What Wellness Coaches Know About Staying Married | Jonny Miller and Kelly Wilde Miller

I actually saw Kelly give a talk on sleep at this co working space. Her branding was sleepwithkelly.com I was a sleep coach. She was a sleep coach.

I was a sleep coach.

Accepting that heartbreak is going to be inevitable regardless of what happens. Like, there'll be heartbreak if you don't say something. And then you always like, wonder, what if?

I have a lot of empathy for those who, you know, who Commitment's not something that feels safe in their system. But when it finally all clicked of like, oh, shoot, yeah, we can work on everything in here. The hulk wants to come out, right? And it's like if the hulk fully gets to come out, then like, there's no putting the hulk back in until the destruction has happened.

I talk about like shortening the half life of reactivity. So maybe conflict would go from being a two day not talking to each other rupture down to like a two minute thing. So I think that's probably a better sign of progress is like, what, what's the half life of the reactivity in the relationship?

Well, Johnny and Kelly, welcome to Modern Relationships. Thanks for coming on.

Thanks for having us.

It's great to be here.

Yeah.

So in this podcast, we interview couples about advice they have for other people on finding their partner or picking their. Their partner as well as. And we'll spend more time on this, but how to make their relationship, their marriage, et cetera. Fantastic. Or what other couples can learn from what you guys do. But maybe let's start with the first question based on your experience, what advice might you have for others or even for yourselves maybe a decade ago or something, when you were starting out on finding your partner or how has what you look for evolved as you've gotten older?

I bet that happens a lot. I can start. So yeah, I. This might even be a little cliche, but the way it worked for us is do the things you love in life and meet the other people who are doing similar things. And we met in Bali in early 2019, both at the same co living and co working space. And you know, that was kind of fun because we're on a smaller island, there's a smaller population of people and there's an even smaller amount of humans who are there who were, you know, quote unquote, the digital nomads and who were looking for a balance between adventure and spirituality and working online. And so there was a smaller pool of people, which actually meant that you got to meet most of them. And at the time those were, I mean, to this day, day, those are still kind of some of our big intersections. I wouldn't call it digital nomad anymore, but entrepreneurship. And yeah, we just found each other there and there was a spark. And I think that's a little bit easier than trying to find someone in say, like New York City or San Francisco where you're just competing with tens of thousands of humans. So I don't know if you can, like, whittle it down to smaller groups of people where it's like more refined in alignment to you. Maybe there's a good chance of synergy there.

Yeah, I guess I'd add to that. I've never really used a dating app and I kind of feel like it would be a very challenging experience to find a partner through a dating app. It just seems like. It just seems very challenging. I mean, my strategy was hang out in a place where I generally like the types of people that pass through. And then I actually saw Kelly give a talk on sleep at this co working space. Her branding was sleepwithkelly.com I was a sleep coach. She was a sleep coach. I need to put some text in there.

I was a sleep coach.

And yeah, I think I. I invited you to kind of be on my podcast, which was my way of doing like a pickup line.

Yeah, yeah. And we went and had coffee. But it was purely friendship at the beginning. I was with another gentleman at the time. And yeah, we went back. I went back to America and Johnny stayed in Bali and we just were long distance friends for almost a year actually. So I don't know, it was like, start as friends, move into that other path, keep the curiosity going. And at some point it was actually me who said, hey, I'm developing feelings for you while I was also in this other relationship. So things got sticky for a little bit. And I think that was a big turning point of just being honest. Like, hey, there's something here. I'd like to explore it.

It's interesting because there's a lot of people who sort of are concerned about exploring with a friend because of what it could, you know, due to the friendship or they, you know, don't want to feel rejected in with someone they're so close with or. Or they just don't think it would fit because. Or it would work out because you sort of. There's inertia around the friendship. And if it would have happened, it would have happened. Say more about how your transition happened or what you think others can learn from it.

Well, we were sort of long distance friends. Johnny was living in Bali. I was in California and there was no sense of when, if and when we would ever live in the same place again. And so the stakes were, I wouldn't say they were that high. Right. He wasn't my best friend, he wasn't my go to day to day person, but there was clearly energy, there was clearly an enthusiasm for us to be in each other's lives. And I very much assumed he felt the same way. It was just kind of clear. So that, yeah, that felt like I knew I was going out on a limb to begin that, but I also just had to hunch that it was going to be reciprocated. And so I don't know if it's more of like a one dimensional friendship where like one person really has feelings for the other and the other one isn't clearly expressing that, then I do think you can get more into the territory that you just described. And ideally, you know, something that we work on in our marriage is secure attachment within marriage. And the more that we've established that, the more I work on secure attachment within friendships. And so the ideal would be that you could go to a friend and feel safe enough to express what's true and real for you. And together in the relational sphere, you can work with it and still be friends on the other side, even if the other person doesn't feel the same way. But if you speaking your truth is what ends a relationship, then I don't even know if that's the right relationship for you to be in on any level.

Yeah, yeah. I'd maybe add to that. I feel like a lot of people try to avoid heartbreak in this area and in some ways accepting that heartbreak is going to be inevitable regardless of what happens. There'll be heartbreak if you don't say something. And then you always wonder what if? And so it's really just choosing which flavor of heartbreak you'd rather live with and you'd rather feel. And I think for me, I'd always be in the camp of rather saying something and expressing and then maybe being turned down, but then not having the like, question of like, oh, what if I'd said this, you know, four or five years later.

Yeah, yeah, the regret minimization thing.

Exactly. Yeah, yeah.

I want to get into all sorts of things about how you guys sort of operate in your image because you have some really interesting sort of frameworks and ideas. But first one, we flesh out how you came together. You guys have a fascinating engagement story. Kelly, why don't you, why don't you tell how it Happened.

