Episode 186: The Power of Precision Management and Multi-Species Covers with Mike Thompson

Hi friends, this is John. Welcome back to the Regenerative Agriculture Podcast. Today I'm here with someone who I consider a friend and who I've had a lot of really enjoyable conversations with over the years. A farmer from a very challenging environment, Mike Thompson, from down in a very pretty part of Texas, but a very challenging part of Texas. Mike, thank you. Thank you very much for joining me. I know you've joined us on a couple of webinars that we've done in the past. And, uh, but there's a lot of people who listen to the podcast who don't listen to all the webinars. Um, and we've, uh, I've really enjoyed getting to know you and your farming operation and all some of the innovative things that you're working on. Um, can you perhaps begin by offering us, um, some context, context of your operation, your farming environment, and some of the things that you're working on?

So in West Texas, uh, predominantly cotton-growing country. I'm a 5th-generation farmer, grew up, you know, cotton on cotton every year, and that's kind of what we do. We get about 16, 17 inches of rainfall a year on average, and that a lot of times comes all at once or in 2 or 3 spells, so it makes it Definitely growing to grow cotton, because cotton— man, cotton's kind of a finicky plant. It, it's hard to come up, and when it does come up, it's looking for a reason to die. So you put that in an environment that's pretty harsh, um, you know, the wind blows like crazy, sand blows, um, hot, dry climate. But anyway, it's definitely challenging, but We've done it for 5 generations now. And my backstory, I grew up not wanting to farm. I hated it. When I was in high school, I said, as soon as I graduate high school, I'm gone and you won't ever see me again. And that's what I did. I left and I was gone for about 16 years. But I think, you know, farming's in your blood, and when it's in your blood, eventually you come back. But when I did, you know, long enough that everything changed so much, I was having to learn everything. So in learning kind of how my dad's farm now, you know, there was certain things it's like, you know, there's got to be a better way, um, especially with the challenges that I was seeing. So I think it really, I guess maybe a step back away and then coming back to kind of get a new perspective on things.

But, um, what were some of the challenges that you were seeing then?

Well, the challenges are just the conditions of getting a crop started. Um, you know, either lack of rainfall or when you'd get the rain and the wind would blow and static electricity from the wind, it Rotten or sand blowing and having a sand fight. Just— and then when you have the lack of rainfall and you're seeing the irrigation start to dwindle, you know, you have, you know, maybe a good-looking crop that you put a lot of effort in throughout the year, but later in the season when the rain stops and you've got 100-degree days for 30 days straight, um, You know, it just— you got to struggle and, and, and you don't get the crop that, that you really started out with. But you just see all those challenges. And I'll tell you my aha moment that kind of changed everything. We had a, uh, the first farm I was going to farm, my dad ran a one-trip plow, and it was a— had onion blade on the front that would plow underneath the bed. It had a buster and a chisel. So we used that plow to, to basically cut the old rows and, and list the new beds in. So my first year of farming, that's what we ran. Well, there's one section of this farm that was pasture land, and when we started running it, we had ran out of moisture and it kind of greened up. So going through that pasture land, it was pulling up huge clods of, uh, dirt and breaking plow bolts. And, you know, that tractor was pulling, pulling down. We're in 4-wheel drive and lower gear. And, and anyway, we got to this one spot that there was, uh, hay on the ground from where they had fed in the winter. Well, as soon as we hit that spot, that tractor just lunged forward. And instead of seeing big clods coming out of the ground, what I saw was slabs of mud. And that was just my kind of aha moment that the stark difference— and all it is is a layer of biomass on the ground. And if that's all it takes to, to kind of protect ourselves from the harshness we're in, that's pretty easy to do. So really what I wanted to do is figure out, hey, how do I spread hay on all my field? You know, how much would it cost to buy all that hay? And, you know, started researching like, well, I can grow it. You know, it's a cover crop. Yeah. And, uh, you know, start just kind of— that's kind of started me down that, that path.

And how— what were, what were your early, uh, what were your early experiments? How did you start growing your own cover crops and hay as, as a result of that? What were your early experiences?

