The One With Mike Faith - I Love Marketing With Joe Polish And Dean Jackson - Episode #143

I'm dean jackson, he's joe polish, and this is the I love marketing podcast. Hey everybody, it's Dean Jackson and Joe Polish. And here we are. We have a very special guest, my friend Mike Faith, who is the founder of headsets.com Mike, can you hear us? Okay, we're all on the phone and I imagine you are on a headset since you founded headsets.com?

Yes. Hi, Joe. Hi, Dean. And I can hear you both fine. And thanks very, very much for having me on today. I'm very honored. Yes, yes.

And so happy to. I think that you just have a lot of incredible business insight. And so I just thought it would be a great idea to share what you know, what you've learned with all of our listeners. And if you've never heard of Mike faith or headsets.com, then let me just read a real quick bio. Mike, his company, he founded it. It's an Internet and catalog specialist retailer of telephone headsets. It was founded in 1997. He's a frequent speaker at direct marketing and business conferences. He also sits on the advisory of Retail Online Integration magazine and is chair of the Northern California chapter of the Young Presidents organization and the 2011 chair of the Business Direct Group, an invitation only group of C level executives of business to business direct marketing companies. Mike also founded Reserved Dinners, a charity organization. Mike started with two goals in mind. First, allowing the guests to meet and converse with achievers such as Sir Richard Branson, which is where I first was at that first dinner where I met Richard. I'll talk about that in a moment. FedEx CIO Rob Carter and many more. More of the world's greats. And second, his goal is to raise money for whatever charity the guests at Reserve dinners choose, with 100% of the funds raised going straight to a good cause. And so to give some background, me and Mike have a friend, Ben Altadana, who's in my 25k group. And Ben called me back in 2006 and said, you want to have dinner with Richard Branson? I'm like, well, what's the catch? And he said, well, my friend Mike Faith is organizing a dinner with Richard and it's a contribution to his foundation, Virgin Unite, and a minimum donation of 5,000. I said, sure, I'll give 15,000. I mean, I didn't even think about it for 30 seconds. And lo and behold, then I go to that dinner. That's where I first met you, Mike, and you put it all together. So had it not been for you, I never would have met Richard Branson. And now at the time we're doing this episode in 2014, I'm Richard Branson's largest fundraiser. And that all started from an introduction with you is the value of genius networking, certainly. And so I want to thank you for that and obviously thank you for all the great stuff that you do in your company. And so let's, you know, I guess that's my version of a red bio. So who is Mike Faith and what is headsets.com? let's start with that. And then me and Dean will hit you with some business questions as we go along.

Okay, that's great. Thank you, Joe. Thank you, Joe. What a fine introduction. You know, if I ever win an Oscar, will you come down and do the introduction for me? It just sounded so good.

Of course. Yeah. Yeah, I think I could probably pull that off.

And if I can just refer back to the dinner you came along to there where we met, and what a wonderful opportunity to meet some great people and relationships I built there and with you in particular, Joe. And you're right. It's always often about networking and just taking opportunities to meet new and different and influential people. And that's how we learn and grow a lot, both in life and in marketing, which is what I guess this is all about today. I don't know if there's much more about me. You've said it all there. I think that's great. Headsets.com is my company that I founded 16 years ago. We sell telephone headsets to the office market. We've got just over three quarters of a million companies in the US And Canada that have bought from us in the past 16 years. And we're the market leader in that category. And it's just a lot of headsets that we sell day in, day out, and people keep buying from us. As with most things in life, it's about being a great marketer and having great products that enables us to succeed.

And I will say, since a lot of our listeners are. Well, almost every one of our listeners are business owners, entrepreneurs, startups, a lot of people that are book authors, coaches, speakers, people that do webinars and teleseminars and stuff like that, if you ever need supplies, go to headsets.com and what I will say, even from just this week, I mean, earlier in the week, I ordered something from headsets.com. the customer service is phenomenal. The people that I talked with were very conscientious. I was like, wow. I said, I got to mention this. When we do this Episode that you've really set up your company and organization to be so customer service oriented and really wanting to wow your clients. And that's something that you're not going to get if you go to a big box store and the people are extraordinarily knowledgeable. So anyone that wants to do podcasts, wants to do recordings. You know, if you need just really awesome stuff, go to. Go to headsets.com and you know what I mean? I'll ask you about this later, about how you position some of your products and stuff that are headsets. So I'll make sure we do an embedded pitch for whatever headset you recommend here in just a little bit as we go along. But let me first ask. Subliminal ads. Right there.

Go ahead.

Right, right, right. I'm being very discreet about how I'm. Yeah, very discreet. I just want to pre warn everybody. Why'd you start headsets.com? i mean, how does one get into a business like that?

Sure, sure. Let me just say thank you for your order last week, Joe. I thought we had a good week and maybe that was it. Did you get the Tootsie right off?

Did I what?

Did you get the Tootsie Rolls?

No, I think. I think my. I think Eunice snagged them. All right.

I bet she had the Tootsie Rolls. We put Tootsie Rolls in every package. Just one of those little things we do. And if anyone listening doesn't want a headset and never wants a headset, but they'd want some Tootsie Rolls, just call up and say, hey, send me some Tootsie Rolls. We do that kind of crazy stuff, and we're the second biggest consumer of Tootsie Rolls in the world right now. We're hoping to be number one one day.

Wow. You know what? That alone, I mean, we could just break down the reasoning behind that as a smart way to differentiate yourself. So who came up with that idea and what have you found to be useful about doing that?

Sure. I mean, I wish I could say it was me. It wasn't. As with most of our best ideas, we steal them from someone else. And I heard someone else doing it, and I thought, that's good. We tried it and we started putting them in every box, and customers started calling up saying, this is great. Can you send me more? And then can I have this flavor and that flavor? And we thought, we're onto something. So we've been doing it for four or five years now. And now people call us up and just ask for Tootsie Rolls and customer or no customer, we send them and we just think it's great. It's kind of fun as well. People get a kick out of it. So sometimes it's the small yet maybe even silly things that have the big impact.

Completely, totally. I would agree. So, you know, were you always an entrepreneur? Did you ever work for anyone before you started your own company? I mean, you obviously know a bunch of Silicon Valley startups and I mean, you have a pretty, pretty big array of network of entrepreneurs and everyone that you hang out with and everything. So we always like hearing, you know, the origins of how someone became an entrepreneur. Were you born an entrepreneur or was this something you kind of developed and learned?

