Julie Zhuo: How to give and receive feedback | Maven Lightning Lesson

Welcome, welcome. So today we're going to talk about feedback. And I really, I'm. I'm absolutely obsessed with feedback and I didn't used to be, in fact, I really sucked at feedback. And I still consider this to be an area that I am actively working on and trying to improve in. I'm going to go and actually start sharing my screen. So I wanted to talk a little bit about the art of giving and receiving feedback. And the reason it's so important to me is because I truly, truly do believe that it makes such a big difference, not just to our careers, but also to the satisfaction that we get in our day to day and the relationships that we can form with the people that we work with. And I think my feedback journey started in that it didn't start, like I said, did not give feedback. I was really bad at getting feedback. I was, was really nervous about feedback. And I think it started with just a series of beliefs I had about feedback which may be familiar to some of you. So let us go through them. These are the three things I used to believe and thumbs up or show me a reaction if any of these resonate. So the first thing I used to believe is that hey, if I'm getting feedback, I'm doing something wrong. And so it would be ideal if I didn't get feedback because then I would mean I'm doing things right. The second thing I used to believe is that it's more the senior people on the team, people who are experienced, tech leads, managers, executives that are supposed to give feedback to people earlier in their career or the folks on the team that they're leading or individual contributors. Does that resonate with anyone? And finally, I believe that good feedback is positive feedback. And so conversely, if I'm getting critical feedback, that that is bad feedback. And I felt these so strongly that it really impacted both how I received and I gave feedback. So first I wouldn't if, you know, if I would be very hard pressed to give feedback. Of course sometimes there would be peer review cycle or 360review cycles and I'd be like, all right, I gotta like, you know, take a deep breath and actually give some feedback. But I think I would try and have this intent of like, oh, I need to give very positive feedback. And it's so hard to say something negative because that just means that either I'm saying the other person is doing something wrong or I'm essentially giving bad feedback. And so the first thing that had to happen for me to actually start embracing feedback is I had to change some of these beliefs. And so if any of these beliefs do resonate, I hope that if there's anything that you take away, it's that there's another way to think about what, how we think about what feedback is. And so here's essentially a reframe that helped me, because these things actually aren't true, right? Getting feedback does not mean you're doing something wrong. There's another way to look at it, which is that feedback is a gift that helps you get to where you want to go faster. A second reframe is that, hey, it's not just senior people or tech leads or executives who are supposed to give feedback to earlier career people or ICs or whatnot. Every single one of us has blind spots. And we could benefit from understanding what those blind spots are. I mean, the definition of the word blind spot is like, you just don't see it. It's harder for you to see. And sometimes other people can see things that you don't. And if they make you aware of it, that will help you. That is a gift. And finally, good feedback is not just positive feedback. Another way to look at it is good feedback is any feedback that motivates someone to take an action that they're proud of. So we have to look at what is the outcome of feedback. And so if you tell me something, help me be aware of a blind spot, even if it's critical, and somehow I change my action to, and that change in action makes me more into the kind of person I want to be. You've given me a great gift. You've given me incredible feedback. And so those, these three beliefs are now what, at least for me, is the fuel to get me more excited about getting more feedback and giving more feedback. So again, if there's anything I hope you take away from the practice, it's that beliefs often do motivate our actions. And if you're able to somehow convince yourself of a different story, that maybe the barriers and the hangups that you have, the feedback are not quite right, then I believe that the action will happen more naturally. So these are the three reframes. But even if you're like, okay, I get it, I understand this intellectually, I want to give more feedback, I want to receive more feedback. How do I do that? That's what the rest of this talk is about. So we will look at a very tactical three step process for making feedback seem much more natural, much more easy, and something that ideally you can do even later today. So how to develop A feedback habit in three easy steps. So again, assuming you've got the belief now, you're more convinced, number one is to pick your level. Now, it might seem weird for me to say that there's different levels in which you can give feedback, but let's be honest, there's different levels of what is easy or hard to give. And so if you're going to start a new practice, if you don't give really any feedback at all, I would first say start with the easiest type of feedback to give. Now, if you're already pretty farther along in your feedback journey and you're looking to figure out how to give deeper or harder to give feedback, great, we'll talk about that too. But first, let me introduce, what are these different levels? The first level is what I call task specific feedback after you do something. So right now I'm giving a talk in front of folks. After that happens, I can just ask, hey guys, how did you