The Neuroscience of Time with Olympian John K. Coyle

I made the Olympic team. I went to the Olympics. I got a silver medal. I was standing on the podium deciding if I'm going to keep skating for 4 more years because I'm 26 years old and I'd be 30 and that's really old and I don't have any money and I've never had a real job. And I decided to stay for 4 more years because at that time I was in my head a first loser.

That's one small step for man. Liftoff!

We have a liftoff! We choose to go to the moon not because they are easy, But because they are. I have a dream. You can't handle the truth.

7, 6, 5, 4, 3, 2, 1. Super, super, super, super, Super You.

Hi, this is Kelsey with Equal Man Studios. I'm one of the producers on the Super You podcast. Today we have a great show. Eric sits down with Olympian and Emmy winner John K. Coyle. He and Eric cover chronoception and how to get more out of time, John's road to the Olympics and overcoming a late start to professional speed skating, and winning a silver medal and the perspective shift from first loser to becoming a successful coach, analyst, and author. We thank you for listening to the Super U Podcast. Enjoy the show. John K. Coyle is an Olympic silver medalist, Emmy Award-winning NBC Sports producer, and internationally recognized keynote speaker who brings a unique blend of creativity, strategy, and storytelling to every stage. He built his career as a Fortune 500 executive leading customer experience and innovation initiatives before turning his focus to helping organizations unlock human potential through design thinking.

Well, welcome to the show, John. I know the audience— I'm super excited to chat with you, and the audience is super excited to learn.

I'm very glad to be here. Thanks for having me.

No, no, of course. Uh, so let's first— you've got such an amazing background, as we just went over. I mean, you've got an Emmy, you've got a silver medalist, you know, you're an author, you're out there speaking, you're helping, you're a professor at different schools. So, a lot to unravel in a short amount of time. But we'll start with just with your current career. How much have you been able to go back on that training that helped you win the silver medal? First of all, just walk us through super high level, I guess, just to take a pause, like your comic book kind of quick. Where'd you grow up? You know, where'd you go to school? High school, and then family life, and then What put you on the path? Then obviously go over the silver medal and then the Emmy, uh, then walk us through where you are today. You gotta do that in a short amount of time. It's hard to do because you've accomplished so much, but if you could just bring us up to speed, that'd be great.

Grew up in Michigan, small parochial school. Went to Stanford because I got in, uh, dumbest kid there for sure. Uh, struggled my first couple of years, uh, but I was eventually, you know, sort of caught up with my classmates, and I was training to to be a speed skater while in California with no coach, no training program. And I managed my senior year in college to get 12th place in the world in the sport with little to no support. So when I graduated, I joined the Olympic team full-time, and I, I was fairly certain I would go from 12th to 6th to 1st in the 2 years I had to prepare. But the team put me on a path of fixing my weaknesses, which turns out are many and varied. And that didn't work out for me. I went from 12th to 34th to not even making the US team 2 years later, finishing 30th in the same US trials. And so, at that point, I applied my design thinking background and said, wait, am I solving the right problem here? Maybe the right problem to solve isn't how do I fix my weaknesses, maybe it's how do I design for my limited strengths? And so, I quit the team, got sport trained all on my own for a whole year, showed up a year later to this exact same meet in a sport where hundreds of seconds determine first from second. My first race back, I broke the world record by a second, the U.S. record by 5 seconds, and went on to set every single U.S. record back to back, which is to say, if you're trying to fix your weakness—

Cool.

Weaknesses at this point in life, that ship has sailed.

Wow. Because that was a little late for an athlete, right, to start?

Yeah.

I mean, yeah, yeah. I was, you know, in college till 21. Most people that are in my sport are full-time starting in their late teens.

Wow. Wow. And then what was the unlock? What would you say? Obviously, the weaknesses, but what was the strength or what? And you just did it on your own? No coaches for that year? And then you come back and break the world record? That's insane. So, what With your design thinking, what— you went to your strengths, but what was it? What was the one thing that's like, that was the keystone right there?

So, in my sport of short track speed skating, if you recall, everybody's crashing all the time and they're skating on this little tiny hockey rink going 33 miles an hour. Uh, everybody would skate a very wide track to reduce the G-forces. And as a sprinter, as a, as a non-aerobic athlete, as an anaerobic athlete, I realized that I could just go less far by pivoting each corner, going super sharp into each corner, which requires a huge burst of power, the only thing in the world I'm actually good at. And so I didn't go any faster really, I just went less far. So I changed my technique to skate a very, very tight track, which required a huge burst of power, which is the only thing I'm personally capable of. So it worked out.

Interesting. So as you enter the turn, it's just like driving a car that you want to accelerate through the turn, it gives you better grip.

Yep, that's the same thing.

Interesting. And then that actually, counterintuitive, decreases your chances to wipe out or no? Would it? Is it risky?