Okay, so you already know. We met in Bali. We were friends. I was with another man. I was working that one out and figuring out if I was going to stay or not. Eleven months after we met Johnny, I broke up with that guy. Johnny messaged me like five days later saying, hey, I'm coming to America. I'd love to come and see you. And actually my first reaction was both simultaneous joy, like, oh, yes, I get to see Johnny. And then also like, oh, but I just got out of this other relationship and I could really use some space from being in partnership. And I just sort of assumed this could be the start of something. So we actually set up in advance that that was just going to be a friend visit. And he came out, he came and stayed with me in Lake Tahoe. And very quickly it became more than a friend visit. There was just so much electricity and spark and aliveness between us. And yeah, by the end of that 10 day trip, we were in a committed relationship. And Johnny still is living in Bali at the time. This is so. This is like January 2020. I'm living in Lake Tahoe, Johnny's in Bali. We're together with no plan of how we're actually going to be in the same place. We just sort of trusted that we'll figure this out down the line. Fast forward, it's March 2020 and Johnny's giving a workshop in Mexico City as the whole world is starting to shut down from the pandemic. And he calls me and says, hey, there's this whole quarantine. It'd be faster for me to get to you in California than for me to go all the way back to Bali. Do you think I can come stay with you for like the week or two that we'll all be in quarantine? And at the time, like, we're all naive. We have no idea what's happening. And it's just like, for sure, yeah, come stay with me. We'll just have like another magical two weeks together. It's March, it's. We're in the mountains. My house was like this big snow globe. Everything shut down. We were just like, we're snowed in as well. And so it's just this like, whirlwind, magical early pandemic time for us where we have no sense of what's happening, how long this whole thing's gonna go on. And then, and then it just never ended quarantine. And the pandemic just kept going. So we're actually a Covid success story. Had it not been for the pandemic, I don't know what would have happened. So now we're, I guess unintentionally living together. Then for a couple of reasons, we decided to leave Lake Tahoe, move to Boulder, Colorado for a brief period of time. But Johnny is British and his visa for the States ran out so he actually needed to leave the country. So Johnny goes to Mexico. I end up going down thinking I'm going to go for a visit and then we're going to come back to America. That ended up turning into a year in Mexico. So we're in this like whirlwind of we think it's going to be one way and then it turns out to be this whole other experience. And yeah, at the very end of 2020 in December, we did a 10 day meditation retreat at a beautiful meditation center called Ridaya, which is on the Oaxaca coast in Mazunte. And we're doing this retreat. We had just come out of a really rocky section actually where we almost broke up. We go into this retreat for 10 days. We're doing this heart based meditation practice. It was my first meditation retreat. Your second or third?

Third or fourth? Yeah.

Third or fourth? Yeah. So we're doing this heart based practice. The men and women are separated. We're not meant to talk or engage with each other the whole time. And yet we keep like slipping each other these little love notes. One of our love languages is macadamia nuts and chocolate. So we're like slipping each other's snacks into each other's rooms, just sort of like flirting throughout the meditation retreat, which again is like a big no, no. Which just made it way more exciting. And on the 10th day of their curriculum we did a whole contemplation on mortality. And yeah, they drop us into our hearts and then they drop in this bomb of really viscerally feeling the impermanence of your life. And then the question, if you had one year left to live in perfect health, what would you do? And the answers that came and flashed in my mind were I would marry Johnny and I would heal the relationship I have with certain family members. And I very successfully did one of those things within a matter of days. So all of a sudden I'm bawling in this whole contemplation on death at the end of that, that sit practice, go out on this balcony. I am like weeping, looking out over the ocean. Johnny comes and sits next to me and we have our journals and I just write in my journal if you'll have me. I'm Totally and wholeheartedly yours. I slide him the journal on the ground with a pen and he writes, I will, and slides it back. And it was like, did we just get engaged? I don't really know. That wasn't I do. That was, I will. What is that? That same day, Johnny goes into the dark room, which is exactly what it sounds like. It's a sensory deprivation room where he's completely alone in the dark for 10 days to meditate without light. So we don't actually talk. I say goodbye to him in that room. He does that for 10 days, and then I go in for five days. So we take turns. And yeah, on my. On my day coming out, that you're meant to get the person out of the room right before sunrise so that the first light they see is early sunrise light. That way it's not too overwhelming on the. On the brain and the eyes, but also, it's just so beautiful. And so he comes, he gets me out of the room. I've got a blindfold on. He starts walking me down to the beach, which is right outside of this meditation center. And, yeah, we sit down, takes off the blindfold, and the thing I see is 50 red roses. Like a whole proposal scene. Mugs of cacao, a poem. Actually, the first thing I saw was the. The random dude, he got to photograph the whole thing, who's, like, sitting behind a rock, just, like, staring at me with a camera. And I was like, oh, I can also hear our. Our street rescue kitten Luna, meowing. And I was like, he brought the cat. Why would he bring the cat? For this moment. And I, I kind of. I knew this was going to happen. There's just enough energy. It was just a clear knowing that, yeah, we were going to get engaged after this dark room experience. And then we decided to host our own soul marriage. So not a legal. A legally binding marriage, but a soul ceremony 12 days later. So we have two wedding anniversaries. Our soul wedding on December 27th, and then our legal wedding, which was September 27th, two. Two and a half years later. Yeah. So that was our. Our origin story.

Wow, that's hell of a story. Alluded to sort of having some troubles that you were. You guys were making up from. How did you know how to differentiate between sort of, hey, these are the struggles that will make us stronger that we can work through together versus, hey, are these the troubles that are maybe some incompatibility or, you know, maybe. Maybe it's not a fit? And I guess, what advice would you have for other Couples who, you know, are going through something similar.

I know I've been talking a lot, but I feel like that's still. That's still my question.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

So I'll just be quite transparent. It was mostly me being very unsure and working through like deeply ingrained commitment problems. And, you know, I feel like the word like commitment probs or like commitment issues just kind of like thrown around, but actually like it. It's like deeply formed in the attachment systems with parents and our relational safety as we're growing up and what was modeled to us. So it very much touches on trauma and some really deep, deep areas, the nervous system and what feels safe and whatnot. And my parents had divorced. I saw a rotating door of stepmoms and stepdads and just a lot of unhealthy different marriage examples. And it was very. For me, it felt unsafe to be in a long term relationship. Like, no matter what, I just hit a certain moment and then my system would go like, nope, I gotta get out of here. My avoidant attachment style would flare and I would go, run for the next patch of green grass, if you will. And so that's basically what had happened. I was feeling really dysregulated with the whole living in a foreign country, not knowing what our plan was, not having a sense of rootedness, feeling a bit of like the turbulence of COVID and just our choice to be in Mexico was both beautiful but also very ungrounding. And there was a sense of like, I gotta get out of this. And maybe it's the relationship that's causing this. And the retreat was very illuminating. And I worked through some of my stuff in that retreat. And I would say, like, the knowing of, oh, I want to get married to Johnny. That answer came from purely just my heart. When your heart is open, there's like such a deep, profound knowing of what's right for you, but it's so vulnerable. And then of course, like, I don't live in that state. It actually feels like you're kind of on drugs when your heart is fully open. It's like very. It's very psychedelic. So, you know, the heart kind of closes back up again to be in its normal day to day state. And so even after we got married and that soul ceremony, it took about another year and a half for all of this to get worked through for me to actually be ready to get married. Which is now, I think one of the purposes of an engagement of like, you get engaged, you start trending towards that deep commitment and then you sit with all the stuff that might surface that actually is now only going to come up because there's a deeper level of commitment. And I kind of attribute it to, like, it's like a rubber band. Like, I was like, trying to stretch and like, it. It wasn't going to fully break, though. And then we'd like pendulum back together. And I. And big kudos to our couples coach and couples therapist, who we started working with her shortly after. And the thing that we had to learn, that I had to learn my body had to learn, was how I could be a sovereign, individual woman and be in partnership. And I had this story like, well, I need to go find myself still before I commit to another human. As if I hadn't really found myself yet. And we had to really work out. Like, no, I could keep finding myself, keep discovering who I am in partnership. And actually, maybe the partnership can be a greater catalyst to discovering who I am than if I was just out in the world on my own. And so that was a real unlearning and relearning of a whole new story. And it took about a year and a half, almost two years for it to really land. But now it's here and now it's life changing. And I'm like, no, commitment is the way. And I have a lot of empathy for those who, you know, who. Commitment is not something that feels safe in their system.