like the talk? Or what's one thing that I could do better to give this talk in a more compelling way in the future? It's very specific to an action that I have done. Now, if you're a giver of feedback, it is, you know, you attended a talk by somebody, you read a presentation by somebody, you looked at a piece of work, you did a code review, and you can give some feedback on that task. Probably all of you already do this in some shape or form in your day to day and are used to it. And so that's why I often say it's the easiest way to start is you give task specific feedback. The reason it's a little bit easier is it's a little bit less personal. You're not making a judgment about the person. You are merely talking about a thing that they did and what could have made that work or that thing that they did better. So that's what task specific feedback is. That's level one. Level two is behavioral feedback. And behavioral feedback is now we're sort of talking about patterns of behavior. So the first time you hear me give a talk, you might say, oh, Julie, if the content was like this, or maybe if you smiled more or, you know, you gave more time for Q and A. Very helpful. Give me specific feedback on tasks. If you watch seven of my talks and you realize that, Julie, you always say, and you have too many ahs and you talk too fast, that is starting to become a pattern of behavior that I, that I do. And now you are making me aware of a pattern of behavior that I might not be aware of. Right. That would be behavioral feedback. So behavioral feedback, another way to think about it is task specific, is focused on the action or the task. Behavioral feedback is getting to be more focused on the person and their, their pattern of behavior. And the third level is 360 feedback. This is a little bit more, just an intense, more intense version of behavioral feedback. So again, many companies that you're part of may already have this as a system. Every six months or every one year you get a whole round of feedback from everyone you work with and you try and absorb it and ingest it or you go and you know, give like as many dimensions of feedback as possible to the people that you work with. So it's just sort of a more intense version of like getting a 360 view of somebody or trying to give that to somebody else. Right. So again, usually takes more time, takes a little bit more mental energy. This is how I kind of think about the, the different, how much energy or how, how challenging or easy it is. So if you don't do any, you don't, it's not a habit for you. Great. Start with task specific feedback. Just see if you can incorporate a little bit more of that into your day to day. So after a meeting, after a piece of work, can you give a little bit of input that might help that person? Right, so that's the first one is pick your level of feedback and understand that there's, you know, you don't have to go do everything all at once. You just start and you can work your way up. The second thing is to pick the thing you're going to say, or in other words, pick a script, pick a template and over time, of course you can make this your own. You don't have to adopt any of these. But if you don't have a habit of feedback, then you know what, there are scripts, there are templates that you can borrow and they're fairly effective. And you can take these and over time you can make them your own. You can change the exact wording, you can change the sentiment, you can invent new ways of asking for feedback. But if you don't have anything and you're just like, how do I do it? Here's a couple that you can adapt and borrow. The first thing for task specific, often it's very easy to first focus on, okay, what worked well, what was good, what should I do more of? That's something you can ask. Hey, I gave this presentation, hopefully you will all give me some feedback at the end of it what's something that worked well with this presentation? And then look for areas of improvement. What would have made this stronger? So what I like about this particular framing is you're just asking for one thing. Sure, the person might have seven things, but you're trying to make it light for them. Right? So just pick one thing. What's the first thing that comes to mind often that makes it so it's like what's, you know every single idea you have from my talk. No, you don't. I don't want you to sit there and think for 30 minutes because that's kind of a very big ask. So what's one thing that worked well? What's one thing that would have made this stronger? What's the first thing that comes to mind? That's probably my favorite way of asking for very, very lightweight task specific feedback with behavioral feedback. Again, you will want to first ask this of somebody who has seen you in action. This could be somebody that you've collaborated with closely, worked on projects together, a teammate, a manager. What's something I do well that you think I should do more of? What I like about that particular framing is that it still creates an opportunity for making me aware. So maybe, you know, maybe you already know what you're good at and what you're strong at, but you're giving a person some a chance to identify something that think, you know, there's an opportunity for you to do more of that. And maybe you don't know that. Maybe you're not, you know, you're not aware that there are opportunities to do more of what you do well. So I like that framing because it does open it up to ideas in that, hey, yeah, maybe I, maybe you see a colleague and they do a really good job of making other people feel welcome. And one idea you have for them is, well, they do that really well. Perhaps they should do more of that. Maybe they should spend more time with other teams. Maybe they should take on an intern this summer, whatever it is. Right. So what's something I do well, you