The One With Arianna Huffington - I Love Marketing With Joe Polish And Dean Jackson - Episode #148

I'm dean jackson, he's joe polish, and this is the I love marketing podcast. Hello, this is Joe Polish with Genius Network, and I want to have you think about success. What does success mean to you? Everybody has a definition, and it's individual. For many people, the world really looks at power and money as a form of success. But my friend Arianna Huffington has a different definition. She has a thing called the third metric. And I'm going to interview her on the subject of her new book, which is called Thrive. Arianna Huffington is the chair, president and editor in Chief of the Huffington Post Media Group, a nationally syndicated columnist and author of 14 books. In May 2005, she launched the Huffington Post, a news and blog site that quickly became one of the most widely read, linked to, and frequently cited media brands on the Internet. In 2012, the site won a Pulitzer Prize for national reporting. In 2013, she was named to the Forbes Most Powerful women list. In 2006, and again in 2011, she was named to the Time 100, Time magazine's list of the world's hundred most influential people. Originally from Greece, she moved to England when she was 16 and graduated from Cambridge University with an MA in economics. At 21, she became president of the famed debating society the Cambridge Union. She serves on several boards, including El Pace Preca, the Center for Public Integrity, and the Committee to Protect Journalists. Now join me with Arianna. Hello, this is Joe Polish, and I'm here with my friend, Arianna Huffington.

How are you, Joe? It's great to be with you.

It's so good to be here with you. So we're here in New York. We're going to talk about your new book, which is Thrive. Look at this. You need to get this immediately. The third metric to redefining success and creating a life of well being, wisdom, and wonder. So this is your 14th book?

Yes.

Why'd you write it?

Well, it was like the surprise baby. I had promised myself, my children, everybody who cared for me that I would never write another book because it's always been so stressful and filled with deadlines and sleep deprivation, all the things I was trying to avoid. And then I gave a commencement speech at Smith where I talked about the need to redefine success and move beyond the first two metrics of money and power, because so many people, including very successful people, were just completely burned out. And instead of finding happiness in success, they're undermining their health, their relationships, et cetera. The same happened to me, incidentally. So I was suddenly inundated with all these offers to write a book, and my agent had to sell it to me first. And finally he did. And I promised myself I would write it in a different way, and I did. It was a book which I wrote without the same kind of sense of stress and pressure that book writing has had for me before. So at least I proved to myself that it can't be done in another way.

Right, okay, so you're literally wanting to redefine the definition of success because you basically say in the book, and you talk about this in your third metric conferences that people can find online if they just look for it, that the definition that we currently have, that people look at money and power, is what success is. And you're saying this is wrong and it's destroying people.

It is, and we have the evidence to prove it. We have 75% of health care costs in America are because of preventable chronic stress related diseases. And I'm talking about heart disease, diabetes, high blood pressure, etc. Etc. And women are particularly susceptible to it because we internalize stress differently. You know, you guys are better at handling it than we are. So women in stressful jobs have a 40% greater risk of heart disease and a 60% greater risk of diabetes. So I call this the third women's movement. You know, the first was to give us the vote. The second was to give us equal access to every job at every level, equal pay, et cetera. And it's still an ongoing process. We're not done yet. And the third one, though, which is absolutely urgent, is to make sure that we change the world in which we are competing. Because it's not working for women, it's not working for men, it's not working for polar bears. It's not sustainable. And we are all, in some way or another, paying a price. You know, I start the book with my own wake up call.

Yeah, talk about that when you literally collapsed in 2007.

I literally collapsed in 2007 and hit my head on the way down on my desk, broke my cheekbone, got four stitches on my right eye. And then nobody knew exactly what was wrong with me medically. So I found myself going from MRI to echocardiogram to test after test. And doctors waiting rooms, it turns out, are good places to ask yourself the big questions. What am I doing? What is a good life? Is this really success? By conventional definitions of success, I was successful. I was on the Time 100 list and I was on the COVID of magazines. But by any sense, definition of success, I was clearly not successful. So that's what started me on this journey that was April 6, 2007.

Do you think someone needs to have literally hit bottom or one of these? Do you see people typically change without having a heart attack or having some sort of major breakdown?

