What it Really Takes To Become A Successful Writer With Anna David - I Love Marketing Episode #303

Want to be a truly successful writer? Anna David shares what it really takes, how to find your flow, how a book can transform your career, and the art of using words to make a bigger impact on the world. Anna David is a New York Times best selling author, journalist and television personality specializing in addiction and recovery as well as relationships. She's the author of Party Girl Bot, the nonfiction Reality Matters and more. If you would like access to the full interview, the show notes and the special resources for this episode, please visit ilovemarketing.com 303 that's ilovemarketing.com 303 I'm Dean Jackson, he's Joe Polish and this is the I Love Marketing podcast. Hello, this is Joe Polish and I am really excited to do this episode with my really good friend by the name of Anna David, who has become a really good friend in the last year. So let me tell you a little bit about her and then I'll get in asking her some questions. Anna David is the New York Times best selling author of two novels and four nonfiction books about addiction, recovery and relationships. She's been published in the New York Times, Time, the LA Times, Vanity Fair, Playboy, Vice, and Women's Health, among many others, and has appeared repeatedly on the Today Show, Hannity, Attack of the show, Dr. Drew, Red Eye, the Talk, and numerous other programs on Fox News, NBC, CBC, the SMTV, VH1, and E. She's a former editor at the Fix, Rehab Reviews and in Recovery Magazine. She's created and hosts the Recover Girl Podcast and the Recovery storytelling show Hammered Time. She speaks at colleges across the country about relationships, addiction and recovery, and through her all the Right Moves program, she runs writing and performance workshops and coaches writers through the process of publishing essays and and selling their book proposals. So Anna, that is your bio. What didn't I say that people should know about you because we're going to talk about writing today.

What didn't you say? You didn't say how happy it made me to hear you say that I've become a good friend. But that made me so happy. It's really I'm not going to spend all this time just talking about how amazing you are and how happy I am to be working with you and knowing you. But it really is a kind of special, amazing thing to think that I didn't even know you six months ago. No, nine months ago.

Yeah, exactly.

Yeah. So I don't know. I mean, I could talk about myself for three days. So you don't want to ask me to just go ahead and do that.

Well, you know, it's funny. I think we first.

No, no, no.

I mean, you know, my ego probably wants it, but for the sake of our listeners and everything, I think we just jumped into it. And I think we first had an email exchange about a year ago or something, or someone tried to introduce us. And then finally the way that we ended up meeting in person was a car ride on the way to Sedona, Arizona. We were both going there at the same time and we just happened to know that you had a friend with you and I had a friend with me. And so this boom. We ended up driving up to Sedona and having a conversation and realizing how much me and you are aligned and are wanting to help people that struggle with addictions. Both of us being addicts ourselves and having been involved in recovery for many years and all the trials and tribulations and challenges and fun times and everything that's involved in the, in that sort of stuff. And, you know, now we've, you know, we got a lot of, a lot of things that we're collaboratively working on together and that we help each other on. And yeah, so we're both, we're both big fans of each other. So I just wanted to, I wanted to share this with my audience because you're an extremely talented writer. And part of it is words in copy and writing and conveying are critical when it comes to getting messages out. And most of what you do is not really in the area of advertising copy, although you're extremely skilled in many forms of writing. But what I wanted to do is kind of just talk about the people that are listening, how to think about writing, where, what it even is, how to get better at it. And I'm going to ask you some questions related to marketing.

So one thing, you know what else I'm really skilled at is remembering minute details. And we actually met in January. I don't want to freak you out. This is what it's like for every guy who ever dates me. I'll be like, no. On January 2nd you said this, but we met because you interviewed me for your documentary and I interviewed you for my podcast and.

Oh, that's right, that's right. What am I talking about?

Yeah, what are you talking about? And I did it. I was like, I want to know this guy. And I saw that my sister in law knew you. I wrote you some like, fan letter on Facebook, which, you know, you're doe polish. You don't have time to read your like random Facebook fan mail unless you are listening and you're a fan and you wrote him, in which case, of course, he's reading it. But yeah, so then I had Maria do an email direction, and then we met and then we just bonded and. Yeah, and then the Sedona trip happened after that, which was kind of hilarious. And. Yeah, we've just taken it from there.

You're right. And I feel like a total dummy for not even. As if that whole little podcast thing didn't even exist in a hotel room. But anyway, so thank you for clarifying.

I have a Jo Polish sticker face on my still on my headphones case because of that, which I will never take off.

And every. Every person that travels should have one of those things just to bring some.

Great.

Yeah, bring some, you know, some spiritual healing to their luggage. I guess so. All right, well, okay, now that we got that clarified, let's just jump into it. So I've got a few questions, and I'm going to ask you some stuff that's just, you know, whatever I think would be most useful for the listener. So what. Since so much of what I teach and how I learned about writing, because I never got any training in writing. I mean, I've never taken a writing course, unless you want to call the marketing courses and the books on copywriting, of which I've read many in the many seminars I've attended. I've never taken a quote unquote formal writing course in college or anything like that online or whatever. And most of what I learned about words is how to persuade and compel people. And once I started writing, you know, I just started writing like I talk. I would have improper grammar. And, you know, for some reason, it just worked. And what I learned early on in my business, my first writing really took place in running ads, trying to persuade people to hire me when I had a carpet cleaning company. And so you've heard my whole story of Consumer Guide to Carpet Cleaning and hiring a copywriter to do that. And then I started writing newsletters. So it came from marketing. And most of the people that are out there that listen to my podcast are not thinking about, let me just write for the sake of writing. They're thinking of how do I use writing to actually build and grow a business. But there's so much more to it. So what part do you think marketing plays into having a successful writing career, since you've basically your career is as a successful writer?

