The One With John Dumas - I Love Marketing With Joe Polish And Dean Jackson - Episode #144

I'm dean jackson, he's joe polish, and this is the I love marketing podcast. Hey everybody, it's Dean Jackson and Joe Polish.

We have a special guest with us today. His name is John Lee Dumas. If you've never heard of him, he is the founder and host of Entrepreneur on Fire, which is a top ranked business podcast that interviews today's most inspiring and successful entrepreneurs seven days a week. Unlike us, he does this every single day.

He's not lazy like us.

Right?

Right. Well, it's more like you, Dean. John's been featured in both Time and Ink magazine. He's the founder of Podcaster's Paradise. It's a community where podcasters can create, grow and monetize their podcast. Entrepreneur on Fire generates 450,000 unique downloads a month with past guests such as Seth Godin, Tim Ferriss, Barbara Cochran, Gary from Shark Tank and Real Estate, and Gary Vaynerchuk and Guy Kawasaki and a whole bunch more. He's done over 500 episodes, just did one with me and Dean, and so recaps of the 500 plus episodes and much more can be found@eofire.com and so, John, how the heck are you, man?

Joe, I mean, how can I not be fired up right now after just having you guys on Entrepreneur on Fire? Literally. Let's ignite.

I mean, Dean, that one scares me a little bit.

I feel like I have to like, wear my protective gear or something.

Let's ignite. Well, see, this is what happens to your brain when you do like 500 podcasts. I mean, it just kind of has this whole, you know, there's some neural pathways that are going on with John.

No.

So you know what's funny? When I first talked to you, John, Mike Koenigs, who's just a good friend of ours, he's been telling me about you for like the longest time when I first heard about you. And he's like, you know, this guy just makes over 100,000amonth with his podcast currently. And you know, that sort of thing, which I'm going to ask you about. We're both going to ask you about that, but you are a pretty active dude. And what I will say, a lot of people be like, why are you recommending someone else's podcast? Well, I mean, for one, me and Dean recommend people all the time. That's why we interview people. And I think we're all converts of a system. We're certainly converts of our own system. And so you've monetized extraordinarily well the world of podcasting while simultaneously teaching and inspiring and encouraging a tremendous amount of entrepreneurs and people that want to become, you know, business owners and startups. So who is John Lee Dumas and what the heck is Entrepreneur on Fire for people that don't know?

Well, Joe and Dean, thanks again for having me on. Really excited to chat with you guys for the next hour and of course your lovely audience, which I consider myself a part of. But you know, John Lee Dumas, I to give you the real quick rundown, just a country boy from Maine. Spent the first 18 years of my life there, Went to college on an army scholarship, so I graduated, spent eight years as an officer, four active, four in the reserves, 13 months in Iraq. After I got out of that hellhole, I tried a bunch of different things. You know, I was in law school, corporate finance, commercial real estate. Never really found my passion, never found my swing, so to speak. Then one day I had this aha moment. I had this light bulb went off and I just said I would love to have conversations with people that I admire, people like Joe Polish, Dean Jackson, Seth Godin, Chris Brogan, and have them share their journey and put them on a stage that could reach the world because nobody was doing it on a seven day a week level. And I knew there are people like myself, consumers of podcasts that needed that much content. So that was the day that Entrepreneur on Fire was born. We've been doing a seven day a week business podcast that has been inspiring people in over 145 countries. We were awarded best in iTunes 2013. We've had some great things happen to us all because of great entrepreneurs out there that are willing to come on our show and share their journey with the world. So it's been an amazing journey. We're at over 500 episodes now and I don't plan on stopping.

What happens if you, like, want to take a week off or something? Do you just record a bunch of them in advance or do you just never do that?

So I record eight interviews every single Monday. That's my batch processing that I utilize. And so after Mondays are done, Joe, believe me, it's a long day and it's exhausting on a lot of levels. I got to bring my eight game for each and every interview, but then I'm done for the week. But long story short, sometimes I throw in a Thursday or a Wednesday where I do eight more and I really bulk them up. So as we sit right now, actually 45 days ahead, which is really important because I was asked to go out and speak at Chris Ducker's Tropical Think Tank with Pat Flynn and Amy Porterfield this coming March. So I'm out of country for almost three weeks, but I have all the interviews done, recorded, scheduled, so while I'm gone, they'll be being released on a daily basis at 3am every single day like clockwork.

That's great. That's very good. Now, Dean, I've got a whole bunch of questions, but if you want to go.

Yeah, no, that's fantastic. I mean that we do something similar. We never get 40 episodes ahead, but often you have to do that. And it's fun for us to kind of hear other podcasters processes because it's kind of. Everybody's usually asking us those kind of questions. Yeah. So it's kind of neat to hear other processes. You love how clever it is of us to have you on here and just spend an hour with you giving us free podcasting advice.

Absolutely, yeah.

Thank you.

You'll get my invoice though, believe me. Aha.

Yeah. You know, I mean, what caused you to go down this path of doing podcasts? Why did you choose this vehicle as a way to communicate with people?

So I was always a consumer, Joe. Like I was always that person that was at the gym, that was running along the beach, always wanted headphones in. And I just wasn't a big lover of music. You know, I'd heard Miley Cyrus on the radio one times too many. My brain kind of clicked off and I said, there's got to be other things out there, you know, it started with audio books that got pretty expensive because I was burning through four or five hours of audio books a day. So I stumbled upon to the means of podcasting through itunes and Stitcher radio and soundcloud, these great directories that were having guys like yourselves that were coming on and just sharing their wisdom. And it was free and it was targeted and it was on demand. I could press play and press pause whenever I wanted to. I wasn't. I didn't have to run to the radio at 2pm and turn it on and listen to you guys. I could do it whenever it worked for me. And as a busy guy, I realized this was an amazing opportunity. And it wasn't a radio station as well, where it was limited to like a 45 mile reach entrepreneur on fire. Like your podcast guys gets downloaded in over 145 countries around the world. I mean, how amazing is that? I saw the opportunity, I became passionate about it, I became obsessed with it. And it's something I do every single day now.

Yeah. That is unbelievable. No, that's inspiring, too, because it's also. You're committed. You made a decision to do something and you stuck with it because in order for. How long did it take before you got some real traction?

It took about six months before we really started seeing some aggressive traction that being both on the monetization end and then both like on the publicity front. And, you know, that is one thing that we definitely do share about with our monthly income reports that I know we're going to get to in a little bit. But we love to share the hard times of launch because, you know, I did have to have a Runway. I did need to have some kind of nest egg that got us through those first few months where it was just me talking to a microphone, interviewing entrepreneurs and trying to an audience. And of course, that snowball that was starting at the top was pretty small, but as it continued going down the hill and picking up speed and size, that's when things really started to pick up.

