The One Where JR Shares His Marketing Insights - I Love Marketing With Joe Polish And Dean Jackson - Episode #113

I'm dean jackson, he's joe polish, and this is the I love marketing podcast. Hey, everybody, it's Dean Jackson and Joe Polish.

And a very special guest by the name of. Who is it?

The mystery man.

J.R. this is your cue. J.R. go ahead.

That's me. I'm J.R. i'm the luckiest person in the world to be talking to both of you again. I'm so lucky. I am honestly the luckiest person to be here with you, too.

Okay, well, first off, look, look, we really appreciate that. And there was an episode that was done while I was on Necker island with and Dean, and it was an interview with you. And you said nothing but growing wonderful things about me, which I highly, highly appreciate. And you know how much I respect you and admire you and think you're awesome in so many ways.

Now, that being said, because you know why, Joe? Because you could hardly tell that he was reading the script you had given him. I mean, he's such a natural.

It's so easy.

That's true.

That's true. He's way more talented than you, Dean. That's for sure. I give you a script and you just screw the whole thing up. But here's the thing. So after I heard that, I was like going, wow, this makes me look like such a great person. And it makes me sort of blush in a lot of ways. And it's very nice and again, I appreciate it. However, what people don't know about JR Is that this freaking guy knows so much about marketing. I mean, he's truly one of the smartest human beings that I know. How old are you right now, Jer?

I'm 27 now, actually.

27, yep.

I know.

And so, like, I've known you for a while and when I, you know, JR when you were.

When you were.

18, 19, how long did it take you to read and consume every single thing that J. Abraham had written or recorded?

Well, five times over. Because I didn't read it once, that's for sure. I mean, many times, going through the programs and the books. But I must have consumed that stuff very quickly. It couldn't have been more than, I don't know, a couple days. I mean.

Yeah, no.

Well, I love marketing. That's why I went through it. Right.

Yeah. Right?

Yeah. Well, you hit like, Jer's listened to probably everything that I've produced, he's read. I mean, so many books. Every type of marketer you can imagine, from Claude Hopkins and Robert Collier to modern day people from Dan Kennedy and Gary Halbert. And Jay Abraham and Seth Godin, you name it. He's consumed so much stuff. He reads so much stuff. I probably spend more time talking to Jarrah than almost anyone. And he's a great person to have as a brainstorm. And plus we've really worked on a lot of philanthropic sort of stuff too. Although both me and Jarrah are very much capitalists, as are you, Dean. And even though at the time we're recording this, the New Digital Age, which is the book from Jared Cohen, the director of Google Ideas and Eric Schmidt, the chairman of Google, just came out and JR summarized that book for Jared, came up with bullet points and everything, probably more than anyone else in the world. And he was one of the first people to read that book. So he's been very involved with some very high level clients. Whole workbook, amazing workbook that was put together for Peter Diamandis, his audio program, a video program done with Ray Kurzweil. JR laid that whole thing out. So he's very involved in a lot of stuff. And I met him as people that listened to the episode with jr. He was interviewing me about granting wishes for kids for Make a wish. And J.R. originally set up a meeting with me and the CEO of Make a Wish in Canada, Jennifer Ritter. We've had the top Make a Wish people that do the marketing for Make a Wish America Canada International, come and meet at my office in Arizona. We've been doing a lot of stuff. My thinking is for this episode, as a follow up, we should just talk to you JR about marketing because you know so much about it. I mean, it's rare that I ever meet someone that is such a student of marketing at such an early age. I mean, you consumed more stuff about marketing by the time you're 20 years old than most people will consume 1/100th of in their entire business careers. So, you know, that's a, that's an important thing too because what can we dispense on I Love Marketing episode that would take sort of your top thoughts about marketing, definitions of marketing, things on selling that we can distill down and share with all of our listeners so that they can really see just how much not only, you know, but what they can take away and they can use in their own business. So that's sort of the direction I want to go with this. Anything you want to say, Dean, since you've met Jer many times?

Yeah, absolutely. Well, I think just what you said that, you know, here's a guy who's really a student of the game and not only a student, but a lover of marketing. And, you know, he's been able to be involved on the highest levels behind the scenes. And, you know, he's. He's a clear thinker. And, you know, you and I both have had great conversations with him and had, you know, an observation of just the way that he sees things and the way he's able to articulate them. So I'm excited. I think there's a lot of value that J.R. can add to the world here. Yeah.

Yeah. So, J.R. i guess, you know, to start with, why the heck did you. Why did you fall in love with marketing so early on? I mean, your wish for Make a Wish was not to, as you mentioned on the episode, to go to Disneyland or to be something or an astronaut for a day. I mean, you wanted to meet somebody, so you decided, out of all people, to meet J. Abraham him, which is hysterical.

Yeah, I. First of all, I just have to say, Dean, you're so awesome. And, Joe, I love you. A lot of the things that I've been able to do are a direct result of you, Joe, and being in your life. So. Oh, my God, thank you for everything you just said. I'm blessing you talk about you blessing I'm. Someone like you would say that about me. It means the world. Thank you so much.

Absolutely.