Yeah, yeah, good question, Joe. You know, I'm not sure if we're born or if we develop it or if it's either, but I know for me, I think I always had a kind of an inkling, a desire to be creative and perhaps a little bit of a. I'm going to call it love for money, which of course sounds terrible in some ways, but I'm okay with it. I mean, I like money and gadgets and things and everything that goes along with it. So I think that was probably always in me. I did a few different jobs from time to time. I usually was pretty successful out of the gate, but after three to six months would kind of get bored and fizzle and kind of really knew from the age of probably mid-20s that I had to be doing my own thing. And, you know, the 12, 18 hour days or whatever it is that might work sometimes were fine if I was doing it for myself. So I think it was just a kind of natural progression.

Yeah. So Dean, what are your thoughts on. What are your thoughts on this?

On this?

I think that the love of money is kind of a good reason to do a lot of things. You know, I like calling them fun tickets. I mean, you know, there's all kinds of ways to say that's the truth. It's like when you get right down to it, having fun tickets is better than not having them, you know, in a lot of people you might as well make money.

Yeah, but here's a thought. I mean, I don't think most entrepreneurs, if you average out, it's like pop stars, you read about the ones that do well. But most of us are poor for most of our lives and I spent most of my entrepreneurial career not making money and going through all the stuff where you can't make payroll and you're borrowing on the Credit cards to do all sorts of things that. To keep the business going. So I had my stretches doing that, and I think that's pretty common. Entrepreneurs, I think overall it's a lowly paid profession because so few people actually make a lot of money. But those are the ones we get to hear and read about and listen to.

Yeah, no, you're right. And I don't even know what the exact stats are on this now. I mean, I know there's a Kauffman study that was done years ago where the average something like 94, 96% of entrepreneurs never make more than $50,000 a year. And something like one out of four ever make more than 100 grand a year. The reality is there's a boatload of people that are working their asses off from their drive, their ambitions, and just really don't ever make a lot. But it's the ones that you hear that do, which maybe that fuels the dreams for other people or whatever. But what are your thoughts on why some people are successful and others aren't? I mean, you certainly have your own. Your own ways of how you've done what you've done. But what are some of your business philosophies on success and failure?

Yeah, you know what I think? I think it's. I love. There's no right combination. I mean, you know, you think it's this and that and then you meet someone and it's something completely different that knocks you off your feet. And I think with entrepreneurs, I mean, some entrepreneurs are very disciplined, some are very creative, some are wild and crazy. And I don't know if there is a specific formula that works. If there was a common theme, I'd say generally you got the ability to take risk, but also some of the best entrepreneurs can mitigate risk really well. And I think as they get better at it, they're actually not taking risks at all. They took risks to get there, and now they're covering their bets and covering their risks so well that they're probably doing the very opposite of what got them started, and that's what's helping them to keep accumulating. So are there other factors? Probably. But I'm an extrovert. I know some entrepreneurs that are introverts. I think it can be all over the show.

So you're saying you're really an extrovert. I mean, I've seen you wear blonde wigs and stuff. At the Branson gathering. We were at that time. You do some pretty crazy shit. So what are some of the Outlandish things that you do and have done in your risk taking entrepreneurial ventures. Wow. Gosh.

Let's have a thing. We've only got an hour. This could go on. Apart from wearing blonde wigs to parties with with Joe Polish. Let's have a think. Last year we, we, we bought someone's last name. There was a guy called Jason Sadler offering to change his last name for a year to the highest bidder. And he was getting a lot of publicity about what he was doing. So we thought, all right, let's do it. So we were the high bidder at $45,500. Jason Sadler became jasonheadsets.com for a year. And we had a huge. I know, it's wild. We had a huge amount of publicity on that. We were on every major news channel. We were in most of the papers. And it went on for a while. But here's the best part of the story. I was in New York the Wednesday before this happened. It was happening on the Wednesday night. And my vice president of marketing, Matt Bruniford called and said, mike, this guy's changing his last name. It's going to be around $40,000. Can we go for it? And you know, one of the things that after a while in business you learn you don't always want to be the no guy. So I'm like, interesting. Sells a great idea. Go and talk to our CFO Rick Mills, thinking Rick's gonna say no. And Matt said it was Rick's idea. He came to me with it.

So we're on.

I was kind of quartered, which serves me right. So I was against doing it, but it just shows what I know. We took a chance. It was huge.

So, you know, how does one officially change their name for a year? Do they, I mean, like legally or is this what he referred to himself as or what?

No, no, this was legally. Went to the courthouse. They had to approve it. And then he tells the story. If you look at his blogs about how he did it, he's a great guest. You should have him on sometime. He's an interesting guy. And he was officially that. He sent us a copy of his driver's license and he had a bunch of stories about, you know, he'd be somewhere and they'd restaurant Mr. Headsets dot com. And it's just kind of funny. So one, it was very profitable for us, but to. It was just funny and you got fun in business. I think that's part of the, part of the requirement for me.

How much money would me and Dean have to pay you to change your name to Mike instead of Mike Faith, which is a really spiritual sounding name. Of course. Mike. Ilove marketing.com. i mean, what, what are we talking dollar figure wise?

That is creative and I like that. So yeah, yeah, yeah, let's do it in principle.

We'll work out the detail after this episode. You know what? That's so funny. Dean, we honestly should go. We should just go to Fiverr and see if we can find people that would do it for five bucks and see if we get an army or whatever. Yeah, but I mean, what if someone like that Mike does something that's really publicly humiliating? I mean, how do you protect yourself from that? I guess you don't, right? You have to just really make sure you like the guy.

Yeah, I think so. I mean, I think you take a chance and, you know, we could see some personal equity and some things and he was craz, but not. Not bad. Crazy. But there again, I'm a big subscriber to the, you know, providing people are talking about you, it's good. It's when people aren't talking about you that you should be worried. And was it Eleanor Roosevelt or. I can't remember who said that, but you know, I'd rather. I think I'd rather have people talking about us, whether good or bad, than not knowing about us. And that's to some extent what marketing is about, is having people talk about us.

Yeah, no, you're right. You're right. So, Dean, do you have any questions? Because I got a whole slew for Mike. I think that's fantastic. Keep going. Let's keep going. Okay, so why do you love marketing? I mean, obviously we're big. We're on ilove marketing.com, so we're big fans of marketing. Mean, Dean. Live, eat and breathe it all day long and do our best to help other people with it. And you know, you're clearly a marketer and you, you know, you. You've done some very, you know, smart things to build your company. So why is it important? You know, what do you think? Why do you love it or do you love it? I don't even know if you love marketing. Maybe it's just something you do.