Well, it's really interesting because I've kind of gone the opposite route. You know, I majored in Creative writing. I delusionally thought I would, you know, make some terrific living as a writer. And I wrote book after book and, you know, published them with traditional publishers. HarperCollins One was a new York Times bestseller and I made no money. Like, nothing, especially if you broke it down to what I was making per hour was probably like cents on the hour. And what I learned over those really 10 years I was doing that is that as an author, you're in sales and nobody tells you that. You finish your book, you think you're a writer, and then your publisher is basically like, okay, see ya, go have, go sell that thing. And you're up against insurmountable odds and you end up becoming a total hustler. And I hustled and I had media contact so I would get on the Today show and I would get in Cosmo and all of these things, but still enough to make it, you know, a fantastic living. And then I started to become disillusioned and think, my God, I have to go get a job. I guess, you know, all I know how to do is write. And I started studying marketing a couple years ago and it is so much more creative to me than writing. I find it so fun to try to use the skills that I've developed that frankly, if we're going to talk about making money, have been useless and use those to actually, you know, support myself in a way that's fabulous. And it's interesting because I think we were talking last week and you said, hey, what's your flow state? And I hadn't really thought about it like that. But my flow state writing comes very easily to me. I can crank out a book like I can crank out an essay that's good. You know, not to sound self aggrandizing in 10 minutes, but it's not my flow state. It's I'm on fire when I'm kind of going, okay, I'm going to take this audio, I'm going to make it into this thing, then I'm going to make it a Facebook ad, and then I'm going to make it into a newsletter. That's what gets me going, which is really interesting.

Yeah, that is awesome. Well, what tips and suggestions do you have for people even just getting themselves in a flow state, or whatever you want to call it that allows them to be most productive?

Well, I think with writing specifically, I do want to say one thing about writing. I meet people all the time who are in a flow state with writing and who love it. It just wasn't for me, if you want to get in a flow state with writing, you have to banish perfectionism. I do not believe writer's block exists. I believe it's just striving for perfectionism, which is, you know, a form of self obsession in a way. And what. What people who want to write need to remember is, you know, you sort of. I hate this expression, but you sort of vomit out your first draft and then you go fix it later. I think it was Dorothy Parker said, writing is rewriting. And so I think that people will, quote, hate writing because they're trying to make it perfect and they're overthinking it and all of those things. But I think just letting yourself, you know, just knowing that it's going to suck is the greatest gift you can give yourself in terms of finding your flow state for anything. I think it's just, see. See where. What you do, where you don't even notice the hours passing, where you feel excited, where, you know, I feel. I don't know, it's like with each new marketing thing, I feel like I. You know, it sounds so cheesy, like I've won a race, like, or I'm in the race where I'm just excited.

Yeah. Yeah, totally. Let me ask you about. When you were not sober, were you writing?

Oh, my God, I was writing so badly. I. My thing was, I decided I wanted to be a TV writer, and I would get completely wired, and I would write spec scripts for television shows I had never seen and think that I was going to sell them. And I remember once, the only spec I ever wrote that anybody liked was a Sex in the City, which I wrote not high at about 20 minutes. And then I would try. My last couple of years before I got sober were really sad and really dark, and I was in my apartment alone with just two cats and a lot of cigarettes and a lot of coke and a lot of peering out the blade, you know, window, thinking my neighbors were spying on me with binoculars, and I was quote, unquote, writing. But really, I was standing there like, if you do enough coke, I may not need to tell you this. You go from, like, life of the party to you literally feel like you can't move. Did you ever get like that?

Oh, definitely. Definitely. Yeah.

So I'd be on the couch, and I'd go, God, I really have to pee. I really have to pee. God, getting up sounds. I don't even know. It would just sound too hard. I'm just gonna hold it, you know? And so I had this Computer. It was one of those orange Macs. Remember Those? And late 90s Macs. And if you didn't hit a key for a minute, it would go like, do you want to save? And there would just be this little beep. So it'd be like, do you want to save?

Beep?

And I was. But if you're all coked out, that beep was the loudest thing. It's like a megaphone. And so I would get so paralyzed that I would just go, okay, hit a key. Hit a key. You don't want to hear the beep. You don't hear the beep. And then I would hear the beep. And I would like, you know, jump out of my skin, spill coke everywhere, and then wait another 59 seconds, you know, try to move again. I mean, that was my quote, unquote writing. So I spent two years revising a screenplay that was better when I started.

Wow.

No, I wasn't getting a lot of writing done.

Well, you know what?

What?

Here's the thing that. The reason I actually bring that up, it mostly, like, how often could I actually have this conversation with someone? I'm doing a podcast, and I think the things that. Cause what I've learned with all the stuff that I've been doing in the addiction field is the things that prevent people from having success or initiating something or starting something or following through with something or learning a strategy, a methodology, a skill set. Learning how to pay attention is like, are they sober or not? I mean, where are their addictions? What are they doing? And you want to be a better writer, like, have rituals, take care of yourself, invest time, get training from people that know what it is they're doing. Be able to focus on that training. Don't overwhelm yourself. I mean, there's a lot of things we could talk about all of that stuff. But I was just curious about before and after sobriety. And I can remember your sobriety periods longer than I can remember the first time we actually met each other. Clearly, you've been SOBER for now 17 years.

In November, it'll be 17 years. Yeah. And that's the thing, is, I mean, there are people, obviously, Bukowski. There are many people, many of our fine writers who were able to do lots of drugs and drink a lot and produce great work. I am not one of them. I couldn't get anything done, and I got fired from every job. And, you know, I was somebody. And I think that's one of the reasons I've been. I've embraced my sobriety. So much is I kind of instantly started to get what I wanted career wise that the minute I got sober, it hasn't been perfect every second. But people who are way more high functioning I think sometimes have a harder time getting on board with the sober program.

Yeah, you know, you're right. You're right. The more high functioning of an addict they are, the more difficult it is because they can still somehow manage to make things work.

Yeah.

So who makes the most money writing? I mean now I'll say, you know, the copywriters, the people that actually sell products and services. But as writers who are. Who's the genre that makes the most money writing?

