What Is Real News? Joe Polish And Dean Jackson Reveal The Twist Of Media - I Love Marketing With Joe Polish And Dean Jackson - Episode #163

I'm dean jackson, he's joe polish, and this is the I love marketing podcast. Hey everybody, it's Dean Jackson and Joe Polish. Joe Polish, hot off.

What do you think of when you hear that, when you hear that name?

Dean, I think I'm excited to talk to you. It gets me excited to talk. And I especially want to hear about the all weekend birthday celebration that you just had for me.

So it was, you know, I don't, I have no idea. You know, the most that I did for your birthday was at the 25k meeting. I recorded a video for you and people saying happy Birthday. And then. But you know, I mean, I've been, I've been traveling like a lot. You know, I went, I was in New York for five days with, with my buddy Brendan Bouchard and we went to dinner at Arianna Huffington's house and I had lunch with Seth Godin and a bunch of.

It was good.

It was good. Yeah. I mean I had Jeff Madoff there. Latham Thomas, who has mamaglow.com, jeff Madoff does all the Victoria's Secret commercials. Scott Hoffman was with us. Aishita, who is one of Seth's friends, at how Seth ended up coming to lunch. And you know, there was a two day Arianna Huffington third metric event, you know, based on her book Thrive, which we've already discussed many times about the marketing we did for it. And so after that event it ended, we went to dinner at Ariana's home, which was really cool, had some really great discussions. And then while I was at the event, a lady named Gri, she, you know, who I've met before through Brendan, was doing a woman's business conference and she asked me if I could show up and speak the next day. And I was already like really tired and stuff, but she's really cool and so I agreed. And so I took Aishita, took Latham, Jeff and Scott, you know, came with me to this event. So I got up and babbled for a while and then brought them all up on stage and the audience of mostly women, which is always a good reason for me to just agree to speak at something just to do it and be nice. We all got up and was answering questions and talked about marketing and building a business and all that sort of stuff and it was cool. But at the event met a lot of cool people. Julianne Moore, the actress, she was signing her books in the green room and I was backstage and I read. Yeah. At Ariana's event, yeah, there's, you know, my Buddy Mark. Mark Hyman was there. You know, of course, he's awesome. And I interviewed him on video for, you know, during one of the, you know, Huffington Post had their video crew there. And so me and Brendan were interviewing people. And Julianne Morris, she was signing all these children's books. And so I basically, you know, read her entire children's book while I was there. You know, it didn't take long. It took a few minutes, but that was, that was cool. She was really nice. And. Oh, boy, you know, Alana Morissette was. And Katie Couric and Adam Grant, who I'm going to be doing an interview with. We'll loop you into this if we can make the dates work with all of us. But he wrote a really great book called Give and Take, which I highly recommend people read about. Givers and takers and matchers is what he calls them. The three different types of people in the world. Some are givers, some are takers, and some are matchers, which are like people that will do things for others. If it's like a quid pro quo sort of thing. Yeah, yeah. There's a really good book. I mean, I've actually been listening to it on audio. I'm. I'm, you know, if you bought. If you bought it on CD or get it on Audible, there's like six tracks that are, you know, over an hour long. And I am on. I'm almost done with number five. So I'm more than, you know, 85% done with it. And I told Adam that we'll do an interview after, you know, I'm done with that. And so, yeah, and just met some fascinating, fascinating people during that trip. And then I came back into town for literally a day and then found out that our buddy ron Zeller, who's 81 years old, and we just put the episode of my interview with him up on. I love marketing.

Go and do that.

Yeah. So here's what's interesting, which I'll tell our I love marketing listeners. You know, a lot of people are thanking us for this, where they're, you know, they make comments saying, you know, I'm really glad you guys put things up on the site other than just marketing, because there's obviously more to running a business and a life than just marketing. Although we happen to love marketing. We want to put those things out there because I really just think they help you be a more aware, more prospective sort of human being entrepreneur. And putting together marketing campaigns and selling stuff is a really fabulous, you know, skill and thing to figure out. And at the same time, you know, a lot of times when people are going through challenges or whatever, they have a tendency to want to give up. And, you know, it's really, I think, useful to hear the life experiences from other people in all different realms. I mean, that's why I've interviewed so many people and like doing it because I just, you know, it always gives me a different perspective. And me and you were supposed to interview Ron, you know, a couple weeks prior to me doing that one, but he. His voice was not working. He has stage four lung cancer and he's in a hospice center right now. And, you know, he had gotten word that the, you know, doctors have said he's got two weeks left to live. And so for one, I wanted to go visit him, you know, of course, because, you know, be horrified if he passed away and I wasn't able to go visit him. He's a, you know, He's a past 25K member. He's 81 years old. He's led more Landmark Forum, you know, events than maybe anyone other than Warner Earhart, who started est. So, you know, he's a really powerful guy. And when he was 67 years old, he had stomach cancer and they had given him less than a year to live. And he literally, you know, he overcame that and ran 100 mile marathon after being diagnosed with, you know, stomach cancer. I mean, the guy's intense. And so I went and, you know, I flew out to Salt Lake and visited him and, you know, I met up with Garrett Gunderson who's, you know, a friend of ours and a 25k member, and Jeff Hayes, who is a documentary filmmaker, Jeff Hays Films and, you know, and Tim Poulsen and Neil Moore with Simply Music. And so we had this group of us and we went to, you know, to meet with Ron and, you know, I did three and a half hours of conversation with him and I recorded it all and we literally edited it to a two and a half hour interview because obviously a lot of the conversation wasn't us interviewing the whole time, but it's on. I love marketing as a, you know, bonus episode. So I'd really encourage everyone to, to listen to it. And I mean it, man. It'll make you think. It'll make you think about your life. And, you know, there's a lot of powerful wisdom.

