The Power of Yoga to Increase Your Balance, Your Health, and Your Happiness With Baron Baptiste and Joe Polish - Genius Network Episode #183
16 Sept 2022 · 35 min
This content was created by Joe Polish. This content was uploaded by Joe Polish. This is a podcast titled "The Power of Yoga to Increase Your Balance, Your Health, and Your Happiness With Baron Baptiste and Joe Polish - Genius Network Episode #183". It features a conversation between Joe Polish and Baron Baptiste, recorded on September 16, 2022. They discuss the benefits of yoga, personal development, and the impact of yoga on personal and professional life, including anecdotes from Baptiste's career and personal experiences.
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What it will do to your being. I mean, you are the vessel that you carry around. If you're fatigued, if you're lethargic, if you're tired, all of. And it's not just this. This is just a piece of the puzzle and you find things that you like. I've made more money as a result of doing yoga and fitness and exercise than any sales letter I ever wrote because I couldn't implement and execute that shit if I felt in just a state.
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Yoga is one of the best things that you can do to be even healthier and happier. There are over 100 different styles of yoga. One of these is called Baptiste Yoga. And you will meet the founder of this amazing style of yoga. Give it up for my friend, Baron Baptiste. So, two things I want to do. First off, you're one of the most well known yoga teachers, instructors, mentors in the world. For people that don't know who you are, could you give them some background on who you are, how many people you've reached, what you do, that sort of thing? And then I want to. My goal for today is to leave everyone here with inspiration to go take on a practice that absolutely can enhance and transform your life in ways you can't even imagine. And I think you're the best person that could possibly direct them in that area.
Yeah. Yeah. Well, in a nutshell, I was born into a family of yoga teachers. My parents opened the first yoga center in San Francisco in like 1952, long before I was born. But my parents are real, like, seekers. And they were like, they would travel the world. I would go to Asia, they'd take me along. My sisters and I along with them would go to India and all over Asia and study with different, in holistic institutes and ashrams with different gurus. And that was probably my greatest education. And to a great degree, when you were a kid. We started going when I was probably 9 or 10 years old and I was rolling my eyes most of the time. I wanted to be back home playing with my friends. I didn't want to, you know, so we're going to this, okay, here's some dude in an orange robe up there talking. We're meditating, like, oh, mom, can we just, can I go back to the room and play a game? But you know, in hindsight, just moving forward in my life, when I got into my early 20s, I was on my own. I moved to Los Angeles and I was like, wait. And I was grappling with my own. I was lost, confused, I didn't know what I wanted to do. I had no purpose. I really was pretty lost. Young guy without going into my teenage years, hugely rebellious, hugely destructive. There were certain lines I wouldn't cross but I was pretty self abusive and just ran the streets. So I was all out coming out of all that. I wanted to find myself. So I left San Francisco where I grew up, moved to la. I knew I wanted to clean my life up and find a bigger purpose. I felt something was calling me so I started recognizing like wait, I have some practices. Things that were real gifts that my parents introduced me to and gave me and that I was around and I was like, I started putting those into practice. But I remember my dad would talk to me in my teenage years saying, well don't go to college, you're going to become a yoga teacher. And I'd always say, dad, I'm like the last thing I'm going to do on God's green earth is ever, mark my word, ever become a yoga teacher, right? Like it's not going, I'm not going to be like you all, you all are kind of weird and I am going to be normal. And so long story short, I tried a lot. I worked in a lot of different industries. I worked in radio, I was in acting, I was got into fitness, I was doing private training and then something started happening that I do these training sessions and I was right in Beverly Hills. So I started getting these celebrities, like big name a listers. That world's small there. When you're good at something, the word passes around. And I was studying yoga, I was practicing yoga diligently but I wouldn't teach it. So I would go with people and train them in more classical traditional fitness. And then at the end I would do about 10 minutes of like stretching but it was really yoga practice. And then I, you know, put them into a, talk them through a visualization and a meditation. And then what started happening is like well wait, could we do. I'd show up at their home to train them and like, could we do more of the like last 10 minutes? And