Well, with us being cotton country, you know, we're cotton on cotton on cotton. So we harvest cotton in November and we're going to plant a cover crop. Well, I had grand notions that, hey, I'm going to put out all these multi-species cover crops and it's going to be great. And I'm kind of following what I've learned at conferences and whatnot. But it's not practical. So planting in November, you can only plant so many species and, and be successful in it. But the small grains worked. So one thing I decided to do is I planted cereal rye. And I said, you know what, I'm gonna take this to, to where I can roller crimp it, just do up in Midwest and other parts of the country. And I did that, and that was one of my first trials. I had a small pivot that I had plenty of water on, and I actually took that cereal rye to anthesis. We actually got a rain right when I was fixing to crimp it, so I couldn't crimp it until a little later. So I didn't crimp just perfect like, you know, what you see. But you talk about having biomass for 2 years and hardly, you know, I didn't have to anything with the weed control. And, and the crop looked wonderful. And it was, I was like, you know what, this is, this is the key. But that was an anomaly because that year we actually had some rainfall. Well, without, you know, enough irrigation, that's not practical in our area. And, you know, learning the 5 soil health principles, you know, never learned the 6th one till later. context. And what works in other parts of the country doesn't necessarily work in our country. So yeah, that did work on a small trial deal, but to implement, you know, across the operation wasn't practical.

And of course, the key as we learn about context is we need to develop systems that can perform consistently, or at least as reasonably consistently as possible, whether we get rainfall or not, or obviously to the degree that consistency is possible depending on weather conditions. And so how has that evolved for you over time? How are— what are you doing today?

So once I saw the benefits of it, you know, I wanted to duplicate it. And then the next year it was a failure. So I think you learn most from your failures. Just didn't have the rainfall, didn't have the irrigation, and trying to compensate for that lack of rainfall, you end up missing a crop because of it. Um, but so I said, well, let's do something else instead of growing cotton primarily for the first crop. Let's grow corn or milo. We— you have a little bit more flexibility doing that because you can harvest a little earlier than cotton. Uh, you can grow, you know, different species. So I started doing that. And then, you know, a little bit more successful with the COVID crop and the diversity, but it still wasn't where I wanted it. The Ukraine-Russia war broke out, wheat prices went up. I just harvested a corn crop, so I was like, you know what, I'm gonna plant some wheat for grain. And I did. Wheat crop was great, uh, made a good profit on it. And then after we harvested in June, it was like, what are we going to do with this ground for until next planting season? Um, thought about doing a double crop, but I was like, you know what, this prime time to try to add some cover crops that I can't grow in the fall and the winter. So I got a cover crop from Green Cover. It was a soil builder, warm season. Planted it, and I was amazed at all the things I could grow that I was trying to grow before. You can pretty much grow anything you want in the summer. Anyway, it grew up tall and luscious, and turned cattle out in it, and, you know, they had a hay day in it. And I was amazed at that following cotton crop that next year. So You know, that kind of was that turning point of, you know what, I can introduce diversity. I just have to do it in a rotation setting. Do it in a 3-year or 4-year deal and, and get it all. So pretty much implemented that across all my acres. Kind of just divided it all out. One little hiccup I came along with that is When you have a landlord and you have a landlord split, the gross revenue of the crop is what they get, you know, if it's 20% or whatever it is. Well, the wheat year gross for wheat's not that great compared to cotton or corn, or, um, and then you follow that up with a cover crop that doesn't bring any revenue other than a little bit of grazing, and it's kind of hard to explain to the landlord what you're doing. You know, it's like, well, let's— that cotton crop is what's gonna—

there's like none cotton.

Yeah, you know, the following year. So, um, so I kind of took that one step further and I said, well, how about let's divide up each individual field in thirds? Then I have to wait for a third year for cotton. We have a third of it in cotton every year. And, uh, so that's done, um, all the pivots. I've divided out into thirds, and I have a, a corn, wheat, cover, cotton, uh, 3-year rotation on everything. And, um, it's so far, it's— I'm in the 4th year of it, and it's amazing at the results I'm seeing with the cotton crop. And it's really kind of focusing on the cotton. It's catering to the cotton. But the timing that I plant the corn allows the good timing to plant the wheat, which allows for that multi-cover over the summer, which sets up the cotton. So we're basically setting that cotton up for 2 years. We're really focusing on having a fantastic cotton crop.

