I'm going on first dates or second dates with other women, but, I mean, I'm gonna click with one person. You might not click with me. So it's a mutual thing. So. And most of them are just like, yeah, of course. Because they're. If they're single, they've probably got some guy calling them up as we're talking, trying to get their attention. So. But so anyway, to really answer a lot of these questions, everyone asks about, well, aren't you running into, like, you got to be careful about gold diggers and stuff like that? Totally has not been an issue. Because, I mean, I've asked enough people about that whole culture. I mean, anyone who's a genuine gold digger, they read what I wrote, and it's like, nope, not a fit. This isn't a guy who's going to be susceptible to that kind of a dynamic. So it just hasn't happened. Everyone I've met understood it was just a funny way to get attention. And we just meet like anyone else and have a good time like anyone else. So I have met again. I want to keep this private, but let me put it this way. You might never see this ad again, or at least maybe not for a very long time. There's not going to be a relaunch or anything like that.

Where's the trim set until you finish.

It with, like, a wedding picture.

I know. Even then, I'm just like, no, you don't want to be in a photo with me.

I want to know where you guys are going. Yeah, where's the trip.

Well, we'll see.

I don't want the paparazzi to show up when I'm there. So one woman, Seriously, there's one woman who actually did cancel on me. She was in a different. She did not live in Denver. She lived in a different state. And she actually had a legitimate point. She's like, look, the kind of. The public nature of this is making me very uncomfortable, et cetera. And she had a legitimate point. I just said, yeah, you're right. I mean, I'm out there. I'm a public figure, and I'm a marketer. This isn't going away was planned. I mean, I'm gonna do other stunts probably. So if you don't know, if you don't want that. I mean, stunts in different areas of life. Not. Not dating. But she. I told, like, if you don't want that, you're right, we're not a match. But other women, they're also in business themselves, so they think it's neat. They understand the dynamic, and they don't care if I'm a public figure, and they're not. They're not concerned about that sort of thing. Gotcha.

Gotcha.

What else? What, you want some more marketing stuff? I don't know. I'm on a roll.

I'm just curious. What's some of the best feedback that you got? You talked about some of the negative stuff. What do people come up back to? And they were like, yeah, I love this that you wrote about this. Or this is the piece that really spoke to me.

I. Well, let me. You know, it was an interesting dynamic when I was in that coffee shop, and I was really just checking the email when everything blew up. I was in a weird emotional state. It did not help that I just downed this cold brewed coffee. So I probably had 300 milligrams of caffeine coursing through my system. So it's like I was, like, spasmatically, like, selecting all the hate mail and moving into a folder. And, like, as quickly as possible. They probably. Everyone in the coffee shop is probably like, what's this guy on? Coffee. Colorado. Yeah, Colorado. It's obviously, he's on the wrong stuff.

Yeah.

So, but then I then that narrowed it down to genuine responses and also just positive responses. And some of the best stuff was just like. Just like. It's like, hey, Nate, you know, I'm. I'm outside your demographic because, well, I'm married and I'm a mother, and I'm a mother of three. No, they're just Wishing me well. They're just wishing me well. Yeah, yeah. But they're joking. I see a lot of times like, hey, I'm outside your demographic. I'm a mother too, and I'm also married, so I'm not asking for a date. But, you know, then they tell a little story about, you know, I met my husband online. Actually, it did require getting out of my comfort zone, and I just really love what you're doing and, you know, et cetera. So I guess got into this really weird state. I was just so happy someone was sending me something positive that I would just start replying. And I replied to almost. I'm sure some people slip through the cracks. But I replied to every single person who said something nice and at least thanked them. And I said I was telling them they were so nice to me. I'm just like, your kids have a wonderful mother. I would say things like that. I really meant that. And just things like that. And there'd be some guys who were just saying the same thing, just like, dude, I've always thought about doing this, but I never did. And I'm happily married now, but it's just so cool to see you doing it, doing this. So it was just stuff like that. And the jokes about the rolling pins were fabulous as well.

Yeah, I had a bunch of women stuck out. Absolutely.

Yeah.

Some kind of weird, like, rolling pin fetish.

Yeah, it was. Yes. All right. Secrets out. That was the whole reason why I did this. I just needed to find somebody who.

Would wield a rolling pin.

