The One With Marie Forleo and Yanik Silver - I Love Marketing With Joe Polish And Dean Jackson - Episode #26

Hey everybody, it's Dean Jackson and Joe Polish.

Ready to rock and roll today with all of you.

I love marketing.

We got a full house today, don't we?

Yeah, this is going to be a really super cool episode. And also we've got a couple of awesome, awesome guests and personal friends of ours and two of the sharpest marketers on the planet. And also all around, just great fun, awesome, high integrity people that deliver tremendous value. And so I think everyone in the I Love marketing community and world are going to love these two. And they are the one and only Ms. Marie Folio and Jannik Silver. Dean, I'd like you to give your take on Marie and Jannik in a moment, but I do want to let everyone know that Yannick, in order to coordinate this particular episode and do it right on the, you know, like a few days ago, the last episode we posted was on Necker island with me, Marie and Jannik interviewing Sir Richard Branson. And there's been just a ton of comments. Yeah, really appreciate that. Which is, which is great. Well, the interview was great.

You guys did a great job on the interview. It was so casual and relaxed and.

Informative and of course, in trying to pull something out of Richard's like, you know, pulling teeth, I mean, it was brilliant.

And he was so relaxed and quite smitten with Marie too.

Of course he loves Marie. I mean, how could someone love Marie? Now let me say this though, because I do want to let everyone know that, but there's going to be times during this episode where it's going to be a little noisy in the background because Jannik has had to position himself in the quietest place he could in an airport in order to be on this particular episode of I Love Marketing. So he's going to mute and unmute his phone whenever he has to talk. So when you hear some background noise, don't be annoyed by it. Just realize that Jannik is just working really hard to make sure he was here so he can contribute and be on I Love marketing. I like that.

Real paradigm shift right there.

Exactly.

Stephen Covey stories.

Dean, introduce these two and say something about them.

Well, I'll tell you what, I'm particularly happy to have these two on here because they're both good friends and I'm very excited about Marie Forleo being on this call with us because I knew Marie Forleo when, as you say, I'm very excited because she was. Years ago we did a tele class series on how to write, publish and sell money making ebook and Marie Forleo was one of the very first people who was in that class, and I'll let her tell a little bit about that story. But I'm very excited about that because look at her now. She's a big wig now. She's fantastic. Rich, happy, hot, all that stuff.

Rich, rich, happy and hot is her brand. I just want to clarify that because if you just say rich, happy, hot, that sounds.

Do you know anybody that personifies their brand better than Marie?

Maybe. Maybe I could. I don't know if he'd look at me versus Marie, rich, happy and hot, which one will get sort of similar, but definitely it would be Marie. So, Marie, welcome to I love marketing.

Thank you so much. Yeah. And when we dive in a little later, I definitely want to talk for a hot minute about that story because Dean really was. He's like my marketing papa. He really took me into this whole world. And I think that was over 10 years ago. So we'll dive into that a little.

Bit later for marketing. Who's your daddy?

Who's your daddy, baby?

Yeah, of course. Let me say this too, about both Marie and Jannik before we start asking them questions and they start talking about marketing and cool stuff. I was just with a friend over the weekend and he was mentioning to me about how one of the principles that hardly anyone really talks about, there's always marketing strategies and stuff and why people are successful. And everyone's always asking people that have what they consider having done well in business, how did you do it? What do you do? What are the strategies? And I'll say a commonality between all of us, which probably doesn't get talked about a lot, is that we really strive to have fun. I mean, we really go out of the way to have fun. And I'm not just saying that like, oh, just in a cliche sort of way. I mean, Yannick has built an entire business maverick business adventures. And he's been extremely supportive and my partner in doing these trips to Necker island for the last three years. And he does these crazy, outlandish trips all over the world where, you know, from fighter pilots to, you know, zero gravity flights, to Baja racing to, you know, you know, probably stabbing and fighting sharks with swords and weird stuff. But nonetheless, you know, both Jannik and Marie, one of the main things that they not only do in their own businesses, but for their clients is they really strive to make business an enjoyable endeavor. Because in my opinion, most of corporate America, and probably corporate whatever, worldwide kind of sucks and is mundane and is boring. And whenever you can set up your lifestyle and your business for yourself, for your team, for your vendors, for everyone involved with you, I think you're just going to do better, because why the hell wouldn't you? So let's ask Jannik to say something. And I know we're going to test this now. He's going to unmute himself and talk and we'll see how noisy it is in the background. So, Yannick, where are you at now?

Here I am. So I've been cornering the airport lounge, trying to figure out quite a spot. Not sure I got one. But, yeah, I'm totally with you on the fun element. I think that's a huge, huge part of doing business and figuring out how to bring out that authentic personality. And for me, it's that fun goofiness. I think you can do it in a lot of ways in your business.

Totally, totally. So let's start with, I guess, what do you do, Yannick? What do you do? What strategies do you use? What is your business all about? And that sort of thing. Because I wanted to lead into some specific tactics and strategies that I love marketing listeners and podcast subscribers can actually use in their business. But I first want people to get a real gist of who you are. Most people that are rabid followers of I Love Marketing have watched the interview that we did on Necker island with me, you and Marie, and they're interested in who the hell is Jannik Silver and who is Marie Foglio, so who are you? And then talk about kind of what you do and that sort of stuff.

Probably best known for the last 12 years, starting with a little idea at 3 o' clock in the morning, which is my first website. And then that started to explode and take off. And then I started teaching people how to do what I've done by taking their content, their knowledge or expertise, and turning it into something that they could sell online. And for the last three, four years, I've really created this maverick business philosophy of making more, having more fun, and also giving more. And combining that all together is what I call maverick entrepreneurs. Kind of these three really big pillars.

Yeah, well, you know, one thing I probably should mention is that you tie in, as does Marie, as do I. We tie into a lot of the things that we do into raising money for foundations, for charities, for entrepreneurism and things that we support, you know, all of us. I mean, that's what we do at Necker Island. When we do the trips to Necker island, we don't keep any of that money we literally give all of the money to Virgin Unite. And you go around the world and you actually raise money for schools and for kids. And why do you do that?