I know one of the things that I was so intrigued by in some of our earlier conversations is the benefits that this had for you from a water management perspective and an irrigation perspective, because of course we see rapidly depleting water reserves in the Ogallala, and that's going to be a reality that people will have to increasingly face over time. So tell us a bit about how splitting every field into a third benefited your irrigation.

So on a, I'd say a good water situation, you'd have about 3.5 gallons per minute per acre. So on a pivot with that kind of water on a dry year, you can make a good cotton crop, probably a fair to poor corn crop. On a normal rainfall year, you can make a good crop all around. But since we don't see those very often, The biggest benefit I've seen is with that rotation. So with the wheat part of it, we're pulling off of that wheat with irrigation in May, end of May, you know, we're harvesting in June. Or here I've locked up, or I freed up a third of that pivot worth of water to water just 2 crops. So if I had 3.5 gallons per minute per acre, now I have 5 gallons. Maker. Well, 5, you know, a gallon and a half makes a heck of a difference. So now even in a dry year, I can grow a fantastic cotton crop and still a very good corn crop. Well, we can manage that a little bit finer. We can plant that corn a little earlier, maybe have a shorter, uh, variety, uh, maturity. And we're pulling— in fact, right now is August 13th. I've got one more pass on the corn and I'm pulling off of it. My cotton is set up in peak bloom and it is loaded to the gill, and I'm fixing to have 10 gallons per minute per acre to put on that cotton until September 1st. And, you know, that's, that's kind of what managing, you know, with cotton as the focus. Um, but that's, that's a game changer for You know, what we're experiencing in the last few years, you know, we get a normal rainfall year, then all that kind of gets evened out. You don't see it. But man, you really see it in challenging years.

Yeah. Yeah. So what has, uh, what has your landlord's response— well, there's a couple of questions that come to mind. I want to talk about the economics, but also, um, maybe before we go to the economics, you, you mentioned earlier that when, as you've been putting this, this rotation together, this a third and a third rotation of these various crops and incorporating the livestock. You mentioned all the benefits that you've been seeing from, um, soil health, and just, you mentioned benefits in general. What have you been observing? What has changed?

So we've got this one farm that is, it's been in the soil health for 7 years. The same field that the pivot is on, it actually walked onto another neighbor's farm And we would just water their park for free. But we acquired that 3 years ago, so it's been under, under this practice for 3 years. And then just outside of it has been conventional tillage, conventional farming. We had a field day not too long ago, and we were on that site, and 20 yards apart, we went and took a shovel full of soil. And put it on the tailgate. And you could see 0, 3 years in, 7 years in. And that was the highlight of that field day. And everybody there was just amazed. You know, the— we took the soil out of the 7-year, and it's what you would think it was. You know, the aggregate was nice, earthworms coming out of it. You had a lot of roots and, and, and plants and everything in it. There's the middle one, you know, you saw a little bit of that, but then the one that's been conventional, I barely kept it on the shovel bringing it over to the tailgate. It was just sand and just kind of sliding off the shovel. But just seeing that, you know, because a lot of times you'll go to a conference and they'll show you those examples, but when you're on a field and you get to see 3 different practices just 20 yards apart from each other and, and just visually see that soil. It's, it's amazing.

It's amazing. It's amazing to see it, but also there is something about when you are in those fields and you walk them, there's a sense of perception that comes by walking on things with your feet and just feeling that it feels different when you walk across it.

Yep. Well, and the smell of the soil and, yeah, how the shovel goes in the ground and You know, it's just, yep, it's definitely a different perspective being in it.

So just so that I'm tracking and following correctly, you mentioned that the earliest was, has been 7 years, but it's been more recently than 7 years that you incorporated the COVID crops and livestock. Is that right? Or was that also 7 years?

About 7 years ago, I also incorporated the livestock in the COVID crop. It was just on a different level. Yeah. For the last 3 years, I've done this multi-species in the rotation, but first few years was experimenting, you know, here and there.

Yeah, got it. So as you've divided each field into these 3 different— into this rotation for each pivot. What has— I suppose there's kind of 2 questions. The one question is, what has the economic output of that been comparatively since you're able to focus more on the high-value crops, crop with cotton, with water applications at critical times of the year? How has that benefited economics overall comparatively? And what has the landlord's response been?