Yeah. Yeah. And I will say, you know, me and Dean have been doing it for how long we've been doing it now, Dean.

Yeah, this is. Well, 142 weeks so far.

So three years almost.

Yeah. We're getting to our. Into our. Yeah, almost three years.

Yeah. There's a lot to be said. And of course, me and Dean have had our own marketing companies for. I started mine in 1994. So we've been doing it for many, many years. And there's a lot to be said about going deep with something. And many people go shallow. They get frustrated, they don't have the wherewithal, they don't have what Dean Graziosi calls marketing stamina, and they don't stick with it. And so if there's one lesson that I say was. But if there's one lesson I think everyone should really pay attention with, you is just someone that's committed to doing the work and getting it done. Let's ask you about the. You do something most people don't do. You share your monthly income expenses and the detailed explanation and look into your financials and you actually take people step by step through what you did. So why did you decide to do this? And where can people go to see your financials if they actually want to see what I'm talking about here?

Sure. Well, eofire.com income will take you to the page that lists out every single one of our income reports that we've published. And we did one that was the first 365 days of Entrepreneur on Fire. And then our one year anniversary, we started releasing monthly income reports. So back In September of 2013, we've been releasing a monthly income report every day going forward. And Joe, to specifically answer your question, like, the reason why we went out and did this was because there were people out there that I truly admired. Pat Flynn of Smart Passive Income is one who for years now has been publishing monthly income reports about the income that he generates through passive income. And I loved his transparency. I loved the interaction, the engagement that he got every single time he posted that, that all of his audience was waiting for bated breath to see what was working for Pat this month, what wasn't working for Pat. And guys, I wanted to take that kind of excitement and passion and bring it to the podcasting world, because nobody was doing it. So I decided that we were gonna plant our flag and say, you know what? We are a podcast. We are Entrepreneur on Fire. Everything that we generate income wise comes from that core of the podcast. So every single month, we're gonna release income reports, we're gonna release all of our successes. So everybody that's podcasting right now, they can emulate those successes and see what's working for us on a monetization level. But at the same time, Joe and Dean, we publish our failures, our mist. We do that because we want people to avoid those and not waste time, energy, and effort like we did making those same mistakes. So every single month, we lay it all on the line, all of our expenses, down to our website hosting, our virtual assistant fees, our website design, whatever it may be, and then also all the income that we generate in the month of January. We haven't yet even released the income report for January. Kate's actually working on it right now. It will be released soon. But we're going to have over 170,000 doll of gross income and over 150,000 of net income for Entrepreneur on Fire for just the month of January. And we're gonna share in detail every single part of those line items. And I'm very happy to even share with you guys today on the show our five top income streams. Cause they are very specific, but it's really powerful. What can happen when you do build that audience. Like we have an Entrepreneur on Fire and like what you guys have at. I love marketing.

That'd be great for you to share. I think people would love to hear, because that's what people wonder is what are the income streams that you can have? Sure.

Well, let's start at the lowest. And again, we have more than eight income streams total, and we share them all. But I'll share the top five right now, starting with the lowest. So number one is our affiliate income. That's when people come to entrepreneuronfire.com and they click on our resources tab and they see that we recommend bluehost for hosting your website, or that we recommend leadpages for sales pages, et cetera. We have a great resources page with a ton of resources, and every single one of those resources are resources that we use and that we recommend and that we're affiliates with. So we make thousands of dollars, you know, somewhere between 2 to $5,000 every single month through that affiliate page, through that resources page, through that affiliate income. So that's definitely number one. So for anybody that's out there that's starting building an audience, always provide that audience with resources that you love. And that's a great opportunity to start monetizing. The second income stream that's a little bit higher is my coaching. I mentor four people on a monthly basis. That's what I cap it out at, because that's all that I have bandwidth for. I just can't take on more people. I do have a long wait list, but it's only fair for me and for my mentees that I cap it at 4. And it's $2,000 a month for a weekly phone call with me and reasonable email access. And I take people through the launching of their podcast. So that generates $8,000 a month. The third is our membership Mastermind. Much like Joe has his Membership Mastermind and Dean has his Membership Mastermind, we have won an Entrepreneur on Fire. Obviously not at the same dollar amounts that you guys are generating, but Fire Nation Elite is what it's called. And we opened it up back in June of 2013. We had over 600 applications. We accepted 100 people and then capped it because again, we knew that that was the right number for the members within. And people are charged $135 a month. And then they're our Membership Mastermind, which is essentially a private Facebook group that they can interact with us and other entrepreneurs that are in. So that generates $13,500 a month. And that all came from the podcast Entrepreneur on Fire Me. Just saying, hey, Fire Nation listeners, if you want to take it to the next level and be part of Fire Nation Elite, here it is. And now we generate again, a six figure income, a five figure income a month, a six figure annualized income just from that recurring revenue number four guys is sponsorships. I' really led the way with podcast sponsorships for the individual sponsor and Entrepreneur on Fire. Being a daily podcast allows me to generate massive amounts of income for podcasting. So every single month, Entrepreneur on Fire generates $41,000 through sponsorships alone. And that number goes up every quarter. So that was. That's for Q1, January, February, and March. We've locked down sponsors for all of those months. We've sold out our sponsorship slots, and we're making $41,000 each month. Now for Q2, we will go back, we'll look at our increased download rates, and then the numbers will be higher. Maybe it'll be 50,000, maybe it'll be 53,000. Whatever that will be will be what our sponsors will lock for for Q2. And I have a detailed post on that that I know JR will put on the show notes page. It's just eofire.com podcast sponsorships. I really dig deep into the semantics of sponsorships. And then by far, guys, our number one revenue generator, especially in the January, is our community that you mentioned in the intro, which is Podcasters paradise, which is the number one podcasting community to create, grow, and monetize your podcast. This is for beginners, intermediates, and experts that are looking to generate more income, grow their audience, and even just create their podcast. Because we have over 100 video tutorials, we have a community forum, and we do monthly webinars with today's top podcasters. And that entry fee to join Podcasters paradise is $997. We've had more than 500 members join and more joining every single day. And just in January alone, we did $96,000 in sales for Podcasters paradise and February shaping up to be a very similar month. And the major way that we actually generate income, guys, on that Podcaster's paradise is every single week, we're doing a live free podcast webinar@podcastersparadise.com where anybody in the world can join and hundreds do every single week. And we share why podcasting is exploding, how it can benefit your business, and why you should join Podcasters Paradise. And we get thousands and thousands in dollars in sales every single week from that live webinar. So Those are our five major income streams again, that in January created about $170,000 of income for Entrepreneur on Fire. So. So I share more on that live weekly webinar. I'm happy to drill down more into any of those streams if you guys want to, or move on to another topic. I am all yours.