Well, I'm heavily involved in it just because I love the ripple effect that comes from it. I like never knowing that one donation that we can do. We're always involved in something that's either self sustaining or entrepreneurial related. It's not just typically to give a donation for a donation or for charity. In many cases, it's usually for something that can be self sustaining. It can be really like a seed that can plant something and grow something bigger. So any way that we can support entrepreneurship, and I know we have kindred spirits on the phone that they're all about that too. And that's what we're all about.

And one last thing before we switch over to Marie and then she goes through the same thing and then I'm going to let Dean ask some really more intelligent questions than I do. Since we all love marketing, what does marketing mean to you and why do you love it?

That's a great question. I think marketing gives you the opportunity to simply get in front of your customer in a way that positions you as either an authority, an expert. It sets you up to really, it seems like an easy question, but it sets you up to be the choice. And not only just the choice, but the preferred choice, the one that they're going to come to and really love to do business with you. So marketing is kind of everything that goes into before, after and even during when someone's handing over their money to you for incredible value proposition.

Yeah, totally.

And so why do you like it? I mean, why do you love marketing? You spent pretty much your whole career, well, maybe not in the very beginning, but you spent the majority of your adult career in the field of direct response marketing.

Yeah, I mean, I got started when I was 14 years old working for my dad telemarketing for latex gloves. And when I was 16 years old, I was out on the road selling medical equipment. So I have been doing it for quite a long time. And the reason I love it so much is it's just fascinating to me how you can use leverage in a lot of different ways with marketing. When I learned about direct response marketing, that leverage got even bigger. At that point, when I was just getting started, it would be, we could fax an ad, we're now still perfectly legal. We could do a broadcast fax, we could do a direct mail piece, we could run an ad in Physician Journal and Get a lot of doctors raising their hands and coming to us instead of me going out and cold calling like I was doing before. So that was the first kind of glimpse of leverage. And they were coming with a credit card in hand, and that was totally unheard of for selling medical equipment. And then I learned about, obviously, the Internet world, and then the leverage even just significantly increased because then we could have thousands and thousands of people hitting our website. And the marketing was doing all the work for us to get them predisposed to buy from us or even directly buy from us at that point. And that was. That was incredible. And to me, it's about the leverage. And that's what I love about marketing.

And, you know, Yannick has really become, really embraced this whole Internet lifestyle. And that's really what I think. You and I are very similar in that way, Jannik, that marketing, you say leverage, and you can really turn that leverage into an incredible lifestyle, can't you?

Oh, absolutely. I mean, you have your mailing list being that they know you, trust you, like you, and so do I, and says Marie and says Joe. And so if we need to put something out there, because we have such a history with our list and people that love us, so we can leverage that by putting out a great offer. And money will literally come in within minutes in many cases. And just to have that leverage and to be able to. To live the lifestyle that you want to create. And that's a big thing for me too, is creating the lifestyle first or at least thinking about what's most important. What are big rocks? The adventures, the unique experiences, Spending time with my family, growing my family, and then the business comes next, and how do we fit that around it? Not working 247 and then trying to figure out how to have a life around that part.

Very cool. That's awesome. Okay, so, Yannick, behave yourself in the airport, and we will come back to you momentarily. Marie Forleo spelled F O R L E O. You are just a total badass. You're funny as hell. You're just one of the most super cool, awesome people. You have a tremendous amount of fun, and you're just a sharp marketer, and Richard Branson loves you, so I can't figure that out. What do you do? What are you into? Why do you love marketing, all that sort of stuff? Tell us about you.

Okay, all right, so what do I do? The whole brand Rich, happy and Hot is dedicated to teaching women entrepreneurs how to mother effing, fall in love with marketing. Like, to really leverage online Marketing in particular, to grow their businesses so they can make more money and reach more people and have a great time doing it. But then we also kind of sit at the intersection of personal development, which is, you know, one of my first loves. I'm just fascinated with human behavior and psychology and, you know, why people do what they do and what makes people change. And what I didn't realize, I think when I was a little girl, you know, I used to actually do infomercials. You know, like little kids. When you're with your parents, you, like, make videos. I realized this a couple years ago. I actually have videos of me, I think, from when I was 7, selling, like, Pearl Cream in, like, home movies. And I was. I was fascinated with infomercials. I don't know what that has to do with anything, but.

No, I mean, that's. It probably has a lot to do with it. That's. I just had Any idea. That's interesting.

Yeah, really interesting. But so the whole business is really. For me, I am absolutely in love with marketing because I love understanding what makes people tick. And in my experience, it's like, you know, if you have a product or service that helps people, you know, changes their lives, improves their lives, helps them save money or make money or get healthier or be happier or, you know, be more impactful with their kids, it doesn't matter. Matter what you're selling, if you don't understand how to market it properly, it won't get in front of the right people, you won't make money, and essentially, you'll be stealing from the people that need you most. And so for me, marketing is just this incredible vehicle for connection and communication. And one of the reasons that I love it is because I feel like the best of who you are comes out when you're really marketing. Like, you have to really listen and understand someone else's needs. You have to dig in deep and really get to what are the psychological hot buttons? What are the pain points and the frustration points that another human being is going through that you can solve? And then it forces you to communicate on such a level that you're standing shoulder to shoulder with them and really let them know that you understand where they're coming from and that there's hope and there's help. And I think that marketing brings out the best in who we are. And that's why I love it so freaking much. And it just gets such a bad rap. I hate that. And particularly for women. Women are like most women, you know, this is obviously a Broad generalization that I'm working to change. So many women are like petrified of sales and marketing because they think it's, you know, it's like you use car salesman, it's slimy, it's pushy, it's too aggressive. And again, that's just total bullshit. It's not true.