That's a great, really inspiring kind of guy. I like him a lot. He's kind of, I don't know if you remember the. I had Jesse make him an iPhone screensaver. Do you remember that?

Oh, yeah, no, I remember that very well.

That was so, you know, funny. I think we can tell that story, huh?

Well, yeah, go ahead and do it. And the reason I brought all that up and yes, I want you to tell that story is because I come back into town and of course, then it's your birthday and I've, you know, I had a 25k meeting and Brian Tracy, you know, came to the 25k meeting as a guest, which was, you know, he had just gotten back from Russia, but I heard he was going to be in town speaking at the National Speakers association. And of course, I had recently met the lady who runs it, the Arizona chapter, and all this stuff fell into place. So it's been a really active, really cool, really interesting sort of time and there's a lot of business nuggets that I think are very applicable to all the entrepreneurs and marketers out there. But, yeah, go back to that. Ron Zeller. Yeah, it's pretty funny.

Well, you had mentioned that, you had mentioned Landmark seminars that he would run. And he was talking about run asked seminars and that his whole thing was, you know, getting to point where you would kind of break people down so they could have a breakthrough. And his, his standard line that he shared that he used was, was he would get them to that point and then he would tell them, you're an asshole and your life doesn't work. And that was he would do it in this voice and even recreated the voice for us. And it was just so, like, you can imagine him, you can imagine in a Landmark forum or in an event like that where emotions are raw. And here's this authority figure yelling these words at you. And so I had him say those words and took pictures of him while he was saying it. And I had Jesse make up an iPhone screensaver that had his picture and had those words on it, on the, on the screensaver. He got such a kick out of that. That was, that was fun because the look on his face when he was doing it, we captured it perfectly on the screensaver.

You know, it was completely hysterical.

So there you go. That's a fun little Ron Zeller story.

But yeah, you know, I gotta share something too, that while I was up there. So, you know, so we spend this time with Ron and his wife and his son and his wife's best friend, and we're all sitting around in this hospice center and we're having this, you know, really intense discussion. And, you know, that was just, I mean, really made Me think, and again, I want to encourage people to listen to that episode. It's, you know, everyone that's listened to, it's two and a half hours, but everyone that's listened to it that I've personally spoke with is just blown away. And so I was supposed to head back home the next morning. And Jeff Hayes, you know, works on documentary films, and he's, you know, he did one of his recent ones called Doctored about, you know, the medical profession's attempt to kind of run chiropractors out of business. And it's a really well done movie. He did Fahrenheit 9 11. Kind of like the opposite Fahrenheit 911 that Michael Moore did. He did that one years ago, and he's just put together some really cool documentaries, and he's working on one related to the wealth gap. And so he has known the CEO Patrick, of Overstock.com for many years. And he was going to interview him for this new documentary along with the president of Overstock named Stormy. He's like, you want to come? And I was like, yeah, that'd be fascinating. The night before, I looked up online the CEO of Overstock, and there's like, like some negative publicity about this guy. And, you know, he's in some of the. There's a lot of positive publicity also, too. But, you know, there's, you know, there's some articles and stuff that make him out to be this crazy man and stuff. Now, granted, I'm saying all of this with limited information, just limited exposure, but I had it built up in my mind, you know, I wonder what this guy's like. And so we go to, you know, to Overstock and, you know, interview him. And I sit in the room for a couple of hours listening to this guy be asked questions about business, about entrepreneurship. Now, his father was the, I believe, CEO of Geico Insurance. And so his mentor growing up was Warren Buffett. So Warren Buffett was over their house all the time. And so he learned all kinds of stuff from Warren Buffet. And I'm sitting there listening. This guy was one of the most brilliant, articulate from everything I can tell, High integrity, building schools, doing all kinds of stuff that he doesn't even tell anyone about. He runs the Milton, Milton Friedman Foundation. You know, Milton Friedman was a genius. Yeah, yeah, he literally runs his foundation. Milton actually asked him to run it before he passed away. And, you know, and I'm sitting there listening to this guy going, this is not the human being that some of these people write about as this quote unquote crazy person online, I mean this is, this, this guy was one of the most articulate, just brilliant guys that I ever heard. I was completely blown away. But the reason I'm bring it up here is again, I mean I don't, you know, it was the first time I met him, I had no real background. I still tons of stuff I have no idea about him about, but I was completely impressed. But here's the takeaway is, you know, we interviewed Ryan Holiday who wrote, you know, he's the director of marketing for American Apparel. If someone's not heard that episode on I love Marketing, you know, go listen to it. It's really good. But you know, he's written Growth Hacker Marketing. His newest book is the Obstacle is the Way, which is a great book. And you know, he wrot, trust me, I'm lying. Confessions of a Media Manipulator. He basically says in the book and on the interview that almost everything on major blogs and stuff is just horseshit because in order to get readership and stuff, they just have to play to the hype. I'm already a marketer and one of the downsides of being a marketer is you get to see all the great people out there, but you also go backstage and you see how everything is got some selling and marketing element to it, including places that exploit people. Right. You know, I mean, they do it in universities, they do it in government, they do it in churches. I mean, if people went backstage and saw the conversations, when it comes to making money and a lot of things that they hold up in really high esteem and they see how some of these organizations or some of these political parties or some of these institutions actually think about their clientele, they would be horrified. I mean, it's really hard to hold things sacred when you've seen so much backstage stuff. So, you know, one of our jobs as marketers is not get too jaded because there are things that are pure and authentic and they're awesome and there's a lot of people that just, I mean they're just so full of crap. And I already, you know, know that about so many things. And even that, you know, when I went into the overstock meeting and listened to Pat, you know, it really made me be like, man, you know, you just, you know, before you judge somebody, before you really in, people say you shouldn't judge and you shouldn't stereotype. And I kind of sort of get that, you know, and I think I'm pretty good about being open minded.