Oh, I do love it. I mean, it's a passion. It's wonderful. It's sex almost, isn't it? Why do I love it? I think because you test. There's risk, there's failure. You find something that works and then you do more of it and more of it and more of it.

And more of it.

And it's kind of like the leverage is so big and huge that when you find something that works, you just keep doing more and better and pushing it out and push the limits, perhaps. I don't know. Is it a power thing? I don't know. I'd probably have to sit with a psychologist for an hour.

There's a lesson in that. Mike said, you know, there's a lesson in that, because a lot of people, they figure something out and they test something and it works. And you said, then you keep doing it and doing it and doing it, doing more of it. But a lot of people, they test something and then it worked, and then they don't do anything with what they've figured out.

Yeah, you know, exactly.

You've picked a very specific target market with headsets dot com. I mean, it's crystal clear. And, you know, you've driven that one. You've ridden that one horse all the way.

Yeah, well, that's exactly it. And I think I'm a big fan of it. You know, it reminds me, a few years ago, I went to do a presentation to a manufacturer, and they'd given us marketing money for a year, and sums were getting pretty big. And they said, you know, we want to come down and see what you're going to do next year. So I went down and did the presentation of what we'd done. You know, it was about eight slides and talk. I said, now can we move on to what we're going to do? And they said, great. And they were all ready, and the screen came up and it said, more of the same. I said, that's it, guys. Exactly the same. But we're going to do a lot more. How much do you want to do? And it was kind of, I think, you know, in corporations, people wanted a new plan and something different, but what we were doing worked. And when you find what works, more of the same is a great strategy.

That's awesome. How did you start headsets.com? i mean, did you. Did you. Were you able to register the domain name for $10 or whatever it was to register a domain name? Or did you end up. Did you have to buy the domain name? I imagine it's worth just the name. It's worth a lot of money right now.

Yeah, Yeah, I wish. I wish. I wish I'd have been smart enough and quick enough to have got it for $10, but I'm often not. So we. We bought it from a competitor. We didn't have the money to buy it. At the time. So we did a lease to own, which went up over a 10 year period, which enabled us to try and reap the benefits before we were paying for it. And I think it's one of the best things we did. I mean, if you look at domains like that now, I mean it's hard to value it, but it's probably worth several million. But if you think of it as a million dollars, that's, you know, if you look at that and in terms of interest, what it costs you at maybe 5%, that's 50 grand a year, that's a GR a week, that's 200 bucks a day, that's what, 10 bucks an hour to own the best domain in your industry that you get lots of traffic from and recognition from. So, you know, I think having the right domain is a really, really valuable thing.

I agree with that. Now you mentioned something early on. Well, wait, actually two things I'll go to this one, you said, you know, maybe I have to sit on the couch and talk to a psychiatrist to figure that out. And then Dean just kind of jumped in. But I was thinking you might have been revealing something very dysfunctional about yourself or something that would require some deep introspection as to what's going on. So if you can remember what you're going to say, we come back to that.

Yeah, well, I think all entrepreneurs are dysfunctional, aren't they Joe?

Yeah, I would probably say that's more true than like anything else.

That's the common factor. We're dysfunctional.

Again, I have to figure out the title of this book, but there was some book where someone did study of DNA in Europe and America and I'm probably saying this completely wrong because I haven't read the book and I can't even remember what the title is, but basically where the people that are very entrepreneurial in America, psychologically they have more anxiety, depression, addiction and stuff than in parts of Europe. I'm no scientist here and I have to preface this with saying I'm not exactly sure anything I'm saying is even remotely accurate. I've just been restating what I've heard about the book that I haven't read is that in America the reason we're incredibly entrepreneurial is because the risk taking makeup of the brains of people in America. I mean you're talking about people that founded country that got in little boats and were willing to risk their life for venturing into something new. So when people jokingly say entrepreneurs are a little crazy. Well yeah, they are. They're willing to take risks. They're willing to do things that people that they don't pursue security. Some want it, some crave it, but that's not their primary thing because if it was, they sure as hell would never start a business. But I actually like the crazy ones. Those are the people that excite me. Those are the ones that change the world. Those are the ones that take, you know, take the mundane, the things that aren't working and they innovate and they, you know, because of those people, crazy or not, they're the ones that make the world a better place. They're the ones that provide the jobs. They're the ones that create the value. So I have a. I have an enormous respect for these crazy bastards.

Yeah, yeah, absolutely. Thank you. Hallelujah. I agree.

So let's talk about another story. Can you talk about some of the strategies you used to get word of mouth? Like you have the story of David Cameron or the giveaway you did for people who got tickets for using their cell phones without a headset? Talk about that stuff because I think it'll be useful for our listeners to hear.

Sure, sure. Gosh, you guys have done your research and dug a lot to find some of this. Thank you. Some of these go back a few years. So let's start with David Cameron. So I sent David Cameron, he was the current British Prime Minister, and I sent him an iPad the day he got into office, just as a gift. And congratulations. He sent a note back. I'm big on sending out kind of gifts generally to people. I have a pretty extensive list. Some people I know, some people I don't. I send out birthday and holiday gifts and I get a lot of payback on that in many, many ways. But David Cameron sends me a note, thanks me for the iPad. And then a few months later there's a declaration of politicians have to make of any gifts they get. So he declares he gets the iPad from me. And he had two. He had one later from Michael Bloomberg, which he returned. So there's a. In all the British newspapers, there's pictures of David Cameron using his iPad and saying. Listing all the gifts he got and saying he returned the one from Michael Bloomberg but kept the one from me. Just kind of like, you can't buy publicity and fun and the kind of relationships you get from that. You can't buy that for money. And so it's one of those things. It was kind of accidental. It was a genuine gift, like congratulations on winning the election. And it turned out to be a Huge publicity kind of windfall for me. Yeah.

And I mean, you do stuff like that. I mean, you. I think a lot of people underestimate just even sending letters, sending thank you notes, let alone sending things that are, you know, we refer to in the marketing world as like, you know, theater shock and awe packages. I mean, sometimes they result in nothing. But if you continually are doing things like that, you will get big hits. You will impact people. And I think that's one of your, you know, I think you want to impact people. Yeah, yeah.