Well, if you have enough year and you have a full pivot in cotton, you know, if you say 2.5 bale to the acre, it, it's a respectable deal. But when you can do a third of the crop and make 4 bale, you know, it's, you can make a whole lot more and a whole lot less. And even though, you know, wheat's not quite the revenue potential, the cotton, you know, how everything sets up as a whole, you're, you're, you're ahead than what you'd be single crop on a tough year. On a good year, which I don't know, been a long time since we had one. I think it would even out and you wouldn't see the benefit. But what you really do see the benefit in the heart of the year, the more benefit you see. And, you know, are definitely, you know, pleased. Just not just the revenue, but how the land's being taken care of and the variety out there. And, you know, it's not just kind of a you know, monoculture crop. It's, you know, they, they appreciate the diversity, I think, more than just the, yeah, we've got, you know, guaranteed revenue and, um, you know, it's, it all equals out every year and whatever else. I think they appreciate how the land's being taken care of and they like seeing the cattle out on just the third and, you know, and, you know, they ask questions and, you know. So just kind of involving them in the while we do things. And we actually had one that, that we're going to do that 15-way mix after the wheat. I said, but I'm going to throw in some vegetable items, and if you go through and pick vegetables or whatever, it's basically be like a big garden. Anyway, she goes, well, I'm going to set out a little part around the house. Why don't you come plant that? So I did. But, you know, it's just kind of— It's kind of neat seeing their involvement and, you know, and really more involved in the farms.

That's very good. I was just about to ask you what their enthusiasm has been above and beyond just the economics. One of the things I wanted to get into with you as well, you were part of the original group that James Johnson had organized that we came to call the cotton think tank that was here at my place. I'm not sure, probably half a dozen or more years ago now, something like that. And I wanted to ask you about your crop management and agronomic management and how has that shifted and evolved over time with the cotton specifically, but also more broadly?

Well, with the cotton being the main focal point, You know, and using that information we gained in, in that, uh, think tank group, you know, we're definitely, um, in, in all that we do to kind of set that cotton up and, and, and to have that potential for that lint production. But in doing that, it makes you kind of think of, well, you know, are we growing wheat just to grow it? Or are there some things we can do with the wheat? Or is there some things we can do with the corn or the milo or whatever we're doing? So a lot of that is— Yeah, we learned that cotton-specific and, and what nutrition package at what timing, whatever else. But, you know, you start to apply it to these other crops as well, and it just— it's kind of a whole synergistic relationship. with everything. But it's, you know, I've definitely seen the benefits of incorporating that with all the crops, not just the cotton.

For some reason, and my memory may not be serving me correctly here, but I, for some reason, I have it in my mind that you also started changing your irrigation management practices and some of your fertility management practices very early in the establishment phase. Or maybe I'm misremembering, you might have been doing some of that already, but I know you've been doing some things that I think a lot of other people could possibly benefit from as well. What, what do your early, early-stage management practices look like on cotton?

Originally, you know, it was synthetic fertilizer and, you know, just the conventional way. Once we started down the soil health path, it was really just compost and manure. We'd spread out 2.5 to 3 tons, and that was really all we would use. And then once we got to the Think Tank group, you know, we started really doing foliars and in-furrow and primers and everything else. But early on, it was really just a transition from synthetic fertilizer to the compost and manure.

And am I thinking correctly that you now do an irrigation either before planting or immediately after planting and that you had not done so historically, or am I misremembering that?

No, we've always done, we've always been big on pre-watering before planting. And my dad would always say that that's the best money you can spend. Is pre-watering, you know, because when you get in late August and that crop is great and, and you have the reserves deep down, you know, you're going to benefit tenfold from it. And then now one thing, the irrigation after the crop, just having cover crops in general and, and keep the ground kind of I don't know. I guess one part about our ground that has changed with the implementation of no-till and everything else, our ground is extremely hard. So if we cut off the irrigation, you don't really need the irrigation after season, or, or maybe over the winter when you have a cover crop growing, you start to see effects on that cover crop. Because that ground gets so hard. So I do implement more irrigation post-season and before just to keep that ground mellow to where those roots can go and, you know, not get restricted by the ground.

So when you consider the net effect of all of that, what does your annual water usage look like across the entire year for that pivot? Is it similar to what it has been historically, more or less?