Yeah, no, you're right. Well, you know, one thing, I will say a couple things and then Dean, love to hear your comments on this. The comment you made about, you know, you're stealing from people that you could help the most, which is a strong statement if you think about it. And I think it's an absolutely true statement. Because if you have something of value, be it, you know, something as simple as entertaining somebody, filling their stomachs with, you know, food because they're hungry, hungry or something that could like dramatically improve their income, their self esteem, their confidence, their effectiveness, their life in every area from health to fitness to money to, you name it and you've got a solution and someone's got a problem and you don't have the ability to communicate the solution to their problem in a way to where they will go and get it for money or for free or for whatever. Because as we've proven, all of these marketing techniques not only can work in a for profit business, but also in a nonprofit environment. Just like the interview we did with Branson on Necker Island. I mean, we've collectively between, you know, you guys have all been involved with me from the very beginning in the stuff we started doing with Branson. All of you individually, you know, Janek and you, Marie, have done things separately with Sir Richard. And I mean, as a group, we've raised over, you know, $3 million for Virgin Unite with the people we brought into that funnel. I mean, so all of these marketing techniques work in any sort of environment. And I believe that marketers and salespeople are saviors because if you don't have the ability to communicate to people to where they're going to go and get it, nothing ever happens. And you're right, it's bullshit that it gets a bad rap and people are viewed as, oh, you know, they're pushy, people love to be sold, they hate to be pressured and they confuse a lot of things that have nothing to do with the type of marketing that we teach with. If they just throw it under this umbrella called marketing and it gets a bad rap, which is ridiculous. It's like saying that a bottle of water is bad. Well, it depends. If you shove it down someone's throat and they choke to death. It's probably bad, but if they need a drink, it's probably really good. Well, marketing is like a gun. You can use it for going out and getting your food and for self defense in the business world or you can to move, create a movement or you can use it to try to scam people. So it's all in the application and the intention behind it. Most of the marketers that I know are some of the most caring, generous, awesome human beings on the planet that are making a gigantic difference. And there's a lot of people that have great products and services, but they're broke and they're not making an impact because they don't understand marketing. That was a stupid tangent I went on, but hopefully it's. I said one or two things that might resonate with someone.

Preach it, Joe, preach it.

Can I get an amen?

No, but I want to just like, I'll bring it back because, you know, Dean mentioned at the top of the call that I was one of the first students in that course. He was teaching about how to use, you know, ebooks to make money. And for me, I was just starting out as a life coach and I was like 22 years old, which I kind of had balls at that point because who the hell is going to hire a 22 year old life coach? Like, I hadn't really lived that much yet. So one of the things that Dean taught in that class and I was fresh out of college, so I was still in that mode and I kind of still am. I'm like a lifelong learner. So when someone who I consider to have expertise is teaching, you know, I take really good notes and I try and do my homework as fast as possible. Remember Dean said, you know, you have to really come up with a great headline. You know, you have to come up with a great hook because that's, you know, you need to capture someone's attention and you can't get any further until you do that. And he also told us to pick a topic that we're really passionate about, that if you really believe in something and you want to research it, you really want to go for it, put all this information out in this ebook. It should be something that you're interested in. It's going to go much faster that way. At the time, a big topic for me was women and relationships. I was engaged to be married and most of my coaching clients at that point were women. A lot of them, a big portion of their life was about talking about boyfriends or Husbands or things like that. I remember I came up with the title make every man want you. And I think, I don't know if Dean, you approved it or maybe I emailed it into you, say, what do you think of this? But it was a hot title.

It was.

I knew it right from the very.

Beginning, I think, yeah, yeah, yeah.

And it was make every man want you had to be so irresistible you'll barely keep from dating yourself. And like, that little ebook that Dean helped me get off the ground is actually a Trojan horse. Because while on the surface it seems like it's about dating, it's about much deeper shit that's way more important than getting a guy. Not that getting a guy is not important, but it's about spiritual principles and things that help your whole life. And point is, is like, but that's marketing. Like, I always tell people, I don't mind if I have to trick you into something really good. If I get like coming up with a fancy title that hooks your attention because there's so much noise out there, if I'm going to deliver something great, you'll thank me for it later. And that was a lesson. Dean, I don't know if I'm like twisting your words, but I feel like you started planting those seeds in my head very early about what it means to really be a great marketer and deliver amazing value. And so I want to thank you for that.

I mean, you, you articulated it perfectly. And that's, I think, because you really got it and you've really embodied it in everything that you've done since, you know, when you really understand that the bottom line of marketing is, is, you know, we talk about how marketing makes selling almost, you know, unnecessary or very easy because they're, they're coming to you preconditioned. Well, what you're talking about here is having a clearly articulated, you know, what's in it for me message that you've got is really the fuel that makes marketing work. And it's, you know, everybody's very self centered. They're only focused on what they really want. And when you are giving them exactly what they want in a way that's compelling, it just, it attracts people so powerfully. You know, how could a woman who is reading that title and wants to find the right man, how could they resist a title like make every man want you?

Right?

It's impossible. Just like anybody who's going through a divorce that they don't want can't resist a title like stop your divorce. You know, when you get like the whole thing though has to be that you have to deliver on what it is that you are packaging. You know, you can't, you can't have just the title and have it be empty and not have a really great strategy to help them make every man want them. Yeah, that doesn't work. You have to really, truly deliver the very best solution that you can for them. And if you know that that's absolutely true. It's just like you said, sometimes they might not even know it and you know that they're going to thank you later. I always say to people, it's like if you. When people are reluctant to really get their message out there because they feel like that's kind of pushing their message on people, I kind of point out to them, I say, you know, if you were, if we were. I just said it two days ago in a cafe with somebody. I said, if we were sitting right here and this lady in the next booth here started going into anaphylactic shock, she started having an allergic reaction and you had an EpiPen right there, would you not go over and help this woman? You know, wouldn't you feel a responsibility to do something? And you know, it's almost like when people's pain is clear and urgent, like going into an allergic shock like that, you're going to do anything that you can for them. But when we have, when their pain is more internal or their more, you know, it doesn't seem like a life or death thing. We're often more reluctant to really kind of help people, you know, or let them know that you can help them.

Right.

Not that same kind of conviction about what you do.

Right.

Which you do.

Yeah. And you know, that book has turned into like from an ebook to self published to regular like traditional New York publisher and it's in 11 languages around the world, that little thing. So I wanted to thank you for that because I don't feel like I ever had a chance to really properly thank you for being my marketing. Who's your daddy?

Well, you know, I will just, I will just say that I don't think he deserves anything, but I'm very happy for the success of it. It even allowed Jannik to come to grips with his attraction to men. So, you know, make make everyman want you.com, i think is the website for that book, right? Yeah, I think it's become a movement at this point. But you know what?

I would.