I think yes, when the culture changes. So that's why I'm an evangelist for this now. I want people to change and I believe there is a collective longing to change without having painful wake up calls, often much worse than mine, often life threatening wake up calls. And that's why I believe that by putting together three things, my own personal journey, the information about how the world is changing. I mean, 2013 was the year when we had the coming out of CEOs, not as gay, but as being meditators. You know, literally. Marc Benioff of Salesforce and Mark Bertolini, the CEO of Aetna, the third largest health insurance company in America, who came out and said that after his. He broke his neck during a skiing accident and after being hooked on narcotics, he discovered meditation, yoga and acupuncture. And it transformed his life. Immediately made them available to his 49,000 employees, and then brought Duke University to study the results. And they found a 7% reduction in health care costs and a 69 minute improvement in productivity a day.

Wow.

So that is my second, the second sort of thread in the book. What are people doing that is advancing our lives in terms of thriving and not just succeeding? And the third one is all the scientific studies. There have been amazing scientific studies about the importance of sleep on our health, our productivity, our creativity. Practically every university now is having a sleep division of meditation on our creativity. So this is not like a trade off. It's not like we're saying, you know, be serene and peaceful and check out of life. On the contrary, what science proves is that the more we actually connect with our own center and our own essence, the more effective we're going to be in the world.

Right, Right. Well, you know, I gotta show you this too. Like, here's the original uncorrected proof copy that I got of Thrive, which I read cover to cover. And I've got just notes all over it everywhere.

Oh, that means so much. Thank you.

So what I wrote after reading the whole book, I had that song Looking for love in all the wrong places. I wrote that up here. And I was like, you know, that's kind of, to me, is where people are. They're looking for this connection through overwhelming work. And I say this from experience because as a driven, neurotic entrepreneur who has pursued money and power and success, you know, and all with, you know, value creation. I mean, you know, I've thousands of happy clients. We've done a tremendous amount of good work in the world. But the sacrifices that I. And almost all successful people that I know, quote unquote successful, if you really like, what is success? What I really like about thrive is you make people just by showing them. I mean, is this really success? I mean, is losing relationships, is losing your health, is not getting enough sleep? Is it worth the money and the power? I mean, you can't really win if that's the only thing there. And so you've really created a blueprint on how to win. But it's looking for love in all the wrong places.

I love that. It's so true. It's also a little bit like the old experiment with rats in the 50s, when even after they would no longer get any cheese, when they push the lever, they would still keep doing it. Sort of the expectation is, oh, there must be some more cheese there, even though, hey, there's no cheese coming out. Got it.

Yeah.

And the other moment that made me realize, you know, how wrongly we often lead our lives is when I was at a friend's memorial and I was listening to the eulogy, and it suddenly dawned on me that eulogies are not like resumes. You know, eulogies are not like our LinkedIn profile.

Right.

You know, they're not about. Have you ever heard a eulogy that said, you know, Joe was amazing, he increased market share by one third. Oh, you know, Mary, she made SVP at 35. Eulogies are always about the other stuff. You know, how we made people feel, did we make people laugh? You know, what were our values, our passions, our kindnesses? And so shouldn't we be spending a little more time giving the people who are going to eulogize us a little material?

Right, right. No, that's great. That's great. Well, and it took some. It took you falling down and literally breaking your cheekbone in order for you to take a look at this. And so hopefully, through thrive, you know, the people that are out there watching this will pick this up, they will read it, and they will take it really seriously. Because when we first started talking about this, you know, one of the things is changing the global conversation. And you are a person, as an evangelist that has the exposure, that has the ability to really introduce people into something. And you speak from experience, too. You're not just a really successful person that says, oh, everyone should take better care of their Health. I mean, you've lived through this. Yeah.

And actually, since my collapse at the Huffington Post, we now have 26 sections covering these issues, including an amazing sleep section for anybody who is watching, who is having trouble sleeping, full of tips and tools. And that's the other thing, Joe. I wanted the book to be really practical. I don't want people to read the book and say, she's right. I agree with her. That's not success for me in terms of this book. I want people to say, okay. And she's giving me these small steps that I can take to change, to make small changes. I'm not talking about transforming one's life overnight. I'm Talking about getting 30 minutes more sleep every day than you are getting now. Unless you are one of the very few people who are getting enough sleep right now.

