Grass Grazed on Race, Growing up Differently and Starting a Farm

I want to start out with what you two wanted to be when you grew up, when you were a child.

Yeah, sure.

Oh, ladies first.

Okay, man. It's always safe.

I mean, I don't think I really knew that the answer to that question growing up. I had the nickname of being Mama Paige as a kid. I'm one of 14, number 6 in between two sets of twins. So I'm the middle child. And we're not Catholic. And no offense if anybody is Catholic. We weren't Catholic. My dad was a—

we weren't Catholic.

I mean, cuz that was, that was all, that was always like the next question. People would be like, so are you Catholic? Are you Mormon? We're like, what? And we're like, no, we're just, we're Christians, you know. They just like to have babies.

They just have a lot of kids. Yeah.

Yeah.

Um, but yeah, no, I don't, I don't think I really had like a, when I grow up I'm gonna be this. I just knew that, um, I kind of just wanted to do something and growing up, that kind of translated into like when I went into high school, like, I mean, I did a lot of things. I was like president of my class, was homecoming queen, like, so everyone kind of thought like, you're going to do great things. But at graduation, I was like, I don't really know if I want to go to college, guys. Like, I think I'm going to go to AmeriCorps. And my parents were so supportive. They were like, if that's what you want to do, that's fine. I don't— they never And I got irritated with my mom once because she was like, I never really worried about you. Like, I just, whatever you want to do, it's fine. If you want to go to college, you want to go to college. Like, you just always kind of had a plan. And so, yeah, like, I don't, I didn't really have aspirations of what that would look like. I mean, I, I did get like a CNA certification in high school and I worked and thought I was going to be a nurse and I went to this expensive private school and then they that didn't work out because I sucked at organic chem and it just, you know, but you learn.

So I don't know if I answered that. What's AmeriCorps?

AmeriCorps is, it's kind of like the Peace Corps, but it's local. So it's like within the United States and you basically go like you're assigned to a certain like specific area and you have an assignment. And so that assignment can be like growing potatoes or, and then like helping people within the local community to I don't know, with like a school program.

Parks and Rec. Yeah, like Parks and Rec projects and stuff like that.

Just volunteer. It's volunteer.

They called you Mama Paige.

They did. They called me Mama Paige.

And did you think that you were going to be a mama and just— oh yeah, focus on that?

I mean, I knew, I knew that I wanted to be a stay-at-home mom. I mean, I just knew that I wanted to have a family, and I never looked at being a stay-at-home mom as like a negative thing. Yeah, like I just, I really always looked at that as Um, a blessing really, because to be able to have kids and to be able to just like foster them is just, yeah. I, I learned that from my mom and, um, yeah, I thought it was a really cool thing.

Your mom was a stay-at-home mom, I'm assuming.

She was. Uh, I mean, she did a lot of things. Yeah.

Like she, she's not gonna be able to go to the office every day.

Well, I mean, she, she tried, like she, oh yeah. So she, she has her degree in Spanish and, um, Like, so she would teach and, you know, it was just kind of like a mixture of things. Like she, when my, my youngest brother was a baby, she was like, I'm gonna finish my degree. Cause she didn't finish. So she finished with 14 kids. She finished her degree. Wow. And then she was like, okay, so I'm gonna like figure out this whole teaching thing. And she just, nothing ever really stopped her. Like if she was determined to do something, she, you know, she did it. So I kind of got that from her.

I was going to say, I see that. I see that trend in you.

So why college?

Why college?

If you wanted to be a mom, why college?

Well, I mean, I went to college because I felt like, because I wanted to pursue nursing at the time.

Okay.

So I was very intentional with that. Like, I mean, that's a whole story in itself. I, I called the college that I thought I wanted to go to. My parents wanted us to go to Christian school for the first 2 years. So like, I don't care where you go, but like just 2 years, give me a Christian university. So, um, so I picked one, and I remember like calling the school and being like, hey, I'm thinking about this school. And the counselor was like, this is— this isn't really how this works. Like normally, like, we have, you know, like— no, no, not at all. Like, but we normally have like, you know, Sessions, and you would come and show interest, and then we would pursue you as a guidance counselor. And I was like, well, you know, I'm kind of on the fence. I don't even really know if I want to go to school, so I just want to know if this is like an option. And I ended up going to this like private Christian school sight unseen, which was very like strange because, you know, normally you go through the whole like I visit with my parents and blah blah blah. But I was like, no, we're good. And the counselor— I really do, I really do give credit to my counselor, cuz we're— I still keep in touch with him and his family to this day. But he, um, he, he was driving through like Atlanta and stopped. I'm from Augusta, Georgia, so he like passed through and stopped at Augusta, and he was like, hey, I'm gonna be in Augusta, you know, you wanna like grab ice cream? Like me and my wife are gonna be passing through here. And I was like, yeah, I can drop by like after work. And, um, and that kind of really was like, okay, yeah, this is good. It was in Nashville. Lipscomb University, where I went. And I was like, this is okay, I could do this. Like, I can meet people and, you know, like, it could be fun. So I did it. How long did you stay? I stayed for— I stayed for the 2 years.

Okay.

And then I left, and then I, I transferred to like— I went to then like 3 or 4 different schools. I went to Georgia Southern, I went to Augusta State, I went to a bunch of different schools, and then I didn't finish. Because it was like, it was just so exhausting. And by that point it was exhausting. It was. And I was like, I don't, what am I doing this for? And, and I really, I really had the confidence in, and not to sound prideful in this, but just if I wanna do something, like I can do it and I don't really need someone to tell me what I can or can't do. And I saw that early on, like people, I would meet people and they would be like, I wanna hire you. I just wanna hire you. Because I think you would be great with this. Like, I, I got a job at school, at the private school, um, or the Christian school, working in admissions, like, on the spot. Like, the first week they had, like, this kind of a, um, it's like a welcome week. And the head of the admissions was like— I just had a conversation with him, and he was like, I— do you have a job? Because I, I really want to hire you. Like, I think you'd be great.

Wow.

And I was like, okay. A new job.

That's a good attitude. When you said that about—

oh, you were real quick to say, oh yeah, but we're not Catholic.

I met a guy just recently who comes from a big family, and they would get the same thing. Well, are you Catholic? And the dad would say, no, we're passionate Protestants. Would you put— you've already said you're Christian, so maybe it's Protestant.

But did—

would you put that your family was also passionate?

Oh no, we didn't use that.

Zealous?

We didn't use those adjectives. No, it was just kind of—

well, were you just like Sunday Christians? Christmas Christians?

Well, no.

Or was it like a really meaningful thing? My dad was a preacher.

Yeah.

So my dad was a preacher.

I'm a preacher's kid.

I'm a preacher's kid.

And okay.

Yeah.

So this was a massive part of your life is what I'm getting at here.

Yeah, they're huge.

Their life was centered around it.

Yeah. In Augusta, Georgia.

Yeah.

No, no, no.

You said it was centered around it. Is it still centered around it?

It still is. Yeah, very much so.

I mean, it was when you were a child. You're obviously not living in your parents' home anymore.

Yeah, I guess. But for your parents, they're still going strong.

Absolutely. My dad's not preaching anymore, but I mean, they're still very active in the church. And I would say that hands down, I learned I mean, I, so there's this term that a college professor taught me called your parents are your skin gods. So, and by that it's like when you are growing up and you're kind of trying to figure out the world and seeing what things look like, the first place that you see that emulated is through your parents. And so that kind of become, you, you, you come to this point of like tension when you grow up and when you mature and it's like, well, Do I want to continue to follow the same, like, you know, track that my parents did or, you know, or not? And so I'm just really grateful. And I mean, I count that as— I mean, I just have so much gratitude in the fact that I saw what it looked like to model the Christian faith and not just, you know, church on Sundays, church on Easter. It was like, oh, we can't go to church because there's a storm. We're going to have a family devotional. Oh, like, you know, it was a part of my everything. Like, everything.

I'm going to dig into that. But first, Derek, what did you want to be when you were a kid? When you were 10 years old?

Yeah, 10 years old.

10-year-old Derek.

10-year-old Derek. That was—

I was just going to say, first of all, when did you—

How old was he when you met him? Or when y'all met?

15.

Okay.

16. 16.

Yeah, you're 16.

Yeah, I was 16. Yeah, I was 16 when I met her. 10, at 10 years old, I don't remember. At 10, I don't think I had figured it out yet. Everybody wanted to be lawyers. That was like the thing. And at one part of the year, it was, at one part of the year, it was 10. It depends on, you know, I think Michael Jordan was still big during that time. So I wasn't very good at basketball, but I could play and I had a basketball goal at my house. So it was like, then I have the, you know, a better chance than everybody else because I had a basketball goal and they had just, they had just the, the movable, the mobile ones had just come out. So, and I had one. So I wanted to be a basketball player at that time. Um, that didn't last very long. Uh, about high school, my first year of high school, I attended a, um, attended this Future Leaders of America or something like that. It was like this conference and I heard this guy come and I'd never seen a man in a suit before except for at a funeral. So this man in a suit at lunchtime, it's weird. I grew up in Mississippi. Mississippi, it's not country. It's not city either. It's bigger than Nashville, but it's not as I would— well, yeah, it's bigger than Nashville. Um, I grew up there and, you know, just, it was kind of weird. People, you, you either want to be a basketball player, a rapper, or you wanted to do— you want to be a street pharmacist. That was like the thing. That's the neighborhood that I grew up in. Um, and my sister was, um, my sister was just about to go to medical school And she was like, you should go to this conference. You're going to hear this dude speak. He's going to talk about this stuff. You should just go. It was at her college. And I go and this guy, you know, meet this guy. He was like, hey, you know, have you ever heard of stocks and stuff like this? I was like, no, I've never heard this before in my life. Like, what is this? And sure enough, I heard it. I was like, I want to be a stockbroker. And that's what I wanted to be until I was, until I started, until I got to algebra. And I was like, well, maybe numbers aren't—

I like math, but I like math when I'm counting money, but I don't like it otherwise.

This other stuff that y'all are talking about, this doesn't— like, why? I don't want to do numbers just for the sake of arithmetic. I don't want to do that. I want to do it based on something specific. And they were like, well, it doesn't work like that. You got to learn the fundamentals. I was like, well, I don't know if I want to be a stockbroker. But that was the thing for a while. Yeah.

You guys both, you see what's happened here? You both, at some point, you seem to be really good at self-analyzing and saying, hey, wait a minute.

Yeah.

I'm in this math class. I don't want to be a stockbroker if that's what it's going to take. You were real with yourself.

Yeah.

A lot of times people shove that negative off to the side and get into a denial.

Yeah.

It looks like he figured it out before you did though.