I'm gonna say it's gonna be more. Yeah, but the efficiency is a lot better than before because whenever we're putting on an inch and you have covers or you're canopied over, you know, you're not losing near as much to evaporation. So what we do save in the season, we'll probably end up applying in the off-season because we have cover crops growing or whatever else. But if you were to break it down for irrigation per, you know, lint yield or whatever, then, you know, definitely the utilization is a lot higher. But the total usage, I'd say, is probably a little bit more than before.

Yeah. But yeah, so, um, what has What have you observed as you've observed these improvements in soil health? And obviously you're concentrating irrigation water, so there's been lots of system changes that have happened. And as a result of that transition over time, what changes have you observed in the cotton crop itself and how it expresses itself and its performance? How is it I mean, obviously water at critical stages makes a huge difference, but yeah, I'm curious how you've seen the behavior and the expression of the plants change over time.

Well, traditionally with cotton, say you have a good rainfall year, you have the adequate irrigation, cotton can get out of hand. You know, it can get rank is what we call it, to where you have to pop And growth regulators to keep the internode space. So one thing I've seen that's different is I haven't used Pix or growth regulator in probably about 7 years. That transition from the synthetic fertilizer to, to the compost and kind of more of a calcium-driven nutrient base, that's one of the growing Characteristics that I see different is, you know, I don't have to pick the cotton, which if you don't pick the cotton, you don't lose that little period of pause of, you know, photosynthesis. Another thing I've seen is, is, you know, cotton is notorious for loading up more than it ever needs, and then it sheds it off later, you know, whenever it sees the stress. So I've seen the same You know, it'll load up like it has, but you don't see near the shed in the rows, you know, after season. So, I think we're retaining a lot more fruit. And one thing I've noticed, and my dad's noticed, you know, walk through a field and he's like, how are you getting these leaves so big? You know, the leaves will be as big as a dinner plate.

Wow.

And they're humongous. And, you know, that's one thing with, you know, they're Basically like solar panels. And, and, but you just see little characteristics difference. The color's a little different. I don't see the color difference 'cause I'm colorblind, but my dad will say, hey, yeah, that color is different than what we're normal, you know, normally accustomed to. But anyway, it's, you know, there's different characteristics and you get other farmers, you know, they'll ask, well, what variety is that? Is that a, is that a Pima? Is that a— I know, you know, regular upland, and it could be the same variety they were growing across the turn row, but it looks different.

Yeah, yeah, that's, that's, it's fascinating to observe how plants can express themselves so differently. And, and in the scenario that you just described, it's the same seed source from the same parent generation. You imagine amplifying that result over a couple of generations, you, you would have even greater variations in expression. Mike, you've been using SAP analysis now for a number of years and playing around with different trace mineral applications. And I know for the last— actually, I think it was in the original think tank for the very first time we honed in on the potential importance and value of cobalt and boron with some of the plant physiological expression that we wanted to see. And it took us a couple of years to kind of get on top of that and get that dialed in. But I'd love to hear your observations on Specific nutrient management changes that you've made and the results that you've observed, if any?

Well, you know, with our think tank group, you know, learning about the importance of boron, I try to implement that. I'd use Solubor through the pivot fertigated, you know, when we're pre-watering. Seemed like you'd see a, you know, very delayed response. Weren't getting the response you really needed. And it's kind of hard to, to handle and, and dissolve and, and apply. So this year I did something different. I did a ferti— or no, it's a granule bore, and I did it with a spreader, spread it out on all the cotton acres that was going to be cotton. I did that in March, and I think I put out 15 pounds, which is like 2 and a quarter actual, and The— I've been pulling apps, been using the PropX, and the boron level is just, you know, what it normally is. We just took a last peak and we applied a foliar adjustment for the previous apps we had taken July 22nd. Looking at all the nutrients we applied to see what kind of uptick we got, and I noticed that there was one element or one, uh, nutrient that was just off the chart, and it was boron. And we didn't apply any. We applied a little bit, but I didn't apply any at all. And, and we're talking from 1.5 parts per million to like 36 parts per million.

Wow.

And, and that's both new leaf and old leaf. They were identical. And, and I was kind of looking at that, I was like, I mean, that's, that's crazy. And then some of the other nutrients that followed— calcium was off the chart, magnesium went up quite a bit.