That's very few. Most people are completely sleepwalking.

But, like, 30 minutes, you know, surely everybody has 30 minutes or, you know, meditating for five minutes, even if you don't know what the hell that is. You know, just like allowing yourself the opportunity to experience something in ourselves where we can always return in times of stress, you know, like the eye of the hurricane.

Right.

So have a personal connection with people. You know, in the giving chapter. I think giving is such an important part of well being, and now they have science to prove it. Some of the happiest people are people who give naturally and easily. And that doesn't mean leaving your job, getting on a plane, going to Rwanda to open an orphanage. I mean, it's fantastic when people do that. But I'm talking about when you go and get a coffee in the morning, do you acknowledge the barista? You know, do you have a personal connection with that person? Or do you walk through life treating people like vehicles to bring you whatever you want? You know, it's a small thing, but it changes the way we approach our day.

I totally agree. I mean, I love the saying, life gives to the giver and takes from the taker. And people that are rude to waiters, people that just don't open the doors, people that don't say. I mean, just the simple common things like saying thank you. And what I love about the way you describe it in terms of giving, where you even address, well, people think you have to donate money. Well, what if I don't have any money? And you talk about all the different ways that you can be a contributor and how by contributing to others, it doesn't just contribute to them, it actually really helps you. And the cool thing about behaving that way. There's this cliche which is be nice to the people you meet on the way up. They're the same people you meet on the way down. And early on, I heard that very early in my career and you run into the same people 10 or 20 years years later. And if you're a total jerk along the way, people don't like you. I mean, you don't build up, you know, a lot of equity by being a jerk. And so just simply being pleasant is just, you know, I mean, even if, even if deep down inside you feel like a jerk, you're just going to get more benefit.

Yeah, I believe in fake it until you make it. I think even if you feel like a jerk, if you begin to behave in kind ways, it's going to change you. Because ultimately I think we are all a mixture and it depends on which part of ourselves we feed. You know, if we feed the part of ourselves that connects with people, that basically is present in our life and that reaches out to strangers, then we're going to become that person.

Right.

If we feed the misanthrope the other part, then we'll become that person. And you know, it's very blessed joy to have a mother who lived a third metric life. Before I knew what a third metric life was. And you know, we had no money, we lived in a one room apartment in Athens. My mother had a sense of abundance that went beyond our circumstances. And part of that was she was always giving to people. She was always offering food, she was always offering her time. And I really, I thought about that. However successful we are, when we are going after our goals, even if our goal is another billion dollars, whatever we are operating from lack like we want something. When we're giving, we're operating from abundance. And so immediately it changes the way we approach life because we are feeling that natural abundance which I think is available to all of us. But so often we are constantly looking at what we want next rather than what we have now.

Right, right. Well, you talk a lot about your mother in the book. I mean, there's some great sayings that she had. I'd love to have you share a couple of the insights. And you literally tell such a beautiful story about when she passed away. I mean, it's pretty incredible. So talk about your mom because obviously she was such a huge influence on you.

She was. The book is dedicated to her. And I say that in a way this book is a homecoming for me because when she lived that life, when, for example, while I was rushing, rushing, rushing. She had that timeless rhythm. You know, going to the farmer's market with her was like an exercise in patience because she would connect with everybody, selling anything. She would make a personal, intimate connection. She would be totally present. And now that she's gone, I just feel that I need to embody these qualities myself. It's not enough to have. When my mother was there, it was almost like, well, if I'm living with the Iron Chef, I don't need to learn to cook.

Right, Right.

So now I need to learn to embody all these qualities. And, you know, she. When she died, and as I described in the book, the moment, you know, she. When she fell, she knew that this was the end, but she didn't want us to know because she didn't want us to take her to the hospital she had been in and out of with a heart condition. She wanted to die at home. And I talk a lot about death in the book because so often we don't talk about it. It's the one thing that unites us all. You know, as the Onion headline said, death rate holds steady at 100%. And yet we don't talk about it.

Right.