You were in college. I knew right away you were in college and you, and you asked that. Yeah, no, my— so I— college wasn't really something that I was even considering, um, at the time. I knew because my sister was just— my sister was always in school, like she was always studying, always doing something different. And, um, and it just— to me it just seemed exhausting, like all the time she's studying for the MCATs and she's like 6 months she's in these books and that's all that she's doing with my, with my niece and trying to manage a house. And I was just like, that's crazy. I don't want to do that. School isn't fun to me. I don't necessarily like going and I wasn't very good at spelling. And I told my teacher, I was like, how long do I have to take spelling tests? And they were like, well, it depends on the school. And I was like, well, if spelling tests exist in order for me to graduate, I'm probably not going to graduate because I don't like spelling. It wasn't my thing. They're like, you're going to be okay. But no, my sister, like she spent so much time and then I was just like, I'm just not very interested. I like to work. I was thinking about this the other day when I was trying to figure out where did this entrepreneur like spirit come alive in me. And a lot of my granddad, my granddad worked in a coal factory, but on the side he also did, he was a junk man. So he collected junk like the Sandman. I don't know if you ever heard of the Sandman. Anyway, it's just, I think it's an old show. Sanford and Son. Oh, yes. I say Sandman, not Sanford and Son. Sanford and Son.

You ever heard that one?

That was a real thing.

I've never seen Sanford and Son. That's like the classic.

No, I have seen it.

Oh, yeah. That was my granddad. So he had chickens and stuff. Like, he still had like farm animals at the house. And, you know, like he did all of these things just like on Saturdays we would go there. And he would have a new project, you know, I'm going to collect this tin. I'm going to make something out of it. He was just always doing something outside of his, you know, 9 to 5. Exactly. Um, everything else on the side was extra. 9 to 5 was money for mama. And then everything else you could do, you could play with it. It was play money. Uh, and sure enough, I saw that and I was like, man, like, that's cool. Like, I want to be able to build something. And he was always building things. Around 9th grade, my family had a few small businesses and I started getting involved with them. They're like, hey, what do you want to do? I was like, hey, I want to wash cars. And it was the first time I ever earned money. It was like a Saturday and Saturday, my mom was like, well, you can go and do this. You go get all your supplies and you're good at washing cars. You like cleaning things. You're good at that. You know, put up a sign. And we were busy all day long. And I was like, I don't want to go to school next week. I want to do this. Oh, like, this is what I want to do. And sure, like, that didn't— my sister was like, no, you're going to school. You're going to school.

How old again were you at this point?

I was probably 13.

13.

Yeah.

Okay.

Did you express that to your mom?

I don't want to go to school.

What'd she say?

My mom wasn't— my mom was like, well, I expressed to my sister and I expressed to my sister because my sister is like 12 years older than I am. And it's just me and her. So she's like— my mom worked a lot, so it was like me and my sister a lot of the time. And I told my sister, like, I want to do this. And my sister was like, well, you know, you can do this, but it has to be when you're not in school. So if you want to come over, you know, after school, you can come over after school, but you're going to school. Like, you still got to do those things. Uh, she was very much the, um, um, the— she was my— my mom worked a lot, so my sister there was a separation between— my mom was just a worker. She just worked. And if you want to go to school, you go to school. As long as you— if you know how to work, I'm okay with you working as long as you're doing something. But my sister was like, no, you're going to do both. You're going to get education. And if you want to work, you can work. So yeah, we did that for some time. And yeah, and that's— so it kind of flip-flopped back and forth for a while. And I learned a lot of trades during those, during my teenage years. So in high school, when Paige was trying to figure out all this stuff, I was still just trying to get through high school. I was just trying to graduate. I was working high school. I got a, I had to go and get a permit from the Secretary of State, which is like a permit saying that you can work when you're 15. That permit thing.

Yeah.

And I had to get approval from the school and I was like, why do I have to go to the school to get permission to work? Cause I knew the school was going to be like, no, your grades are horrible. You don't need to work. But they did. And one of the guidance counselors was like, I think you— I think this is a good thing for you. I really do. If you want to work.

What was her name?

The guidance counselor? Mr. Lennox.

Oh, they said Miss. There's Mr. Lennox and Miss Santiago.

Yeah.

Okay, so you guys were the same. So you grew up in Mississippi then? Oh, no, no, no.

I grew up in Georgia.

I moved to Georgia.

Okay, you moved to Georgia. And that's where you met her. Because I'm like thinking, I'm like, I I know she lived in Mississippi.

Yeah, yeah, no, I moved to— my sister got married and her husband is in the Navy, and so he got— he was stationed there. And, uh, yeah, so she moved and I was in Mississippi at the time, and, you know, she was like, I'm, you know, I'm gonna be moving. And I was like, well, you know, I'm going. Like, there's no way my sister's gonna leave without me, you know. She's my older sister, but I'm her big brother. Um, Sure enough, she moved and my mom was like, I think you should go with your sister. And I moved and lived with my sister.

So you guys still close?

Me and my sister? Oh, yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah. That's—

He kind of looked at me like, you crazy.

Yeah. Yeah. That's my sister.

Is it like that? Yeah.

Yeah.

Is she a doctor?

She is not. She's a scientist.

Scientist.

Yeah. Okay.

What did your parents want y'all to be when you grew up?

I don't think my parents had any real like hard things for me. My dad really was about me going to college though. Like, so it was just like, you just need to get your degree. And I remember looking at my dad and like, at this point, I mean, because I had, I had gotten jobs like working for really like great companies. And I was like, why do you think that I need this? I'm making like a full-on salary. Like, I don't actually don't need to go to college. I was like, everything that I've learned, it's You know, I learned it and I don't know if it, if it makes sense to continue to have debt. Just for the sake of, why would he say, just for the sake of having it? What would he say when you said, well, he was just like, well, you just never know when you're gonna need it. And you know, but that's my, my dad, he's an engineer, he's an electrical engineer. So it's like that, you know, and I think, and also just that was his, his mom was a nurse, you know, like he, his upbringing and even like with his siblings, it was very much like, You've got to get your degree.

There's like a stigma, I think, with their generation.

Absolutely.

That like you go to college.

This is what you do.

Yeah, because I was the same way. I didn't want to go to college. And like, it happened during a reunion that it came out that I didn't want to go. Everybody sat me down and let me know that I need to go to college.

There's something wrong with you.

I was like, okay, I guess I'm going to college.

Are you using your college degree?

That's what everyone always says.

Did you get a college degree?

No, I didn't. It's still active. We're still chugging away at it. Are you really? You're still going at it? Not since we've been farming. I've kind of left it alone. But yes. Left it alone. Yeah, I had to. I was just doing it for the sake of, you know, just—

To have the piece of paper.

I did. That's why.

I have to say there is something to having a degree.

Sure.

Because when you fill out things, it's like your level of education.

Right.

And you can check that off. And there is— and not that it's saying it's right, but there is like when somebody looks at that, they're like, oh, they did that.

But is it worth it? That moment?

Yeah, I don't think so.

I mean, but I've always been optimistic in that because I've said, well, but if you look at my experience based on our resume, it would—

Yeah.

Supersede wherever I went.

Yeah, because anybody can go and sit in a classroom and check boxes.

You know what I mean?

Like, it's—

yeah, I told Paige, the, um, the— I get it. And while we're talking, as we're like trying to mentor the younger, uh, our younger generation as they're coming up, whenever we're like, hey, you know, I, I'm not against college. I think college is for people that know what they— my sister knew what she wanted to be, and guess what? You can't do this without this. And that's how I need to go. Like, if that's what you really want and she knew I want to be a doctor, and then she learned that she, she did not want to be a doctor. She was like, well, scientist, that's— it's a— it's actually what I want to do, research and development. Like, that's what I want to do. Um, and that's what, that's what she wanted to do. But we have friends that, hey, I know that I want to be a doctor. Then you need— maybe you need to go to college. That's what you need to do.

But you can't do it any other way.

Yeah, well, we filled out a we were going to be foster parents, or we ended up being foster parents. They want to know the highest level of your education. And that was a moment where I was like, University of North Carolina.

Yeah.

Asheville.

I might have left out the Asheville part. Who knows?

Kind of UNC. You know, how much did it help?

It helped.

I mean, I had that sense of— I don't think it helped.

No, to be a foster parent, you could be a foster parent without having a college education. Like, I don't think it helped.

The problem is 18-year-olds don't know what they want to do.

Exactly.

Isn't that the problem?

24-year-olds don't know. Yeah.

So they, then they, yeah, then they go into college and then they're going off to college, you know, and they're going away from Mom and dad.

Yeah.

Well, sure, they're legal adults, but are they ready?

No.

There are some people who are getting into major debt.

Eric says no. Some, I believe some are. Some know. Paige knew, right?

I had an idea, but it was because I, you know, there's two tracks you can take in high school. You can do college prep or tech prep. And I did both of them.

Obviously I didn't.

But I did both.

That was the only way I was going to graduate. They were like, you have to do tech prep. You can't do the other side. But here's the thing I tell them. Well, they said that, and all the reason why they said is because I couldn't pass a foreign language. Well, now I speak a foreign language. So I was like, so it wasn't— it was just a matter of perspective and what I wanted at the time. I didn't feel like it was beneficial to me. So hey, it was more beneficial for me to work, and so I chose, you know, college prep. It was— I mean, tech prep, because hey, I want to work on my hands.

Wait, what language do you speak?

Spanish.

Can you show off for us a little bit?

See?

Okay, uh, let's say, where are you from?

Um, um, so, um, so, uh, uh, I'm trying to think. North Carolina. And, uh, so, uh, sure, Spanish. I'm trying to say Fayetteville because that's what I said for so long. So, uh, uh, Carolina del Norte.

And what did you like to play with Carolina What did you like to play when you were a child?

Cuando era niño, yo—

He's better at reading it and translating.

Have you ever had a moment—

That's what he had to do for his job.

Okay.

Yeah. In the military.

Okay.

So have you ever had a moment where people are speaking Spanish and they assume you have no idea what they're saying? And it'd be an interesting moment.

Yeah. Yeah.

But you want to tell me about it?

Sure. Or you maybe had an advantage.

They didn't think you could.

So it's funny because they're talking bad about you or somebody else.

Yeah, that was his job.

But it was his job. My job was to know not enough to— Oh, yeah, it was enough to know, to hear and understand what people around you are saying.

What? He didn't necessarily have to speak it like—

So yeah, the speaking, the speaking was trying to get a cab or try to get to the airport.

The hearing, like, I could understand what you were saying, but I couldn't—

I couldn't say that back. So your job, yeah, yeah, was to look American, look unable to speak Spanish, yes, but to pick up on some things.

Yeah, but it was strategic because he blended in with the cult, like, with the community.

So like, this is—

they would assign a language, which you can tell them I'm— probably shouldn't say that, but he, they, he would, he would be assigned a language, like, all the guys in the course, like, based on their profile.

So like, okay, so it's less likely that a Black person would speak Spanish?

Uh, it's more likely that a Black person—

it's more likely. Yeah, because people think I was Dominican.

Yeah.

Uh, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Very interesting.

So if you're watching— no, uh, the, the, um, um, yo estudié español en Carolina del Norte. Yo trabajé en otro, or mucho diferente países en Sudamérica. Me trabajé fue asuntos civiles. Asuntos civiles es una especialidad en fuerzas especiales, the special forces. Yeah, yeah.

You studied, you studied in North Carolina. And you worked in Special Forces in South America.

I cannot speak it, but yeah.

Do you speak it to your kids then?

So when they're a little, not really. Her mom is like teaching them. So I'll like kind of test them on, yeah.

Can you look back on your childhood times, growing up times, and think of a defining struggle? Does anything come to your mind? For me, it would be my parents' divorce.

I, my sister passed away. That was a, that was a struggle. My oldest sister, that happened when I was in high school. Um, I mean, I think, yeah, just losing, yeah, any loved one is really tough and that's just a hard thing to kind of process and deal with.