For most, it increases your chance.

Yeah.

So, I mean, ice is, it will break away, right? So, the more pressure you're putting on it, the more risk you have of it breaking away. But I was able to sort of master that little trick and that served me well for the next few years.

No, that's awesome. Did they name, they might have, I don't know. Did they name that move after any move after you? Like, like, Was it Greg Louganis has the gainer, the backflip off the—

I wish. No, that was always called the pivot. But, you know, the sprinters in the sport were marginalized for a long time because of the way we were just getting these longer, bigger tracks at higher speeds, more aerobic—

Okay.

—of activity. And so I think, you know, a few sprinters got their chance after this to resume their, you know, their own way of competing in our sport.

Yeah, that's incredible. And so then you went on to get a silver medal at Lillehammer, right? Was it?

That's correct, yes. Yeah. Wow, that's amazing.

feeling to get on the podium?

You want the honest answer?

Yeah.

The honest answer is I was not present. We got off the ice after the race, we put on our awards coats, put on our shoes, walked back out still breathing hard. My thoughts were, hmm, I hope I don't get drug tested. I don't have to pee. Am I going to keep skating for 4 more years? I don't know. I'll be 30. That's what I was thinking.

Okay.

But with time and, you know, And you'll ask me a question at the end. I'll explain how that all came full circle a few years later.

No, no, that's awesome. And, uh, so you didn't even go on the podium. Was it because you missed it? Like they were playing this?

No, no, we went on the podium, but we had very little time. Like today, they actually— you wait 24 hours these days before—

Oh, okay.

They give you a chance to process. Uh, but back in the day, um, it was right away.

No, that's great. And you mentioned real quick that you grew up in Michigan. What part of Michigan?

I grew up in West Bloomfield, Michigan.

Nice. And then where did you go to high school?

It was called Southfield Christian School, which is a little parochial school not far away from West Bloomfield.

Yeah, yeah. I grew up right next to you in Rochester Hills. So it's a small world. I was just up there for Thanksgiving. So it's great.

Michigan people are good people.

Yeah, good people. And my wife likes to say— she's from Colombia— she likes to say everyone in the Midwest is big and nice. So.

Fair enough.

All right. So then you get the silver medal and then walk us through how you won the Emmy.

Wow. Okay, so fast-forwarding a number of years, I, I was invited to be the analyst for NBC for the Olympics, which I'll be reprising my role for the 6th time, I think it is, here in a couple of months. Um, and I'm the analyst, so I sit in the booth with the commentator and the color commentator, but I don't speak on camera. Like, you don't hear my voice. I tell them what to say, but you don't hear me. However, every year that I work, I write a couple of features. Features are those short segments that go between tell you about the backstory of a skater or what have you. So every year I write some, and every year they think about producing them, and every year they mostly don't. But I've had 3 of them or 4 of them produced. And I wrote one for the Olympics in Beijing where I compared the physics of short track speed skating to NASCAR. And as it turns out, they're identical when it comes to G-forces. It's roughly 3 Gs in the corners. But we don't have 4 tires, right? It's 1 leg. You're never on 2 legs at 1 time. So I wrote this feature comparing Short Trek to NASCAR. And my producer's like, yeah, we're totally doing it, but we're not using you. And I was like, rude. And she said, well, Dale Earnhardt Jr. is a personal friend and he's agreed to do it. And I was like, okay, no, that's— yeah. So I coached Dale through it. And you know, he's got that thick accent. He's like, Short Trek space game. You know, that's what he talks. And so I coached him through it. He memorized the whole shtick and we produced it. It was well received, forgot all about it. I started getting emails about 2, 3 months later saying, collect your Emmy, which I deleted. And I— Oh, wow.

Okay. You thought it was spam?

Oh yeah. I deleted it for almost 2 years.

Oh, wow. That's nuts.

So 2 years later, I get an email that says, if you don't collect your Emmy, we're gonna rescind it. And I was like, I'm gonna at least follow through, right? So I followed through. Like, it seems legit. So I messaged my producer who I hadn't even talked to for a long time. And she's like, oh yeah, I put you in for that. I guess you got it. So then I filled out the forms and I got the Emmy finally, uh, 2 years later.

Oh, that's nuts. Oh man. And then you have it obviously in your house, right?

Yes, I do. It's sitting on a turning, rotating pedestal. That's a whole nother story, but maybe we'll get to that at some point.

Yeah, maybe we will. I mean, if I were you, I'd have it right in the background. That'd be— I'd have it with me all times and the medal around my neck. I mean, I assume the medal, the silver medal, you have to keep in a safe or no?

No, it's just sitting around here somewhere. Because they're quite big. I give talks. I pass it out to the audience, actually.