Boy, that's awesome.

What do you think of that, Dean?

Yeah, I think that's great. Is the podcasters paradise? Is that a1time997? It's just your one time and you're in the community for two years.

It's a two year membership.

Yeah. Nice. That's fantastic. I mean, what I'm really seeing here is just the disciplined execution, as our friend Brendan Burchard would call it. The focused, disciplined execution in a narrow band. You've narrowed it to the things that are making the boat go faster, as we call it, and really just focus on adding that. That horsepower. It's something we appreciate you being so open and willing to share that kind of stuff. I think people will get a lot out of that.

Well, let me ask real quick, Dean, because I know you're going to ask him a question, but John, do you think I love marketing would be more valuable and bring in more money if I kicked Dean off the show?

That's the question I was going to ask.

If we could somehow kind of get him. I swear, I think he's like an income repellent for this. And, you know, if money was the primary objective, I would have done it like, believe me, when we first started. But it's not. I mean, I care about other things. Sort of codependent relationship I have with Dean. So I'm trying to, I think, but I think I'm enable him a little bit while simultaneously limiting my income. So, I mean, if you were put in that situation, how would you handle it?

Joe, I personally would stop listening to your podcast and would stop recommending your podcast if you kicked Dean off. I love him that much.

Oh, boy. See, there we go.

First off, everyone.

Saved Dean campaign.

No, I mean with our constant band trade, I think most people know that I have enormous respect and appreciation for Dean and this is just the way that I show.

Oh, yeah.

Cool.

So go ahead, Dean, you were going to say something. I just had to interject that very important.

Now I'm all flustered. I got her. Like, I feel like I got to tap dance a little here to earn my. Earn my spot.

So do you remember what you're going to say or do you want me to ask him a question? I don't. You go ahead. Okay. So. Well, you have question. You know, you interviewed us and you have a lot of interesting questions. So I want to ask you, you know, what's your proudest entrepreneurial moment?

Wow. So, Joe, my proudest entrepreneurial moment by far was very recently Actually, it was about one month ago, I was asked to go out to New Media Expo, and I actually spoke at that conference in Las Vegas three separate times on podcasting. And, you know, just the overall weekend, seeing the energy of the podcasting tracks that were there and how the attendees were just loving the. The. The vibe and everything they were taking in and the excitement that was building up around podcasting made me so proud. But to drill it down to a moment, we went out there, Kate and I, and we decided to do it right. So, you know, we plopped down, a little bit of Mulan, and we got like the Hangover Suite in the Rio. You know, it's that 1600 square foot overlooking the Strip suite. I mean, it's a killer place. We booked it for five days, all because Saturday night we decided to throw what we were looking to become, the party of New Media Expo. And no doubt it became the party. We packed that out with hundreds and hundreds of attendees. We had over near ask us if they could sponsor that party. And they brought 250 jab, jab, jab, right hook books, which they quickly gave them all away at our hangout. And just to kind of stand there and see all these people really excited to be at an entrepreneur on Fire hangout in the middle of New Media Expo, which is a conference that started it all for me. In capping it off by knowing that I was about to present that next morning a solo presentation to many people in that room, I really just kind of took a moment, took a deep breath, pinched myself, and said, wow, look what's happened in a mirror. 18 months.

Yeah, that's great. That's great. You know what? That's the payoff when you really have worked it and you've been smart. And the fact is, if you're willing to put in the time and do it and be smart about it, then you can have many, many of those proud moments. Now, there's a line I've always liked, which is different variations of this, but the successful people are willing to do. The 5% of the most successful people are willing to do the things that the 95% are not willing to do. What are you willing to do that you see that most people are not willing to do?

I'm willing to bust my hump every single day of the week, and I do. I have a great app called Rescue Time, and it tracks the amount of time I'm working on my computer on a weekly basis. And there's never a time that that app doesn't return to me, 70 plus hours. And, you know, I don't promote being a workaholic and I don't promote, like, giving up other things and important things in life just to work, work, work. You know, I really, Even despite those 70 hours, you know, I make sure that I'm exercising every single day for a solid hour. I'm making sure that I'm eating right. I'm making sure that I'm taking time to call family and friends and stay in touch and, you know, watch my favorite Providence College Friars play basketball. But, you know, Joe and Dean, I'm willing to wake up at 5am every single morning, have that alarm clock go off. I'm like everybody else. I don't want to get out of bed. It's cold, the bed's warm. You know, I would rather just kind of roll over and cuddle up and fall back asleep for a couple hours. But I get up out of bed at 5am and by 9am I can honestly look at the clock and say, you know what? I've been working now for four hours and this is when most other people in the world are starting their day. And I can honestly say that I've gotten more done already than the rest of the world will do all day long. And I took that mentality from as an officer in the U.S. army, seeing that lifestyle, it was army strong, baby. You know, waking up doing the PT at 4:30am and then by the time breakfast came at 9, you're like, I just lived like three lives and it's like not even breakfast time yet. And I realized what was possible and I took that mentality to the entrepreneurial world and I took it to entrepreneurial on Fire. Because, guys, there was people that I really respect and people I still respect a lot and their friends in the podcasting field. Cliff Ravenscraft, the podcast answer man. Jamie Tardy of the eventual millionaire. These are people that I went to. Jamie was my mentor for the first three months and she was amazing. I was in Cliff Ravenscraft's podcast Mastermind, and it was amazing. But both of those people looked at me and said, john, you can't do a seven day a week podcast. You'll get burnt out. You will not be able to physically get it done. And B, nobody's want to listen to a podcast that's seven days a week. And I took that information, guys, and I processed and I said, you know what? I honestly believe my intuition, my gut is telling me that they're wrong. So I put my blinders on and I drove forward knowing that if I really set up the right schedule, the right discipline, that a seven day a week show wasn't only possible to do in a week, it was possible to do in one day. And as I briefly brushed over, I do eight interviews every single Monday. So I do a seven day a week podcast one day a week.

You know, it's amazing though, when you think about that. You look at, if you follow the podcasting reports on itunes, you see that Dave Ramsey is always right up there at the top in that number one position.

Oh yeah.