It's probably, I don't know, the percentage point.00001% are making any money. The way to make money, if you're just going to be a straight up writer, the only way to make money is to write a book that becomes a book that people who don't read books read. If you manage to write A million little pieces, 50 shades of gray, Eat, Pray, Love, so that you're writing a book that people are going to go to cocktail parties or wherever and feel stupid for not knowing that is the only way. And it's the most black and white business. So publishers, you know, there's the sort of the big five publishers and I was published with them. They know they're not going to recoup 90% of the advances that they give out. And they're banking on like that one every quarter. That's just gonna be crazy. You know, the, you know, Oprah doesn't really pick books anymore. But you know, the book, the Oprah book. And those are the only people. And even those, because I'm friends with some of those people, even they need another game plan. You know, James Fry has a book production company where he hires other writers to write his books. James Patterson hires other writers to write his book. It's a terrible if you want to make money. And I was slow both to realize that and also to realize that I cared about making money. I think I grew up thinking there was something wrong with that, with caring about that. And you know, I sort of feel sometimes like I'm the opposite of that. The person who, whose parents were like, go to law school, become a lawyer. And then they did it and then they realized in their 40s that really they always wanted to be a writer. I'm like, oh, okay. I followed my heart. Now I really want to be a person who's successful and makes the kind of living she wants to make.

Yeah, yeah. Well, you know, you actually have a writing training that you actually train people on how to write. And you're obviously also telling them that, you know, here's how to write, but here's how you're actually going to build this into a real business. And we'll talk about that. Because if anyone, you know, after hearing you, decides, yeah, I would actually like to learn from Anna, then, you know, I want you to be able to. To tell people how they can do that. Now, I jotted down a couple things you said that I just want to touch on. You're in sales and no one tells you that. And also, you were hustling. And I'd like to ask you. There's some really talented people, I mean, amazingly talented, but they just don't have the hustle. They cannot bring themselves to initiate an action or ask for money, position themselves in a way to where they're. They're literally making things happen and they're waiting to get discovered. And most of the successful people, I mean, you can point to these rare situations where someone just got discovered as a lounge singer or something, and they didn't have any game plan and they had the right person at the right time, happened to be there. But, you know, that's hope, and hope is not a strategy. So what would you say about turning on the hustle muscle if you currently don't have it, if you're not flexing.

It, It's a practice thing. It's sort of like you don't go to the gym and get strong in one day. And I know so many people who are super talented writers who will submit to one agent and go, I always get rejected. And I'm just like, do you understand? My first agent I got is when I was a screenwriter. I bought a book called the Hollywood Creative Directory that had, I think, 250 agen. And I sent a letter because it was the dark ages to every single one. And four of them wrote me back, and then two wanted to sign me. And that's the kind of numbers game it is. And if you don't have the. If you don't have the strength for that hustle, you cannot. You cannot do it because it's it. You know, the successful writers I know are not the most talented ones. They're the ones that stuck it out the longest. It's going to work. It's going to work, but you just have to have. You have to have thick skin. And the thing is, life requires thick skin. So it's great practice. For life, where we get rejected. No matter who we are, we're getting rejected all over the place. We're dealing with discomfort and tragedy. That's just part of what being a human being is. So you got to do it for life anyway. So why don't you just, you know, learn to do it with your, with your writing and your creative work. And a lot of what I teach is about, yes, it's about, you know, format and how to do it, but it is also about how to get your hustle on.

I like what you just said about we get rejected all over the place. How does one build up the perspective? I wouldn't even say tolerance, but just the way you reframe rejection. Because in sales training, you know, I mean, they'll, they teach you how to. Well, depends on who's selling them. I mean, the reason I got into marketing is because marketing allows you to not get like rejected face to face because you can put out a lot more communications, which again is the beauty of writing, you know, like a great salesperson, their job. If you had to do door to door sales, I would always teach this to carpet cleaners when I would, you know, frame advertising what a good ad is intended to do. And I'd say, you know, what would be the job of a door to door salesperson? You know, if you were to literally knock on doors, cold prospect, no introduction, like literally the worst sort of way you could ever sell a cold sale. You know, you would, if someone answered the door, you wouldn't just stand there and smile and look good. You would say things, you would speak about the benefits of what's in it for them. You would give them compelling reasons. You would say everything that you possibly could that would, you know, compel them to want to buy something from you. And what a lot of people would think of as image advertising is just simply, you know, stand there and look good. But in terms of, once you do that same sort of thing in writing, you have powerful headlines, you have an irresistible offer, you create a sense of urgency. I mean, there's sort of a formula for how you go about doing that. And so I learned how to. I didn't like rejection. So if I figured if I could write something and send it out to people and I could position myself in advance, by the time I talk to them, I'd have a less likelihood to deal with rejection. Now, that being said, you still are not going to eliminate it. It is everywhere. And if you, if you can't deal with that, good luck ever. Being an entrepreneur so what are, what are the ways you think about rejection?

Well, I think, you know, something I learned when I got sober and, you know, the word God is always controversial, but I heard, you know, rejection is God's protection. So you gotta, you know, if you subscribe to the philosophy that everything happens the way it's meant to, which is a philosophy I choose to subscribe to, what I'm not getting, I'm not meant to get. And you can look at it and go, you can look back on your life and go, oh my God, I wanted that so badly. I didn't get it. It hurts so much. And then look at this better thing that I got instead. And I mean, that's true over and over again, not just in my life, but in lives of many, many people I know. And it's like, you just cannot, it's a clich. You cannot take it personally. It's, you know, in personal lives, in dating, you know, it took me a long time to accept that I was going to get rejected and I had to go, well, I could remind this guy of his mother who he hates. Like, I, it's not about me. You know what I mean? I mean, sometimes it is, but you have to just know that it's not about you. And that. And then also it's like, what kind of a life would it be if you just had success after success? You would never appreciate it. And it's sort of like, what kind of a movie? If you're watching the movie of your life, it's like, okay, so here's Joe Polish. He was born with like a silver spoon in his mouth and then he just had success and then he had more success. And then this, you know, that's a boring movie. Who wants that?