Oh, that's nice. Yeah, yeah. No, and then, so obviously we'll get into this. We'll jump ahead to that, I guess. So what do most people want you to speak on these days? Because you speak on a lot of things, but obviously ebbs and flows, like this is what we need right now with what's happening in the world. When they bring you in to speak as of now, what are the top couple topics?

Well, my top topic now is is the forthcoming book that I'm working on, which is called Counterclockwise: How to Slow the Acceleration of Time. And it's a deep dive. The talk and the book are about the neuroscience and psychology of time perception, and very specifically how the brain constructs time, which is out of memories.

Mm-hmm.

So, memories are the currency of time. More memories equals more time. And the sort of metaphor that I use is time capital. So, you know where your money is. Do you know where your time is invested? And do you know how to invest your time for the greatest returns? Most people do not. And they expect— and, you know, you know this from the financial world— you cannot expect high returns from low, short-term, low-risk investments, right? You can't. You can't put all your money in bonds or cash and expect some high returns. A lot of wealthy people seem to think that they can invest their time in low-risk, short-term investments and have high returns. It'll never happen. And so, teaching people how to invest their time for the greatest returns is really my life's work, I would say.

No, that's— yeah, you take a different perspective. Unlike productivity gurus, that's what you're more invested in, the science behind it, especially as we age, time speeds up. I saw a Supreme Court justice once was giving a talk before me talking about it's like at the end of your life, it's like the roll of toilet paper that time It goes a lot faster. So, walk us through why does it speed up as we age or what can we do to counterbalance that? Everyone listening here is now leaning in because they're like, all right, how do I get more out of my life, my day? You've already given some great advice that, hey, you know where your investments are, but do you really cognitively sit down and proactively assess where you invest in your time? So, Yeah, walk us through that for the audience. What, what can we do, uh, to live our best life, essentially?

Yeah, and the longest life experience. The term for this, by the way, is chronoception, which when it was first coined 10 years ago was not a real word yet, but now it is. Uh, and if you Google it, I get to be the second listed person behind David Eagleman, my favorite neuroscientist. But nice. The, the—

Say that again. Which— say it again for the audience.

Chronoception. Okay, that's how we experience time as humans. And the first rule of this is that The way we experience time as humans is anything but linear, right? It speeds up, it slows down, it seems to accelerate the older you get. Summers used to last forever and now they don't. What's going on here? It's a cognitive bias. Once you know why that cognitive bias exists, you can reverse it. So I will teach you and your audience in the next 10, 12 minutes how to slow, stop, and reverse the perceived acceleration of time most adults feel and experience the endless summers of youth again. You down for that?

Yes, let's go. Let's do it.

All right, let's go. So the first thing to know is that memories are the currency of time. More memories equals more time. The second thing you should know is your brain is very lazy and writing memories is very hard, so it doesn't want to do it if it doesn't have to. And so, as the older we get, when things get more routine, when they get safer and get less unique, it says, nothing new to write down here, and it doesn't. So, if you ever got to your parking garage and you don't know how you got there, well, that's because your brain shut off. It's like, nothing new to write down here. So, the first trick is we— and everybody knows this is, you know, uniqueness matters, right?

Mm-hmm.

Having some differentiator in your week and your month, at least doing some things differently, is going to be really important. The part most people don't know, it's relatively new neuroscience, is that your hippocampus is your memory writer, and yours and mine right now are writing memories about every 2 to 3 seconds. That's because everything's safe and calm. However, if an axe murderer came through your door behind you, your frame rate would go up to 20 to 30 times per second. This is the amygdala waking up and telling your brain, write memories faster. 8-year-olds' amygdalas are pretty much on full alert all the time. Everything's new, exciting, scary, fun. And the amygdala, by the way, wakes up for only 2 reasons: never do that again, or always do that again. And straight from evolution, don't die, please procreate.

Yep.

So your brain wants you to stay alive, procreate. That's what it's, you know, evolutionary impulses. So when the amygdala wakes up, you write memories, you know, 50, 60 times faster. And so that's why some risk and uncertainty combined with uniqueness is really important for memories. You also have to be present. So emotional intensity is really important. And then the flow state, if you're familiar with that, for your readers that are listeners that aren't, flow state is when you're in the zone, when you're in peak performance zone, you actually write down and recall 4 to 5 times more data than when you're not in the flow state. So now you combine amygdala-driven memories with flow state, and you're gonna recall 300 to 400 times more data per second than in a boring routine day.

Mm-hmm.

So the trick here is how do we wake up the amygdala without really almost dying. That's preferable not to always be almost dying. And so, you know, the 5 key drivers really are risk and uncertainty, uniqueness, which is different but similar, emotional intensity, being present and being fully emotionally involved, beauty— trauma also works, but let's go for beauty— and the flow state. When you combine all 5 of those things together, you're going to have the kinds of moments that have a before and after. that you will remember for the rest of your life and your time starts to feel more expansive. You do 10 of those a year, you do 10 moments a year, a year, you don't live 60 more years, you live 600. And I'm about 20 years into 2025.