And he has a. I don't know whether his podcast is seven days, but certainly five days a week. That I've just been amazed by that whole engine that he's really been able to create. I mean, he's kind of mirroring that on the radio. But it amazes me that for over 20 years now he's been able to talk for three hours a day, five days a week on the same seven step financial freedom system. You think about it, it's like that is just a total commitment to all that discipline. And he's built a tremendous empire around that.

Absolutely. But then you can also make the case that that worker that gets up at 6am every morning, commutes an hour to work to that button factory and pulls that lever a thousand times a day to make that button, I mean, and works for 40, for 40 years pulling that lever. I mean, he's making a commitment too. It's just unfortunate in my opinion. The wrong commitment.

That's great.

Do you think that has to do with intelligence? Do you think that has to do with luck? Do you think that, what do you think that has to do with? Because in the world there is a tremendous amount of jealousy and envy when people that do work really hard witness other people that are in their unique abilities that have been been either lucky or strategic or right timing or whatever they think it is that has allowed them to do better financially, successfully, relationship wise. And it breeds resentment and hatred in a lot of ways. Because I don't think most people really applaud the success of others. I mean, I think on some levels they do. But when it gets to way beyond their ceiling, their pistol about it, what do you think that's all about?

Joe, when you were on Entrepreneur on Fire, I talked briefly about a theme that developed in the 500 plus episodes, which was the baby effect theme, where it really was when people seemed to have that baby in their backs against the wall, things finally started happening. Well, to be completely honest with you, there's another Theme that develops so many of the entrepreneurs on Entrepreneur on Fire make a statement so similar to I could never work for anybody else. I was the worst employee ever. I just completely always chafed against my job and my boss. I just couldn't fit into that system. Entrepreneurs are cut from a different thread. They are people who just deep down their genetics say, you know what, I can't be forced into this cubicle. I can't be forced to do that. And that was my life as well. I couldn't be in law school, it was too structured. You know, I struggled as an officer in the army. Me, I made it through my tour of duties, but I struggled because the system was so stringent and so tight and corporate finance, commercial real estate, it just wasn't for me. I was always bucking against it. And I went out and I found people to surround myself with. And that's what you guys talk about and do so well with your 25k club and the genius and everything else. You surround yourselves with free thinking, entrepreneurial type figures. And that is so important and so amazing. So anybody that's listening right now that says, you know what, I have these golden handcuffs. I'm stuck at this six figure annual a year job and it's providing for my family and I just don't know if I can break out. Well, start surrounding yourself with people who do think they can break out or that have broken out before. That famous Jim Rohn quote. You are the average of the five people you spend the most time with. Why do you think that Joe and Dean continue to crush it? Because they spend the most time with people that are absolutely crushing it. Who's on your bus right now and what would happen if you open up the back of that bus and kicked out the 10 worst and opened up the front door and brought in 10 people like Joe and like Dean. I mean, you better believe that your life would take on a whole different kind of atmosphere and attitude. And so that is what I really see is that the theme that comes up over and over again, Joe, is people that are entrepreneurs could never be good employees and would have always failed as employees time and time again.

Yeah, that's pretty much true.

True.

I was going to say what dropped there was an interesting aha that I just had when John was saying the person who drives the hour to punch buttons 1000 buttons a day is doing that same discipline that amplifies this idea, Joe, that you and I have talked about for a while now. Course of of what's more valuable ideas or Execution. And John, I don't know whether you've heard us talk about that, but this argument always comes up and people on the execution side will say, well, ideas that aren't executed are worthless. So execution is clearly more valuable than the ideas. And I've always been one to say, well, that's true. And you can, you have to grant that there's such a thing as flawless execution. And the only thing that can improve flawless execution is executing a better idea. What you just said about the button puncher, they've just made a different choice. They made a choice to do something that is repetitive and not a high yield activity. And somebody like Dave Ramsey has made the choice to, to execute a better.

Idea or even, I mean, Dave Ramsey's also chosen to be repetitive, as Joe said. I mean, he's talking about the seven same topics, but his topics are high yield as you spoke.

That's exactly it. Yeah.

Hey, can I say, let me mention something about that. Sorry, Let me mention something about a sense of urgency and operating and doing something daily and getting stuff done. And I mean, starting with what you said, John, about waking up at 5am and doing the batched shows together on a Monday, about. I don't know how. Just three weeks ago I went to TMZ headquarters. You see tmz, it's like National Enquirer on television. And basically went and met with Harvey Levin who founded it. And we were originally just going to have a one hour tour of the tmz. And I actually ended up going there there by getting something on charity buzz because I just wanted to see how they do this operation. I was very curious about how I would even think about what they do, but I was fascinated by it. And so using the clever marketing that I do, the money that I actually made a contribution to the Cesar Millan Foundation. And so Cesar Millan's assistant that runs the foundation, Gillian showed my video to Cesar, my bio video, and then ended up contacting me saying, you guys are very entrepreneurial, would you like to meet with Cesar? And I said, yeah, I think that'd be great. I go, there's one problem though. And she's like, what's that? I go, I don't like animals. And she's like, really? And I'm like, no, I'm totally just kidding. And I was joking of course. Then we hit it off. So we took Gillian with us down there and my assistant Eunice. So we go for a one hour tour. So I get to talking to Harvey and he obviously sees that I have Done a lot of stuff. So he's like, come into the production studio. Takes us in the production studio. And now when we had gotten there, they just had gotten done filming one of the shows that you see on TV pretty much daily. And they literally put this entire show together and finished the editing of it within 40 minutes. And it had to be on live television. They get it done 30 seconds before it's going live on TV and they push a button, boom. Everything they just videotape live on television. They do that this three times a day, seven days a week. It was unbelievable. And he even told me, he goes, we make more money than almost all the other networks because of the way we use digital technology. I mean, their operation is amazing. And the sense of urgency. I was incredibly impressed. If anyone ever gets an opportunity to go and do a tour there and see how they function, it's. It was quite fascinating. But the thing that just struck me as awesome is he gets up at 5am every morning. He works out for an hour, hour and a half, hour and 45 minutes. He goes to the office and literally they do the three shows a day and he usually leaves at six. And then he goes and swims for 45 minutes. And he does that typically seven days a week. And he's completely, now, I wouldn't want to do that, but he's completely engaged in it and totally committed to it. And the guys in killer stuff and it was a trip just to see that. But when you were talking, it reminded me of just that commitment to doing something, but also operating with a sense of urgency, which I think most successful entrepreneurs have. And I'm not talking about a frantic sense of urgency because it can be at an insane level. But what are your thoughts on just optimism? What is your mo? I mean, how does John operate throughout the day in order to get things done?