So you say, why do I love marketing? I mean, well, the first requisite of really becoming an astute marketer is to recognize that loving marketing is important. It's not that loving marketing is nice or loving marketing is something you should consider. Loving marketing is important. And there's really two reasons. The first reason is the reason you'll tell people that's politically correct. And then there's the second reason. It's the whole Mark Twain thing. And I'll give you the politically correct reason. First, if you love what you do, and what you do is marketing something or yourself, and that is a whole other discussion, because there's a huge distinction between marketing something and marketing yourself. But if you love what you do and you have, it really gives you an active acuity or recursive refinement and a continuous understanding about marketing that will give you longevity over any competitor or apathy that would ever arise if you were doing something you didn't love. That's the reasonable reason. The reason you probably wouldn't say to someone, but is the real reason is that marketing is really the conduit and the mechanism to a lot of money. And of course, you're going to satisfy people and you're going to make people smile and you're going to make the world a better place and you're going to become a better version of yourself. And Joe, you talk about. You have a great riff where you talk about how selling makes you a better person and all the good qualities you have when you're selling come out when you're selling. But did I mention lots of money? Because marketing we're talking about, we're capitalists here. I mean, let's get to the crux of the issue here. Marketing equals money. And I think that's a pretty useful reason to like marketing and an important reason to like marketing. And it goes to one of two quotes that I really enjoy from Dan Sullivan. He says wealth is defined by being hassle free and money, it helps in that respect. And I think it was Halbert or John Carlton. You can correct me if I'm incorrect of who said it, but he said money solves problems that not having money creates. So I would say that loving marketing is important because you want to get the dosh, but also you're going to help a ton of people. You're going to become a better version of yourself.

Well, yeah, you know, let me talk about.

Would say though, because Albert would say that, you know, there's not, there's. I don't know that he would say there's no problem, but there's very few problems that good sales letter can't solve, which is marketing.

Right.

Yeah. And the whole thing about, you know, one thing that John Carlton, when I interviewed John on copywriting several years ago. I've interviewed John quite a few times, but he said, I want to have enough. What's that?

Yeah, we've had them on. I love marketing too. So people want to listen to.

That's right.

We did.

Just like we have JR on here right now. Big boy.

That's right.

Okay. All right. What do you think of that? What do you think of our sarcasm towards each other, Jer?

I love hearing you love each other. That's the best thing. It's a very. What is the thing you say? You have a mutual disrespect for one another. What's the thing you say?

The perfect balance of respect and disrespect.

Exactly.

Well, I think it goes.

I have the perfect balance of disrespect for Dean and he has the perfect balance of respect for me. And it sort of measures.

The equal.

And opposite reaction that meets in the middle.

Yeah. So what I was going to say, like the whole thing that John Carlton interviewed Me, he said, I want to have enough money so I no longer have problems money can solve. So then you have to deal with the problems that money can't solve. The deal is money can solve a tremendous amount of problems. I mean, I learned marketing in the beginning of my career. Never unlike you, J.R. you were inspired by marketing for probably similar, but probably different reasons than I was. I learned marketing not because I wanted to, but because I needed to. I needed to eat. And that was a problem I needed some money for. So did I need marketing? No, I needed food. And the only way that I could get food was through money. Because no matter how much you love somebody, you can't go. And you can't go to a restaurant, say I love you, can I have dinner? I mean, you can maybe beg once in a well, but it's not a very reliable method of eating. A better method is cash. Right? I learned marketing because I needed to eat. But the byproduct of that was I actually became fascinated with the fact that you can put words on paper and it would sway people's behavior. And I say words on paper because there was no Internet back then. There was no email when I first learned it. I mean, it was literally sales letters, postcards, flyers, advertising, advertising, radio, tv, face to face selling, that sort of stuff you mentioned. One thing I want to talk real briefly on and then spend most of this episode having you dispense your wisdom to me and Dean and our listeners is selling brings out your best qualities. The thing that we really want to flip the switch. When me and Dean first started, I love marketing, our conversations before starting it was let's rebrand, for lack of a better word. Because you know how we feel about branding. Our intention was to give people a different perspective, viewpoint, paradigm on how to think about marketing. Because so much of the world pooh poos this very important and critical system. And it's not just a method or a technique or a skill. It is a critical life support system for the economy, sales and marketing. And if you eliminate sales, you eliminate everything. And one of the things that has helped me was if you really care about someone genuinely, a family member, a friend, a community, a movement, whatever.

And.

It'S doing good things in the world, it's creating value for people, it's moving people in a direction that's good for them, then putting yourself in a position of selling brings out your very best qualities. Because when you're trying to persuade someone from going down a bad path, you become competitive, you become a listener, you become a Persuader, you become empathetic. You become caring and sharing and grateful. And all of these wonderful human qualities come out of people when they're in the mode of selling. And when I've done this in front of big rooms, I say to people, when you're selling, when you're persuading, when you're helping someone go into a direction, getting someone intellectually engaged in a future result that's good for them and getting them to emotionally commit to take action to achieve that result, which is the Dan Sullivan definition of selling. Who do you become? And I ask people, what do you actually do? Who do you become as a person? And people start yelling out all these things of, here's what I do. And I'm like, are all these good qualities? And they're like, yeah, well, how do these qualities come out of you? Well, they happen when I'm selling. So if all of the best human qualities come out of you when you're selling, what should you obviously be doing with your life? You should be selling, and how often should you be selling? You should be selling all the time. Then it takes it out of this, oh, we got to do sales today, because that's where we got to go get the money. It takes it out of that position. It's like this sneaky thing that you do to try to get money out of people to say, this is just one of the things that our company does. I was with Jen Lim, who's with, whatever her title is, Chairman of Happiness Delivering Happiness. She gave a session at XPRIZE this weekend where I was at. There's a bunch of cool people there. Tony Robbins led a session. The thing with Zappos, their whole thing is they don't even care about selling shoes. What they care about is delivering happiness. It's selling shoes or whatever else they're selling happens to be the vehicle to do that. So they're selling all the time, but their method of selling is that's how we are able to sell and deliver, in their words, happiness. So I think there's a lesson for everyone with that. And I spent way too much time talking about that.