You're absolutely right. Yeah, you're right. So, okay, well, let me, I'm going to jump around a bit here. And just because there's a lot of people that talk about writing a book. There's a lot of people that are clients of mine that have written books. Many. I think I have more New York Times bestsellers than Genius Network, than probably any other type of group in the world. As far as I know. That's like a marketing group. And you have written several books. So I want to ask you, what can having a book do for a person's career in terms of the name value of being a best selling author or an author making money or anything else related to a book?

Well, it's a complete game changer. And that is one of the reasons I Do what I do because it's, as we've just established, it's not a great way to make a living. You can't go into that for, you know, you've got to know why you're going into it. A lot of people go into it because they just want to die having written a book. They want a legacy. It is the best way to create a legacy. But in terms of everything, everything that I've ever gotten in my career is a result of the fact that I wrote books. I, you know, I speak at colleges, I go on television. I'm speaking at your annual event. And honestly, like, let's say when we met, you had far more respect for me because I'd written these books than if I. If I was just some Joe Schmo. I mean, that's just the reality, right?

You know what?

You know what? Let me.

Let me actually speak to that. I never even put those two together, but certainly when you invited me to be on your podcast and when. I mean, that definitely had a bearing on positioning. I mean, it just did. I mean, I didn't even think about it till just now. Like, you know, people like, all this marketing stuff doesn't work at this position. Well, obviously. Yes, it does. And it's working all the time, no matter what. If you want to, you know, admit it or not, it's. It's true.

So, yeah, you can see it in. In casual conversation when someone's like, oh, this is blah, blah, blah. Oh, this is blah, blah, blah, and she's written this book. It's just a different perception. The truth is, I mean, almost everyone I meet either tells me that they want to write a book or they have a book in them or whatever it is. It's a dream for a lot of people out there. And so. And it's so doable. I always say this, like writing a book and quitting smoking. If I'd known how easy they were going to be, I would have done them 10 years before. The PR on how hard it is is just so completely not true. And what's interesting to me in doing this coaching program is all the people I take to, 10 people at a time, all 10 of have been sitting on top of books for years and years and years telling themselves they couldn't do it. The program ends September 1st, and they've all got to turn in their book proposals to me. And then one of them gets a meeting with a lit agent and a publisher. They're all finishing. You know, these are all people who told me they couldn't do it. People need accountability. They need guidance, they need direction. You know, if you sit there and Google, how do I become a writer? You're going to get, you know, 10,000 different suggestions you need. It's sort of. Don't you think, with marketing, it's like they sort of say, study one school of thought. Don't go and get courses by 10 different people, because you got to follow one person specifically, and then you can grow from there. Do you know what I mean?

Yeah, yeah, totally. You know what? I just got this thought and I actually. This can be completely taken out of context, so I will apologize to some people because this may sound super offensive to somebody, especially those that have put years into getting a formal education. I actually think with the right subject matter, with the right intention and the right strategy behind it, writing a book could do far more for you than a college degree in many cases, and can be completed in a fraction of the time with a fraction of the money, as would learning marketing. I mean, hell, I have people that listen to. I love marketing, that have become millionaires, that have done nothing but listen to the strategies we give on my podcast, and they have to pay anything for it except just listen. That being said, I sit and think about all of my friends that are very successful. Many of them have used the book as the seed, as the vehicle to position their business, what they do, their expertise, what they're selling, and it has brought them far more revenue, far more opportunities. It's like. It's like fishing. It's like a bait that fishes for opportunities. You can do so much with a book, and you're frankly, more. I know a lot of people that are way more respected for being a book author than having a college degree, that they might be a doctor because they wrote a book. And then you take someone who. Like a doctor that writes a book that adds a whole nother level on top of their. Their education.

I mean, absolutely. I mean, it depends on what your goal is. Obviously, a lot of people, you know, I personally got almost nothing out of college because I was drunk the whole time. It was a complete waste of money. I managed to retain almost nothing. And, you know, there are people who went to my college who had got a fantastic education, but yeah, in terms of. In terms of getting respect in the eyes of the world, yeah, I don't want to offend anybody either. But I tell you, a lot more people respect me for having books than for having graduated from Trinity College. But it really does depend on what your reason for Wanting to do those things. No, of course.

I mean, yeah, if you're going to write books on jokes and everything, unless you become a world famous comedian, it's a completely different thing. So again, it has to be in the right context. But I just thought about that right now going, wow, you know, I mean, like, really what does move the dial? And what moves the dial is words. I mean, you can communicate with thousands or millions of people with words. And I mean, and I would even put words into video and audio. And by being a writer, though, you get better at all of those other things. I mean, I still think the workhorse is the written word. You know, that's, that's just how I, you know, that's just, that's how, how it's worked for me in my life and my experience and seeing people that have really, you know, been able to, been able to really move the dial. And like Gary Halbert, who I first learned copywriting from, he said that, you know, any problem in the world can be solved with the right sales letter and what the ingredients of a sales letter are. The right words weave together in a, in a specific way. So when it comes.

No, go ahead, I don't want to interrupt you, but I, but to adjunct to that is this idea, you know, this weird thing I stumbled into, which is storytelling. You know, people, a lot of people don't want to read and, you know, I forget what the statistics are, but with books, I think it's like 80% of books people don't finish that they buy. And so one thing I realized was that, you know, the importance of communicating in as many ways as you can, you know, and you and I both know that because we have podcasts. But, you know, I started to do this, put on a storytelling show here in LA where sober people got up and told tales of their most drunken and disgusting and debaucherous experiences. And they're funny. And then I started to realize, you know, I've been doing that show for two years, how much better I felt about my experiences. You know, sort of when people laugh, you know, they're relating. And then that's when I developed this thing called therapeutic performing. And now I'm going into treatment centers and spiritual venues and showing the people how to take their, like, most difficult experiences and make them into stories. And that's exactly what it is. It's the writing training that gave me the ability to do that and to sort of just start looking everywhere for different mediums. You know, if I could write songs, I would do that too, but I can't.