And I feel if we talk about it not in a morbid way, but in a way of realizing that worrying about the little things makes no sense, you know, when we know that sooner or later this life ends. So do we really want to worry about every little thing that happens? Or worse, worry about the future? Because a lot of people don't even worry about what has happened. They worry about what may happen. And I love, you know, Montaigne, the French writer who said, there are many terrible things in my life, but most of them never happened.

Right, right. Well, you know, why do you think overwork and burnout and lack of sleep are really viewed by a lot of people as a badge of honor? I mean, why do you think? Why does that exist? It's become a cultural thing.

Because I think our culture is fueled by this idea that in order to succeed, you have to work 24 7. And when you are very busy, it means you are very important. And so we forget to really nurture ourselves along the way. And often, as we succeed, the first things that go are things that help nurture and sustain us because we feel we don't have time for that. You know, you hear people say, I sleep when I die.

That's kind of silly. They're going to die quicker.

Yeah, exactly. And now we have the evidence that shows that people will die quicker. But Also, I don't enjoy my life when I'm tired. Like if I wake up and go through my day like a zombie, I'm not going to. I want to enjoy my life. You know, here's the thing. I don't want just to be effective. I want to really feel grateful and relish, you know, what is around me and what is in front of me and feel how blessed I am. You know, everybody has horrible things happening in their life, some worse than others. Everybody faces challenges, but so often we don't focus on the good things. That sense of gratitude is a very big part of thrive.

Well, and you actually, on every chapter, you give people specific strategies on what to do, rituals, things, and they're not complicated. I mean, this really is a game changing book. Anyone that reads this and will take it seriously, even semi seriously, is going to get tremendous benefits. So I'd love to kind of break down some of the points and then people, you need to pick up the book, read it. You can go very deep with all the areas, but you talk about well being, wisdom, wonder and giving. So let's talk a little bit about each one and how you encompassed it as thrive.

So well being is obvious because we look around and we see people who are so stressed, they overeat, they under sleep, they do the things that undermine their health and we see that all around us and we can do small, small things to course correct that have a huge difference. I mean, when I went from getting say five hours sleep to getting seven to eight hours sleep, that was huge.

What did you do? I mean, what did you actually do?

I actually made it a priority. And you know, there are always things, you know, life always will say, this is important and this is important. You must worry about this and you must worry about that. And we need to sort of turn to life and say, no, this is important. You know, I'm important. So I'm going to prioritize that. And sometimes it means leaving a dinner early, sometimes it means not going somewhere. But I would rather be rested and renewed and recharged. And then of course, we have technology. I write a lot in the chapter about the impact of technology, which has been in many ways incredibly positive, but also incredibly dangerous when it comes to our addiction to technology. So we have now people who cannot disconnect. And it starts with small tips. One of the tips in the well being chapter is never put your devices by your bed when you sleep. Joe, do you have your devices by your bed?

I swear I do not. I always leave my. I Have an iPhone and I leave it downstairs because I know if it's anywhere near me, it has a magnetic force that just pull. I mean, I really think this is for not all people, but for many people definitely, like myself, it is literally beyond willpower. It has a pull to it. I mean, technology is addictive. I mean, people cannot stop. And once you get so programmed into it, it makes it even harder and harder. So you have to take, you know, it's kind of like leaving alcohol around for an alcoholic. I mean, you just want to drink. Yeah. So I don't keep any phone, but.

You know, that's rare.

Yeah.

Because whenever I speak, I ask my audience and the majority of people put their phone by their bed and one of their excuses is they needed to wake up in the morning. Right. So I tell them, Pottery Barn, $35, a great looking vintage alarm clock that can wake you up in the morning. But we need to be smart because as we say, otherwise you wake up in the middle of the night, for whatever reason, you're going to be tempted to look at your data.

Exactly.

So that's like a small, tiny step, but hugely significant in how renewed and recharged we are in the morning. In the same way, when you wake up, can you just take five minutes before you go to your iPhone, just five minutes to sort of set your intention for the day, to just gather yourself, the iPhone will be there.

Right, Exactly. Yeah. Well, and one ritual, which I did an interview with earlier today is I started doing a transcendental meditation starting last year. And so now most mornings, I will do it first thing that I do when I wake up, unless I just can't get it in, then I'll do it later.