Yeah, you cannot select that on Facebook ads. They're not that granular. It's like, rolling pin enthusiast. Where is the target Select.

What the hell?

Feedback for Facebook.

You could Mark Zuckerberg. You listening? You listening, buddy? I know he's into that stuff too, so I think he just doesn't want to give himself away. So it was stuff like that. And even women who were, like, interested in me and asked me out, they would make jokes about, like, I do have a rolling pin. So if you get out of line, so, yeah. But okay. So to close the loop, though, after a week of this, it was just getting so out of control, and I'd received enough responses. I'm just like, okay, I'm. I mean, this is it. I did it, and I wanted to stop this. So here's something interesting. I'll just freely admit this one night, I realized, okay, this is so out of control, but it's kind of unstoppable. And I realized I did have one way I Can stop this. I never really thought about my exit strategy, but I realized something, and it's about the nature of pr. PR is easy when people want to be cruel and hate on you. PR is almost impossible when people realize they're assisting in your career. No one wants to help you make money. No one wants to assist in your career. No one wants to give you PR when they think your top priority is PR generally. So I knew I had an out, and it was a strategic advantage I had. I'm a marketer. I owned my own. The website domain I owned. So Friday morning, I worked with my web guy. We switched out my dating page and put up a squeeze page, saying, basically, is Nate freaking crazy, or did he just figure out the coolest way to meet beautiful women and pulled off the biggest PR stunt of 2017? And then I went into like, yep. And you can go there. You can go there to shouldyou datenate.com to this day, I still have that squeeze page up there. And I'm getting out the of opt ins galore. And I'm just like. And I tell the story. Yeah, yeah, she's in.

That's awesome.

You gotta sign up. You can get in after. So I tell the story. I'm like, you know, you're.

Is this just a clever ploy to get on my podcast and try to, like, get opt ins?

Absolutely. That's how we end up here.

There are less stressful ways to get on a podcast. No, no, you. You bring up. You bring. You bring up a very good point, actually, because when I switched it out, people said, oh, you coward. This was all a stunt. You're just trying to get out of this. And I'm thinking to myself, yeah, that kind of was a trick I pulled to get out of this. Because if you're like, well, were you trying to meet her or not? I'm like, yeah, I was. But I also. I had this ace up my sleeve. I had to play it because it was getting out of control. And on the squeeze page, I write, I really was doing this to meet someone. But it was a stunt. It was a stunt to meet someone. Only a crazy marketer like me could actually say that because it was true. I told all these bullets, like, how I got a quarter million hits and spending like 500, 800 bucks. And at the bottom, I tell people how they opt in. As soon as I put that up that morning, I was like, the site got on buzzfeed and all this stuff. I mean, I had E Online published articles about me. So I knew I just knew when I made the switch, all that was going to shut off, because no major media publisher wants to publish something realizing they're sending traffic to a PR stunt. And it was true. It pretty much did die off real quick. But, I mean, people were getting bored anyway, so that's when it ended. And essentially from there, I've got some folks interested in how I did the whole thing. So I'm writing about that, I'm blogging about that, and since then, going on some fun dates.

Wow. Wow. So how has this affected you in ways that you'd never anticipated?

The stress from getting so many people to insult me and mock me and say hateful things about me, it just put me through a lot of stress. You get paranoid. You get paranoid. And I mean, by definition, if it's paranoid, it's illogical. It's not rational. So I can't give you rational things I was paranoid about. But you get that feeling like the world might crumble. Like, the whole time I was scared of getting that email message from the guy helping me with Facebook traffic or someone else saying, like, oh, Nate, there's something you got to jump on. Like, it was about to get 10 times worse. I don't know what that was. It was the boogeyman. But I was really paranoid about that. And I'm writing about how I dealt with that because I think I came up with some strategies like getting outside and all that, to thwart all that and keep it from sort of kind of ruining my brain. I really found out that my friends are really good friends, and the people I work with are really great people because they send me messages of support. A lot of people aren't as lucky as me. They're not marketers. They have regular jobs, and this can really mess with their life. Me, I got nothing to complain about. My life is fine. I just have a trash reputation online. But if you don't look on the Internet and you just walk around all day, my life is great. It's just all my mindset I had to take care of, so there's that. And it made me appreciate just sort of real life off the Internet much better. And it also just kind of gave me this kind of funny humbleness where before I was just, like, concerned about my online reputation, then I was embarrassed about it. Now I'm just ending every conversation like, hey, Google me. You'll find out some crazy stuff. When you Google me, it gets a laugh. And people are like, oh, my God, I gotta find. Every woman I talk to is like, you gotta look up some crazy stuff on me. Go, go, go on Google. Look up. And so that's. That's sort of the biggest changes. I've kind of, like. It's almost like smashed away some kind of residual ego I was holding on to, because now I kind of hit rock bottom. So it's just like, all right, well, I could only go up from here.