No, that's so important, though. It's so important. I mean, that is why it's so important to market it. Not only does it make you okay, yeah, you're going to make lots of money, but it has the added benefit of making you a better human being for everyone. I mean, and you're providing so much value to the world. Everything you said, I couldn't even have said it better. So of course, the question becomes that this marketing is so important. Where does marketing come from? Where does marketing come from? Well, one part of marketing is math, okay? And you have all sorts of financial numbers. You got to know cost per lead, and you have cost per sale and conversion rates and lifetime value and total customer value. And by the way, I mean, you'll have a litany of metrics that come from different sections of metrics you have to know. So there's marketing metrics, okay? You have cost per inquiry or average close ratio. Or you could have employee metrics where you have compensation as a percentage of revenue or profit per employee or turnover rate. You could have customer metrics where you have retention rate and number of testimonials. You could have financial metrics, which is net cash flow, as an example. But, but, so I'm not going to spend so much time on math because that's an important part. You got to know your numbers. So part of where marketing comes from is knowing your numbers. But the second factor after math is realizing that marketing is born. In other words, where it comes from is it's in the minds of a market. That's really where marketing exists in a market. So the question becomes, what is a market? And I've never found a better explanation for it than Eugene Schwartz, who wrote an incredible book that everyone should read called Breakthrough Advertising. And he said it best, and I'll quote what he said here. He said a market is born the moment a private desire is shared by a statistically significant number of people large enough to profitably repay selling these people. So a market, which is a statistically significant group of human beings who share a private desire large enough to repay the cost of selling to them this market and each person who composes of it, they're driven by, at the most basic level, the instincts. They have their amygdala. And the amygdala is the part of the brain that plays a primary role in emotional reactions, you know, thoughts triggering chemical releases from their amygdala. And our amygdala, I mean, we all have an amygdala. And ultimately what we're talking about here in terms of the market is emotion. And Eugene Schwartz, he simply stated that mass desire is the public spread of a private want. And, you know, wanting, you know, Eben Pagan, who, you know, Dean, you talk about Eben, he would point out, it's, it's the lack of having a thing. I mean, if you have something and you can't also want it, having something and wanting something, they're Two separate things. So if you have something, you may like it and enjoy it, but wanting for something creates a different visceral experience in the human conscious experience of reality. So Evan goes on to ask the question, how do you make someone want something? And actually, that's a pretty useful question. And it's worth thinking about, you know, and another question he asked is, what is value? It's another really important question that's worth thinking about, because these are the things that drive markets. Value, wanting, emotions. If I'm talking, if you want to say anything, you can totally interrupt me. It's fine.

Well, I'm just looking at how all these fit with our. With our acquisition profit activators. You know, we talk about selecting a single target market, and then, of course, everything is about understanding the conversation going on in the minds of that market. And the market is one person, by the way. Nobody has collective individual or collective emotional responses. Everybody has their own amygdala and their own response to things. That's why it's so important to, you know, narrow to a single target market. And then we bookend that process with understanding what they want and thinking about what would be a dream come true for that person. And I think that your. Because our profit activator, too, is compelling them to raise their hand. And what drives people being compelled to do something is that they want something. I think compelling, being compelled, driven by a desire, a want.

Absolutely.

Yeah. What.

Yeah.

I mean, what isn't one thing I want to do? And I want you to come back to the. To that exact thing, you know, because in the end of the day, I mean, I think marketing is applied psychology. And this is all about what's. What's going on in the human brain. And one thing you did start off with, Jer was talking about math. And I think that's really important because Gary Halbert said to me a long time ago, he's like, the business you're in is not the carpet cleaning business. You're in the arithmetic business. You're not in the web development business. You're in the arithmetic business. You rattled off, which I don't remember everything you said, but you're talking about cost per lead, cost per sale, cost per inquiry, employee metrics. You're talking about metrics and lifetime value and all that stuff. And you rattled off a whole bunch of things where I think people should go back and listen to what it is you said there. Like, the average business owner wouldn't even think of those things in a year that you rattled off in like 30 seconds. Because you're very clear, that's why. I mean, you spend so much time talking and strategizing and thinking through things and helping clients and people. And now our I love marketing listeners with directing them in this area is because you so get that it's not. Some people are like, oh yeah, marketing. You're just trying to sell stuff to people and those marketers, it's like, moron, you don't even know half of what's going on. Half. You don't even know 99.99% of what's going on underneath the surface. When you actually dis somebody that really is a good marketer and understand it, I mean, this is what a functioning, profitable business that helps and creates value for people actually needs to do in order to scale it, in order to make it work. Math is everything. You can have the best headline in the world, but it's like if you're not converting the right people in the right way profitably, if you don't know the lifetime value of a client, you're just not going to make decisions because you don't even know what decisions to make without knowing the math.

Absolutely. I mean, it's. If you're right, you can have everything wrong. But if your metrics and your. The math works out, it's all good. That's like the point of having a larger sale somewhere, something you could sell in the back end. I mean, you can have a loss later up front and you have the back end that makes up for anything you lose on the front end. But if you don't think that that's a plausible thing that you should be doing, well, you're not even going to think to do it. If you think, oh, I'm losing money on the. If you don't even know about back end, then you wouldn't even have that distinction. So of course, and that makes the.