However, human being Cannot not stereotype. I think that's it. The society depends on that.

Yeah, you have to judge things.

I mean, shortcuts. And that's. I, that's why I kind of listen to the, you know, there's a whole industry of people, you know, making money and talking about. And exploiting how the media is lazy and how, you know, you can manipulate them and how you can, you know, put one over on them of thing. And, you know, I think for myself, I'm like, yeah, but I think that part of the point is that as society, we kind of depend on that. Like anybody. I could put on a police uniform and paint my car like a police car and pull people over and rob them and say, look how easy it was to rob these people. All I had to do was put on this police uniform so that they trust me, you know.

Right, right.

Kind of like they're. Of course, anything is EAS if you don't follow the rule, you know, I mean, it's like, so, I don't know, I kind of take that stuff with, with a grain of salt, you know, Like, I don't know that it's any. That it's a conviction of the media industry more than it is, you know.

I.

Conviction of the person who's doing the manipulating, you know.

Yeah. You know, I mean, I think it's a combination of both. I mean, you know, the media has become an animal. That is, you know, really. I mean, what's real news? You know.

Exactly.

I mean, honestly, I trust marketers that are incentivized to sell something because they have like, some reason to deliver something and you get found out real quickly if you're, if you're full of crap, especially in today's day and age with the ability for people to, you know, I mean, that's one thing that social media has actually brought is the ability to get. You know, one of the worst things you can do if you're a crappy business person is advertise yourself because you just get found out much quicker how crappy you actually are. I think people that have to really deliver on their promises are a heck of a lot more authentic than just someone who's just trying to get their blog read or trying to get a news story or a twisted version of a story or gossip perpetuated. So it's a tough call. It's a tough call because. Because, you know, buried within everything is flowers and manure all in the same field. I mean, it's, you know.

Yeah.

And, you know, and the pessimistic side of me that says this kind of half jokingly is, you know, I mean, we're living in a planet of lunatics, and I'm surprised we get along as well as we do. And, you know, there's not more wars and not more. I mean, seriously, I say that kind.

Of tongue in cheek and I agree with you 100%. I think that's exactly it. That there's, there's. Because of that, you know, there's all society depends on people kind of following the rules sort of thing of society. And that we. Part of wiring in that is that we're dependent on our initial judgments, our gut reactions and our shortcuts for evaluating something as a threat or a. An opportunity. You know, I think it's so. It's so funny to watch. I was had. I was watching on YouTube, there's a show in London, in the UK on television. They're called the Real Hustle. And it's 11 seasons of this, and I recommend anybody look it up on YouTube. But it's a show where the three stars of the show, it's like a reality show. The three stars of the show show you how con artists work, how they hustle people. And it's so interesting to see that how many of the setups for the Hustles depend on engaging those shortcuts, that they set up an environment where people look at those shortcuts and make the decision on, you know, quickly, with limited information, without the time to do all of their due diligence. That it's just like Robert Cialdini talks about, that the weapons of influence are reflexive. You know, we're kind of just. They're automatic responses. Click. Were something triggers it and something sets it into motion. So often they're wearing security uniforms or, you know, road worker uniforms or the, you know, reflective vests or business suits to look like a lawyer or flashing badges. There's. They always work in authority in those. In those situations. And. But I'll tell you about this latest episode that I saw from season 11, where they set up this whole situation where they had gone in to see a house, a mansion that was for sale. And as the couple that was posing as a rich couple looking for this house went in the house and were looking around their accomplice, their third guy, went into the house and then hid in the house while they were both. They were showing the house. And when they left, then the realtor left and the couple came back and the guy opens the door from the inside and lets them in. And then they had arranged for, they rented an aston Martin, a DB9. And they had arranged, run ads for this 3D television that they were going to sell for $500. And somebody came to the house, you know, they arranged the appointment to meet them at the house kind of an hour after they had gone and looked at the house. So they've got it all set up there. They take the TV down there, look, make it look like they're packing everything up. And one of the guys is put posing as a lawyer. One of them is posing as the, the wife owner of the house who's getting divorced. So the girls come in looking to buy the TV for $500. And then they stage this whole thing where the guy, the ex husband, comes back and they staged this whole argument. And she's saying, you can't be here. You're, you know, it's all for the benefit of the two girls who are there buying the tv. One guy's the lawyer, the other guy's the hu. Husband. Ex husband. The, the guy who's there now, he says, I've just come, I'm just gonna pick up the TV and be gone. And she's like, well, I sold the tv. I have the right to sell the tv. I, you know what the agreement is? I can sell the house and everything. The house is sold, the TV is sold. And he's like, right there, I'm just gonna take my car. And she goes, you can't take that car. That's my car. The whole agreement is I get to, I can sell the car. And anyway, he, they calm him down and he, and then she's talking to her lawyer who, the guy who's posing as her lawyer, saying, I just want to just, can I just sell it for four pennies and be done with it? And he's like, you know, trying to sound official and say, well, you can sell it for whatever you want, but legally you have to sell it for at least 8% of its value, right, in an arm's length transaction. Otherwise I could buy it from you, but I'm your lawyer, I can't buy it. Because that would throw up red flags. It has to be an arm's length transaction. That has to be 8% of the value. So, you know, they're saying, well, the car's worth £60,000. And then the girl, kind of joking to the two girls who are there to buy the TV, says, well, why don't you, would you want to buy a car? Like half joking, you know, I'll sell It to you cheap. And the girls greed glands, as Halbert would call them, you could see them being activated. And the, the girl says, well, honestly, I just want to be done with the lower pack up, this stuff will be over. Would sell it to you for £5,000 and be done with it. And so the girls get, you know, they're kind of talking to each other. They go out and look at the car. They see, you know, realize it's a, you know, beautiful sports car. And they know that it's worth more than $5,000. And they've just seen this whole scene to know that this is a real legitimate situation. So they run off and go and back with $5,000. And what struck me about that just before I tell you the end of the story, is how magical greed is. I really started thinking about, you know, the difference between being cheap and being broke. You know, that greed can overcome either one of those. You know, she went out and scraped up the £5,000 and came back and signed the paperwork. And then he gave her the key. He was going to go out with her to do the car. And then as they're halfway out to go to the car, he's like, oh, I got to get this from the house. And she walks, they keep walking over to the car. He runs back into the house, and then they run out the back door and take off. And just as the girls realize that key doesn't work and it's not the key for that car, here comes the auto rental place to pick up the car that they had only rented. And the girl realizes that she's been taken so for £5,500 now, because she bought the TV for 500, bought this car for 5,000, and everything about that scenario was completely manufactured, you know. Right. It was fascinating to watch. And the thing that I realized is that how many times when we're offering things or when we're selling a program or selling something or selling your goods or services of your products and what the price is one thing, but then if it was, if you're selling an Aston Martin for the same amount of money for $5,000 or £5,000, that somebody could, they would go and do anything to scrape up that money to buy something that is clearly worth, you know, many times what they're, what they're paying for it kind of thing. Yeah. Realize like.