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Johnny, one of the bullets you sent me was viewing marriage and partnership as an arena for surfacing our own shit. That's fun. What, what Kelly just said. So maybe you can reflect on that a little bit what that was like for you.

Yeah, totally. Well, I think to kind of like to your original question around like how do you know if the problems are, will strengthen the relationship over time versus like maybe be incompatible? I mean I think really the only long term incompatibility is if a you're both unable or maybe one of you is unable to kind of move through conflict and like you just. Yeah, I think that's like almost like can be really challenging. And then secondly like honestly that belief of like viewing partnership, long term partnership, at least to some degree as a vehicle for growth and kind of it is going to be the place where your most vulnerable insecurities and triggers and vulnerabilities surface. And so to some degree, obviously no one gets it 100% of the time, but to some degree showing up with that as part of the kind of motivation I guess for the process. And in that story that Kelly told, one of the big things for me was I remember there was a point where the story that she told around wanting to kind of find herself and go back to the States was so compelling that there was a point where I was like, well, if this is truly what you think is best for you, then even though I love you and I want to be with you, then I guess it makes sense that we part ways and that I'll just have to trust that somehow we find our way back together. And that for me was like a very, it was like a very terrifying thing to say to almost like let go with just this like hope that we find our way back back together again. But yeah, I mean, and I think since then we've, we've definitely got a lot better at the showing up in conflict and kind of the repair, rupture, repair process and kind of. Yeah, I think that's probably, I mean I imagine most couples get better at.

That with time and can you talk about how you've gotten better at that or what that looks like or what other couples can potentially learn from.

Yeah. Well, where do we begin? I mean, certainly working with our couples therapist has been amazing and doing that almost since, like, the beginning as well, since when we got engaged, as opposed to, like, waiting for something big to happen. So, like, having her reflections as, like, a neutral third party was really, really helpful in the places and times where we got stuck and we didn't feel like there was, like, you know, an obvious way forward. I mean, some of the things are, like, we kind of have a rule now. Like, if we're both triggered or we're both kind of, like, beyond our capacity, then one of us will kind of say, like, just, like, pause, like, time out. We're like, go away, kind of downshift, come back to ourselves, and then come back when we have capacity. What comes to mind for. I mean, this could be the whole episode, I imagine.

Well, I think just the foundational shared value, and I don't want to say belief, but the shared perspective that everything can be worked out in the partnership. And something our couples coach said. There's only one reason for a couple to end, and it's one person is committed to their growth and the other one is not. And if that other person who's not wanting to grow or lean in, just. That doesn't change, then, you know, that's really quite unworkable. But if both parties are committed to their growth, then technically, everything can just become grist for the mill. Or as we like to say. Cause we're cute. Grist for the Millers and. And, like, my attachment and, like, fear of commitment, stuff, like, had to wrestle with that, but when it finally all clicked of, like, oh, shoot, yeah, we can work on everything in here. Like, and we haven't actually experienced some of the things that, you know, can get really derailing. Like if. If we wanted to turn the relationship into poly or open and these other things. But I know that we've cultivated such deep trust that all of our desires, all of our wants, all of our stuff has space to be revealed.

Mm.

And then we'll just be in the arena together. And so I feel like it's just been a lot of learning tools, practices, techniques, perspectives of conscious communication, nonviolent communication, emotional processing, nervous system regulation, so that, you know, we can just be in the arena with whatever comes up instead of trying to, like, control what comes up. We're just. We're in it. We're like. We're here for whatever. If it's like, a new, deeper trauma that's being revealed or all of a Sudden one of us really wants something that we didn't realize we wanted before. Like, we're like, hey, I know that I'm here to love and support Johnny in all of his versions and evolutions and change, just like he is for me. And I think that's what's really exciting about the whole thing. Truly. There's no stagnation when we're both committed to our own individual and shared aliveness and growth.

Yeah, I think we're getting, we're getting better at like really owning our needs, even if they seem kind of inconvenient. And even things like expressing like mini, like tantra temper. Temper tantrums and just like, yeah, just, just like expressing frustration or also like holding space for each other when emotions are arising. I think that's something that we've both become just really like naturally skilled at. I mean, we both do it to some degree for work as well. But I think knowing that like, if something comes up for me that I can kind of like say to Kelly, like, hey, can I just like lie down and can you like hold me for a few minutes while I move through this emotion? It's like, I mean, I wouldn't have done that like a few years ago. That would have been awkward and terrifying. But it's now incredibly.

Or you wouldn't have even thought of it.

Oh yeah, right. It just would have. Yeah, it wouldn't have occurred to me at all. But that's.

I want to, I want to double click on this whole temper tantrum thing. Not a, not a tantra tantrum, although it probably could turn into that. We have this really. I think it's quite cute and it's surprisingly effective when there's like frustration between us. There's a field. People will talk about this. There's the relational field, there's a group field. So, so there's literally like a space. There's me, there's Johnny, and then there's the we. And we're getting really sensitive to literally feeling the we field. And if there's tension or unresolved conflict or a grievance or a resentment, like we can feel it in the field. And there's just a sense of like, oh, like we're not quite comfy with each other right now and we really should like, what's, what's here, what's happening. And something I think would be great to talk about is our, our Sunday check in process that we have where we do deeper dives into this. But even anytime, like it happened the other morning where you're like, okay, what's going on in the field? And oftentimes for me, it's just, like, it's a frustration around maybe the house, or, you know, maybe I'm feeling a little needy, and he's really deep in work, and I just, like, want some attention or there's something going on with our dog.

I left the door open in the kitchen.

Yeah, he left the door open in the kitchen while I was meditating. And it was, like, 40 degrees outside, and I'm sitting there like, oh, now I have to get out of my meditation to close the door. These little things, right? Which would be easy to just be like, I'll just shrug it off. We can feel the tension of it, and instead of it, like, getting pushed away and then blowing up later with some story of, like, you never do, blah, blah, blah, you know, like, none of that is skillful. We'll just go up to each other and just, like, start stomping our feet and just being like. And, like, I'll just, like, lightly punch him, like, and then, like, shake it off. And then it's like, we move the energy while simultaneously. It's ridiculous. And then we start to laugh and have fun a little bit, which is, like, cut through all the tension. And then I can just be like, I'm cold. When you leave the door open like that, will you please. You know, will you please close the door after opening it so that I can just get to the thing more easily? And I think that's been a big part of us, for us, is conflict resolution in a skillful way, but also just, like, making it more lighthearted and fun and playful. And we go through the really serious stuff, too, but we can nip a lot of the small things in the bud with more play.