And did it mess your parents up? I mean, that's like, parents.

How old were you and how old was she?

So I was 15 and she was 21. Okay. And, um, yeah, like, I— my dad— you want to say I'm— I was a PK. My dad was preaching like full-time. Well, not full-time, because he was, he was an engineer, so really was always part-time. But, um, he stopped preaching like after that happened and just, you know, like, our, our family just really needed a lot of time to just kind of get our bearings. And I think it's still hard even now for them. And, you know, I think often like, what would it be like if I like had my, you know, my oldest sister still? Like, it's kind of one of those things that you, you know, that doesn't ever really leave you. That—

Do you mind talking about this?

No, it's okay.

So she would be— how old are you now?

I'm 33. Yes, 33.

And she would be 35, 39.

Yeah, yeah, she would have been almost 40. Yeah.

Were you close?

Like, I mean, she was my—

it was close.

She was my big sister, so it was more like me getting in trouble for trying to try on her clothes and stuff like that.

Yeah.

Um, and she was in college, you know, when she passed, so it was like I knew her, but I didn't have like a really close relationship with her, um, just because of the age difference.

Mm-hmm.

But, you know, now that I'm like older with kids, it's like, I just wonder, you know, what would that have been like? And I, I think that's just one of those things when, at least for me, when the older that I've become, I'm closer with my siblings than when I was younger. So like the people that I, call or that I wanna talk to when I'm in the car or whatever, it's my, you know, it's my family. And, um, you know, I don't, I think that's something you kind of figure out over time cuz you don't, I don't know when you're, and I never like hated my siblings or anything like that. Like we hung out.

I know, but they're strafing.

But yeah, but it's just like, well, you got your friends and I got my friends. Mm-hmm. But like now, you know, I tell my kids this now, like, These are your friends. Be nice to them because they will be your friends.

Homeschool, right?

We do homeschool.

So look around, these are your classmates.

I know, right?

I'm the one you got most in common with. I'll be a buddy.

You know, so they have those like word problems, like how many kids in the class like oranges or something. I'm like, well, go ask your siblings. This is your class. Like, but you know, but even like, yeah, you can. But even in that, it's like just getting them to try to understand, like, you know, you, you may not see it now, but when you get older, like, these are going to be your people. Like, they will know you the most. They— you can look at them and they just will understand, you know, hey, this is what it is.

So your family is your people, you would say that?

Yeah, absolutely.

And now you just want to pass that on? Nurture that in your children?

Yeah.

So your parents were successful in this, that family unit. That doesn't happen most of the time.

Yeah. Uh, yeah. Yeah.

They were successful in making the family their people.

Yeah.

So what do you, have you learned from them that now you're doing with your kids so that they'll grow up and they'll be each other's people? I want to know that for my own family. And everybody listening who did, whose family isn't their people.

Yeah.

How do we stop that cycle?

Yeah. Yeah. That's a, that's a deep question.

We got time. We got 2 hours and 20 minutes.

I think right behind your head.

Okay.

I, I think when you're trying to develop a sense of, I mean, I think it's pride really. And not, hopefully that's not taken in a negative way, but I think that there is a sense of Um, pride that should come from, like, you're like being proud of like being a part of your family. So my last name used to be Hamilton and everyone knew the Hamiltons. Like we, like if we were outta line, like it was, it was, it didn't happen. Like we were the good kids. We were well-behaved. We were good looking. We were the homecoming kings and queens. I mean, I'm not, I just say like, to succeed. Majority, all of my bro— they were all like, just everyone knew the Hamiltons. Like, we made a name for ourselves, and it wasn't—

that even sounds like a— that's a really nice last name. It sounds like something you'd have to live up to anyway.

Oh, it's a big name. But, you know, and I think— I don't— and I don't think that my parents initially were like, we're gonna just— you're gonna make a name for yourself and you're gonna be— but I think it was a sense of Um, within the home, right? So like within our home, mm-hmm. That was an understanding of like, you know who you are and whose you are and you like, you will not act outside of your name. And so now that like we have kids and we have a family, I think that, um, my hope is that our kids have that same sense of understanding of who they are and whose they are, you know, cuz I think that that then kind of brings in together this union of like, hey, like this is who we are. We're not gonna act outside of our name. Like, so you will then come from a place of like, well, confidence maybe in saying, okay, well I don't really have to, not that you're like disrespectful or anything of like asking permission of things, but you know, just like the sense of like, hey, this is the, this is who I am. This is what I'm called to do. And my family, you know, has taught me this and they've instilled this in me. And I think that gives them confidence to do that in the next, yeah, the next generation to come.

You were careful about using the word proud. You were like, I don't mean it in the negative sense. You were very careful there. But I think if somebody heard you say that you ought to be proud and they're offended, that the message is actually for them. And it's saying, oh, if that offends you, no, it's okay to be proud about something good and to stand for something and have a standard.

Right.

So I think that might even be a signal to whether somebody's on the track to family unity, the way you guys have found it or not.

One of the things that I've noticed is not because we are a new family, we are the Jacksons. One of the things that I think is interesting is their parents. Well, I saw that I saw that unity from the outside.

Okay.

Yeah. So I'd never seen it before. Most people are like, you seen The Cosby? I had never seen The Cosby Show before. Like, I had never seen it before. I was like, I heard of it. I don't want— we didn't watch TV like that. So I never heard of this. So when I met them in school, or when I met Paige, I knew that I don't really— oh, you're that— you're that— you're the Hamilton girl. Like, I don't like—

you're the Hamilton girl.

Yeah, they were the Hamiltons.

And somebody said that. A lot of people said that. Um, I went to a school that was— it was majority white. Um, I think I was one of like maybe 15, um, um, African-American males there. Um, and Paige was— I mean, there might have been a few more girls, but it was a big deal to be at a school like that. And they speak so highly of, you know, I had just come from Mississippi, so where there was only two, you know, white people, and there was one— they were administrators. So to go to Georgia and be like, exactly, it was just like, whoa, like, who are we talking about? I was like, oh, you're— oh, okay, got it. And the people were telling me— there were guys, I know their names to this day, we're still friends. I would say we— if we, we could shake hands, or we were talking about another day. But they would, they would be like— I remember I said, somebody's like, who are you interested in? Because you're not dating anybody, you're not like— you never talk about these girls. And I was like, I got— I'm working, so I don't have time for that. I was— I was working. I was like, I'm, I'm not going to any football games, guys. I'm not doing any of that stuff. I just want to work because I don't have time for it. And, um, and they were like, you don't— have you seen anybody or whatever? And I was like, I was like, we saw you talking to Paige, but that's like— that you could— you're just wasting your time because that's out of your league. So like, they told me, that's how— she's out of your league. And I was like I wasn't interested in her anyway.

But the baddest—

she lived in the neighborhood with us. She lived in my neighborhood. My sister, she met my family. I think she met my sister before me and her really started talking. And my sister's like, that's a really— I met one of the Hamilton kids and Paige, you should try to be friends with her. She could be a good friend for you. And I was like, You know, just, that's my sister. I heard you, I heard you, but you're my sister. I don't want you. I'm good. And sure enough, a couple years go by, and, and then I started, you know, paying more attention to Paige. And, and I started seeing her more. At the time, I just wasn't— I didn't want to be at the school, but I saw her and she was consistent. Like, she would come by the house and she'd be like, hey, you know, she came by the house and introduced herself, unlike the girls at school that were like, at school trying to introduce himself. She came to the house and was like, hey, I'm Paige, you know, what, like trying to be my friend. And I was like, why, you know, why is this girl—

I don't think I was trying to be your friend. I think my brother was selling cookies. That's why I came to your house.

She was trying to be your friend. Yeah.

I wasn't just like going at your house.

I'm like wondering, I'm like, Paige.

My brother was selling. I remember that my brother was selling cookies. So my mom would like bake cookies for him.

And I tried to buy them all.

Derrick, you hang on to your proud stance. Because that's evidently the way to do it.

Yeah, yeah, I, I— she came— she was coming after you, David. She was at that— she's coming after you. Yeah, she, she dropped by the house. I was like, not buying it. Yeah, but I was— I wasn't, you know, I still wasn't paying attention.

But why weren't you paying attention?

Because she was— you were believing your friends? I really did think you believed them. I did. All right, I did. I, I saw it, I heard it at school, and then I started seeing it in— like, I started seeing it. I saw her I never saw her— what I had heard was, you know, I saw them living it out. Like, I started— I knew they had a large family. I was like, oh man, like, okay. I knew that they were Christians or whatever, and I was like, well, we were Christians and, you know, we went to church, and— but they were just— they were different, you know. Mom and dad at home, you know. I was living with my sister and her husband, and, okay, you know, it was just I was just in a different place. Like, then, you know, I saw it. I was just like, well, that's probably— she's probably, she's probably out of my league. And I believe—

out of your league, what do you mean? Like, like, too pretty?

I think maybe too pretty, maybe.

Yeah, well, not different backgrounds, or like morally, morally, it was morally, morally, and And I mean, I was, I was at this time, I was, you know, going through those teenage years as a, as a boy, you know, trying to figure out my way as a man. So at that time, I was going through some stuff. So I was just like, you know, I was not his type.

Let's just put it out there.

By the way, this is an adult show. This is not targeted to kids.

Okay.

Yeah, I was not his type. I was not his type. I was hoodie chapstick girl wearing Converse.

And like, yeah, and I was interested in cheerleaders.

And okay, he was interested in the fast girls who wore high heels and stilettos.

Yeah, they could go, they could go out, that could go out on a Friday night.

You were 16.

Yeah, I was 16. Did you ever—

does it go the other way? Did you ever think he was under your Under Your League. Under Your League.

Honestly, I thought Derek was cute when I saw him. Like, I was like, oh, he's a new guy.

He's kind of cute.

A little trouble.

He's a little trouble with that mustache.

But yeah, he did. He had like, he had a little goatee thing going on. And I was like, well, first of all, like the school that we went to was predominantly white. And so it was very much like if there was a new guy and a black guy was new, everyone the whole school would be like, there's a guy and he's Black.

And were you like the coolest guy at school?

I was, I was the new guy. I was the new guy. And then I became the, who is he?

Yeah, well, see, that's it.

Yeah, because I never, I never came out. Uh, I never—

yeah, so I understand the new kid.

You, you were close a lot.

Oh yeah.

So what do you mean you never came out?

I never, I never came out of my So I, I never came out of the shell. I, I had a group of, uh, friends. I had 3 friends. So I had— I moved to Georgia and I was going to a school, and then the school told me I had to move. They actually— they sent a letter in the mail. It was like, hey, um, don't come back to the school anymore, you're not in this district. And I was like, first of all, who does that? Like, people do this all the time.

It was real.

I was like, like, they sent a letter in the mail because my sister was you're probably gonna have to switch schools. And I was like, I just got here, I love the school that I'm at, I got these 3 friends. And, you know, these, these 3 friends and still friends to this day.

And so how did you end up at a school that wasn't in your district?

We moved. Yeah, because we were living somewhere. Yeah, military, this whole military thing. We were living in a— we were living in a hotel for like 3 months.

Oh, so you were a military—

you were in a district?

Yes.