Okay, so I hear that I may, I actually do. But. So most of your writing has been about addiction and recovery. And so, I mean, the obvious, I guess why is that? Is because you were an addict and you got into recovery. But can you actually make a business out of talking and writing about addiction to recovery? I mean, it's kind of a loaded question because I think I know the answer.

Yes, yeah, exactly. I mean, I'm sort of living proof. And now there are people that in the last 10 years, I've now seen that. But I started doing it because I'm not that interesting a person. And I sort of felt like my addiction and recovery. I say that in a self deprecating way. I know how interesting I am. But I realized that it was the most fascinating thing for me because addiction is not what people think it is. It's so much as you and I talk about it, so much about trauma and so much about the reasons why people drink and use. And I think so many people out there think of it as just for me, I thought I was having fun even though I was borderline suicidal for many, many years. That is interesting to me. So I write about what's interesting to me. So that's how I started doing it. I'm a sort of shameless kind of oversharer. So it never occurred to me that I should be embarrassed writing about it or talking about it. And then I accidentally sort of stumbled into this world where it is a career. And I now know people who are, who are, you know, tons of people who are writing books about this. In my program of 10 people, five of them are doing addiction memoirs. And the truth is it's like everybody's recovering from something. It may not be addiction, it may be an illness, it may be a mental illness, it may be anxiety, it may be a toxic relationship. But everybody's got a story to tell about that, I believe.

Well, and that's why everyone should really check out geniusrecovery.com that Anna, very, very involved and so enormously helpful. And you'll see a lot of her writing and a lot of her recommendations and things on geniusrecovery.com as we continue to build that out to help people with recovery. This makes me think about what to share. I mean, I think a lot of people don't do stuff because they're afraid of rejection. Just what we talked about earlier. And you know, people that would be afraid to speak publicly or to open their mouths or to offer an opinion and get Judged and get shot down and get rejected in a lot of ways. If you're going to put words down on paper or video or wherever and share them with the world, then you open yourself up for, oh, you're going to look foolish. And so my question is, you take an addiction book, a memoir, writing about your life. I mean, there are some very dark things where I'd be like, God, I mean, it took me a long time before I could ever publicly talk about having a sexual addiction, you know, and all the things that, you know, go along with that and the behaviors that go along with that and the shame. And so these silent battles that people that really commit suicide or live their lives mired in addiction and the pain and, you know, which I believe, you know, as my friend Gabor Mate's, really helped me a lot to understand this. Addiction is a response to trauma. And these people that are fighting their silent battles, if they're an addict or not, there's things that, you know, if they could just say them would probably be freeing. But can they say them without being judged or ridiculed? Because some people have written things that they've gotten crucified for writing. So what are the boundaries? I mean, how do you know what to write about, and how do you think about what to share, what not to share, and to be powerful in your writing versus just rambling and, you know, writing a crazy, unedited journal about, you know, negativity in publishing it? I mean, what are some. What's some structure you could talk about?

Well, it's a great question because it's something that I. Only later in my career did I realize I wasn't so comfortable sharing some of the things I shared early on, you know, because I sort of broke out as a sex, dating, and relationship writer accidentally. I got this job. I wrote a story for Playboy magazine. And you might not even know this in, like, 2002. And they shot me for the magazine, like, not nude, but kind of. And that story blew up, and it was optioned and made into a reality show pilot. And suddenly the Today show is like, oh, you can give sex advice on tv. And so I just sort of said, oh, you'll pay me okay. And I got on this show called Attack of the Show. And for three years, I gave sex advice and I wrote sex columns and I did all this stuff. And it turns out that I'm not that comfortable sharing all of that stuff. And, you know, I'm not nearly as into sex as that would suggest. I remember a good friend of Mine came in, I have a. A queen size bed. He walked in, he goes, your bed's so small. I was like, what do you think? I have orgies every night on a California king, you know? And so I realized that really wasn't me. And I really do. The writers I work with, I do urge them to really think about what they're comfortable sharing and what they're not, because you can't really take it back. I mean, it gets buried and all of that. And, you know, I made a conscious decision that I wanted to be talking about recovery and not sex anymore. And I was sort of able to transition and able to use those media contacts that I developed for that. But I think it really, really clear and really think about if you're. Whoever the person you least want to know this thing about you were to read this, would you be okay? Would you be able to look them in the eye?

If.

No, don't write it, don't. But I also think that I have now watched a lot of people who I know, either because I published them on sites or they're, or they're writers I've worked with who've broken through that fear of, especially about addiction, putting it out there, feeling like they're going to be so judged and so shamed. And they put the story that they published on Facebook and everybody tells them how brave they are and how amazing they are. And, you know, it's a new level of freedom. So I don't think that people have any idea how not judged they're gonna be. You know, how, how. You know, most addicts, it's like people. Everybody knew you were an addict probably, so they're not gonna judge you for being sober. They're gonna. Or being in recovery. They're gonna think that's awesome because you're finally taking care of it.