And by the way, Jannik, before you're just setting up like how you're going to insult the hell out of me. I'm totally kidding. So basically, I want to point something out about what Dean, you said was stop your divorce and make every man want you. We did an episode a couple episodes ago on more cheese on I love marketing. And anyone that's not heard that episode should really listen to it because Maria and Jannik and Dean Masters at knowing how to convey cheese. You know, what's important and what I would always tell people about women that I know that were single and they want to meet someone or they just broke up or whatever. I still, I've told so many women to read Make Every Man Want yout because it's a really awesome book. You use it as a hook. But any man, any woman could read that book and get tremendous, great life advice on it. And I would always tell people that, you know, who's Marie Folio? It's like, well, you know, she's kind of like a life coach that is sane. Because I know a lot of life coaches that really are kind of crazy. And, you know, the book is fantastic, but it's a great lesson in marketing and it's a great lesson on what you can actually do with words. So even if you're a dude, get the book Make Every Man Want yout just kind of keep the COVID hidden because your friends will think you're weird. I'm sort of joking here. You're supposed to chuckle a little at that.

No, I think I should actually. I think I should read it, like in New York, because I'm from New York. I like them when they read it on the subway. Like, just, you know.

Listen.

What I'd like to hear from you and Yannick, and it could be depending on how many you got currently in your mind right now. I'd like to. During this particular episode Jannik mentioned before, during, after Dean created the podcast before, during and after model in real estate. And I think probably anywhere else I've heard it. What do you do before the sale? Using marketing to get business. What do you do during the sale to increase your average sale, to make it happen, to bond with people, to set the stage for referrals and all that? Then what do you do after the sale so that people come back to you? Introduce and refer your business to others? I'd love to hear one to three strategies in each of those areas from both you and Jannik that are. I love marketing listeners could actually apply in their own businesses because both of you have so many strategies and techniques and things that you use and have used to teach other people. And I think it would be a real treat for everyone that is listening to actually hear some of the techniques and strategies that both of you guys use. So does that sound like a good idea?

Let's do it. And Marie, you want to start with a couple before things, and then I can chime in or vice versa.

Yeah, why don't we do that? It sounds like you're in a quiet place, so I'll go fast. So before some strategies that I use. One is just a method that I use to write copy that I find is really effective and helps people. Because a lot of people struggle, I find, with writing copy, they think it's really hard. I'm not a writer. I can't write copy to save my life. I always talk about it. I use the friend filter. Every piece of copy that comes out of my little fingers into my keyboard and into the world of the interweb, I write it through the friend filter, meaning if I wouldn't write this to a friend, it's not going on any piece of my marketing. So that stands for emails, that's blog posts. That's everything. So I literally treat my audience like they're my buddies. I'm from Jersey. I may throw a couple F bombs here and there. You know what I mean? I talk very, very casually, and I let people into my life and tell them about little details that are going on or what's happening or struggles that I'm having or something that I just overcame, just like I would with my friends. And I've found that is one of the most effective before strategies because it instantly increases the know like and trust factor. It makes it easy. I don't have to pretend to be someone I'm not. I'm a very CAS person by nature, and I'm a very loving and connected person by nature. So I just can just be more of me in my business. So there's no difference between what I'm doing in my work life and, you know, in my personal life. So that's just one. And I want to hand it over to Yannick and I'll think of a few more.

Okay, so I have something that I've created, which I call my astonishment architecture. And that's just like we're talking about Joe, which is before, during, and after. It's really for any given product or service, there's a level of expected service or satisfaction and value by the end user. And it's kind of our job to astonish them at each point of that contact or interaction. And on top of that, provide surprise and delight beyond their expectations if we can. And that's what creates an incredible word of mouth that is even more powerful right now with how connected we all are online. And so you can look at, there's a lot of brands that do this incredibly well. I mean, we started this conversation because of the connection with Richard Branson. And I think Virgin America is probably one of the best companies out there that really does this in a big way, where they started with a blank slate and said, what sucks about airplanes? I'll sit here in the Delta Lounge, but hopefully they'll hear me. But there's so many things that suck about air travel. And they just went down the list and they decide that they're going to hit every single one of those, or at least as many as they could. And they could hit a lot more than they even thought about. Even something as simple as putting a plug in your seat. And that was just incredible. So before anyone interacts with you, and I love what you're talking about, Maria, with getting them to know you, I'm a big fan of, I call it the Good, Bad and the Ugly. And so on my blog you'll see a lot of good stuff, like if I travel somewhere incredible or have a great experience or incredible adventure or whatever the case is. And then the bad might be, I don't know, I'll post up a video of me doing stand up comedy at the Improv in D.C. when I try that one time. Or I don't know, something else really silly. Or the Ugly might be me falling out of my attic when I was trying to do something for my wife and she sent me up there because I've never been in an attic and never knew that you only had to walk on the joints there. But most people are just too scared. It's silly. And I literally fell through and luckily I ended up stepping to the left instead of the right so I would end up down two flights of stairs. That would have been great. But it was. You know, most people are just kind of scared to put that out there. They want to look perfect and they want to look like they have it all together. And you really connect and bond with people. Even if you're not a personality based marketer, you don't have to be, but you can create even like a creation story. You know who does this really well is if you go around and shopping. When food shopping, go to Whole Foods. So many of the food there has great stories on the packaging. You look at Tom and Tom, Like Nantucket nectars. You look at Clif bars, I call them creation story, which is how something started. And people always love that. They want to know how did you get started and, and where did you come from? And it's just natural for us. It's a psychological trigger that the stories. And yes, that's just one way that we can kind of help prime the pump there for that before.

I've got one more to share. Something that just came to mind that we do consistently. It's actually a little strategy that has multiple benefits. So one of the things I always love to do is ask questions and ask, you know, and find out directly from our readers and from our audience like, you know, what's going on, what's frustrating them, what are they struggling with in their business, how can we help? And so I've, you know, always put on any website that we're, you know, if we're promoting an event or you know, something that we're selling like an information based product rather than just trying to, you know, totally just get the sale off of the website. I often have something like, if you have more questions, email us, you know, and have someone just really take all those questions that come in and categorize them because they're perfect objections. They're either ideas for new products or services. They're fodder for me for, you know, now we do Q and A Tuesdays, Every Tuesday on MarieForLeo.com where I answer readers questions. But you know, you'd be surprised at how many businesses don't go out and solicit that information and really let customers on a very basic, simple level that you actually care about solving their problems, you want to actually hear from them what is going on. And that someone on the other end, meaning customer service, is not just going to either ignore the message when it comes in. We actually have people on our team. My one girl in particular answers every single email individually. It is not a standard response. She actually reads it, responds, tries to help them out. And I think that makes a huge difference. Again, as the market gets more crowded, you know, it only takes that extra little bit of effort to let people know up front that you're the kind of company that cares. And it's going to take the time to respond that they're an individual, they're a human being. Even though, you know, the Internet seems like this place where people can be anonymous. When you take that extra step to let people know that there's, you know, that you actually care about them, I think that's huge. In the before phase.