then I would. And it just grew into it just kept calling me in a lot of different ways. I went and interviewed to be a trainer and aerobic like a cross training group fitness teacher. And the, at the, it was called Voight Fitness and dance in Hollywood and it was like the mecca of fitness on the planet. People would come from all over the world. It was, like where trends in fitness used to start back in the 90s. And I wanted. It was a dream that was like, top of the line, you know, to be on staff, be a trainer at Voight was. So I went in to not do yoga, but to do that. And I auditioned. It was a group audition, people going up, and I auditioned, and they pulled me. The owners, Karen and Hank Voight, pulled me aside after and said, you know, we're not going to hire you as a fitness trainer, but we. Someone here knew you knows your background. Like, your dad was like, a Mr. American, but he used, like, yoga. Like, you have a whole yoga background. And they're like, we haven't been able to make yoga work here in this, you know, fitness people don't. It just. We've tried a lot of different teachers, and it just hasn't worked here. We want to try you out if you'll come and teach yoga. I'm like, oh, man, are you kidding me? And so I said, okay. So they said, make up a flyer here. You're gonna teach. I forget Mondays and Saturday mornings, something like that. I made up a flyer, and I just coined this term. I just. What do I call it for fitness? But I go, power yoga. And then I put up this flyer, and it was a Saturday morning, and I was like, you know, those classes at fitness, they had like, nine or 10 different classrooms, like, dance studio, kind of. And my room was up. You have to walk three stories up. And it was on this top room. And I remember walking up this long line, and I. And I knew there were two rooms up there, and I was like, walking. I go, oh, man, I wonder what class all these people are waiting in line for. And so I get to the top. I'm like, this is my class. There's like 75 people there. And I just put in the flyer my celebrity trainer trainer to yada yada. I listed a whole bunch of cool names, and then you knew you knew.
How to market to Americans.
Barely. Yeah. Yeah, barely. But I was like, it was. This is about fitness. It's about mind body fitness. You know, strengthen your mental musculature along with your, you know, all that. And then I led the class, and I thought I sucked. And I was literally stood by the door when people are leaving, almost like, sorry. I felt, like, apologetic, and people are, like, lit up. And then Hank was there, the owner. He goes, man, people love that. And so that launched something right there. It was just the energy of. Was just There for me. Wow. Yeah.
Wow. So just that. That moment of validation where you knew you were onto something.
Yeah, yeah, yeah. And then that went. And I literally had. Well, I got stuck at a certain point. I'll stop talking in a second to say this part. I had about. It got to a point where about. Almost. About 3,000 people were coming through my classes every week. And they have to. They ended up in the largest room there. And it. And it was, you know, sold out bases. Whether I taught at two in the afternoon or whenever, it just. And there was nothing like that in la. It was like this. It was flow, it was heat. It was, you know, freeing and for people. And people walked out feeling different, better than they walked in. But. But my story where I was in LA, that was like in the early 90s, teaching. I was stuck at a certain point. I didn't know how to get out of that. Just teaching classes. And I sensed there was something bigger. And I knew Tony Robbins somehow. I don't remember. I had some connection there. So I was on his list, and I was at home. And so my wife, at the time, we had just had a new baby, probably a year old. We're living in an apartment in Bel Air, and I was barely making ends meet. I mean, now looking back, I made those Voight people rich, but I was. They were paying me 25 cents a person, 25 cents a head. Yeah. And. And you're talking a lot of people, and. And they were charging, I think, you know, $12 a class or something. And they gave me a raise. Everyone, like, yeah. Anyhow, that's another story. So. So, yeah, and I'm grateful for the opportunity. It gave me my start, but this is what I'll say. I was at home one day, I got a call, a cold call, and it was this guy selling me, trying to sell me a $5,000 weekend. And it was someone from J. Abraham, a sales guy, person from J. Abraham's office. I'm like, I don't. Dude, I don't have $5,000. I'm a yoga teacher. I've got a wife, baby. I could barely pay rent. He's like, no, we'll guarantee you'll get your money back, and if you don't, you won't pay something like that. And so he signed me up for $5,000, $500 a month anyhow, for 10 months. And my wife wouldn't talk to me. She was so furious, right? She's like, are you freaking nuts? Like, we can't even pay rent. Like, we can't even. Like, I go, look, the guy, guaranteed. So anyhow, I go to the J. Braham thing.
It's the same conversation most people have with their spouses coming in.
