The 4-Step Book In A Box Process: How To Turn Your Knowledge Into A Professionally Published Book In Just 15 Hours - I Love Marketing Episode #240

I'm dean jackson, he's joe polish, and.

This is the I love marketing podcast.

Hey everybody, it's Dean Jackson and Joe Polish.

And welcome to I Love Marketing. And this is going to be a fun, I believe, fun and incredibly informative and useful episode because we've got our friend Tucker Max on the line. Tucker, can you hear us?

Well? Yep.

All right.

Awesome.

Almost doesn't seem enough to just say we have Tucker Max. It almost seems like you have to have a precursor to that.

We have to say music in the background or the legend.

The legend, Tucker Max or something.

You have to say something.

D. Can you let the marching band out of the closet and then we'll kind of go. All right, so cool. Let me give the short bio version so. He sounds very professional, which he actually is. So. Tucker Max is currently the CEO of bookinabox, a company that has turned book writing and publishing into a service. He's written three number one New York Times bestsellers, including the iconic bestseller I Hope They Serve Beer in Hell, which is a funny ass book, crazy and whatnot. His books have sold over 3 million copies, been translated into over 30 languages, and are credited with creating a litany genre fratire. He has also had a movie made about his life also called I Hope They Serve Beer in Hell. And for some reason he was nominated to the Time magazine hundred most influential list in 2009. He got a BA from the University of Chicago in 1998, JD from Duke Law in 2001. He currently lives in Austin, Texas with his wife Veronica and son Bishop. And I just had dinner with you and your wife Veronica, just, I don't know, a couple weeks ago when you're out here for Genius Network and you have really had a myriad of very fascinating things happen in your life and you've documented and written about all of it. And so what. What did I not say about you, Tucker, that before we get started into this, it would be good for people to know about you?

I don't know. You know me pretty well. What do you think people should know about me?

Well, I would say that, you know what I've actually told a couple of people is if people only know you from your book, you know, the first one and the crazy shit that you.

Wrote.

Frankly, explicit and vulgar and to many offensive, you would think, like who is this guy? But you know, my knowing of you is you're just a really cool dude and really care about people. Maybe in the past you didn't, I don't know. But you now study Buddhism and you have a wonderful wife and a child and you just seem like an awesome guy. And you're smart as hell because you gave a 10 minute talk at the Genius Network event teaching people how to write books and how to put them together and how to tell their story. And so my thinking of you is you're just a really sharp, smart person that learned how to really position and market yourself and make people laugh and, you know, solo sell millions of books.

I'll tell you that there's proof of my intelligence just on this podcast, is I got you to say all those things about me instead of me saying, lesson number one, write that down.

Lesson number one, when interview and doing media people ask you, what should people know about you? Well, I don't know, what do you think people should know about me? And they're going to say something better than that. Stuff would have sounded completely different if you said it all.

Well, I feel like I want them.

To know is I'm really. I'm really a brilliant guy and I'm really, you know.

Well, Tucker, have you. Are you saying I've been tricked now? Is this, Is this where we're going with all this?

No, no, you haven't been tricked, man. This is. This is the key to relationship building. This is how you connect with people. This guy I met, Joe Polish, taught me a lot about it. You should ask him.

Right?

Right.

Maybe he should write a book. That's what I think of Tucker. What do you think of Tucker?

Yeah, exactly.

All right, well, here, let's just jump into it, then we'll figure out anything else you want to say along the way. So, Tucker, how did you go from graduating from Duke with a law degree to writing insanely hilarious stories online, like the Sushi Pants Story as an example?

The honest answer is that I was a total failure at mobile things and then basically lucked into it. So it's pretty crazy. I got fired from my first job as a lawyer in three weeks. Actually was two days under three weeks. That story's in I hope they serve beer and hell. And so. And I got fired in such a ridiculous way. Basically, I got super drunk at this firm event and, like, took the mic from the managing partner and yelled at a bunch of people and, like, didn't, like, this female partner proposition me, and I turned her down and I told everybody and she's married, right? And so, like, the worst thing you could do, I could have slept with her and been fine, or I could have shut up and been fine, but I turned her down and Told everyone in the firm. And so they fired me in three weeks. Then I went to work for my father, who owned some restaurants in South Florida, and my father fired me from the family business in, like, six months. And so, like, I was. I was not doing well at life. And this was. Maybe I was 26 or 27, and the only thing I was doing well is I was writing emails to my friend about all these stupid things I was doing that were getting me in all kinds of trouble. And my friends will. After my dad fired me, one of my buddies was like, look, man, you're not very good at law, and you're not very good at business, but these emails that you've written are, like, the funniest things I've ever read. And so long. Long story short, I sent a bunch of my emails to publishers and agents, and 100% rejection. And so this was maybe 01 or 02. I put them up on the Internet. This is like back when geocities was a thing, you had to program your own sites in HTML and stuff. And so I basically put up a site that looked like. It looked kind of like Tumblr does now, to be honest. Except obviously it didn't work well. And it just had my stories, and then they kind of caught fire. Especially MTV did this thing on Internet dating, and they filmed me, and for a while, and then that blew my sight up. And then, you know, then book deals, and now here I am on your podcast.

Yeah.

The pinnacle of your career. It accumulates here. You made it. It's all downhill from here.

Well, we're going to try to keep this downloading for many years to come just so we can sustain this accomplishment. No, that's awesome. What caused you to want to write your book? I hope they serve beer in hell. And how did the publishers react? So you got all these things that you're writing online, and this ends up getting turned into a book. So kind of tell us that story. For this reason, there's the curiosity, and in some cases, the morbid curiosity of you and your life and what you've done and how you take this level of content. But the other thing is, you've become very successful doing it. And now you teach. You actually help people that have all kinds of subjects, including very serious subjects that have nothing to do with comedy. How to actually take your process that you've discovered and literally get it out to hundreds of thousands, if not millions of people. But let's start with, why did you write that book? And then how did people react to it. Because if someone listening has never read I Hope They Serve Beer and Hell, it's a pretty insane book.

Well, this is really what I said. Like, I failed a bunch of times, and I lucked into it. This is the luck part, is that I basically wrote down all the things that guys had been doing for decades, but not writing down. That was it. I mean, like, Joe, you probably have. You could go story for story with me and probably ten times as many, But I just wrote them down, you know, And I was the first one to do it. That was basically it, man. I mean, most guys in their 20s or even into their 30s, have stories that are at least somewhat similar to mine, if not better. Like, I have a lot of friends who have way better stories than me. But having great stories is a totally different thing than being able to write them down and actually doing it. And that was. That was. That was the thing, man. I was the first guy to do it, and there was a huge demand for it. And this is. Remember at the beginning of the Internet, you know, this is. This is before MySpace. And so I was one of the first ones to put these things up online for free. Like, really good content online for free, back when, like, the word blogger didn't even exist, you know, I was doing this because. Only because that's. Here's the funny part. No one would publish my stuff as a book. No one would even put it in a magazine like Maxim. Yeah, I remember I somehow finagled a meeting with, like, one of the junior editors at Maxim because I. My assumption was they would love my stuff. And little did I understand how media works. Like, those dudes actually hated me the worst because they were, like, the most jealous of me. The actual people who worked at Maxim, not the readers. And so, like, they, like, totally could not have been more vitriolic in their rejection. And so I had to put my stuff up for free because I had no other option. But it turns out I was way ahead of the cycle. Like, that was going to become the business model of the next century. I just stumbled into it, dude, by blind. Like, it was two blind luck things together. I wrote down stories that no one else was writing down, even though everyone was living them right. And I started giving my content away for free to attract attention and get it. Build an audience before anyone else was doing it. Both of them. I wish I could tell you I was some genius who saw this a decade at a time. That's totally not true. Both of them were essentially luck combined with desperation because I had Nothing else to do. You know, I couldn't be a lawyer, and my dad had fired me, so who the hell was going to hire me?

Yeah, but you've certainly parlayed a lot of chance and a lot of stuff into an actual business. But, you know, I mean, even in my own career, I being a Deborah carpet cleaner, I mean, most of everything that I've accomplished has been bumbling my way through life seeking things out, not because I'm inspired to do it, because I'm literally starving and I needed to figure out how to make things work. But I really paid attention along the way and really strategically tried to apply stuff, which is different than saying, I strategically figured out what the hell I was doing. Because I did. What happened was I would pay attention to what people would respond to. And I think what makes you a great marketer, what makes anyone a really good marketer, is they deal with people at the level at which they respond, and they actually are able to see trends and they see what you see. A bunch of people finding your stuff funny, and it takes off. You figured out how to put content out there that people responded to. And I want to use this as an analogy. Jordan Belfort, the real Wolf of. Of Wall Street. I got introduced to him a couple years before the movie ever came out. And he's just a character, animated, funny. And I interviewed him. My interview with him. We even put on. I love marketing. And I even put a warning beforehand to say, hey, you know, I mean, like, however you use any sort of persuasion techniques has to do with your character and with integrity. Because, you know, I mean, it's all about value creation, at least from our perspectives. And one of the things that he told me when he was in J, he's, like, in jail, and what's he going to do? He needs to figure out how he's going to make a living. And he tells this whole story of the Wolf of Wall Street. But he said he read Bonfires of the Vanity Vanities was one of the books that he read and modeled the writing style. Because it's one thing about telling a story, it's another thing about telling a story in a very compelling, engaging way. And so, like, in your writing process, which I want to ask you about, you know, you write in a very engaging way, as did the Wolf of Wall Street. And because of that, it ended up becoming a best seller. They ended up making a movie out of it. But anyone could have really crazy stories. But how to communicate them and how to tell the story is so critical. So I kind of want to dig into that with you because there's a shit ton of people that listen to our stuff, but and have really great businesses, great products. I say great businesses, great business ideas, great products, great services, and all kinds of stuff that would impact people, but if they don't present it in a certain way, it's never going to take off.