Yeah, that's a great one. And that extra step is absolutely huge. Do you want to talk about a couple during Brie?

Yeah, go for it, Janek.

So you and I both love, we love design, we love brand experiences. Just the whole I look at every single touch point really contributes to the whole. And I like even from the, the package arriving at your door, if you're selling something that might be shippable, like I'm a big fan of this T shirt company called Johnny Cupcakes, which is kind of a silly name, but this guy started selling out of his VW fan all these T shirts and then he makes these very limited edition T shirts. And literally when the package arrives at your door, it looks like it could be cupcakes. And my wife loves cupcakes and cakes and anything like that. And, and she's like, she's all excited and then very quickly disappointed when she opened it. It even says like freshly baked on there. And so she opened it up and it's a T shirt. She's like, ah, all right, that's for you. But I think that's great.

I mean, like, not only do you get impressed, but you disappoint your wife at the same time.

It's a win, win all around. Even something as simple as your packaging and that design elements, they go a big way in terms just the during so as they're experiencing what's going on. So for that first touch point and you know, when I got a Vudu computer before I got my, when I switched over to Mac, the Vudu PCs were really cool. It's a really high end gaming PC laptop. And you get the crate and you open up the crate that it comes in and it looks like this crate that comes out of the jungle and you open up the box and it actually has a sound card in there that starts playing the unique tribal music and you feel like you're part of a tribe that belongs to voodoo PC. So those are two that comes to mind real fast.

You know, Janik, that's all part of what you talk about with your astonishment architecture. And I wanted to talk a little bit about the word astonishment because you could. A lot of people say you gotta, you know, deliver a great experience, you gotta wow people, you know, But Astonish is like taking it even up a level, you know, because the things that you're describing are things that you don't expect. And if you start looking at that, where in your touch points can you add that level of astonishment I think that really, it all helps build that, the feeling that people have that really enforces your marketing, everything.

Yeah, absolutely. And I got one quick story and then I'll hand this over to Marie because it's actually a New York story. So I was dining with a friend of mine at the modern restaurant in New York City, Danny Myers restaurant. And he has a great book out, by the way. And he teaches his weights at what he calls enlightened hospitality. And it's kind of to anticipate what's going on in the patron's mind and act on that. And so this is a pretty fancy restaurant. It's a big tasting menu, big wine pairing menu. And the couple behind me and my associate, they were having this knockout drag out argument. I mean, just, you know, you name it. Just really, really bad. And I can kind of compartmentalize and keep everything separate. But he was having a really hard time. And the waiter literally came over and there's like 18 plates out. He literally came over with a pitcher of water and spilled it on the, on the table. And he said, oh my God, Oops, I can't believe I did this. Or I'm so, so clumsy. I can't believe that we have to move you right away. And literally swooped up everything and moved us to a quiet corner. And if that's not astonishing, I don't, I don't know what is. And obviously I have to tell that story so many times because it really is so above and beyond.

Yeah.

Love it. You want me to jump in with some?

Yeah.

So a couple of doring. I'll give you two examples from my own business and then one example from another business. One of the things we do for every time we have like a digital learning experience. You know, recently we did Rich Happy and Hot B school, which is online business school for women who want to make it big. And one of the things that we did, which was fun for me, I love the medium of video. I love creating videos and making them kind of outrageous and silly and goofy and fun. And the moment after someone purchases, we had this whole kind of happy dance video, which was hilarious. And then taking our, you know, our customers through exactly what they need to do next. So there was no question, there was no stone left unturned. So it wasn't like, wow, I just dropped a lot of cash. Now what? You know what I mean? So there wasn't that letdown feeling. So we kind of kept the celebration going and really thought through as best as we could through the customer experience. So that they would know beyond a shadow of a doubt that the thing they just invested in was perfect for them. And then also after that, like a day or two later, started releasing some extra surprise bonuses, you know, letting them know about extra cool things that they were getting that weren't even advertised, that weren't included in the offer. One of the things that we do in our Live program, so if you've got a business that's live and, you know, you work with people one on one or in any kind of real person interaction in our Mastermind, excuse me, program, I often like to do the same thing. I think Janik and I are a lot alike in this sense where we love surprises. So at one of our Mastermind meetings, I set up a private boudoir shoot for all of our ladies so they had a chance to, like, for a whole day, be it actually half a day, be in this, like, penthouse at a gorgeous hotel and get these amazing photographs done that they could take home and give to their husbands, their boyfriends or whatever. So it was like bringing one of their fantasies to life that they just didn't know was going to happen. And I find that, like, what Yannick was saying, like adding in those surprises that astonish people, that really let them know that you've taken the time to think through what they really want or what they may not even know that they want, but you're delivering is huge. And then another New York restaurant story, which was awesome. It was a place called Del Posto, the Mario Batali restaurant. That's one of his higher end places downtown in the Chelsea area of New York. And Josh took me there one year for my birthday. There's one of those fancy places that we don't normally go to because I'm not a very fancy girl. We go in and we're satisfied.

You're kind of low rent. I just wanted to throw that in there.

I'm kind of low rent. Thanks, Joe.

I'm kidding, I'm kidding. Let me undermine, like, what you're trying to say here.

Yeah, no, that's cool. I'm used to you. It's been like 10 years since we've been friends. I'm used to this shit. Anyway, so I was about to put my purse down, and up come someone from out of nowhere with a cushion for my purse so my purse would not hit the ground. They swooped in and put a little footstool under my purse right before it was going to hit. And I was just. I was blown away. I was like, well, I guess that's what we're paying, you know, $40 a plate for or whatever it was. But it was those kind of little details that don't take that much that are easy to put in place that I think, frankly, most business owners are a little lazy, and they just don't. They don't give it that extra thought.

I love, Marie, how you're talking about how you just thinking through the customer experience and what happens next, and especially that one point when they've given you their faith Happy Dad. I mean, that's the point where they're like, oh, my God, what did I do? And you're just reassuring them. That's really smart. That's excellent.

