The Top 10 Professions That Attract High-Level Psychopaths Ft. DoctorRamani

So let me ask you to define narcissism and let's make some distinctions between sociopaths, psychopaths, because I think that'll help with the foundation here.

So I think the key here, number one, what is narcissism? It's a lack of empathy, entitlement, grandiosity, arrogance, inability to manage any kind of disappointment, and that tends to be manifested as rage, chronic validation seeking, and— but all of this, envy of other people, But all of this, the core of it, and this is what gets forgotten, is that it's all based on a deep, deep insecurity. Everyone looks at the narcissist, they say they're charming, they're confident, they're successful, they're smart. That doesn't mean if you're those things you're narcissistic. But if it's built on that core insecurity, that's why the person needs to be grandiose and entitled. Because if I was that fragile inside, my temptation would be to protect it. It's like if you broke your arm, what do we do? We put a cast on it. Why? So the arm doesn't get broken again or the bone doesn't get agitated or moved. When you have a broken inside, you're that insecure, you're gonna protect it. How do you protect it? I'm the shit. I'm the best. No one's better than me. Why should I have to wait in this line? I'm the best after all. Everybody move out of my way so I can be the first in line. Why am I not the VIP? All of that's protective. All of that is them putting this carapace around this fragile interior. So anything from the outside that cracks it, Marital breakup, somebody else beating them at what they do, getting more sales, having more money, having a bigger yacht, having a better whatever, that is going to piss them off. And that's where you see the rage and the acting out. That's narcissism, okay? There's different kinds of narcissism. There's grandiose narcissism, which is sort of textbook, come to my palace and be palace-y with me, and I'm so great, and you're so lucky to be my friend, and I'm so beautiful. That's what we classically think of narcissism. But then there's the malignant narcissist, and that is somebody who's downright dangerous. They are malevolent, they're exploitative, they're manipulative. They smell like a psychopath, but you're going to learn in a minute why a malignant narcissist isn't a psychopath. They're slightly different creatures. There are the more vexing covert narcissists. These are people who don't look like narcissists. They look like victims. The world was never fair to me. I never got a fair shake.

You know what?

Maybe he succeeded because he got more money to start with than me. I would have been better than him if my dad gave me money. Up front, you know what? I'm too good to show up to a job. Why should I do that? Like I got all these ideas. I'm the next Steve Jobs. Like let the world find me. That's covert narcissism. They look so hangdog and so sad all the time that people often think they're depressed, and they come to a therapist's office who thinks they're depressed and treats them for depression for three months, and then wonder why they're not getting anywhere. And this person, well, the world is against me. The world is against me. The world. Is against me. Their grandiosity is, why doesn't the world see how great I am? Versus the grandiose person who says, look how great I am. And then there's even what we call noble narcissists. These are the people who do lots of charitable work and have these big rescue the elephants, rescue the world, rescue everyone kinds of profiles, but they're doing it solely for validation.

That's the same as a communal narcissist?

No, same as a communal. Same as a communal or noble narcissist. These are the people who You think like, wow, they're saving the world. They're so charitable. They're so wonderful. But then catch them behind closed doors and they treat their partners, their families, anyone one-to-one, their staffs, absolutely horribly. So they only have empathy when they're on stage or they're saving an elephant.

I mean, I see so much of that in the— especially in the stuff that I've done in the nonprofit world. And the— is— yeah, it's cosmetic.

It's very cosmetic. Yes. But it's So the work is being done in the name of seeking validation.

Right.

Versus for the meaning and the purpose or the— just the higher purpose, as you will, of doing the actual work. That's narcissism. I'm sure you're wondering what's the difference between that and narcissistic personality disorder. There was a wonderful book by Alan Frances called Twilight of American Sanity. I don't know if you've read it, but it's a fantastic book. The diagnosis of narcissistic personality disorder only entered the world of psychiatry in the 1970s. This is a late entry. Freud wrote about it. Otto Rank was the first person who wrote about it. These were early, early, you know, analysts and obviously theoreticians. But we didn't make it a diagnosis till the '70s. Frances was one of the people who wrote about it. When Trump got elected, he wrote this book about narcissism. And he's like, Trump doesn't have narcissistic personality disorder. Why not? Because in order for something in the DSM, the Diagnostic and Statistical Manuals of Mental Health, Mental illness. You have to— in order for it to be diagnosed, it either has to be causing the person subjective distress. Think about a depressed person. They're uncomfortable. They can't get out of bed. They feel sad all the time. They're angry. Or it has to be causing them social and occupational impairment. You look at somebody who's got a— seems to the world a fine marriage, or at least the person thinks it's a fine marriage or relationship. They seem to have perfectly fine kids. At least to the world it looks like that, and the person thinks that, and they're not having any distress, we don't get to diagnose it. Which is why the majority of people with narcissistic traits don't get diagnosed, because nobody ever lays eyes on them.

Yeah.

So that's their— that's why the prevalence of narcissistic personality disorder is about 1 to 5%. I'm spitballing here because we don't have the numbers. The prevalence of narcissism in the American culture is probably closer to 30%. That gap is—

So 30% of—

I would guess so, yeah.

Wow.

Yeah. That's— it's 1 in 3. You know, but now when we go to psychopathy, we jump the rails. Narcissist, insecure, okay? When the mask gets pulled off the narcissist— and he and I were talking about his program about, you know, getting people ready to go to prison. One of the things he's gonna run into most— and this has come up when I've taught at jails and prisons about this to the clinicians there— Is that they're so insecure. Now the mask is off. Shame, you're a bad guy. Like there, I was once supposed to do I think an interview with Steve Madden. I was telling him for for this thing on narcissism, and he was actually willing to subject himself to talking to me. And then at the eleventh hour, I think he had something more interesting to do. Surprise, surprise! But he acknowledged it. He said the thing he was most frightened of was going to jail or going to prison, and he did.

Yeah.

And so it shatters them. A psychopath is not insecure. They have no fear, they have no anxiety, and they're completely stress-resistant, which is why they make, for example, great surgeons. They make great CEOs. They make great— anyone who needs to stay completely calm at a time of tremendous danger, right? So nothing bothers them. That's just why they make great hired assassins. I mean, anything that requires you to be calm, cool, and collected under conditions that are difficult for people to do that. They're dangerous.

I was, I was watching a show on drug lords and, and gangsters and mob leaders and stuff, and they were talking about the brain scans of some of these people in fearful situations. For most people, it doesn't even register. It doesn't bother them at all. So is this genetic?

Yeah, so the belief with psychopathy is it's definitely biological, and the imaging studies have shown that very clearly. There's likely— the genetic piece is still being argued because think about it, The far, far more men have been diagnosed with psychopathy than women, so we don't see— there's almost no research on female psychopaths, though we see them. An interesting speculation would be someone like Elizabeth Holmes. Is she a malignant narcissist, or is she a psychopath? Like, I've watched everything on her I can because you don't see women in these situations much. She's somewhere— I haven't talked to her, so I don't know, right?

Right.

But it's that— but the key with the psychopath is they feel no remorse. That's the issue. They feel truly no remorse. The narcissist actually does feel some remorse.

Okay.

For anything from even smaller-time stuff like infidelity to big-ticket stuff— I embezzled $20 million. So a Madoff-type reaction? Psychopathy. Okay, that's a great— absolutely didn't register. Like, this is really inconvenient that you're doing this to me, but no circumspect sense of how this impacted other people.

Do they fake it as if they—

They fake it.

They can fake it. They absolutely can fake it. But it really— it's like an aftermarket thing, like about This was about 10 hours too late. Like, this should have been what you led with. Another one was that guy Larry— God, what the hell was his— Larry Nassar. He was one of the physicians in the whole gymnastics issue of all the gymnasts who were sexually abused. I dug deep into that case 'cause he felt so psychopathic. All he's— he never, ever expect— expressed remorse to the girls and young women he harmed. All he said is basically, this is a pain in the neck. Why are you wasting so much time?

Mm-hmm.

You're hearing similar discourse from a gynecologist who sexually abused countless scores of girls and women over 20 years at USC. Just no, you're inconveniencing me with all these proceedings. I'm like, oh my God, you've destroyed hundreds of lives. There's no— that doesn't register. A narcissist would show more guilt and shame under those conditions.

So sociopath.