Yeah. So, no, no, this is a great point. I didn't realize this early on, and I think I figured this out why my writing works, because I said it. Every dude has stories like this, so why read mine? I actually got, again, I got pretty lucky. I started my writing career not thinking of myself as a writer, not identifying as a writer. I literally, I think a half of the book I Hope They Serve Beer in Hell started as emails to nine friends of mine. And you know, when you're talking to your friends or emailing your friends especially, you can't waste the time. You can't bullshit them. They know you, you know, and especially if it's guys, guys break each other's balls. At least my friends break mine all the time. And so if I wrote something stupid or boring or annoying, they would just spend the rest of the day, all nine of them, shredding me. Right. So I kind of had this weird crucible where I had to train myself to write in a way that was totally focused on the reader and not focus on myself at all, which is, I think, the ultimate marketing lesson. You two, I know, know this really well because you guys do it. And I think this is one of the main lessons that most marketers need to learn. If they're not doing well, it's probably because they are focused on themselves or their product or their service, and they're not focused on the buyer and what they get. And that's really all my writing did. It started with good material and funny stuff, but a lot of people have funny stuff. I was really focused on making sure the reader laughed at every moment. And so if you read my books, they almost read, like, they almost read, like, literary sales letters in a way. You keep reading, you keep, because you're interested and you're hooked and you keep going. And I think that's a lesson that most marketers either don't fully get or don't fully apply, I think. Do you guys agree?

Yeah, totally. I mean, I remember, like, actually ended up reading I Hope They Serve Beer in Hell. And frankly, I think there's probably a couple chapters I never finished reading because I read it in piecemeal is years ago. When did the book first come out?

2006.

Okay. So I was with Dean Graziosi, you know, the real estate marketing guy who I've known for the longest time.

We're actually doing, you know, we're doing a book with him too. My company. Oh, perfect. Perfect.

Well, this is how it all comes around. Full circle. So we're in New York, and I'm going to New York with him. We fly to New York and he's going to show me his neighborhood and everything. Where he grew up and where he sold his first house and where he shot his first infomercial and all this stuff. And in the airport on the way back after this trip, he actually picks up the book in a bookstore. And Dean doesn't read. I mean, this might have been one of the first books he ever read. Now he's finally reading because for years he said, I just talked to Joe. Joe reads all these books and he tells me what I should know and I don't need to read books. Although the guy had become a best selling author, which is hysterical. Best selling author that doesn't read. But he picked up that book in kind of the way that you would pick up a magazine. It just had an interesting cover. And we're sitting in first class and he's laughing and like out loud. And I'm like, what? He's like, dude, you gotta read this shit. So he hands me the book and it has me go to the, you know, the insane chapter that, you know, that I'm talking about.

But.

And I read that and I'm like, oh, my God, this is. I cannot believe. You know, and that's kind of how it started. But it is. I mean, you write in such a way to where like, you're laughing your ass off throughout, you know, I mean, you're almost laughing because it's like shocking, you know, but at the same time, that's a good point. And a lot of people wouldn't even think of that. I mean, what you just said. You know, one of the reasons I think people aren't successful is they focus on themselves, the product or service, and not on either the reader, the client, or the person using it. And that's, you know, that piece of advice alone. If you really can ingrain that into your, you know, into your DNA as a marketer, that changes everything.

For writers, too. Like, I've never seen a major difference between writers and marketers. Like, a lot of writers like to think, oh, you know, I'm literary, I'm different than a marketer. I'm like, bullshit. No, you're not. You're both selling something.

You're just.

Writers are just pretending they're not marketers. Marketers are being honest. And most writers, I think more writers need to learn that lesson than marketers. To be honest is I would say I have thousands of. You know, I'm a huge reader. I have thousands of books, like, in your office, Joe. Like that many books. And I would say 80% of them, I stop after the first 10 or 20 pages because I'm like, all this person wants to do is listen to themselves. Like, they're just enamored with themselves and their clever ideas, and it's super annoying. And there are. Marketers can be bad, but they're almost none of them because you just don't survive as a marketer if you're not at least somewhat focused on your audience, you know?

Right, right, right. And, you know, let me also preface this too, because we're going to get into kind of the writing process, and I'm going to ask you some questions, not just past, but about your new business. And I am going to be doing a book with your company. We've had several conversations before the last Genius Network meeting. We had dinner, and I told you about my addiction platform. And I've talked to a lot of people about addiction. And you know that my two areas of where I want to help and do my business in is helping entrepreneurs and helping people with addiction. And I'll tell you, Dean, I wish you were at that meeting, Dean, but Tucker really, really understands human behavior, human psychology and how to engage people. And he came up with the name iloveconnection.com just like the. And so I registered that URL and that will. We're going to do an episode just on Connection, which will be a whole separate thing on that. But I just wanted to kind of put the bug in there for people out there that, you know, Tucker's ability. It's one thing about. We're going to talk about books and that it's one thing to, you know, write a book and assemble a book. It's a whole other thing to understand the psychology of what to title something, what to call it, what's the premise? What's the outcome? So what I want to ask you first, though, before we go into that is to kind of finish my question. So you were writing down all these things. How the hell did it end up in the hands of a publisher? How did they react initially? But how did you end up making it work?

So basically, After I was on MTV and it was two things happened at once. I was on mtv and this is back when MTV actually played music videos. So like, being on MTV was like a big deal. Not so much now you just have to be a knocked up 16 year old and you're automatically on. But this was back when more people watch tv. And so that happened. And then also I got sued by one of the girls I wrote about. Like, I used fake names for everybody in my stories except me. And this girl, I used her real name because she was a public figure. And the law, you know, around this is very clear. If you're a public figure, then someone can use your real name and tell as long as they tell the truth. And. And basically she was like a Miss America contestant and Miss USA contestant and her platform for those was like chastity and abstinence, right? And the first night I met her, we got drunk and screwed in the back of her Ford Explorer. And so like, I just wrote about the month that we. We didn't really even date. We just kind of got together and humped and that was about it. And she sued me. And it was the first time in the history of the Internet that a prior restraint ruling had been issued against the website. Which basically prior restraint is like telling someone they can't publish something which is totally antithetical to First Amendment law. Basically the American law only recognizes prior restraint for cases of like, national security, like big crazy things like that. So this was like front page of the New York Times. And it was, it was nuts. And after that, my site blew up and then publishers actually came to me, but they were still only offering, like, I think the best offer I got was like a $10,000 advance. Like basically like chump change. So I actually turned them all down. And then this one publisher, Jeremy Ruby Strauss, came to me, editor, and he said, look, Tucker, he's like, you can, you can sit there and say that you're right, that we're not offering you enough money and that, that screw publishers, that the Internet's the future and all this sort of stuff. And remember, this is like 2003, I think this happened, right? He's like, you can say that and you might be right, but until you win at the established game, no one's going to take you seriously. Is like, until you do a book and until you put it on the best subtle list, you're just some random voice. But once you have, once you do that and you have that credibility, then people are going to take what you say. Seriously, because you've already beaten the established game. Now you can talk about how the games fixed or broken or corrupted. And I was like. It was like one of those gut shots, man, where I was like, this dude is totally right. Like, I've got to do it this way if I want to be taken seriously. And so I basically did the deal with him and his publishing house, and then at that point, I became a real writer. It was sort of a weird thing, like, I was getting paid to write. And so I finished the book, and then it came out. And because I had been forced to publish my stuff, you know, myself on my own website, I was one of the first writers to have their own email list. Like, now everyone. It's like an assumed thing. But in 2003, using an email list for marketing was something that, like, only people, like serious marketers, like you guys understood. And. And I didn't really even understand it in terms of, like, the level that you guys hit at all. I just assumed, oh, you know, here's people who want to hear what I have to say. This is great. Right? And so my book actually hit the New York Times bestseller list the first two weeks it was out. Actually, it started like 24 and then went to 30 or something. And so, like, I became the first. The first blogger to get a book deal and the first blogger to hit the New York Times bestseller list, it was me. And then the. I don't know if you remember this book, Julia and Julia, the blogger who, like, took the all Julia Child situation.

She still has that. Yeah, she took it. She stopped writing the day that Julia Child died. And I think it's still up. And she probably still collects donations.

Yeah, right.

She and I hit the bestseller list the same week, so we can both kind of claim the first. And I signed my deal, like, the week before her, but she and I were the first. And so that's kind of how that all. And then from there, I just. I kind of took that career, you know, did. I did three, four books in that genre. The movie. I kind of rode that horse out about as far as I could, but eventually I just got tired of it. It's really aggravating having your sort of company and your brand be yourself. Some people, like, you know, Kim Kardashian love that. And that's, you know, deeply empty. Narcissists love that. But I think if you're like a real person, then having your company and your brand be yourself sucks, because then everyone. People look at you like a thing and an object and not a person. And it's really, really hard to live that way. So I didn't really want to continue doing that.

That's. That's interesting. No, that's. That's very interesting, what you did, what you just said. I mean, so do you think a lot of these personality brands. I mean, what's your thought about people that build the whole business around them?

I mean, it's not. I don't mean a moral judgment. I just mean it's really hard. It's just really hard on you as a person, you know? And so, like, for some people, it works really well. Like, a friend of yours, J.J. virgin, does a great job of this, you know, but in the health and fitness space, she kind of. She's able to wall off. JJ Virgin, the expert from JJ Virgin, the human, you know. Right.