There's something really freeing about sharing those. I mean, we're all trying to hide all of our personal stuff and keep it in. We're like, oh, my gosh.

It's.

Somebody only knew the real me. They wouldn't like me. I mean, Joe's amazing at sharing his life. He's really opened himself up in so many ways, which is inspiring to a ton of people. Like, you know, when you bring it into the light, it's no longer a shadow. And you. You really shared a lot of stuff, and you didn't hold back, and you risk embarrassment. But until you risk something, you don't get something that could be amazing.

Yeah, that's cool. What about you?

You guys want ask any questions? I mean, there's a few more that I got for him or say anything? Anything. Any thoughts?

No.

No.

I. I love that you did that, and I agree with you, because Alison Armstrong goes into that a lot of just. We really try to jump on and hold on, hold everything to ourselves. We're afraid that the right person isn't gonna love us, which is the crazy. Exact opposite. Yeah, let's. Let's trap that person first and then release the crazy. Slowly, Linden. Show awkwardness after they're already committed to us. So it's just. It's a cool way of putting it out there. Joe's favorite thing. Qualify the right people. Disqualify the wrong ones.

No, I mean, look, I think when you go out and try to meet somebody, and it's really interesting because there's a different sort of perspective that people seem to have when you're going to use marketing to meet somebody. But I think makeup is marketing. I think clothes is marketing, I think status, and I think labels, and I think what you do and I. I mean, accessorizing yourself, where you live, how you talk, what you say, where I'm going to take someone on a first date, how I'm going to open up the conversation, be it a pickup line or just saying hello to somebody. I mean, all of this is a way to either open the door, close the door, be appealing. Not be appealing, attract, repel. I mean, it all comes in different forms. So something so important is meeting somebody that you would want to connect with. Because I think at the end of the day, even the people that are doing it in the lousiest ways or unaffected ways, humans want to connect. And I don't think we're built to be alone. And there's a lot of people that are lonely. I mean, I spent a large portion of my life single and alone. And you can work your ass off, you can be a really decent human being, but to just not have companionship. And I'm not trying to make state for you should be married, you should not be married or what it even looks like. The point is, there's someone out there whose dents will fit your dents. There's people out there that you can connect with. Using an intentional, strategic way to do this is great. So I think what we've laid out here, talking about you again, like I said in the beginning, I wanted to be very careful because I didn't want people to misconstrue me as endorsing some sort of trickery or manipulation or whatever. And from everything that I've talked with you about, before we even did this interview, was to just. I don't see any side of you that was intentionally trying to harm anybody. You're just trying to meet somebody. And I think this model can effectively be used for someone to find the love of their life in far better, more effective ways than a lot of people go about with online dating. And here I am, a guy that studied. I've put in the 10,000 hours into learning marketing probably three times. I've spent over 25 years of my life and a couple million dollars learning and studying marketing. And it wasn't until this guy that sold an online dating System well over 15 years ago, it was right in the early stages of the Internet, or at least the Internet applic of this. Like when all the dating gurus, many of who are friends of mine, because I know people in every guru business, you know, and this person, he actually hired me for consulting. And it was supposed to be for one day. And that was back when I was. God, what was I charging? I was on like 6,000 a day or something back then. He ended up hiring me for four days straight. And we would have gone longer had I not had to go do a consultation with Bill Phillips, the Body for Life. I did literally go to California. And during that period of time, we weren't just talking about his online dating system because he also owned another business, too. So it just became this freaking Crazy weird consulting thing that just happened to get stretched out over this period of time. And he wrote an ad for me based on conversations we had, and I didn't even give him permission to do. He literally then ran it on an online thing. And while I was, while I was driving, this is before iPhones existed, I started getting like text messages. And I wasn't even using text back then. I started getting text messages.