I put it out. You know, it's like, when I hear the 100,000 membership, there's something about. You put it out. You're playing a bigger game. It's a bigger force field. Yeah. During your. So I was like, no, I'm putting myself out. And my wife didn't understand the talk at the time. She was like, no, I've got a baby. I've got. Like, you know, we need food. So I understood, but I was like, no, I need to do this, and I'll figure it out. Just trust me. So I. Anyhow, I did the whole thing with Jay the weekend, and I got one thing. It was like, write a letter. Just write a letter. Like, you know, get. You know, like, I got something to get off my chest. Write it to my community, right? So I was like, okay. And do a workshop. I had never done a workshop. I was doing classes or retreats. So I found a facility in Ojaike, which is about an hour and a half hour outside of la. And I wrote this whole letter, like, telling people, this retreat is going to change your life. We're going to do yoga, meditation, personal growth, and it's going to change everything for you. It's going to be a transformation. And in those days, you know, it wasn't online. You couldn't register online. So I had the. Perforated. The flyer, and then it was perforated. And then you send in a check, or you could write your credit card on paper and mail it to my house, right? So. And I was like, okay. My wife's like, hey, I have to put money up now to hold the retreat center money. I didn't. I didn't have money to make copies of Kinko's of the flyer, hardly. And so it was. Anyhow, I sent the letter out, and I'm like, look, we're gonna charge $250 to come the retreat. All I need is 10 people to pay for the J. Abraham seminar, right? And then. So I did the math. I sent the letter out, and I did. And then mail started pouring in, especially as a retreat was getting closer. The retreat facility only fit 40 people. Like, 39 people. And 250 people registered.
Oh, wow.
And we received all this money in the room. Literally, the yoga room there, only four fit, like, 40 people. And I had 200. Yeah, 50 people coming. And I'm like, okay, this is a problem. This is a problem. And I'm like. I looked at my wife, I go, we have to send the money back. She's. We're not sending the money back because it's going to pay off my college debt. My. So anyhow, that I just want. That got me started into doing retreat.
Did they all show up and what did you do?
Yeah, I got so creative. I created a schedule for. I found how, you know, we found housing outside that property. And then I worked my butt off. I taught 12, 15 hours. Like morning, like got everybody out hiking, you know, on a morning hike. That's easy, get everybody out, you know, 6, 7am, do a long walk. And then, and then the classes I put in rotation. So there was like a 8am class, you know, 9:30 class. And I built in 15 minute windows for myself to, you know, take a piss, get some water, drink a smoothie. And I rotated people through and made it work. Yeah. You know, and that opened up a whole world for me there. Oh, and the other thing is I didn't know how. I've never taught any personal development. I know how to teach yoga and I could lead meditation. And I. So I'm like, oh wait, I way over promised, like I don't know how to deliver on this promise. Like it's gonna change your life. So.
Anyone ever done that before?
I'm like shit now. But what I. I just looked, you know, I had a recent really life altering thing that I forgave my father and my mom. But really it was like with my father I had discovered just a year before so much resentment that I had and judgment I had toward my parents, toward my dad. And I went and forgave my father and asked for his forgiveness for judging him for being a jerk of a son and yada yada. And that changed everything for me. It literally transformed my whole life that one act. So at the program I just created forgiveness workshops because it was the one thing I knew how to do. Yeah, yeah. And then I'll just share this one outcome because it stuck with me. It confirmed that I was on the right path. Like I tapped into my calling, which about. So that retreat happened and by the way, there were a lot of. I mean this is a side note and I don't want to sound like I'm bragging, but a lot of the registrations that came in were just by names I didn't really recognize or anything like that. And then what I found out is when people showed up, there were a lot Of. I mean, I was in Beverly Hills, Hollywood, and a lot of my clients were like, Hollywood. Most of them are entertainment industry people. I'd say the majority. And what happened, there was a lot of famous people showed up, and I was like. And I didn't. But their assistants filled out the registrations, right? So it's like, okay, that's. Who. Who's your assistant? Like. But anyhow, one man was a big mogul, like a very successful man in the. In the. In this program. And. And I was leading this forgiveness workshop. And he, you know, and there's something again, back to the body as the access. Something about the yoga practice. And this man, it was his first, like, his friend or wife, someone brought him to this. It was like his first kind of introduction to yoga. And then just being still, meditating, getting present to his body, you know, the man. A lot opened up. Like, it just a lid came