Well, let me, let me point something out too. Based on, based on you babbling about that whole story.

What, what I would.

My takeaway is that is one of the biggest reasons to understand lifetime value of a client and that knowing that there's a tremendous amount of fear and skepticism. And the most expensive sale is always the first sale in most cases because you have to acquire the person, you have to go through all the hurdles of the building the rapport, getting them to trust you, delivering something that they then have to determine was worth it. And delivering world class service, talking about the after unit of the before, during and after stages. That's one why being in the relationship business and selling to someone over and over and over again is so much easier than having to run around and chase new people. Because you take a con artist like that, they can't do it to the second person twice. I mean, in some cases they can. And there are certainly organizations that are set up where the odds are completely against the person. I mean, let's take gambling in Las Vegas. I mean, they have orchestrated that to figure out out how to extract money out of people over and over and over again by selling them a hope and having them convinced that they actually can pull it off. And in most cases they're never going to do it, but that's how they built that town. But beyond that, as an individual, it's rare that a con artist is always going to go look for the next target. Scumbag businesses are always, they're not going to get repeat business. Because if your method of making money from someone is finding victims versus clients and customers, that's a completely different sort of issue. So if you are one of those people that truly delivers world class service and I think, you know, or you know, at least makes people happy and I think most people are good, I mean, you know, given the right circumstances where there's not total desperation and you know, government control. And there are certainly parts of the world where it's very, you know, I mean, they've almost created a system that just breeds corruption. But you know, talking about America as an example, and there's many great countries for the most part, most people given the freedom to run a business and not be completely overly regulated, they just want to do good. They want to get paid for what it is they do, they deliver good service. And the business owners that focus on getting the marketing right so they can attract the person and then delivering something, they don't have to be a con artist. And people that don't get it, I think, or they're just criminal minds, they default to that sort of behavior. But, but having said that. So the show is called the Real Hustle.

Yeah, the Real Hustle. Okay.

Having said that, and I think you could vouch for this too. Some of the very best techniques that I have ever learned in business, I learned from con artists. And what I'm. What I mean by that is almost all great marketers know the con. It's kind of like the. The carnival. I mean, they kind of know the trick. The musician knows the riff, the magician knows the trick. So it's kind of like what I mean is you're street smart. So the smartest, most effective people are street smart, and they kind of know the con. The difference is you don't have to con people. I mean, you can. Here's a couple things, too. We've sort of had conversations about this in past episodes. I've been thinking about this and taking a. A lot more seriously lately is a lot of people, when they hear the term marketing, it immediately evokes a perception of bad. And what people are not up on, they're down on. Seth Godin wrote that book All Marketers Are Liars, and then he ended up changing the name to All Marketers are Storytellers. Of course, he switched it back to All Marketers are Liars because it gets a better response by having it titled that way. It's kind of like if you want to see the reaction of people, there's a video online, it's Fuck the poor. If you type in Fuck the poor into Google and watch the video, you'll see the difference between having a sign that says Fuck the poor or Feed the homeless. I mean, people, you know, words evoke certain responses. And now, clearly, in a situation like that, you know, it's almost like adversarial. But, you know, no one's paying any attention to the sign where someone's like, hey, would you like to contribute to homeless people? But you put fuck the poor that all of a sudden, crowds of people.