Sociopath. This is a less articulated condition. A lot of people incorrectly interchangeably use the term psychopath and sociopath. The psychopath is considered to be, again, that calm, cool, callous, calculated, smart person who's just able to barrel through in a remorseless way. And we have much more evidence that that is a central nervous system phenomenon. The sociopath is likely someone who was— and again, criminologists and everyone argue about this— that may be more of something that was created by the environment. Somebody who was beaten up a lot by a father or a caregiver, somebody who grew up on the streets or under conditions of tremendous, tremendous deprivation or danger, and that under different conditions the story could have probably gone a little bit differently. They also tend to be more combative. You'll probably see a lot more sociopaths in prison than you will psychopaths. Sociopath gets into a bar fight. A psychopath would never, you know, diminish themselves in that way. They'll find a way to slowly destroy that person's life or kill them and no one will ever know the difference kind of thing. So whereas a sociopath, they'll fight, they'll get into a street fight, they'll get into a bar fight, they're less regulated, they tend to be less successful. The big difference that's been brought up in the literature is a psychopath at some level doesn't understand the function of rules.

They're like, why is this a rule? Like, why can't—

she did me wrong in a drug deal, like, why can't I kill her? Like, please help me understand this. A sociopath, in knows he shouldn't kill her and still will.

Interesting.

Yeah, so there's a not knowing, but that said, even though there's a not knowing in psychopathy, psychopathy cannot be used as part of the insanity defense in the United States. That has been taken off the table.

What— I mean, is there any idea how many people in the United States, as an example, or North America, are sociopaths, psychopaths?

I would guess with psychopathy, Merciful, it's probably under 2%. It's a pretty low frequency phenomenon. It's rare. It's terrifying. And interestingly, some of the professions like I was reading some research on the top 10 professions that have psychopaths in them, and amongst those were surgeon, CEO, and clergy. Yeah, those are the professions that attract psychopaths.

Wow!

Wow!

So statistically speaking, if there's anything there, then there's 30% of this audience in. narcissists then?

Um, maybe. Yeah, I mean, and this— I mean, again, I don't want to be mean to them, the ones that you just said, because I love this group, has been amazing. Yeah, but what you might find in a group like this, because everyone is so successful, is sort of what I consider just subthreshold narcissism, like just enough cockiness to get you into trouble. And I would love to sit with each and every one of you and find out what your close personal relationships are like, because it may very well be that That that's where it's not working as well as it could be. And again, you may have also gotten lucky, Joe, because you're you, and you might have gotten 100% entrepreneurs where there's not a single narcissist in the room. Listen, is a little of it going to make you successful in business? Sure, because if her and I are vying for the same job and I'm like, oh, she's so sweet, I'm going to give her all the intel, we're in this together, I may not get the job. But if girlfriend's like, girlfriend's like, yeah, she's going, she's like, I'm not telling her.

Right.

That's, you know, is that narcissism? I think it's probably a heavy-handed use of the word, but that lack of empathy, I mean, that to me is what the whole thing sort of hinges on. And then when we talk about the origins of narcissism, I think people can self-reflect. But I got to tell you, so far my alarms maybe have gone off 1.5 times today at the most.

There's a link below in the description, or you can wait till the end of this video, or you can simply go to joesfreebook.com and you can get a copy there. Helping the person heal, not so much emphasis on the narcissist itself, although the first beginning part lays the foundation and the groundwork.

So for people that are out there, let's play a game.

How do you spot a narcissist in a crowd?

You know, You know, it's funny, that's— this is the question everyone grapples with. How quickly can I find them? What are the red flags? How can I pick them out in a crowd? I mean, listen, it's a probability game, right? It's like picking a horse in a race. You're gonna— if you pick the odds-on favorite, it's probably a good bet, but they still may not win the race. In a crowd, if somebody said, all right, I'll give you $10, tell me who's most likely the most narcissistic person here, I'm probably gonna gravitate to either the most charming, charismatic, attention-seeking person in the room, Mm-hmm. Or the most aggrieved, angry person in the room. Those are my 2 bets, right? They're different people. Sometimes that aggrieved, angry person isn't as socially skilled. They might be sort of victimized and sullen and petulant and grrr, whereas that grandiose, charismatic, charming person is smooth as can be and is pulling old, you know, pulling chairs out for ladies to sit at the table, like all the manners and all of that. So you'll see these 2 different kinds of portrayals. But those are the 2 people I'd be looking for in a room. Unfortunately, we're drawn to that charming, charismatic person.

Yeah, no, totally, totally. So do narcissists usually develop relationships with non-narcissists, or do they often find each other together?

So you find— you're asking such an interesting question, and I've really been doing a deeper dive into this issue, so I'm so glad you asked it. One of the things that people struggle with is they say, am I a narcissist magnet? And one thing I tell everyone, who's ever gotten into a narcissistic relationship, I say to them, you know why the narcissist chose you? Not because you're the broken gazelle, not because you're damaged, not because you look like an easy mark. They chose you because you were attractive. They chose you because you're good supply. And whatever— for every narcissist, supply is a little different, right? Narcissistic folks are heat-seeking status missiles. They want status, right?

Yeah.

Now, status means different things to different people. For some people it's looks and appearance. For another person it may be money. For another person it might be position. For another person it might be contacts. It depends on everyone, right? And for some people it might be that they're absolutely beautiful, but like very malleable, right?

Yeah.

But that supply is gonna be different. So they chose you 'cause you're a fantastic supply. And a narcissistic person isn't gonna choose someone who makes them look bad. So I always say, folks, if they chose you, you got it going on. So let's not get into this place of you're somehow broken. And so for that reason, a narcissistic person could end up with any number of people in a relationship, including another narcissistic person, because another narcissistic person could be quite charming and charismatic and grandiose and attractive themselves. And you can imagine that's an extraordinarily volatile relationship. And we're talking a lot about intimate relationships in a way, in sort of how we're framing it. This can happen in families. This can happen in business relationships. You and I have talked about that a lot. And you can imagine if you're in business and you're looking for someone to be like this great business partner, someone who's really visionary and charming and energetic and charismatic, that might be who you're drawn to. And then before you know it, the whole business goes poof because you've got this narcissistic business partner.

Okay, so that's really great. I wanna have you go elaborate a little more on narcissistic supply, 'cause in your book you just define, 'cause that's what they want.

They want some love.

And we're like, what does that actually mean? And let me frame it from this standpoint. So we all go into relationships because we want something, right? I always say this all the time. It's like, what do people want? We're going to want to eat lunch later, right? Everybody wants something. People are coming to this event today because they want to do trauma healing. So everyone wants something. People go into relationships because they want companionship. Maybe they want intimacy, they want sex, they want whatever. So the narcissist, what are they actually seeking? Because I think it's— you really help people understand what they're looking for. And if they don't get it, they can get really ugly. They can get very violent. They can destroy their life, your life.

Right.

And I'm gonna, I'm gonna push back on you a little, Joe, here, is that everyone's wanting something in a relationship. Because I also think that even more primal to us is an attachment-seeking element. And that's less of a want, but a drive and a need. Right? Human beings are wired for attachment. And when a human being is not attachment-oriented, it's actually a bit pathologic, right? We're a tribal species. We live in small social groups. We need each other. We have, we have babies that take a long time to get to maturity. So that means you need multiple people on the job, right? So evolutionarily, we are attachment-seeking creatures, right?

Yeah.

So it means that most people are seeking attachment. connection, reciprocity, mutuality, compassion. They wanna, you know, there's caring and being cared for, right?

Right.

The narcissistic person though, isn't coming at that from a different angle. Not saying the narcissistic people don't want attachment, though they tend to be more anxiously and avoidantly attached. So they're either not, there's a lack of capacity for intimacy, or there's like a lot of a push-pull, in, out, in, out kind of thing. But that supply seeking is almost a higher order motivation for them, right? 'Cause that feeds that insecurity. There's an empty beast in them that's always needing more, more, more, more. And so that supply is something that not only makes the transaction of the relationship make sense to them, right? 'Cause a relationship isn't for that, just that attachment need for them. It's they're getting something from this, right?

Yeah.

Whatever getting something means. And it's usually some form of social status, right? But supply gets stale, right? At some point, that very attractive partner gets older and is not as attractive, or they're not a novelty anymore. And narcissistic folks are very reward sensitive. That's why we see a high overlap with narcissism and addiction, that same kind of dopaminergic orientation of reward, reward, reward, whatever that looks like, gambling, drugs, alcohol, sex, pick your poison, shopping.

Yeah.

You know, there is also that kind of compulsion we see. So that supply is really kind of an offset to the insecurity and the shame. And it bolsters those external defenses like entitlement, That allows the narcissistic person to sort of feel anodyne, in control, and able to dominate. So that— it's a constant sort of feeding the energy to do that.

Gotcha.

Does that make sense?

Totally.

Yeah.

And the other flip side, which I didn't finish on, like, we all want something. I tend to look at it from the standpoint of if you want something from somebody, make sure that your give is equal to or greater than what you want. So you're not a taker, right? And narcissists seem to be the ultimate Yeah, they just take. It's not a give, and if it is a give, it's like fake.