But.

But, like, in health and fitness, that's absolutely possible, but it's just. It's just. Well, I don't know. I mean, being. When you're the show, it's hard. What do you mean?

I think there's a distinction, though, like, what you're saying, Tucker, is that I think that when the brand is you and it's all about you and your exploits, like Kim Kardashian or, like, what you were writing about back then, that's one thing where the focus is on you. But JJ Virgin, true, is the brand, but her brand is. Let me help you.

That's really what it is.

She. That's a different. She's in service to people.

You're exactly right. Right. Yeah, that's exactly. That's actually a really good distinction. Yeah, I think that.

I think it makes it in that same. Tony Robbins in that same category and Dean Graziosi and all of us in that kind of where we're the brand, if you want to say it, but that it's in service to people. Let me help you not look at me.

Right, right. Yeah. That's actually a really good distinction because, like. Like, I would go to events. Like, when I was sort of at my. My peak of sort of my old stuff, I would go to events, and it would be. There'd be, like, you know, five hundred or a thousand people there to see me, and they would stare at me like. Like I was a monkey in a zoo, like, expecting me to do things, you know, And I was like, I was even. That people realize I'm a human being. Right. It was. It was a really weird thing for me. It was hard.

Even though we have an episode where.

One of the things that was kind of freaky. But I talked about it before it happened. We make the distinction between Siegfried and Roy and the Blue Man Group. And I wrote this before, about a month or two months before Roy was mauled by a tiger, that I was writing how the difference between the way their businesses were structured. I was reading in Forbes magazine how they had the top hundred entertainers, and Siegfried and Roy were on the list at, like, you know, $35 million. They just signed a new contract with the Mirage, and they were doing, you know, eight shows a week for 40 weeks a year. And then further down the list, there's the Blue man Group at $69 million. And there was an article about the guys who, you know, there's four guys who started it and they don't perform anymore. You know, I mean, they had all these blue men everywhere. And I was talking about the difference there, how clear that is, that when you start a business or have a business like Siegfried and Roy, when people come to see Siegfried and Roy, it's a different experience than when they're going to the Blue Man Group. I mean, you go to see the Blue Man Group and you're going to see a great show and a great experience, but when you go to see Siegfried and Roy, you're going to see Siegfried and Roy, you're not going to see two Guys and a tiger. So you can't.

It's a.

It's a different thing.

Right.

It would be a different experience if, you know, playing the role of Sig Free tonight will be Tucker Mack. It's a different. It's a letdown if you're not the one there. So there is that whole. You got to kind of see that through. There's another evolution beyond being a personal brand.

Yeah, being a personal brand sucks for that reason. That's a great example. That's a perfect one, actually. Yeah.

Well, I mean, you. You have parlayed what started out with you writing, you know, these stories and publishing these books and now into a business with helping other people put their books together. So what did you. So after, I hope they sort of bear in hell you did two more books. What is the most useful lessons and things that you did that you learned to further your career along that would be useful for people listening to this to get out of it? I mean, what were the insights, lessons, mistakes, whatever that you think would be most useful for that time period?

I mostly made mistakes. The big lesson I think we already covered, which is if you make something centered, if what you make is centered on the reader or the buyer, it's going to do better. And I kind of lucked into that. I figured it out along the way and I focus more on it. But even if you read, I actually got worse, to be honest. You want to talk about mistakes, you can read my first book and then read my second and my third. And it's a weird transition because the second and the third, I think are better written, but the first is a better book to read. And it's weird. But I think the reason is because in the first I was totally focused on the reader and not on myself at all. And in the second and third, I was at least somewhat focused on being Tucker Max in quote, you know, and once you become self conscious like that and you. Then it's hard to maintain that authenticity. I think that was a big mistake I made. And it's pretty common, you know, for someone as young as I was and as fucking stupid and arrogant as I was, like, it was almost inevitable. Some other, some other mistakes. I'll tell you, man, I think the big mistakes I made were. The biggest mistake I made was I thought it was about me. I thought my success was because I was so brilliant and so funny and so charming and so charismatic and so amazing. And I didn't realize that I had captured a moment in time and had a little bit of skill and a lot of luck. And because I thought it was about me, then what that led to was a series of decisions where I basically made dumb decisions, but I thought they were good because I was making them. So instead of evaluating what's the best decision, independent of sort of, you know, like what I think of myself, right? It was just like, well, this is what I want to do and this is how I want to do it, and it must be right because I'm so brilliant and such a genius, I did all this, you know. And I mean, quite honestly, like, the hard reality is I should have made $50 million off of all the assorted properties and stuff that I could have done. And I made like 90% less than that, maybe even less. Like, I did fine, but I feel like I spent 10 years and lost $40 million or $45 million. And because of my arrogance and my. My conceitedness and that was the lesson that I didn't just pivot into this book thing, man. Like, that was like I spent about three to five years really diving into like how. What a shithead I was and how much I paid the price for that, which has helped me going forward. But it Sucked for a while. Dude, facing your. Joe, you know this really well, facing your, your sort of your pain and facing your mistakes is like a cripplingly hard thing to do.

Oh yeah, yeah, absolutely. And if the challenge is, if you don't, you live with it. And so you know the thing to looking back at your, at your younger self, then I mean, I mean, clearly I'm not saying this for effect or I'm not going to hit you with any hardball questions in an attacking, critical way. Do you truly think of yourself as like, I was a total asshole and I said shit I shouldn't have said. Do you even have those thoughts or does it not occur that way? Or how do you think about yourself now? Meaning from a self worth level, from a true self esteem level?

No, that's actually a great question. I. Here's the funny thing. A lot of people think I should be ashamed of, like things I did, like what they write about in the books. I'm not ashamed about that at all. Like, I got drunk and I threw up on myself and I had sex with girls who wanted to have sex with me. What the fuck is there to be ashamed about? Like, I had no shame about that. Now granted, I did some things that were like, messed up and I'm ashamed of, like, I probably should not have, you know, like any number of things I probably shouldn't have done that were really stupid. But it's more like, oh, well, I was a goofball and an idiot. I didn't understand. I'm not ashamed of that. The thing I actually kind of beat myself up more about is what I just talked about is all the dumb decisions I made because I was so arrogant and so egotistical and because I thought I was this blinding genius who'd created something so amazing that I couldn't make a mistake. You know what I'm saying? Like, the mistakes people see are not the ones that I beat myself up about. That's no problem. It's the ones that people I think haven't seen or don't see.

Right, right. Well, you know, the thing is, what, what do you think when people are in that or similar positions? I mean, what keeps people stuck? Because if, you know, look, I mean, you didn't, you didn't exploit all you could have. There's a decisions that you made that were dumb as hell, however you kept going and a lot of people kind of get stuck. And I see a lot of people in this. The funny thing is I have a lot of friends that are authors and information marketers and thought leaders. One of the things I heard early on, which you've probably heard a million times, is don't believe your own pr. And I see a lot of people that become very successful, very famous very quickly and they actually have an opinion of themselves, that it's an elitist, narcissistic, whatever sort of opinion of themselves. And they do really well for a period of time. And then boom, reality hits in that you aren't this magic human being. You just had right timing or you did something really well. I'm more interested in sustainable success. I mean, show me someone 10 years from now, show me someone 20 years from now. Show me someone that's been in the game and is, you know, for the most part they're doing well and they keep growing. So you have continually sustained stuff. And so there's a. What would you, you know, what would your advice be to. For people to not believe their own pr, not develop that arrogance and stay level headed about this because, you know, their future kind of depends on it.

So that's an excellent, excellent question. I think what I had to do was I had to crash. And not everyone has to do that. But you know, like the movie that was based on my first book and based on my life didn't do very well. I mean it did fine, it made a few million at theaters, but that I expected 10, 20 times what it did. And there were a lot like I had to. Failure. All success teaches you is to repeat what you just did. So it doesn't teach you anything. What failure? Failure forces you to confront reality. And so I failed a lot. And then you kind of have a choice there. Either you're going to confront reality or you're going to tell yourself a story about why it's someone else's fault. And I did tell myself a story why it was someone else's fault at first. And basically I have some good friends around me and I have some, I have just enough of a skeptical mindset that I point to myself where I was able to over time like call bullshit on myself and with help other people and you know, like a lot of really close relationships I had kind of broke down because I was an arrogant piece of crap. And once I kind of realized that, then I had to face the really hard fact that it was me. And then once, once you accept that, then you can start to move forward and get help. And for me, I think everyone has their own path to sort of to help. But for me, the important thing was I did four Years of psychoanalysis, which is like going four days a week. And then I actually started pairing it in the last year with meditation and a lot of sort of Buddhism. Not like Buddhism as a mystical thing, just sort of the ethical principles of Buddhism and meditation. And it really helped me. And what it helped me do is be clearly who I actually am. Both the flaws and sort of the, you know, the good things. And once you see who you are, you stop telling yourself a story about how great you are. And you realize, you know, we're all flawed and we all have problems. And you, once you understand yours, you're able to account for them, and then you're able to then kind of go forward and create a sort of a pattern of making good decisions as opposed to making decisions that just feed your ego. Is that like kind of the answer you're looking for in depth?

But that was.

That was excellent. That was very good. And so, I mean, I imagine you like the new version of you better than the old version. And. And this ain't a moral thing. Like, oh, the old version was bad. I'm just saying you have a deeper understanding of who you are as a person, and therefore I imagine your life probably. I don't know, I mean, you probably experience life at a much more enjoyable way than maybe you did in the past.