That is when you first got there, and then you had to— okay, because I'm like thinking How'd you show up at the wrong school?

Yeah, yeah, no, we— so we didn't know exactly which school, but because we were in the military, they were like, you know, pick a school. As long as you drive there, it's, it's okay because you don't have an address. So, uh, and then we moved into the house and then we got an address and they were like, yeah. So we found out, it was like within days. I think somebody told, because it was so fast, it was like 3 or 4 days, the letter was in the mail and they were like, hey, This is your last day. And I was like, I'm going back to school. And I showed up to school and sure enough, they called my sister and was like, hey, today he can't come back tomorrow. He has to go to this school. And that's how I— so I go to school there and I didn't want to be there. And so I never really engaged outside of the, I'm here, this is what I have to do. I'm just here because it's what I have to do. I didn't, I wasn't trying to make friends. I participated in nothing other than the things that I had to do.

So what was your big struggle growing up?

Ooh, big struggle. I was raised— it was so my mom, so we lived through the modernization of the newspaper factory. My mom worked for a newspaper for 20, 25 years, probably longer. All the family members that worked there, she worked on a printing press. Well, when the computer thing came out, when the computer came to life, there was no need for the press. But that's— that was what my mom had done her entire life. So, you know, built her— built our life around that. And sure enough, you know, she struggled. And when she struggled, she got— she became very depressed. And that's when I was in middle school. And around the same time, 9/11 happened, and then my dad got sent to my dad was military as well. And he was, you know, he got called up and when it first happened, so it was just a lot of things fell apart. So my mom was struggling with her job, trying to figure out how to learn the computer and, you know, not really her thing and just struggling with that and her things. And, and so she was really depressed. And so with that, my struggle was my weight because I had, you know, I was never hungry. My mom, there was shelter, there was food and all of that. But when it came to, you know, anything else like guidance and stuff like that, it was just, you know, I get up, I was very, very independent. You know, it was just my sister was independent as well. Like my sister left really early. But, you know, I was at, you know, it was just me and my mom. So I would get up and, you know, make breakfast. My mom worked a lot, so I make breakfast, go to school, come home and You know, you know, just that was me. So as I started getting older, I took care of myself. Yeah. Oh, she taught me how to do all these things. How you cook, this is how you do this, this is how you drive. I was driving. I was the only 9th grader driving to school. Mom was like, here, you, you know, you could drive. Uh, I drove. But you didn't have a license. I didn't have a license. No, not yet. But we got that, we got that permit though. I got the learner's permit and, uh, that'll keep you from getting the ticket. The ticket won't be as big. So that was, that was my struggle. Those are some— I think that was my mom struggling with depression, and then my dad being like, being gone. It was just like, you know, I'm just trying to figure out what I'm doing. And that's— I did that for a very, very long time. I mean, I did that from, I would say, the age of I was 15, uh, 14, 15 is when it started. And I've been working, literally working ever since then. I haven't had a— have not had a job since then.

You said it started. What's it?

The depression and his mom's depression. Oh yeah, his dad. Yeah, his dad being called to the military.

Yep. So, okay. And then my mom lost her— she ended up losing her job and, um, And she was fine for a while, like for a few years. The answer to everything back then was like, you know, alcohol or whatever. And my mom chose alcohol, so that was it. And she struggled with that for a real long time. And, you know, she struggled with it for a really long time. And yeah, so that was a part of it. But yeah, that's kind of—

did you struggle with it? For a really long time. Did it bother you during this time? How did it— did it affect you negatively?

I don't, I don't think— I think as a parent now, I mean, struggle with it, not so much. I think as— I think recently, the one of the things that I, that I have noticed that, because I've always talked, I was like, man, it's definitely— I was, I was definitely undercover, like I was being protected, someone was protecting me, the Lord was protecting me throughout all that time. Because if you look at it, all the other people in my surroundings, which were struggling with some of the same things— Mississippi, Jackson, Mississippi wasn't known for just that one thing. Fruit of the Loom, all those manufacturing plants, that was the home of them, and they're all gone. So when that happened, all these people lost their jobs, and it's just, it's a community of this happening. Some of my cousins and friends and whatever, they didn't have the same thing. While we were all struggling with the same thing of trying to figure out our way, people were eating dinner at our house. They knew they can come to our house and eat. Even if you may not see my mom, but you knew that there was heat or AC and there was food and it was a safe place. Like it was always safe. Um, and you know, I was thankful for that throughout that time. Even though my mom struggled with it, it was still for the most part safe. Um, and the struggle that I have recently realized is that when it comes to being a parent is where I think is, is where I struggle with— not, I don't struggle with it, but it's probably a frustration, like a little. And I don't get very angry when it comes to like, I'm quick to forgive. And I mean, I love my parents. I look at my mom the same, like, I still believe she's the greatest mom in the world. But as I'm trying to teach my sons how to do things or respond to my daughters in ways, it's like, man, I don't like it. This would be a lot easier if I at least had a place, you know, to start, like a place. Because what I know is it was just independent, independent, independent. So my automatic response is to, is to do the opposite. I don't want them to be very independent because I don't want them to, you know, even though I say that it doesn't really bother me, I've never struggled with anything like you know, nothing. Like, I mean, it's just I've taken it and I've been able to channel it in a way that has been productive. So whenever I do something, it's like I can put my all into this because I know that I can— I normally take those things and I put it into it. It's like, this was a struggle and I can't fail at this because if I fail at this, then it's just me because I'm the independent one, right? So I have to do this, I have to succeed in this. So I, I put it all into it, and then that's— that can be good in a way, and then it could also be bad in a way, because then you start looking at things and you're like, well, she's out of my league. Like, she's out of my league, you know? That's— I'm too broken for that. Like, I'm not good enough for her. And that's— I mean, that's one of the reasons why we're sitting here, is because she was the one who was like, you know, who said Like, and she didn't know me. So even though my mom spoke love over me, you know, my sister loved me. Yeah, and I know that they loved me, but they didn't do a very good job at— I don't know, like capturing— I don't know how to explain it, but Paige, she could. So she could say something, and she was invested in, like, in me for a reason that didn't make sense. Like, you don't have a reason to be on a date with me. Like, why would you want to be here with me? And to hear some of the stuff today, I just want to talk and we could talk for hours and I'd be like, this is crazy. Like, I've never talked this much in my life.

Do you still feel this way?

Yeah. I mean, that's— yes. I mean, it's a— do I feel like she's out of my league? Yeah, I still believe she's out of my league for sure. I mean, every day is a reminder. It's like, oh man. 15 years. Yes.

Do you still feel like after you've had some long conversation, like, you're worth it?

Oh, I believe that we— I think that— I don't— I think that it's— this is worth it. And I think that— I still believe that she's still— I still believe she's a gift. I still don't believe that I was worthy of her. Just because she's just, yeah.

Now see, that's a really sweet thing to say also, right?

She's over there blushing. If I wasn't a Christian, then I would say that I don't understand it and I don't get it. But as my faith has taught me that, no, I'm not worthy of it. I'm really not worthy of the gifts that I receive.

Now, you linked it to this drive to be independent, but somewhere in there that also made you feel broken.

Yes.

Because something happened to where you want your children to be dependent. So to me, that's saying there's some bad in being independent.

I believe that. There is. There, if you don't— yeah.

So when does—

yeah, yeah, I do. There is some bad in it.

Yeah. What is the bad in it? Because independent for a lot of people seems like a good thing.

Yeah.

Like you get independent, you have this will, you're not interested in the schoolmates because you're focused, you just want to work. That can be a good thing.

Yeah.

But everything has a blessing and curse.

So what's in the curse? The curse is I don't need anybody. And while I don't believe that— I do believe she's out of my league. I'm also on this, and I think we talked about this before. I wasn't going to get married. I used to tell people, I'm not getting married. I'm not going to get married. I want kids, so I'm going to have to be an independent dad, but I'm not getting married. It was just a weird thing. I don't even know why, but, but thinking about that, and I remember like I dissected that years ago. I was like, why would I say something like that? Why would I do that? And then just thinking about it is because everything that it represented was I would have to, I would have to, you know, submit or would have to relinquish or give up some of who I am in order to be with somebody. In order for me to do that, that means that I'm giving up my independence. I want to be by myself. I want to do this on my own. I do— I don't want to be single and alone, but I don't want to be held back. I want to— and that's— that was one of the things that I developed from this. It was like, you know, I just— I have to be better than this. I have to do more. Like, I have to do more for my family. I have to prove myself to people, to the world, to my family, that You know, that I am worthy, that I am, that I am capable.

Do you feel worthy yourself?

Oh yeah. Oh yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. I am.

You feel worthy in yourself, but you still feel like you have to convince other people that you're worthy?

Nope. Not anymore.

Not anymore.

That was definitely no. One was I learned that Paige already said this. I learned Paige mentioned it from her family. I know who I was. I figured out who I belong to, and then I discovered, wait a second, you know, while I don't have a relationship with my father, with my skin father, or my skin, whatever, my skin God, you know, the Lord who has been watching over me this entire time, the one that's protected me from, you know, the environment that most people, you know, become because of because of their environment. I didn't, like, I'm completely opposite of what, you know, what I was the most likely to not— I was the most unlikely to succeed. Unlikely to succeed, right? Yeah, it was, it was a thing. Like, nobody said it, but I remember, you know, I mean, if you go back to our high school class, like, it was— and not that this, that means anything, but I remember the class ranking. And I remember like we had like 400-some people and I was like 307. I was like, well, I guess I'm not the last, but, uh, you know, you know, but I knew deep down inside that, um, I knew that I was worthy. You know, my mom, them, my mom didn't teach me. They taught me how to be a good person. You know, as a man, if you get married, you need to take care of your family. You need to take care of your wife. You need to love them. You need to do all these things. They They told me these things, but they didn't— they weren't an example of it because, you know, it just, it was, it was, it just wasn't— they weren't a very good example of it. So, um, and they had, I guess they, they had seen it, but they really hadn't lived it. And I think that that's what's interesting about Paige's family because her parents were the exact same way. So our parents grew up in the same environment of, you know, broken, broken families. Um, they're still, um, they're still centered on family, but they're broken. Like, they're just, they're broken as in, you know, it's just you gotta survive, but we love each other, we're gonna do these things, but it's broken. When I say broken, like, my grandfather, my grandma lived in the same house for, I don't know, like 50-some years together, you know, been married since they were 16. You know, they had separate bedrooms and he had another family. You know, it was the, you know, but he had a big family. Like, exactly. That was like, oh, well, that's normal. And that, you know, her family, her parents came from that same environment as my family, but they were— her family got married, stayed together, center. And the only difference was their family was centered on Christ and ours wasn't.

So, but no, I mean, I think that's the that's a good point though. I think I, I always knew there was a difference, and that even in the environment that we grew up in, it was, it was different. Like I said, you know, I was the only Black girl in a lot of situations, and, um, and growing up with that experience, you know, my parents would be like, okay, you're different, you know, you're— it's good, you're gonna be different, but just don't forget, you know, who you, who you are. Like, you don't, don't forget that because you know, you're, you are a Hamilton. And, um, what were they saying?

You were different? Were they talking about your skin color? Were they talking about you're a Hamilton?