Well, it's a performative give. At that point, the give is still also a source of supply. That's where we talk about communal narcissism. Those narcissistic folks who— they sort of trick people because unlike the grandiose narcissist who's very extroverted and sort of, look at me, and sort of shiny and handsome and all this other stuff, or the vulnerable narcissist who plays victim and everyone gives them supply by trying to like save them or give them supply in some other way. The communal narcissist gets their supply by playing at humanitarian and rescuer and I'm the great savior. And so that's why at the most extreme end of the communal continuum, we would see a cult leader. But at the more mild ends, we'd see the person who seems to be organizing things to save every vulnerable group in the world, but behind closed doors, they're screaming at their spouse They're screaming at their staff. So, they're a terrible person, but to the world, they seem like a humanitarian. You know what I'm talking about.

I absolutely— you're the— when I first— you first shared that term with me about, I don't know, 4 years ago. We were talking, and I won't name names, very famous person, men and women that give to charity, let the whole world know they're doing it, social media posts, television, you name it, and they're donating to everything, they're contributing everything, but Absolutely, it's all a status-seeking, look at me, I'm so wonderful, I'm so great.

And Joe, the wellness world is also fraught with this too. I mean, I have worked with many people in yoga communities, things like that. They'll say, I went in with my heart open wanting to learn from this teacher, from this healer, and by the time they were done in this space, I went into vulnerable. A very narcissistic person was at the top of that food chain and advantaging people. And sort of is quite extortionate. It was humiliating. And that to me is heartbreaking because it's hard enough for a person to get to vulnerability, but then to get pulled into a community where once again they're caught in a toxic transaction, that's communal narcissism in play.

Totally.

What is the— I've got a few questions I've written down I wanted to ask you. So what's the single most surprising thing narcissists do that people never expect until it's too late?

I think the thing that throws people off about narcissistic folks is they're looking for almost a psychopathic lack of empathy. Does that make sense?

Mm-hmm.

So we keep hearing lack of empathy, lack of empathy. So they're expecting to meet someone cold and remote and distant who doesn't cry at movies and who doesn't like babies and doesn't like puppies and all of that stuff, right? So when they meet a narcissistic person who actually can seem quite gregarious and warm and cry at the movie and be emotional at times, that's what throws people off. And I think this is why we've gotta get away from this idea of the narcissistic person having like a forked tongue and, you know, like horns on their head. It's not that. People fall in love with these folks because there's a moment in time, in many moments in time, when they can show up with what feels like empathy, but it's often what we call cognitive empathy. Narcissistic people understand this idea of empathy. They understand emotion. They could say, I understand why you feel that way. It feels very analytic, but that's not emotional empathy, which is somebody's entire demeanor changing, somebody not screaming at you on a bad day because it's inconvenient, right? But that cognitive empathy, I have to say, is the thing that throws a lot of people off Because they'll see someone who looks and it like looks empathic. And so they're saying, well, maybe they're not narcissistic because they were really nice to my aunt when she came to visit, or they really cried at that person's funeral. Like they seem to show this emotion. And I think that the key is to sort of understand this idea of cognitive empathy, but also consistency and how they show up on your bad days.

Hey, I hope you're enjoying this video, and I want to let you know that I have a new book that's come out, and if you'd like to get it absolutely free, there's a link below in the description, or you can wait till the end of this video, or you can simply go to joesfreebook.com and you can get a copy there.

Gotcha.

No, great, great.

So why do so many people stay emotionally trauma bonded even when they know the narcissist is toxic?

So there's, there's a couple ways I want to go with this. One is the idea of trauma bonding is really based on what feels like almost like a physiologically unbreakable connection you have with someone that's created by that alternation between good and bad, or not so bad and better, or whatever it may be. But it's an alternation, right? If we think of it in its most primal way for how a trauma-bonded relationship is created for a child, the child needs the caregiver. There's no alternative here. So the child has to go through all of these mental accommodations to maintain that relationship— narratives they create, blaming themselves, anything to make it so they can maintain that relationship. And there's a lot of justifications, there's a lot of excuses, there's a lot of almost metaphysical thinking about the relationship to keep it in place, because the idea of losing that relationship for a child is a complete attachment fracture that the child simply couldn't tolerate and survive. Now, fast forward to adulthood where we don't have those same survival needs, but still that alternation with someone we feel attached to, connected to, that we love. Because there are some good days, again, that pattern of rationalization and justification and having the same arguments and never quite resolving them and making excuses for the relationship. And one of the things that also happens is people become isolated in these relationships. So they don't get that sort of alternate point of view, right? And that's all— there's something almost deliberate about that. People won't be able to articulate in an adult manner what they like about this person. Again, I always call it my trauma bond hack when I'm working with a client is they'll say, I love them, I love them. It's clearly a dysfunctional relationship. I'll say, what do you love about them? And the client will always pause. And they'll say, okay, Dr. Ramani, I well okay. So I love I I can't put it into word. That's when I know I'm like this is trauma bonding because when you really love someone and it's healthy, you'll say this is my friend, my companion. I love being with them. I look forward to seeing them. I we share so much like they're articulating a coherent model of the relationship. Versus a trauma-bonded relationship, there's no coherent schema because it's all based on this sort of physiological panic model. Does that make sense?

Totally.

And so the idea— and the person will say the idea of ending this relationship fills them with panic, even as they intellectually, at almost like a cerebral cortex level, they know this is not a healthy relationship. Like, I know they cheat on me, I know they lie, I know, I know. But what's happening is much more It's much more primal, right? It's much more, again, attachment-oriented, where there is a sense of panic of, what if I'm always alone? What if they find someone better? What if it's me that's not enough? And that panicky system is what sort of kicks in for someone. And undoing that is no small task therapeutically. A lot of folks really benefit from trauma-oriented work on where did this schema, where did this model come from?

Define schema.

So a schema is a mental model, right? And we can think of this in terms of, again, what I was using the term, a coherent narrative. A coherent narrative is being able to look at something holistically. Great example would be a childhood, right? A childhood where a person could say, I was abused by one parent, or I was abandoned by the parent, and since then I keep looking for people who reject me, but when a kind person comes along, I reject them. The person is able to see everything in a very coherent, consistent, stable way. So the more stable the schema, usually the healthier it is, because it almost becomes like a little mental GPS. You're like, I know how to navigate the situation. And schemas are driven by experience, or they're driven by temperament, they're driven by culture, and they're driven by personality, right? So, and having that model when it's coherent and healthy, then a person's also even able to say, oh, I see what I'm doing here in this relationship. But the I often see in the more trauma-bonded relationships, there's no coherence in that schema, in that narrative.

No, super helpful. So how, how do we set ourselves up for being able to develop healthy, connected relationships? Because you've heard this 1,000 times where someone's like, why do I keep picking this bad person?

What's wrong with me?

Like there's something their picker's messed up. And maybe it is, maybe the And when I say it, I mean they've been in damaging relationships and they're scared. They're gun-shy. They don't know what to do. They've been burned. They don't want to get hurt again. So therefore, they don't play to win. They play not to lose. And if you play not to lose, you tend to lose.

So I want to connect this back to our trauma bond question too. When we think of narcissistic relationships, we often make the knee-jerk assumption that this is a trauma-bonded relationship. Not necessarily so too. There are plenty of people in narcissistic relationships who aren't trauma-bonded but can't get out.

Yeah.

So it's very— and I work with a lot of folks who are in narcissistic relationships and not trauma-bonded. They're like, if this fool walked out the door tomorrow, as long as I could keep my kids or keep the house, I would be fine. So there's external structures, practical issues, minor children, finances, family court, A whole host of other things, family traditions, whatever it may be. So those folks are like, I see this 100% clearly, but there's no clear path out for me. Right now, to your point about how do we, how do we talk with people and create these healthier models of relationships? First of all, we need to create healthier models of relationships. We don't talk to people about this, right?

Yeah.

For all the things we talk about, we don't really have those straight up, informed by psychological science conversations of what makes a healthy relationship. And I keep using these terms: mutuality, reciprocity, respect, compassion, and above all else, Joe, psychological safety. That a person feels like they can come into a relationship and show up as they are, farts and all, and not feel that they are going to be rejected on that. And I say that jokingly, but I always say, like, There's the fart test in the relationship. That first time you pass gas in front of someone, you're like, oh my God. And I'm like, what did you— did you really think you were gonna be married to someone in 50 years and not pass gas in front of them? And I'm like, and look, they're still here. Maybe they'll laugh a little. And I'm like, if they get up and leave 'cause you had beans for dinner, I don't know that this was the keeper. But I think that that kind of model of I have to be perfect, I have to show up as this idealized version of myself, I can't be authentic. And I do think it takes us to that conversation about authenticity, another really overused word these days, but that has so much power in creating healthy relationships.