So Joe, going back to my days in the army, I mean that's really where I developed this sense of disciplined urgency, because I think you're completely right, is that it's not frantic, but it is urgent. And you need to always be operating with that sense of being on the edge and being focused. And as you said on entrepreneurial, on fire, your brain kicks into a different level when you just have to get something done. I mean, things just become lot more laser type focus. So in the military we were always in that sense of that sense of disciplined urgency because you never knew what was going to happen. You had to train for anything to come up. And if you weren't always just focused and disciplined and urgent in everything that you did, then it literally could be a life or death situation. So that's exactly the kind of principles I also took into entrepreneur on Fire. And I said, you know what? I'm going to get up every single morning and I'm going to take control of my day. You know, I wake up and I already have 50 emails in my inbox and that's at 5am and that's after going to inbox zero at like 10pm the night before. And if I woke up at 8, 8am, say, and showered and got and sat down at 9am, you know, I'd have hundreds of emails and that would completely take over my day and I would never get anything done. So by having a sense of urgency and being disciplined enough about it to sit down and focus at that 5am juncture instead of four hours later at 9am, I'm taking control back of my day. And then here we are, it's 12:30 Pacific time on a Wednesday and I have nothing better to do for the next hour to chat with you guys because I've taken control. I've already done everything, you know, in the wee hours of the morning that had to get done and I am just having a blast.

Well, you should try doing it with deed for 145 times. I think that blast dissipated to some level of depression and anxiety.

Dean, you gotta jab back, my friend. What do you got?

You know, John, how would you like to come over and do this podcast with us?

Make it a three way.

There we go. That is funny. That is funny. You know, I can't remember what that card company is, where they have all the. It's kind of like despair, but they're like little cards. And I had one that was texted to me from, I think Frank Kern or someone sent it to me and said, you know, why is patience a virtue? Why can't hurry the fuck up?

That was me that did that one to you. Yeah, exactly. That's so funny though. It's so true, isn't it? Like just the look on the guy's face and you can hear the tone.

Of his voice, right?

Why is patience a virtue?

So, John. No, exactly. I mean, and I hope everyone kind of gets the humor and the importance of that message. John, when do you exercise? When do you work out? When do you sleep?

I'm a big believer in putting things on the calendar. For me, if it's not on my calendar, it's just not real. So 11am I have on my calendar P90X or insanity, depending on what day of the week it is. So it pops up right in front of me. It says, whatever you're doing, pop it up. One hour blocked off to do the exercise. And again, this goes back to being efficient. You know, I don't leave my apartment, drive 15 minutes to a gym, unpack my stuff, change my clothes and then work out and then come. It's not a whole process. I literally turn my computer off for a second, I walk over to my TV, I hit the play button for 45 minutes, I'm working out, I shower. An hour later, I'm sitting back at my computer for my 12pm appointment. So every single day, 11am I'm doing that. That's, you know, a non negotiable. It's in my calendar. And I make it happen for me because I do get up at 5am I love when I'm crawling into bed at night around 9:30. It doesn't happen all the time, but when it happens, I'm pretty stoked. I typically read for about 30 minutes and then I'm out by 10pm and that gives me a solid seven hours, which is about my comfort zone. Anything less, I'm a little, I get a little too tired. Anything more, it's just too much. You know, seven hours is my sweet spot.

But you know what? That's what, that's gotta be in your DNA A too.

Totally.

I think I always find that a lot of times people who are like motivators and that kind of thing, saying if your dream's not big enough to get you up at 5am in the morning, that kind of thing. Like trying to put their way on you, but nobody thinks to think, well, if your dream isn't big enough to keep you up till 2 o' clock in the morning, it's just as valid, right? It's the fact that whatever your DNA is, some people are night owls. I mean, I know you know, Eben Pagan, for years growing his whole business wouldn't even really get rolling till 10 o' clock at night. You know, he'd be up till 2 or 3 in the morning and sleep till 10 or 11.

You have to find your DNA. As an entrepreneur, Dean, you've nailed it. My good friend Pat Flynn lives right here in San Diego. He crushes it and he crushes it on a totally different schedule than I do. He has two kids, he's a family guy. He spends time with them throughout the day. Come 9pm that door is closed. His kids are in bed. And from nine to Two, from nine to three. That six hours, he is crushing it. And I'm sleeping.

Exactly. And that's the thing, I just wanted to point that out, that the magic isn't getting up at 5am the magic is that disciplined time that you're spending between, you know, 5 and 9am While everybody else is asleep. Or the same thing, you know, with Pat spending the time from 9:00pm till 2:00am when everybody else.

I'll just say this. Choose your 12 hours.

Right.

But it has to be 12 hours.

Perfect.

Well, I should say that if someone wants to listen to the two and a half hour bonus episode interview I did with Tony Horton, who P90X, we have it@ilovemarketing.com which is a good thing. Love that interview. Yeah, Tony's a smart dude. And yeah, it's really good to hear other people's rituals because frankly, what you get done in your life has everything to do with how you set it up. I mean, I think sleep and nutrition and rejuvenation have everything to do with success because if you're like lethargic, you're just not going to get a lot done. And so one of the best ways to increase your income is to take care of your health. Because working out and exercise doesn't take time. It actually makes time. I mean, when I asked Richard Branson several years ago on his island, because I do trips every year, what's the most important time management method you have? And he says exercise. He said, by working out every day, it gives me about four hours of productive time every day by exercise. And that's what Richard Branson said. And then Tim Ferriss wrote about it in the Four Hour Body. And I have a clip with me interviewing Richard on YouTube. People can find it. I think Tim Ferriss put it up on his page, his YouTube page, and, and talking about that. But exercise is critical, not per se, a business strategy, but I personally think it is.

It's your foundation. If you don't have a strong foundation, then you are not going to be able to build upon that. Exercise, nutrition, need to be that core.

Yeah, totally. So what books do you recommend that entrepreneurs read? Because clearly you're a guy that has done a lot of learning and a lot of studying.

There are two books that I love to recommend and one kind of goes with the other. The first book is the Slight Edge by Jeff Olson. It's such a powerful book for so many reasons and it really does a deep dive into how, again, just doing those small things, those little things every single day. Can compound and grow into something huge in the end. You know, for me, at first it was just learning one other function of how to podcast, how to edit, how to do an intro and outro. And then again, it's just doing that 8 interview bash process every single Monday over and over again that's leading to now a top ranked business podcast with over 450,000 unique downloads a month. It's those small, slight edges that I'm doing daily that's putting me way ahead of the competition years down the line. And that book actually inspired Darren Hardy, the founder of Success magazine, to write the Compound Effect where he really expounds upon those principles and talks about, again, the things you're doing today. They may not seem like a of lot, but there's those entrepreneurs that have those rituals that do the small things right every single day, that exercise every single day, that eat right every single day, that do their checklist of things that are non negotiables, that have to get done every single day. Those are the ones that a year from now are blowing their competition away because the compound effect of doing things right every single day is an unbelievable outcome.