Nice. I love it. And so, what would be a good first step? Obviously, there's 5 steps you have here with risk going all the way to flow.

Yeah.

For our listener, they've got their kids, they've got their routine, they're dropping them off at school. It's the same time. They're getting the lunch packed. Then, they're going to work probably. Then, they're picking the kids back up at school. What's a good manageable start for them tomorrow or even right now after they get listening to this?

I think one of the greatest things you can do is just do surprise and delights. Hey, kids, we're going somewhere. You'll find out when we get there.

Okay.

Already, that's creating some risk and uncertainty and some uniqueness, right? And it could be the ice cream store, it doesn't really matter. But I'll give you a story from a client of mine who really took this to the full limit, and he got all 5 of these things going.

Yeah.

Son's turning 12. They live in Australia. Dad's from London. Son loves dad's soccer club, followed it since he's 5. Where's the jerseys? Never been to London, never seen a game in person. Dad says, we're going somewhere, you'll find out when we get there. We're on the plane, he's like, wait, we're going to London? He's like, yes, we are, son. Why are we going there? You'll find out when we get there. They drive in the Uber to the stadium. Kid knows why they're there now. He's like, oh my God, we're gonna see a game. He's super excited. This is still not there. They go around back of the stadium. The entire team files out with a jersey for his son, which he puts on and enters the stadium and sits with them, warms up with them during the game, chats with all the players, gets his jersey signed because dad paid for his son to be the mascot. That covered all 5 bases, right? That's great. Yeah. In that story, dad can't tell the story without crying. I'm not sure who got more out of it, the son or the father, but there's a great example of the kinds of moments we can create. And I call those kairos moments. Um, the Greeks had 2 words for time. English has only one, time. It's the most common word. It's overused. Uh, chronos, clock time, is their first word. They use that 33% of the time. That's the way we use it— planes, trains, and automobiles arriving on time. Kairos, they use 67% of the time, is human time.

Yeah.

The way we actually experience time in the now. And the etymology is when everything happens at once and the trajectory is reset. And it comes from the archer releasing the arrow.

Nice.

Every once in a while we have trajectory-setting moments, and they're always in moments, right? You decided to write the first book or you didn't. You decided to go out on your own or you didn't. You decided to do the podcast, you didn't. You decided to get off at the exit or you didn't. You took the promotion across town or you didn't. You asked the woman out or you didn't. She said yes or she didn't, right? You avoided the car accident. You didn't. All these things might have Weeks and months and years leading up to it, but moments are ultimately what define our future trajectory. And being aware of that and maximizing those when they happen is really the secret.

No, I love that. The 2 different types of time. We just have one. There's— that's good. Chronos and Kairos. Now, Kairos for you, you have several because of what you've accomplished, but what's an example in your life where it kind of all aligned in that Kairos moment?

I, I'll give you that example. I'll explain one little backstory. The insight around Kairos Kronos and just the way that life is created in moments came from intuition from sports. So, in sports, in my sport particularly, hundreds of seconds usually determine first from second, right? So, the difference between the gold medal and 10th place is a couple of tenths. It's literally nothing. And, that difference ultimately resets your trajectory as an athlete. You made the team or you didn't.

Yeah.

Right? You made the Olympic team or you didn't. You got a medal or you didn't.

Yep.

Or you got a gold medal or you didn't.

Yeah.

Each one of those is fundamentally different.

Yeah.

Gold medal versus medal is vastly different. No medal versus medal is vastly different. Made the team, didn't make the team, but these are complete— in real life, I realize it's the same thing. Like, all the time we're having these moments that reset our trajectories. And so I will tell you my number one Kairos moment. I made the Olympic team. I went to the Olympics. I got a silver medal. I was standing on the podium deciding if I'm going to keep skating for 4 more years because I'm 26 years old and I'd be 30 and that's really old and I don't have any money and I've never had a real job. And I decided to stay for 4 more years because at that time I was in my head a first loser.

Yep.

I did not win. So then I trained for 4 more years and at age 30, unfortunately, I rejoined the Olympic team and started training back their way and I ended up not making the team. Not only did I not win a gold medal, I didn't make the team and I became For the next 10 years, a one-timer first loser.