Well, I send a gift out every year, so last year I sent giant ice cube trays which were really big here. Did you get one, Joe?

You know, I did get one. I think you. You forgot about me last year or something.

No, no, I must have an old address. Let's check afterwards. You're on my list, I promise.

No, I mean, I get stuff from you every once in a while, so it's like. But I don't recall an ice cube tray. You know, again, there. There is the possibility, since I didn't even get. But the Tootsie Roll, since the headset that I ordered was actually on my desk set up for me by, you know, one of my team members.

The.

Fact that they didn't even tell me that. Which has a lot to be said about him and all your mail. Yeah, yeah. But a giant ice cube tray, I don't know how on earth I would miss that one. That paper bag full of hundred dollar bills that I sent you a couple of weeks ago. Yeah, I wish. I wish. So what else do you do? What else do you have you done, Mike? What else do you do to get word of mouth?

Well, let me just finish one more on this because you'll enjoy this. And stop me if I'm talking too much. I'm kind of enjoying myself now. I'm in full swing. But one of the great things about sending kind of a gift out every year or people's birthday and doing it on mass is the letters you get back. So it's kind of funny when I get a letter from. You know, I've had letters from most of the presidents because I always keep them on the list and that. And you get a letter back saying, the president wishes to thank you for your gift of the giant ice cube tray, which is kind of like you can tell someone's processing all these letters. But it's kind of funny when you get the letter back and you get a collection of them, which is kind of nice. So it's part of the Fun as well as the marketing reach.

Have you ever read the book Letters from a Nut? No.

You think I should write it or be in it?

No, both, actually. This guy would just send these insane. I mean, Jerry Seinfeld actually wrote the intros. I mean, these books were written years ago ago. Oh, that Nancy. Yeah, he had a fake name. What? Nancy something or other, Ted. Nancy, I think. Yeah. And this guy would like, literally write these insane letters to hotels and different companies just to get the replies back, the professional form letters. And then he would reproduce these letters in a book and what these companies would send back. And it is so hysterical. I'm sure you can still buy these books but love it.

Yeah. Well, maybe, maybe here's an idea we can use. All right. And our listeners here can use. What about, I mean, if you send a gift to. I think, I'm not sure if it's a senator or I don't know which politicians, but you send a gift to pod. Most politicians have got rules where if it's over like a hundred dollars or two hundred dollars, they have to officially declare it. So you send gifts of maybe $200 value to every, every politician, every member of Congress, every senator.

And.

But before you do that, you change your name to like joe ilovemarketing.com so when they declare it, they got the gift from Joe ilovemarketing.com There's probably a web link value worth tens of thousands of that because it's going to be published on websites and everything. This could be a. I'm making this up as I go along, but we could be onto something here, guys.

Well, on it, you get a page rank 7 page to link to. Yeah, that's so funny. You know, we literally got it. We got to do something with it. So to all of our listeners that are hearing this, whatever ideas that you're coming up with just from hearing Mike think off the top of his head as it relates to this. And of course, we prefer the Last name being ilovemarketing.com Post your comments and ideas@ilovemarketing.com underneath this episode. That would be absolutely fantastic. No, I like it.

The only addition I've got TO that is headsets.com would be an even better name.

Right, Right. Because it flows off the tongue. It's shorter. The only hole you can punch in the whole plan. Right. When you're introducing yourself to say, like a new girlfriend's parents or something and say your name's joeheadsets.com or joeilovemarketing.com I think the headset sounds maybe from public perception a little more trustworthy. You? Never. But it's a good point. So how did you position the world's most comfortable headset, which is the Deskmate, which is one of your products? And by the way, I'm secretly not saying anything about a product that you happen to sell right now. I'm just simply asking a question. You're right.

Keep subliminal. I like it. In that case, it makes it difficult for me to say that actually this Deskmate is the world's most comfortable headset. So I won't say that. We'll stay with the subliminal. We tried it, we made some amendments to the leather ear cushion, and we thought comfort's a big issue for people. So we thought, let's just make the world's most comfortable headset. And we tested a number of different versions. We blind tested them on people to find out what they liked. And we kept doing this and doing this until we got the one that consistently people said that's the most comfortable and that's the Desk mate. And we introduced it last year.

Year.

It's our second best selling headset already. The market potential for it is huge. We're just scratching the surface of it. But yeah, I think it is a great position because instantly it's like, well, I want a comfortable headset, so why not get the world's most comfortable?

Right? Well, so by obviously stating something to be the world's most comfortable, then of course, I guess. Have you ever been challenged on that clinic?

Not yet.

You haven't gone like, you haven't literally gotten a physical fight with someone else that said, no, we've got the world's Great. Like a headset death match or something?

No, no, I'll be happy to take it on if it comes. We could do the Pepsi Challenge or whatever.

Right. Well, let me ask you. So for our listeners, I mean, literally a technical question related to headsets. So we got a lot of people like me and Dean, you know, we do, I love marketing episodes all the time. We record into mics, we travel, we're on the road. We have different sort of recording devices. Sometimes like in this particular case, we're just talking over the phone. Other times we'll be in person sometimes on Skype. So I mean, this is a way that most people communicate all the time. So the mechanism where you work, you know, virtually and where you're communicating with people using your voice on video, you know, on the phone, whatever, you know, how does someone choose to do that. Because I think there's a lot of people that listen, that spend several hours a day engaged in conversations that could probably buy stuff from you that would. They're not aware exist.

Yeah. Yeah. Well, I always recommend at least two headsets per person, So why wouldn't I? So, so what.

What's some cool stuff that. That you can do with, like, what you've discovered with headsets and communication? Like, so someone wants to record a podcast and start their own podcast. They want to do it via Skype or they want to do it over the phone. What. What the heck should they buy? Should they buy the. The destination or is there other stuff?

Yeah, if they were doing a podcast, I'd probably say the Destiny. You know, each situation varies, so I don't want to say this headset is the right one for a circumstance. And this, you know, I could ask a bunch of questions to understand exactly what. But the destination would probably be a great one for that. My favorite headset of all time is the Office Runner. I'm using one now. I'm walking around the office while I'm talking because I like to walk. And I get a few extra thousand paces in each day because I'm walking and talking, which is a good calorie. And I just find them better when I'm able to walk and kind of express myself better rather than sitting at a desk. So I like a wireless headset that I can walk around the office with. But people have got different needs, and depending on their needs, you know, we've got hundreds of headsets. And, you know, there's always a unique reason why sometimes someone wants something else.