Are, like, passionately pissed off about this.

That are, you know, coming up to it. Have you seen it?

I have not. I have to.

Oh, yeah, you would love it. I mean, it's such a. It's such a great example of a social experiment.

So.

But coming back to all marketers, you know, are liars, and then all marketers are storytellers. And a different response. What I've been telling a lot of people that are having this aversion to market, they're like, I don't want to do any marketing. It's like, what are you talking about? Everything is marketing that you're doing. And people are like, I don't like selling. So I've been telling people, change the term marketing. If you don't like the term marketing to storytelling, and if you tell a better story, you're going to get a better response. If you tell a better story, you're going to have a much different client or prospect showing up. If you tell a better story, you're going to educate people in a different sort of way. So if you don't like the term marketing, replace it with storytelling. Okay? And then I went to this NSA event and there was Brian Tracy speaking there and a guy named Ron Carr. Ron. And of course, I've heard this a million times too, but I always like giving credit from the most recent person that reinstalled it into my head. And he talked about selling and he said, you know, if you don't like selling, just think of it as influence, because that's what selling is. You know, I mean, and if you're more effective at influencing someone and who doesn't want to be, I mean, what person's going to be like, oh, I have a business, but I don't want to influence anyone into using my product or service or coming into my store or visiting my website or going to the shop. Of course you do. I mean, we're surrounded by influence.

And so if you're one of those.

People, like, I don't like marketing and selling. I mean, like, well, go live in a communist country. What are you, what do you like?

Is what I always. Because I'm with you. I hear that a lot, that the people who say that they have reluctance or. And they mask it with I don't like selling or marketing. And I always interpret that as what they don't like is not successfully selling or marketing their products. They don't like is not having people buy their stuff. They love to have people buy their stuff. Stuff. And there's a different thing.

They just, they just want the money fairy to show up and like, you know, crap money all over them or something.

Yeah. And that's the thing. I've never heard anybody say they don't like people buying their stuff. Nobody has any problem with that. But I think what they're really saying when they say they don't like marketing or they don't like selling is deep down, it's because they don't like people rejecting their marketing or their seller. They haven't figured out a way. It was so funny. We had a great discussion about that in my Mastermind group last week. I was saying to somebody, the magic is when you can get to feel like Your job, like if you're, as a marketer is the equivalent of getting to drive the Publishers Clearing House Sweepstakes and van and you get to pull into somebody's driveway and see how excited they are about you showing up and you being there. That's really the ultimate, you know, metaphor or level for what, you know, you could aspire to on your own in your own marketing. You know, imagine if people felt the way they would feel if the Publisher's Clearinghouse Sweepstakes van pulled up in their driveway. When you pull up in their driveway or when your email arrives in their inbox or your, you know, your offer comes to them. That would be, that's the aspiration, you know, and that comes down to. That's what I say I feel about like our money making websites that we do with the realtors is the offer of, you know, being able to say to some, I'm going to build your website, we're going to train you on how to use it in our, you know, a 12 week program. We're going to take you through, I'm going to show you everything you need to do. I'm going to pay for your domain name and your autoresponder and all that stuff. And then you pay. When it works that people feel like they've been visited by the Publisher Clearinghouse Sweepstakes van that day because it's somebody taking their interest first, you know, and the thing that drives that is that you've got to have the ability to deliver, deliver the result. You got to have the ability to get somebody a result, to change their life in a meaningful way that's more valuable than the amount of money that you charge to do it and preferably that you could do it after they've had the change, you know, that kind of thing. And the only way that you get to a point where you're comfortable doing that kind of change is when you are confident in your ability to, to deliver it.

Yep, I know. I totally agree. So how does one, how do you know when you've arrived at that confident level?

What does one feel like?

What's going on?

Here's the thing. So when you, when you ask yourself the question that we, we did a whole episode about this of what would you do if you only got paid when your client gets a result? And that is sort of a, you know, that's kind of where that automatic reflex will come with your, with your clients, that it'll be the same look in their eyes that I was describing in the girl who's faced with the opportunity to buy a $60,000 car for $5,000, it's immediately clear that this is a deal and this is going to happen and I need to go and scrounge up $5,000 and get back here as fast as I can. You know, I mean, that kind of awareness, you know, just knowing that there's some level in everybody's mind where that gland is switched, you know, that it becomes an automatic compelled to take advantage of your offer. But where, you know, where you're at that point is when you feel, feel confident that you could make that offer. You know, that's how you asked, how do you know? You know, how do you start? And I think that the thing is I always recommend to people that you just ask yourself that question silently at first, without even, without even voicing it, you know, just silently to yourself say, what would I do? What would happen if I only got paid if my client gets a result? And fully getting your goal in alignment with their goal, you know, it's so with your clients goal, you know, we had and I see it all the time, but we had at the I Love Marketing conference some SEO guys who are doing SEO for dentists and all the SEO offer versus the pay per click offer is there's a gap in that. It's almost like on the SEO offer their criteria for success is getting the page optimized, getting all of the meta tags and the links and authority of whatever else needs to be done to get something ranked on Google, Google today, this month because it constantly changes and so you have to readapt or whatever, but they do best practices for today, get that up. And after a period of time are able to say to the dentist, ta da, here you go, we got you on the first page of Google. And they're celebrating because their criteria for success is that they got them on the first page of Google. And the dentist, dentist is somewhat less enthusiastic about this success end result because their criteria for success is patients in their chair. So they're looking at the chair and saying, well, I don't have anybody in my chair yet. And the service provider is looking at the ranking and saying, well your number six on Google on whatever search term this is, you know, and so there's a gap in the, there's a gap there in the criteria for success. So when you get your criteria in alignment with your clients criteria for success, that's where it really starts and that's, you know, where it comes down to innovation and you know, being able to deliver a Result, that's what where Drucker talks about, the only two things that matter in business are marketing and innovation. Everything else is an expense. And so we kind of gloss over that innovation part. But innovation is getting better at getting a result for somebody, and that's what drives it all. Being 100% confident.