Math work, is my point as an example. And I'll let people figure out they can read a lot of magazines and look, but I will be spending $108,000 next month on ads and magazines. And the vast majority of the people that are going to read and call and visit a website that I'm putting in those ads will never give me any money from that ad at the time that that ad is running. And most of them will never give me money for at least six months to a year. And the vast majority of those people that give me money, for everyone that does give me money, there will be 1,000 people that will opt in and go visit a website that will never ever give me money. But if I was just running those ads, thinking I was going to make a one step sale or flip people into my New York annual $25k event, which is the primary offering for those ads, then that's a whole different story. But the thing is, it's all about the metrics. And if I don't understand that, then I throw away 100 grand in advertising.

Yes, I agree with you 100%. And it's the most important distinction someone can make.

Yeah, people should pick up the copy of Success magazine if they want to see one of those ads. And then they can. But yeah, I'm going to be in all kinds of different from Fortune to Forbes to Inc. To you name it.

That's awesome.

Yeah.

Yeah.

So anyway.

All right, so let's get back to this.

Cool.

Emotional desires and what Dean was saying. Compelling. Because you are a student of human behavior, JR because as much as you studied marketing, you've read a ton of stuff on psychology and human behavior and you name it.

Well, what I was going to say is these desires or these wants or the fears or frustrations or anxieties or this is a good one. Secret yearnings. I mean, people have yearnings and things they won't tell anyone about. And if you can empathize with another human being and understand their position and actually understand, you can communicate with them in a totally different way or understanding their dreams. I mean, these emotions we all have that are, you know, triggered inside us during varying contextual experiences, during varying events we go through in our lives and more emotions that you could understand and have a word for. Because it's very difficult to have a feeling about something but not be able to put a word to it. It becomes difficult to understand. But you can have angers or angsts or annoyances, arousals, boredoms, disappointments, despairs. These are things that people go through, you know, disgusts, dreads, ecstasies, embarrassments, envies, guilts, griefs, euphorias, hatreds, hopes, hurts, hostilities, jealousies, joys, lonelinesses, loves, lusts, outrages, panics, passions, pities, pleasures, prides, regrets, remorses, sadnesses, shocks, sorrows, sufferings, surprises, terrors, worries. These are emotions. And I'm going to make an important point about why I even list those things off. First of all, if you don't have a language for something, it becomes very difficult to empathize, communicate with another human being about them. So if you have a market that's going through a panic, if you have A human being on the other end that you're going to communicate to and you don't understand what panic feels like, or you don't understand if they have a hatred about something. And you need to communicate and empathize with that human being. And you've never, you've never kind of thought about and felt really deeply what hatred is or hope. What is it? What does it feel like to hope, to have hope about something? These are real emotions that we go through. And there's. The people on the other end are really feeling these things. And you need to get in tune with these sorts of emotions. And what needs to be stated here is that you don't create these. They already exist in the human experience. And you can trigger and channel them, but you don't create them. And you know, of course, the crux of the issue is what Eugene Schwartz would talk about. And in the beginning of breakthrough advertising, he would say, and I have the quote here, the power, the force, the overwhelming urge to own that makes advertising work comes from the market itself and not from the copy. Copy cannot create desire for a product. It can only take the hopes, dreams, fears and desires that already exist in the hearts of millions of people and focus those already existing desires onto a particular product. This is the copywriter's task, not to create this mass desire, but to channel and direct it. And I would say any communicator, not just a copywriter, if you communicate with your family, if you communicate, it's so important to understand you're not creating those. And you know, he goes on, yeah, go ahead.

No, no, go ahead, go ahead.

No, no, you go ahead, I'll go there.

I think that that is, that that ties in perfectly with our thought of, of mice. You know, when we talk about your prospects being like mice, that mice come pre programmed with two prime directives to get cheese and avoid cats. And those, when you talk about those emotions, emotions are what compel action. And compelling is different than convincing because convincing is a very cerebral thing. But compelling somebody, it's not that you're compelling them, it's tapping into what they're already compelled to do is like the jet stream. You know, you get just this, this incredible current that's already moving in the direction of those desires, those emotions. And that's why, you know, we say that a compelling offer is 10 times more powerful than a convincing argument. And it's like a mouse. You don't have to convince a mouse to try some cheese. The mouse is compelled to try the cheese. You might have to convince a mouse to try some broccoli because they're not compelled to eat broccoli. Yeah.

I don't know. Mouse you've been hanging around with.

Let.

Me mention, you know that list you went through of emotions? I could tell you were reading them. So you have them alphabetically. Do you use that as like a swipe file or something when you sit and create?

Yeah, of course. Because it's so important to recognize what you're feeling in situations so that you can empathize with other people. Like if you. If you're going through something and you can't describe it, it's like, I just feel bad. I don't know what it is. But if you could say, oh, you know what? I feel like envy about someone. That's why I'm feeling this anger and this. And if you can pinpoint what you're feeling, it gives. You can communicate so much more effectively because you're empathizing with another human being. You're empathizing with what people are feeling. Yeah.

Okay, so you were talking about Eugene Schwartz, who. You know the book Breakthrough Advertising is Brilliant. You know what's so funny? We should actually sell that book on. I love marketing. You know, my friend in 25, Brian Kurtz from Borg, they are the publisher. They republished that book after they found it selling for $900 used on eBay. And it's a book that sells for $95 that you get. Can get from Boardroom Inc. We should figure out a way, Dean, to put a link up on.

Yeah, absolutely, we should.