Um, yeah.

So I kind of wanted an explanation of why. And so I actually used the FieldLark AI, and I put in all the info, uploaded the sap results, you know, put in that, hey, I applied this at That timing. And, and basically it, it spit out that since it was a spring applied and with the rainfall I'd received, that, that boron had gone past the 6-inch mark in the 6 to 18-inch root zones. Well, that's when that cotton hit that, and it doesn't eat— and it basically explained that it doesn't eat boron, it drinks it.

Yeah.

And, and it was just taking it up and explained that the reason the others went up, you know, I said calcium is a very lazy nutrient. You don't really want to do much, but boron is kind of like a drill instructor, and whenever it shows up, calcium is going to get to work. Well, calcium starts to work, a lot of those other nutrients come up with it because it's kind of like a locomotive. And anyway, it's amazing just that one Boron application in March had all those domino effects. And, you know, I pulled the saps on 7/22 and the cotton looked good. And then I went in a week later for— I was walking out a pivot, I'm like, man, this cotton is really looking good. And we had a rain, so I kind of, you know, thought, well, maybe just that rain was that beneficial. And then when I pulled the saps just a week ago, I was just blown away at how improved that cotton is. And then once I saw the results, it was like unlocking a lock that you've been trying to unlock for a long time. Yeah, it was just amazing. Wow.

So this is important, I think, for a lot of people. I want to follow up on the Granubor, but I also want to back up to the Solubor application. You expressed that you were seeing a delayed response that was being a challenge for you. How long was the— this might have been partially because of your local soil conditions, but what was the time delay from the time that was being applied until you were observing a crop response with that?

We were putting it in April for pre-watering, and we weren't seeing it in the saps until about July.

Wow.

But we never saw just a spike. We just saw a little bit of an increase. And from the soil test, we had a decent amount in the soil. So, it wasn't like we were depleted completely. But anyway, I was kind of surprised. Now, and we didn't put it out in one shot. It was, you know, over a 3 or 4 week period. You know, every time the pivot came by. But anyway, there was definitely a delayed response. I didn't have a control because it seems whenever I make a change, I don't change just on one farm. I like to do it on everything. So I didn't really get to see, well, let's, let's use this pivot and continue the solubore and see if, you know, we make a difference. I did the granular on everything.

So when you consider, you also, you now had a delayed response with the Granubor as well, perhaps because you put it on too early and it went down too deep. How are you considering changing that application in the future? I would actually, I could see an argument being made for 2 possible arguments. One is what Fieldark described could very well be correct. And the other is perhaps Granubor also had a delayed reaction that was even longer than Solubor.

It's possible. Um, I, I know it talked about how the granule bore is designed with its, um, delayed release. Okay, it has kind of a release curve. So I definitely want to look into that a little bit more and see kind of that timeline and see if I can fine-tune it, because it'd be nice to have had that, say, 2 weeks earlier.

Yeah.

Yeah. And it might be something that you put out a big shot in March, but then maybe you'd follow with the smaller shot, you know, about planting time or, you know, something.

Yeah, that's, that is fascinating. Now I'm curious, when you had that, that increase in boron levels, you, of course, you're only a week past that point at this point, but Um, did you see any responses to the other trace minerals as a result of the increased calcium, magnesium, and everything else?

Well, we applied a lot of the other trace minerals, so it's kind of— it muddies it a little bit. Yeah, but, but the, the nutrients that we saw an uptick, we did not apply, and, and they were big increases, which was, uh, the boron, Calcium, magnesium, nitrogen, and sulfur. Yeah.

Now, Mike, you're one of the few lucky crops that has had the chance to play with the CropTix sensors in the field this year. What has your experience been like?

As far as the sampling and getting it to somebody, it's the same, but the first time I did it, you know, I guess you're just kind of used to, well, we'll see it in 3, 4, 5 days. And that day I got it, you know, I got an email and I'm like, there you go, that was quick. And then it's, you know, and you can— I can sample as many times as I want, you know. So that, that part of it's nice too. It's, um, you know, so if you see anything kind of goofy or you want to do a little bit of a test on here or there, then, you know, you just have some more flexibility. But it's a, it's a neat tool. Uh, I'm gonna look forward to other crops, you know, being able to use it for sure.