Because there's science that shows that the most disappointed person at the Olympics that's there is the silver medalist because they're so close, like you just said, first loser. The bronze is happy. I'm like, I got a medal. Everyone else is like, I was here and I'm on the Olympic team. And then the silver medalist is like, oh my gosh, I was right there to get the gold. I mean, honestly, for me, I'd be like, any medal just— or being on the team would have been enough. That's amazing. But do you agree with that? That, that—

Yeah, well, that's the way I felt, right? For 10 years. It seems ridiculous now and from other people's perspective, but yeah. And then NBC, uh, 8 years later after I retired, asked me to be the analyst, and I couldn't say no to that. So I'm back at the Olympics. Yeah. So I'm back at the Olympics. I'm warmly welcomed back. Everybody knew who I was. I knew who everybody was. But still in my head, I'm a one-timer, first loser. But then the night before the gold medal round in my sport, which is always the last night of the Olympics, One of the parents of one of the athletes pulled me aside at dinner and in about 20 seconds changed the entire trajectory of my life. It's the only reason we're speaking now. So we're at the Olympics. It's the night before the gold medal round. He's sitting across from me at dinner. He said, I need to tell you something. He looked nervous and he was making me nervous. So I said, okay, what did I do? So walk away from the table, we get into the corner of the room, and he's like, I just want you to know, John, that we wouldn't be here right now if it wasn't for you. And I said, I don't know what you mean. He said, you won't remember, but 12 years ago, after you won your silver medal, you brought it to a little reception in Bay City, Michigan. I brought my son, Alex. He'd never skated before. He was 11 years old at the time. You put your medal around his neck, you sign an autograph. The next day, he joined the Bay City Speed Skating Club, and tomorrow he's skating in the gold medal final.

Wow. That's incredible.

And just like that, my entire life changed. I went from a one-timer first loser to, wow, that actually mattered.

Yeah.

Even if it's just for one person. I started getting my daughter skating. I started coaching. I kept being the analyst. And most importantly, I started speaking about it, by the way, like you. I mean, this is all I do other than write books. And I've told this story now in 20, 21 countries around the world, all because the parent had the courage to tell me something in about 20 seconds.

That's amazing. They could have let that pass by, but they took the time. And like you said, he was nervous to say it. But I mean, you probably— I would have had a hard time not crying if someone said that to me.

I was a mess. And, you know, Al, he's a great friend now, he would say, I was one beer away from not telling you anything.

There you go. Oh, and then, so you're out speaking, you're writing. What book of yours would you say would be the best for our listeners to read? And then, what book not of yours is a good book you'd recommend?

So, my book, Design for Strengths: Applying Design Thinking to Individual and Team Strengths and Weaknesses. Is my second book. And that one really is about how do you design your life for your superpower, right? If you don't know your superpower, you don't get to put on the cape.

Yeah.

I think everybody has one. But, you know, as Thoreau says, most men live lives of quiet desperation.

Yep.

Go to the grave with the song still in them.

Yeah.

Not let that be any of your listeners, right? Figure out what you're best at, do that, and all the rest will take care of itself. So, that's the one I would recommend. of mine. Counterclockwise is coming out sometime next year. My favorite book of all time is called Wind, Sand, and Stars. And it's by— my French is garbled, but Antoine de Saint-Exupéry, who is famous for another book called The Little Prince, which most of us have read. Yeah. But this is a nonfiction work of his flying in the French mails During the dawning of the aircraft. And it's absolutely terrifying and wonderful and mystical and amazing. So, that would be my pick for your group.

I like it. Wind, sand, and stars. That's fantastic. No, that's good. And then, just circling back on time or as you like to say, Kairos. So, more memories equal more time.

Yes.

So, would I be— it behooved me then, and I'm trying to get better at this, looking at my schedule. So, if I see a pocket in there or make a pocket, really, make a pocket to create something that's disrupting my normal everyday mundane, like, what can I throw in there that's going to shake it up? Whether it's for me, whether it's for my kids, is that a good approach to just go about it that way?

Yeah. And, you don't have to do this all the time. The thing about true Kairos moments when they have all 5, They're really intense. These are the kinds of things you need to recover from, you know, trying to live on the edge every day, right? I shoot for like one kairos moment a month.

Okay.

And, you know, you design for, you plan for it. International travel is probably gonna give you one anyway, so that's fine. But, you know, what can you design for you or your kids, your spouse, your loved ones that is truly memorable? And, you know, maybe it's making something completely wild for dinner, like bugs.

Yeah.

But done. Um, right. Uh, tasting the world's hottest chilies. Yeah. On my talks. Yeah. Uh, you know, but it's even sometimes it's relatively easy things, you know, surprise trips, surprise vacations. You know, one of the easiest things you can do for your spouse, uh, I've done this recently, is, you know, you go to some new vacation destination that has a view. You walk her to the view with her eyes covered.

Okay.

The reveal is much more spectacular than the slow reveal of marching towards the destination.

Yeah, that's true.

So, you know, any, any one of these 5— uniqueness, risk and uncertainty, beauty, emotional intensity, or flow state— each one individually is great. But man, when you can get all 5 together, that's when you really have a before and after. So that's, you know, what you're seeking.