But you were talking about Eugene Schwartz, and it's. And he's, of course, brilliant. So carry on.

Yeah. The only thing that I would add more about Eugene and what he was talking about in that book is that he actually talks about. This is so great. Every mass desired has three dimensions. It's just. See, what this gives you, by the way, is like a sort of a checklist to think about how to pick your target market, how to evaluate whether a target market is useful to get into or not, if it's going to have a monetary payoff, if you're going to have staying power in that market. And he talks about three dimensions of mass desire. He says, firstly, that there's urgency, intensity, and degree of demand to be satisfied. And he'd give the example of the difference between constant arthritic pain versus a minor headache. They have different urgencies, they have different intensities, and there's different demand to be satisfied. In those two examples, he'd say the Second thing that defines a mass desire would be staying power, degree of repetition, and the inability to become satiated. And the example he would give would be, you know, raw hunger versus a craving for gourmet food. I mean, the raw hunger comes back. It has a staying power about it. The craving food kind of, it's like, okay, I can only eat so much chocolate cake, right? And repetition, the hunger comes back. So he talking about staying power, degree of repetition, inability to become satiated. And the third factor or dimension of a mass desire is scope. You know, the number of people who share the desire. And he would give the example of the number of men willing to pay $10 for an automotive accessory that saves gas versus, you know, those willing to pay the same amount but for one that prevents repair bills. So if you can think about your market in terms of those dimensions, you can get a gauge on how successful or how unsuccessful it might be, your pursuit might be. And so what we're really talking about then here is emotions driving human reactions and behaviors. And, Dean, you talked about human reactions. I mean, Robert Collier talked about this in his book, the Robert Collier Letter Book. I remember reading, actually the Robert Collier Letter Book, and I was thinking about human reaction. Like, oh, my God, people were talking about this back in 19. What was the Robert Collier letter book written like, 1950 or 19?

Yeah, I think it was early.

It was 1950, 1930.

No, I think that one was written in the 50s. I mean, I can go grab the thing. It's in my fridge.

No, no, no, that's fine. But it just blew my mind that, you know, the stuff that we're trying to figure out here, there's a whole litany of super, incredibly intelligent and astute marketers who have been thinking about this stuff for a long time. And, you know, Robert Collier, in the Robert Collier Letter Book, you would say the one thing that should always be born in the mind is that it's not merchandise you're selling, but human nature, human reactions. And he says, a knowledge of your product is essential, of course, but familiarity with human reactions, human response to familiar stimuli is even more important. The one constant factor in selling is human reactions. And then he goes on to say, you see, the product is of minor importance. There was scarcely a man in the whole place who did not know more about raincoats than I. But it was not raincoats we were selling. It was an idea. In this case, the idea that by specializing on one grade of coat, one cloth, one style, and making it in every conceivable size we would not only save you money, but give you a better coat and a more perfect fit than you can get at double the price in stores. We did not need to know anything about coat manufacturing to convince you that all we needed to understand was human reactions to certain ideas. And these are what we studied. And of course, see, here's the point we can talk about. I'll rattle off things you can talk about. Add ons and upsells and down sells and back end and front end and point of purchase sales and closing techniques and increasing the frequency of purchase and increasing conversion, improving sales cycles and compet analysis and irresistible offers and referral systems and follow up systems and hiring systems and account management, time management, team training and outbound communications and prospecting and sequence campaigns and list acquisition strategies and increasing the average transaction size of a purchase or public relations and using special events or education based marketing, or using newsletters and autoresponders and blogs, client communications and retention strategies or loyalty strategies and packaging strategies and price strategies and strategic alliances, joint ventures, the direct mail and all sorts of guarantees. You can have double your money back guarantee, triple your money back guarantee. You know, we could talk about proof elements that you know that increase believability, like using specifics and reason why and demonstrations. It's all part of the deal. It's all part of marketing, but without gaining.

Wait, wait, let me. Go ahead, tell me you're reading all that off somewhere. That's not all the top of your head, is it?

No, I'm reading the list. Okay, good.

Because I already know that JR is like a super genius. I mean truly like. I mean, I talk to him all the time and he's always like just, you know, brilliant. But I'm like sitting there guy like, are you really cading all this in your head or is that okay? That's good. And not only is he smart, he's well prepared. What do you think of that, Dean?

Yeah, it's fantastic.

But that's a useful list anyways, if you're thinking about what are the constituent parts of marketing. Marketing. But I bring that up not to give you the parts of marketing, but to say that if you don't get into the psychology that we're talking about here, it's like being human but unconscious. I mean, when you're unconscious, you exist, your body's like there, but not much is happening. But if you deeply understand and revere the psychology of marketing, it gives consciousness to what is an otherwise lifeless, like a lifeless activity. So understanding what drives human reactions is critical. It's really not enough just to know some techniques. If you're really going to study marketing, I mean, if you don't care, then that's one thing. But if you want to become a pro like Dean or Joe, you got to really take this stuff seriously. And, Joe, you've actually made a comment to me about stuffed animals. This is great, you said. And this is about psychology. Again. You had said people think of them, that they're cute and cuddly and so forth. And you mentioned that they're sewed up. Lint, I think, is the wording you use. Sounds like something I would say, but that's what they are. There's some textiles stuffed with soft material. But when you fashion the design of these everyday materials into a sight and a somasthetic experience, like a feeling experience, that triggers and evokes innate human emotions. And if you think of, like, adding greed to it and exclusivity, like, I don't know, maybe something like Beanie Babies, it's no longer a stuffed animal. It becomes something else. It's not just material anymore. So the thing we're really concerned with here is emotions and triggering human reactions and the elements and the stimuli and the communications and ideas and the things that drive these emotions and humans and free actions. And of course, you talked about before you said the words. What we're talking about here is applied psychology.