Oh, dude. Of course, the big. For it really, the big, I think, thing for me was understanding I had a lot of friends, I didn't have a lot of super close relationships. And I think it was because I was a hard person to be around. And once I understood that, I accepted that and then understood why I was able to sort of work on myself a little bit. And I didn't fundamentally change. I just kind of took these shitty parts of me out and I. That's really how that was for me. That, you know, what it, man it boils down to is that I realized, I think that the only thing that really matters at the end of the day is the relationships you have with the people you love and the things you do that help other people. And that's it. Those are the only two things. And once I got that, I stopped focusing on how can I be famous? How can I be rich? How can me, me, me, me, me. And I stopped focusing on. I started focusing on us, us, us. And that's like almost right after that, I met my wife. You know, like, business idea fell into my lap. I met my co founder, it took off. And I think about that every day. Is that the more I make it about Us, the better off I will be and everyone else, the more I make it about me, the worse off everyone will be. And that includes me. Yeah.

That's great. That's great. Well, having a son now, what has, what has that done for how you think and view your life? The world, business? I mean, what, what has that done for you?

So let me, I'll tell you the truth. Most you hear a lot of people, like, oh, I had a son. It totally changed my life. Everything was different. It didn't actually, for me, it was a weird thing. I don't know why. For me the bigger thing was my wife. She came into my life and she's just such a strong person, but then also so sweet and so compassionate and she really helped me fundamentally change in a lot of ways. I mean I'd already, I was already walking this path, but like she, she helped me see a lot of things and change in ways that, that have fundamentally in a lot of ways reshaped who I am for the almost all for the better, I would say. And I feel like my son came after and I don't know, man, I've heard a lot of guys admit that this, but they'll only admit it like behind closed doors. They won't say it publicly, but they'll say like, yeah, I didn't really connect with my kid until they got to be about a year or a year and a half. And that's exactly what I'm feeling like the first year. It's basically just this little sociopathic locust, like it doesn't even recognize anyone else as a person. It just cries and poops and whatever. And I mean I love it, I love him when it was, when he was a baby, but it was, it wasn't really a human, it was just this thing you had to take care of. Now he's like a person a little bit, you know. And so now like I'm really starting to connect with him. And it's amazing but like, maybe part of that is my development. But like I have problems connecting to things that don't connect back to me. And an infant does not connect back to you. Like it just objectively, scientifically, it does not connect. Now you can love it and you can project a relationship on it. And that's what my wife did and my mother in law and they could not love anything more than they loved my son when he was an infant. But like I kind of only loved him in the abstract. Like I cared about him, but I didn't have a deep connection until really the last six months. Now it's kind of become this really cool thing where it's like, I'm starting to realize, holy shit, I'm not just an adult. I'm like. And I'm not just responsible for myself. You're a breeder. Like, Right, right, a breeder. But like this amazing little creature who's a wonderful little kid and a human now, like, depends on me. And I. If I let myself down, that's one thing, but if I let him and my wife down, that's something totally different, you know? And that's like. I don't know. It actually is invigorating to me in a lot of ways. It's like, okay, it's easy to check out on yourself. That's why people have trainers, because it's easy to quit when the set gets hard. But if you have a trainer, they kind of push you. I feel like my wife and my son are like emotional trainers for me. Every time I slip into being a selfish, angry shit, I remember, like, well, if I don't get it right, then I'm failing them. And who wants to fail your wife and your son, your family?

That's a good point. I love that light. It's easy to check out on yourself. I just wrote that down because it is. And it's great to build in mechanisms so you don't check out on yourself. I mean, I think that's one of you take 12 step groups. I mean, people love them or hate them. It's one of the main things. If you kind of have these built in and individuals that hopefully believe in you when you don't believe in yourself, or you're not quite believing enough in yourself, or you're keeping yourself in check. It is smart, and I say it all the time to people that, oh, I want to work out, I want to exercise. Like, well, you have enough money to hire a trainer. Why don't you have one? I don't know. Well, you can solve that. If you have enough money to solve the problem, you don't have a problem. The Dan Sullivan quote. But no, that was great.

So cool.

Well, thank you for sharing that. So let's jump into business stuff and let's talk about this book in the box thing that you do and share with some of our. I love marketing listeners who would all probably be able to take away stuff and utilize your company if they wanted to. But I'd love to have you share kind of what to do and how to do it, even if they decide to ever work with a service like yours. Or not. So let me first ask, what are some of the most effective strategies, techniques, and marketing secrets that you know when it comes to succeeding in business? Let's kind of start with that and then set that as the stage for talking about how you help other people get their messages out to the world.

Yeah. So the first thing I would say, we kind of talked about it, but I love storytelling. I mean, I'm a natural storyteller. And I think not enough businesses tell great stories. And this ties back into what we were talking about earlier. Not only do they not tell great stories, but when they tell a story, they tend to tell a story about themselves to the listener. Right? So they'll be like, you know, we have the best lawn mower ever. Here's why. Like, horsepower, gadgets, blah, blah, blah, Right? But here's the thing. I don't think anyone gives a shit about a lawnmower. I think what someone cares about is how amazing their lawn looks or. Or whatever. I'm not a lawn person, so this is probably a bad example. But the point is, a lawnmower gets someone what they want. It's not what they want. Right? So a story about a lawnmower should really be a story about how a homeowner can become a lawn hero with this cool lawn. With this lawnmower. Right? So now you've shifted the story from being about the lawnmower to being about the buyer, the person. Right? So that's what I try to do with our business. We. The business is very simple. We basically turn book writing and publishing into a service. So we have a very algorithmic almost process and an amazing publishing team. And you spend about 15 hours on the phone with us, and we get all your ideas out of your head, structure them into your voice and into a professionally published, amazing book, like something you'd find at Barnes and Noble. And it's literally 15 hours of your time. So when we talk about this, we don't talk about our process. It's how we do this, even though it's really cool how we do it. And it's this really amazing. We've taken something that people thought couldn't be processized and systematized, and we've done it. And we've done it in a way that not only maintains quality, actually improves the quality of books, but no one gives a shit how the sausage is made. What they care about is what the book is going to get them. So we try to tell stories about, like, you know, there's a lot of different audiences. But let's say a consultant who wants to really establish their authority and credibility in their field. If they have a book that, where they kind of explain what they know, whatever they're consulting in, especially if it's something new or novel, then all of a sudden they are the authority, they're the go to person. And that book acts as a business card for the them and an amazing business card for them. So we tell that story, not our story. And now the consultants engage because what the consultant is seeing is themselves as their own, the hero of their own story. Right. Everyone is constantly thinking of themselves and they're thinking about their story. So what we try to do in my advice to anyone else, and you guys know this, you both do it really well, is when you tell a story, but tell a story where the customer is the hero and you are the sword helping them to slay the dragon, you're not the hero slaying the dragon, you know? Yep, yep.

So Dean, since you actually put together books for people and stuff too, what I'd love to have you speak to this and. Because I've got a whole slew of questions that I could ask Tucker, but obviously this is something that is near and dear to you, so.

Yeah, no, I mean, he's hit right on the. Right on the head. That's the thing that people respond to are stories. And the thing that a business owner is going to get as an advantage of writing a book is ultimately it's a calling card. Just like Tucker said, it's a really cool thing. And even in. You talk about consultants and I'll tell you a story. We did a book with a guy in Toronto who is a safety, workplace safety consultant. And you know, how could you think of anything less sexy than OSHA compliance, you know, and it's profitable, passionate. This guy's really passionate about it, you know, And I had a conversation with him and we talked and I said, what would be, what's the best thing that you could do for somebody if they would just get out of the way and let you do it for them?

Right?

What's the greatest result that you could create? And he went on in talking about how? Well, actually by really focusing on safety, you can create a better work environment. You create less absenteeism, you create all these great things and that creates a great return on investment. And we wrote this, we came up with this title of Return on Safety Turning Workplace Safety into a Competitive advantage and Bottom line profits. And now instead of having a conversation with business owners about hey, let us do your mandatory workplace compliance issues. You've now got this thing that elevates it to the point of something that at the C level, people are interested. So this guy became an instant sort of outlier in that world, and people gets invited to conferences. People are saying to him, when can you come and install this in our business? So he's turned it into a real advantage. Nobody else is talking about return on safety. Everybody's looking at it as a mandatory thing, an expense. And that telling that. Telling that story in the form of a. Of a book really can change people's minds, so.

Exactly.

I agree with you 100%. There's nothing like a book to create that credibility for people.

Yeah.

So, Tucker, you have. You talk about there's four phases of writing a book. You talked about it at my Genius Network Group. Can you kind of go through that?

Yeah. So the way we structure it, actually, we wrote a book about our process, which I sent the PDF to Eunice. Joe, if you want to give it out to your listeners, I'm happy to let you, like, on your site. However you want to do it, it's totally fine. But the way we structure it is we do sort of an outline first, and then the outline starts with positioning. And so the positioning is. There's basically three questions you need to ask yourself before you start your book. The first one is, what results do you want from this book? Because no one wants a book by itself. They want. Because if you just wanted a book and you didn't care about the results, then you can just. That's called a diary. You don't need to write a book. Just write it down and then put it in your drawer.

That's great. It's called a diary.

That's.

That's the class.