Yeah.

Because it's— that requires us, even before the relationship, to do a deep dive in who am I, what do I stand for, how do I show up? And people are afraid of that because they were told, maybe in childhood, I show up as my true self, I'm gonna be raged at, I'm gonna be told I'm selfish, Selfish. I'm going to be told I'm ungrateful. They go into a relationship; the first time they show up as their true selves, they're rejected. And so that can really squelch that authentic self, right? But that's what a healthy relationship is: that capacity to feel like you're in something that's not only psychologically safe but balanced. We are very much so still, and I think social media made this worse, in the era of the check the checkmark relationship. You know, if for I think we still have very gendered anticipations around that, whether it's around money or appearance or youth or whatever it may be, intelligence, anything. And instead of these very, very sorts of healthy parameters, and I don't know about you, Joe, but I have a handful of friends who are in fantastic long-term relationships and marriages. And when I look at all of their relationships, and these are people of every age, ethnicity. These are straight couples, these are queer couples, these are couples with money, without money. And you feel that you're in the presence of 2 people who get each other, who, who have each other's backs. It doesn't feel lovey-dovey. I don't feel like I'm in some sort of, you know, sort of fairy tale. I feel like I'm with 2 people where it's just like a big cozy blanket and I just want to stay in their house for forever. And that, and that kind of alchemy, there was often 2 healthy people that entered that relationship.

That's really great.

Yeah.

And that, that feels really good. And there are— and I'll tell you, I think it's important to have models of relationships. Because if everyone you hang around with is completely dysfunctional and talking shit about each other, you know, it's just, yeah, it doesn't help you at all. We need— and look, I think in a lot of ways, you are providing models. Like, I take— like, we have one interview that we did that has over a million views, and I have at least 100 times when someone has sent me a message because I have Genius Recovery. So I'm talking to people that are struggling with addiction all the time. It's just kind of weird how I've— my own recovery has led to all these other things that I do. It makes sense. And I will utilize your interviews. I will say, you need to watch this. And so it's not just— an interview. It's literally a toolkit. It's helping people work through their lives. So what is— if you could wave a magic wand, there's so much you've learned. You've had so many of these conversations. Do you ever get sick of talking about this stuff?

I don't, because, Joe, one of the beauties of being sort of a former academic is you never stop the work. Like, it's all— your head's in the journal articles. You're always reading the new science.

You're—

again, even here we are today at this beautiful seminar on trauma. I get to learn from Gabor all day. I get to learn from Kimberly all day. I get to learn from folks like you about addiction. So it's, it's not just getting your head in the clouds with all the minutiae of the science, but talking to people who have walked the walk. And so every day is a teacher, and it's like this gigantic sculpture. You're always adding more clay to it. You're always flexible and willing to sort of see things in a new way. So I never get tired of it because I have the real privilege of always getting to learn, pushing myself to learn always reading books and always talking to survivors.

Yeah, yeah. And so, so you've learned so much of that. Like, what have you discovered over the last year or so that you're like, oh, this is really valuable, that I think people need to be aware of this? They need to— I'd love to have you share some of those things because you're, you're always on the cutting edge of all of this. I mean, you, you, you— and I mean, I really admire just how much work— and what you deal with is pretty heavy. I mean, you deal with some very difficult situations that I don't know very many people that could unravel some of the stuff that you work with.

Well, I really appreciate that. But again, it feels like a real privilege. I've lived experience in all of this, so I get it, I feel it, and I know how important it is for people to feel seen and not shamed. I think that the piece in this year that has really been illuminating for me, and I was reading in all these sort of complex models, but the simple part of it is anyone who's in a narcissistic relationship, I don't care how mild or severe it is, it is a relational trauma and it is a betrayal trauma. And the only way to treat relational trauma is in relationship. That we— that you are now basically, you are fixing that broken schema of a relationship. And even whether it's in the therapeutic room where you're teaching someone, people show up People care that this can be a healthy space, that the therapist can show up authentically, and then it's about helping that person heal in community. And we have a monthly membership, and what I've seen now—we've had it for over two years—and you need that much time to sort of see changes in trend. What's been remarkable in watching that healing community is watching people who all came in—not everyone didn't come at the same time. Like some people come, drop out, whatever. But is watching people evolve from feeling that they couldn't even get out of bed to becoming the healers themselves. They healed relationally. You see this in the addiction community all the time. We heal relationally, right? That idea that somebody can go off with a book or a podcast and do this themselves is never gonna happen. Or even, I still don't even think therapy is sufficient. There has to be community. We heal in community. And I think that helping people understand that they're not alone. And I have, you know, listen, I have worked with folks who've been in 30, 40, 50-year marriages with narcissistic folks, right? So they raise kids in it, the whole nine yards. And they said, you know what, Dr. Ramani, if I had 5 years, 8 years into this marriage, even before we had kids, 1 or 2 years in, had I read this, I would have gotten out. There was just simply no framework. We had no language, right? And so, and that applies in the world of addiction. Think of how long there was no language. We didn't understand understand this as a disease. We didn't understand how people heal. We didn't understand the intersection of trauma and addiction, right?

Right.

When those— each of those layers of the onion got peeled away, we have had more compassionate conversations. People are getting better treatment. Well, narcissism is about 20 years behind that right now in terms of understanding how that shows up in relationships. And now that people are getting these schemas, they're willing to clock these patterns earlier. And that, plus the relational understanding I think we're actually gonna start seeing people being more discerning in their relationships, maybe sort of capture these things as patterns and start disengaging earlier, giving themselves even permission, not just in intimate relationships, but even in workplace relationships, family relationships, saying, no, this isn't okay. This is one-sided. This is asymmetric. This doesn't make sense. So, but I think the needle's moving, but as all arcs are, they move quite slowly. And so those are the things I've really learned in the last year. So I really am focusing on the community piece of this.

Yeah, no, so, so critical. And I always go back to the saying, you're as sick as your secrets. And so having people to talk to— silent battles are the hardest battles to fight. To try to do this on your own is so difficult. So I absolutely agree. I mean, I would have never had recovery with addiction without—

I don't think anyone would.

Yeah, yeah. And I always say to people, you know, like, even when they talk about 12 steps. It's not an attendance program. No, it's a step program. You go, you go meet other people, you do the steps, that sort of thing. Um, I've read comments where— and I'm so curious because I've never asked you this— where someone would, uh, probably a narcissist on the other side, where you, you know, you are really describing someone, they'll say like, she's a narcissist. They call you a narcissist. Yeah. So how do— like, why— what is— what is— what is What do you think that's about? How do you interpret it?

I mean, listen, if somebody sees themselves in the content, first of all, I applaud them for willing to do that. I think that's an incredibly vulnerable thing to do. However, that vulnerability activated the shame, activated the rage, and they're going to— Joe, I'm going to be very— I am willing to be completely self-effacing in that they see a person who makes her living putting herself in a public forum to teach people about this, and at some level is paying the bills, right? I'll give them that, right? And many— I get that, and it hurts my feelings. I'll be very— I do not read my comments. I would be in a psychiatric hospital if I read my comments. I'm still a very, very sort of—

I have my—

I understand my own neurotic personality structure and my fearfulness and all the things, right?

Yeah.

And so I really would dig in, in my own therapy, say, do I have empathy? And she's like, why are we having this conversation, you have deep empathy. And so it's like, I'm thinking I will even stand in a line when I don't need to stand in line because I don't want anyone to think like she's ever taking advantage. So I know I'm not those.

Oh, that's interesting.

Because entitlement is sort of the trunk of the tree. And so I don't— I never. And so I'm pretty confident that I'm not. In fact, I think if I was narcissistic, my business would have been so much better and so much bigger. But I But you do come against that. And I do think that more than anything is that people are being made uncomfortable about this conversation. And so it's activating shame in them. I also think that it's the nature of online spaces. And so people are on the attack. I'm sure you get all this stuff all the time. And so any of us in this space do.

Yeah, no, you just like what— just hearing you say that makes me realize why the heck Are we so sensitive where I could read like a book review where you know there's like one there was one that I read recently that was a negative review and right before and right after is like this is the best book I've ever read and I'm like how is it you know but why do I get so bothered by that why do we get so why are we so sensitive to it and how do we not be bothered by it or maybe that's part of just being a really cool human like yeah you're sensitive you you you know you want you don't want people to call you something that you don't— that you're not, or you don't feel that you're not. I mean, I, you know, how— I guess, how do we become less bothered by it?