No, that's good. I like it. That's really good. And I'm sure your students appreciate this as well. I know you spoke, taught at 3 other universities. Are you currently teaching right now?

I just taught 2 weeks ago. I teach at Marquette. I teach an innovation leadership program for their undergraduate school. And it's 2 4-hour sessions. And it's really, really fun. I love working with these really bright young individuals.

That's a great university in Milwaukee. It's fantastic.

That's right. You know, you know from the Midwest.

Yeah. Oh, it's really good. Now, I stay at a— when I speak there, I usually stay nearby the campus. It's a great campus. No, it's nice. No, that's great. And then from Michigan State, our coach went on, one of our assistants went on, Tom Crean went on to coach Dwyane Wade at Marquette.

Okay.

Yeah, no, it was really good. And you say the idea that stress can be good if designed correctly.

Yes. I mean, we are not designed to be in constant low-stress environment, right? That's— we perform as, you know, we know this from the Yerkes-Dodson curve from 1908. We know that people perform their best in a certain level of stress. When— and this is straight from flow studies as well— when your capacity meets the challenge, that is when you can enter the flow state.

Mm-hmm.

And very specifically, when the challenge is 3% harder than you've ever achieved before is sort of that perfect little window. And this can be anything. It could be spreadsheeting, it could be a conversation, it could be a sales call, it can be sports, music, whatever. But when the challenge and your capacity meet each other, that's when we're our best human beings. And yeah, you don't want to live at the edge all of the time.

Mm-hmm.

But, you know, the quote is— it exists for a reason. Life begins at the edge of your comfort zone, right? There's a reason. For that. Yeah, everything is safe, routine, and comfortable all the time, you will have a very, very short life.

Interesting. That's true. Yeah, it's— I like that, that it's really time, it's perception. But you have more memories, it's just you've filled that life with more time. So it makes sense. And then speaking of that, so writing— so you got your new book coming up, Asking for a Friend. When you don't feel like writing Yes. What are your tricks or what's your process, I guess, to avoid that? Because it's not writer's block. That's what I always argue. It's just that you don't feel like doing it. It's not a block usually. It's just like, you know, you're not allocating the time to do it really. But when you aren't feeling it, what are some things that we can learn to do? Whether it's writing or whether it's you want to make the speed skating team or whether you want to be first chair in band at your high school, it doesn't matter.

It's like sometimes we procrastinate.

We procrastinate because we're just afraid. Sometimes it's a failure, but we're just, ah, that's a hard thing to do. I don't want to do it. So, we push it off. We clean the house. When you feel like doing that, which we all do, how do you avoid that? Sometimes you can't, but how do you avoid it most of the time?

I've never written this article, but I really should. I think there's 3 types of procrastination. There's procrastinators, which we all admire and love, and they're not me. And those are the people that literally, like, break up a task into 10 parts and do it in order on time. We all studied with these people. We all worked with these people. We all admire these people because you could always count on them to get everything done in order on time. That is never going to be me. Then you have the traditional procrastinator, small p, that wait till the last minute. And they're not always reliable because they may not get it done. They may say, hey, I tried. I couldn't. Whatever. But I think I generally fall into this other category, what I call a capital P procrastinator, which is I just require lots of pressure to actually perform. And so unless I have a deadline, it's probably not going to get done. This was the problem with my second book. I've been tinkering around with it for a couple of years. And then my business partner at the time, Monica, she's like, okay, I want this done by January 1st. And I'm like, it's December. She's like, yeah, I think you need pressure to perform. I would like it done by January. So I wrote a book in 3 and a half weeks.

Wow.

And that's what I needed, right? So sometimes I think we need the pressure to perform. So, and artificial deadlines, you know, aren't all that useful, but if they're externally imposed, somehow you commit to something. Yes. Somebody. Yes. Then it becomes an internal and external, uh, pressure, which maybe some of the people listening to your podcast are the kind of people that are like that. So that would be my thoughts.

No, I like that. That's good advice. If it's just in your head, You got to verbalize it to someone or multiple people that hold you accountable for it.

That's right.

And so that's key. Or it's a specific deadline, like every 4 years at the Olympics, or you signed up for— people sign up for a marathon because it's like, okay, now I have to train. Otherwise, I'm going to be, as the kids say, I'm going to be cooked. I'm going to be cooked.

100%.

Yeah. Well, that's good. You had a pretty bad accident speed skating, I think, right?

I did not know. I'm thinking of a friend of mine, Steven Bradbury, who cut his leg really badly. I managed to get through 18 years on the national speed skating team and 5 years on the national cycling team without actually ever missing a day of practice.

Wow, that's really nice. And then memories are stories, and you're a great storyteller. And I believe one of your philosophies is, is if you're good at storytelling, then you live a fuller life. If you can walk us through your thoughts on that and also how any of us can become better at storytelling.