Huh?

I mean, I. We have. We all have it. We have mental and emotional algorithms, heuristics, biases. If you take, for example, something like confirmation bias, okay? Where you have a tendency. We have a tendency. Every human who, you know has confirmation bias has a tendency to favor information that confirms the belief that the individual has. And let's say we have a secret belief that there's an easy way to make money. Well, if we come across a communication or headline that's fashioned by a master marketer or a master copywriter, and it says, is it immoral to make money this easily? I mean, do you think that you might want to read that article because it contains the confirmation of your secret belief? I mean. Yeah. And that. And that headline, by the way, was by Eugene Schwartz. And now that. That's the sort of application of psychology that gets results. And of course, results are money, and that's the result you want.

What do you think of that, Dean?

I think it really is. It's fascinating.

I think we should just have Jared do the I love marketing episodes from now on.

That would be great, wouldn't it?

Let's.

We could take.

I Think he's smarter than both of us combined.

Well, who do you think I learned all this stuff from? It's from you guys. I mean, that's wording it from.

Well, mostly me, not Dean. I don't want to give Dean.

I would also say, like. Like, if you learn and understand these biases and the heuristics and mental algorithms that, you know, explain heuristics, it's something that you automatically go to. It's something that you have, like a pathway in your mind that when this happens, I do this, and you don't even think about it. It's unconscious. It's a way that you operate. It's like a mental algorithm is what I talk about. It's like, you know, it's A happens, then I'm going to do B. And you don't even think about it. It's subconscious and. But if you.

So that's the homework for everyone. Look up heuristics. I can never even pronounce that word. It's spelled H E U R I S T I C S. And I'm saying that mostly for our transcriber versus anyone.

Go to Wikipedia and look up confirmation biases. Look up biases. I mean, look them up and. Because these are the things that are driving us subconsciously and consciously, and they're what drive our lives. And I know there's someone listening. Well, not me, because I'm smarter than that. That. Don't get it twisted. They run your life. They run all of our lives. No one's immune to what Charlie Munger, who runs Berkshire Hathaway with Warren Buffett, he would talk about them as psychological misjudgment. And Charlie Munger, he lays out 25 standard causes of human misjudgment and things like authority, misinfluence and contrast, misreaction and deprival and over optimism. And there's 21 others. You not only become more aware if you understand these things, if you really take them to heart and you see them in yourself and you see them in other people, and you empathize and go, oh, wow, these are things that control me in a way, and they're useful for understanding and empathizing people and ultimately becoming a better marketer. Not only do you become more aware of, you know, the mental maneuverings and if someone's a charlatan, the manipulations or the massaging that other people in businesses are delivering to you in their communications, but you protect yourself from, like I was saying, rogues and charlatans, which is a J. Abraham wording that they may try and steer you in a poor direction. So it's very. It affects your whole life. This is not just a marketing conversation. This is. This is something very important to you and the people around you.

Yeah. You know, one thing I failed to mention also is, I believe, Jarrah, that you have probably read everything by Warren Buffett, from the Berkshire Hathaway reports to books written about him and Charles Munger, Charlie Munger, and you're really into that. And I'd like to ask you, which is sort of an aside in the study of all of this, why are you fascinated with individuals like that and their perspectives of, you know, like the. Charlie's 25 standard causes human misjudgment. You know, I mean, what. What is it about your brain that. That. That is drawn to that?

I like their ethos. I like the message that they. I don't know them personally, but everything I've experienced from reading Charlie and Warren is just. These are two very smart and astute, and I'd use the word ethical. I don't know them personally, but I would say ethical individuals and at the very least have a message and an ethos that they present to young people that is just, I don't know, it's worth listening to. And I think they've done pretty well for themselves. So there's something to be said about looking at success and trying to, you know, say, why were these individuals successful? I think they have the right ethos. I think that that's what it is. I'm just drawn to it. I like that they're smart and they have an intelligent way of thinking about things.

Yeah, yeah. And you know what. And I hear you that those guys are. You're talking about. There's a difference between. I call them applied scientists versus theoretical scientists, you know.

Sure. That.

But you're talking about Charlie Munger and Warren Buffett, who, in an applied way, have become the most successful investors in the history of the world. And you're talking about Eugene Schwartz and Robert Collier, who are sharing applied learning of applying all of the things that they have done and discerning what the wisdom from that is. There's so much that goes into that. There's an old saying in the. A man with an experience is never at the mercy of a man with an idea. And if you've experienced something and you have real knowledge of how something works, that's way different than a theoretical understanding or speculation as to what might happen.

Absolutely. And, you know, by the way, I Mean, you don't think Charlie read Cialdini.

Of course, a lot of what he learned. And there's another guy, Robert Cialdini, you look at. That's where I look at things. I have this bookshelf on my, in my office that are, you know, I have what I call wisdom books. And wisdom books are books like that, like the ones that are based on real experiences.