Oh, I saw the ad.

It looks right. And I call him, I'm like, dude, did you run that ad?

And he's like, yeah.

I go like. He goes, but I didn't give out your information. I go, you had to. They're freaking. I'm getting like text messages here. And what it. Anyway, so he had a PS thing that said, here's my personal phone. So he did actually do it, but he said, I didn't put that in the ad. He goes, I just put that in the response. So he goes, I went through and picked some, found some women and sent them a personal message that I thought you would find attractive and that you would be into. And I just. And that's how they got here. But what happened? And I was like, well, stop, don't do that. I mean, I was consulting with you. I'm not ready to do this yet. But what happened during that time, because it was literally these messages would come through while I was driving. What occurred to me is like, oh my God, this actually works. You can sift, sort and screen, you can position in every environment. And that's what it got me thinking when I said the term no rejection dating. I actually, I registered that URL nice. Way back then, never did anything with it. But I was like, you know, it's an interesting sort of thing because if you're going to go out and meet someone, like, let's say the worst scenario in a bar, right? You know, you're going to go to a bar, you don't know if they're with someone, you don't know if they're married, you don't know if they have any interest. The same interest you. If you're into yoga, if you have a different political belief, if someone's religious, you're an atheist, you know, none of these things. But when you start writing sales copy, when you start laying it out that way you can cover all of this stuff and you can say. And so I thought to myself, good marketing isn't just the most effective way to make money. It's the most effective way to save time. Because if you simply look at this from a time like how much of our lives do people go out on dates with unqualified people where if you actually wrote it all out, you just wrote it all out, how much of that could be covered in advance? So the key is, and the thing I want to bring back to this conversation, not just my rambling here, is having done all of this and if there's someone here that's listening, because this could be used in very evil ways. I mean, there's a lot you can use marketing, but it's never about marketing, it's about the person. I mean, I always say, you know, you send an asshole to an empowerment seminar, you're going to have an empowered asshole. You send a good shy person to a self confident, you're going to help that person. So people become more of who they are. So with the assumption that someone just wants to meet someone, they're single, they're lonely, they're a good person, they're busy, you know, whatever. And you've already covered a lot of it. I just want to kind of have you dissect. If you were to dissect the ad, what could someone take away from it that they could use to craft their message beyond what we've already discussed?

Yeah, that's a great question. I mean, first of all, I watched the response because this is a new thing for me. I didn't know what I didn't know. My chief concern was is anyone even going to read it. But after the fact, what I figured out was that some of the best parts were just when I laid out my vulnerabilities and talked about what my journey was. I wish I had done more where I just kind of put the spotlight on the positive qualities in the woman I want to meet. It's sort of like you were showing me some things that you were drafting out there.

I should read my.