Well, if I was to leave your audience with any advice, first is to recognize that the nature of time is nonlinear. And related to that, that the value of an increment of time is not related to its duration. That's the entire précis of my book. That's the whole book in one sentence. The value of an increment of time is not related to its duration. And so, designing moments that are worth a week, a month, a year is kind of the way to move forward this. I'll tell you a quick story. I decided to test this out, the 5 things, right? Risk and uncertainty, uniqueness, emotional intensity, physical intensity as well, flow state, and beauty. I decided to run with the bulls a few years ago in Pamplona. And so, I lined up, they shot the gun, the firework, and the bulls came pounding over the top of this hill and they're coming right at me. I'm in this left-hand turn. Because I only turn left. And as they pass me, I jump down and I just follow the swinging tail. And I see the hooves glinting in the sunlight and their muscles steaming. And you've got 6 steers that are 1,800 pounds and 6 bulls running horns waist height that could literally kill you in a quarter of a second. And I'm just following the swinging tail. And we go into the courtyard and all these people are piling out of the way and people are falling in slow motion. And we go down in the tunnel and I see everybody going down in slow motion. And I clamber up and over some people as the bulls are Skittering like this, and then we run into the tunnel and I spin around with 25,000 people on their feet. The entire thing took 18 seconds.

Yeah, nuts.

But in memory, that's a year.

Yeah.

Right? That is an indelible before and after moment. I will never forget, you know, July 10th, 2018. It's never going to leave my psyche, right? So, that's the real trick, right, is we live for stories. We're hardwired for stories. And by the way, all stories have a plot. All plots have a crisis. If you don't have a crisis, you don't have a plot. You don't have a plot, you don't have a story. Therefore, you must design fear and suffering into your vacations. That's just logic. Yeah.

No, no. I mean, you're so spot on. It was because I was fortunate to run with the bulls and it was slow motion, like you said. Yeah. I wasn't as sharp as you were. We were on the wrong turn and I didn't follow the last bull. I thought it was the last bull. Story for another day. But yeah, you could see like one guy got hit really bad by us, but it's slow motion up in the air, 360. But yeah, like you said, it was super short. And I remember right when we got done, our friends and I looked at each other. There's 4 of us and like grabbed each other and go, that was so awesome, but that was so stupid. Our kids better not do that.

That's true.

So that's so true. That's so true. So I'm excited for your new book and you think it's going to be out next year. That'll be, that'll be great. For us and the audience. And then as we wrap up here, it's been too short, so we gotta definitely do it again. So, it'll be fun. Is there any question that I should have asked that I didn't ask, or anything you want to leave our audience with that we should have covered?

You know, I'll just leave with this. You know, we talked about the value of an increment of time not being related to its duration, that time is nonlinear, that memories are your currency. The thing that I think a lot of People forget, particularly when they're financially successful, is that time and money are fungible. We trade our time for money all our lives to get to the place where we're safe financially. That is the time to start trading your money for time.

Yeah.

You have the money to buy time. You should buy it.

Yeah.

Right? Carve out 6 weeks to go do something. Go down to South America. Like, use all those financial resources because you can't take it with you.

Yep.

So, that would be my advice is trade your money for time when you've got the money to do so.

No, it's great advice. There's a great book. I'm sure you've read it, Die With Zero. So, the philosophy is build, build, build. You're always looking at that bottom line. Oh, this is the amount of money I have. This is my net worth. But when you hit that point in your life, which you're fortunate to get to, then it should be— that should be zero. Like, you're not looking at growing that bottom line. It's like, no, I've used that money. Either to help someone or to create a memory or to start that business I've always— that side business that I've always thought about, like that fun business I've always wanted to do. And so, yeah, that's spot on. I love that. It's great advice. And just double-click a little bit. When you're on stage or with coaching, say, like a sales team, and old saying is everyone's in sales, right? Which is true.

Right.

But what are you— From their sales lens, with the use of your philosophy and time, what are you exuding to them? Like, what are you saying, this is what you should be doing on Monday and Tuesday and Wednesday?

Great question. That means I have an answer because I'm an ex-consultant. The answer really is, if you become first recall, you become first call. This is when I speak to sales and marketing teams. This is the gist The message, right? If you can become memorable by pulling on one of these 5 things, then you become the first call, assuming you don't screw it up, right?

Mm-hmm.

Uh, and I had this, you know, happen by accident. This is sort of— I'll tell this super short story just as an example. This was not intentional, but I took a sales call a few years ago when I was still in consulting, and I had to hang up about 30 seconds in because just before the call I had taken a bite of a super hot chili. We were doing a tasting at work and I could no longer talk. So I'm like, I'm sorry, I have to let you go. I'll call you back as soon as I can. So I called back like 7, 8 minutes later. I'm so sorry, but I ate a super hot chili and I was crying and I could barely speak. And they never forgot that moment, right?