They were. No, I think everything was both. It was both. But I think just that having that sense of awareness, um, you know, it helped me. And it, it was never a, um, like, oh, you know, you can't talk to other people. And it was never this, like, this and them. Because, you know, my whole life it was very much this, you know, I didn't— I saw color. I mean, I did see color, but at the same time I learned to embrace the cultural differences that we had. So, you know, school was one way, and then church— we went to a predominantly black church, so it was like that was a, you know, that was also a different world. And then here was my family, like coexisting in the midst of both of those things. Right, yeah.

You said you saw color.

Yep.

What age did you start seeing color?

Always. I don't think I've never— I don't think it was never like a, I don't, I don't see color.

I mean, is that good or bad?

I think it's a great thing. I think it's good to see color. I think that it makes you aware. I've worked a camp, a Young Life camp in Colorado. And I remember like going in, um, to bring in something to like one of the houses, and one of the kids— their parents were like staying there for the summer— and she goes, oh, your skin is brown. I've never seen— and this, this little girl's like 4 or 5 years old— and she was like, why is your skin that color? I've never seen anyone with brown skin before. And I was like What? But then I had to remember because my uncle had met me like right when I got there and like took me out for lunch and he was like, there's not a lot of Black people here. He's like, I know you're gonna go work at a summer camp and that's cool, so you're probably gonna be in a different environment, but I just wanna like, like warn you, there's not a lot of Black people here. And I was like, oh, okay. And so when this little girl is like talking about me in terms of my skin, it was not— I mean, I did not take offense to it at all, but I remember being like, this is so strange.

Yeah, how old was she?

She was like 4, 5 years old.

I mean, you think— okay, so I've observed my kids and it seemed like early on that they didn't see color.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

And I'll be honest, I kind of thought, well, maybe that's good, uh, you know. And then I did see Chip and Joanna Gaines get on with— I can't remember his name, but it's It's called Hard Conversations with Black Men.

Yeah, I saw that one.

And the Gaines are the same way.

They came in with this idea that not seeing color, like just treat everyone the same.

It doesn't matter.

And the man's opinion on it though was that we should teach our children to see color.

Yeah, well, because we celebrate our differences. Yeah, I can see the value in that.

Yeah, of course. I think it's healthy. And I think that, you know, sometimes when we acknowledge that, it helps us to be able to be in community with one another.

Right.

And I think sometimes when we ignore that, then it's— and the thing is, although we are Americans, we do have different experiences living in America, and I think that that's just, you know, that's just a reality. And some people may not want to acknowledge that, but I, I do think that that's a fair statement in that, you know, that we do have different experiences.

Okay. It's kind of like— is it kind of like referring to some blonde?

Yeah.

Or redhead?

Yeah.

Or somebody with freckles? Yeah. There was a point in our— where our kids would say, uh, we'd talk about Mike Dixon is coming or something and at some point they're trying to figure out who this is, they would say, was that the black guy?

Yeah.

They could have said, was that the guy with the good teeth?

Gigantic muscles.

Or Jack Black.

He has gigantic muscles.

Yeah, yeah.

So do you sit down and have a conversation with kids, or do you— how do you teach them to see color? How do I teach my kids to see color?

So I think this is one of the benefits to, so I saw color when I didn't see color until I got to Georgia.

Cause you were in a predominantly Black community.

Yeah.

Really?

Yep. I didn't see it.

I mean, there was surely some white people.

There was the administrators. But you didn't think.

I never even made a note of it. Of it?

No, like I never, like if you, I knew nothing about them other than if you asked me before if, or who they were, I would just refer to them as the white administrator. That's the only thing I know about them. I knew that they were females, but other than that, like I knew nothing about them because of the, I mean, the area that we lived in, my mom my mom had, because of where my mom worked, she had a few friends that were white and she knew them. Like, she really did know them, as in, you know, they worked together, they partied together, they were friends. Like, they hung out, they were friends. And I didn't, I never, I don't remember having a conversation with a white person or like, I don't even remember until I got to, you know, maybe I'm trying to remember when I was in 9th grade after that or something. But before that, not really. Even like traveling, it was still like, if we— I went, I spent my summers in, in Texas, in Houston, Texas, and it was still— they were like, so I think that proximity, it— proximity and actually proximity doesn't solve the issue, or it doesn't solve, or it doesn't teach, I don't believe. Because while we lived in a— I'm sorry, we live in an apartment complex, or we were staying in an apartment complex in Texas, you know, it was still the group of individuals that we, you know, were in community with were all Black. The church we went to, they were all Black. Like, it was just— and so I don't even remember seeing it. Like, it wasn't until it was like something bad. In my experience, that was, that was my experience. It was always, it was something bad. Um, you either get pulled over, um, or you gotta go to, um, or, or I'm sorry, the insurance man.

So you get pulled over and then it's the white cop.

Yeah, that's normally the insurance man or the insurance man.

Okay.

Yeah, that was it.

I remember the insurance associate.

So like bad things.

Yeah.

Yes.

The insurance man came when our house burned down, and then the, the police officers was after a car accident or something, or something. It was associated with something outside of like community.

So I think that's a good point though, because I— when you said how do we teach our kids this, I think that there's a difference between proximity and community.

Yeah.

And so for us, I, I would say that And even I'm thinking about my upbringing, it was— my parents were very intentional about what, like, community. So in terms of like, okay, you can see all these people that don't look like you, but yet you're still going to be in community with them, meaning they can come over your house, you can go over their house, uh, we're having a, you know, birthday party or something. And so I think, you know, Yeah, everyone's going to see color. And if you don't see color, you're lying to me. I mean, you see the color of my skin, but that does not define me. And I think that we break those barriers of what that means when we're living in community opposed to proximity.

Yeah.

My sister did this thing when we moved to Georgia. It was one of the big reasons for her saying, hey, you need to come here, but you need to be exposed because my sister had done this. She was the— it was— she had done all these other things. So she knew that, you know, you're more than what, you know, your environment is. You're way more than this. My sister, she went to— she studied at NASA. And I remember when she got that, it was like a big deal because we were like, this is going to be dangerous. Like, they're like, how are you going to go and live there? Like, there's no— like, our community of people, like, you're going to be there by yourself. And I think it was Huntsville, Alabama. And we had heard horror stories about the place. And we were just like, and my mom was super worried. My sister was fine, no issues, you know, she thrived, right? While she does look, if you look at the picture, she does, she's not, she doesn't look like me. What do you mean?

She looks like she's Native American.

So we really didn't have anything to worry about, she was fine. However, when we moved to Georgia, my sister told me, she was like, hey, you know, I know that this environment is different. This is her trying to expose me to my environment and trying to be intentional about exposing me to, you know, color. And she says, hey, you need a white friend. And I was like, what? She was like, you need to be very intentional about, like, you need to, like, I'm not telling you to force yourself to do anything. She was like, but when the opportunity comes, don't shy away from friending me, you know, someone just because of the color of their skin. And, uh, and then she'd have to say in Mississippi because everybody was Black, so it wasn't— you didn't really have a choice. You didn't have an opportunity exactly to do it. And she was like, she's like, some of the best experiences in my life have been when I've allowed myself to do that. And sure enough, the opportunity presented itself faster than I thought. One of the guys in my class was like, hey, would you— first of all, he asked me if I could give him a ride home, which was really weird. I'd never met him before. He was like, hey, can you give me a ride home? You drive, right? He's like, can you drop me off?

He's just looking for someone who's got a car.

Exactly. Yes. He's like, can I get a ride? I live right outside the school. I was like, I don't know if my my mom said, my sister said I can't have people in the car or whatever. And he was like, well, I'll ask my mom and whatever. And sure enough, I gave him a ride and I dropped him off around the corner. And sure enough, the next day in class, he was like, hey, can we do this every day? He asked, yeah, is what he did. He's like, I really don't think it'll be a big deal. But he says, hey, we're going, you know, we talked in class and stuff. Outside of that, we hadn't done anything. He invited me to a football game. I was like, okay, cool, I'll go to a football game. I'm surrounded by other people, so it's not just you and I. After I went to the football game, he says, hey, we're going camping. And I was like, what? And I was like, I've never been camping before. I had never done any of that. Is this kid not seeing colors? Right, no. Now that I know his mom, now I know his mom and his dad, I know that they told him the same thing. At some point they had this conversation, and they had met me before at the football game, and I'm pretty sure they were like, hey, you know, I don't know what they said, but he says, uh, he's like, we're going camping.

Like his family, not like a bunch of guys.

No, this is family. This is a tradition.

Okay.

Every year. Oh, okay. And you're in.

You're in. Yeah.

Right. And I was like, okay, I don't know. Like, I'll ask, you know, I'll ask. And I was like, I don't want to do that. I don't want to go camp. Like, I don't want to do that. Why would I want to go and sleep outside? That sounds horrible. Especially somewhere I've never been and around people that I don't know. And sure enough. So I go home and I tell my sister, I was like, So Drew is his name. Uh, Drew asked me if I want to go camping, and my sister said, you should. Did you say yes? And I was like, no. First of all, that's kind of weird that you're like so, you know, okay with me just leaving. And she's like, you should go. Like, you need to go. She tell me more about it. When I was like, well, I don't know, I didn't ask any questions. And, and his mom called. It really means a lot to His mom called, called my sister and was like, I know that that may, like, just so you don't think we're crazies. Her husband was in the Air Force. And so it's like a military. Yeah. So automatically it's a, okay, we understand that we have something. Right. And my sister, you know, it wasn't a thing for her. She's like pushing you out the door. Right. Yeah. And I come home and she's like, I talked to Ms. Rockwell and I was I was like, what? And this, you know, you're gonna go here, it's for the weekend. She was like, you don't have to go, you're gonna go there for— I was like, for a full weekend? I'm gonna go live with these people? And she was like, it's outside, there are going to be other people there. And she was like, it's gonna be like, you will not regret it. And I will not regret it because it was life-changing in a number of ways. Uh, but it was amazing. Uh, I went and, um, and that was my first experience to it. They were I mean, it was, it was the, it was, they exposed me to things I had never done where I never water skied, um, dislocated my shoulder though. It was like, it was the last day, like, but the way that they responded to my injury was like, man, like y'all really do care. I mean, they were really nice, like just, um, yeah. So I mean, just, I, it felt like family, like, and I only had family, like I didn't, we didn't outside people weren't really accepted. It was like, we're family. Like, I went to school with my family. We walked to school together. It was all together. No outsiders. It was just us. So I recognized it right away, and I was like, man, like, these people really do— like, they're genuine people. And again, it was different. Husband, wife, two kids, and a dog, and two big dogs. Yeah. I was like, oh man, I had— I've read stories about stuff like this and it's like, it's real. Like, how big were they? They were huge. Uh, Golden Retrievers. They were Golden Retrievers.

They had, uh, German Shepherds.

Didn't they have German Shepherds? No, the hairy, uh, Golden Retrievers. They were Golden Retrievers, the big ones. Yeah, yeah. Did, uh— I gotta ask this in the car with them before we get to—

did, did Now I want to go back to this guy. You said it, you said black people don't camp or don't like camping. It's kind of a broad statement, right?

Yeah. Yeah.

So he's going back to seeing color and things. I just want to just get it out there and clarify. So this— I'm kind of— you sound like you had a good time.

It was. Yeah, I did.