Seriously. It really is. If you don't. If you just care about the book, that's fine. But it's not a book, it's a diary. So what you need to think, what results are you trying to get? So for a consultant, it can be more business. It can be credibility. CEOs can be, you know, credibility can be about attracting people to their company. I mean, there's a million sort of results you could want. So now once you know your result, let's say you're a CEO and you're trying to attract great talent to your company. Right? So if you want to talk about your company's culture and all that stuff, okay, fine. You want to track talent. So. So the second question is, what audience do you need to Reach in order to get that result. It's basic sort of marketing positioning. If you're the CEO looking to attract talent, then your audience are people, the talent you want to attract and recruiters who serve that talent and the people who know that talent. That's your audience. Very specific. The more specific you can make your audience, the better book you do because of the next question, the third question you have to ask yourself, which is, what do I know that is valuable to that audience? Right. So if you're the CEO and you've got a great company culture and you want to use it to attract great talent, I'll tell you exactly. Here's an example of who that is. Christian Cottageni, good friend of yours, Joe, who's doing a book with us, Herox. He's got an amazing culture at Herox. He's writing a book with us about his company culture to not just really promote Herox, but to get great people to come join their mission. Right. And so what does Christian know?

That.

That that's valuable to people who could join his company recruiters. He knows how to run a company in a way that people get up every day super excited to go to work and love what they do. Right.

Yeah.

And that.

No, no, no, that's not.

Finish it.

You finish your thought. I wanted to say.

Well, I. Once you pair those three things together, Right. Like using Christian as the example. Now, the book is about how to run a company culture like Herox is. Right. Because even though it's a relatively small niche, he's not going to sell, you know, a million copies, but he'll sell, you know, that copy. That book will go out and reach all the people he wants to reach because it's exactly positioned to reach the audience that will get him the benefit he wants, which is great talent coming to his company.

Yeah. And one thing I wanted to mention, since you brought up Christian Cattuccini is like the. He's so good at company culture. And we were having lunch in Vancouver last year and I was, you know, we were talking about, you know, incentivized competitions because that's what Herox is about. But he started telling me about his company culture and that. And I'm sure Christian would even say this, that that is where the first thing started, where, wow, I should really be teaching people about company culture. And it's a good way to get people interested in seeing what they actually do in Herox. And we ended up doing a podcast episode on I love marketing with Christian. And so I just wanted to actually Plug that. But it all starts from. I think I was the first person that he's been talking about company culture for the longest time. But I said to him, I was like, christian, this is incredible. Do you realize, like, what, you know, many people don't. And it's fantastic that he's going through your thinking process here, because that's exactly where. How it needs to get out to the world.

Exactly. So then from there, basically, we structure the outline like, we figure out, understand exactly what he knows about culture and how it applies to companies. We turn it into a five to ten page outline. Then we have professional journalists that we work with who are interview him and get everything he knows about culture out of his head in sort of like the right structure and the right form for the outline, which usually is about five to eight hours of interviews, so sometimes a little bit more, but that's the average. Then we get those interviews transcribed, right? And, you know, like reading a transcript, just a straight transcript is kind of hard. So what we do is we take that transcript and then we essentially have the journalists translate it from transcript writing into book prose. So it's all of Christian's ideas, all of his words in his voice and structured exactly the way he needs to be. His book needs to be positioned. Then the way we edit it is really cool too. So instead of just sending him the manuscript because, you know, he's not. He doesn't want to sit there and edit a book, right? So he doesn't actually have to touch a computer. We send him the manuscript, and then the interviewer, the journalist, gets back on the phone with him and he reads the book out loud to the journalist. It's this weird trick that most professional authors know about that other people don't. I learned it when I did my first audiobook. When I read the audiobook for Beer in Hell, the manuscript was already locked. And I almost wanted to like, open a vein. I was so angry because I found like 50 little mistakes that if I had just read this book out loud, I would have seen, right? You hear them much easier than you can see them. And I thought I had edited this book like 20 times. So I thought there's no way there was a mistake. And there were so many, I was pulling my hair out. So anyway, so that's how we edit now is he actually speaks the book out, and then that way we make sure it's perfectly in his voice, everything he wants to say exactly the right way. Then from there, we do the rest of sort of the professional publishing process. Which is, you know, like we do an amazing layout for the interior, interior design. We do a great book cover, you know, with like high level book cover designers. We do, you know, all the sort of things that self publishing is great. But the problem is a lot of self published books look amateurish and they don't look really well done. So we make sure to us, I think the most important distinction is professional people, they care about professional books versus amateur, they don't care who published it. So we make sure the book is super professional. And we actually use a lot of the COVID designers that the big six publishers use because most of them work freelance and they're not expensive. You'd be shocked. Actually like 1,000 to $1,500 apiece. And so we do all that, you know, we set up Amazon page, itunes, all the sort of stuff you need for a book. And then we do a little bit of marketing, press release, we do like an Amazon bestseller package and things like that. So almost every author we work with gets to number one on some subcategory of Amazon and then from there it's sort of up to them.

Gotcha.

So Dean, I mean there's more. There's a lot of stuff I could ask Tucker, but I wanted to see. Anything you want to add or say.

Or ask, I'm tracking.

I mean I believe at all.

It's really interesting. I mean the whole. That's essentially our process for the 90 minute book, except without the, you know, not 15 hours of interviews or those kind of things. Just getting the initial. Imagine if you could think about what the difference is between. It's from concentrates, getting the high points, getting the most important. Like as if you only have an hour to do a presentation to an audience of your very best, your very best prospects, you know, your audience who you're trying to attract. And it's really, you know, all of these things, everything that Tucker has said, it's all brilliant. It's exactly the process that people need to go through. The thing that's really interesting about the Amazon bestsellers, which we've had a lot of people go through that process too and be Amazon best sellers. But the truth is that being an Amazon bestseller has nothing to do with the book and everything to do with how you do it. I mean we have people who have come to us, have gone through another, a similar process to what Tucker and I do, but have gotten the Amazon bestseller status for presale and then have come to us and said, okay, I got this Amazon bestseller, now I need.

To write the book.

Because they do it before they've even written the book, which shows you the absolute truth that it has nothing to do with the.

To do with the book. Yeah, you're right. 100% correct. I think Mike Koenig does that. He has some things I was just gonna say, so I didn't want to.

Call him out on it, but let's all. We're all friends, so let's do it. I mean, so Mike. They went exactly through Mike Koenig's process. You sit there, and while you're at.

The event, you know, they.

They call up their network, and everybody springs into action. Like a prayer chain or something. Prayer chain springs into action.

Everybody buys the.

The presale of the book, and there.

You are, 24 hours later, you're an.

Amazon best seller, and you come home floating on air. I've got the title, I've got this.

And now I got to write the book. And that's when we get the call.

That, you know, can you help me?

Because now the reality hits them that.

They'Ve got to actually write the book.

But it's some.

It's kind of a disillusionment at the same time for people that they realize that the truth about what's happening on the Amazon list, that it's not at all about the merit of the book.

It's about hacking.

It's about hacking the process to be an Amazon bestseller and that. Let's just get that out there and on a larger scale. That's exactly the same thing that's happening with the New York Times list.

Oh, dude.

The same process.

They are criminals at the New York Times. That's exactly. They're the snobbiest, most elite. Listen, my book spent five years on the New York Times bestseller list. They're the worst. I think they're the least legitimate, actual bestseller list. At least Amazon's is tied to something. Even if you think it's tied to that is legitimate. Right? The New York Times list is a curated list. So the fucking snobs on the Upper east side who think they're better than everybody decide what the right book in quotes will be for the list. That's total bullshit. I've always thought the New York Times list was bullshit, but. But, you know, it's like one of those status things that people think are important even though they're actually not. You know?

You know what's funny is I've helped quite a few famous people with their book campaigns and book promotions and several that because of My help, as a direct result of my help, ended up on the New York Times, be it either in the number one category or staying on for many weeks, months, etc. I remember talking to one of the companies that handles the logistics of buying books in bulk, and one of the authors I was helping who was high profile, basically saying, well, I don't, you know, I don't how the books are purchased. I don't want to be viewed as like, I'm trying to, you know, game the system that this person was saying and the person in this company that, you know, orchestrates that my feedback. First I said, look, I go, if you are super wealthy and you just want to like, buy a bunch of your own books and stick them in boxes in a garage and no one's ever going to read them, but you just bought your way home to the top of the list, that's one thing I would consider that like, what the hell are you doing? It's just pure gaming the system. I go, however, if these books that are being purchased are actually going to human beings and going to readers that are either buying them or someone's buying large quantities and sending them to their client base and they're actually getting used, that's a whole. I mean, you can take that and moralize it all you want, but I go, that's a completely different thing. But the comment that struck me as the most funny is the guy that, that was, you know, there's several companies that do this, but I'm not going to name names here. But he said this, the funniest line. He said, you know, the only thing unethical about this would be going into a gunfight without a gun. And he's like, you know, he's like, that's just what it is. And if you're not willing to play this game, don't make it a focus that you want to be on the New York Times. Because he's like, it's all rigged, you know, and this is very interesting, but you will. Okay, so. So that being said, for people that are out there listening to this talk about the time savings of. Because you both have companies that you have services that help people put a book together, take their ideas, get them out of their head and organize it into a book format and audio books, as far as I'm concerned, this is a way to tell your story. There are very slow ways to do it. It's kind of like the thing that I always think about. There's three ways you can learn something. You can learn through the school of hard knocks, which is painful and expensive in the long term. And maybe if someone has zero money, they can't do anything. But the school of hard knocks is one way to learn. The second way to learn is go to people's seminars, read their books, listen to their stuff, hire them as consultants. And the third most effective way to learn is you actually teach other people. In your particular case, someone can go and do this on their own or they can hire someone to do it. So, Tucker, you went through the time savings of why someone would think about utilizing a service like yours and what the actual time savings are. So in a lot of ways, people are not only getting something done that they're never going to get done any other way, but they're buying speed. And so I'm always willing to cut a check if someone's going to help me get to a result quicker. So your first thing of the process is what sort of result do you want? But in your particular case, talk about what results do you do for people and how should people think about this? Because I know hundreds of people that have over the years, I'm going to write a book. I've written a book, and here we are today. They've never written that book and they never get around to doing it. They talk about it a lot. But you actually, both of you, and in your own ways can make this happen. But people do need to cut a check. So the question is, is this really an expense or is it an investment? So I'd like to have you talk about what this process does for people.