Yeah.

Like, it was so interesting and different than their usual sales call. So how do you make some uniqueness, some, you know, even risk and uncertainty, maybe? I don't know, that's a little sketchy, but, you know, something beautiful Get into the flow state. Um, you know, those things you want to design into your sales calls. How can you stand apart and become first recall?

Yeah, no, I love that. Become first recall. And then since you're on stage, uh, double-click a little more just because I'm curious, because we're both on stage. Have you ever had a moment to where you're like, oh gosh, like you had to— whether it's a chilly moment, because that's what flagged it for me, something where you're on stage, I'm like, I'm not going to get through this. I know I've had a I've tried to be better about not eating anything before I went on stage, but I had a bad shrimp the night before once, and literally leading up to before I went on stage, I didn't— there's no way I was going to be able to pull this off because I was laying down, I was like pale white, I was in the bathroom for 24 hours, it was just awful. But somehow I was able to get through that one, and there's been other moments where I'm like on stage, I'm like, oh man, this is— I Just whether my voice gave out or anything, but I've been able to get through. I've been lucky. Have you ever had a moment where you had to actually pause or just like power through?

So I, I actually do something similar intentionally, and I do it fairly often in the time talk. So here's— so here's— it's an hour talk, say, right? And so I'll be like 10, 12 minutes in, and I'll be stalking to the front of stage talking in the, you know, regular pattern I do, and then I'll just suddenly pause And I won't say anything, just like this. And then I start to walk away, and an admin comes out with some papers that are supposedly my notes, right? Because I've forgotten what I'm gonna say, supposedly. So then I turn back and I resume my normal place. I'm like, was anybody here uncomfortable for the last little bit? And they'll say, everybody says, yeah. And I says, how long do you think that was? And they'll be like, 2 minutes. And I'm like, that was 8 seconds.

Yeah.

8 seconds, right?

Yep.

Like, this proves to you that time is completely nonlinear. And when we are heightened in our terms of our awareness and, you know, risk and uncertainty and uniqueness to the moment, it slows down time. It works every time. So that's a good parallel to what you've experienced. But yeah, I do that pretty often.

No, it's good. It's smart. In Sweden, they're probably like, no, we're perfect. In Sweden, they'd be like, we're perfectly comfortable. It's totally different than American company. I worked at a Swedish company for a while and they're like, yeah, in America, they told me, they go, you'll get fired like the Lee Iacocca book. You get fired if you don't talk in the meeting. He's like, in Sweden, you're more likely to get fired if you say something that's not worthwhile everyone's time.

That's funny.

So it's okay if someone asks you a question to kind of sit there And think about it for 10 seconds. It's going to make everyone that's American uncomfortable, but us Swedes, we're fine with it.

I like that. I think Sweden is a place to work.

They also have a great saying. There's no— having both of us grown up in Michigan, there's no such thing as bad weather, just bad attire, which is true. It's more the mental state. Yeah, 100% true. Mental state. Well, this has been great. We got to have you back on. I mean, it's just amazing everything you've accomplished. Um, just incredible just to hear the story that you didn't even start skating until after college and then The Olympic team wanted you to focus on your weaknesses, shoring those up. You're like, no, what's my strength? And then, you recreated just the pattern recognition through design thinking that, hey, I'm going to take this turn sharper in life. And that's true of everything we do. How do we create these memories? So, I know I took a ton away today that I'm going to actually implement right now. I hear that. So, it's a good reset. It's a great reset for our audience too. So, can't thank you enough, John. And definitely check out his books. He's got the new book, it's Counterclockwise coming out, the new one, right?

Yes.

Great title. Amazing title. So, can't wait for that to come out. So, we'll definitely let everyone know about that. And we'll probably, if time allows, you'll be busy, but hopefully get you back on when that comes out. It'd be great. This show is produced by Jake Brinn and Kelsey Gomez, and it's made possible by you, our listeners.

So, thank you so much.

For tuning in each and every week. Obviously, we have these shows that we do at the beginning of the year. It's the 3rd year we've done it, to where we give you tips and clips from the number one bestseller, The Focus Project. But obviously, we have our regular show. Those are me sitting down with guests. That might be me talking about some late topic that we get a question on, whether that's artificial intelligence, or it could be I get interviewed on another show. Or some of our more popular episodes are when we have 7 Super Tips, or we sit down with guests that we interview or get tips from Elon Musk, from Jeff Bezos, from Miley Cyrus, on down the line. So again, tune in each and every week to the Super U Podcast. We're trying to do more than one show a week, so let us know how that's going. But until next time, this is your host, Eric Qualman. A lot of you know me as Equalman, reminding all of us it's not what we take from the world, it's what we leave behind.

7, 6, 5, 4, 3, 2, 1. Look super, super, super, super you. Uh, here's what we've had about—