And that's another very important thing on this journey. Let's say you say most mornings on the morning when you don't do it. Here's what is important. Not to judge yourself for not doing it. Because that's the vicious cycle people get to. They start, like good new habits. And like all of us, you know, we're not 100% there. And then we judge ourselves. And judging ourselves is one of the most negative, toxic things we can do. Because of course, it immediately translates to judging others.

Yeah, yeah, exactly.

So just accepting that we are imperfect human beings and we'll do the best we can, and if we miss the day today, we'll do it tomorrow, et cetera, et cetera.

Well, you know what's interesting about that is that probably the people that drive themselves the most also are the most self Critical. The ones that probably achieve tremendous amounts really think they're not achieving enough. And so they do judge themselves continuously. And it gets in a vicious cycle that's very important.

Well, I call it the obnoxious roommate living in our head. That voice in our head that puts us down, judges us, tells us we're not good enough. And that's a voice that we all need to grapple with and, and learn to sort of put it in its proper place, you know, like a child.

Yep, yep. Well, talking. Speaking of children, I mean, you have, you have two daughters, which you're very proud of. What has this transition meant for your family life for? I mean, how do you, how do you juggle all of the stuff that you've done and you've made this transition and how has it affected your relationship with your family?

Oh, it's been fantastic. It's been, it's been really modeling for them how they can lead their lives. They're 22 and 24. One of them is graduating this year in art history. And she's very, very much a type A personality. So it's very good for her to see, and she has internalized it, the importance of sleep, the importance of slowing down. And my other daughter, you know, went through a very difficult time that I write about in the book when she got involved in drugs in her last year at Yale. And, you know, In March of 2012, I got that call that every parent dreads. You know, mommy, I can't breathe. And I'll never forget that drive to New Haven and taking her out of school and working with her on her recovery. And what really helped me cope with that period was even during this really hard time, I kept being grateful for the fact that she was alive, for the fact that she wanted to get well, for the fact that she had a loving family willing to support her. And now March 5, she's going to celebrate, you know, two years of being sober. That's awesome. And it was. I was very proud of her when she decided to go public with her story to help other young women and men, because I feel that drug addiction is an epidemic, both legal and illegal drugs, and we need to take the stigma and the shame away from it so that people can talk about it.

You know, I'll try to stop myself from going on a tangent here, but this is a really deep issue with me. I think I've shared this with you before. When I was 18 years old, at my worst possible state, I weighed 105 pounds from free basin coke for three months straight. So I was addicted to cocaine and I looked like a skeleton. And I mean, I was very close to getting to where I would probably die. I was so badly addicted and I literally had to remove myself from the environment where I lived. I went and lived in a trailer for two years. I mean, I literally got clean. And I ended up getting a job at a mental hospital. And then I used to drive all of the patients to AA meetings, Alcoholics Anonymous and NA meetings, Narcotics Anonymous. And I would sit and listen to these stories. It was so wild. And I created a great admiration for 12 step groups because they've helped literally millions of people. But some of the insights I got out of it, which is so much about what you talk about in thrive, is the importance of connection, the importance of community. And Bill W, one of the founders of aa, had this great line where he said, as alcoholics, we're trying to drink God out of a bottle. And that was such a profound statement because there's people that are addicted to chemicals and drugs, then there's behavior. Sex, gambling, food, workaholism, video games, which is electronics. I mean, it is truly an addiction. And even if someone's an atheist, I mean just what people are trying to do is connect with something. They're just trying to feel better. And when you feel horrible, there's nothing wrong with wanting to make the pain go away. It's. It's the mechanism you choose to do it. And so there's a lot of self destructive things that people literally go to just to try to make this anxiety and this depression and this angst. And so your daughter coming out is huge. You talking about all this is huge because there are people that are suffering from things that they are looking at all the wrong solutions for and they keep working harder and harder and that doesn't solve it. Sometimes a gym membership and support, more sleep will fix half your problems.

And as they say in aa, you're only as sick as your secrets. So keeping a secret is one of the biggest problems. And if others share theirs and their own recovery, as you just did now it makes it easier for people watching to say, I can change. I have that power in me.

Yeah, and you really can. I mean, it is amazing what you can put your body through. And if you really are diligent and you take the right actions and you establish some consistent rituals, your life can absolutely transform. I mean it really. And it can do it.