Absolutely. That's actually a pretty useful term. Wisdom books. I like that. And I should just point out, by the way, I failed to mention this, if you're listening to this, I'm under the impression, because we're talking a lot about like massaging emotions and manipulation. I'm under the impression that if you're listening as you offer and you sell and you and you bring to market something that's valuable and you yourself are ethical and you follow what Joe talks about when he refers to ethical marketing and ethical persuasion. So if that's the case, then again, I'll paraphrase another person, John Carlton, he says, shame on you if you don't do everything you can to put your product or service into your customer's hands. But I'm thinking people listening to this, they're ethical. So that's why we're talking about these kinds things of, of they're ethically sticky situations, I think is how Evan would word it. I mean, because you're talking about emotions, you're talking about real experiences that people go through. And it's very easy to do things that would be unethical and you have to hold yourself to a higher standard and just definitely not associate with and definitely not do things that would. You want to make people better off than how you found them. You want to help people be better off than how you found them. That's ultimately what we're trying to do here when we provide value to people.

Let me mention some on that. It's an important key too, because we know, just like in my Selling Evil video, you can use marketing to rob people or you can use it as self defense, you can use it to lead people to solutions. There's lots of different ways a hammer in someone's hand can hammer in a nail or it can do a lot of damage. So it depends on how someone yields and wields the tool. And basically one of the things that I loved about direct response early on is the fact that you could position people in advance based on establishing robotic trust. Meaning there was no Internet when I first started, so the use of free recorded messages, consumer awareness guides, which me and Dean have talked about in depth on previous issues of I Love Marketing and if people are new to I Love Marketing, go back and listen to past episodes. There's so much useful strategies that we talk about. I thought it was the most ethical thing that I could ever do selling my carpet cleaning services, which is where I first applied the use of direct response marketing simply by educating people in advance because it was completely non threatening and if I just taught them how to make an informed buying decision they would most likely do business with me because I would be positioned as an advisor and someone that is there to serve them versus just someone that is there to sell themselves something. The sheer application of how me this is a good time to do a refresher on the eight profit activators. The first one is narrow your focus, select a single target market one at a time. The second one is use direct response offers to compel prospects to do business with you to call you. The third profit activator is patient and systematically educate and motivate the prospects to meet you when they're ready to meet you. The fourth activator is present your unique service offer in a way that makes it easy to get started. See, a lot of this has to do with how you present and how you offer it up to people. These are not scummy selling methodologies. Number five is deliver a dream come true experience design from your client's perspective. This is where going into the before, during and after unit of your business. If you are just using marketing to sell something that people may want or may not want, but do it in manipulative ways, then you have to start thinking about delivering the dream come true experience that completely shifts how you interact with people. So the 6 profit activator is provide after sales service even after you've already been paid. Meaning after people give you money, continue to deliver value by doing so. That will go on the profit activator number seven which is where you nurture lifetime relationships and focus on lifetime value. And then profit activator number eight is you orchestrate referrals by giving your clients the opportunity to feel great. So all of those eight profit activators are all designed about using marketing in the most value creating ethical ways humanly possible while simultaneously knowing that if you build it they will come. Only works in the fantasy world or only works when you are actually really lucky and you don't have supply and demand on their side because people always can point to oh see someone just built this and then they got flocks of people. Well yeah I can show you a lot of well intentioned people that did build a better mousetrap that no one showed up for. You know, and there you go.

That 1 million percent.

In the whole there you go was like you guys didn't know if I was going to continue to say something, but I just forces someone else to have I do that quite a bit. I don't know if people notice that episode. Amen.

Preach these state. Yeah.

All right.

So.

All right. So what's the boy, you know, J.R. you're on a roll. So what else?

What else is all I have, really. You know, I have. There's two things that I want to. I could talk about here. One of them is just, I'll say it's a way of thinking about marketing. And it's like when you get into marketing, you understand the depths of psychology and marketing. This is the level you can get to. And I'll talk to that. And then the second thing is something that everyone listening. Yeah, go ahead.

Hold on. You talked to that. I want to just put something out there. I know it's right in the middle. Well, we're getting towards the end of this episode, but I just want to put it out there. Would you be available? And Dean, we can just summarize what Jer had to say on this one on the next episode. But I'm almost thinking we should do the next episode with Junior.

That'd be great.

What do you think? Are you okay with that?

Yeah, perfect. Okay.

Because, I mean, there's so much you can keep going and there's so much I'd like to speak to on this. But I mean, we're, you know, I think we've got maybe like, you know, six minutes left or something to get to the hour and then maybe more. We might have a little bit more time than that, but, you know, basically. So you up for that, jr?

Yeah, absolutely. We could do anything. Anything for you. I mean, obviously. Perfect.

Well, let's keep rolling then. Man, this will be like a double whammy for everyone listening. I mean, they're going to get more freaking. I mean, you don't have to read like 4,000 books in order to. You just need to listen to a couple episodes of I Love Marketing. Then out of sheer gratitude for all of this wisdom and us introducing smart people like JR to you to help you make money and get your head screwed on straight. Just send us checks. Big checks, as you would say. As you would say, Jared.

Yes, dosh. I do say that a lot. I got that from Sheila Dennis, which his book is.

It's not even about getting checks anymore. Just go ahead and. Direct deposit checks are a hassle.

Okay, so go ahead. So you're saying before I rudely interrupted.