Yeah, that book is actually fantastic too. Mary Ellen Tribbey turned me on to it, I don't know, a couple years ago. Yeah, yeah. Slight Edge. Have you ever interviewed Mary Ellen John?

No. I'd love to get her on. Let's do an email intro.

Yeah, I will be happy to do that. She loves that book. That's her favorite. Okay, what's the other?

Well, the other is the Compound Effect by Darren Hardy.

Oh, okay. I'm sorry. Well, I don't know why you would like that book. Do you think Darren's really that bright?

I do not know him personally. I just know that he was inspired by Jeff Olson to write the Compound Effect of the Slight Edge. And I thought both books really complemented each other.

Well, now, you know what we're gonna have to get. We'll have to get Darren on an I love marketing episode. Yeah, I've connected him with.

We haven't had him on I.

No, no. And he just emailed me yesterday for another introduction to someone for his, you know, Success magazine interview. Because, you know, I've done been. I've been interviewed for the CD in the middle and. You haven't, Dean, have you?

No, I just was connecting with Bob about his article.

Gotcha.

But no, Darren, I haven't done Darren's yet.

Well, look, there's a theme here I want to share with all of our listeners. Once you actually start. And it's something that John said, which is if you want to be more successful and less life, it's who you hang out with and what you read and listen to. I mean, like Charlie Tremendous Jones wrote about that in his book years ago that where you're going to be 12 months from today is the people you hang out with and the books you read. And I think, is that all there is to it? Not necessarily. You actually have to take some action too, as a result of hanging out with the people and reading certain books. But the point is there's, I think.

That'S the point of the. I mean, the slight edge. The thing about it is they're easy to do, but they're equally easy not to do. And they don't damage you by not doing them today, just like they don't have big payoff by doing them today. But the long term effect, you know, that's really the case. That's a big concept. I mean, if you can really grasp that as, you know, even as a teen or somebody just starting out in your business career, understanding just how fast time flies, I mean, Joe and I were talking about this, that we're in the blink of an eye. We've been in business 25 years now, and you look at how fast that went and how true it is that some of the choices and the things that we've done over those 25 years have gotten us to where we are. But also the things that have really slowed us from being bigger, further richer than we have attained is the choices that we made over those 25 years too.

Yeah, absolutely.

So.

What is one thing you are. What is the one thing you're most excited about in your business right now?

Joe, I am so fired up about live webinars right now. Specifically Podcasters paradise on live webinars. What we've been doing now for about, I want to say about 15 straight weeks is we've been hosting live podcast workshops every single week for anybody in the world that wants to join. And on a weekly basis, we have hundreds of people that do join us. And we just share some incredible information about podcasting, about how it can benefit your business, how you can grow an audience, how you can create products, masterminds, coaching programs, all from actually just launching a podcast and becoming an authority, incredible figure in your niche, in your industry. And within that hour and fifteen minute long live webinar, we do a deep dive into Podcasters paradise as well, which is our $997 program for anybody that really wants to Learn step by step how to create, grow and monetize their podcast Podcast. It's something that we're really focused on. You know, we really talk a lot on Entrepreneur on Fire about my favorite word guys, which is focus, follow one course until success. So we have a great podcast going with Entrepreneur on Fire seven days a week. We've really become authority figures in the podcasting realm because of that seven day a week podcast and being awarded best in iTunes 2013 and best business podcast nomination for Stitcher radio. And so, and so we're using that to really build this amazing community that now is over 500 members and growing every single day with these video tutorials, community forums, and monthly webinars with today's top podcasters. And it's working for us. So we're just focusing on it. We're not doing that bright shiny object syndrome that infects so many entrepreneurs. You know, something's working for them, but they're like, oh, look at that, maybe that will work too. And then they're gone and, and they're losing their focus on the prize. So we're not losing our focus. We know that Podcasters paradise is amazing. We did $96,000 in sales just in January. So if we continue to focus to make it better, to improve our systems, it's going to continue to reward us and that's what we're excited about. Cool.

Cool. So what are the most important or best business or life lessons you've learned as a result of doing over 500 podcasts or just from doing your podcast in general?

Number one, find a mentor. Find somebody in your industry or your niche. That's crushing it. That's doing great things. And be ready and willing to invest in yourself. I was ready and willing to invest in myself. Day one, I went out, I found Jamie Tardy of the Eventual Millionaire running a great podcast for a number of years. And I paid $1,000 a month to be mentored by her. And just the knowledge that that gave me and the networking and, and all the time, energy and effort that I would have wasted without her is amazing and actually kind of scary to think about. Number two would be masterminds. The second best thing that I did was join a mastermind. And because I was getting into podcasting, I joined a podcasting mastermind, Cliff Ravenscraft's podcast mastermind. And being surrounded by like minded entrepreneurs was so powerful. Guys, like having other podcasters who were getting going through the same things and we're holding each other accountable was absolutely critical. Number three would Be go to a conference in your industry, in your niche, whatever conference that may be. It can be big, it can be small. Make sure that it's in your niche. People that you think that you want to listen to, go to that conference and see exactly what kind of attendees are there. Are you jiving with those attendees? Do they feel like they're, quote, unquote, your people? And then actually engage with the speakers there? After they're done presenting, go up and shake their hand, thank them, ask them a really detailed question. That's where I got my start. I went to Blog World, New York City 2012, and I got to shake the hands of people like Pat Flynn, Derek Halpern, Michael Stelzner, Michael Hyatt, introduce myself, share with them what I was doing, asked them to be a guest on my podcast, which was three months from being even published. It was just an idea. They said yes. I got my initial yeses and I came. Could use that information to go ahead and then to drive forward and get other interviewees, because now I had Pat Flynn in my lineup. Will you join me as well? And of course, people said, well, if Pat's taking the time, of course, probably I should too. And then just the last one is just start. Listen, use that compound effect, Use that slight edge and take 15 minutes in the morning, take another 15 minutes a night, and just start. I'm not saying quit your job and, and don't do anything else. I'm saying just take 30 minutes a day and focus on skills, tactics, and tips that you really want to improve upon in a niche that you're passionate about. In six months from now, that compound effect, that slight edge that Dean Jackson talks about, that different way of thinking is going to take over and you'll be shocked at how far you've come. And then maybe at that point, you will be ready for your leap.