Yeah. So which is the one you're wearing right now?

Is this the subliminal part still?

Yes, this is the Office Runner. Office Runner. Okay, cool. Yeah. All right.

Still talking.

Yes. I mean, are you one of those annoying people when you're, like, out and about? You wear a Bluetooth headset on your. Your head, on your. All the time on your mobile phone?

No. Funnily enough, I don't like Bluetooth headsets and I rarely use one on a mobile phone. I don't like using a mobile ph for calls anyway, so I'm a texter, and this is coming from a headset guy.

But.

Bluetooth headsets and mobile phones, the quality is never quite what I'd like it to be. So it's just not really for me. So, thankfully, I'm not one of those annoying people.

And I'm talking about people that, like, they never take it off. I mean, they look like Robocop or something when they're walking around. When Google glasses front of you. Yeah.

You're in Starbucks and the guy in front of you has got a headset on and is he talking to someone, is he not?

It's kind of annoying. Yeah, yeah, exactly. Alright, so let's talk about business and money making stuff. So what are two or three of your best business and money making lessons that you've learned? Running your company, Building your company. Wow.

Okay. Two or three of the best ones, I think. I think most things, I mean, do you mean from a marketing perspective or business generally in terms of hiring and people or any.

You know what? It could be either. We can start with marketing. We can, yeah, yeah. I mean anything that you think would be useful for entrepreneurs that are, you know, wanting to just become more successful and have their companies work. Did you bootstrap Mike or were you venture funding?

We started with $40,000 and then after about three years we were, we got to about 3 million a year in revenues. But we were struggling a bit there to make money and I realized we needed more scale to do it. So I raised $625,000. I did a little a round. I just went around knocking doors and raised that amount and that was our only funding apart from that. So I think one of the ways in which we grew initially and this is something that hopefully some people can take away is we managed to do a deal where we paid a manufacturer. Later we got a 60 and then 90 day terms, but when people ordered, we got a credit card and banked it. So our cash flow was really strong initially and although it wasn't really profitable for the first couple of years, we had really strong cash flow and that helped. That helps a lot. And I think if you can figure a way to make your finances work so your cash flow works. And usually there's ways of doing it with doing deals with some of your suppliers that really takes the pressure off and gives you the funds you need to do great marketing and grow the business?

Yeah, no, that's cool. So what did you do along the way that that really you felt was the smartest and most strategic decisions for your company? Was it hiring someone? Was it setting up a certain type of system? Was it just a very effective marketing campaign? Was it learning about money and margins? What was it?

Yeah, if I look back at some of the key milestones, I think think raising that money was at the right time. But I didn't weigh myself down with venture capital. So I still have control of the company. I think getting the domain name was really big for us. It really put us on the map and gave us credibility with manufacturers as well as a great Google ranking. I think learning to hire the right people as something I kind of got an acquired taste for over the years, it didn't come naturally to me, me and that's been really big for us and we got a lot of people that have been around for years and years now and they know everything that goes on in the company and that really makes a difference. And I think keeping a kind of good clean reputation out there with, with, with your suppliers and you know, and negotiating for good deals is great, but not negotiating for the last buck so you kill your suppliers and they lose.

Value in the deal.

I think that's been important to us. And then developing our own products in conjunction with some of the manufacturers so that we're not playing the who can sell it for the lowest price on Amazon game. And we sell our products on Amazon but we sell them at the same price. So we're not, you know, competing with ourselves but having those proprietary products that we've got a long term equity in the brand because the Office Runner and the Desk Mate are our names. I think that really has a big impact for us. Learning to relax a bit and sleep at night rather than work the 12, 18 hour days that I used to do initially and I'm sure Joe, you can relate to that. And nowadays I can usually do eight or 10 hours and go and sleep is good. Well, let me stop you on that.

For just a minute because I think that's actually really important. I mean right now I'm helping Arianna Huffington with her new book called Thrive is about to be out. And you know, one of her main emphasis is on sleep because in 2007 she actually collapsed from, you know, overwork, exhaustion and broke her cheekbone on the edge of a desk. And it really made her evaluate her life. And you know, how this emphasis on power and money, which is what most, you know, people pursue and think of as success. It's, you know, what about your health, what about your relationships? What about sleep? And so Ariana is like just a huge proponent of sleeping. And you know, she spoke at my conference, my Genius Network event annual event. She's going to be speaking at my event this year. So she's a big sleep person. So when someone brings that up, you know, a lot of times we'll skip over it. But I think we are the most sleep deprived, you know, group as entrepreneurs because in the pursuit of the success. I mean, there's a grind, you know, I mean, especially in the beginning where, you know, you just. You don't know what the hell you're doing, and you make it up and then you make it real. As our friend Dan Sullivan, how did you learn to sleep? How do you disconnect? How do you relax so you can come at things from a much more focused place?

Yeah, bourbon is really good for it, isn't it?

What's that?

Bourbon.

All right.

That wasn't the answer you wanted, was it? I think it's something I just learned to do as I've got older. And I probably get eight hours most nights now, and sometimes I'll do nine, sometimes it's four or five. Of course, just because the pressures and you're on the go and that's it. But I'd say I probably average eight. And I don't know how. I just. I'm pretty relaxed. I mean, a lot of the issues that come up in your business aren't new ones, and it's happened before and issues that you used to throw over, like, yep, here we go again. We'll deal with it. I don't know if there's a recipe. If there was, I would have taken it years ago, But I think for me, it's just been kind of getting older. That's not a good idea. Stay young and stay up all night. It's much more fun.

But. I don't want to gloss over this because I think it's incredibly useful. And it's hard for some entrepreneurs to understand quite what they do and how they do it. But you mentioned it where things that used to bother you don't bother you as much anymore. I'll tell people all the time that I think a lot of success as an entrepreneur, if you're growing, because some people are, you know, treadmill entrepreneurs, they just do it forever and they never get anywhere. And other people are ladder entrepreneurs. They keep growing, they keep succeeding, they keep multiplying themselves. And I think a lot of it has to do with your ability to tolerate or handle or transform shit. I mean, you know, business, I don't think you wake up one day and there's not this constant treadmill of new things. And, you know, I mean, there's always stuff to attend to if you want to. There's always details that you can get m in. There's always a bazillion opportunities and options. And so I think, you know, over the years, just being able to handle things that in the Beginning would have, you know, totally taken you down psychologically or like, ah, you know, I've dealt with this before, so I think building a tolerance is incredible. And some people are good at it and other people, they, they don't, they. They're not. And so do you have any thoughts on how, how did you develop the ability to, to not turn everything into a drama queen situation?