off. And this guy, like, we get. And then the work forgiveness workshop, you know, we're sharing and people are talking and I'm sharing my story. And it was just so embodied in him. He had, like, just so much grief and, like, regret of how he had lived. And he just shared how, you know, like, look, I have everything I've got. You want, you know, houses in Paris or French Riviera or New York or, you know, Bel Air. Like, he goes, I've got wealth. I've got all the things. And he said, but my, you know, my kids don't know me. I can look back all the carnage of business partners and people I've burned and people that I've hurt and harmed, and it was all just, like, right there for him. And I shared my whole forgiveness thing. I was like, look, it's one thing to go. And. Because I did this the first time with my parents, I went and told them I forgive them for ruining my life. Yeah. Like, I woke up to the truth and I'm screwed. And I have all this resentment because you ruined my life. And it didn't go well. You know, they didn't. We didn't talk for, like, two years. Yeah. But I kept doing the work. And yeah, literally a couple years later, I had this epiphany. I'm like, wait, wait, wait. No, this is me. Like, it's my life. Like, I'm an adult. It's like I'm being childish, like, blaming them. And so I was living in LA at the time. This is before cell phones. So I jumped on a flight to San Francisco, showed up unannounced at my Parents, front door rang, the bell, they open. I remember my mom opened the door, and my dad was standing there like, oh, no, here we go. Because I said, I need to talk to you. And they're like, oh, no, here we go. And like, no, no. I want you to know that I just acknowledge you for everything you've done for me and that everything good in my life is because of you. And I really. I recognize it's all the amazing, like, gifts you have given me, and you've been there for me and that, you know, I've been a jerk. I've been resenting you and judging you, and I'm sorry. Like, I just said sorry, and they start crying. And it was really. At that point, I got to know my parents for the first time in my whole life. Up to that point. I was seeing them through the eyes of a teenager. And. But I got to know my mom. Like, I really got to know her for the. The next 20, 30, whatever years that was. She lived until 2016, got to know my dad and was able to just accept them. But here's my point. So this mogul guy shared that story or some version of that story. And this man, this mogul guy, you know, he left. We left the program. And then about six months later, I get a phone call from his wife, and she said, you know, so and so passed away. He just passed away like, a month ago. And she said, and I just want to thank you because he was a changed man out of that retreat. She said, he went and he forgave. Like, he just forgave himself, starting with himself. And he said, you know, he went and he just made amends with his. From his family, his kids, to people in his work world. And he just. He died. It's just like he died, I forget, from cancer or something, but it was like. Because he died a peaceful man. So it was like that. And that was, like, right there, like, those little clues. I've now realized, in hindsight, I have lots of clues like that that are like, oh, yeah, I'm, like, in alignment, my calling, something bigger than myself. Yeah.
If you give yourself the space to pay attention to it. And sometimes it takes time, sometimes it takes work. I mean, I've said this before. Is being in the middle of a really good yoga class. Call it yoga. Call it anything that gets you into whatever you can embody, flow, whatever it is for you. Some people it's music. Some people, it's, you know, intense, intense expression. Others, it's getting to a place of peacefulness. I just feel better than almost any million dollar business deal I'm putting together. Whatever. There is something about how you feel because. So there's the part of my life that's make money, do things, be productive, and there's the other where it's just feeling connected. And most of my life when I was in addiction, even when I had, you know, become, you know, financially, you know, capable, I still, most of my life was feeling like there's a dark cloud over my head raining on me and I'm in a hurry to get away from it. But the fucking cloud just followed me everywhere I went. So I was always in a hurry to be somewhere. And then as soon as I got there, I was in a hurry to be somewhere else. And then I started noticing that about so many of my entrepreneurial friends, you know, this drivenness, this drive is incredible because you can do things, but when it's driving you off a cliff, it's not very incredible. It's very painful and it's. And so there's a lot of, you know, there's a lot of very successful people that really do, in some cases not even unethical. There's just a lot of people that are driven and they help others, but they don't help themselves and they just have that constant anxiety. And what I like about your book is you actually not only talk about all the yoga and the practices and what it does, but you actually talk about the darkness that you encountered and the self doubt and all of the things where and how through the process. So you kept coming back to the work, what is it? Why do it?