We're so resilient, much more resilient than we think.

Yeah. So let's Talk about, you know, wisdom. Let's talk about wonder. Touch on nose.

So wisdom. If you look around, you see many leaders in politics, in business, in media, very smart, very high IQs, great degrees, making terrible decisions. What they are lacking is not smarts and intelligence, it's wisdom. And I feel we all have in us that place of wisdom, strength, serenity. But most of the time we don't give ourselves the time to connect with it. It's like a deserted, neglected garden. And I think when we give ourselves the time to connect with our own wisdom, with that center in us, our life is transformed. Because so often, I mean, when I look back at my mistakes, so often they're because I ignored little red flags or whisperings or I missed opportunities that were right there, but I was too busy noticing them. So that's really something which I think will transform leadership in any area and our own personal lives.

I mean, I love how you talk about coincidence in the book too.

Yes, that's in the wonder chapter.

Yeah, yeah.

Which talk about that because as you said, whether you are a believer in a higher power, in God, in whatever, or whether you are not, everybody is at. Everybody has a sense of something beyond our lives. We may not be able to define it, but what makes people connect with that often is just something as simple and trivial as coincidences. Because coincidences cannot be explained intellectually. And even if they're silly, people love them. I mean, people always come up to me and tell me, you won't believe what happened. You know, I saw so and so and I never thought they would be there, et cetera, et cetera. It makes us feel as though there is some kind of design in the universe that we may not be aware of, but it's there. And I think having some trust that there is a purpose in our lives is very important for our well being. And it happens to be true. I really believe that. One of my favorite. I have a lot of poetry in the book too because I think there's a lot of poems and pieces of literature that I have loved. And one of my favorites that I have in the book is from the poet Rumi, who said, live life as though everything is rigged in your favor. Because the alternative, which is living life as a victim, feeling hard on by everything, is just a very painful way to live.

Right. Well, and on top of that, even if you are a victim, and many people are, it's like you say, you get no power out of it. You can't do anything with that. So just having the mindset that you actually can, you can guide your own life gives you a much better chance of.

Yeah, I mean I have, I have examples from people in concentration camps. I mean you can't be in a more painful, suffocating environment. And there we have Viktor Frankl. Talk about even there. The one power left to me was to choose my own attitude, to choose what I would feel and think. And that's a huge freedom that we all have.

Yeah, absolutely. And so what I will say is that there are so many examples and you also back up with data supporting everything that you are suggesting and recommending and highlighting in this book. So it's really great. So let's talk about giving. What do you mean by that?

So giving for me is really the one pillar that sort of completes the infrastructure because I think we are meant to be giving creatures. And so when we give it reinforces our own abundance and it really increases our own well being. And we now have a lot of evidence, a lot of science to prove it. And anecdotally I know that so, so often when I'm with very successful men or women, the thing they want to talk about is something they just did that made someone happier. David Letterman said the only time he's really been happy is when he's done something for people they couldn't do for themselves. And again and again we hear the same story. It's real, it's true, and it's just wonderful to have all the science now to prove it. I mean, I feel like a lawyer sometimes. I want to convince people and so.

Well, you do have a debate background.

I have a debate background. But even the biggest skeptics will have a hard time not believing this stuff when they see the overwhelming amount of research, a lot of which is very recent. That is what is interesting. I mean we are at a turning point. There is something in the zeitgeist that means that when we embark on this journey, we do have the wind on our back.

Yeah. Well, I believe you're going to change a lot of lives, probably save quite a few and allow people to course. Correct. And you've created this awesome blueprint with this amazing book, Thrive. So if someone reads it, what do you think they'll get out of it? And what do you hope that they will get out of it?

Well, what I hope they'll get out of it is the recognition that we have 30,000 days if we're likely to play the game of life. And how we play it will depend on what we value. If we just value money, we'll never have enough, period. If we just value power and fame, we'll always feel somebody else's more. And if we value all these other things in our well being, our wisdom, our ability to wander, to give life is just full of infinite possibilities. And even when times are hard, as times will be hard, we will have the power in us to deal with them with more grace and more compassion, both for ourselves and for others.