Yeah, yeah, great question. And again, I think some of it comes with maturity, but some of it comes with, sorry, maturity. That sounds so condescending, doesn't it? Getting old. Some of it, as you get old.

You get better at.

And some of it comes with, you know, perhaps just learning and realizing that you need to be a leader. And, you know, as you start doing that in front of people, I think, you know, it becomes part of your psychology that you need to think, hey, how do I act on this? Rather than how do I react? And there's maybe a couple of things that have practical things that have helped me. One is I've got an incredible pa, just like I know you have, Joe. And that takes a lot of weight off me of doing the things that I'm either not so good at or are just time consuming. I need help with. And I recommend that to anyone as soon as you can. I mean, get a PA that just takes everything onto you. And my PA actually manages me and, you know, knows my schedule and what I'm doing and where I'm going and make sure everything's ready much better than I do. My first pa I originally took on to drive me because I had a quite a commute to work, but I realized, you'll love this, realized it was more efficient for me to do the driving and him to sit there with the computer and do the typing. And I talked to him because he could type faster than me. So I became kind of his driver as our job. Even though if I go somewhere in the car, which isn't very often, I'm going more than a few minutes, a PA comes with me. I drive because it's so much more efficient. My pa's ability to type quicker than me is far better than my ability to drive faster than them, so that the payoff is better. And then the second thing though is like, you jot big into networking and people, and I'm in lots of groups like the Entrepreneurs Organization and what. And I found over time having that peer group that you can talk to about your opportunities and your problems and your wins has been a big relaxer for me. And it's really important for people to have groups of peers that they can network with and talk with and share their problems with. Because I think you realize, hey, I'm not that abnormal. The problems I'm getting are the same kind of problems that other people are getting as well. And if nothing else, there's. What's the phrase? This misery and company or something like that.

But yeah, misery, love company.

Yeah, that's it.

No, no, I think you're making a really important point which I'll ask you about your reserved dinners in just a minute. You know, because like Dean has these things that he does called breakthrough blueprints where people gather and you know, they spend three days with Dean just. And peers just talking and strategizing and working things through. And then of course I have my 25k group, which is my genius network and we bring people together and you know, I don't know anyone that is a high performer in any area. I mean you can always point to sports. I mean that's obvious that the world class athletes always have coaches. You know, world class everything always has assistance. I mean people that are lone rangers are very lonely because there's plenty of times you're just going to be alone being an entrepreneur. Entrepreneur. Because most of the world is not entrepreneurs. I think the makeup in America is like 1 out of 20 have the psychological makeup of what makes someone have the risk taking and become an entrepreneur. So the vast majority of humans are not those people. So going out and finding those people and organizing those and being proactive about it is incredibly important, especially for people that are like introverted. I mean you mentioned you're an extrovert. So I think bringing those things together, I mean I know that we have a lot of entrepreneurs in other parts of the world that listen to. I love marketing. I mean we have over 50 something meetup groups where every day there's probably 100 people meeting somewhere talking about what me and Dean talk about and share on our podcast here. We think that's incredibly cool because it started these communities and I mean you've been doing stuff like this for many, many years. So talk about what are the reserve dinners that you do with like where I originally met Richard Branson and all these other high level people that you bring to them. And I mean if you're, how do people go to them whenever you do them? How does someone get on that list?

Yeah, yeah, well, I mean I started that. That was my first dinner, the Richard Branson one. And it was so much fun that I thought, hey, I need to do Some more of these. What a great way to network and do some good and raise some money and meet fun people. But anyone that asks, I'll send out invites to. So I have a website for it and people come in through there. But a lot of it's people I know and you know, you've been Joe, so I always invite you. And it's just become a kind of ground up kind of thing. And you know, people tell a friend and they want to come along. So I think just growing in that way.

Way. Yeah, I mean, I think, I think just the understanding that. And I don't think most people think like this. It's hard for me to even kind of formulate what I'm, what I'm saying because I so get it where I don't want to learn through the school of hard knocks. I mean, there are people out there that have figured stuff out, that have spent hundreds if not thousands of hours learning, developing, building something that you can spend 10 minutes with. And you might hear one thing or one insight that just shifts everything about how you run your company, about how you live your life. And I pursue those people on a regular basis. I mean, it's one of the reasons being dean, you know, do our podcast and we're interviewing, you know, like you, as an example. We just want to hear how other people do it. But a lot of people, I don't think that comes natural to them to say, hey, you know, I'm going to go to a dinner and invest money to, you know, to a charity or I'm going to, you know, join PO or YPO or whatever or Strategic Coach or, you know, any of our, any of our stuff. I mean, I don't think that's a natural thought process for, for most people. And, you know, we're always trying to share from our perspective how it's been so valuable to us and why people. You know, when you get out of school, then the real education starts, which is you setting up your own educational system for yourself. And everyone has the ability to either go into an already existing one or to start their own. So talk about the real byproducts that come out of reserve dinners and come out of the ways that you educate yourself for your own personal and business development.

Yeah, sure. And let me just add to that. I think perhaps that's another key. I think you've got to be investing in yourself somewhere. You've got to be investing in your relationships and your network and your education. And if you don't do that in some way, I think you end up falling behind and missing out and not developing and growing as a person, which is really important. And on reserved dinners, I've made a lot of friends from doing it. And you're one, of course. Joe and Richard Branson, of course, is another. And we did a dinner last year for Annie Duke. You know, Annie Duke, the poker player? And I mean, no. Was it just fun and great? But I developed a relationship with her, and some of the people there were just terrific. And people make connections. Actually, the world memory champion, Chester Santos, was there, and a lot of people made connections with him and including me. And I spend time with him now, and he's taught me a lot of memory techniques to remember a lot of useless stuff that's fun at parties but entertaining for everyone. So, yeah, these are some of the things you get from it. I mean, you can never know when you go into these things exactly what.

You'Re going to get.

I think you've got to trust when you go network and trust the process that you join a group or a club or you network with people. And you know that if you're generous and if you give and you guys know about this, if you give, you're going to get back. And I think that's one of the keys to it. Yeah, totally.