You know, I think that in contrast to the world we all live in and the world is in trouble, you know, it's like inhumanity at a humanity level. And I think that we live in a life, we live in a world. And as entrepreneurs we're all about creating. So creation, which is in the world of action. And to spend time on like what I like to call the creature, you know, there's like creation and then there's the creature that fulfills, takes the actions, does the thinking, does the. So sometimes we ignore the creature, all the different aspects of body, mind, being spiritually as well, and it's, and then there, so there's, yeah, creation, there's creature, spending more time on creature, if that's what's needed. Because we get so lost in that world of creating, doing, doing, busy, busy, you know, all of that. The creature suffers. But what I've learned anyhow, and what I teach people is that there's like, well, what's behind the creature? Like what's driving the, you know, what's the creator? There's creator, there's creature, there's creation. Yeah. And so to get clear on your source of strength, the source of your strength could call that cree, what's your creator? Or for me it's like I'm co creator. For if it just stops it myself, itself, then I'm okay, I'm creator and I create and creature and creation and with others. But as co creator that includes, I mean for me, God and, and my calling, I find vision, vision and calling as a part of co creating. And the creature is the instrument and, and a lot of us I it so our calling. Like I kind of, as I was sharing earlier, I just pointed to my calling. But I think that if for entrepreneurs, people in this room, I think to be clear on what is your calling? Because I think for me, I know my calling is my source of strength. In running programs and working with thousands. We had a pre pandemic, we had 100,000 people a week coming through our platforms, our programs, all brick and mortar globally and there's a lot of people. But to be clear in my calling as a source of strength and then as leader, you have to lead yourself. That includes body and yoga practice as you kind of pointing to, is a very powerful way to like physically to be embodied, you know, to be embodied and to know what's going on in your body. You know, I know you're pretty trained so you can look around the room. Like I can look around the room and you know, we're all walking autobiographies. You can tell a lot by people by just looking at the creature. You can see what's etched on their face, you know, fear or uncertainty or ease, equanimity, calm. It's like creature, you know, we see it all but to be present to one's own development. But here's what I want to say about calling. Just real quick. I don't want to go on a talk too long, but I'll say this. There's something about a return. So yoga to me, you know, a returning back. I think our calling is something like when I shared about forgiveness, like with my parents, right there was my calling. Like when I forgave my dad and something lifted off of me and I, and I love my mom in that moment, like I was five years old again. Like I literally felt like I was five years. Like I adored my mom and my mom adored me. And it allowed for that. But that was a return. Like, it was a revolution. My second book is based on this principle. It's called 40 days to personal Revolution. But revolution is a return. It's a full circle, right? You go all the way around. You come all the way back to. Like in the Bible, it says we cannot enter the kingdom of heaven unless if we come back to the ways of a little child. But I think as children, we kind of had this possibility about us, this limited, unlimited sense of possibility, like anything's possible. And we come back to that through a revolution. And what's at the center of that circle is our calling, is our source of strength. Let me just say this. It's a universe. So in yoga, they say there's om. There's a vibrational sound at the center, and there's light and there's motion, and then there's order. So. And if you. If you have motion without order, there's chaos. But we're in motion. That's. We're in creation, doing. We're in motion. So we. We need to put in order. And order is discipline. You know, you put in the discipline. So it's like you're speaking to how many yoga classes that. Or doing your cold soaps or your. That's a discipline that brings order to the motion, and you're at the source of that and your calling, your vision. The calling is so yoga practice. And for me, meditation is a key practice. And coming back to that source of strength, that universe, that one truth, one law, one song kind of thing, my.
Life just works better when I do it. And what if I'm really stressed out or really angst out or really overwhelmed? Nothing helps with the overwhelm than just fricking doing it. And the interesting thing is the time that I feel least like doing it is the time, you know, I'm most needed.
Right. And you're always left feeling the best, right? Totally after those times.
Yeah. And a lot of you, you know, you have been going to war, metaphorically, in your businesses and the stuff you have to deal with. And I just want to do whatever I can to share my perspective, our perspective. How many people have been through. How many people have you trained?
Yeah, I don't know, a lot.