Awesome. Awesome. So I want to recommend to all of our listeners to everyone watching this, pick up a copy of Thrive, get it online, do it right now. If you know anyone that needs more sleep, that is overworked, that has too much anxiety, too much stress, and that you know that they're on a path that is just not working or not working as well as it could. Get a copy of Ariana's book. It is really one of the best books I've ever read and I love the message behind it and coming from someone that really does have the influence and the impact and the ability to share it with the world. The small part that I can play in this is just continue to be a mouthpiece and tell people about it and share this video with anyone that you think needs to watch it. You've done really great work here. Before we stop, I want to ask you about your success as a person because you've done so much, you've accomplished so much and you continue to do that. So what are you excited about? What do you wake up in the morning and really look forward to?

Well, I'm very excited about our global expansion at the moment. I just came back from South Korea, which was our 11th country. You know, we started in France, Spain, Germany, Italy, Japan, the Maghreb countries, and Canada, of course the uk and now we're in South Korea. And speaking of the third metric, I love to look how each country is approaching it. South Africa, South Korea was fascinating because it's probably the most stressed country in the world. They have 40 suicides a day.

Wow.

South Koreans drink four times as much as we drink here in the United States. So there's a real crisis of stress and burnout.

That's a lot of pain going on there.

A lot of pain going on. And at the same time, they have this incredible traditions of Buddhism and Confucianism. I went to a Buddhist retreat for two days. So they are very comfortable at the same time with talking about going inward and connecting with ourselves. A lot of these things that still for many Americans sound vaguely flaky, vaguely Californian and New Agey. They Know that these are rooted in ancient wisdom. So it's this paradox of these two extremes. And I think that they may be able, if they actually allow themselves to tap into this wisdom, to transform a modern society that is suffering from a lot of the unintended consequences of rapid growth and industrialization, et cetera.

So, you know, how do you go in? Well, let me start from an individual level. If someone is beaten down, I mean, a lot of my clients are entrepreneurs, so they're trying to run businesses. They have many hats that they're wearing. The only way that they make any money or pay their bills is they produce a result. And so they're very much, you know, on the go quite a bit. How, you know, what would be some advice that you have or ways to look at failures? Like, how have you handled failures in your life? How do you handle criticism, that sort of of stuff? Because I think a lot of people just feel really beaten down and they're not operating from a sense of confidence, Right?

Absolutely.

What would you say to those people?

Well, first of all, it's very important for all of us to realize that failure is part of success. It's not the opposite of success. My mother used to call it a stepping stone to success. So we need to change our approach to failure, and that means that will be more likely to take risks, to try for things that may not work. I mean, I know when I launched the Huffington Post, trust me, there weren't a lot of people who thought it would succeed. And on day one, our reviews were terrible. I've learned one of them by heart. It said, the Huffington Post is an unsurvivable failure. It is the movie equivalent of Ishtar, Heaven's Gate, and one other horrible movie that I can't remember right now. One more, I'll let you know which it is. But anyway, all rolled into one. It said, so that's when it's important not to internalize criticism, because if you have a vision for something, just keep going, and you're not going to get the world applauding on day one. And for me, that was a big lesson.

Those are great points. You know, if you got a vision, keep going in day one, it's not always going to be a success. I mean, just knowing that is such an important point.

Exactly. And perseverance is key, and course correcting is key. You know, I always like to listen to what people are saying, and if there's some useful criticism, absolutely, take it. But if it's just naysaying, do you.

Know how to esteem yourself by yourself. Now, of course, I'm sort of asking you questions I already know the answer to because I read Thrive. But basically, when you're feeling down, when you're feeling like I may need, I need some help, do you typically reach out to other people or do you just go quiet inside and meditate? Or you probably do a combination. But how do you handle sort of situations where Arianna Huffington does? You know, things are feeling a little out of control or a little overwhelming?

Both. I think that being able to go inside and meditate is just. I mean, when we say meditate, you know, you may want to pray or have some other contemplative practice or you may want to go fly fishing. I don't know. You know, it's whatever it is in your life that helps you disconnect from everything that you are doing and reconnect with yourself, whatever that activity is for you. It's good to just practice so that in moments when you are down, in moments when things are hard, you can go to it and you know it's there.

Right.

You know, you may not know that on day one. It's like learning to play tennis, you know, on day one it may not be good.