Yeah. And, you know, it is interesting too, because I. Every single day, it's. It's a new level of wow. Awareness. Because I cannot tell you. I mean, you know, I mean, you've been doing this for a long time and you're in the field. Just the types of people and the people themselves that reach out to me that are colleagues, that are famous, that feel safe because I have said something publicly or they heard me talk about it and they don't know how to do it. And they ask me, you know, they use me as like a sounding board. Do you think it'd be okay if I say this and they'll, they'll come to me with this built up fear of like what they have to admit to a partner or what they have to say to someone. And I'm like, you're worried about that? I mean, like, really? But then I have to put myself in their shoes of knowing that, you know, just the man. I mean, they're like, shame, cripples people, fear of rejection, magnifying. What you think is such a horrible thing in so many cases is just the human condition. And when you do put yourself out there and you can guide and direct people and you can do it in a very powerful, compelling way, I mean, it gives you real strength and real confidence. And I'm going through a stage right now where I'm like, wow. I don't want people to look at me like I have my shit totally together because I have really bad days. I mean, I get triggered a lot. I. And I struggle, you know, I mean, there are, you know, life is not always, you know, sunshining kittens. I mean, it's. There are days that are very hard internally, while externally, you know, it seems like life is so grand. And, you know, I mean, I just. The awareness though. But anyway, but my point is, is just being able to tell your story and how you do it. You have no idea how impactful it can reach certain people. And that's what I'm seeing. You know, now that all this marketing I've been doing, I want to take that marketing and apply it towards, you know, reducing human suffering and hopefully saving lives and changing the way people think about and treat people that struggle with addictions. And none of that would be possible if I don't put it in writing, if I don't do it. So. So let's talk about.

Well, one thing I was going to say too is you've had this experience of going to places where you're giving talks about marketing and you veer into talking about addiction. And that's what everybody comes up and talks to you about.

Exactly. Yeah. Yeah. That's been one of my biggest insights is I was at a. And I've talked about this. I don't know how much I've talked about it on a podcast, but I went and spoke at a conference that had 1,000 business owners from my buddy Vern Harnish in San Antonio. It was this scale up summit that he does with Fortune magazine. And there's a thousand people there. The average business there was $20 million a year. So these were very successful companies. And I spent an hour and 15 minutes with a buddy of mine. We were up on stage talking about marketing And I spent maybe two minutes talking about addiction. And we were early on in the, you know, the first day of this conference, it was a two day conference. And for the rest of the time, nine out of 10 people that came up and talked to me were asking me about addiction, not about marketing. Although every book that I had there, we had a book for everyone in the audience and they were gone. I mean they cleaned out all my books and we, and this is a pre release version of my, of my marketing book, of all things, since we're talking about writing, which I haven't even released yet at the time that we're doing this podcast. And it just made me realize there's no way in hell I could have ever reached that audience if I was just an addiction guy, because they're not going to invite some addiction guy to a business conference. And so it's, it's really making me see that man. I mean this is so. There's so many people that struggle with this. And yeah, that's, yeah, that's what, it's.

A platform because it's like if you're talking to six people, you're not going to make an impact. And I think that's what I realized sort of in the last couple years is that increase the audience so that you can make a bigger impact.

Totally, totally. You absolutely can and you will. So let's talk about how to do it. Like how do we get good at it? And I know that there's no way in a podcast you're going to be able to do that. So I would really give, you want to have you give suggestions on how does one get good at this skill? How do they start it? And you are more than welcome to talk about the program that you offer because I would highly endorse anyone learn anything they could from you about writing. I mean, since period of time that I've known you, it's made me a better writer and a better communicator. Let me ask you this first. Do you believe writing can help people's personal as well as, you know, their professional lives? It's not just, I don't want this to sound about, oh, let's just make money and write a book because it's going to do that. But like, what does it do for you as a, as a person?

Well, for me it's the number one healing technique. I mean, to me it's the only thing I know of that I've had experience with firsthand. That helps both professionally and personally. You know, from the time I was seven. I was keeping journals, and I wasn't writing on days where I was just so happy I was writing, you know, I learned how to take my feelings there. And I think a lot of people do, certainly a lot of little girls. And then as I grew up, you know, that became a solace for me, and I majored in creative writing. And my stories were about, you know, I'm a mentally ill dad, and they were stories about that. And then, you know, I got. I'm in 12 step, and so I get introduced to 12 step, and they're telling me I've got to do this fourth step and I've got to do all this writing. I was thrilled. I was thrilled to go to a notebook, you know, because. Because that's how I make sense. I can sit here and I can talk about, you know, like, I'm a big believer in therapy and talk therapy and all of that stuff, but I come to epiphanies that I could never come to by talking, by just putting pen to paper. And I actually. A lot of times I actually literally put pen to paper and don't do it on the computer because it's. It helps me somehow heal a little bit more. But yet to me, it's the ultimate healing technique. And, you know, that's why on. On my good days, when I realized how lucky I am, the fact that I get to do something for a living, that both heals me on a personal level and, you know, and I can do professionally and I can help other people to do, is sort of the ultimate satisfaction.

Yeah. Yeah. So what if you hate to write? What if someone's listening to this right now? We. They've managed to listen this far into this episode, and they're like, I just never have gotten it. It just doesn't feel good to me. I don't like it. I don't know what to say. I can't. I just don't feel like I can do it. You gotta encounter this a lot, I'm sure.

You know, what's funny is I almost never do because everybody I know wants to write and thinks they can write and all of that stuff. I mean, if you hate it, you shouldn't do anything you hate. You should contact me, and I'll hook you up with a ghostwriter. I've written books for people who feel that way, and I get it, but I think that if there's anybody who has any desire, any inkling, it is so much easier than they think it is with proper guidance. But it's not for everybody. And that is why ghostwriters exist.

Okay, so let's talk about proper guidance. Guide me through a taste of what you actually teach people to do and how you do it. If someone signed up for your writing course as an example, you, you're obviously going to take. And I know you do it in very small groups and I know there's a lot of one on one attention. So you are literally not selling a video course. And go ahead and watch this. I mean, people can buy courses like that online. They can watch YouTube videos for that stuff. I mean, you literally guide and take people under your wings and you teach them how to write. What the hell do you teach? What do you teach them to do?