You make mine look bad. See, because that I think is the more thoughtful approach. And what I wrestled with from the beginning was I can write copy, but am I actually creating chemistry? And I think a lot of the copy I wrote, that's so clever, that's so good about filtering through people. A lot of that I think damaged chemistry that might have otherwise been there. That's sort of the thing about marketing. When you can save all that time and condense your message down. People react to that in very weird ways. You kind of sacrifice some potential connections if you do like that 30 minute VSL or something. But it still works. So it's a judgment call. So I would have Done that. Okay, thanks. So the part about what I want out of a partner, I would have been much, much more just sort of careful about describing how I want someone who's healthy, that doesn't do drugs and stuff like that. I think a lot of people might construe my use of photos the wrong way and I would have completely ignored the part. I would have not written about physical preferences or anything like that. Just ask for a photo. Just ask for some photos. I'm a weird guy. I'm a really strange guy. So the inflammatory approach, actually the inflammatory sort of like love me or hate me approach worked for me really well. And I'm a public marketing guy, so I don't mind being in the spotlight. So that worked for me. Anyone else is doing this, I would really be careful about sticking your neck out there because it might get chopped off and you can't go back. Maybe even stick to online dating sites because it's more socially acceptable to kind of do write interesting eye catching stuff on a dating site because it's like the online version of a bar or a social club where you're expected to. Running ads on Facebook is kind of like running down the street with a drink, just being like, hey, who wants to go on? You know, I was signing up to be ridiculed and I accept that. So I would just caution people, oh, one more thing. Oh, God, of course. Show your ad to women before you publish it. I showed it to like half a dozen women, different women. And I'm just like, look, give me your honest opinion because if you thought this version was bad, you should have seen what I wrote before women took a look at it. Oh, they were just doing line edits like this. And I was just like clicking accept, accept the line edit in Google Docs. But that's my big advice is, sure, talk about your flaws, where you're going in life, what your dreams and desires are. But also always talk about your potential partner in the most positive terms. Don't get into like, I don't want this, I don't want this. Like, I don't do what I did. And the last thing is this. I talked about my two biggest mistakes, or I referred to them. My first was listing physical preferences. My other big one was this. I got some criticism that really hurt because it was just so on point. And it was actually something a female friend asked me before I published this. And I didn't really have a good answer. They're essentially just like, you know, I read this whole thing, but I don't get it. As a woman, I'm not really reading what you would bring to a relationship. And the reason that hurts so much is because I realized the reason I didn't really write about that wasn't because I was ignoring that part. It wasn't because I just forgot. It was because my self image wasn't there. If you were sitting in front of me in person and asked that, I wouldn't have much of an answer for you. So it really was a reflection on where my self image was with dating and attracting women. I just felt that lack of worth and it came through in my ad. So I made up for talking about vacations and traveling and stuff because I was kind of almost trying to cover up this kind of hole I had where it's just like, I'm a good guy. So this is really like holding up a big mirror to you. And be prepared if you don't like what you see in that mirror. And be prepared if you don't like what other people are spewing at you through that mirror.

So this probably was the biggest crash course of personal development that you accidentally signed up for.

It was like a drug free ayahuasca trip. Yeah, it was. It really was. And if I could go back and rewrite parts of my ad again, I've changed a lot in the past couple years, so I would rewrite a bunch of that.

Well, how long, how long ago was this now?

I really wrote the big first draft like two years ago and I just never did anything with it.

And it took you a while just to. Yeah. So from the time we're actually doing this. When did you actually put this out? How many weeks ago was this?

I think it was just like three weeks ago. Three weeks ago? Yeah. I mean, this is very, we're talking very short, very recently right after this whole thing went down.

So this, this, this interview is probably the precursor to the movie and the.

Television show and everything. What genre movie?

I don't know.

And I'm happy to because this whole time when it all went down, I, I believe I was making the right move. I did not edit my site. I didn't try and respond to anything. I just kind of laid low and, and went on dates. So this is my way of just kind of like, all right, here's what happened. Here's where I screwed up. Here's where other people can learn from it and just lay it out there without the marketing.

Yeah.

Are there any big lessons that you learned that you're going to take away into Your supplement writing, is that something that's just. This is so different, but it's so related.

Yeah.

And I think there's something anyone can take away. It is amazing to me how out of like a, I don't know how many, like 15 page long sales letter or whatever that was. It was just a few sentences that I screwed up that really caused. It's the 80, 20 rule. 80% of the hate probably came from those few sentences. So when you're writing to a market that's not, you be so careful about really getting it right. Know your audience really well. And I've run into that in the health market too, because I might be writing to someone who's twice as old as me and I don't dare make assumptions about what they're dealing with versus what I'm dealing with or what I know about them. I get that wrong in the supplement niche and I get a low conversion rate and I lose sales. I get it wrong in the dating niche and I get a lot of hate mail. But fortunately I got some stuff right. So I still got dates. So, yeah, just watch out now. People throw stuff in there. It's never the thing you think about. You might think about it as like, oh, this line is going to be great. This perfectly describes what my market's going through. There might be one little line in your ad that just breaks that rapport and no one's ever going to tell you what it is. Not really. Maybe, maybe you monitor your customer service and find out because maybe they will tell you. But you got to hunt through and be like, is there anything here where if my target audience is reading that, they're just going to have this moment like this. The curtain comes down and they wake up and they're just like, oh my God, this guy's an idiot. So that can happen in any market and it only takes one sentence. Not to make you too paranoid.

But yeah, just don't get it wrong.

Yeah, just don't ever get it wrong.

No mistakes.

But yeah. And it's very possible to do a really great job.

Just.

Just know your market. Just know them.