And, um, oh, I had a question on the tip of my tongue and it's gotten wings. Um, oh, I was about to ask you, you, you now have half a dozen or so years experience with sap analysis, and CROPTIX is obviously new technology and it's It's not going to be a perfect analog, I wouldn't expect. It'll be close, but perhaps not perfect. How easy or difficult has it been for you to interpret and to translate the effects from the CROPTIX device versus from a laboratory sap analysis?

It's pretty much the same because I'll get it from CROPTIX, but then Kip will follow up A couple days later with the with y'all's format, and it just like what it was before. And it you know it has all all the samples all in one graph where you can easily see it. But it's relatively the same.

Yeah. Yeah, this is it's this is quite exciting for me because I've literally been dreaming about this device for over a decade. So. Quite excited to have it in the field. So Mike, what, what important topics have we missed talking about?

Well, there's a couple of observations that I saw this year with my cover crop, um, and doing a soil test that I can share. So on the pivot that we've got the 3 divided fields, I always do a Haney test Every other year, so this year was my hainey year. Pulled them all, reviewing all the data, and one I had one outlier that was just I kind of questioned on. So most of the soil tests, you know, you look at your available nitrogen and anywhere from ten to fifteen, twenty pounds available. And there's one particular section. That was actually cotton last year, it showed 57 pounds available. And it wasn't a bad cotton crop. It was a 3-bell cotton crop that came off of it. And I was— and a lot of the other nutrients, calcium and a lot of the macros and micros were all up too. What was before that cotton was that 15-way, uh, Adversity Cotton Primer.

Gotcha.

cover crop. And then before that was wheat. So it was, it was incredible to see the nutrient difference on those other 2 sections of the pivot that had the same, uh, manure applied at the same rates. Everything's identical. Only difference was following that multi-cover after a really good cotton crop and to see the amount of nutrients that were still left.

So you had multi-cover, you incorporated, you had livestock grazing that, and then you had a very good cotton year, and then there was still this residual 57 pounds of nitrogen left after the cotton crop.

Yeah, at least double what the other 2 parts of that field were. And what follows cotton is corn, which is, you know, so I'm going into this corn crop with a surplus compared to the other 2 sections. So just seeing that visual, I guess anytime you do a test and kind of get to see the data and you're like, you know, that's incredible. And I think a lot of it, it's not that, you know, we had some legumes in there that was probably putting that nitrogen in, but for all the other nutrients, you know, you have 15 different species from 9 different families scavenging and, and grabbing nutrients in all different ways. And then going in there and, and recycling it with the cattle to set up that cotton crop. And, you know, hey, I got to see it, you know, in the soil test, but I also got to see the, the yield and the, and the fiber quality and everything else as a result. And then fast forward to, um, well, after The other section that was wheat that is cotton today, I'd planted that cover. And that was that same field I was talking about that split. Part of it's in the circle that's been farmed this way for 7 years, some of it's only 3 years. You can see where the old turn row divided it, and the same 15-way mix was planted in the whole thing. And my dad asked, well, how come you planted in the new place we call Bill's place? He said, why'd you call Bill— or why'd you plant something different in Bill's place and not in Kenneth's place. I'm like, it's the same mix, but what we're seeing is sunn hemp, and it's just, it's across the whole thing, just yellow flowers, sunn hemp.

It's more dominant. It's more of a pioneering species, and it's earlier in the succession stage.

So I don't know if the soil just needed that particular, you know, it needed the nitrogen or whatever, but it was calling for that sunn hemp to to dominate. So, you know, we did the same thing, grazed it, and we have cotton there now. It— that part is sorghum land, you know, 4 years delayed, and my best cotton is on that ground right now.

The sunn hemp.

And I think it's because of the sunn hemp. And now the other cotton looks good too, but You would think in the sorghum land, see the opposite, but it was amazing to see what a cover crop can do even on, on sorghum land and how it kind of sets you up. But how that cotton stands now, I mean, I think it's my best right now, probably on the worst one.

Yeah, it'll be, it'll be interesting to see how that, how that turns out in the final harvest. And it's, you know, sunn hemp is a very robust pioneering species, one that we consider earlier in succession stages. And I still remember, I just, every time I dig up a sunn hemp plant and I look at the nodules on those root systems, it just, it amazes me every time. Like, how— what other plants do we have that we can have legume nodules that are the size of golf balls?