I don't know that we do become less bothered by it. In fact, maybe we don't. I don't know that we do. I, I think that part of the burden of empathy is that that also would, would sensitize us to that kind of discourse. And it will. And, and I'm going to be frank with you, I think that anyone who's had a history of trauma and anyone who's had— or a history history of these kinds of narcissistic betraying relationships, there is such, again, a core schema of what's wrong with me? What did I do wrong? Do I deserve this? Am I the bad one? Since that's such a central schema, that kind of commentary is going to bounce off of that. And instead of like, I'm absolutely not that, is that there's a plausibility to it. And then it causes this sort of grappling. And I don't think grappling's ever a bad thing. That creates the core of Accountability, which is another core element of a healthy relationship. But I don't need to be sitting there all day, and I'm very much. I again, one of the things the way I opened up this book was a story of me as a child, right? And you know, with the purple dress and not willing to you know sort of put myself out there more than anything because I didn't want to be made fun of. That was the driver that day. I did not want people to see me and make fun of me. And even to this day, I I still think what the hell are you doing? Because there was no way to do this anonymously. I could have tried and then people are like, what the heck is this? In academia, in some ways you can be very anonymous. For decades of my career, you really are. In fact, the way our work is reviewed in academia is it is done anonymously. They remove our names from the manuscripts so there's no bias in the peer review process. There's almost a built-in anonymity in the scholarly process. So if people say it, they say it. And I'm thinking if they— again, I'm not reading the comments, so I'm not seeing it. But if it did lead the person to grapple with, well, maybe I am the narcissistic one, maybe then the content was worth it.

So I want to ask you a few questions. And I want you to imagine, can you imagine a world I do. In which you go to work every day and you trust everybody around you to do what they need to do, and everybody around you trusts you to do what you need to do, and where nobody is stressed out because they don't have the freedom to do things their own way. Can you imagine that? Can you imagine a world Where you go home and your spouse is not bitching at you for doing something that you're not good at doing. Your spouse understands you and doesn't expect you to be anything other than who you are. You don't have to change to make this person understand and respect you. And imagine even your kids do that— understand and respect you for who you are. That's That's the real trick. Imagine that when you go home— how many of you have kids? Okay, imagine going home and they're not angry, upset, and stressed by what happened at school today. That they all were being treated as the unique, wonderful individuals you know they are. And they're being the options— given the options you know they need. And you know the school respects them for who they are and is nurturing them and is providing opportunities for them to grow and to shine and to use their abilities. Can you imagine that? Every day, every kid coming home from school that way? And can you imagine a world where you get it that all your kids aren't alike? I'm probably not much like you sometimes either. Where did they come from? How did they get this way? Why do they do that? What makes them tick? And you can answer that, and you can truly say, I not only love you, but you can truly add to that, I get you, I understand you, and I will help you thrive by being you. This room of people can imagine that easier than most because you're geniuses enough to be here. Imagine that you are in a health clinic and you're seeking assistance, and they don't treat you like number 246. 6. They understand you. They know what you need. And when they put you in the hospital for some treatment, there's a note that says, don't worry about it, he's non-compliant. That's okay. It's a good thing. He's gonna trust his own instincts, and he's gonna get better because of it. Can you imagine that?

Yeah.

First thing I always tell the doctors when I go to a new— I I'm now at Mayo's. And I said, when I got my concierge Mayo person, I said, the first thing I want you to do, in big bold letters right across my thing, non-compliant patient. I said, I want it known. I don't wanna have to discuss that with every doctor I go to. I'm totally non-compliant. I always will be. I always have been. And at 77 years old, I can prove it works. If you're a young dude, they won't believe you. So imagine they don't treat your ACL the same way they treat other people's ACL. One person's ACL operation is not the same as another's. And it's because the rehab is different. I've had 2 of those ACL/MCL surgeries. Surgeries, I'm non-compliant to the fact that I will tell the physical therapists what they need to know about what I will and won't do, and then they need to figure out how to make that work. Can you imagine that what they feel about that? But it works. I'm walking. I don't have a cane, right? We have to imagine. That, because for many people that's not reality. The health system doesn't individualize for us. The educational system ignores individual needs. Relationship advisors can tell you what you should be doing for the affect, but they have no idea who you are really, or what might be the underlying conflicts cognitively. But I tell you what, you don't really need to imagine this for much longer. My life goal has been that you don't have to imagine that happening. And I have been creating products and services so I can go, check, don't need to imagine that. Got it. Check, that's available. Check, I can prove it. Check. No one has to live through that anymore. That's what I'm doing. I'm checking those off. So we now have a career program, AppCareers, and I'm just gonna boldly tell you it's the best product I ever created, even better than the Colby A. And, and that's been my baby, but this is better than that because what it does is is inside this software program, you answer questions that tell us what freedom do you need at work. Doesn't tell you about relationships, doesn't tell— it's not as holistic. But what freedom do you need at work? What would stress you out if you didn't have that freedom? And from that information, plus what is it you love to do? What kind of career would you like? What are you motivated to do? We have a very complex algorithm. It only took me 3 years to develop that then tells you what out of over 1,200 careers would drive you crazy. First thing I love to tell people is don't ever do this. And then it tells you here are 20 things you would be great doing that you've already identified you'd be interested in. And here are 20 things You would be great at doing that. Doesn't appear you've even thought of. That's that's where my heart I get really excited when it opens doors. I want you guys. I want to figure out who in this room is going to help take that to the world, so we don't have little kids saying I don't you know I want to I want to be a rocket scientist. I want to be a fireman. We have them starting to figure out who. They are. We don't have kids going through college changing their majors three times, ending up with huge debts and no career options that fit what they did. That is the worst economic mess to pay for something that's not useful, that's inappropriate. Who would go buy clothes that don't fit, especially fur coats? I mean, education's not. Cheap. You're going to Saks and buying the top of the line at these universities and they don't fit, and you keep doing that for 4 years. Shame on us. That's stupid. I'm looking for you geniuses to help here. We need to take this to the world. As Joe can tell you, I am the world's worst marketer, and all he's tried to do to help me has never made Kathy a good marketer. I'm terrible. I've got the solution for all these things and you don't even know about most of them. Do you know— are you married?

No.

Are you married?

No.

I knew that when I asked you.

Non-compliant.

Troy, are you married? We're together, but— Has your wife taken—

That's not weird.

Okay, Troy, has your wife taken the Kolbe?

No.

Okay, your wife needs to take the Kolbe for 2 reasons. She deserves to know what you know about yourself. She deserves to know what freedom she needs, what she's good at, what her strengths are. Probably you're giving her all that— what's your MO?

Pardon me?

What's your Kolbe MO? I haven't taken the Kolbe. Oh, well, what are we doing here? All right, you need to take the Colby, and then you need— at the same time, not later— you need your wife to take the Colby. And then you don't have to imagine what you're doing to each other in terms of arguing about the way to do stuff. You know, who should, who should take the garbage out? It's not always the guy. Guys, I'm giving you a heads up here, you might get a reason to not have to take the garbage out. That should be worth the price of a Colby. Once you know both of your MOs, I didn't feel that was enough. So what we did, put together this thing called the A to A. And it says— are you married, Peter?

Yeah.

Has your wife taken the Index?

Yes, she came back in transition.

Now we gotta talk. When your wife is in transition, that means you're asking her to do all the wrong things, or the world is. You have a bunch of kids? Yes. That's the reason. Kids will do that to you. You don't get the freedom to be yourself and your mom, but dads can help relieve some of that. Oh, I could do a whole counseling session here. So I'm gonna start a podcast Just so I can do that for people. I'll tell you the trick here is when you get the A to A for a husband and wife or siblings or any other two people, the A to A will tell you where your stress points are between you and what you can do about it. There's a little box, and I write every word of all of these reports. There's a little box I put there that says, don't even think about And then I fill it in according to your issues. There's some things you just need to— don't even think about doing it. It's not gonna happen, it won't be good. In fact, it'll be ugly. So for each of these things, when we look at schools— I know I'm past my 10 minutes almost, aren't I?

Yes, you are.

Shall I stop right here? No, just wrap up. I will just take a few more seconds. Should I keep going?

Yeah.

Absolutely. With your kind permission. I have tried for 35 years to get my local school district to hear me, that there is no excuse for not meeting the needs, individualized conative needs of every student. And they've said, we never heard of conation, there's no research behind it, no. And I've said, do it! And they said, no. I've said it, I've said it. There's a failing school in my local district, a high school that will be taken over by the state in 1 year if they don't turn it around. So who do you think they've come to? That school will not fail. They are putting all their leadership team through Kolbe training. I have taught them to use the Kolbe interview process. I have taught them to honor everybody's MO, not just have follow-through teachers. I have taught them that they need to look at the cognitive needs of every single student. That school will not fail. We don't need to imagine it. We will do it. So for every one of those things I've asked you to imagine, we're doing it. We're finding solutions. But I cannot do it alone, and that's why I'm here, is because I know some of you guys. I know the power you have. I know how well you market and communicate. Make this something you use. Use it. Make this something you use. Use it in your communities and help me help more people.