Well, first of all, there's two levels. There is the coaching program, but you can also just get the videos that we use in the coaching program. But yeah, the coaching program is complete one on one attention. I'm literally walking you through it. But everybody, what we start with is how to write an essay. There's a very specific formula on all the essays that are published on, you know, on Salon, on Thought Catalog, on all the, you know, Huffington Post, on all the sites out there right now. And it's 1000 to 1200 words. And it's a personal essay follows a very specific format. It's like, what happened? What did I learn? And so I guide people through that. And then once their essays get to the place where they're publishable, I guide them through submitting them and submitting them to places that mainstream places that will publish them, some of which pay, some don't. And you sort of say, are you doing it for the paycheck or the prestige at first? Do it for the prestige. Do it so that when you're writing your book proposal, you can say, I've been published on Salon, Huffington Post, and, you know, slate.com. so I walked them through that. And in terms of, you know, finding your brand and finding your genre and your topic and building a website that promotes that, and then, and then the rest of it is how to write a book proposal. It's like, here's how you do an intro and an overview. Here's how you do your marketing plan, here's how you do your market analysis section where you compare your book to successful books that are out there. And, you know, and every month focuses on a different aspect of that. And then the last month is, here's how you get an agent. Here's, you know, and there's tons of bonuses. It's sort of like, here's a pitch letter. Here's, you know, I provide a list of the websites that take unsolicited submissions with contact information and all of that stuff. So that's, that's the process. And so people can get the individual, they can get the one on one coaching, they can get the videos, or they can just get all the bonuses. So it's three different levels.

I love it. I love it. No, that's really cool too. And you know, that actually shows a lot about where the focus and the emphasis is, which is like, not. Let's figure out how to spend a long time writing a book and then figure out how to sell it. Let's figure out how to actually get your book, you know, bought if you want to go down that route. So that, that is a marketing sort of direction as much as it is. Let's teach you how to write.

Yeah.

Since you mentioned creativity, what do you think is more creative writing or marketing?

Marketing by a long shot. It's really interesting to me that to me, writing at this point is just very, you know, it's sort of old hat to me. And I find marketing so fun because marketing can mean so many things. And, you know, my excitement comes from when I can sort of connect dots. It's like, you know, I have this storytelling show, then I came up with this therapeutic performing. Now I have a podcast. And I was like, oh my God, you know what I'm going to do? I'm going to take audio of the last few storytelling shows and make them into individual podcast episodes and we get those transcribed and I'm going to put them in my newsletter. Like, I find that super creative and super, super fun. And I don't know if it's just. I've been writing for so long that it's just not a challenge anymore, but I think marketing is a lot more fun.

Yeah, well, I would have to agree with you there. But they go together. I mean, they're selling, Let me say it this way. They're speaking to teach, and then there's speaking to sell, and there's writing to teach and there's writing to sell. And I think not. I think I know you can do both depending on how you structure. Do you, do you differentiate between writing when you're trying to persuade versus writing when you're trying to teach or educate or how do you think about it?

I want to make sure I understand. So you mean sort of the copywriting versus the sort of more.

Yeah. Like for instance, let's take the inside of a Book, like a hardcover book, not like just a Kindle, but like the inside of a book. They would write things or on the back cover or in a book release piece, something to get people to buy the book. And then there's the actual topic of the book, you know. Yeah, so that's what I'm referring to.

I mean, I think that that's what I like. That's what's becoming more interesting to me. And it's like, you know, you took me to your friend's house who's a copywriter. I've never seen a writer's house look that nice. So clearly the writing of how to sell something is so much more important. And, you know, I know book jackets are all written by the writers. You know, we, you know, I've written all my book jackets for all six books. And you sort of are like in this tour de force, you know, acclaimed novelist Anna David. And it's like, I'm the one writing it. And so I always read those knowing that it's just like a bio, you know, the person wrote it or just writing it in the third person. And you know, I gotta say, publishers don't seem to know much about selling. If they did, then they wouldn't leave it up to the writers to do all of that. And the reason that I tell the writers I work with, build up your social media, build up your audience, build up your newsletter list, because the publisher is not going to do much for you. The publisher gives you a lot of credibility, but they don't go sell your books for you.

Yeah. And once, once someone learns that, then they can have one thing that is, I always say, you know, and I learned this early on in my career, two things that you don't delegate in business. One is the checkbook, and the second is the marketing. Unless you got a real handle on it and you have measures on it. Part of being responsible is knowing what areas of business that you just totally take ownership for and you don't leave it up to chance.

Right.

You're just going to be, you're going to be so much more effective if you just take responsibility for certain aspects of the business. Knowing what you know now, and what would you have told yourself before you were a quote unquote successful writer that would have shaved off learning curve years, stress, anxiety, unnecessary opportunity cost. I mean, any, anything that if you could have gone back and said, here's. Let me give you, you know, let me give you years of wisdom that I have condensed down what would be some of the recommendations you would have given your younger self.

I would have said find a, find a mentor, find a system. It's, you know, it is so much simpler than, than you actually think it is. I might not have done six books, I might have done fewer, but I, but I would have really studied. You know, the thing is the market doesn't work the way we want it to work. We want to believe the most brilliant writer is the one that sells their book. Well, not really. The good writer with the amazing platform is actually going to sell a book before the amazing writer. So I would, you know, and it's, and it's not, you know, it's not rocket science, but I think you need to sort of follow a system. I would have, you know, I would have looked for a mentor early in my career. I never really had that. You're my first mentor. I'm sorry, I don't mean to be cheesy, but whether you like it or not, but I would have found a writing mentor like one who knew that field and I would have done what that, I would have followed what that person said or did. And I, you know, I would have been very methodical about it. I would have really looked at what do I want out of this? And to look at, you know, like I said, a book gives you the kind of credibility you can't buy. Like you said, you can't get it from a college degree. So why do I want to have a book? And you know, do I want to go speak? Do I want to go be on tv? Do I want to be a thought leader? And you know, and I would have, honestly, and I'm not just saying this, I created the program I wish had existed so that I didn't waste 15 years.