So either this kid didn't know that black people don't like camping, or Or he thought, well, maybe you like camping.

Yeah.

Drew just wanted a friend.

He just thought you were cool. He just wanted a friend.

And you had a car.

And I had a car. Yeah. That broke down after like 2 times.

It was bad.

Around the corner from his house too.

But you didn't take any offense to him asking you to go camping?

No, I was actually— no, no offense.

Like, he should know.

Like, you didn't think, oh, he should know, black people So I didn't think it, I didn't think, I didn't think Black people, I didn't think that as I was only in 10th grade, so I was just like, that don't sound fun. It wasn't, we just had never done it.

Let me clarify that statement because we are not a monolithic group, right? Black, some Black people may like camping, you know what I'm saying? But it's not a, but as a group, but I would say that a lot of the Black people that I know they don't typically go camping.

Well, I should say, hopefully we get to this.

Yeah, yeah, farming also.

Yeah, yeah, you don't see a lot of Black people at the homesteading event or the farming event.

So hopefully we'll get to that.

And you're saying, and, and, oh, and I think that that is primarily due to these false, these stereotypes.

Okay.

I mean, not, not like, I think that, I mean, just, just from what I've noticed is my sister said this, she was like, there are some people that will never ever change or be exposed to different things because they won't take, they won't allow, they won't allow themselves to be put in an environment that they don't know or that they're, that doesn't look like them or around people that they don't know or they that it will prevent them from being able to do things. And that's exactly what it was, because after I went camping, I, I was like, man, this is— I enjoy this. Like, this is a lot of fun. Until I joined the military, and then it's like, well, it's just a— I don't really like it that much. But, uh, it's different ways. Exactly. Water skiing and all that stuff sounds so much job.

It's not so much fun.

Well, I don't want to pay to go do it.

But not to get like super deep into all these things, but I mean, I remember watching a— I don't know what it was, reading a book or a podcast, just some form of content, but it was talking about like one of the reasons why a lot of Black people don't do— or just African Americans in general don't do a lot of activities outdoors. I mean, you have to think about slavery. You think about like we didn't even have the freedom to go out and explore the woods and just without the fear of getting lynched. And so with that being said, that did create a precedent in a lot of people's psyche that Black people don't, we don't go outside at nighttime. You know, that's just not what we do culturally. That's not what we do.

My mom probably would have, if my mom were there, she probably would have said no.

She would have, because it would be like, it's not safe.

My sister, having, yeah, being from a different time.

Okay.

You know, seeing things. So my mom was post, like, Jim Crow. My mom grew up during Jim Crow, so she experienced it, uh, in Mississippi.

I mean, it's—

it's— you don't have to drive far to see it there. Um, shielded us from it by moving away from the country to the city. Okay, right. We don't want anything to do with it. Left the farmland. We're moving to the city. It's safer. Um, so we moved to the city. My sister grows up during that time. My sister's the— I heard about, I read about it, I look kind of different, so people don't really associate me, so I'm gonna go and I'm gonna experience life different. And she did. And that was— and I had exposure to that because it was my sister. She's like, okay, so you're gonna come here with me, we're gonna go do these things, we're gonna go and, you know, go out on the lake, and we're gonna go do these things. My sister was like the, the the leading, the catalyst for that for my family. She was the first person to leave to go to college outside of the state. So I mean outside of, or to go to college period. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So that was, that allowed us to see things a little differently. So, but yeah, my mom would be like, no, you know, it's not safe. Yeah, yeah, I wouldn't, I wouldn't do that. But also my mom, my family did go camping on church trips.

So I'm not going to act like, like we never did it. Like, we, we would do it.

Have y'all gone camping as a family now?

Yeah, yeah, I would hear into it. Yeah, I mean, that was it. After that, I was like, I'm going every year. Like, I even call, like, that family.

We used to do camping with the family.

Yeah, yeah. I mean, they definitely—

we should camp more.

He doesn't like it.

You do come out with this.

Yeah, I don't like I like camping, by the way. You come back drained.

No, I like hiking in. I like putting—

I want to go car camping. I want to put it all in my car. You just gotta have the— the eggs, sausage, cast iron skillet.

So you're like, yeah, not camping in the car, but like all your stuff is there. You don't have to like put it on your back like 5 miles. Yeah, it's like, I don't want to. I've done that. I backpacked once and I was like, No, see, I like backpacking. Never doing that. Well, you guys together, Paige and I, you guys can go backpacking. We'll keep the kids at the creek. It'll be fun.

Yeah, just what we can carry on our back.

I like that. That's the way to do it. That's what people love to do.

I'm not doing that. I need to have cast iron skillet.

I need to be able to cook some eggs and make—

eggs. I was like, how are we supposed to get eggs out there? You got to figure out a way. Exactly right.

It's on you too.

Exactly.

To me, that's a prerequisite.

So we'll keep the kids that don't want to go backpacking with you guys.

Yeah, that's a lot of fun.

It'll be so much fun because I'll enjoy that.

Sounds like what you're saying, going back to—

sorry—

to seeing color is exposure, creating community around that, uh, in diversity.

Yeah, I agree.

Your community, um, I mean, we've been Intentionality is, I think, the— it's, it's very, very important when it comes to trying to teach anything. Like, if you— if being intentional, and I don't even say vulnerable because we're vulnerable people, like, people take chances, but it's like, but how intentional are you with saying, okay, we're gonna go do this, you know? Like, I'm going to go— some of the things that we do is not by choice because Every job that I had in the military, I was the only— every job. And it was like, whoa, like it was even more of an exposure for me because this was like, whoa, like, okay, got it. So putting myself in the position where it's like, well, I wasn't intentionally doing that, but the things that I wanted in life, it just ended up being like, well, these are the people that are here, so if you want to do this, this is what it looks like. and then I realized like, man, okay, we just— I just have to be intentional about these things. Like, we have to be intentional about the people that we are in community with, the people that, um, kind of— in the military, they make it very, very easy for you though. Yeah, because you don't really have a choice. You're gonna move on this day at this time, and these are options for where you stay. Your neighbors are who they are. Like, that's what it is.

Even with like making friends, like, it was just like, oh, your husband's in this unit. My husband's like, oh, you have kids? I have kids. It doesn't matter how old you are. It doesn't matter what race you are. It doesn't even matter.

It doesn't matter.

It's just okay.

Yeah, I've never— the military has been like, it really did, it, it helped us to, it prepared us to go out and live. I mean, to now, we, we only know it this way, like, because that's every time we went somewhere, it was like, oh, oh, they're military. Okay, cool. No, no one cared about what you look like. Like, that was a—

that's the common bond in the struggle was the military.

Exactly. Yes, I know that your husband is gone, my husband's gone, we're struggling together.

Like, really, it was like, your husband's deployed? Okay, we're gonna get together and have playdates and dinner. Yeah, because we know, like, it's an understood struggle.

And then it allows you to— as you're in community, as you're in community, not just proximity, but in community. Proximity is You know, we're walking our kids to the bus stop together, and then we get in our cars and go separate. Community is we're walking to the bus stop together, we're gonna leave, we're gonna go, and we're gonna run errands together, and then we're gonna talk about my husband being gone, the struggles. That is community. Because now, when the bad things— or when we want to have these conversations about— because we've had it where people like, well, what do you guys think about that? What do you think about this? And then it's like Oh man, like there are some people that would think, okay, well that I don't necessarily— they don't really, they never really have to think about the whole racism thing. They don't have to really think about color and, you know, all the, you know, things that are happening to people out in the world, these experiences. Um, because when we see each other, it's like, well, oh, we know white people, or they, or we know black people and they don't act like that, you know, or they don't talk like that. They don't do the they're great people, like, and so we're in this community and we're like, this is normal, but then when you leave that community and you go outside of it, you're just like, it's not the same because you have to start from scratch because you can't— I can't just go up to Justin and say, hey Justin, what do you think about that? Like, what do you think about this? Do you— let's get together. And it's like, well, I don't really know because I don't really know you. Like, I don't know you. Like, what are you talking about? Like, That's unusual for, you know, and then to have a conversation about, well, personal things.

Yeah.

Yeah. Like, let's talk about personal. It's hard. Like you can't. So yeah, I think community proximity and community are two different things. And in order to, you know, see color and understand it, you have to be in community together, not just proximity.

It helps out because this is a largely white audience, I'm imagining. And so what, You know, we're fortunate because the business we in, we come across a lot of people, and— but not everybody has that situation. So in like this county, you know, if I didn't have this platform, in this county there's like 2% Black people. So it's like, how does— how can you advise somebody in that situation?

Is it—

and I guess this is what I'm getting at too— is it okay to seek someone out just because they're Black, and maybe that being the only common— or so, see what I'm saying?

Like saying, like, oh, I don't have any Black friends.

Is that superficial?

Not—

I don't want to say need something, but like want to have diversity in your life.

Yeah, yeah, there's anything wrong with that.

Okay.

I mean, now if you were like, I need them to check the box.

Yeah.

Oh yeah.

Yeah, I would, um, I don't, I don't, I, that I can say that. Yeah, yeah, yeah, that's definitely a recipe for it.

There are going to be people hearing this and really want to do this. You're making a great case. Yeah, yeah, it's expanding your mind. Like, you discovered camping. Well, there's things for us to discover too.

Yeah, yeah.

I mean, I feel like diversity, that like, because like people coming through, you guys have had very different experiences than we've had, you know. So I think coming together with people it's a great, like, you know, way to— so you're saying, and be like community.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

So this would be an example. So, so, uh, we catered an event or we hired a hibachi chef.

Yeah.

So I don't think he's Japanese though.

He's not. He is Vietnamese.

But that—

here's an Asian, and you're saying you don't think it's insensitive or to just pursue him just to get some diversity in our life, as opposed to pursuing him because he also farms and you know what I'm saying?

So I wouldn't— so I don't think, and this is in my opinion, in my opinion, I don't think that— I think if you have a heart and a passion If you feel like there's this, you know, if you feel like there's some conviction saying I need to— maybe there was somebody in your life at one point and you felt like you never really— and they were, you know, of a different race, and that person, you didn't give them the opportunity of day because of their difference. Okay, I would say that that's a time where I would say, okay, Well, maybe that's worth going out and saying, I want to make this right. But, and this is just me, this is my opinion, I don't believe that. I don't believe that if where we live, like where we live right now, or where you guys live, if there's none here, yeah, I don't think you should, you know, intentionally get in the car and drive, you know, to a county where there is nobody to do that.

Some people will say that, but I don't believe it.

I don't think you should do that. Like, I would have to—

we drive 30 minutes.

I mean, I mean, and then do we go to the—

we could go to the Black church.

Well, okay, so I will say this.

I mean, I—

the times when I, I felt that my friends really, like, came into my world in terms of community was when they came to church with me. And, and I say that because it wasn't even just like, oh, you're it was like, I feel comfortable inviting you to church with me, and you accept the invitation to come to church with me, because that really is a big, like, point. Like, that's like a big, like, crux of who I am. And, you know, and this is really touchy, so hopefully I'm not offending people, but in terms of church, like, culturally, we do things a little differently.

Yeah.