Business that is currently making how much money a year? What's your—

Like $50 million.

$50 million a year. Okay. And you fly private and you have multiple houses. You have a lot of external forms of success that people will view and say you have a lot, you own a lot of stuff, you make a lot of money, you are by all standards wealthy, right?

Yeah.

So how do you deal with the envy and the criticism or the, you know, jealousy? Because the way I view jealousy is jealousy is wanting what someone else has. Envy is wanting what someone else has and not wanting them to have it. You know, there's a level of kind of bitterness attached to it. So how, how do you deal with that?

I, I really have to credit a lot of how I feel about this to Dan Sullivan, like the way he taught me to think about just wanting what you want and never apologizing for what you have and never like having to explain your success to anyone. Like there's a few things on a few different podcasts that he has said about that that just really changed the way I own that success.

Right.

And I never apologize for it. And, um, I— if people hate me for something that's true about me, I don't really have a hard time with it. Like, somebody wrote an article about me and how it's so irresponsible of me to tell people that they can make a million dollars, that they can make a lot of money. As a life coach because most people can't, which I just disagree. I disagree that most people can't. I think people can, and I've had hundreds of people that have made so much money as a life coach. And so if someone hates me for something like that, I'm like, keep hating, right? If someone hates me for something that's untrue, that really bothers me. Like if they don't understand something or they're misreading me. So I love money. And I love the ability that we have in this country to make money. I feel a responsibility to every woman that went before me to cash in as hard as I can on the opportunity that they created for me.

Right.

And I will never feel bad about that, no matter how much I'm hated for it. And I will never stop talking about it. I had a, I had a moment where Amy Porterfield, who's one of She's an online marketer influencer.

She's a friend of mine. Yeah, she'll be at the event this week.

Oh, awesome. Yeah, great. Yeah, but I'm interviewing—

yeah, people may not know where I'm interviewing.

Amy Portefeuille is amazing. And on a podcast, she talked about making $1 million in a year. And I was like, I will never forget that. I was like, wait, what? We're allowed to do that? We're allowed to make $1 million in a year? What? And just her saying that, like the audacity of her to say that she's nothing like, you know, me, like, talking about all my things. But she just happened to mention that, and it completely changed my life. And so I always encourage all women to talk about how much money they're making to inspire other women to make as much as they can, right?

Well, honestly, I think one of the biggest challenges that people have with taking the advice that someone Suspenses is they see— let's take like Dave, who's sitting over here, teaches a lot of stuff related to health and, you know, energy, fitness, what brain— you know, your brain operating functionally. People are like, well, that could work for other people, that could work for Dave, or that could work for Brooke, that could work for these other people. The biggest challenge is, can it work for me? In the moment someone believes, oh, it can actually work for me, that's When you've now opened yourself up to have that conversation.

I couldn't agree more.

I got to jump in here with some important stuff. All right. If you're a woman or a man and you start talking about how much you make and all of that—

$50 million.

If you look at what Robert Greene teaches in the Laws of Human Consciousness, and he's one of the great modern masters from my perspective, that does increase the likelihood of envy and greed, which are the hardest to spot. And what that does is that attracts narcissists and people who will appear to be your friends and prey on you.

I've dated many of them. Yeah, we've had discussions. They've destroyed my businesses. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

It happens especially to successful women, right? Because there's some little programming that women get that's like, I need to operate operational man to help me support myself. And the kind of person who's attracted to, oh, look, look, money, fame, power, they're more likely to be a person who has really bad trauma, bad programming, than not. So it feels like when you're small, you want to look big. When you're big, you want to look small.

Right. Yeah.

Well, just a counterpoint there, because you don't want to attract the wrong people into your field because they will spend all of that money and tell you they're not doing it. I have so many have that happen.

Interesting. Anyway, so what do you think the solution is?

What do you think the solution is? I think that you want to be in a room full of people who are the right people to share it with.

I agree. I share it with everyone.

That's why I go to Genius Network.

Yeah, no, no, and, um, always find out what's in it for them. And share it with your coach.

Well, no, but I'll tell you, look, in the— yeah, I mean, thank you for that. Product placement, product placement. And the point is, and the point always is—

No, no.

Well, here's the thing though. Like, so I wrote my book, which would not even have existed if it wasn't for Dale Carnegie's book, How to Win Friends and Influence People. Yes, yes. Because it's a great title and most people want to win friends and they want to influence people. But what I've learned is that it's not about winning friends and influencing people, it's about winning the right friends and influencing the right people. Yes. That whole Zig Ziglar line, you can get anything you want in life if you help enough other people get what they want. My friend Martin Howie said, well, that's not necessarily true because you can help a lot of people get what they want that won't do a damn thing for you and many will abuse you, take advantage of you, and steal from you. So it really is about selecting what I call TAME. You put your time, attention, money, effort, and energy, or it could be tame with 2 Es. But time, attention, money, effort, and energy are things that we can spend. apply that to the right person in the right way to best leverage yourself. And I mean, you certainly have really good business skills, good marketing skills.

Can I just tell you though, I was kind of having a little out-of-body experience driving over here because I was trying to remember where I was when I was walking on a trail and my kids were like— I think they were in daycare and I was listening to I Love Marketing. with you and Dean. Like, that was before there were any marketing podcasts. You guys were like the OGs of all of that. And like learning what a target market was and like learning, like learning the 9-word email, like all those basics. And it's like so surreal now. I'm like, I'm like going to Joe Polish's house. Like, you taught me so much like from the very beginning. And it's so interesting how it's like a full circle moment, right?

Full circle.

And I hear so many people say that to me. all the time, but it's fun to have one of those experiences myself, right? Yeah, so I mean, I've studied all the things.

Okay, let's talk about this then, because oftentimes it's really cool if you stick with it. If you just stay with stuff, you will eventually meet the people in it, I believe. Like, I do, you know, one of my favorite lines, which I put in my book, I didn't come up with it, this is a quote from years ago, guy named William Miser. He said, be nice to the people you meet on the way up. They're the same people you meet on the way down.

Right.

And so part of it is you will— I tell this to young people all the time, you know, don't be an asshole. You're gonna run into the same people, believe it or not. If you leave scorched earth 5 years, 10 years, 15, 20 years, you may come across those people and they may dislike They may dislike you and they may have a grudge and don't give them a reason to do that intentionally. I mean, like, you can be successful and some people, like you said, they'll just despise you from the fact that, you know, because a lot of criticism is just self-hatred turned outward. I mean, it really is.

That's really interesting the way you said that. That's good.

Yeah, and some people that want to give you advice, they're really looking out for you, but, you know, it's one of those things. You will run into the same people. And I think it's awesome that, you know, like all the people that I used to study. I mean, Jay Abraham just interviewed me for my book 3 days ago and just said the most edifying things because he read my whole book.

Yeah, that's cool.

And, you know, and Jay, I was like, Jay, you know, in 1992, I was listening to your cassette tapes that you did, your Australian boot camp, and they were instrumental in helping understand lifetime value of a customer.

Yes.

You know, and it's so cool that, you know, many years later you don't realize the domino effect of putting knowledge out. So what I said to Jay, who's ADD off the charts, I mean, Jay's like, you know, he's— but he's a cool dude, he's a nice guy. And I said, you know, just take in how much impact putting your ideas out into the world that helps small business owners, how much it does. And I would say the same thing about you. Because, you know, when you have transformed this pain into productivity, you've actually learned, you know, I hate myself and I love myself. I often sit and think, yeah, you know, what a waste of really years of marketing skills that I've worked so hard. I mean, I've put over $2 million into my own marketing education. I've read over 1,000 books. I know something about addiction. I've spent a lot of time and a lot of money and a lot of effort into my addiction recovery. I had a lot of relapses along the way. I had a lot of crazy-making along the way. I was in horrible places. I was suicidal many times in my life. And it's like I learned about marketing, which I love.

Yeah.

What I don't love about it is so many of the scoundrels that use it in unethical ways. But I love the fact that you can do— but I was like, man, you know, to know things that actually help people with addiction recovery, but to not use those skills to put it out into the world, I feel really good about that. And so I think it's amazing that not only the transformation you made in your own life, but you've actually built a business around this that helps other people do that thing.

Yeah.

I mean, so it's one thing to discover a recipe. It's another to teach the recipe to other people. It's another to teach recipe to other people so they can teach the recipe to other people. And now you are every single day Your work impacts God knows how many countless thousands of people as a result of you figuring this thing out.