Well, I want to bring up a couple of things too, that touch on this and we can come back to that topic if you want. I would estimate we're probably about 41, 42 minutes into this episode prior to starting to record. I've been talking with you about doing 30 minute episodes and trying that versus one hour episodes. And I know if we put this out to all of our listeners and I would like to and have you comment on ilovemarketing.com, the actual website, not on itunes, although you can comment all you want on itunes, which we appreciate if you, if you like it. If you don't like our episodes, we'd appreciate if you really don't say anything, don't tell anyone that. Yeah, Full refund for the free podcast. So, you know, we've been talking about that. But you said about a previous episode. Okay. About getting results now. So if someone's not heard that episode before, it would be really useful for you to listen that episode because it'll allow you to go deeper with what you just talked about.

Dean.

And we've got over 150 hours of episodes on. I love marketing. And I've talked to a couple of people that have listened to every episode twice, which is a tremendous devotion of time. I mean, could you imagine over 300 hours of listening? I mean, you might need therapy after listening, listening to us talk that much. But it's like. And we really appreciate that. That's great. And then the people that I've talked to that have listened to the episodes multiple times, I say, you know, I hear things I never heard the first time. And I went after my 25k meeting, you know, this is how busy my last few days are, you know, because it's a Monday at the time that we're recording this particular episode. And So I do 25k on Thursday and Friday. Friday night I go to Harvey McKay's house for a party he was having. You know, Harvey's wrote Swim with the Sharks and of course on there with my friend Kim. And he gives me a copy of his book, which he's given me many copies of his books in the past. But he gives me another copy of the Swim of the Sharks book, which is now 30 years into it, he's talking about how long it's been a bestseller and how many copies have been sold over the years. And he's like, this is one of those books that you need to read every year. And then, you know, and if you've ever met Harvey, I don't know if you have, but Harvey's a pretty persuasive guy, right? He's just total freaking salesman. And so Harvey is like just talking about how important it is to be reading his book every year. But he says this interesting comment. He goes, you know, this is one of these books you got to read every year because you're always going to learn something new. And it's principle based. And he said, and you're never the same person you were before. And he goes, it's really smart to find, find good books and read them over and over again. And he said, because he goes, even if you read the book, you're not the same person. And so we sort of had a conversation about that. And he's like, you know, are you the same person today than you were a year ago? I mean, you the same person today than you were 10 years ago? He goes, so when you read a book, you're not reading the book as the person that you used to be or that you thought about the world. You're, you're, you're right. So you always have a different experience. And he goes, you'll get a much better sort of deepening and understanding of a really great book by reading it frequently than reading it once. And I would say the same thing with the I love marketing episodes. We have people that didn't even know what marketing even was, direct response, at least until they started listening to I love marketing. They start getting results, they're making money, they've transformed their business. If they go back and listen to that original stuff, I mean, I go back all the time and read the very first things that I first learned about marketing from Gary Halbert or Dan Kennedy or Ted Nicholas or David Ogilvy. Anyway, the reason I'm bringing all that up is I have this concern that new people that come and start listening. I love marketing. There's this library of amazing stuff, people that we've interviewed, topics we've discussed in the past. And I'm like, I want them to be able to hear that. I want them to catch up. So I like the idea of doing shorter episodes. But we also have die hard people that are used to listening to an hour. They're like, no, no, we don't really like that. But the point is, because it's a podcast, because we have so much content, I'm thinking doing 30 minute episodes, you know, sounds like a better idea to me. But you know, we've had, you know, there's pros and cons to all of this, but I thought I would bring that up right now. So two, two things, Dean, I want to get your, your thoughts on that. And secondly, you talked about the previous episode about, you know, what if you only got paid if you produce results. I want you to kind of give sort of your, you know, guidance on some of the stuff that people can go back and listen to that we've created that's free and is there for them, that would be helpful to them. So I'd like you to speak to those topics.

The specific episode that we talked about that the first time is episode 82 and the one about getting results. And that was after your 25k event in New York where we went up and recorded in the, in the hotel after we had just done a 10 minute talk about that clarifying question, what would you do if you only got paid if your client gets the result? And how life changing seriously contemplating that question can be. And so we talk all about that in episode 82. But since we were talking before this call, Joe, I had an idea that I thought would be great is to do an episode guide for all the episodes that we have right now that new listeners can download and look at what's available. Because you can search and find any of the episodes on the Isle of Marketing website and you can find them in itunes. Every single episode is on itunes right now. And a lot of times what, you know, other podcasts do is they just keep the latest 10 episodes up on, on itunes. We have all of them up available there. So.

Well, how does one subscribe, how does one subscribe, Dean, on itunes so they don't even have to worry about going and getting them.