Well, since we have six minutes left. Well, now it's five. I'll just, I'll give. I'll say one more interesting thing. I hope it's interesting at least. I heard this really amazing example of subtle psychology and subtle persuasion. Subtle marketing. Every time I feel like every time I mention Evan Pagan. Dean wants to say something about Evan, but it was from Evan Pagan and it was so. I have to say, it was so smart when I heard it, I'm like, oh my God, this guy understands marketing. The example that he gave in one of his marketing seminars was about John Cables and the ad, the famous John Caples ad. The headline was they laughed when I sat down at the piano, but when I started to play. So that was the headline of an ad that John Caples wrote for a correspondence course on music. And when most marketers see that headline, because you'll see it reused and swiped, like, you know, they laughed when I got up to the T, but when I hit a fair 400 yard drive all the way down the. You know, so it's that sort of thing, they swipe like the idea, or you'll hear them say, you know, it's the story that made the ad successful. But what Evan explained, and this is so brilliant, the headline, if you read it, they laughed when I sat down at the piano bowl and I started to play. Laughed. So what is laughter? Laughter communicates something. I mean, if I laugh at something you say and we're laughing together, like you and me, we're bonding. We're like, we're friends with one another. If I give you the example of there's a silhouette of human beings and there's one who's excluded from the group on the outside, and everyone's pointing and laughing. You understand what that means? There's something about human nature where you understand what laughter is communicating. And laughter communicates a status. It communicates status. So in the ad, they're talking about status. And when he started to play, he was accepted into the group. So John Caples wasn't selling a music correspondence course. He was selling higher status. And, you know, Evan explains all this. It's so terrific because it's so subtle and totally what Evan would call elusive, obvious, the nature of that type of marketing.

But if you understand, everyone would call elusive, obviously.

No, no. What Eben would call.

Yeah, oh, Okay, I thought you said that every.

Okay, so, Evan, I'm like, going. I don't think anyone would call that elusive audience except you and Eben.

That's the level that if you're taking marketing seriously, you catch on to those things. Another example of really. You read it and you go, brilliant. Absolutely brilliant. Is actually one of Dean's websites. Stop your divorce. What else is going on in the mind of someone who's going through a divorce? I wish I could just stop this divorce. It's perfect. It's like it connects perfectly with what someone's going through. And it's that. So you're. When someone comes up with something like that, they understand marketing and psychology and persuasion and empathy. They empathize with another human being at a different level to and to come up with stop. Three words. It's three words. Stop your divorce. But it's so perfectly aligned with what's going on. Dream come true for the target audience.

Yeah, you know, you want to hear, like, this is. And this is like, we could do three episodes just on this one concept, but why don't I tell this story and then we'll go on to the next episode and we'll continue on with the story. But here's the thing, you guys, You've all seen that. You've seen the Jif peanut butter commercials. Now, how can you get emotion involved in choosing a peanut butter? And here's how you do it. You know, you picture the scenario of who's making the buy decision. First of all, it's the moment, when are they going to use the peanut butter? Who eats peanut butter? Kids eat peanut butter. So you're creating this tension where the little girl has invited another little girlfriend over for a sleepover and things aren't going well, and mom comes in with the peanut butter sandwiches and everything's okay. Now you think about status there, you know, subtly, elusively playing into the status there that what is a mom's worst nightmare? That she is thought of by the other mothers as untrustworthy or that the other mothers don't like? It's a status thing that one mother will feel comfortable enough entrusting her young daughter to go over and have a sleepover at this other daughter's house because she trusts the mother. So they show that story that every mother can relate to. And on a really deep psychological level, they're terrified of not being accepted by the other mothers. Can you imagine being mortified if their little girl that they're having as a guest is having such a bad time? That she has to call her mother to come and pick her up. How that reflects on the other mother. And so they paint that picture, share that story, and then they end with the words moms like you choose Jif. Now, well, you just let those words echo in your mind for a second because there's so many phonetic subtleties going on in that. Moms like you choose jif. I mean, the whole when they do print advertising, it's choosy moms like you choose Jeff. So you're like the other mothers. Now, that's what the other mothers do. They're applauding you for being choosy. Choosy moms like you choose Jif. Now, the embedded command, of course, is you choose jif. I mean, this is like a masterwork of truly understanding the deep psychology and status need in a mother.

My God, that's so terrific. I mean, you. Because you're talking about embedded commit. What worked? You know, Korshipski, when you talk about neuro linguistics, we're really talking about taking an impoverished map about psychology and these subtle things and creating a rich map for yourself about human nature and it. And that aligns with reality and to whatever degree possible has some semblance of accuracy. That Jeff example. Oh, my God. Wow.

Tune in next week for the exciting.

Conclusion of this two part episode with jr. Can we just end it like that, Joe? That would be exciting right there.

Yeah, we can end like that with the recommendation that you're better off from a health standpoint eating almond butter than Jif Tiny.

But okay, there you go. This public service announcement brought to you by Joe Polish.

And in the meantime, before this episode, if you need to just visit. I mean, if you are so compelled to see this put into action in so many of the ways that JR has outlined and will outline on the next episode of I Love Marketing. Just pop on over to myinsaneoffer.com and take yourself a little gander and look at that.

What's that website again?

I think it's my insane offer.com?

Insane offer.

Okay, I forgot it. Can someone repeat it? I just. I forgot what it was.

Maybe we could put a link. Yeah, you're awesome. You're awesome. So let's. Thank you. And yeah, you're. This is exciting, everybody.

You're going to wish that it wasn't a week away until we get back to this episode, but we'll be here and we'll see you next week, same time.

And I will tell you. Listen to this. Listen to this episode twice. Share it with anyone that has trouble understanding why you love marketing and what it is you're trying to learn. Because there is a smorgasbord of stuff that JR mentioned. You can listen to this in slow motion and it would still be like 10 times more stuff than the typical conversation about marketing. So great stuff, Jer. I really loved it. So look forward to part two on the next episode of ilovemarketing. Com.