Right, exactly. So I think there's a few things. Well, first off, we charge. My company charges 18 grand for the base package, which is what most people need, and then 30 for the higher one. And I think the reason you want to do this is not just because you want a book. There's more than that. It's what do you want the book to accomplish for you? Right. And so to understand sort of what you want that book to accomplish for you, it's like you need to understand how the book process works. You need to understand what ideas of yours should be. Are your ideas about book, how can they be positioned in the market? What's the best way to do it? Right. And that's really hard to do. Some books, I shouldn't say for all books, like, I think like a lot of the stuff Dean does, it's like the book he described, I think was a perfect example of someone who clear idea, not very long book like you can Go get through this quickly and get basically all the sort of value you're going to get from a book book. But a lot of people, a lot of people with us, they want a professional publishing team behind them, right? And so we have, you know, like just on staff, we have guys who spent 20 years at HarperCollins as executive editors or guys who spent like, you know, decades editing magazines and who've written, ghostwritten or written their own bestsellers. And like we have 12 full time people and all of them are like that. So we bring, I think an entire, we bring a lot of expertise. So most of our clients are people who are pretty, pretty high up, pretty top notch. And they're people who, they want this book, their book, to reflect their status in the world and to show the world how much they know and to sort of put it into a book that really makes them feel proud. And that's for people like Christian Cottage, she's a great example. Like, someone like Christian is, needs a lot. He needs a team of people behind him who know exactly how to take his ideas and position them in the, in a book and into the market to reflect, you know, what he's done and who he is. It's sort of like you can think of it like cars, right? Like a Hyundai is a great car. It's cheap, it's efficient, it's safe, it gets you where you need to go. But you're not buying anything except utility with a Hyundai, right? Then you can look at like, you know, like let's say a Bugatti or a BMW or something like that. Like a BMW, let's say a high end 7 series BMW. It's like 10 times more expensive than a, than a Hyundai or, you know what, eight times, right? And it's going to do everything a Hyundai does and then 10 times more. But all the 10 times more stuff is going to be stuff you don't need, but stuff that if you have, you can really enjoy and that can help you sort of get to other places or do other things that a Hyundai won't do. You know, it confers status, it converts, you know, credibility, all those sorts of things that having a high status car can do, right? Whether it's right or wrong, they do it. And so I think that's sort of why someone would want to come with us. And our service is like, if you have a full big idea and you want to make sure you get the best people possible, working on your book and putting it in the best possible light. Because that last 10, 20% makes the difference to you. You want to use us. If you have like a great idea, but you don't want to spend a lot of money on it, you just want to get it out and get it out in a way that's effective and works, then probably Dean's services have actually a better call than us. How long does your service take, Dean? Ours is five months from start to finish. You guys got to be shorter than that, right?

Yeah, 21 days.

Yeah, there you go. Right, Exactly. I mean like I think that was like brilliant.

Yeah, that was a brilliant loving refrain in comparison the.

So wait, would I be able to say Dean? Like if they want to use your process, it'd be like a one night stand. But if they want to go with Tucker's, it's like a long term relationship with that. No, like a Hyundai versus a Bugatti. I love that.

Brilliant, right?

You know, a lot of the zig is the.

You know, it's time matters for this too.

Right?

Like I guess that part of the thing is whether what your objective is. Just like you said, if we go back to the very beginning, here's what result do you want? If you're a small business owner and you want a result of getting more clients, that's your result and your audience is clearly defined. You know who you're trying to reach and you know what you have that's valuable to them, that's going to reframe or help them in some way. That, that's really, that's all part of the, you know, the entry level to even writing any book, whether you do a 90 minute book or whether you do a, a higher status, bigger process. But when you look at it, I think part of it is the time and the return on that investment. If you look at the starting process, if I were taking a local consultant or you take any kind of business owner who goal is to get more clients, if they're a consultant, a coach, a practitioner, product or service provider, whatever it is. If you take the time value, if you take the whole process and look at the return on investment and the time that it takes to get there, you could start down one path, take the path of doing a 90 minute book. Here's the thing that is the truth. First of all, the thing that's going to compel people to call or to raise their hand or to identify themselves if that's what you're looking to do. Generate new leads, start new relationships with people. The thing that's going to do it is the fact that you Have a book and that you have a title that conveys a compelling message to them that they're going to want to raise their hand for it. The proof right there is that you can become an Amazon best seller or whatever. It's all based on the title and the COVID of the book. Now if you start right now, if we take two people, you start the process right now and within 30 days you can have the completed book, have a landing page, URL, the whole everything you need to start generating leads. And you've spent $1800 and take the remaining 15,000 or $16,000 and start driving traffic to generate those leads with a Facebook campaign or a postcard campaign or whatever. There's no difference in what's going to happen with one book versus another. If you take a, you know, you got the COVID of the book, what's inside isn't going to be known until people respond. So it's not going to make the boat go faster to have a book that took you 15 hours and more editing time in five months to generate the lead that's not going to make that go any faster. So you've got a time advantage in that. You can start generating conversations right now. Because the reality is, even with any book, Even with a 90 minute book, people often don't even read the book. Everybody buys books that we never read or we start the process of doing a book like that. And the proof of that is that I would guess just anecdotally in the people that I've talked to who've done 90 minute books with us, that I would bet that at least 60% of the people who have actually paid and done a 90 minute book with us have never read the 90 minute book. They got it, they hold it in their hand, they see it and they say that's this is what you get in 90 minutes. I, yeah, I would love to do that. And then they sign me up and they do it and they go through the process and they've never even read the book. And that's the proof that, you know, it does is not what it is. You know, it's not about that process.

So yeah, you know, we have a very different audience. I think we have a service.

Let me actually take another angle on all this too. And it's not about justifying or rationalizing anything. It's just about human nature. Like, one of the things that drives me bananas with some people is all of the shit that people focus on. It's kind of like, I don't know if you Remember this, Dean? I did it years ago. I haven't done it recently, but in Genius Network, I think I did this probably five years ago. And I had this anatomy, you know, like this figure of a human body where it had the heart and the lungs and the nervous system and the kidneys and the brain and the eyes, you know, and it was the. I called this tool anatomy of a successful business. And it had things pointing to it with this blank. Things pointing to, like the heart, the lungs, the kidneys, the digestive system, the genitalia, which, of course, is your favorite part. But it had all of the. That was a joke, by the way. I have no reason to say that. That was Tucker. Guys bust on each other. That was just being mean to Dean. But anyway, because I secretly don't like him that much. But anyway, it had this anatomy of a successful business. And I had everyone say, what do you think these things represent in a business? And some people be like, management is the heart, or marketing is the brain, or sales is the services. And every person would have different things of what they actually. So everyone's criteria is going to be different based on things. But what's always driven me nuts and why I'm such a champion for marketing, which is why we have a podcast called I Love Marketing, is I truly believe marketing is like the oxygen that makes a business work. And if you're gasping for air, it's kind of like hating oxygen, but you need it to survive. And so people that do not focus and put emphasis on, like, in the scheme of things, paying you $1,800 to get a damn book started or to do a book. Who gives a shit? Payne Tucker. 18,000 or 30,000, who gives a shit? Now, who gives a shit is if you don't have $1,800 or if you don't have $18,000 or you don't have $30,000. But I will tell you, the only way you're ever going to make that money is if you actually get out there and start selling something. And a perfect example is there's a book. I'm not even going to name the book because I'm going to end up interviewing the author later. But there was a. I was over my buddy John Butcher's house about three weeks ago, from the time we're doing this interview. And John runs the largest collectible company in the world. He's the chairman of precious moments, done 12 billion in worldwide sales. And he's a dear friend of mine. I've known him for about a Decade. And he's also creator of MyLifeBook.com, which is an amazing personal development system. So I see this book sitting on his desk, and I'm one of these people. Like Tucker was saying, I buy books at probably 10 times the rate that I could ever read them. Plus, because we do a podcast, and I do a couple podcasts, and I'm the marketing guy, I probably get sent 10 books minimum a week from people that think they're doing me a favor by sending me their book. And some of them are actually good books, but for the most part, I can't read them all. So I am in no way, shape, or form limited on needing reading material. I see this book sitting there because I have another book up in my backpack that I'm halfway through, but I'm add so I got to start reading another book. So I pick this book up and I start reading it, and. And it catches me right from the very beginning. It's just very interesting. It's about things that you can do to save money in your business and slash expenses and basically double your profitability as a subject matter. I say to John, I'm like, can I order you one of these from Amazon? And I'll just take this one with me. He's like, no. He goes, books like that, they make my head hurt. You can just take it. So I take the book and start. Start reading it. Well, day before yesterday, I literally reach out to this author. This book was written when he was 37. He wrote the book when he was 37 years old. I think he first wrote. I think it was published in 94, 95. But he told me on the phone that he wrote it in 93, but before I ever had a phone conversation.

So get this.