know, think I should do more of is a good way to both hear feedback about your strengths as well as look for opportunities to expand upon those strengths. On the flip side, what's a behavior or pattern that you think holds feedback? So now you're asking this other person to help you be aware of again, a blind spot that may not be serving you, that that's getting in the way of you being the best or most effective version that you want to be. And then finally, if you're not sure if it's just, it's going to be so weird for you to ask somebody for feedback at all. I always say, okay, then first have the meta conversation first establish that, hey, do both of us want to or agree to give feedback to one another? So, so just sometimes saying that like you're like, you know, because sometimes people tell me, oh, well, I'd love to, but it would be so weird. I'm really worried that if I start asking or if I give feedback, they're not going to take it well. Great, have the meta conversation. What's the best way for us to share feedback with one another? Just have at it, you know, and then hear what the other person says and then start a conversation and then get to a sense of, okay, great, we're going to give feedback to each other. At the end of the project, we're going to try and have a meeting every week and then we're going to share whatever we think is going well or not well. And often you can use this to suss out what makes somebody comfortable. What's a way of getting them to again, not feel like feedback is this weird, tense and totally out of the blue thing, right? So if you're worried about that, have the meta conversation first, then it makes it easy for you to have an in to give or receive task specific or behavioral feedback. Now what about giving feedback? This is the template I like the best, which is when you did X thing, I felt Y because of Z. I think this works if you're giving both feedback that feels positive. You know, when you gave that presentation, I felt it was so easy to follow because whatever is the reason that they. Right. So it's, it is, you can use it for that or you can use it for feedback where it could be more critical. Now when you said that line, I felt like you were minimizing my contributions because la da da da da. So it's a really great template because it leads with what is the action, right? What's the impetus? What did you really feel and why did you feel that? And it helps somebody understand where you're coming from and it still of course, centers it on your perspective. And again, all of us feel what we feel, right? There's no right or wrong to the feeling. But this gives it a little bit of structure so that it can be shared in a way that feels honest and that gives a little bit of that contest, optionally. And you can also add this, you might consider doing abc. So when you did that, now when you Gave that. When you shared that framework, I felt, wow, it's so easy to understand. It was so useful because it broke things down really well. You might consider doing more of that with this other problem or this other problem, right. And then does that resonate with you? So then you add in with like a chance for the other person to share their perspective. I like the word resonate because it's not necessarily an agreement. It's just, do you see where I'm coming from? You might not agree with what I'm saying, but do you see where I'm coming from is what we're trying to get at. And it gives again, an opening to the other person to then share their perspective. So this is again, a useful template. Of course you can tweak it to what works for you. But if you're looking for a place to get started, try this. So you might say, okay, but Julie, this is great and all, but it is really, really difficult to give hard feedback. What if I'm trying to tell someone that I just think they're bad at their job? How do I do that? So I will tell you that I have used this template many, many times to give even very, very difficult or. Or what seems like critical feedback. But there is a catch to how you give what you would be. Maybe, maybe you worry that it's too critical or it's. You're saying something super negative. You're worried about what that person will feel if you give them feedback in this manner. So what should you do? And so here, let's take a step back. I think these are the three most important things to. First, ask yourself if you are going to think about whether do you want to give hard feedback. The first is the most important, which is you need to be really honest with yourself about what is your intention for giving this critical feedback. I'll be very honest. There have been times where I've wanted to tell someone that they were a jerk or they were doing something wrong. And the main reason is because I was mad at them and I wanted to tell them so. And if that's my reason, I'm doing it for me. I'm doing it because I want to be right. I'm doing it because I think it's unfair that I didn't get to express my. My, my voice or my opinion. And so there's this feeling of like, it's kind of for me, it's not for them. And if that is how I go into it, giving the feedback, this has happened enough times and it just doesn't go well. It doesn't go well because they can tell that I'm doing it for me, I'm not doing it for them. And so what happens is they put up that wall, they get defensive, and now we're just, like, throwing rocks at each other. So the most important thing is you got to make sure that you can be honest about what is your intent in giving the feedback. And it's good. You know, we all get mad, we all get irritated. We all, you know, we all say things that we don't mean. It happens. But if you can, over time take that pause and say, why am I saying this? What's my purpose? And you realize over time it's not for them. You're not thinking about them. You're not