Totally, Dean. I mean, I've been. I've been kind of dominating this conversation here, so why don't you hit me in my mike with some funny stuff? Well, I think it would be cool to talk a little bit about, you know, you said when you were raising the money and you showed people, here's what we did, here's what we did, and then you want to see the exciting stuff we got coming up. And it's more of the same. I think it would be very valuable to hear some of the.

What you think would be some of.

The key strategies that took you from 40,000, your initial investment, to doing $3 million, that first phase, a lot of people are getting in that. I mean, did you pick one winning strategy and go all the way with it, or did you try all kinds of different things? What was, do you think, the driver of that?

Sure, sure, we tried a bunch of different things, Dean, but ultimately we found direct mail was really good. And I tend to be a. Find the one thing that works and beat the hell out of it. I'm not really as strong as the. You've got to do lots of different types of marketing, as many people are. And I'm not saying that's right or wrong. It's Just so I find it easier. Let's try 10 things. When you find one that works, you jump on that horse and you go as fast as you can until it stops. Direct mail has always been a really big channel for us to generate new business and get people to come and find us for the first time. Once they do, of course, you hope they keep coming back.

You do the right job, you do.

The great customer service, you give them all the love you can, and they feel it, and they tell them friends. So that's actually a bigger channel for us now. The direct mail brings in new customers, but our repeat business and referral business is actually a larger part of our business now because, you know, we wow them in the first place. And by doing that, they remember us when they want more.

Right.

I think that's so valuable that people.

Think marketing is the, you know, the fun part. And they keep cracking these marketing codes and then never really capitalize on them. And. And really, the. The value of marketing is not so much about being a good marketer and figuring out the strategy that works, but it's being able to take that now and go all the way, which really has nothing to do necessarily about marketing. It's about executing now and taking that all the way. Yeah.

And, you know, people, I think you're right. People think marketing is fun, and it is, but it's hard work. I mean, you got, you know, people think you sit around, you come up with an idea, and isn't it great? And no, it's about a lot of hard work, but the best marketing. And I think this is a marketing program. I love marketing. I want to say your best marketing is loving your customers every day and making sure everyone loves that, because you can't beat having customers that think you're terrific. And if you show them the love genuinely, then they'll come back and they'll keep telling other people, and it's kind of almost free to do it.

Mm. You know, No, I mean, I think first off, this fact, you even said direct mail, I think, is great because we've been doing a series of episodes, and, you know, we've interviewed some of the top Internet social media, you know, marketing experts. I mean, the top in the world for I love marketing. And me and Dean are always pretty reaching. It's not about technology. It's about psychology and the methods of how you reach people. I mean, we recently did an interview with Richard Vigory, who invented conservative direct mail, and he was talking about, even with the Internet, 90% of people in fundraising that are the top fundraisers in the world. There's a million nonprofits, but he's like the biggest ones. 90% of their revenue comes from direct mail, not from the Internet. And, you know, your whole point of finding a channel that works and just. Just doing it. I mean, you know, I've always loved the saying, the time to quit going back to the well is when you put the bucket down and it doesn't come out with any more water. But as long as you're getting water, you know, I mean, keep sticking the bucket down there. And it sounds like that's what you do. I mean, you find something and you really ride that horse till it stops, like you said. Yeah, yeah. I like the well analogy.

I'm going to steal that one if I.

Feel free. So let's see, what was I going to ask you about? Oh, you know, you said something early on, which I want to bring back. I wrote it down really early on. You said about. What the heck was his name? The heads. Jason. Headsets.com guy.

Yeah, Jason Headsets come.

Right. I don't want to say his real name. Where you didn't want to be that. You know, you don't want to be the no guy. And you just said it really quick. You don't want to be the no guy. And you know, there's a challenge when you get to a point where there are way more people in opportunities knocking at your door, asking for your time and your attention than you physically got the bandwidth to deal with. Even if you.

Yes.

Have a lot of people you delegated to, and at the same time, you never get anything. Nothing happens if you're always saying, you know, no, no, no, no, no to everything because you can block yourself from opportunity. So it's a very. It's a tightrope where you, you know, if you say yes to everything, you're completely screwed because you just. There's not enough time or hours in the day to even handle, you know, 95% of the shit that is available. Great opportunities, but. So how do you. How do you know what to say no to? How do you know what to say yes to? What?

You.

How. How do you. You use discretion in your decision making?

Yeah, it's a great question. I think you're right. I mean, the opportunities start to pile up after a while and you don't know which ones are and which ones aren't. Of course.

Yeah.

I think on the one hand, some of it's just good decision making and you get better at it over time. The More you do. But the other thing, you know, I was taught by my. One of my early mentors back in the uk, many years ago, he said to me, and just in case he's listening, his name is Stuart White. I should give him the credit on this. And he said, mike, be ruthless with your time and be gracious with people. And I think he's right. So I always try and be polite and smile and say thank you.

But.

Realize that my time is really valuable. But don't be an ass about it. I can still be nice to people. And I think it's a hard line to follow, but it's the right line. And over time, it's possible to get really good at.

And I'm writing that down. I mean, that's a really. That's a really good piece of advice. Be ruthless with your time, but gracious with people. Yeah, and I tend to be the same way. I mean, I never want to be that asshole guy that's shooting people down. And what I don't like are people that have situational sort of behavior where, you know, when they're in a business meeting and they're with someone that they're kissing ass to, that they try to put on their best behavior, then they're incredibly rude to waiters and waitresses, or they don't. They don't hold doors open for people. I mean, those people are, you know, I mean, it's just. You're either a courteous human being all the time or you're. You're a fraud. Exactly. Yep.

Exactly. And that's always a good test, isn't it? When you get. When you go to lunch or you go on a date and you see how someone treats the waiter or the waitress, it's sometimes a good indicator of who they are.

No, absolutely. I mean, I think it's critical, and I like seeing people operate in those things, because there are certain people that you know and you. We all learn this if you hire enough employees. I mean, do you. Do you know, Mike, how many employees that you have now taken? The ones you have now and the ones. I mean, how many employees do you think you've had in your organization since you've been an entrepreneur? Wow. Wow.

Yeah. You know, usually I'm pretty good at guessing approximately this one. I don't know how good I'm going to be, but I'd say. Several hundred.