I mean, there's millions of people have gone through Baptiste yoga classes. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Pre pandemic, we had. I mean, we're able to measure through. We had 200 brick and mortar studios locations, and we had 100,000 people a week coming through those. But those are the ones that we could measure because it's much kind of bigger than was bigger than that. Mark told me a cool story though. He said that when he first started the company like he worked for himself and maybe had like one employee. But he said he would go to yoga class every morning, 7am in San Francisco and then he would drive down to wherever his offices were in Silicon Valley. So he'd do a 90 minute class in the morning, he'd go work and then he would come back and do like a 7:30 class. And he said he literally. And he would do that five or six days a week. And he said he literally worked out his entire company every day. All the problems, all the things he was dealing with. He would get on, you know, that mat in that sweaty room and he would literally work out and solve his problems and how to grow, you know, and all that. And I was like, I came to learn the partly of why I was so attracted to yoga practice was I have adhd that some of these conversations around that were powerful for me but that I learned kinesthetically, I learned by doing. I just do. I was a terrible like in school, I just couldn't sit still and you know, all that. So and that when those kind of stories, like when Mark shared that with me, I'm like, that's exactly how I work so much in my life and result. And that's where when I say it's important for everyone, I think anyhow to locate your source of strength because that's what, that's a place where you can tap in if you're more physically oriented too. But to get in your body and move and breathe and, and locate your center and it's. Things get worked out. Energy moves, things get, you know, the faucet turns on energetically and creatively and it's amazing how much can get just sorted out and you're taking care of your. The creature.
Yeah. Awesome.
Yeah.
So, so let me say this.
And you don't need to do a lot by the way. I just want to throw that in. If you do 20 minutes a day, 30 minutes a day. Yeah. And then maybe two or three times a week do an hour or 90 minutes. But if you do that consistently, just try that for a month, see what happens.
And you can literally put a mat in your office, you may need to.
Try a few different classes or find a studio that you like. So you may have to just go and find a studio that you connect with. Because yoga is like, you know, it's like the word martial arts. There's like every type and style and find one that's that speaks to you and then commit to going, just go like for 30 days. If they sell like a 10 class or a 20 class card, buy it, swear to God.
I mean, some of you are sitting there going, I didn't sign up. I want a marketing shit. What's this yoga nonsense you're talking about? Trust me, this will help you. This will help you make so much money if you do this. Because what it will do to your being, I mean, you are the vessel that you carry around if you're fatigued, if you're lethargic, if you're tired. And it's not just this, this is just a piece of the puzzle and you find things that you like. You know, part of it is I want to just give you some options on things to try it on and some of you are really going to love it, others you'll be like, well, that's not it, but you're going to find the thing that you like. Yeah, I've made more money as a result of doing yoga and fitness and exercise than any sales letter I ever wrote because I couldn't implement and execute that shit if I felt in just a state. I mean, in a lot of ways. And maybe I'm, maybe I'm a little, it's a little self serving for me because it kind of is. This has all been part of my recovery process. So I try to share it with other people, but I know it works for so many people. This is not just an individual thing. If we don't have the way to release it. And the beauty of doing it consistently is all of that pain and all that energy and all that angstiness, you can just release it because if it builds up, you become a very bitter person. I mean, you can really lash out at people. And before you start lashing out at others, you're lashing out at yourself. And so part of this is to just help you work through and process it.
On move energy.
Joe, can I ask you a thought? It kind of reminds me of journaling. Like if you don't do it regularly, there's so much mental and thought blockage. But if you just do this regularly, it just. They call it like spiritual windshield wipers, you know, if you don't do it, it's just, you know, I think this is kind of physical. This is kind of the physical where it just keeps it clear rather than all these odd buildups.
Yeah, I'll just say quality of life is, you know, something to look at. If you, if you live to 79 years old, you have 4,000 weeks to live. If you live, you know, the average age, I believe, is like 79 years old. If you live to 79, you have 4000 weeks to live. How do you, you know, what, 1400 or so minutes a day? How are you spending the quality of life? Right. And. But it works. If you work it kind of thing.
So that's it. Give it up for Baron Baptiste. Thank you.
Thank you all. It's awesome.
Thank you.
Thank you. Appreciate it.
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Why The Epoch Times Exists: Truth, Tyranny, and the Price of Telling It With Joe Polish, Rob Schneider, and Jan Jekielek


Cut Through the Noise: Why Your Mom Has a 100% Open Rate with Joe Polish and Dean Jackson - I Love Marketing Episode #481


Overdeliver: What Still Works When Everyone Has AI with Joe Polish and Brian Kurtz