Thank you.

Yeah, I'll talk a little bit about a couple after ones. And it kind of seamlessly blends in. Right. So is what you just said, is that an aftermath because they just gave you money? So that technically, I guess a minute after that, it could be after. But I look at it as anything that we can do to think ahead and create those surprise experiences. Just like you're talking about. I call these love gifts. And I like sending out random gifts to our members throughout the year at really kind of random intervals. So not necessarily the holiday time or some of the normal times we send out a birthday gift, but that's kind of par for the course. But we might send out a. Like for Thanksgiving. Last gift that we sent out was a book, the Alice Shrug book by Ayn Rand with a quote from John Galt on a T shirt and a sterling silver coin that they all got was a John Galt coin. And so that was kind of cool. And, you know, the people who I think do this really great, not to make this a Virgin love fest, but also signed up for Virgin Galactic, and they. They do this incredible job of the love gifts and creating what I call conversation crutches and something that you have to talk about. So when you first sign up, they send you this massive book. I mean, like, I have a picture of it somewhere where Wine Spectators Magazine that I used to get is a big, oversized magazine, and this would be like eight times the size of Wine Spectators. Massive, massive book that comes to you. A hardbound kind of book with all these HD photos of space that's taken from Spaceship one and all these. The history of Space. And sitting in my office, unfortunately, I work at home, so nobody really comes in there that often, but when a few people do, they always look at it because it's so big and you have to talk about it. They also Sent me these great cufflinks that I used to wear until I lost them that were of the spaceship. And I call them conversation crutches because people are looking at you and they're like, what? And you have to mention it and talk about it. And it's a great way of getting the conversation towards them, really. And so think about that, your ways that you can establish it provides surprises. It's thoughtful for you, so it just helps them for you. Okay.

And hey, Yannick, you're starting to cut out a little bit. But I'm thinking the idea is that everyone should send their clients condos, because if they live in a condo, I mean, that is a conversation clutch. Every time someone's in that condo, you're.

Like, yannick sent it to me.

How do you not talk about it?

You know what I mean? Well, I guess it depends on what the dollar amount is that they spent with you.

Yeah, no, exactly. Cat condos. I was actually. I don't even know if I mentioned this. I think I mentioned this on a past episode of I Love Marketing is, you know those little cat, like, things that have carpet all over them and you know, they're like little. They sell them in pet stores and stuff. And like someone was selling them on the side of the road and it was just the power of good copy. There's a big sign that said cat condos. And I'm like, that's just a. What a great way to rename something stupid, you know? Yeah.

And of course you stopped and bought a few, right, Joe?

Not only did I no, I didn't buy any, but I took pictures of it. I literally turned my car around. I said, I got to take pictures of this. You know what I'll do? I'll find that cat condo picture and we'll pop it up on I Love Marketing. At some point in time, unless I forget, then we won't. And then we'll then have ruined the expectations that our I Love Marketing clients have for us. And then I will have destroyed the before, during, after segments that you guys are doing such a great job of giving people ideas for. Can I say one thing too, though? That is a commonality that I want to reiterate is that Jannik and Marie really go out of their way to think about what is going on in the minds of their clients and prospects. I mean, it all goes back to the famous Robert Collier line. You want to enter a conversation that is already existing in your prospect's mind and they are really thinking through the experience. Because whatever product or service someone is selling if they can get something similar, or at least they perceive it similar somewhere else, the thing that is going to differentiate you is the experience and how you handle them. And that's what great marketers that actually care about repeat business, really focus on and really think about. Because. If you don't exceed their expectations, there's nothing worth talking about. I mean, if you want word of mouth marketing, you got to give people something worth talking about. Just like you were saying with conversation crutches. So go on, Jannek, because this is really good.

No, I'm going to go ahead and turn it over to Marie here after.

Okay, so after one of my favorite things and Joe and Dean, I actually sent you guys. Let me just ignore that. That was another call coming in. I sent you guys a little text picture of this. But for our B school program, we made up mugs that say, I freaking heart marketing with RHH B school on the back. And we send that out to every woman who graduates the program as a little graduation gift. And I can tell you, you know, it's a very simple gift. It's something actually that I would like. You know, I love drinking out of my little B school mug. I can't tell you how much goodwill that thing's created. Not only that, but just people tweeting it. Oh, I'm drinking out of my mug. Oh, it reminds them that they love marketing. So I think, you know, again, taking it to that next level of thought. There's so many people that can send out cheap chotkis, right? I've done something cool after. That's not what you want to do. You want to take it to that next level and really think about, like, what Something like Yannick just said, which is beautiful. Like a conversation crotch. Like, so many of our ladies have that mug just sitting out on their table or sitting out near their workplace or, you know, they're making videos and all of a sudden they're drinking out of the B school I love I freaking love marketing mug. And I cleaned it up. I have to say there was an internal debate because I do like dropping. Dropping F bomb when I realized there were so many of our customers who have young children at home. And I said, you know what? Let's clean it up and say, I freaking love marketing. But, you know, it's just a simple example of something we do after they graduate, after the program's done, you know, and that's what they get. But I love Dean. I just want to thank you for even creating that concept. Because it's helped me think about the business in different ways. I'm trying to think if there's anything else special that we do sometimes.

Can I jump in on one thing, Marie? Because that reminds me of something. The mugs are a perfect example. We have a copywriting course that we sell and we put together a personalized mug for everyone. And we give them this really cool comic, this cartoon of a woman and a man sitting at their computer and money, like, pouring out of their computer. I mean, we did this way back. And so they got a great response, just like you were saying. And it's a personalized one. So it says, wow, Dean, you really are an Internet copywriting genius. And people love their personalized mug with a picture of the money overflowing out of the computer. It's kind of silly and you were saying stuff, but it's cool and personalized. You definitely have to add that element of cool fun and not make it like a silly little pen that says, thanks for buying from us or whatever. Right?

Yeah.

Well, unless it's a gold pen, it has my name on it and it's sent to me.

Unless it's a show polish head. Everyone really needs one of those.

You know what? I swear we're going to have to get our own store on. I love marketing, Dean. I mean, this is just making me. You know, we need to be mass distributing. I love marketing mugs, but I don't even think we should give them to our listeners. Because after all, it's not like we're charging them for this. They should be sending us money and we should make maybe that'smaybel. Keep asking us, what's your monetization model with? I love marketing.