Are you guys a believer in the sort of, do you want to be happy or do you want to be right? Or is that too crude or doesn't get at the. The idea.

We definitely don't do right and wrong, and we also don't bypass to try to get to happy. It's. It's kind of like being in the arena where there's just, like, like, what's really here and what we've found. It's almost like we're, like, wrestling with the thing and, like, trying to peel back the layers, and we're, like, looking at it from different angles.

Mm.

Because it's clear when something is truly resolved. There's, like, a full exhale and sense of relief and literally, our field. I'm like, oh, our field feels sparkly and clean between us now. Like, yeah, I just want to cuddle up with you. And I forget where I read this, but it said something like, until our bodies want to get close to each other and actually touch and maybe cuddle, something is still there. Like, actually, that's a sense of. And I guess that's a litmus test of, like, how close do we feel? And if we don't want to get all intimate with each other and that could just be, like, a hug, then something's standing in the way, and let's. Let's clear. Clear that out. So I think instead, it's just like, finding what's there. And there's been a few moments where we'll wrestle with something for hours maybe, and then one of us will say a sentence, and it's just the right thing. And all of a sudden, like, tears might come and, like, it's like, oh, that was it. Oh, my God. I had no idea. I just needed you to say that thing. And then you just feel this massive relief, both in the body and. And then in the connection.

Are you.

To what extent do you. Do you think something like nonviolent communication is. Where. Where is it helpful, not helpful, or are there other conflict sort of resolution frameworks that we haven't yet discussed that are inspiring to you or have been helpful to you?

Yeah, I think nonviolent communication is, like, a good starting point. Kelly's also done quite a bit of authentic relating training, which is also kind of really good. I think sometimes they can become a little bit too formulaic and frameworky, and in some ways, any framework can also be kind of, like, weaponized in a way where you can, like, manipulate it to kind of still get what you want without being vulnerable and without really rereading the thing. Or you can kind of go too far, like, the kind of, like, radical candor approach where you honor your truth, so to speak, but you do it in a way that isn't really attuned or, like, caring about the other person. And so I think, like, really, I think it is kind of like practice in attunement, both to yourself and what's coming up for you, but also the other person. And really practice and finding what actually works for you, both without having to remember a sentence stem, or I say this and then this, and then the story I'm telling myself about this is. And it's helpful, I think, especially in the beginning, if you're just trying these things out. But ultimately, I think it has to become A natural kind of just way that you guys communicate. If you want to add anything to that.

Yeah, Johnny and I have. We came into this relationship with different, I'd say, orientations of communication where I just. Some of my patterning is having a bit of a sharp tongue can be more judgmental and critical. And so through our process of me seeing those patterns more and learning to dig underneath them and actually see, like, what is the feeling here for me. And so, yeah, NBC and authentic relating those. Those frameworks have been helpful for me to unlearn and relearn, like, kind and effective ways to talk to other humans and. And while simultaneously getting your needs met in ways that, like, we just didn't learn growing up or see model to us. And so I think they're amazing places to begin. And then we just find our own way into communicating with each other. But even still, there's ways where one of us will reflect back to the other person. Like, hey, you're in story right now. What's the feeling that you're not feeling? Or what is it that you're actually wanting? And so it's both. Where there's like a. We both are taking responsibility for being effective communicators, but also effective listeners who could help guide the ship if it's getting into unhelpful, rough waters, I guess. And even some of those times where it's not skillful and maybe there's, like, anger coming out that feels kind of kinked and it feels a little, like, sideways and maybe mean or. Yeah, even that. Instead of making that wrong, like, it just comes into the arena, too. And so it is. I really think it's like a wrestling, but not an aggressive way. We're just working through the layers together. And over time, gradually, I see that our communication patterns are inherently more loving, supportive, optimistic, uplifting, encouraging. And there's just deep safety, I think, is, at the end of the day, like, even if I come into a conversation and I'm not doing it well, or not doing it to an NVC level, like, I know I'm still so loved and accepted in this partnership, and we can repair from that, too.

Yeah. Something that's been really helpful for me was realizing that I can say something along the lines of, like, I really care about what it is that. That Kelly's saying, like, the content of what you're doing, but the way that it's being communicated is making it really hard for me to show up and not get defensive and put up my boundaries. So could you maybe rephrase that in a way that isn't kind of attacking me. And that actually really. And kind of being attuned to when a certain phrasing causes me to kind of contract or tighten or feel defensive and then just naming that and almost doing a redo that I think is really helpful because it's, it allows you to share the thing that's really on your mind, but allows me to also show up without in a kind of me versus you kind of dynamic, which I think is kind of what we try and come back to is being on the same side of the table of how can we both figure this out? How can we both problem solve or find truth or find a kind of third door scenario to whatever this challenge is that we're experiencing. Because we both love each other, we both want each other to be happy. And so how can we work as a team towards that?

Yeah. And just this idea of marriage, intimate partnership is a crucible for our awakening, our growth, our transformation is some of the stuff that gets called to the surface, could be younger parts of us, old patterns for me, like the inability to express my anger in my bile, in my growing up family, you know, so there was like a kinked way of being with anger. Like that younger part of me, she comes out and she just wants to thrash and yell. And so there's, there's a sense of responsibility of like it's, I need to take responsibility for what I bring to the table. My woundings, my parts, my inner children. And it's always so fascinating to see how we, he, we married each other and have like the perfect polarizing parts, right? Where like maybe my anger comes out and then his shame comes out and then we're just like in this dance together that could be self reinforcing, but we know this about each other now. And so at the earliest sign of my frustration, before it becomes anger or something that feels really intense to work with, you know, we can actually be with it sooner because we're like, oh, okay, we've danced this dance before and oh yeah, that's my inner 16 year old. And something that I just as an individual am working on is more parts work with internal family systems and getting a clear sense of like who's actually here right now. Is this my like my queen who knows how to love her king and lift him up and you know, be an amazing partner or is this other part of me who feels angry and vindictive and you know, wants revenge? It's like, well, I don't want her running the show. But she's clearly here, so let's, let's be with her. And I think the more we learn these tools of self healing for ourselves individuals, the more we can show up for our partners and take that responsibility of what we bring to the table in this, in this lifetime.