Yeah. Yeah. Well, you know what, that is a great point because when I started my Believe it or not my course teaching carpet and upholstery cleaners how to build and grow and market their business, I would say to myself, I am going to create what I wish had existed when I first started this business. I wouldn't have had to gone through, I went through a couple of years of pure hell. It wasn't a decade, but I literally went into debt. And I just worked 14, 16 hour days doing hard manual labor. And I would pay money to do that by racking up debt because I didn't know what I was doing. And once I learned how to do it, I was like, okay, what do I need to share with someone that really wants to figure this out? Because I figured this thing out. And now I'm going to share this recipe with other people. And it's like once you have a success recipe and you can share this with people that don't, I mean you're giving them a massive gift by, you know, having a success recipe. And so that's so I love hearing you say that because you know, I created this things had I wished, you know, because we're converts of our own system, you know, I mean that's what we are. So is there anything that I didn't ask you that I should have asked you? Because after if there is, then I'm just going to say tell people how to get training from you. Because that seems to be the most obvious thing for anyone here that liked what we talked about and wants to get better at it is to go to you. So is there anything that I didn't ask you that I should have?

No. That was very, very thorough and fun. So yeah, I mean anybody who's interested in this program, I don't know when this is posting but I'm opening it up again. We're wrapping up this program. I think I'm going to open it up again in January. But if people sign up for my newsletter, you go to annadavidcoaching.com and I have newsletters packed with writing advice, packed with interviews with best selling authors. So people who sign up for the newsletter, which you can do in Anna davidcoaching are going to get a wealth of information and they're going to be the first people who are notified when this program opens up. You know, I also am doing some, some ghostwriting and some negotiations for ghostwriting so people can contact me directly if they're interested in that. And I'm just annaaannadavid.com yeah.

And Anna with two n's. A n, n. Yeah. Okay, so okay, so let me get this right. So you have a training that's coming up soon and then that is that like real soon based on where we're at today?

Well, it depends on when this is posting, what I'm gearing up. I also don't. A few people from my program may sell books which is going to sort of open up the floodgates like to big publishers. So part of it is unknown right now the dates for that. But that's why I just tell everybody sign up because I don't know the specific date of the launch. And so if you sign up, you're going to know it. Another thing by the way that I should mention is on my Facebook page I'm now doing Facebook live interviews every Tuesday and Thursday. On Tuesdays at 4 o' clock Pacific Time. On Tuesdays, it's with a sort of recovery person, you know, a recovery luminary. And then on Thursdays, it's with an author. And those conversations have been great. And, you know, if you sign up for my newsletter list, you get notified about those and you get the videos of those conversations after they take place.

Well, I'm going to put this episode up. I'll put this episode up sooner than later. Just so for anyone that wants to jump on this right away, they can do that. Because I know you have a training that sounds like it's going to be up real soon. So I'll try to position this in a way so people that want to do this sooner rather than later will have an opportunity to do that if they listen to this podcast at the time that it comes out. Also, I want to remind people that because a lot of Genius Network members listen to this, Anna David will be giving a awesome talk at this year's Genius Network annual event, which is Genius Network events with an S geniusnetworkevents.com and it's not about writing, it is about. I'm super excited about the talk that you're going to give. I think it's going to blow people away, and it's awesome. And me and Anna are literally right in discussions right now. We haven't signed the agreement yet about doing a call through a book together on addiction and recovery. So if that ends up happening, which I'm pretty positive it will, then you will hear about me and Anna doing that, and it will be amazing. And one more time, give out your website, Anna. And then any famous last words.

It's annadavidcoaching.com and my only famous last words is meeting gel polish has changed my life. Oh, my God, that's so cheesy.

You know, I mean, what could be a better thing than anyone could possibly say on my podcast? But no, I mean, I'm super happy that we've become friends and you're a rock star, and I'm really happy that we're able to do this podcast for people. And I hope that you are an awesome, awesome writer. And so if people want to even get an example of what good writing is, just go read some articles from Anthony. I'll tell you this, too. You wrote one of the things that I think even kind of clenched our friendship is I invited you down as a journalist to literally watch one of my smaller Genius Network Meetings. And what I said to you, I said, you know, write whatever you feel. This is not a puff piece. If you like it, you can say that. If you think it's crap. If you, you know, And I literally gave you full reign to write about whatever the hell it is that you want to write about. You wrote an article for Huffington Post, and when I saw it, I was like, wow. I mean, this, like, I mean, it made me feel good because you actually really liked the meeting. But it also, you know, I mean, it just. Your writing abilities are incredible. And so many people have read that article, and they really understand what happens at Genius Network. And including the people that. That have, you know, are in Genius Network had read that, and they're like, wow, she is really good at articulately describing what the hell goes on in that room. And so I, you know, that's kind of.

Well, thank you. And that was in we. The title is Genius Network a Genius Scam. You know, it looked like it was going to be a real, you know, slam piece. And I have to say, having been able to go to two of those meetings, the people I have met through Genius Network are not only just like some of the kindest people, but they've, you know, I don't even tell you just the impact some of them have had. The people that, you know, even in the last few days, I've been interviewing a couple Genius Network members for this piece I'm doing for entrepreneur.com and they're just generous and smart, and it's, you know, I'm really passionate about this topic right now. So it's been. It's been just kind of dreamy to meet all of these people.

Awesome. Awesome. Well, thank you, Anna, and to all of our listeners, I really hope this helps. This helps give you more direction, confidence, capabilities in your writing and motivates you to actually put more emphasis on this. And if you need any sort of training that you sign up for Anna's thing, because you will not regret it, and share your comments and share this with anyone that you think would benefit from listening to it. And if you currently do not subscribe to my podcast, then go onto itunes and subscribe so that you can get this on a regular basis. And please review it. I'd appreciate that. And so thank you again, Anna.

Thank you, Jo. So much fun. I really, really, really appreciate it. So fun.

You got it. Thanks.

Take care. Okay, bye.

Thanks for listening to this episode of I Love Marketing. If you'd like to learn more about the Genius Network annual event, please visit geniusnetworkevents.com that's geniusnetworkevents dot com if you'd like access to the full interview, the show notes, and the special resources for this episode, please visit ilovemarketing.com 303 that's ilovemarketing.com 303.