How are you going to make money.

Off all these people? And me and Dean are like, you know, we don't have a monetization model. We're just going to record really good content and put it out in the world. And if people like what it is, we have to say, they can go find us on Google and buy other shit from us. Because we do sell stuff. We all make a living. But it's like with. I love marketing, but actually, I love that whole. I love. You're just giving me this whole idea of how we're going to have a catalog.

It would be great.

Yeah, we got to hurry. Those are all fantastic ideas. Now, anything else before dirty and after that you guys want to mention before I ask you another question to kind of wrap up here?

That's all I got.

I'm going to say Something then. Because what Jannik and Marie are both demonstrating is that they've taken the time to look at the entire experience. And that's really what that before, during and after model does. It gives you kind of a roadmap to kind of look at it from the moment somebody shows up on the radar till the time that.

You'Ve already.

Done business with them, they're a client, and you're nurturing that lifetime relationship with them. And everything that they're talking about has come from taking time intentionally to view that experience from their customer's perspective, from the person who they're serving, from their experience. And I have heard this secondhand. So maybe Yannick can tell me whether this is true or if either of you know it for sure. But the reason that Virgin Airlines is so popular, especially Virgin America, is I had heard that the exercise that they did in creating the whole thing was go through an exercise saying, listing two things. What does everybody love about flying? And they brainstormed all of the things. Everybody loves leather seats, everybody loves leg room, everybody loves having their own tv, Everybody loves a power plug in the thing, all of the things that are positive experiences. And then what does everybody hate about flying? And listing all of those things and trying to build that product, build their whole airline around giving people more of what they want, less of what they don't want. And sounds. I mean, everything that Jannek and Marie have been sharing is really kind of demonstrating that that's exactly the mindset that they take. But had you heard that exercise before, Yannick, about vergence?

Yeah, and I heard it as a kind of a very open. It just gave them an open, blank slate and said, okay, create what would really work and be amazing as an airline. And absolutely, they went through what works, what doesn't work, and flying. And I think it's a powerful exercise to just sit there. And it's a simple thing to do, but it's a harder thing to execute. It's simple to think about it, but harder to execute. And quite frankly, we don't always get it right every single day either. But we strive for that. And we try to create the best customer experience that we can because we know in the end that's where the real return on investment is.

Exactly. I mean, to borrow something from probably originated in 12 step groups. It's about progress, not perfection. And so no one's going to do any of this stuff perfectly. But the point is, if you can keep adding improvements, everything constantly gets better. And I mean, I think one of the ways to stay engaged, because both of you are certainly very engaged. And I mean, even people always ask why it's so funny. Dean I'm starting to run into people in gyms, in places where they're actually noticing me on video, on I love marketing, which I get noticed once in a while. It's not like we're celebrities or anything. It's just marketing world. People kind of hear about us and notice us and stuff. And I'm running into more and more people, and they're like, I hope you guys never quit doing this. I hope you guys never quit doing it. And it's like the reason you do certain things is sometimes it's just simply money. However, the more engaged you are and the more interesting it is, the more your incentive is to improve it. That's why we're totally into I love marketing because it's fun for us. We explained that in the very beginning episodes as to why we're doing this and what the motivation is behind it. Marie and Jannik, Like I started off with, I think having fun and making your business enjoyable is critical. And I think there's a lot of skilled people out there. They may have their own businesses, they may work for a company, but if you're not having fun, I think it's only a matter of time before you either check out or your life just becomes so miserable that you hang around because you need a paycheck. And I think that's just a shitty way to live. Everyone cannot instantaneously change their entire businesses to be enormously fun. However, there are things that people can do. Is there any recommendations that you have or mindsets that you have about enjoying business and fun that you can share with our listeners that would kind of give them some things that they could think about or do to make the next five to 10 years of their life infinitely better? Any thoughts on that?

Start with you, Donna, or Marie?

No, let's start with you, since you're like, yeah.

I'm like, yeah, baby, I could talk about this all night. So a couple of things that come to mind are, first of all, just a kind of policy we have in my company is we don't do anything. We don't say yes to any project if it does not sound like fun. So there's that old saying, if it's not a hell yes, it's a hell no. And I live by that. So if a partnership, an idea for a new product, an idea for a program, if any part of me just starts to shrink or die or my head Just starts to shake. No, when I think about it, it doesn't get on the schedule. That means it doesn't happen. So the only things filling up our time are things that we absolutely freaking love. And I think on a micro level, you know, the way to add more fun to your company is simply to not take yourself so damn seriously. Like, sounds silly, but dance breaks. You know, if you're working from home, you can work in your underwear, which should give people some laughs or some cries, depending on how you look right now. But there are so many little things that you can do. Even sending little jokes around with your company and not being so formal and buttoned up. That can do a lot if you think about what you do in life. Like, people look forward to the weekend or they look forward to when they don't have to work. What are the things that you're doing during those times that you can start injecting into your workday? I love to listen to music. I love dance around. I love to act silly and goofy and act like an idiot. And I do that with all the people that I work with. And you know what? That makes their job a lot more fun. Because they know even though we're getting things done, it doesn't have to happen in such a serious, buttoned up, like, you know, eyebrows forward together kind of way.

Well, that's awesome. I think with what we do. And it's interesting, you talk about the music and dancing around and that's like, so not me. Unless it's like a really cheesy, like, 80s song and I'm in a costume or something. But it's so funny.

Janik, I've seen you dance. I've seen you dance, brother.

I don't know. Yeah, it was tough with my lack of any rhythm. But the reason I mentioned that is because there's some things that are going to be authentic and genuine for you. And it's not like, okay, I heard Marie say that I need to dance around. So, okay, every Friday at 4 o', clock, we're going to turn on this good music. If that doesn't fit you, it's not going to work for very long. So I'm always talking about what's authentic, what's genuine for you. And I love that fun part because there's always something that is fun and you can get into your business. And I'm a big believer in unless you schedule it, it's never going to happen. So I have this huge Ultimate Life list of all the things that we want to do Experience, have people that we want to meet and so forth. And unless things get scheduled, it's just too easy to say I'm too busy and have all sorts of stuff crop up in your inbox that you're going to keep giving more and more attention to instead of taking care of the things that are important but not urgent. I like it.