Love it. Love it. Attack life, as my friend Dave kekich says, who's 70 years old and paralyzed from the chest down in a wheelchair, but in spite of that, has just done enormous things. And yeah, I think we all follow this advice. I've always done that from the very beginning. I mean, find people that are doing what you want to do and pay them. If you don't have the money, figure out how to create value from them. Because I don't think it's a good idea to ask people to do something for you if you don't have some way of creating value for them. And sometimes that's just really sincere appreciation. But doing everything you Recommended is the method of success for anyone at any level. So. Awesome. Now, who is your favorite person that you've interviewed on your podcast? For which interview? Other. Other than, you know. And, you know. I mean, I know me and Dean, certainly, because Dean was 1 in 1A. No, no. I mean, with Dean on there, it kind of diffuses the whole value of something. But I mean, even, you know, like.

The value ignites, bursting the flames.

Dean.

That's right. You know, we should come up with the reverse sort of thing. Like, are you ready to ignite? Because you know how John is all super excited on his.

I love it.

You know, and we're just kind of like, whatever.

Are you ready to douse?

It's like, I want to start a podcast or something.

Exactly, exactly. Are you ready to douse? Okay, let's suck every bit of enthusiasm out of our listeners today. No. So who are. Who's your favorite? Or what's. What's some of your favorite episodes?

Episode 400, I brought on the number one ranked female speaker in the world world, Sally Hogshead. She gave an amazing presentation here at San Diego in April at Social Media Marketing World. That blew me away. And I said, I have to get that girl on my podcast. She wrote an amazing book called Fascinate, and she came up with the fascination principles, which are like 60 or 80 different personality principles. And you take her quick little test, and it just nails you as far as who you are. Like, I'm the maestro, and I read the the Maestro, and I'm like, that is me. And I read, like, the four ones that are closest to me, and I'm like, yeah, that's kind of me. But, like, the maestro is me. I mean, like, she has nailed it, and it's amazing. So she came on, she crushed it, obviously, because she's such a great public speaker. And it was just her and myself on the microphone for, like 40 minutes, just going back and forth just about entrepreneurship and awesomeness. And then she ended up giving. Giving away 500 of those fascinate tests, which are like an $87 value at the end of the episode, to anybody that goes to, like, her site, which was sallyhogshead.com Fire and Fire Nation jumped on that offer. The 500 were gone almost immediately. And then for weeks afterwards, I was getting emails from people who took the test and who were applying the principles from the test to their lives and making rapid improvements and inspirational moments in their lives. And just that experience again from just one episode, because I have seven a week, and I Mean, that's kind of the power of entrepreneur on fire is that I'm doing 365 of these a year, but that one just really stood out and crushed.

That's great. We should get her just.

You need to get her on.

Well, she's here in Orlando, I think. Does she live here in Florida?

She was. When I was speaking to her, she was actually in Italy writing her book, but I was like on a retreat. So I don't know where she lives full time.

I think she lives here, but nonetheless should have her either way, no matter where she is.

Remember what the heck? From hotel is impossible.

Yeah. Anthony Melchori.

Yes. When we wanted to do an episode with him, which you ended up doing it because I couldn't do the time that you had ended up getting it scheduled with him. We told people to go to tweet and tell people they want to hear this person on I love Markey. We had all of our I love Marky listeners like, who are these people? So why don't we do that for Sally Hogshead? Why don't we have people tweet and say you need to be a guest on I love Markey.

Oh, she's coming out with a new book real soon, so she'll definitely come on. Just email me. I'll send. Set up an email intro.

Awesome.

Thanks.

And yeah, so I mean, this is going to be obviously a very sort of mutually. We're just going to share, you know, people back and forth and have.

Very incestual. Joe.

I was just going to wait for one of you guys to say the word. I didn't want to say.

I would never say that.

On entrepreneur on fire, do you think that your. I mean, because we actually use a little bit of profanity here because you know how vulgar Dean can be. Yeah. Do you think that's what's limiting some of our getting awards and stuff for. I love marketing.

I do think that's having some impact on you on the itunes front. Like when I was awarded best in iTunes 2013, I was contacted by the itunes team and said very point blank we're awarding you best in iTunes 2013. A major part of that is because your podcasts are very family friendly. Know that if you. If you do accept this award, we expect you to keep it along the same realm.

You know, it's hard for me to say what I would do in that situation because, you know, I don't know if I want to censor myself that. Although I don't think I'm you know, I mean, I actually think I'm not that bad. I mean, I just happen to appreciate profanity.

Appreciate it. He's an enthusiast.

No, but that's awesome. Okay, so what else do I want to ask you? I want to ask you, what can someone do right now to start making more money? Because a lot of people listen to. I love marketing because they obviously want to make money and they want to build an income and they want to be successful. So what are your recommendations?

So I'm a huge believer that a 2014 is the year of the podcast. Without a doubt. But you know what? Podcasting is not for everybody. And that's okay. So. So even more so than that, 2014 is the year of the niche. And what that really means to me, Joe and Dean, is that if you want to make more money, find a niche, niche down, and then niche down again, literally till it hurts. Until you're in this small little niche that you, as Joe would say, can effing dominate. And if you can dominate that niche and really create a passionate audience way deep down there in that niche, and then you can start to grow out. People try to go about it the wrong way. They want to start with this wide open demographic. I want to be able to see everybody. You know, when you're trying to serve everybody, you're serving nobody. Learn to start by something that you're uber passionate about, that you have really great expertise at, that you have a unique selling proposition in, and then work your way out. You know, for me, it was that seven day a week podcast interviewing inspiring successful entrepreneurs. Nobody was doing it. I was the only person in that niche. So guess what? I dominated it. Find that niche that you can dominate and then grow your audience from there.