Yeah. And then maybe to kind of piggyback off that, I think. And it's also really, really important to have people like, support, like outside of your primary partnership. Whether that's like a men's group, women's group, coach, therapists, all the above. All of the above, ideally. Because. Yeah. At the end of the day, if you're kind of asking your partner to be the person to also help with like, you know, unpacking all of this, like deep emotional stuff, then it's great to happen sometimes. But I think if it's like all the time, it almost kind of puts unnecessary or just too much to ask of like one relationship. So. Yeah, I just got it. I wanted to like toss that in there as well.

Yeah, I want to read this. The Jo Hudson quote. We find ourselves attracted to certain people because we have an instinctual way of finding the person who can trigger us the best. And on the other hand, gives us the opportunity for mutual healing.

Nailed it.

And I think also, like, it can sound really heavy of like, oh, we have to do all this healing together, but it's also, it's the other side of the coin. It's the golden side of like, we're also here in this partnership where we call out some of the best qualities in each other too. And we really have been able to do more of the things we want to do in life and become more of the people that we've always aspired to be because of each other. And the same kind of mirroring, but it's also calling forth really positive aspects. So I think it's finding a partner who, who mirrors all sides of that.

Yeah.

Yeah.

I feel like we've become so much more like playful and quirky in the last two or three years since we got married. And yeah, almost like, like younger parts of ourselves just coming out and just.

Being goofy and just like, I think that's safety. I think that's just like so much safety. To be ourselves, to be authentic, to be weird, to. To do the things that we wouldn't necessarily do in public, but now we do do in public together because there's safety. Like we have this. We have this cute little like make made up language that we. It's just like these MERP sounds where we're like. And now we just, like, sing songs. And sometimes it's just the way we greet each other. It's like we had a joke. We're like, we'll do this whole podcast interview and just murphing. I'm like, well, like, I'll come up behind him at the grocery store, let him know that I'm coming. And we do bird calls in public, like, and like, he knows it's me. And. And so there's just a. Yeah. It's like the longer we're together, the more we're made for each other because the more we, like, start to.

It's like a culture gets created.

Yeah. Yeah. And it's like such a culture of belonging for who we are. And I also think that's kind of what's magnetic to other couples and other people where it's like, it feels good to be around us most of the time. Sometimes there's conflict because we're just like. We're just like. It's like this energy of. Yes. Like, let's just be our yes. Selves. Weird, quirky, authentic. It's like, inclusive of all of our parts. So there's an inclusivity with other people too.

Yeah, there's this one school of thought says something like, hey, there's a few great people that you could be with and what really matters. And every relationship is going to have its challenges, and what matters is kind of how you respond to it or grow from it or how you act in any individual thing. But there's, you know, this idea of like, the one is kind of this, you know, romantic fantasy or something, you know, sort of almost Hollywood esque thing. And then. And then there's, you know, this other couple came on our show and they were like, no, actually there is a person, not necessarily the Hollywood the one, but there's a person or maybe even some people for whom you won't have conflict or it's just significantly easier than in other relationships. And of course there's, I guess, a spectrum of like, you know, sort of similarness to sort of different. Where do you land on that? Like, you guys had challenges in this one, just like many couples do. But you also have been in previous dynamics where it didn't end up sort of working out. So how do you reflect on even that framing?

Yeah, I can share. I don't think that there's. There's no such thing as a meaningful, intimate relationship that doesn't have conflicts. I think that's. If someone's in a relationship where that's the case, it's probably. There's just a lot of avoidance going on and, like, walking on eggshells, what happened with us. And I think what tends to happen is when a certain level of safety is reached, that creates the vulnerability for some of the deeper things to surface. And I think the distinction for me is, like, is the conflict somewhat productive? Do you end the conflict feeling closer, feeling more connected, feeling like you've maybe discovered insights about yourself and about each other? And is it. Is. Is conflict still carried out with, like, love? I think that's probably the key thing versus there are. You know, there's obviously certain relationships that are, like, quote unquote, toxic. And I think that's just people like couples going in circles without taking ownership for, like, their own stuff. And so just like, in these constant sparring matches and both people are unable to really dig a bit deeper. Yeah. What are your thoughts on that?

I agree with that. I do think with time, the longer we're together, the more of our stuff has come up. I'd like to believe that at a certain point, less stuff is there to come up because we've processed a lot of it. But who knows? It does. I would say, like, in general, the atmosphere of our relationship has gone from one where, like, conflict and tension was more prevalent to one where now it's like. It's more or less just like a atmosphere of joy and love and connection. And then in the conflict, it can exist in that too, but it's not as frequent. But I just think if two people are committed to their own growth and change, and we truly are, like, being vulnerable and revealing ourselves. I don't know if it has to be phrased as conflict, but there will just be tension. There will be things to look at. I personally have never been in any relationship where there wasn't. And that even includes friendships. Like, at a certain point in a deep, long, intimate friendship, like, things surface. And I think for me, historically, whenever those things would surface, I would. I would bail. Like, that's the avoidant attachment. So I could look back on some past friendships and. And even maybe some boyfriends and say, like, oh, that was so easygoing then, because at the first sign of trouble, like, I left. And so I don't have years of history to think about with those humans. Yeah, that's just my sense on it. And if there's two humans who feel like they've done their work and they're living, like, fully cohesively without conflict, I don't know, I'd be Curious to meet them. I'm not going to say it's impossible. Yeah, there's enlightened beings out there.

Yeah, I'd say maybe the conflicts might not look like conflicts on the outside, but in the nervous system work I talk about shortening the half life of reactivity. So maybe conflict would go from being a two day not talking to each other rupture down to a two minute thing where there's this brief like frustration gets aired and cleared and then you're like back in connection again. So I think that's probably a better sign of progress is like what, what's the half life of the reactivity in the relationship?

And so, and maybe just while we're on the topic, you plug a little bit of your work. For people unfamiliar, like I, you know, another way maybe segue into it is like there are people who will sort of intellectually understand things like authentic relating or non vaccination or other just be mindful about this but sort of be unable to not get triggered or unable to use it when they need it the most. And so maybe this is too broad of a question, but can you share some sort of thoughts on like when people are getting really frustrated in a very reactive way or getting triggered in a certain way, what's happening there or what could people understand that would better help them sort of perceive that something is happening and that they should have a different response to it.

I have thoughts a bit too much.

You have gone for it.