Yeah, several hundred. So, like, you know, one of the things that you have to, you know, you learn in a lot of this, you can read about it, you can have people tell you about it, but you don't really get it until you go through it. And you'll learn from hiring in the beginning that someone could put on. They give great interview and then you hire them and you're like, wow. I mean, that was completely not the person that I interviewed in terms of their behavior and how they show up. And there's other people that they may not do a great interview, but you find these to be incredibly resourceful and committed and smart and loyal and high integrity individuals. And you have to be willing to get basically kicked in the nuts a lot in the beginning sometimes, and it'll happen throughout to really even get a vibe for it. Your whole comment about hiring a pa, the sooner you're never going to leverage yourself if you don't do things like that. The sooner that you do it, the quicker you're going to learn. And hopefully you make a great hire in the beginning and you don't have to go through a lot of the horror show, but sometimes you will. And the only way to know it is to get there. And so I use the working out analogy if you're going to, you know, people don't like exercising because it hurts, it's painful, but it's a hell of a lot harder to create momentum than it is to maintain it. And you have to work through the burn, you know, I mean, the first couple weeks of lifting weights, you're going to be sore. I mean, but if you can get over that hump, then you start seeing the real progress. And I think, I think that applies to any area of growth. And I'm always encouraging people work through the burn, you know, just make sure you don't make really stupid decisions, you know, early on as best you can and that sort of stuff. And so, you know, I guess my comment or question to you is, you know, just any other advice you have would have on, you know, working through the burn or whatever you would call it.

Yeah, yeah. And again, I think it's one of those things that's going to vary according to the personality of the entrepreneur or the marketer. But, you know, I've always been pretty good at failing. I've failed a lot in my life. I could probably think of myself as a specialist in failing if I count how often I fail. But I think it's fail fast and learn from it has often been my strategy. You know, gosh, I've made an ass of myself so many times in my life, but I've learned from each time and I've lost Money so many times, and it's just doing these things. But learning from it is what I think helps improve us and make us stronger and make us better and makes our marketing better. So I'd say fail a lot, but do it quickly.

Yeah, yeah. And then run what works. Right. I mean, that's really the key, is run with what works.

Don't give up after you figure.

Figure it out.

Yeah.

So, Dean, what final words of wisdom do you have? And then we'll. I want to ask Mike to give out his website. I don't think anyone got it during this entire, you know, episode. And I want to make sure people write it down. Get, get. Get the correct spelling. So any, Any final questions or comments aside From Go to headsets.com and get the office runner. Right, Right. No. So, Mike, so what are your famous last words? What do you see the future of for, you know, headsets.com and anything else that you're focusing on, books you're reading, any final things that you'd like to share with the listeners. And then, of course, you know, give out the site so they can, you know, get notified of reserve dinners if they're interested in that and anything else. Yeah.

Well, thank you, Joe. Thank you. Is this the bit where I do the subliminal advertising and say, go to headsets.com and you'll live longer and feel better and get wealthier?

Right, right. But you stage it with what is disguised as some sort of useful business advice, which is really just a setup to get people to come and buy some headsets. That's it. Do you charge to let people see how you sell to them? I mean, that's what Joe and I, we always say that, that there's no extra charge to see how we sell things to people, so.

Yeah, exactly. People go to headsets.com, would they be.

Able to experience that? Yeah.

In fact, people that come and buy multiple headsets on multiple occasions can experience multiple times. It's kind of like it's an education in itself. It's a. It's cheaper than stuff, Stanford, but better. I mean, what. I think it's a great idea. So where would they go again? I can't remember. The website.

No, that, that. That's funny. So, so, I mean, about, about education. Do you. Do you read? How do you learn? I mean, you're. You're an eo. You. You do groups and things like that. But are you a reader? Are you someone that is a particular. What. What. How does Mike get better?

Yeah, I mean, I used to read a lot, Joe. And I don't so much now and I miss it and I wish I could. My attention span is gone, I think, as a result of the Internet and Google News. Of course, I'm blaming an external factor rather than taking personal responsibility here, but I used to read a lot of books. I used to devour them. I just don't read books anymore. And I'm not, I'm not proposing that that's good, I think it's bad, but it's just who I am right now. So I tend to take information better in. Better in a kind of auditory sense. So I love listening to peers, listening to great speakers. I'm still a fan now and again of picking up an Anthony Robbins tape and listening to it. And I just get kind of. I get that little kick of inspiration and I always pick up a good lesson from him. And my desk is littered with cassette courses, you know, Dennis Waitley, the Inner Winner and Wayne Dyer and these sort of people. So every now and again I'll listen. I've heard them many times over, but I'll re listen to one of those for inspiration. And then of course, learning by. I don't know, I want to say if this isn't a subliminal campaign, listen to things like ilove marketing.com or talking to you guys and who you're with. These are the things where I tend to learn now. Sorry, long answer to do I read books?

No, no, no. That's very good because everyone has their own way of doing it. But I don't know very, very many people that just become really good at what they do without educating themselves. Be it through in person meetings. I mean, I tend to love discussion groups. I mean I really like this. Getting in a room with a bunch of people and that are smart entrepreneurs and talking. I mean it's fun, it's enjoyable for me and it's where I probably learn most of my stuff in spite of the fact that I'm a pretty big reader and I'm a pretty big listener of audio programs and all that. So cool. So Mike, if they want to go to reserve dinners, how does someone find out about that?

Sure. Reservedinners.com and there's a sign up there and we got pictures of some of the previous dinners that have been public and always pleased to. To add people to the list.

Awesome. Awesome. So thank you for taking the time. Really appreciate it. Headsets.com, really awesome company. And of course, I know we've said this very jokingly, but everyone go buy a headset. I mean, for the love of God. I mean, you can at least buy a headset today or three. I mean, buy one for friends and family. I mean, you can even buy if you want if you're finding I love marketing really, really enormously valuable. And how could you not unless you're brain dead? You can buy Office Runner headsets for me and Dean and you can mail them to me and Dean. You can send us gifts. I mean, the address is@joepolish.com you can send to the address there. I'd probably do that before sending anything to Dean. I think there's a more karmic value there. So, I mean, just whatever. So do it. Go to headsets.com and thanks for taking the time. Mike, seriously, you're doing great work. Thank you. And always fun talking with you and Dean.

Do you have anything to say?

That's awesome. Thank you so much. Great to talk. Awesome. And everyone, leave your comments@ilovemarketing.com what you thought about it. I really like Mike's idea of changing the last name. And if you have any ideas for that, post them@ilovemarketing.com have a great day and thanks again, Mike.

Hey, thanks both of you. I appreciate it very, very much.

Keep up the good work. Thanks, Scott.