Yeah, I mean, figuring out like my own work and my own model and how to help clients, but then also doing the talent stack of learning marketing. Yeah. And being able— because I think there's a lot of people with way amazing ideas, probably way better than mine, that don't ever learn marketing, right? That nobody ever hears about their great ideas. And so I think those 2 skills together is what has like really helped propel me. And I'm still a student.

Can I piece— can I just say something to what you just said? Because I often say that too. Where I don't know exactly how you said it. But you're like, there's some people out there that have skills. Some that— did you say maybe greater than mine?

Yeah. Better than mine. Material that's better than mine. Yeah.

But they never turned it into a $50 million a year business because they haven't put together that marketing. And that's what the whole thing is where there's There is no relationship between being good and getting paid. And that's the painful realization that when I was a dead broke carpet cleaner—

Unless you're good at marketing.

Exactly. Well, that's the finish. There's no relationship between being good and getting paid, but there's a huge relationship between being good, being a good marketer and getting paid.

Yes, that is so right.

So the thing is, is when I was a dead broke carpet cleaner, I realized like, man, I am so pissed. I don't understand how this other person is making money. They suck. They're unethical. They do bait-and-switch advertising. I'm over here working my ass off doing good work. I actually care about people. Why is my business not working? What is it that I don't know that I don't know?

Yeah.

And that— when I had this insight that, you know, the problem was, you know, not the business I was in. The problem was I didn't know how to do the business. My first mentor actually helped me understand that.

Yeah, the story. I remember.

Yeah, the jet ski story. I won't go into that one here. But the thing is, when I was aware of that, I started looking at my business. It's now a lab rat. I'm not going to get out of this business until I figure out how to make it work. And I need to learn fundamental business. And that's what put me on my path to where I eventually learned marketing. And I actually learned that you can persuade people with words, that you have to, you know. And so what I always— my friend, the late Dave Kekich, said, enthusiasm covers many deficiencies, which I think is a great line. So true. Because when you're first starting out and you don't know what the hell you're doing, at least don't be a jerk. Be enthusiastic about ideas. Be enthusiastic about learning. Be a useful, grateful, helpful person as you discover and learn these skills versus someone that just has a terrible attitude, is just not pleasant to be around. You know, I have a chapter in my book, my book again, you know—

What's in it for them?

At this point I gotta make a joke about it every time I mention it. But, you know, be the type of person you always want to answer the phone for. And I say that so much of it is energy. And I will tell people, on the next 5 or 10 that contact you, because a lot of young people don't even use phones to make phone calls anymore.

Right, right.

You know, it's all messaging.

I said, the next messages, social media, texts, phone calls, whatever that come through, gauge the feeling when you're looking at that phone and saying, okay, do you feel woo when someone's calling, or do you feel ah? And whatever you're feeling, there's a reason you're feeling that, because there's something that that person represents. That excites you and makes you want to connect with them. And the people that drive you crazy—

That's so good. Yeah, it's a great way to measure it.

Yeah. And you can start measuring all the relationships.

Like, even a text I get, totally, you have a feeling. It's either a dopamine hit or it's not.

Or it's like, yeah, it's like, oh my God. And now I will have to caution people and say, if you owe them money and you're a jerk, then they're not the Right, right, right. So, the energy goes both ways. And so, and one of the things I say is we all want something. But make sure that if you— whatever you want, make sure that your give is equal to or greater than your want. Because those are the people you want to hang out with. Those are the people that really— where they show up as a contributor and expander, not a contractor. And so anyway, but so the point how— and what I'm realizing is What's interesting, Brooke, is that I'm going to be doing— we're recording this at a time where, you know, in a few days I'm going to be interviewing you in front of all of my Genius Network members at Genius Network, the annual event, which is going to be more focused on the business aspects of what you're doing.

Right.

But I wanted to like really dig in a little bit into your life and how you've done this. So what I'd like to do is I could— man, I can see this as being one of these, you know, 3 to 4 hour interviews.

Right.

He just went, you know, everywhere. For the people that are out there watching that are business owners and they are— many aren't good marketers, but they're studying it, they're learning it, they respect it, they understand the value.

From CK Lynn, how do we go from self-emotional awareness to better connecting with VIP prospects?

Hmm. Okay, it's, it's the same answer to connecting with anybody else.

Okay.

Okay. Um, did you, did you guys just hear that?

Yeah, but I think we can keep going. Yeah, I don't know why that stopped, but keep going.

Okay. Um, read the question again. I'm sorry, I distracted myself when that—

Okay, how do we go from Self-emotional awareness, better connecting with VIP prospects.

Okay. So, um, not so much better connecting, but connecting more deeply. All right. And I know it's a nuanced difference, but there's a difference. What I would say is the value of self-awareness is that when you understand your emotions, that puts you in the prime position to be able to understand others. Right. So if you can reach for understanding where they're coming from— so, so, so here's an example from empathy. All right. Empathy is the ability to understand someone from a feeling perspective, even if you haven't experienced that situation. So I've never lost a child. Thank you, God. But, but if you're empathic towards someone who lost a child, They will feel that from you, and that, that will create the connection. It will deepen the connection, which is different than sympathy or feeling sorry for them. So I would go with understanding your emotions allows you to then be able to read others accurately because your stuff is not getting in the way and you're not confusing your anger perhaps with theirs. Or name any other emotion. I hope that answers your question.

Thank you. Uh, Shua, a frequent, uh, caller to this program, he asked, your body tells you what emotions you have been suppressing. How do you tune into your body to reveal these suppressed emotions and deal with them more effectively? Great question.

Okay, easy, easy. Meditation, deep breathing. Here's what's so great, and, and the West is finally catching up with the East. Only within the last— since the AMA came along, right, maybe 100 years— did you ever hear people refer to mind and body as if they're two, right? The, the base of this The base of the brain is attached to the top of the spinal cord. They're constantly going back and forth.

Mm-hmm.

And the mind logic can allow us to be in denial, to fool us, to fool ourselves. The body does not lie. So if we think we're doing great and we have an ulcer, I got a newsflash for you. You ain't doing as great as you think. You're just in denial. And that's a That's just one very, very simple example. So if you get in touch with your body and you're aware of where you feel— all right, so we talked about controlling our emotions, but before we can control our emotions, what I do with clients is you actually— you know, there's an expression, when you're going through hell, what do you do? You keep on going. You have to actually—

Have fun.

You have to actually go into the emotion. into it, just like a muscle, right? You have to go into it, you have to massage it, and then counterintuitively it dissipates, it releases its energy. So get in touch with your body and that will help you. Hopefully that answered your question.

Thank you, Dr. Penny. And I, I have a comment and would love to get you to elaborate a little bit more. I, I noted something you said that really went to my heart. It resonated with me. Everything you said, but one in particular.

Okay.

So I'm in an educational program at Emory University in Atlanta, and there's 30 others in my cohort. They are pastors of different denominations. Okay, so it's not like 30 people from the same denomination. It's a, it's a Doctor of Ministry program. So we're all there, you know, as leaders in churches. And I love it. Dr. Pattie, and I love the fact that there's 30 different perspectives.

Mm-hmm.

You said this, listen with an ear of curiosity. You don't be attached to an outcome. And I just, I kind of picture being in, in this situation with my cohort. If I went in and I wasn't listening with an ear of curiosity, wanting to get their perspective, wanting to understand more from where they're coming from, what they believe, why they believe, Which I appreciate. And, and if I had— if I was already attached to an outcome, this experience wouldn't be nearly what it is for me, which is wonderful. But I love that. Is there anything you— any shine you want to add to that concept?

So full disclosure, Timothy and I had spoken about this in Phoenix, and we had an awesome conversation. You probably don't even remember, right? I thought it was a great conversation.

It was so good.

It was so interesting.

Um, I think the only thing I can add, and, and this is where religion is fascinating, because this is— now, when someone believes a truth in religion, it is a truth. But if you think about all the other ministers there, it's subjective. It's based upon your life experience and your perspective, right? So the only thing I would add to what you just said is If you look at the exercise and, and the education that you're going through, as I, I actually have experienced what you've told me, as it's you're seeking enlightenment.

Yeah, I like that.

And enlightenment means you're— so much of what we're learning today is we have to unlearn so that we can learn.

Hmm.

Right? Because if we don't unlearn, we're attached to the outcome. And it's so— enlightenment, it never means you're wrong. It just means you're growing and you're evolving, you know. And that's why I find religion so fascinating, because who can say who's right? Let's have the debate. Let's have the conversation. It's fascinating. And people are— not only are they cognitively smart about it, they can quote Bible verse, right? But they're passionate about it. So when you marry cognitive with emotion, It's awesome. And, and Timothy, I have to say this, and I can't believe I didn't say this earlier, and I feel badly. That's what empathy is supposed to do. It's supposed to touch your heart.