Holy sense. That's exactly what I'm trying to say.

Joe, what about you? I know you like to send really inappropriate gifts to your friends, to high level people that you want to impress.

Yeah, actually it's true. It is a strategy. I mean, I think you should send all kinds of goofy gifts from funny statues to depending. I think most people, in some different ways, shapes and form. It's kind of like have situational sort of behaviors. It's kind of like if someone drank beer, you would ask people. Yes, most people drank a beer in their life. Most people been the truth church.

Yes.

Have they ever drank beer in church? No. So there are certain ways that you do certain stuff. But I think if you really look at your genius network as an example, genius networking is networking at a much different level. And being a genius networker means you network in a much different way. I think being a genius marketer has a lot to do with really thinking about how to impact people. And one of the best ways to impact people is to make them laugh, is to make them smile, is to mess with them. Is to not, like you said, Marie, not take yourself so seriously. I mean, there's this ongoing running relationship I have with Marty Edelston, the founder of Boardroom Inc. $100 million plus a year company that they're awesome and they publish Bottom Line Personal and a bunch of different newsletters. And basically he's sent me a box of 27 live chickens, which people, if they type in my name and I think chicks on YouTube you can see a video of the chickens he sent me. And I've sent him Spider man toilet seats. Last month he sent me, which was ridiculous, a hamburger, a real hamburger in a wrapper that was moldy FedEx and a burrito. And I'm like, what the hell is, what is Marty doing? Marty is a character, but it's funny and you cannot not think about that stuff. Part of it is just we send people relevant things, but we also send them non relevant things. I've done a whole campaign where we've sent many of our top clients finger puppets. And you can buy finger puppets at Ikea for a pretty low price. There's a website we Use called a little something that, you know, you can send people little gifts. But yeah, I'm a big fan of sending people really ridiculous, annoying things. Some that are so inappropriate I won't even mention them here, but those are typically reserved for. No, those are typically reserved for Evan. Evan Pagan and Frank Kern are the biggest recipients of the completely inappropriate things because those are not very nice people.

I have to say that you sent me some pretty inappropriate holiday cards that Josh, before he knew you, was like, who the hell is this guy sending you something with big penis in it? He wasn't very happy. But then of course, he got to know you and it all worked out.

Yeah, that's great. I don't even remember that. So, I mean, I'm glad we got that on. I love marketing.

That's good.

That is fantastic. But yeah, I mean, I think Dave Kekich, my buddy who's been in the wheelchair for over 30 years, has one of the Kekich credos that said, things are seldom as bleak when they're gone going bad or seldom as great as they seem when they're going good. Lighten up, you'll live longer. And I think there's so much wisdom in that. And one of the things my criteria kind of like what you said, Marie, if it's not a hell yes, it's a hell no. Is elf is this easy, lucrative and fun or is it hard, annoying, lame and frustrating? Is it hard, annoying, lucrative and frustrating? And so my criteria is, is this going to be easy, lucrative and fun? And things aren't always easy in the beginning. So we don't go into something thinking, if it's not super easy, don't do it. However, if things are low hanging fruit and super easy, do them. And if they can never be easy, lucrative and fun, I don't think it's worth going into. And I think there's this great saying, be willing to destroy anything in your life that's not excellent. And I hope one of the takeaways from people listening to this episode is that they really take a look at their business. They really strive to make it more enjoyable. Right now, think of 10 people that you could send a really funny, goofy card. It doesn't require putting something inappropriate in it, but just sending them something that will make them laugh. Just start that. Because the best way to get started is to get started. Marie and Janik, you guys both produce incredibly valuable great information products. You both put on events and seminars. You both, you know, Marie, you have a great blog. Yannick, you have all kinds of great stuff from Maverick Business Adventures. How do our listeners find out more about you guys.

For me?

Go ahead, Marie.

It's marieforleo.com, it's the easiest place to go. Everything's right there. Tons of free articles and videos. Just a good time.

Okay, cool. M A R I E F O r l e o.com so you get the spelling of for Leo, right? And Yannick the Russian for me.

Spider man. Yeah, two spots internetlifestyle.com Singular, which is my blog. All sorts of stuff there about business life and so forth. Or of course Maverick business adventures.com or for the high level entrepreneurs on the list, it's maverick1000.com.

Awesome. And we will be doing another trip to Necker island next year and we'll probably. If you've not watched the interview that me, Jannek and Marie did with Richard Branson, you can go to ilovemarketing.com and watch that video interview. And if you are interested in the next follow up trips that we do, the Necker, they're all for a very large and not cheap, they're expensive trips because the island is expensive to rent and it's very, very private and very exclusive. And you spend lunch and dinner and most of the days with Sir Richard Branson and us personally. But if you're interested in doing one of those trips, me, Marie and Jannik obviously just recently got back from the Necker trip. You know, we'll have a place where on that page where you can click and can be put on the list if you are interested in that. But beyond that, Dean, I'd like to give the last words and the wrap up to you. And I just want to thank Marie and Jannik because you guys are awesome. So Dean, take it away.

Thank you, Yannick. You guys shared a lot of great stuff.

Wait, wait, wait, hold on.

Dean.

Dean, your phone is being like making all kinds of weird crackling noise. Yeah, it's like cutting out. Yeah, still. Marie, back me up here so Dean doesn't think I'm making this up.

Dean, you sound perfectly clear to me. No, I'm just kidding. No, you're totally. You are. It sounds robotic. We have digital Dean right now.

All right, well you should wrap up.

Well then I'll wrap up. Yeah. And I'd like everyone to post a comment that they don't like Dean for having this kind of a weird sound. What we'll do probably in the future is we may do individual episodes just with Marie, just with Jannik. But yeah, I will just say that please post the comments of what you thought of this interview and any of the different ways that you're going to use any of the strategies before, during and after techniques that Jannik and Marie talked about, because I'd love to share with them the feedback, feedback on what they got from it. And that's it. So, Marie, Yannick, any fame, any famous last words from you guys?

Now, just have a great time and thanks to both of you for having us on. Really appreciate it.

Yeah, definitely appreciate it. Thanks, guys.

Absolutely. Okay. Thanks everyone. And until next, next time, go out and, you know, have a kick ass, wonderful day and make someone laugh.

Goodbye.