You know, that's where the majority of our listeners are subscribed on itunes. And you can use right on your smartphone. My iPhone has a podcast app built right in and you can subscribe. I subscribe to. I love marketing. I subscribe to 10 Times Talk. I subscribe to whatever other podcasts and they're as soon as they're updated, they automatically come into the, into your feed so you can listen to them right on your iPhone. Since we've been talking about this, I've been having a lot of conversations with people about where they listen to. I love marketing. And it's funny because even all the people, it was getting a lot of birthday wishes and a lot of people were, you know, calling themselves members of the 150 Club, you know, listening to all 150 episodes. And some of them have listened multiple times, but I was talking with the guys at my Mastermind group. Some of them listen, it's the perfect amount while they are, they go for a walk, they go for a good long walk, somebody commutes and they listen to the podcast. It's the perfect amount for their commute. They listen at one and a quarter speed, which you can do on the iPhone. So they listen to one and a quarter speed and it's the exact amount of their, of their commute. But I've often thought how personal the podcast media is. You know, like when you look at what we've been able to do with people is build this sort of intimate relationship because it's all, it's just us and them when they're consuming. It's not like, you know, a video where they have to, they have to full attention both body and mind. Whereas, you know, here, same thing with reading, you have to be sitting still. You can't be doing anything else. But the most beautiful thing about audio is that we're in a place where they don't have any other things to do. We had. Their body is occupied and their mind is free and we are sharing that moment with them while they're driving. I can't tell you how many people have told me how excited they get when they have a long drive because they'll load up, you know, episodes and that's what they'll listen to on their four hour drive somewhere. You know, they load up eight episodes to go somewhere four hours and then come back to the four hours or when they have a long plane trip or you know, when they go to the gym or you know, any of those kind of things. So it's, I think there's something great about being able to spend that kind of extended amount of time with people. I noticed that you and I, when we have these conversations, it's like there we got time to meander and to kind of have a full conversation about something. And we may cover three or four things in one podcast. And it's, you know, so many of the things that I think have maybe been. Some of the greatest insights that we've had have come after we've had time to have a whole conversation and get right into it. And then we're fully into the episode where at, you know, minute 45, the last 15 minutes of something really profound or a new thought that we've both kind of come to that conclusion or come to that space only through having the conversation. I mean, I learned things listening to the conversations that we have. I mean, the fact is that you and I have been friends for 17 or 18 years and having these conversations just to ourselves and they've always been a valuable part of our friendship. And having the, you know, there's still the essence of all of those is still there because essentially we're still two guys just having conversations. You know, we're not coming in with. This is the episode arc. And you know, in this is the, you know, we're going to cover this. This, this here's the call outline. I mean we've done whatever it is now 155 episodes. And they all come out of just having conversation, you know, not through any master outlining plan that this is the curriculum, but they're principle based, you know, and ext. Experience based and things that we actually are living every day, you know.

Right. Well, yeah. I mean, the other thing is like, what if I just don't want to talk to you?

You know, and as much as that would pain me, that's probably more the reality, right? The. Conversation. It's like I think that the whole, the that whole, you know, dynamic for 150 episodes, I think we can really kind of put that down and let people know that you really do love me. That this is a made for TV Persona. I also think it's so funny that I love that it's kind of become, you know, a thing that it's the, the Batman and Robin and the whole, the whole dynamic. It's so funny because they know you're capable of being nice because you've never in how many episodes have you done of 10 times talk.

10X talk.

Yeah, how many?

You know, I probably. What? I think we're on like 30 or something.

30 something. So 30 something episodes that you've never once said anything at all. You guys just cuddle over there and fawn over each other.

I think I might, I might have just. Dan a couple of times. I might have just. Danica, have you listened every episode? I have. I have.

I've listened to every episode. Now there's.

So you're check. You're checking on this. You're actually spying to see if I, If I talk shit to Dan?

No, that's not it at all. I'm just sharing with you. You my observation of it. That I love. I love 10x talks. I love listening. I mean that's, it's.

The 10x talk is 30 minutes. 10x talk is 30 minutes.

Honestly, I don't think that you go deep enough into some of the things that you Talk about on 10x talk. I mean, if I take the arc of 10x talks, you guys, you go, you, you, you cuddle for a little bit. I love you. I love you too. No, I love you more. Oh, no. I've loved the first moment I laid eyes on you. I knew that this was somebody who's a special man. Oh, well, I appreciate you saying that. It's so humbling and you know, I mean, it's just gagged me a little bit. And then you get going on.

You see what it is, you're jealous. You're jealous. We're here at a sordid perception because.

I know you're capable of it. I've seen it for 30 something straight episodes. I think we should have like the bizarro episodes where one time you're like, you treat Dan like you treat me and treat me like you treat. That. That would be just beautiful.

That's funny. You know what we made. Well, here's my, my thinking though. Even if we did 30 minute episodes.

You know, that it's true. But honestly, here's. That is my, my other point about that is that the 30 minute episodes that you don't, I don't think you go, I feel often unsatisfied from. I don't feel like it's a completion. That's just my. I would be interesting to hear what other people say to, you know, because you just get going, you get going on something good and then you're like, okay, well.

Here'S, here's what I, here's what I think. You know, I've talked to people, they're like, you know, I have a 30 minute car ride and if I didn't know what I end up doing is I listening to half an episode. And they, then they don't, for whatever reason, you know, keep, keep where they.

Their spot.