Yeah, you said something earlier in the episode too, where you were told by people early on, you're never going to do a seven day a week podcast. You're going to get tired, you're going to burn out. And here you are. Now, of course, you can have this conversation five years from today and see how it is, but right now you're super enthusiastic about about it. Dan Kennedy used to write a big chunk of sales copy for me the first nine years in my business. And I used to go to lunch with Dan every week for two years straight for one period of time when he lived down here in Phoenix, except when he was traveling or I was traveling. So I spent a ton of time with Dan. And Dan is a very smart dude. I mean, we've got a great episode with him. I've had him speak at numerous conferences of mine. I've spoken at a lot of his conferences and all that sort of stuff. When I was in the late 90s early on Dan was the main guy that I would listen to. And Gary Halbert, who I originally learned marketing from, I had this idea that I wanted to start a really high level mastermind coaching group called Platinum Plus. And at the time we were doing $247 a month coaching groups via teleconference which people later started calling them teleseminars and thought they found something inventive. When people were doing that 20 years ago, basically I had this idea where I was like Bill Phillips who wrote a book called Body for life which was a huge bestseller over a decade ago. Longer than that, I was his marketing consultant and I was helping him with all these physique transformation contests. So I wanted to do an entrepreneurial contest called Better your best. And so I had lunch with Dan and I presented to Dan, my guru mentor, Hey, I have this idea of $1,000 a month coaching group because I think I can really deliver value and I'm going to give away my car to this people that enter this contest. I'm going to give give away a convertible Jaguar, blah blah blah. And he's like, nah, it's a bad idea, you know, it's too expensive, you know, people are going to drop out. And I mean in Dan, I would take everything he said as gospel. And this was like a week before my conference and I was just like, oh, you know, I was kind of really let down because he kind of, you know, made me feel it was a really bad.

Doused your flames.

Exactly. But I had this intuition in my gut feeling when I was like, you know, I think I can do this, I think I can pull it off. So sure enough like a week later I have a conference. There's 300 and something people there. I literally have my car in the corner of the room as an incentive, as a prize for people that are going to join a contest called better your best where they will compete to win my car a year from at the next conference we would award it. But that year we're going to put people into a 12 month program to compete for the piranha marketing so spokesperson ambassador to the industry. So they're actually winning a spokesperson position is what the contest was for. But it would happen to come with a prize of my choice which would be the car. And so I ended up signing up three people at the conference and I was like, oh this is going to be tough because I'm giving away an $80,000 car. But sure enough, we did follow up through direct mail because there was Internet again, was not a big thing back then. I mean it existed, but it wasn't like email marketing. It was still mostly direct mail for the carpet cleaning niche, which is where I first launched it. By the end of the 30 days I had 35 people that had joined that contest. It was super successful. And then I went and shared that in 2003 at a Dan Kennedy coaching and consulting boot camp where I did a talk. And then it spawned all of these people out of that world to start these high level coaching groups. And it literally, I mean, it changed the entire way that niche marketers would deliver coaching programs. Then we got hired by several people to start giving away cars. And then next thing you know, all of my friends over the years are giving away cars and having car contests. And as far as I know, I'm the very first person that ever did any of that stuff in the marketing world. Now the same thing with my 25k group, I, I see all these people that are doing very expensive high level mastermind groups and everything. The reason I bring that up is when it's the four minute mile, it's the Roger Bannister thing where as soon as someone does proves that it can be done. I think that's an important thing for entrepreneurs out there. Obviously there is the case where pioneers end up with arrows in their back, where you can try to be innovative and do something no one's doing and you can fall flat. But at the same time, if you actually really have your act together and you're really willing to work through the discouraging times, if you're not going to just jump ship as soon as you have some sort of failure or whatever, if you're willing to just stick with something that's intelligent though, I always have to do the caveat because sometimes the best way to get out of a hole is to quit digging it. So you, you know, persistence is intelligent to a point. You can be very persistent going down a failing path and it won't accomplish anything for you. But that being said, if you're really strategic and stuff, sticking with it and doing stuff, if you've got a gut feeling, I mean, check in and really a lot of times you will prove people wrong. And on the road to success you will run across people, including your mentors, that will tell you your ideas are bad or that it cannot be done. Entrepreneurs have got to face the fact that you're going to have a heck of a lot more people that are doubting you from the sidelines than people that are in the arena telling you it cannot be done. And so stay in the arena. Even Brene Brown, if you've ever seen her vulnerability speech on ted, if you guys have not seen it, it's unbelievable. But I met Brene earlier last year, and she was talking about, I only want to hang out with people that are in the arena arena because you can get advice from all kinds of people, but I want to really listen to people that have done it. What's cool about what I think we're doing here at I Love Marketing, what you're doing there about Entrepreneur on Fire. We're in the arena, we're doing it day in, day out, and we're talking to other people that are in the arena and we're sharing it with other people. This is an invitation for everyone that's listening to us. If you're listening to I Love Marketing, if you're listening to Entrepreneur on Fire, if you're listening or reading books, at some point, the only way you're going to win or lose is if you get your ass in the arena and you got to get to the point where instead of reading a bunch of books or listening to a bunch of podcasts, I mean, master what it is that they're telling and apply it and direct it into an area. Like you said, single focus. Mary Ellen Tribbey says, one thing done equals money. Five things undone equals no money. So pick that area and then go for it. So that's my ramblings to kind of wrap up this episode.

Well, Joe, I am honored a that you're comparing Entrepreneur and Fire to Breaking the Four Minute Mile. So thank you for that. I'm going to put that feather in my calf for sure. But I could not agree with you more. And one thing I just want to add to that eloquent speech you gave, because it's so true on every single level, is that my mentors were telling me not to do it, but my intuition, my gut, was telling me to do that. And guess what? Sometimes when people are zigging, when everybody's zigging, you zag, you go that other direction. You go into that blue ocean. And so to me, in a lot of ways, it was exciting that the top people in the industry were telling me not to do it. Because if the top people are telling me not to do it, that means that nobody was doing it. And that means that that was a wide open field. So let me just put an exclamation point on that theory because it worked 100%.

Yeah, absolutely. So, Dean, any final things from you? Because I know we're already a little bit over time, which is fine because, you know, whatever it is fine, that's how we roll.

A little bit more than they expect. So, John, thanks so much. That was really, really valuable.

That was great.

It's great to have you on finally.

Yeah. And so, John, for people that want to listen, obviously the website is eofire.com Anything else you want to say or share or recommend?

If you think that 2014 might be your year of the podcast, if you want to build your audience in that realm, just come join us on our free live weekly webinar. You can find out when the next one is@podcastersparadise.com dude, we should hire John.

To do our pitches.

Our voiceovers are fantastic.

How many episodes of I love Marketing have you listened to?

50.

50. Is there any that stand out as, like, your favorite?

The one that we were talking about earlier today was a great one during this episode that you brought up. It brought back some really great memories. So that one definitely stands out.

Okay, cool, cool. Well, there you go. Well, thank you, John. Always a pleasure. This probably won't be the last time that we have you on the show, so check it out, everyone, and do your thing and share your comments. And anyone that you know out there that would find this useful and valuable, share it with them. And we will talk to you next time on ilovemarketing.com thank you. Thank you.