thinking about. I'm trying to help them. You're thinking, I need to get something off my chest, I want to feel better, I want to, etc. Just don't give it. It's not the right time. You're not in the right mindset. But let's say you do check your intention. You're like, oh, like, I kind of don't want to give it because I'm so scared and nervous. But, like, I kind of think they need to hear it because it's going to help them. And like, you know, what should I do? That is generally because you're thinking about them. You're like, they kind of need to hear it. It's going to help them. That is the intent is more about them. Move forward, do it even if it's hard. You're now thinking about, like, doing this because you want to help them. You're giving them a gift. So go, Go and proceed. So if your intention is in the right place, then the second tip that I have is be really honest about how you feel about giving the feedback. So, again, this is another way to diffuse, right? So let's say I'm, you know, I have this colleague. I love my colleague. I think they're great, but they do this thing and it. I think it's holding them back and it's making it harder for the team. It's hard making it harder for me. And I'm. But I'm nervous because I'm not sure they're going to take it well. The first thing I could say is sit them down and say, look, I'm really nervous. I'm really, like, I thought about whether or not I should say this. And, like, I debated back and forth and, like, I'm really nervous saying this. But I really feel like I gotta say it. Just saying that just being honest about and being vulnerable already, I think sets a tone where the person is going to be more receptive because they know it's not easy for you. You're leading with that initial, like, openness and rawness of how you feel, and it makes it much easier for them to be receptive. So if you are honest and nervous or whatever, don't just like, get in there and like, say the script. Just sometimes it's okay to just actually tell them how you really feel and then go into our template and say this thing. When you did that, I felt what? And then ask them, does that resonate with you? Which is inviting their perspective. Does that resonate with you? Am I getting it wrong? What do you think about that? And listen to what they have to say. I think this is so, so powerful because when it's done well, when it's done with the right intent, when it's done with that transparency and vulnerability, honesty, and when it's done in that collaborative manner, this type of thing can actually lead to the strongest relationships. Right? The toughest feedback can lead to the strongest relationships over time. And then we get a lot. We feel a lot more connected to the people. We. The tension can resolve, you know, and even if it doesn't, even if, like, we don't agree on it, the fact that we were able to say that to each other builds and strengthens relationships, which builds trust and which again, goes back to like, it helps us have just a much better working relationship with everyone. And coming into work every day becomes more fun. Okay, last point here. And then we'll have a few minutes for Q and A. Number three is make feedback a habit. So I invite you to ask yourself to just make a little commitment around feedback. How do you want to give? How do you want to receive? Right? So I want to give feedback maybe every. Whatever time interval, right? Maybe it's every day, maybe it's every week. I personally think every day. Even though it sounds like a lot crazily enough, it's not. If you think about the task specific feedback, again, it's not all. Doesn't all have to be like behavioral feedback every day? I agree that would be too much. But just the idea of like, hey, if I observed a colleague doing this, if I. And you know, all of us attend, we probably see each other's work, we might be invited to give or give feedback or review, or we attend meetings, at least I know I attend at least a meeting every day. That's an opportunity because who ran that meeting? Perhaps that is a piece of feedback we can give about how we ran that meeting or we can look back over the last month and we think what worked well for our team, what didn't. Right? So it could be task specific, it could be behavioral. But regardless, I think every day giving feedback at least once is not too much. It is extremely reasonable. And when it becomes a practice, you end up actually thinking about almost every interaction. There's an opportunity to give some feedback. But you can also say whenever I feel blah, like whenever I feel really inspired, I'm going to go tell that person, wow, that was really inspiring to me. Whenever I feel demotivated or frustrated, I'm going to go and tell, I'm going to try and figure out how I can release a little bit of that by figuring out how to make it productive into, into feedback. So that's the other. You can either do it on a time horizon or you can do it whenever you, you notice a particular feeling, right? And then similarly, oops, you went, how often do you want to ask for feedback? And here I think with your manager asking for feedback once a month is, or asking for, for all the people that you work closely with, doing it on a monthly cadence is, is I think a really good habit to do. But you can also do it every time you do X. Right? Every time I complete a project, every time, you know, I finish a talk, let me get into the habit of asking for some feedback on that particular task on that particular project. So I invite you to just think about this. I invite you to look at the fact that I somehow put a twice on the second bullet list. Just, just kidding. And, and, and just make a commitment to yourself on how you want to incorporate feedback into your day to day. And I also, I'll say one last thing about this, which is that you want to make sure you're