Yeah. So where to begin? So I think maybe the most helpful frame here is knowing like sensing in your body what it feels like when you're triggered versus when you're not. And there's this whole kind of like body of work around somatic markers. And everyone has different reactions. Right. For some people Maybe there's like 10 tension in the chest or the throat starts to kind of tighten or they start to get. And there's actually two modes of reactivity and it's quite helpful to know like which one you tend to orient towards. Some people go into angry, aggressive like hyper arousal and other people and that's more like aggressive. And the others, which is my default is more like kind of withdrawal, emotional shutdown, kind of stonewalling. And so knowing which one you tend to kind of veer towards is helpful. And then ideally instead of waiting until it's like an 8 or a 9 out of 10, notice what is like the 2 out of 10 or the 3 out of 10 kind of like somatic marker. So for me to kind of use the Example, let's say Kelly came to me and started asking me to close the door while she was meditating. And let's say that I took that personally. For some reason. I might notice myself start to maybe withdraw or start to kind of like maybe get slightly hunched over. There's a whole bunch of things that can happen. And I think noticing that, that as soon as you notice any kind of sign prioritizing some kind of self regulation practice, that could just be a deep breath. It could be taking a moment to step outside and feel your feet on the ground. It could be just holding each other for a moment or two and just say, hey, I'm noticing. I'm feeling a little bit activated. I just need to kind of downshift a bit. And prioritizing that coming back into kind of a sense of grounded presence, I think is the most important thing, because it's not going to be possible for or it's very hard to have a productive kind of challenging conversation if both people are in a kind of activated triggered state. So if you can notice the early signs of that and then set aside the content of whatever it is you're talking about and just focus on, okay, what can I we do to get back to a state of like, okay, I feel like I'm back in my body again. I'm not disassociating. I'm not whatever it is and then resume. I think that in itself is a. Is like a really helpful thing.

Yeah, I'll. I'll just say that sometimes I can feel like a level 10 ninja move, as we like to call it, where when you are activated, fill. You filter the world through that activation. And so it can be hard to get the distance you need to even recognize I am activated and I should do something right now to like work on that activation. You almost like, if for me I get more of that hyper arousal of like the frustration. Like, it's almost like the Hulk wants to come out, right? And it's like if the Hulk fully gets to come out, then like, there's no putting the Hulk back in until the destruction has happened. And so it's like trying to through time and time and time again learn like, oh, just the earliest signs of Hulk want to come out. Oh, okay.

Oh.

That. But Johnny, like, we've both gotten pretty good. But Johnny is great at if I'm. If I've been taken by the emotion, been taken by the activation energy. And I don't want to sound like a victim, but like, it can sweep you. He'll Use those exact words that he mentioned earlier of like, hey, I really want to be with you in this thing. But I'm noticing that the energy right now is not conducive for us having a productive conversation. What do you need right now to like be with just the energy or just be with the emotion, you know, to try and get a separation between the words and the content, the thing you think is the problem and just the energy and the emotion and it just, it's just practice. And so the more that a couple can do that practice together and you know, whether it's taking workshops, taking Johnny's nervous system mastery, just learning more about the nervous system state states and tracking them in their own bodies, just the more awareness there will be and then the teamwork of, you know, supporting that process when it's happening.

That's very helpful. Last question on this specific topic, which is for someone who's more sort of, let's say a rationalist, you know, more this kind of thin and sort of implicitly skeptical, the feel your feelings or they think it's kind of woo or something like that. How would you explain in terms of they could understand why that is effective, like what's actually happening that leads it to, to work and why you can't really just. Or it may be less effective just like be rational, you know, abstract yourself from it, sort of detach rather than sort of actually like feel it intently. Sometimes these people sort of read stoicism or Buddhism or something and feel like, oh, you just gotta detach from everything. How would you explain to just someone like that?

Yeah, and there's a bunch of directions we could go in there, I think. Well, one is like if you're kind of perpetually detached and semi disassociated, it's going to be really hard to create connection. So I think that's just like one, it's not a. In my experience, it's not a great way to live your life. Secondly, if, let's say using the example of anger, if like anger is constantly kind of like there's a subtle difference between like witnessing and watching versus bypassing and repressing. But I think in my experience more people than would care to admit tend to be the type generally they've had some experience in childhood of like, anger is bad in some way. Anger hurts people. Anger is I'm bad for expressing my anger. And so it gets pushed down and that creates, I think of it as like emotional debt. So it causes fragility in the nervous system. It comes out kinked in other ways as well, like either kind of like explosions or compulsive behavior, things like that. And I mean, maybe to kind of like borrow from Joe Hudson, just like run the experiment. I mean, try like in one situation, try expressing the anger, not at someone, but just like letting it move through and like feeling that aliveness that's there. And then another time, try just like being like, oh, I'm not angry. I'm just going to let it go and just see, see what happens. Yeah. I don't like giving like generic advice, but more just like, yeah, try it out.

Basically that makes sense. I want to segue into something you alluded to earlier, which is the weekly practice that you have, the Tekken practice. What one you share how you guys do it and what it means to you or what sort of your pitch is for other couples to consider, like, should they have something similar and why?

Yeah, well, as the pitch for it, two anniversaries ago. Oh yeah, we were celebrating again. We have two weddings. So one of them, it was one of them. And we were just celebrating like, oh, wow, we've come such a far away. What is like the one thing you're most proud of from this past year? And, and Johnny said it's, it's the fact that we showed up for pretty much every partnership check in on Sundays and without it, I don't know if we'd be married. And I was like, oh my God, like, has our, is the success of our marriage completely contingent on these, like two hours on Sundays? It's probably a bit of an exaggeration, but it's such a profound practice that I, yeah, I would love to share it with more of the world. And it's just like, this is our own version. I. But I do recommend that couples find their own version. I think the most important thing is consistency. And so what we do is we meet every Sunday. It's on our calendars. As entrepreneurs, we completely live by what is in our Google calendars. So it's just there as a recurring meeting every Sunday. And, and we really hold that in a sacred way. We don't schedule anything over that time or anywhere near that time. And it's about two hours. Sometimes it's less, sometimes it's, it's more if there's processing or things that want to come through. And what we, the structure of it is we sit on the ground on backjacks, facing each other. We usually make some tea, have like a beverage and we do our own personal check in and we just share the framework used to be how are you in body, mind, spirit, or I'm sorry, physical, mental, emotional and spiritual. Sometimes I just want to talk about like how I'm doing just more broadly or like what's been coming up for me with work. I just want more of like an open ended expression of that check in process in the beginning, but just like where are we as individuals? And then we do a round of gratitudes so we share everything that we're really grateful for from the week prior, which can be things we're grateful for that the other person did, just things that we're generally grateful for of the abundance of our life. It can be things that other people did, but we really try to feel the gratitude and the appreciation in our bodies. So starting on that high note and then we do do oversight, which is basically like an integrity check. So now knowing what I know with hindsight, here's what I could have done differently this past week. A lot of times for us it's like I could have not scheduled myself so much, I could have taken more rest time. I, you know, things of that nature where we recognize the actions we took as individuals had a ripple effect through the partnership, through our family. So we just recognize like, hey, I was really busy this week and I recognize that probably had impact for you. And then we go into grievances or clearings. So that's something that we kind of bring to the other person that we didn't feel like we needed to clear throughout the week. So it could be like, man, I noticed you left the door open three times this week. Like it's really, you know, and then we like talk about that. It's, it's usually in the do overs and the clearings where some type of emotional thing will arise or a resentment that has been really subtle all of a sudden comes to the forefront. So we can spend a lot of time on that section, but it's a really cathartic section, I'd say. And then from there that's kind of like section 1. We usually take like a deep breath, a bathroom break, get a snack after that. And then we go into topics. And topics are essentially just our partnership to do. List our logistics and I don't know about other couples, but every single week we just have a mountain of to dos that we have to coordinate from dog food and allergy medication to, you know, we share a car. And so we work on that schedule for the next week to vacation planning. We're moving to Costa Rica in July and we're going to be building a home. So we, we've been talking a lot about that every Sunday. And then we just, yeah. Kind of get through all of our topics and usually end on the other side, like fully exhausted, laying on each other, going like, oh, okay, good job. It keeps our partnership moving forward logistically really well. And then also emotionally, mentally, and with connection. And then we try on the days where we have bandwidth, we also will try to, on the other side or at some point in it, actually spend some real intimate time with each other and prioritize. Yeah. Sundays for also, like our sexual connection. And it's really just like a day for us. It's the one day a week where we're really like, this is for us. Yeah. You want to add anything?