Yeah. Really great.

So did you. I feel like you didn't actually completely answer the question. Are you dating just one person now?

Like, I've. The most I've gone on is.

See how she's trying to pry here. You're trying to be private here and she's just trying to.

Yeah, I'm not asking for like a name and address. I was just curious.

That's next. Yeah, we gotta Work on the form.

But until she asks you again that.

It'S no, with the conclusion that you were trying to find love, and that's a. That's a beautiful thing, and everybody should have that and find that. I was just hoping that you did. I was just excited about this. You said this was your hero's journey at the beginning of this, and so I just wanted to know.

Three weeks now.

Come on. She might be listening to this. So it's. It's still very early on, and I'm feeling like I might have met someone, but I, of course, don't want to scare her off if she's.

That's a cute smile. I can tell what that means. Okay.

Look at him.

He's blushing. I love it. All right. That's awesome. That's my answer right there. I wish this was on video.

Well, it's. Not to get too sappy on you, but it's like I said in my ad, all the hate I deal with and everything I go against or struggle against here in this whole thing will be worth it if I meet that one person. And I still believe that.

That is awesome. That is awesome.

So.

Wow. I mean, such a romantic. Yeah.

This is on comedy.

Hey, you can write a love story. You can write a comedy. You can write a tragedy. You can write a horror story. I mean, we get up every day. What's that?

He said no zombies, so I'm not writing that.

Yeah. Now people need to go and read this damn ad, Right?

Well, I can. I mean, you'll.

Go ahead. Just say it if you have it memorized. Or we can give it up for any. In case someone's driving or something. Something.

Oh, well, if they're driving, they shouldn't be on the Internet, but you'll have a blow. It's too long to like, or. Unless you have it up there and the link might change, but.

And we'll put it on ilovemarketing.com and so you can. You can look up Nate and we'll.

Yeah.

How do you spell your last name?

R, I, F, K, I, N. And. Oh, is this part where I get to, like, plug my wares? This is the whole reason why I did this. No, go ahead, Go ahead. I have a blog@naterifkin.com and I just write about marketing and stuff. Oh, that was my big plug. And if you go to shouldyoudatenate.com. that's where it used to be, but now it's that squeeze page where I go into more detail about how I did this.

Yeah. So assuming this other person that you're potentially dating, this doesn't work out, you're going to get some. Because I'll tell you, some of the most amazing women on the planet listen to. I Love marketing.

Oh, cool. Amazing people in general. I love it. I mean, I attended your first I Love Marketing event back in the day. I mean, before. Oh, my. How long ago was that?

This is a while back.

It's like 2012, but yeah. So, Nate, rivkin.com, it's just a blog and I think it's at least entertaining. I talk about how I went bankrupt, how I was a sign spinner, I unloaded trucks, all kinds of crazy stuff I talk about there. So I hope people enjoy it.

Most influential books that you've read recently.

The one thing which, if you're a copywriter, read that I'm in the middle of the. Of deep work right now. And that is fascinating.

Again, I'm interviewing Cal Newport for this podcast. Amazing. Four days from today from the time we're actually recording this. Yeah, it's an unbelievable book.

And especially, yeah, especially if it's an unbelievable book. If you are a copywriter, just stop everything right now and go read that. And I don't really recommend much copywriting stuff, but that thing is just like, oh, perfect for that, for that profession. Even.

His first book, so Good They Can't Ignore you, is a fantastic book for Cal Newport. C A L Newport.

Yeah. And I gotta give a shout out, of course, the Gary Halbert Letter. Not really a book, but you can find the newsletter archives online. And that allowed me to write this crazy ad. For better or for worse. I learned copywriting just from reading his materials. So that would always be my number one recommendation. Recommendation for stuff to read.

Yeah. And Gary was how I first got introduced into direct response marketing. He, you know, became a very close friend of mine. And you either loved Gary or hated him because that guy was polarizing as hell and smart as hell. And there's a lot of evil geniuses that are great writers, I think. You know, actually, here's what's kind of funny, Nate. Not that this has anything to do with what we were just talking about. It's a sort of like the more brilliant the writer that I meet, the more weird they are. Like, I have met some. I mean, I know some very famous, you know, some of the biggest writers on the planet that are still alive that I've met. And there's. It's interesting, I mean, writers. Now, of course, there's all kinds of different people in all kinds of different areas. There's just some real quirkiness with people that can weave together words, these mad geniuses and whatnot. And so for marketing, for someone that just wants to learn other marketing, I mean, you talked about deep work. I mean, what are some of the classics that you've read? Because Halbert was such an advocate of scientific advertising and Ogilvy and all of the. Is there any other books that have just made a profound impact on your thinking?