Well, you know, I've planted legumes in the fall for cover crops and I've never seen a nodule. You know, I pulled them like, you know, evidently, you know, hairy vetch or clover or whatever else. I've never seen it. Well, you know, I think that cover crop mix has 4 legumes in it. Every single one had nodules. But exactly what you're saying about that sunn hemp, I mean, they were humongous.

Yeah.

But it was, it was neat to see.

Yeah, yeah, that is awesome. So you shared 2 different observations. You said you had a couple of things. Was there anything else that you've— that has intrigued you?

Not that I could think of. Those were the main 2 as far as the COVID crop was concerned. And then the boron with the sap analysis was You know, the other observation that, you know, all 3 this year just kind of confirmation of, man, I think we're in the head in the right direction.

Yeah.

Um, now, you know, one thing that I guess yesterday I was driving down the road and it's 3 o'clock, 103 I think is what it got to yesterday, and there was a drip patch, somebody else's, and you could see exactly which lines were watering. And the rest of it was burning up. And a lot of the cotton, there's not a whole lot of good patches of cotton around, but the good patches you see, I mean, they're hot and you can tell that they're, you know, really earning for water. But what's nice, you go drive around my farms and where I have that rotation implemented, you know, the cotton just happy as can be. And, you know, no sign that you know, lacking water, that it's, you know, 103 or whatever else, it's just thriving.

Yeah.

So that's kind of that thing. Yeah. The confirmation of, you know, getting through difficult environments. Yeah.

One of the, you know, one of the things that comes to mind that I think is worth pointing out, you over, over the years with using sap analysis every couple of weeks during the growing season, You have learned and you've figured out what your historical nutrient trends are, what the historical challenges are. And you made a comment a little bit ago that it would have been nice to have that boron application 2 weeks earlier, or the boron response curve 2 weeks earlier. And that is such a valuable insight because you know when you want it to occur in the plant's development stage. And now you have some idea of what the product's response curve has been and how you might adapt or adjust that in the future. And I see that as just this gaping blind spot for so many people is they don't actually know when the product that they're applying actually shows up. They have no idea whether it should be— they don't even— it's not even a common conversation to think about is should it be applied a little bit earlier, a little bit later to produce the crop response, the optimal timing. And that is I think over time that's going to become recognized as a bigger and bigger advantage.

Yeah, I think, well, just how farmers have always farmed. You always go on the box, you're a mister, or how your dad did it, or how, you know, just traditionally you did it, but you never really understood the whys. You know, why are we putting that out? Or, you know, or Are the advice getting that, you know, practical? Is it the best things? But once you start researching and understanding why doing things and timing and everything else, it's funny how a lot of those suggestions, you know, the experts start kind of go, you know, they're not actually anything. They're wrong. Or or you ever question this? Why are we putting that? That amount, you know, at this time answers. So it's, you know, almost having the micro, you know, the formation flying below.

Yeah. Yeah, it certainly gives you a different— it gives you an informed perspective. You now have an informed opinion about why you're doing what you're doing. Mike, what, uh, what advice would you have for other farmers who want to explore these approaches?

Man, you got to have attention to detail. It'd be kind of like, it's almost like you're a coordinator on a football team and you're sitting there as an offensive coordinator reading the defense constantly. You're calling the plays and, and, and, and trying to get the right personnel on the field and, and everything else. Well, if you go into it without the preparation work the week prior, you know, the scouting and, and everything else that's, that has to take place before game time, you're probably not going to be a very good coordinator and you're not going to, you know, win many games. So I think it's the same kind of deal with this kind of farming. If you don't do the preparation and understand what you're doing, come game time when it's time to apply it, you're not going to be very successful. And really, you're probably better off not even trying if you're not going to put in the effort and the preparation.

Mike, that was the most Texas analogy.

It's almost football season, so. Yeah.

Well, Mike, thank you. Thank you very much for all the things that you've been working on and that you've contributed to, to other farmers and other growers in your area. And thank you for being here and sharing your wisdom and experience. I've really enjoyed this conversation.

Yep, I have too.

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