I guess just like, acknowledgement that if and when we have kids that we may not be able to take like the full day for ourselves. If there's couples listening who have a kid or two and they're probably rolling.

Their eyes like, yeah, right. Yeah, I'm not going to do that.

I don't have like time for like a two or three hour check in on Sundays. Yeah.

It can meet you where you're at. Even 10 minutes of checking in of just like, hey, how you doing? Okay. What do we need to do this next week? Are you feeling any tension? Like, you could power through something faster.

I'm sure there could be a streamlined version.

Yeah. But we notice if we don't do it, we can maybe miss one and things are still good. But if we miss two or three, like that field. That field is holding tension and we just get sloppy in terms of like the. All the plates that we're trying to juggle together. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

But some people will say the opposite from what the people with kids might say, which is, oh, is this too much sort of overthinking of the relationship or, like, are you creating more space for conflict by sort of constantly bringing it up? You could counter with sort of the, hey, why don't you just try it and, you know, figure out what works for you or doesn't work for you or sort of the Igor and Liv said this thing of like, hey, you know, it. It prevents bigger fights down the road. Yeah. We maybe we have smaller conflicts that emerge from this, but we sort of nip it in the bud. And so it's like largely preventive as opposed to, you know, make. Inventing.

Yeah, it's like preventative medicine.

Yeah, I, I mean, I think I'm very much in like the live and Igor camp With that one in terms of small resentments to. And what, what becomes pernicious is they could accumulate into like a perspective or a story about the partner, which then like once you start viewing your partner through a lens of like, oh, they always do X, Y, Z. That's when it can kind of like.

Really snowball when you label it, like, oh, Johnny's lazy because I've been, oops, sorry, there's our dog because I've, you know, he does these things where these check ins are an opportunity to just nip all of that in the buddy and keep coming back to the more generous assumptions that we can make about each other just being better teammates. Close the door. The other thing I wanted to share is like, we don't always have a bunch of clearing. You know, if we're, if we're doing this weekly, like last Sunday, we just stared at each other with the resentment category and we're like.

No, I feel.

Pretty good right now. Like, just a lot of love and gratitude. I was like, okay.

It'S always nice when it happens.

Yeah, yeah, it's always a nice little break. So no, I don't think we're, I don't think we're making it more difficult or challenging or like inviting conflict. We're just, we're inviting intimacy, connection, and really being a team with life.

You mentioned kids. How have you guys thought about children and how has that evolved? John is pointing at Kelly.

Well, we're gonna, we're calling it the conception portal. We're going to open the conception portal in a, about five weeks from now. Yeah. Which has been a real journey for us to get here. Johnny's 36, I'll be 36 in May. And so we're at that age where it's like, it's really good to know whether we want to do this or not. And it took a little bit of wrestling, our, our wrestling style to, to land here. For me, historically, I, I felt like a no to being a mom and having kids and a lot of deep inner work to arrive at my truly authentic yes. And a big part of that is having a clear sense of what I need and desire to have in place so that we can have a family in the way that actually feels inspiring and fun and like something I genuinely want to do. And it's called us into greater alignment and courage in our lifestyle design. And so for me, the big thing was I want to raise kids in community to the degree that we can. We have small families and we don't live anywhere near Them and personally don't want to have to just hire a bunch of babysitters to come in and out and not have that depth of intimacy. And so we've decided to, yeah, move countries, join a project with about 10 other families where we're kind of all co raising kids, some, not everyone, but a good majority of them like co raising kids of different ages together. And that will allow us as parents to feel well supported and I think it will give the kids a really beautiful upbringing. And so it's just been this really nice journey of figuring out what do we need as parents to thrive and then taking action because ultimately we haven't been the type of people who will like, do it. No have kids no matter what. Like it felt kind of edgy to say at the beginning of like, oh, I have conditions to do that, to step into that chapter and cool. Now that those conditions are clear, now we have a vision to move towards. So yeah, the like, the dream is two, maybe three kids if we can and to start that really soon and.

Share more about the living in or raising your kids in community part. Because I think it sounds probably impractical to, to most couples or like, hey, they'd want their like or most people probably aren't sold on that so. But they're curious to learn more and so share more about why that is more desirable than, than having a bunch of babysitters or something but having your total privacy and sort of living in. Well, I don't know, not everyone lives in the city. A lot of people live in the suburbs. But not having to move countries perhaps. Why don't you share more about.