I'm reading this guy's book. By the time, like, it's a short book. The audio version of this book is only 2 hours and 15 minutes long. So it's not a long book. And I'm about 80% through the book. I'm just reading it saying, I want to interview this guy. This is a freaking killer book. He wrote it over 20 years ago. So I send an email to the guy saying, hey, would you like to do an interview? And he basically, you know what? I should probably just find the emails and read it to you, but if I can't find it quickly while I'm talking, I'll just say it from memory. But he responds back and says. He goes, you know, if you want to pay me for the interview, I'm Happy to do that, but it's probably not. I told him I liked the book. He's like, thank you very much, I really appreciate it. As far as the interview, if you want to pay me for the interview, great, but that's probably not part of your business model. And I liked his attitude because it was the same sort of attitude he had in his book. And of course doesn't know anything, anything about me and I'm in the same position. So many people ask me to do interviews with them that I have to turn them down. My criteria is if you're not a genius network member, you know you're going to. Either you need to have a big following or there needs to, because most people want to do interviews with me to use me as a way to help leverage their, whatever their podcast or their interview. And if I don't have a relationship with them, you know, you just, I get so many requests, I just can't keep up, keep up with it all. But I responded by going, you know, I understand, I'm actually interested in hiring you. We have a couple of emails back and forth and he's like 25 grand a month for consulting and he usually does it with big companies. And I just basically write an email to him saying, I'm happy to hire you for a month and see where this goes. Because of this guy's book. The email chain literally was within about a four hour period. And then I said, hey, I would like to hire you, but I can't do it in the month of February, which is where we're coming up to right now. I'm going to TED in Vancouver. I've got a genius network. I'm just busier than shit in March. I'd like to do some consulting with you over the phone. So I basically cut this guy a check. I said, but I will pay you in advance. And I go, well, this, start in March. I send this guy a check for $25,000 because I read his book. Now everything I just said is not that big of a deal, but it's a huge deal to me because it feels, I was like going, you know, this guy wrote this book in 1994. He wrote it when he was 37. He's now 60 years old. And I just sent a check to someone who I've never met. I had literally a five minute conversation with him and a few short emails and I sent him a check for $25,000. And if I really like the guy, I might continue to pay him 25,000amonth. Because that's his thing. What most likely will happen is I'll just become friends with him and I can help him. Unbeknownst to him, I can help him as much, if not more, than he can help me financially. But I'm a guy that I'm happy to pay for expertise. And had it not been for that book, I would have no awareness of it. Now, to bring this back to you and Tucker, there are so many people out there that have shit to sell. They have ideas, they have causes they want to fund, they want to change global conversations like I want to do with addiction. And all of these things are sitting in their head. And they will sit and they will spend months or years of their life trying to figure out if I should ever write a book, how do I put it out there. And their services now, because of technology, because of this shit just gets done for you. And if people have, you know, if you don't have the ability to pay for services like this, then, you know, what's ever going to change? I mean, you know, figure out how to get it enough money, put stuff together and get these stories out there. Because, like, I define marketing. Marketing is storytelling. And if you have something that needs to be packaged and told. And so it dawned on me. I had this conversation with Tucker. I was like, going, you know, like, I need to write a book about what I do the best, which is I've written books, I've talked about it. I obviously have 245 people that pay me $25,000 a year to be in Genius Network. It's not like I'm not making money, but I have skills and I have resources. Episode 29, the one that we did years ago, Dean on the Magic Rapport Formula is still one of people's favorite episodes because I literally go through how I meet people. And so I talked to Tucker and I said, we're going to put together not just a short book. I'm not just trying to get it out there with a book cover. I mean, I'm really going to put together in my words. I'm not going to have a ghost written. I talked to Tucker how we're going to actually do this thing, but I'm going to, you know, he has resources that I could that can utilize. And you helped me with the first version of the Magic Rapport formula. So the way that I look at it is if you just need to, like, get your thoughts down, you know, get Dean's process and do it, you know, if you want to do it, At a higher level, keep going deeper. And if you want to go it at a much higher level, there's people beyond Tucker that can help you do stuff. The point is, don't do this shit on your own. It's stupid. I mean, it's fucking stupid. I mean, stroke a check, get something and put your thinking together. It's the same reason I tell people like, oh, I got something that I want to sell to people, but I.

Don'T know what to say.

I'm like, well, hire the draw shop at fifteen hundred dollars a minute to do an animated video for you. And if you have to do a three minute video, it'll cost you 45. But because of that three minute video, you will think about your business in ways that are going to be worth way more than the $4,500 on a three minute video. Or if you spend $10,000 on a video. If you do a 90 minute book for $1,800, it could be the best $1800 you ever spend just to think about it. If you go to tucker and spend $30,000, you know what's going to happen to your brain? Do you know what's going to happen to your business? Do you know what's going to happen about how you talk, about what you do? What it does is it increases the value of what you're offering to the world. Not only to the world. So it's packaged and you have a deliverable, but it's what it does for your own thinking. And people like, I'm amazed that they don't get that. This is not about a book. I mean, the book is the thing that will come out of it. But it's what it does for your thinking, it's what it does for your positioning, it's what it does for your brain. And the people that are unwilling to understand that or make that sort of investment are the ones that will go through their whole life and they'll never get the shit done because they live in a scarcity mindset and someone that comes from an abundance mindset, they'll put money into things all day long because it goes back to if you've got enough money to solve the problem, you don't have a problem. If one of your problems is I want to write a book, but I don't have enough time. Well, if you have the money, you don't need a lot of time. I mean, you know, you just don't. So that was a very long rant. I hope it was maybe useful in some way.

Shape or form.

And I probably could have said it in a third of the time, but that's. I felt I needed to say that just for therapeutic reasons.

Dean, I don't think you look at your version one. That's the thing that's. You said the right thing there. You know, like you look at all these books that Dan Sullivan Sullivan does, for instance, all like the 25 year framework, the four Cs, the. All the books that he's working on that he's doing one a quarter start out with the 90 minute book process that starts there and then his team takes over and does the next levels of it to turn it into what it. But just. That's exactly it, Joe. Get movement over meditation. That's really what it's about.

Yeah, yeah. And sorry, Tucker, you're going to say something before Dean, just.

No, I was going to say I think you just nailed a pitch for why to do a book better than I could. Yeah, it was much longer than I would have done too, but it was also better.

No, no, part of it. I was just trying to get my thoughts in my head. But at the same time, you know, so fortunately if I would have scripted that, it would have been much more articulate. The point is the thing that made the difference for me. When I was a dead broke carpet cleaner living off credit cards, I paid a copywriter $1,800 in 1992 to create my very first consumer's guide. I knew that I needed something to position me other than people calling up and saying how much do you charge? And I didn't want to advertise price. But what I did know is I learned about sales letters and I read Gary Halbert in his newsletter wrote, any problem in the world can be solved with the right sales letter. There was no Internet back then and it was all paper and ink. And we're doing direct mail and Valpak coupons and every other carpet cleaning company's advertising price. And I create a consumer guide to carpet cleaning. Read this guide and discover seven questions ask a carpet clean cleaner before you invite them into your home. Eight Mistakes to avoid when choosing a carpet cleaner. Six Costly misconceptions about carpet cleaner, Carpet cleaning, Crawling critters and a guide to the slime, grime and livestock that's seeping, creeping and galloping through your carpet. How to avoid 4 Carpet Cleaning RIP offs. The difference between value and price. How to get your carpet cleaner to 100% guarantee their work. And it said that on the COVID Then he would open it up it says, dear homeowner, choosing a carpet cleaner isn't easy. Why? Because you're bombarded with confusing claims, simply bad information, low price methods, near unqualified technicians. How do you ever find a professional qualified carpet cleaner? You start by reading this guide. With this information you can make an informed, intelligent decision. And then they would read all that would describe all of the stuff. And it was a short guide. But I paid $1,800 to have this, frankly, this half. You know, if you take an eight and a half by 11 piece of paper, fold it in half and that would end up turning, turning into about 10 pages. That was the guide. And I paid $1,800 to have that written back in 1992. And I paid on credit card to have that done. But what that did for me was I no longer became just some guy that had carpet cleaning services. I now had something to tell my story. I now had something to be able to educate people. And that consumer guide ended up becoming the first thing that not only helped me turn my carpet cleaning company around, obviously I had to learn other marketing strategies. I had to learn how to advertise the consumer guide. I turned it into a 24 hour free recorded message. And that was in 1992. In 1994, I started my marketing company. I sold my carpet cleaning business when I was 26 years old. In 1995, I did a quarter million in sales of selling a how to course, teaching carpet cleaners. By the next year I did half a million in sales. By the third year, I literally did a million in sales and I was a millionaire by the time I was 30 because I. But it all started with that consumer guide. And by the late 90s, every major phone book in the United States had one or multiple versions of my free recorded message ads running in all kinds of different industries all over the United States. And today over $2 billion have been generated that we can even loosely track based on my ads and campaigns. But if that shit just if I wasn't willing to stroke that check for $1,800 when I was broke, none of this ever would have happened. I never would have built any of my business. And that's the thing that drives me bananas about people. It's not about people are so cheap they don't realize they're screwing themselves because they're not willing to do some of these things. And that's not to say that if anyone goes and hires you or hire Dean, that all of a sudden it's going to make them rich. I Mean, that's not my point. The point is that you really, if you have the message, is the most critical thing in the world. Do you think there'd be any such thing as Christianity if there was no Bible? You know, the Bible is one of the most successful sales letters ever written. And the point is, you know, like, there's 2,200 different versions of Christianity that have made billions of dollars based on the fact that there was a Bible written.