doing both. If you are constantly giving feedback but you never ask for it, it's a little weird. You know, people start to over time wonder if it, if the reason why is because you just think that you're better than everyone else, that you're always giving other people feedback but never somehow asking for it yourself. It's also, I think, sense obstinate. If you're constantly asking for feedback but you're not giving it ever, then, you know, is it like, what do you think that everyone else is, you know, perfect? Like, you know, or is it just, you know, it's too much effort for you to give that gift to others, even though you're always trying to seek that from others. So make sure it's balanced as well. Right. Don't be like just a giver and not an asker. And don't be like an asker and not a giver. Try and figure out how to keep both of these in balance and, and make feedback a habit. Okay, I will stop there. I think we probably have like a, like two minutes. So if you want to use the Q and A button and throw out a question. There's actually already a bunch of questions. Okay, I'm reading them now. The first one is what's the best way to receive critical and negative feedback? I find it always helps to just whatever is said, just say thank you for giving me for sharing feedback. I know it's probably not easy, so I appreciate feedback. Just, just make that the first thing that comes out of your mouth as a habit because. And then you don't have to agree. Right? Sometimes it takes a while to process the feedback. That's all you. Honestly, all you got to say is like, thank you for that feedback. Let me reflect on this and, and you know, come back to you with either more clarifying questions or follow ups. So it can be very emotional to get critical feedback. So you don't have to process it all. Don't have to feel like you have to defend yourself. Just thank them for the feedback. Even if your first instinct is like, whoa, this is totally crazy, I don't agree with this at all. Just thank them for giving you the feedback and just tell them you're going to spend a little time to process it and you'll get back to them if you don't. And that's, that's all you got to do. Get yourself out of that zone. Let yourself have time to, you know, get back into a calmer state rather than reacting and then sit with it. Then there might be things, and by the way, I think it is totally valid for someone to give you feedback and you don't agree with it and you don't maybe understand. I don't where it's coming from. Just don't react in the moment. Right. So thank them, process it. Okay, so then two things might happen. First, you, you don't really understand it's coming from. Great. Go back to them and ask more clarifying questions. And your key goal is just, you're trying to understand that perspective. Where is it coming from? Can you give me some examples? Why did it make you feel this way when that happened? Right. So ask for clarity. So that's option one. Number two is you thought about it and you agree with some of it. You don't agree with some of it, but you want to take some action. It's great to then call a meeting again, get back and talk to that person and, and say, hey, this is what I'm thinking could happen. This is what I resonate with. This part I don't resonate with. Don't resonate with. But I want to work with you to figure out how we can turn this into action that works for both of us. So turn it into kind of like a collaborative exercise. And that can also be very trust building. Okay, I'll take one more question. How do you distinguish between feedback and a warning from your manager? Well, I go back to the definition of feedback is often somebody makes us aware of something and ideally when we become aware of it, we will start to take actions that move us towards a direction that we ultimately feel proud of. That is what I consider good feedback to be. You know, I don't know exactly what's meant by like a warning from your manager, but I imagine that often what managers might, you know, maybe you're not, maybe your manager has some concerns and maybe it's not expressed in a way where it could be actionable for you, in which case, go in, ask for more clarifications. I want to tell your man, I want to make this actionable. I want to figure out how it can turn this into something that'll help. But I need your help. Can you help me understand X, Y and Z or can you suggest actions that might help me be able to do that? Right. So keep in mind your manager, generally it's not true obviously with every single manager. Well, but like for the most part, your gener, your manager, is incentivized for you to be able to be happy, productive and, and doing well in your day to day. So if they give you something that seems critical, often it is, you can see it as an opportunity to be like, okay, let me understand this and let me figure out how this will help me move towards again the person that I want to be. I will take. Oh, I think I said that. That was like the last question. All right, I will pause there. We're already two minutes past the half hour. Thank you all for tuning in. I will ask you for any feedback that you think what either what resonated with you here or what you think could have one tip that you have for me to help me improve in giving a workshop like this in the future. And just feeling a lot of gratitude for all of you to spend a portion of your day with me. Thanks so much. Actually, I'll put up one more slide which is you can find me on Twitter LinkedIn. I write a blog called the Looking Glass on Substack, so that's there. I wrote a book so if you are thinking about management, you can check out my book, the Making of a Manager. Thank you all and have a wonderful rest of your day. I hope there's a lot of other great things that are in store for you and me through the rest of our day. Bye everyone.