Yes.

You know, in my case it never got good. But anyway, that's another story. But if you keep practicing, then suddenly it's easy to get into that place and be there. And that's an incredible source of strength and serenity at the same time. I believe in having a little tribe, even if it's a tribe of one of people who love you and you love them and they're always in your corner and they're there with you whether you're succeeding or failing. And that's very important. I mean, I have my little tribe and I can go to them when I'm down and we can laugh and they can make me remember. Often the people who are in our tribe just remind us of things that we forget because in some place we all know these things. You know, you resonate to thrive because you know that.

Yeah, yeah.

If you didn't know it, it would be Chinese, right? Or Greek, as they say. So we need these people to remind us when we forget what matters and that we are bigger than our problems. And then we'll remind them when they're down.

I gotta tell you a story because I was talking to a person in a 12 step group. He was not my sponsor. He was a sponsor of many people in 12 step groups. I've done quite a few interviews with people on addiction. And he said that the reason that I'm a sponsor is because I tell my sponsees things that I know at some point I'm going to forget and I'm going to need to call them so they can feed back to me what I've been telling them. And I was like, wow, that's the whole point of people sponsoring each other in 12 step groups. Is that helping with the mutual suffering? So I gotta ask you just to share a couple of business strategies. I mean you've accomplished so much in life. So business strategies, life strategies, some elegant ideas that really have allowed you to have great success if you could share a couple.

Well, I really believe in win win. You know, don't try to grab everything. You know, make sure that whoever you are negotiating with leaves happy. And that has really stood me very well. And also just make the right decision for your company, even though it may not mean as much money as you might get somewhere else. I mean, for me, I knew that when aol, when Tim Armstrong, the CEO of AOL came to me and said they wanted to buy the Huffington Post, I knew it was right. I know that my co founder and other investors wanted to wait and do an IPO and maybe we would have made more money. But I knew that the Huffington Post had to keep growing. And in order to keep growing, we needed to invest more resources and in order to invest in video, in mobile, in global. All the stuff we've done became possible because of this acquisition. So beyond the money that we made from the acquisition, it was the right thing for the Huffington Post. So I think as business leaders, we need to make these decisions. And if you start something, I mean, you care for it like a child. And so I wanted to thrive. I wanted the hobbit past to thrive and I knew that these were the circumstances in which it thrive.

Yeah. So you, you know what I, what I love, I have a friend named Dan Sullivan who founded a company called Strategic Coach. And he talks about in order to have the conditions that you want in your life, you need to set things up in a certain way. And what I think is so great about Thrive is you talk about there are a lot of people that are very smart when it comes to getting power and getting money and building big companies and they know how to set up things in order to have those conditions. And what you've written about in Thrive is how to actually set up your life to be happy, to be fulfilled, to not self destruct, to actually, I mean even the chapter where you talk about so much about death. I mean, even the studying to death, you share the insights from people that are around dying people all the time. I mean, it really makes you look at life in a completely different way. And what's great about the third metric is that you realize that the glasses that people are staring at success from are they think they're seeing things clearly, but they're not seeing things clearly at all. And so if you only had a couple of minutes to summarize just the biggest benefits that you have gotten in your life as a result of adopting what you've now laid out as a way of living and thrive, what would you say that is?

Well, without any doubt, I am more productive, more creative, happier, and more vital in the course of my life. And that's why I so much want people to try it. It's very simple, very simple little steps and realize that we can achieve everything we want, but do it with less stress and more joy.

Awesome. Awesome. Thank you. So, Arianna Huffington Thrive, her 14th book, the third metric to redefining success and creating a life of well being, wisdom and wonder. Get a copy of this, read it. I think it will change your life. And you also are doing third metric conferences and you're sharing this message in different ways. So how do people find out about that?

So if you go to the website Huffington Bar Thrive, all the information will be there.

Wonderful. Well, Ariana, you're always doing awesome stuff. You also, I must mention, you gave such an incredible Talk at my 2012 Genius Network event and you're doing it again this year. So, so happy to share this message with so many people and I'd love to hear your comments on this. Please let us know and read the book and you know, please give your feedback. And so thank you.

Thank you so much. Thank you, Joe. Thanks for having me.