That's what I loved there. Say that again.

I said, well, if it took them half an hour to get there, you would think that it would take them half an hour to get back.

No, but I'm telling you, like some people, they lose their spot because of. That's the greatest thing about old like technologies, like cassette tapes. You remember when you would have cassette tapes in your car? I mean wherever you stopped it. If you think you didn't you didn't sink your cassette tape. And then it, you know, like if I'm listening to something on my iPhone, ipod and I go to sneak.

Doesn't save the spot, mine does. And you're probably not using the right thing. My, my podcast app on the iPhone is because I mean you don't need Joe. I live seven minutes from my, from my office, so I never get well.

Yeah, but you've also got to understand the, you don't, you don't work. Whereas most people on the planet actually they do do some work. And so they're kind of, so they would, you know, they would maybe appreciate a 30 minute episode because they would be able to, you know, they would be able to have. And I don't think anything that me and you would talk about would lose any of the wisdom in it, no matter what the length that we do. But it's good to even talk about this because live on the spot we're actually sharing with people the shit that we have to think about as we're providing a podcast to the world in the hopes of bettering all of our listeners ability to run, market, package, promote a business, providing great service, orchestrating referrals, just developing more profitability and just doing it in more stealth like effective manners. Now say this, Dean, we've got about a minute left before we hit the hour mark. So how are you going to wrap this up?

Amen. See, there we go. Even an hour is not enough.

If it was up to you, we'd be spent. We'd be like, welcome to the next week long episode of I Love Marketing Dean Jackson and Joe Polish. This is a no sleep for the.

Next 47 hours oh my goodness marathon. And that's ultimately like one of those.

Things from the 50s where they would like whoever's the last couple dancing wins like a washer dryer or whatever.

Ultimately that's the thing that the hour. There's so many different things that we talk about that you don't have to listen to a whole episode in completion. It's literally been 155 hour conversation that we've had. It's really, I think about it as one conversation and I listen to because I listen to our podcast too.

You can literally fast forward and you can pick up on any tangent that we happen to be on at that moment. We now got, we've now hit the one hour mark, Dean. We got it. Okay. We can't do this. We can't do this all day.

Okay.

So here's what I would say and.

We should put it to know, in.

All seriousness, there's pros and cons to everything. And we're gonna make a judgment call based on either. We may, we may test things too, because I, I like testing the market. I'm a little radical in that way. And I like, you know, providing our clients with stuff. But here was. My primary reason for thinking about 30 minute episodes is I want people to go back and listen to the past episodes. That's my primary, that was my primary motivation is I thought, you know, if people have not listened to past episodes of. I love marketing. There's so much great stuff there and I want people to have the ability to get caught up, if that's even possible.

It's only going to take them one hour a week to keep up with the new ones. So they've got 167 other hours each week. They could listen in one week. They can be completely caught up.

Yeah, assuming they have nothing else going on in their lives. They don't get any other information. I mean, they. This ain't a cult here. I mean, we expect people to get input from, you know, we're not. This ain't, this ain't the North Korea version of a podcast where you're not able to get any other information.

Why should we penalize the people who love it and are up to date and have listened to every episode and anticipate the next one? Why should we scale back for them?

Well, for this, not scaling back, it's not scaling. If they literally need more content, they can always go to 10x talk, they can go to geniusnetwork.com and they can go to the perfect life. I mean, you know, there's, there's, there's plenty of other stuff. You know, this ain't the only gig. You know, these aren't the only. It's almost like we have different bands. You know what I mean?

Yeah.

This ain't the only thing going on. All right, well, here's the deal. Here's the deal. We want feedback from all of our listeners. Please go to ilove marketing.com, let us know what you learned, what you got out of this, and what your thoughts are on the length of the episodes. And, you know, be open for us trying different things. Because at the end of the day, we just want people to be really happy and ecstatic with what we're doing. We want them to build and grow a business and we want you to continually fall in love with the new strategies and the old strategies and just be a far more effective marketer because in my opinion marketers are ones that make the world go around. So with that being said, that's my thoughts. You got final last words, Dean So here's the thing.

I think I'm excited about continuing to carry the conversation with people and a couple of things that we've done in the last little while here that's adding to the experience that people have is each week on ilove marketing.com we've been posting up now a blog post which is and a summary from an episode where maybe we've had Richard Branson, we just had a blog post from him or Dan Kennedy at Body Robbins, Evan Pagan, we've got so much great content and in every episode there's highlights that come up on those. So we're posting up each week a new post from an episode that is on ilovemarketing.com and then each segment Saturday we've been posting up a Saturday marketing matinee video and that's available for you to just go and watch. And those are either curated video that is something that we think is a great marketing example or it's one of the speakers at our Isle of Marketing conference we had a couple weeks ago we had Robert Cialdini spoke at the Isle of Marketing conference and we put up the video from that. This Saturday we had Joe and I did a video with Jarrick Robbins with Tony Robbins son for his show and we put that up as a Saturday video matinee this week. So lots of good stuff going on, lots of stuff going in the works. Constantly making things better for you and building our relationship with you. That's really what we're doing all about. So that's the final word. Joe. Okay, cool.

So that's our 105 minute episode. Thanks to Dean.

Tried to warn him, tried to warn him.

He would keep you here all day. He'd make you late for work. So just to this to finish off. So actually I lied. I guess I had the last word there. So say something so it at least we can stay within.

Good night everybody.

Thanks. Talk to everyone later.

There.