Culturally. Now, it's not to say that we're challenging different statements on the Trinity or, you know, like all these other really big topics. Like, that's not even it. Like, I— but at the same time, it's like, well, but experiencing church and the way that we're living life and doing community, I felt like that was just a really big like, man, you really care about me. Like, oh, you want to know who I am, you know? And that for me was a really big thing. Now, is it to say that everyone needs to go to like, right, you know, a church where they're the other all the time? I think that's a personal decision. Like, you, you have to make that decision for yourself, and I'm not gonna be the narrator. You have to do those things.

I think what Derek's saying is, you know, you could have went with your mom's notion and just not done it because he was white. Yeah, right. And can't be careful.

Yeah.

You're saying no, do it more for your sister's reasoning. Yeah, just get a white friend, get some diversity.

Yeah, yeah.

And he came after you because you had— you could drive. Yeah, he wasn't necessarily coming after you because you're black.

Exactly.

That's the cool thing.

No, because there are other black kids in the class. He could have gone to any of the— I mean, way more. I wasn't— yeah, I mean, yeah, he— there were more, I guess, attractive people in that class. Yeah, a lot more. Plenty opportunities.

I would say growing up, we— there was maybe a couple of black kids come through our Christian school, but that was when crisscross was cool. You guys remember crisscross? Wear the pants backwards? Yeah, yeah, like the rappers are cool, right?

So then, you know, see, I have a different experience. I grew up in Florida. Yeah. And there was a lot more diversity there. And so like in our, in our church community, we had diversity. In my private school that I attended, I had— there was at least. So it was, it was more white than black, but we had a good group of black kids as well though, do you know what I mean?

I remember going to your church and thinking, this is not a white church, this is not a black church.

Yeah, we had, we had a very good match, like a, a, um, I don't know what you call it, but we had both. We had a lot of races there. It wasn't just that. So I mean, so then, you know, I moved here and it's all white. Yeah, I mean, there was, um, there was some— there was this like, because we do have 2% in our, in our, um, county, and I went to the city school, so there was a more majority in our high school. But yeah, I mean, but then our church was all white.

Yeah, yeah.

Now, remember this, we got to tell them this. You guys know Tony Evans?

Yeah, yeah, yeah, we went to that church.

So we went to that church and Kirk Franklin surprised us. Maybe I know what you're talking about, about like different styles of worship, because we grew up in like a Baptist.

Oh yeah, yeah, yeah, my auntie is actually, uh, is a deacon at, uh, really? Yeah, yeah, deaconess at that one.

It was really great, we really enjoyed our time. Time there.

But then you went— we also went to the David Crowder.

We also went to David Crowder.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, church.

He leads worship at some place.

It was an honor.

It was different. That was— I'm sure there were some Black people there, but it was mostly white.

It was, it was.

But that was even different too than, yeah, what we grew up in.

So it's good.

I mean, more so for Justin, he, he grew up in this county, so, you know, it's— it isn't— it's just not very diverse.

Well, you know what I'm finding out is, well, those churches are different. We, we could have Mike and Lacey Dixon— well, they're going to be here next week. Yeah, churches, they— every individual church is going to have different things. You pick. Mike's gonna have a different idea. Oh yeah, on race, there's no— I don't know if there's a blanket.

Yeah, I don't think you guys are all individuals. Yeah, with all your own thought process, different experiences.

It's a really big deal. I'm sure they've seen things different with them being a—

yeah, exactly.

So that is— I know that there are, you know, there are challenges and things that come with that as well. So they would see things differently than— I'm sure they do, even though— I mean, because we've been to, you know, we've, we've tried to be intentional about— we've tried it a couple different ways. We've tried, okay, we're gonna go do this and we're gonna do it because we felt led to do this. We're gonna go to this church and we're gonna expose ourselves to this different environment, a white church or a majority white church or Asian church or Asian church or whatever. I went to Asia, I lived in Korea, I went to Asian church, so it was just a thing, didn't really care. But however, I think that a lot of the times it's, it's coming from the individual and the individual experience. So I think a lot of this depends on the individual when it comes to like racism and, you know, race and all these things. I, I was raised in a family of people that were raised like they were racist against the other others, not just white people, others, anybody that didn't look like them. And they may not, they wouldn't say that. They would be like, oh no, I'm not racist. And it's like, well, yeah, you are. That's exactly, that's the definition of it. But one of the things that I've learned, you know, growing up and studying is it's the individual, the individual, you know, either they have, either they have their own, it's the way that they perceive things is where they're you know, what their— what their heart— what their heart posture is. Um, some, some people is sinful, and then some people it's, you know, something that they struggle with. And some people it's just the ignorance, like they just don't know anymore.

I was gonna say, I think a lot of times it is a lack of exposure. It's just really ignorant because they've— they have in their heart and in their mind said, well, I'm gonna distance myself and not expose myself to different people that don't look like people that don't talk like me on purpose. And again, I think it really is a heart posture because it's like, well, do you feel like you can't expose yourself to other people? Or like you're so great, like you're withholding yourself from other people, then I don't know, right? Is that a good move? Because again, like you're really, you know, you're— I feel like you're creating boundaries that don't necessarily have to be there. So if there is an opportunity to engage with other people with other races, I say go for it. Because you will learn something. It will help you to see the world differently, and I think it'll just make you better in all ways.

Yeah, I think what will happen— so our kids are out playing together now.

Yeah.

They're 5.

Yeah, you're 5.

And I think at a very— at a much earlier age, my kids will— or your kids will, you know, notice and rub the skin and say, "Oh, this is white." Or, "You have freckles." And so I think that I can see how that can happen.

I had some Black girls in my elementary school. Because you went to a Black school? I went to, it was half and it was basically half and half, you know, but the girls would, they would just touch my hair.

Yeah.

They would just rub my hair and I just remember being like, No, it kind of freaked her out. It did freak me out. Because I did not know them. They would just be like—

But that's what you guys were getting at. You can't just start an abrupt conversation like this without having some relationship.

They were just in proximity. They were in my community. Exactly. I did not know them at all.

So you're on the bus and some white person starts rubbing your hands. Okay.

But if Rebecca was like, can I—

Yeah, I mean, my mom explained it. And she was just like, they don't have hair like you. And they just wanted to feel it. And that, when she explained it to me, I was like, oh, okay. Like it didn't freak me out anymore when I came home and I said, mom, they just were like touching my hair and I didn't know what to do. And I had very blonde hair.

Yeah.

Oh, white.

It was like white. It was like super white. So they were kind of like, what is going on here?

But if they would've, if y'all would've, if I would've, if they would've been my friends, you're having a sleepover.

Yeah.

And you're doing each other's hair.

Yeah.

Right. Yes, those conversations, those things, I mean, those things when we went camping, that was one of the things they were like, aren't you gonna put on sunscreen? And I was like, for what? I remember being like, I don't have to wear that. Like, yeah, we joke about this to this day.

My best friend is an esthetician, and so she's, you know, SPF every day, all the time. And when we were in and like growing up, like, I don't know, I probably said this, I've been friends with her since kindergarten, but, um, I remember looking at her being like, girl, black people don't need sunscreen, you have built-in sunscreen. And now I'm eating those words because it's like, no, actually you do need it. I do need it.

You do need it. It's helpful.

It is not quite as soon as us.

Yeah, yeah, right. Yeah, I don't, I don't have to worry about wear. Yeah, because now I burn really bad.

I believe that in my like, yeah, just, we joke about it all the time now, like, because, you know, yeah, you just think, you know, yeah, like when you're—

well, I remember asking my mom when I was a kid, we were at the beach in Florida, and I'm like, do they have to wear sunscreen too? Because, you know, we're just lathering it up.

Yeah, yeah.

And she's like, no, I don't think so.

No, but we do. Yeah, you really do. You really should. It will burn you up. Yes, I've burned living in South America. I got burned. I remember being like, I gotta go buy sunscreen. I never, I've never worn sunscreen ever until I was like 27, right? And I burnt— it burned my head so bad. Yeah. And they were— I remember the guys being like, did you put something on your head? I was like, no. They're like, dude, you're gonna be in trouble. Like, I'm like, I'm never wearing sunscreen. Every now and then my nose will peel, but outside of that I'm good.

He wears sunscreen for the record. I pack it in my bag.

It takes you longer to get vitamin D. It does. We know this because we've got the vitamin D app. She has more darker skin.

I do.

I have black skin. She tans.

Also Native American.

A lot easier than me. I can get my vitamin D requirement in like 15 minutes. That's actually—

I know. Well, he— we say his skin is clear. Yeah, yeah, because literally he's just like— he does.

But I guess heritage-wise, I guess we— is—

yeah, I mean, I have more further north.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

So I did say earlier that you blushed. Now I don't know if you turned red, but you were giving the blush motion, so I like this family. I like how they're— oh, you got to get some sunscreen on.

Yeah, you got to get some. Yeah, you want to go camping with us, right?

I know.

Oh yeah, they were— they're the best, the Rockwells. Yes, yes, yes, they are. Uh, yeah, interesting bunch, the Rockwell family. They were Air Force and we were Navy. Um, and I joined that— I joined the Army. Their son joined the Army. This is the thing, and I was we were both, they were a blessing to us or a blessing to me. And I was like, I was a blessing to him.

Right.

And that was for a number of reasons. I mean, as friends, we struggled together. He was my friend, he was my true friend. And I learned some things from him you know, from family as well. Like, you know, just because, just because you have a mom and a dad at home, you know, the, the, you know, the cookie-cutter lifestyle or whatever, it's on, you know, that doesn't really mean that, right, that you're better off and more like it's not perfect, right? Doesn't mean you're happy. And I started learning that, you know, from them. And they were just like, you know, we like, hey, we're real, this is real, we fight, we argue, you know. We, uh, he was going through a rebellion stage and, you know, I was there from the other side of it. And I just remember them being like, hey, you know, you're really good, like, you're, you're, you're like, you, you're a really big influence on him. So, and I just want you to know that, like, you know, his mom told me that, you know. And so much to the point where when I got kicked out of the school, they transferred their son to go to school with me. So he had to— they would drop him off every day at our house. So that he can go to school. And that was— and yeah, we're still friends to this day. Friendship is so important. Yep, yep. And, uh, you know, I mean, the family was just a blessing. Uh, they taught me, taught me a lot of different things, and then I taught them some things about, you know, a few, few things like eating and certain things that we don't do. And, uh, yeah, yeah, it was, it was interesting.

I saw it as an experience. They invited us over for Thanksgiving. Yeah, that was an experience. Oh yeah.

So do they live near you guys then?

No, no, no, they're in Augusta. They're in Augusta.

He's in Florence for Thanksgiving.

Yeah, we were just like in town visiting our family and yeah, they were like, hey, come on over, come over for dinner, like we're gonna wait.

I was like, well, her parents Thanksgiving looks a little different. Uh, her family Thanksgiving is— and if you've seen our stuff, like it's a big deal. Like Thanksgiving is a really big deal for us. Way more food than anybody needs, but we're gonna cook it all. We're still gonna do it. Yeah, uh, we're gonna eat it for days and days out.

That's the best thing.

That's what we do.

That's the best thing about Thanksgiving.

And they waited for us, and we were like, it's Thanksgiving. We— Thanksgiving is family time for me. When I— the way that my family— it was— that's all family. You don't go anywhere. We stay together. It's, it's family, you know, unless you get invited over to the house. Like, we're not going. But they invited us over, and we were like, oh, uh, we're going because they're family. So, and we go, and it was an experience. Like, I was like, oh, this is a young— you think you're not gonna get Elaborate on this. I mean, I know they gonna listen to this, so I'm not trying to finish it.