So it's like, you know, to Tucker's point, it's all stories.

Totally, totally.

Yeah, but by the way, if I keep talking, guys, this is going to be like a four hour podcast. So what did we learn here today?

What did we learn? We learned that Joe has a future in marketing, clearly.

Well, here's the thing too. Had I not paid someone to help me put the words in my head, because I spent 30 days with this copywriter teaching him about carpet cleaning, one of the most boring subjects on the planet for someone who's not a carpet cleaner, I had to figure out how to successfully sell something nobody wants to buy. I always tell people, if you've got anything more exciting and sexy than carpet cleaning, you can probably learn a thing or two from my marketing techniques. Because I had to figure out how to learn how to sell in accidental industry. Just like Tucker. You're saying some of this shit was accidental? I wasn't growing up saying I want to have a carpet cleaning company. I bumbled into it. And I think a lot of people just stumble into their careers and there they are trying to figure out how to make a living. And so if you want to go beyond making a living, these are the things that you do. It's not the only thing. I mean, frankly, to be a successful human being, I wish it was as easy as many of the books write that there's only three things you need in order to be. There's a lot of things. I mean, you have to develop yourself as a person. You got to have integrity. And not always. Some people have no integrity, but they have a lot of wealth in terms of financial wealth, but I don't think they have a lot of relationship wealth. You could have a lot of money and be in piss poor physical conditions. So being a success has to do with a lot of many factors. But as it relates to marketing, if you want to replicate yourself, can and clone yourself, you either going to tell your story day in, day out, one on one, hire a whole sales force of people, or you're going to put a book together. And the Book could talk to tens of thousands. I mean, look, let's go back to your thing. Like, how many books have you sold, Tucker?

Sorry, I had a mute.

Out of all your books, how many? Do you have any idea what the. Like, how many have sold? I know it's over 3 million, but is it more than that?

Million?

Yeah. I mean, that's a lot of books. Now, has every single 3 million books been read cover to cover? Probably not.

No, probably not.

But there are a shit ton of people that have read your stuff. You've become world famous, a movie's been made out of you, you've made millions of dollars, and now you've parlayed this. Why? Because you started with writing, you got the writing down. And had you met someone like you when you were first starting out, your career would be decades ahead. If Dean had met someone like him. Years. And now with. I love marketing, I mean, we put this shit out for free. No one even asked to pay us for this. So in a lot of ways, we're just pointing people into different directions. So that being said, let's plug your service, tell people where they need to go. I'll take the PDF that you have given us and we'll put it on. I love marketing. Marketing. And we'll also. Dean, if people, you know, let's just do plugs for people to get started with if they want to get a book done and make this happen.

Yeah, just go to bookinabox.com and there's like a form there they can fill out. One of our people will get back to the person in like 24 hours or less and we have a whole conversation and see if it's right. Our service isn't right for everybody. I would say maybe only about half the people who contact us really should use us. Like Dean's right. There are some people where it's much better to go with him than with us. And there's some people probably who shouldn't be writing books at all. They just don't know, have anything to say.

Absolutely. It is true.

And I would tell you that's in you and that'll be filtered out through the whole process. Because I do know enough about your whole process now because I'm going to going through it myself, Tucker, to do that. And Dean, I think a lot of the people that have gone through your book process, a lot of them have developed them into much bigger books. And I think utilizing a service like Tucker's to take it up.

Absolutely.

Yeah, absolutely.

That's the whole thing. Because we, you know, we offer a very specific thing as a version one, you know, 80% approach. Get it out there and get focused on generating leads and getting business. That's the focus of who we're working with. Some people do want to go further and you're absolutely right. We've talked offline that that's something that we may have people who would be perfect for. What Tucker's.

Yep, yep. And so Tucker, what didn't. Didn't I or Dean ask you that? We should have asked you. And what would the answer to that be?

Man, that's a good question. I don't know. You guys covered just about everything. As much as you talk, Joe, if you didn't cover everything, something's wrong.

Over to Tucker's team and we're going to have this turned into like a 12 minute book that just contains the essentials of what the hell you need to say. So you'd have to. But you had to suffer through. Listen to me babble for part of this, but hopefully you found it useful. And to all of our listeners, please give us your feedback. If you end up doing a book, let us know about it because I'd love to see how many people this actually inspires to, you know, kind of go through the process. We'll put up Tucker's PDF. I think we should actually make people opt in for to Dean. I mean, why just give away this gold for free, you know?

Yeah, sure.

So you can make a deal.

If only there was a way.

Yeah, yeah.

I don't even know if you know this, but you know that Dean was the first one to ever create a squeeze page online.

No, I didn't know that. I didn't know I was talking to marketing world. That's amazing. For real? The first one.

Oh, yeah, no, he invented the squeeze page back in 1997. He did it with Stop your divorce. It was an ebook and he was the first one that ever put a, you know, a page up where you have to enter your email in order to go to the next page and get through. So he created that whole secret door and now millions of people utilize that formula. And then of course, he taught it to his buddy Evan Pagan, who ended up creating, you know, double your dating out of it. But Dean taught Evan that whole process in the very beginning. And that's how. That's how it all started. So for all the listeners out there, you know, when I sit and listen to your story, Tucker, I mean, there's so many people that are really utilizing marketing methods and technologies and stuff that now, you know, back then it was like no one ever did it. And today, some people, like, it's annoying. I don't want to opt in. But, you know, one thing that you will learn by putting together a book and watching how this is done is not only will you have a book, you actually learn how to develop a list, and you'll learn how to develop an audience. And if you have enough people that like what you're about, that gives you true staying power, that gives you real equity. And a lot of people have books, but they have no lists, they have no relationships, and there's a lot more to it. So hopefully we shared with everyone today some, you know, some solutions and some different ways to. To think about it. So any final last words from either one of you guys before we wrap?

Yeah, I, like, I didn't even know. A squeeze page is one of those things you don't even think someone invents. It's just been there since the Internet has existed. I had no idea you invented that, Dean. That's amazing.

Yeah, that's what he's famous for. And yeah, so, I mean, Dean, look, look, I mean, we could do this for two weeks because at this point, I' violated the one hour thing. And usually I'm the one that's trying to, like, tighten things up, but I just kind of went on a tangent. How are you sitting around one day and you thought that through? I mean, I know we've told this story before on past podcasts, but give Tucker the short version because people that are new to I Love marketing may not know this. And it's good to. I mean, we talked about this five years ago.

Yeah, well, part of the thing was realizing that I've always been a fan of what's going to get the best result. And I started experimenting with. You could put a form on your page and get people to leave emails. And what people were doing was they'd have their normal website and then they'd put this box that said in the sidebar of their site that says, hey, join my newsletter or whatever it is and leave your name and email address. And then what I started experimenting with was because I realized then the less that I put on my actual site, the less options there were, the higher the opt in rate was. And then I just thought, well, it's like I started doing it like the COVID of Cosmo magazine, how that's the thing that you just put compelling stuff. And actually it was the. The real estate website was the first one that I Did it for. And instead of saying click here, click here. I would say more inside, free inside all these things, which was you're looking at the table of contents, which is all this compelling stuff. And then as soon as I took out the other links, like where you couldn't click on anything, the only thing you could do was decide, oh, I want that and leave your name and email and. And opt ins skyrocketed. So that was the genesis of making it the only option. And I didn't name it the Squeeze page. Jonathan Meisel named it Name squeeze page.

Yep.

So what do you think of that?

That's pretty amazing. That should be in the big book of Internet history or something. I know.

You know what, maybe you should have Tucker do a book for you, Dean.

This.

Yeah, I could have Big book. No, I'm dead serious. And so I guess in a nutshell, I think your child is yelling for you, Tucker. So what I would say is.

A.

Straight Outta Compton movie.

That's what we could do.

The early years of the Internet. We could do it straight out of Compton.

Well, so I guess what to summarize this is that Dean's process is an appetizer and yours is the main course. Is that what you guys are saying here?

Yeah, pretty much.

We should have a contest.

Yeah.

The next episode will be a celebrity death match between like the different people that I like.

The Hyundai vs Bugatti. Because that's not a put down to me. Hyundai sells millions of cars and they're amazing and people love them. Like Bugatti doesn't sell as many as Hyundai, but it fits. They fit both fit specific niches. Yeah, I would say it's really the.

Choice has to become down to would you rather be rich or famous?

That's really what it is.

You want to be rich, then just let's get started. Do a 90 minute book if you want to be famous. Let's go talk to Tucker.

Yeah, that's actually a pretty good distinction too.

Oh my God, this is so good.

I love it.

Here's what I do want to say to all you of our I love marketing listeners. Many of us have been with us for years, so thank you obviously and share this message with anyone that you think needs to get a damn book out there. Secondly, we have never had any qualms whatsoever about sharing different services, different expertise. And we're always trying to bring to our listeners individuals, thoughts, strategies, methods, techniques and services that are going to help them to be better entrepreneurs and to be better marketers. So Tucker, last question. Why do you love marketing?

I love marketing because it's how you change the world. It's where you start if you want to change the world I should say is by reaching the world and that's through marketing. Yep.

Awesome. Okay, so Dean's service is 90minutebook.com Tucker's is bookinabox.com we will put on I love marketing links where you can get Tucker's book and you can download the that we'll do that for free. I'll just have Dean put up an opt in page and then you have to just exchange your name and email in order to get a really awesome book. And we hope that you utilize the services of either of them or both and put it together because why the hell not? This is like literally hiring a personal trainer for your business. Thank you guys. I appreciate it. And give us all your comments on ilovemarketing.com and we will talk to you on the next episode.