Sure, yeah. I mean it's huge and it's completely unrealistic for the majority of people. There's a real, real privilege for us to be able to do this. And I think it's also just like having a courageous spirit to make such a big lifestyle change in the pursuit of a family vision that feels expansive and good for us. Yeah, I can just speak to my own, my own need. There is, you know, having grown up with a, a very small family, babysitters, two full time working parents, and then divorce, you know, spending the majority of my time at school and with babysitters and at a certain age just being home alone for hours and hours with TV and Nintendo, to me it was not a generative way of growing up. And we have, we've had exposure to people who've just chosen alternative ways of raising kids, whether that's moving to one of the Hawaiian islands and like having a ranch house and, you know, growing up kind of wild and near the surf break or we've. Since we've been nomadic, we've just met these pretty incredible couples who just move to these foreign places and try and give their children a different type of upbringing. And here, you know, to be honest, if it was easier to do in America, I would stay here. It's just not, you know, it's. It's hard to buy land. It's hard to build multiple family homes on one plot of land. It takes a ton of resources in order to do the zoning laws or do not work in favor of people truly living in community here. And so Phil Levin, you know, who has been on your. On your show, I believe it's on the Radish blog that talks about, like, what are the different models that you can try? And the best one that I've seen in for America is like, can you coordinate all of your friends buying the homes in a culdesac so that you can just like, take over the end of a culdesac, you know, and just sort of have your own little, like, compound there? I think that sounds really cool. And yet we don't have other couples who want to do that and. Or agree on place. And I think as a mother, like, I don't want to feel resentful of the path, which means I need support. I think all. All mothers, all parents need more support than what they probably are able to get. We usually think that the kids are the ones who need all the support, but actually, I think it's the parents who need a lot of the support. And so I think raising healthy, strong, connected, regulated families, like, takes a village. I think there's a real reason why that's a saying. And we've just as modern humans have gotten really far from kind of that village lifestyle. And there's a real movement happening right now to reclaim that and a lot of visionary humans who are trying to figure out how to do it in America. And people are also looking elsewhere where land and zoning and all of that is a little bit easier to navigate. So that's the route we're choosing just because we're right at the cusp of wanting kids. And to me, the vision just feels so beautiful to, you know, be pregnant and be around other moms who have done the. Who've already walked that path before me and get to surround me in that process and Johnny. And we're being held in this huge transition and rite of passage and that our child and hopefully Children will get to grow up with this wider group of humans that love them, know them, support them, while also like, yeah, living on land. And I don't know, I really do feel like it's the dream for many and it just takes some creativity and gumption to make it happen. And if anyone who listens to this is like, how do I do it? I'd be super happy to talk to anyone, just like brainstorm different options. And I do hope and think it will get easier in the next couple of decades because genuinely I think it's the way humans are meant to live. And so there will be a natural.

Trajectory back into that that's well articulated just because you mentioned it earlier. It was in passing of something you haven't even gotten to yet. But I'm curious, given the communities that you sort of spend time in, if you have any thoughts on poly.

Yeah, why don't you go.

Yeah, well, we, we have quite a few friends, you know, living Bay adjacent that are definitely exploring that.

What is Bay adjacent?

Like living in the, in and around the Bay Area, basically in San Francisco. I think that. So neither of us have experimented with it much, so we're kind of speaking from a place of not much experience. My sense is that it's a very fierce and beautiful path for really upskilling at communication and attunement and just very navigating skillful and potentially kind of landmine ridden territory. And if that's what you're deliberately signing up for and that's what you want and you're approaching it as a way to kind of, I guess, upskill in those areas, then beautiful. Yeah, I just, I sense it. And it also, you know, it just takes a lot of bandwidth as well. Like if you're kind of like managing multiple relationships and interactions and repairs and after ruptures and things like that, I guess we've both been curious, but not curious enough to like actually open up.

Yeah, we're like curious witnesses of like, huh, what's going on over there? Like, that's so interesting. I don't feel a pull towards it. Totally love and accept it and see it being a huge catalyst of growth for many people. And you know, I've talked to folks who say, like, I just have so much love to give that I need to give it to multiple partners. And that's great. And I also, I don't know if it's a trade off of breadth over depth. I know for me personally, if I was trying to do all the things I'm doing right now in life and be in this solid marriage with Johnny and then invite another human in to like develop a deeply meaningful relationship with. I simply don't have enough time and energy for that. Don't have enough Sundays to do all the check ins that would be necessary. Yeah. And, and I just, I, I do find it so interesting. There's a lot of different formations. We recently met a throuple, you know, so three people and they're raising kids together. And Yeah, I, I just love love and I love all the different expressions of it. And I think Johnny and I have found the expression that works best for us, at least for this time chapter of life. Yeah, totally cool.

Is, Is, is there anything we haven't gotten to before, before wrapping up this podcast that feels interesting or on your mind or that something you think that other couples should. Could learn from your experience?

I feel like my vulnerability is that so much of this conversation was about like rupture and repair and it just sounds like maybe we're just like constantly and like fighting and repairing.

It's like the juicy stuff.

It is the juicy stuff. Yeah. But like, I don't. To me, it's just also like, why, why be in such committed, deep partnership? Of course there's the spiritual personal growth orientation of being in that arena with another human. Will surface the things. And it's just like a lot, very often we go, God, I love being married. Like, it's just so fun. I love coming home to you. I love, I love just making these weird noises before we go to bed. I, I love the, the comfortability and the familiarity of just being with you. Truly. I mean, I can be my most authentic self with Johnny more than any other human. And that's something I'm working on of like, can I be that version of myself with all other humans no matter what? And that's been a real gift to just come and have at least one human that is like 100% a safe space for all of me, all of me in my different parts. And yeah, I just really hope that people, when they step into partnership, also leaning towards like, what do we want to be? What do we want to take a stand for with each other? What does this partnership represent? And really cultivating that and, and living into it. And so for a lot of times it's our practice is like remembering how freaking great everything actually really is and seeing each other with new eyes, seeing each other with that wonderment that we first met each other with, cultivating the spark and the aliveness and the connection and the play. And, you know, when we both work from home, as entrepreneurs who are busy, we can really get into modes of. We can get into roommate mode, we can get into colleague mode. We can get into a lot of modes that aren't necessarily, like, sexy or fun or sweet. And there's a lot of role switching, I guess, where we have to, like, be conscious of our energy that we bring into each moment. Like, okay, let's shake off the work mode and then, like, step back into fun and playful mode. And that's been a real. A real, I think, like, learning area for us of how to show up for each other in the ways that are most generative and keep the aliveness going.

Mm.

Yeah. And so just, I guess, encouragement for couples to, like, find their North Star, find that deep sense of secure attachment so you can be your most authentic, weird, wonderful self and keep exploring all the different facets that you guys get to be together and then invite other people in. You know, one our favorite thing is having other couples that we get to go and do things with and learning from them. We do, like, couples trips, couples weekends, couples retreats.

Yeah. I think something that we're curious to explore is like, actually this idea is from Jo and Tara. They had a couple's, like a couple circle where I think it was like four or five couples met for like 15 years every. I think it was every three months, like, exploring. What have you guys been learning? In what ways do you need support? And I think we'd love to create or join a group like that as well of, like, conscious couples exploring some of these questions.

Yeah, we were talking about that offline the other day. I'm surprised there isn't more infrastructure around that already. To your earlier point, it seems like, you know, people get a couple therapists once, once it's almost too late or just really late in the process and having support earlier, whether it's, you know, two on one coach or service, you know, settled couples trying to figure things out or grow together. Sounds like it would be really constructive with that. Johnny Kelly, thank you for sharing your wisdom with us. This was a fantastic episode.

Thank you, Eric, for the great question.

Eric.

Yeah, super fun.

Enjoyed this. The first podcast we've done together, I think.

Yeah, it's great.

Amazing.

Thanks for listening to Modern Relationships. Please make sure you're following on Apple, Spotify or YouTube if you have a chance. Chance. Leave us a review or comment on this episode to let me know who else you'd like to hear from on this show. Modern Relationships is a podcast from Turpentine, the network behind Econ 102 upstream and Turpentine VC.