Hmm.

So to answer the other person's question about the deeper relationship, touch their heart. Communicate, make a connection, touch the heart. You'll know it when someone's done it.

You know, what I'm finding is the more I learn about what others believe, their perspective, the more I understand what I believe, what my perspective is. So it's— I like that, don't be attached to a particular outcome. I love that. Thank you. There's a couple more questions here from— let's see here. Um, Ivan, you know, Ivan's out there. Ivan said something kind of funny earlier. Ivan Gonik. Are you there?

I am, Timothy.

So here's Ivan. Uh, I don't know if you know Dean. Do you know Ivan? He's actually starting an I Love Marketing meetup here in South Carolina. Yes, this guy's like gonna, gonna be like, like the guy in South Carolina. First of all, give us a detail or two about that, Ivan. And then you wrote something earlier. I don't know if you want to—

Yeah, sure. Okay. Yeah, so I've known Joe for a few years now, and he's, uh, consistently asked me, when are you going to start your meetup where you're at? And I'm not there yet. So, but we are expanding offices and we moved into a new state. And I said, all right, I got some breathing room now, let's do it. And I'll do it here in my hometown of Greenville, South Carolina. So our first meetup is going to be January 12th at 6:00 PM. So if you guys are in the South Carolina area and the upstate area and want to swing by.

I love that.

Yes.

So, so that's an entirely in-person meetup, is that right, Ivan?

Correct. I might— I'm debating webcasting it, but I want to see how the first one goes. So yeah, yeah, in person's a smaller audience before it's out on the internet and everyone can see it.

Well, Ivan, good for you. Congratulations for taking that step. That's terrific. Now Ivan's in our ELF coaching program, by the way. Professor, you probably recognize Ivan. He's a very smart guy. So anyway, Ivan, did you have a question or a comment?

Oh, it's kind of a comment going back to what was being discussed. It reminds me what you were saying, Doctor, about the discussion in front of a mirror. I remember as a kid I'd read, you know, nonfiction books, but I'd read them out loud and I was there. Like, I could see and smell almost sometimes, and it just, you know, just immersed in that world. And I think that as, as children we have that innate ability, and I think maybe we lose it through conditioning, or maybe we'd call it deconditioning of our natural self as adults. But it's kind of struck me because I was like, I remember when I was younger, I'd read a nonfiction book and I was there. I mean, I remember reading Hardy Boys and I literally felt like I was right when they were, you know, riding a boat or something like that, you know.

That's funny.

That's great. That's because we're taught to devalue our emotion and to let logic and the rational reign supreme, right? So logic is supposed to rule the day and don't be emotional. That's what happens.

Yeah, I got 3 dogs. I'm emotional.

I haven't read your book still. It was one of my promises as soon as it gets published. My English is not the best, but here I go. So the question that I have for for you and the group is now I'm becoming a little bit resent by the fact that I connect a lot of people. I love to connect people, and I think that's a great also asset, but sometimes I feel that I don't get it in return, you know? So I feel the message of a giver and a taker, and I feel that I want to balance that aspect in my life. So the other point is I want to start giving some or creating some masterminds or community around books, around knowledge, around all of that. And I don't know if the skin in the game or the payment is a way to getting more commitment for each person. This is the question that I have for you. And a lot of gratefulness.

Yeah, yeah, no worries. And it looks like you're in the gym working out.

Yeah, which is good. Good. Before sauna. Yeah.

Yeah. And I think before— good. Yeah, that's awesome. If I can get done enough tonight, I'll be going to a sauna and a cold plunge later. So I think you said getting resentful when you're offering things to people and then they don't. Yeah. So here's the thing, and I write about this in my book, that if you're a giver, you're going to get taken advantage of. There's no ifs, ands, or buts about it. It's not— it's just that's— that's— you're a target if you're genuinely an empathetic giver. Now, when you— when someone says giving value, though, you need to make sure that you're dealing with people at the level at which they respond. I also have a section in the book where I talk about how to deal with intimidation, because not everybody responds well to kindness and being nice. Some people, like, you got to talk shit to them. Some people, they, they're not going to hang out with someone that's not kind of like a bully. And so you have to pick and choose, uh, if you want to exhibit, or if it's— if it's within your being to uh, utilize the, the behaviors needed to influence certain people. So I want people that are ELF— easy, lucrative, and fun. And if what I used to do— and believe me, I've been very annoyed and I've had to go through a lot of resentments in my life where I felt like I just bent over backwards to help someone, and I have been massively betrayed by people that I spent years helping. That literally costs so much money, anguish, angst. I mean, I was raped and molested as a kid. I kind of get the predator thing of people hurting you. So, you know, it happens in business, it happens in life. You know, most people are going to get their heart broken, probably not just once, but many different ways. The key, though, is to really do some inner reflective work and say, what am I doing that's leaving the door open? And how can I better boundary myself? And so what I used to do is look for red flags. And then my friend, you know, Patrick Gentempo, he gave me this, you know, just a simple way— look for the yellow flags. And I used to ignore the red flags, but I didn't even notice the yellow flags. And so by going through it, it gives you an opportunity to develop your spidey senses. And I— it's the lifeguard analogy— is throw out a life jacket to people drowning that are swimming towards you. Oftentimes we want to pursue people that are rejecting us, and you see it happen in the dynamics of dating, where if someone pays no attention to you, you want their attention. It's that little kid in us that, please validate me, please, you know, give me attention. And oftentimes we are wasting our time, attention, money, effort, and energy that are not reciprocal people. They're not worthy of it. Other times, we're going into a situation with an agenda, and we have taker energy, and it drives people away. So that's something you really have to connect with yourself. And if you are creating value, and you can prove it, and you can validate it, I mean, Dean Jackson talks about this quite a bit, is, you know, oftentimes, if you want an opportunity, Say, look, I'm going to produce this result for you. And if I do, will you pay for it? Yes or no? And, and if they will say, okay, I'm just gonna, I'm just gonna give it to you for free, but you're gonna pay me. Um, you know, because people are less attached to future money than they are to, you know, money right now. And that's what, you know, Dean actually goes right into that. The other times you just need a more compelling offer. You know, Dean Jackson has that line where he says, a compelling offer is 10 times more powerful than a convincing argument. So if we have to convince people to give us money, convince people to do stuff, and oftentimes when we're selling, we are doing that, but really try to think about what's the headline? What do I need to say? What's the offer? And how do I bring people in? So it's, you know, it's, it's this whole notion of, you know, more cheese, less whiskers, you know, the prime directive of a cat is to get cheese, avoid mice. And so, you know, Dean has this whole way that he— Other way around. Oh, I'm sorry. What did I say? The prime directive of a mouth. Oh, I said prime directive of a cat. Sorry, sorry. Yes, prime direct— that's what happens when I'm trying to teach deep shit here. But, uh, um, yeah, so, you know, the thing is, is, um, here's the last thing I'll say on this, Dan. Uh, read my book because my book actually goes through how to do this stuff. But I will say that this is unfortunate that this exists. But whoever cares the least controls the relationship.

Whoever cares the least.

Whoever cares the least controls the relationship in a negotiation, unless you're dealing with someone that cares about you and you care about them, and there's real rapport built in and they wanna see you win and they don't wanna see you lose. And when you're dealing with real givers and people you have rapport with, you don't need to play those games. But unfortunately, we often don't have enough rapport with people and we have to play those stupid games. And you can decide that I don't even want to play that game, so I'm not even going to enter this game. But a lot of times, you know, it's the— if you really are desperate, they smell it and the takers will take advantage of it. And I do talk about that in my book because it's a very— it's a tightrope. It's a dance you have to learn how to play. But yeah, I hope that helps. And if you create value in the world, Use all of the negative experiences, just the raw material you need to figure out how to do it better. We need that shit. We need the obstacle course. You're in the gym right now straining your muscles so that they can grow. The same shit happens with relationships. You got to do the reps. If you don't do the reps and you don't get beat up, you don't have people take advantage, you're not gonna— all you're doing is practicing for the bigger game in life.

Thanks, thanks, Joe. I love it. I also want to know if there is going to be a course getting deep into the, into the book, like a platform where we can do exercises and put it together.

I'm working on a— I'm working on a workbook right now. Where the hell did I put it? It's like around here somewhere. Anyway, but I have a little workbook that we're probably going to put out that, you know, is this going to be a book like this that the—

Okay, I hope you found that video awesome and useful. So if you want to get a free copy of my book, I want you to click here. And if you wanna watch some more videos that'll be useful and awesome, click here. Go ahead. They're over here. Do it now. Come on. Thank you.

Watch 'em.