I'm going to go kind of. I'm just going to talk about what worked for me. Kind of go against the grain. I don't have any big marketing, like kind of copywriting books to recommend. I just learn from Gary Halbert and then from there just dive into like testing your stuff and clicking on ads online. I'm just being honest, like, no, no, no. And I love hearing I don't have a big library.

Hey, whatever you can attribute to what has allowed you to do what you do, that's what I want to hear. Yep. What about your. How do you go about. Because we're putting this on. I love marketing. We might as well talk about marketing.

Sure.

What's your process? Like, how many hours a day do you write? Do you do it every day? Do you do it? I mean, do you have some formula? Yeah, every day.

The formula is every day. Because that's just who I am. It's kind of like when they talk about the one thing or deep work. I'm a writer. I cannot not write. I do it every day. I get up in the morning and writing is the first thing I do. And then I'll do some meditation or something like a standing meditation, something more physical. And then I'll go right back to writing and I'll do those two sessions. And only after I'm done will I have coffee or plug in my modem. Because my modem and Internet has been off the whole time. You cannot reach me until I do.

So you don't even have wireless. You say modem?

Yeah. It's like I could not connect within five minutes even if I tried until my two writing sessions are done. And that's what keeps me, you know, prolific enough to make a career out of this. And then I'll dive in and start checking email and all that. And then I'll do like a similar afternoon writing session. And it is daily. And it's not like I'm working like this hundred hour work week. It's daily. But I love it. And you know, I can my Afternoons are pretty free. But yeah, I'm a morning guy. That's when my creative energy is there and that's when my focus is very uncluttered by the necessitudes of life. So, yeah, love it.

Any final words from anyone here?

We want updates. Absolutely.

All right, well, at naterufkin.com, there's a perfect plug for my blog. That's where we get your updates.

Really? High five. For real.

Thank you. Thank you so much.

That is amazing. Everybody should be more open and honest.

Thank you.

Appreciate it.

Yeah. So my final words are what you just heard here. There's a lot of applicability in probably many areas of life on how you can learn the lessons, what to do and what not to do and more. So getting out of your comfort zone, I think is a good one. I think the whole notion of making the distinction between the real world and this world of the Internet, where more and more society is staring at screens, and I thought that was really great advice. And finally, just go and do good. Do good in the world. Go and be an awesome, amazing human. And if you're lonely and you really want a partner, you might want to try something different because this is a perfect time to use the Einstein definition of insanity is doing the same things over and over again and expecting different results. So if you're not where you want to be, then take some sort of action. And I think this whole thing is really just taking massive action. And that's what you did. And so, yeah. So I appreciate you sharing all of this stuff and my listeners love to hear your comments on this. And I'm going to do a follow up on because this came in an interesting time. I actually have a. I have a life right now where I'm friends with almost every person that I have dated in the last 17 years. And they're friends with each other, many of them. And so I have somehow managed to not screw that up. And that doesn't mean that, you know, I think people are better served. And I heard a friend of mine, she said, you know, we measure success in relationships by duration instead of depth. And you can have a really deep, amazing relationship with someone for a short period of time, or you can be married for 30 years in a love loveless marriage, you know, but people like, oh, you're successful because you've been married X number of years. And it's an interesting sort of scenario about how we, you know, how we create a criteria of success. So whatever success is for you and whatever it is you want, go out and do it, and you know, it's your life. So you can do a lot with marketing. And I think people don't realize the application of the skill of marketing is everything. It applies to everything. So thank you, Nate.

Thank you, Joe. It's an honor to be on here.

Thanks for listening to this episode of I Love Marketing. If you'd like to learn more about the Genius Network annual event, please visit geniusnetworkevents.com that's geniusnetworkevents dot com if you'd like access to the full interview, the show notes, and the special resources for this episode, please visit ilovemarketing.com 307 that's ilovemarketing.com 307.