They may.

Miss Rockwood, we cook differently.

Let's just put it that way. We cook differently. So, you know, like certain dishes, maybe.

Okay, they had a lot of dishes that we didn't— that we had— I had never eaten stuff like that.

Southern?

Yeah, yeah.

Okay.

Yeah, ours is, you know, cornbread, macaroni and cheese, turkey, ham. Like variety corn, a bunch of other stuff. They had green beans, mashed potatoes. Exactly. Stuffing, bread stuffing, bread stuffing. I didn't even— so I'm interested. I did not know that, and it was the first time we had ever had that. That's ours.

That's ours.

Um, no, I bet they didn't have sweet potato casserole.

Nope.

They had rolls.

They had rolls.

Okay, so yeah, I, I, I can imagine, but they can cook.

It's not bad.

No, they can cook delicious. Yeah, it was really good.

The way it sounded, I'm thinking they're like microwaving some mac and cheese for you or something.

No, no, no, it was— I think the biggest difference, the biggest difference was they were just— it was like another dinner to them.

Oh, okay.

It was like another meal.

Like, we're just gonna sit down and eat.

And like, for us, it was like, it's an experience. It's a big—

it's an experience. It's hours. Yeah, like, it's literally hours. Thanksgiving.

Oh yeah, I know, it's like I'm prepping 2 days before.

It's insanity.

Yeah, yeah.

And then we eat for—

I think that varies from family to family.

I think it does.

I think family to family.

And some of the dishes that we serve is also just, you know, yeah, it's like a staple, right?

I mean, like, mine's sweet potato casserole, but we do not use marshmallows, which Justin's family does. Justin's family used to do marshmallows.

That's a big deal. And then she don't want to do marshmallows. She wants—

so we do the pecan crust.

Trust me, Aunt Flossie, would you do two different ones? No.

Oh, we just— he's come over to my side.

Oh yeah, exactly.

And like cornbread stuffing?

We do cornbread stuffing.

Okay, we do not do bread stuffing. I'm very against bread stuffing. I don't know why, I just, I just don't enjoy it.

Paige did things different too. That was an experience. I mean, all of them. So I mean, yeah, it was an experience.

Now, now you guys are farmers. But like we said earlier, well, you said black people don't camp. I was saying, well, there's not too many farming.

Yeah, yeah.

Uh, so how in the world?

Because it doesn't sound like you came from farm backgrounds, number one.

We didn't.

No, no, no.

Uh, well, and they were in the military.

Yeah, you were in the military. So how in the world?

Now are you—

now y'all are market farmers. So I'm seeing a divergence there.

Yeah.

I don't know necessarily it wasn't one. What was the point? What was the pain? Was it a pain point that launched this radically different path?

Yeah.

Yeah. Yeah.

There was a pain point for sure.

The pain point was I got sick. I was getting— we were now looking back, we were getting sick. Congestion. It first started with stomach issues with me. With traveling and stuff. Like, I was traveling a lot. I thought that it was because of the countries that I was going to, and the military was just like, you know, just, you know, take this stuff and, you know, take these things and you'll be fine. Like, it's just your stomach is going to be an issue. Until I went to— it was my first trip to South America, and I was there for 6 months, and I didn't get sick. I didn't get sick at all. You know, I may have gotten sick from like one thing or whatever, but it was not like— it wasn't the stuff that I was— yeah, it wasn't congestion or anything. Like, it wasn't— I wasn't congested. I wasn't— my bowels were like— I didn't have any issues for the most part. And then I came home and it started again, and it was like, what? And the only difference was when I was in South America, I wasn't eating any dairy. There was no dairy, so dairy was considered unsafe. So don't, you know, you don't eat any because it's right, that's the only way you can—

South America. Exactly. And people are so afraid, right, right.

Don't, don't, don't, don't, don't eat any dairy. And I was like, okay, well, I wasn't eating any dairy. They were, you know, people there were eating it, but the, you know, they told us not to mess with it, so we did. My, my, my, my doc was like, hey, just stay away from these things. and I did, and I was like, man, but that's still weird because I still ate a little bit of dairy and then I felt fine. So what is it that was making me sick? Well, in South America, all the food that I was eating was grown in my environment. I traveled a lot throughout South America, but for the most part, even in the cities that I lived in, we had access to They were like, if we— I told Paige we had a cook, and the cook, what she— she's a chef. She didn't go to school. She was a cook for our neighborhood, I would say. And every morning we would go out, breakfast, lunch, and dinner, one lady. She had a group of kids that would help her, but for the most part, you go over there, she goes to the market in the morning or whatever she brings in. And that's what we're eating for breakfast, lunch, and dinner. So if she didn't grow it, if we didn't have access to it, if it wasn't there locally, because a lot of the stuff you either had to wait for it to come in on a ship. The ships with the part of Colombia that I was living in, the ships were getting over— they didn't want to come because of pirates or they didn't want to come because of weather issues and stuff like that. So it was like, we're on this island. You know, you, whatever you have is what you eat. So the food that I was eating there was really, really good. There wasn't a whole lot of inputs, like they were growing in their backyards. You know, everything was just very, very intentional. If I ate something, I knew where it came from, you know, where it was processed and all, like we traced everything. And then I came back home and I started back eating ice cream and eating the usual stuff. I started— it started again. And sure enough, Paige had— Paige was like, hey, there's a pill that you can take for the congestion. Suppose there's a supplement that you can take where you won't get as congested. And, and I was like, I'm not taking a supplement for that. I'm not gonna do that. I'm not gonna do that. I don't like taking meds. I'm not gonna do it. But then that got me thinking, why would somebody create a supplement? Why would there be a supplement to counter congestion. Like, that doesn't make any sense. Yeah, and inflammation and inflammation and some other stuff. Um, and like bowel digestive issues, gut issues.

People don't want to stop eating ice cream.

Exactly right. And I was like, well, I'm gonna eat ice cream. I work out really hard. I'm gonna eat ice cream. My docs were saying, you know, my— these people, like my physician and my, uh, performance coach was like, you know, I, I would always be like— they'd be like, what is your diet? This is my diet. And when you eat ice cream every night, I was like, yeah, okay, well, you work out, you do these things. As long as you continue to do this, you should be fine. Like, it wasn't an issue. My nutritionist said the same things, like, you know, you're okay because you only eat ice cream. It's not like you're drinking milk in the morning and you're just drinking a bunch or eating cheese. And so they were, they were just like, you know, it's just, it's just deal with it, right? It's okay. And, and after, you know, Paige told me about supplement, we started looking, or Paige started looking into it.

More.

And, uh, and some kind of way it led us to the Netflix documentary. Um, and then the Netflix documentary just opened our eyes to like—

which Netflix documentary?

It was, uh, Food Inc. was the first one. And it was like, it was the first time we had been, you know, exposed to— maybe this is where food comes from. You know, before, I didn't grow up on a farm. We weren't exposed to it. We didn't— we just went to the grocery store, got we needed. That was it. After watching that, we were just like, you know, upset, you know, just, I don't know. For me, it was just like, I live in America and you telling me that these people have been making these choices for me. I knew nothing about this. This is my own fault. And I was like, okay, well, what's the fix? It is organic. So we started, which we started like trying to buy, you know, as much as we could that was organic. And then we saw another documentary, Sustainer, Sustainer, sustainable, sustainability, and he's talking about labeling and all this stuff, and it was just like, we can't even trust the label, right? And so yeah, so at this point we just feeling, you know, just feeling lost. Yep, so we're gonna get it from a farmer. That's the answer. Stop going to the grocery store, go to a farm. We started looking for farmers, found a farmers market. The city that we live in, Fayetteville, there's one farmers market, and it was mostly, you know, they had two vendors. I think they had a fish vendor and— or protein, uh, fish and chicken. So we started buying our chicken. We're buying it from him, pasture-raised, like legit. We tried to buy a cow, looked around for these farms, a whole cow. We go out to look at the farm and it's grass-fed cow— I mean, grass-fed beef is what the marketing said. Everybody, oh, that's where you get your cows. We'll go get your cows from. We're like, we're going out there, right? We're gonna take a family trip and we go out to the farm. and we get out there. And first of all, he told us, he was like, well, I'm only going to be there for these amount of hours. That was the first red flag. I'm only there 2 hours a day. And I was like, oh, that's interesting. Okay. So we go out there and we're looking around, we see these cows. And I was like, is there more? Ignorant. I didn't know nothing about how much pasture is needed for whatever. But I did know that there was no there was no way that he had enough grass for those cows. There was no way.

It was like, I don't know anything, but I know this is not right.

Do you own— is that your property over there? He's like, no, that's another farm. I was like, I want to go back from that then. He kept trying to— he was like, well, and then he started to tell us about his methods, or he just kind of diverged from me. He was like, well, you know, majority of the time they're their own pasture, their own pasture. And then I give them this supplement, or what did he say? I give them this something. It was grain. It was, uh, it was grain. Uh, I don't remember what he was giving them, but it was grain. I remember being like— he was like, but it's the best of it out there, you know. It was just kind of like, okay, cool. It's like, well, I got this new farmhouse over here and these are different cut sheets. And I was like, no, he just seemed very like He just talked a lot and it wasn't about farming. It was about processes of, you know, the actual transaction. And, and yeah, it was just like, you know, I took the cut sheet and I think I took the cut sheet.

Yeah. I was like, are we going to buy like a steak or something?

Oh yeah. Paige was like, we should buy something. We came all the way out here.

We should buy like something. And he's like, no.

Are you figuring it out like he was? No.

Or were you just being nice?

I was being nice. I was like, I mean, we just drove all this way.

Yeah, it was a drive. It was.

You weren't having the same, oh no, type of, you know.

I mean, I was just like, I don't know, we should be nice. We drove all the way out here. This man keeps talking.

Yeah, Paige was like, I think hers was more like, I'm not gonna say it, it was more like pity. Like, it was. And I mean, it was more like pity, and I felt like I didn't feel pity. I felt lied to, and it was just like, you're trying to deceive me. Like, you, you know, he knows grass-fed. Exactly. Or he wouldn't have, he wouldn't have said majority of the time they're, you know, they're eating grass. But, you know, like, he said all the right things. It was like, and now, now that I, you know, now looking back, I know that he was, he said all the right things. But at the time, I was like, But I know this is— I guess this is one of the good things, benefits of not being, you know, growing up in agriculture. If it says grass-fed, I'm thinking that it only eats grass. That's what I'm— that's my assumption, even if I don't know anything about it. If you tell me that it's grass-fed, I'm gonna think that he only eats grass. That's what I would think because You know, that's, that's just me. That was my— I was like, well, that doesn't seem— but you're selling it as grass-fed. Why don't you just say it was pasture-raised?

Like, you gotta ask, you gotta ask that next question because it's a market.

Exactly. That's what it was.

But it's the— is it finished on grass though? That's like a key. I wasn't—

I wasn't much.

And if you don't, then they're like, all of that was—

and that's what I think. Most people are like you.

They're falling for the trap. They, they help.

They're not volunteering. Information.

Like, oh, by the way, I finished them on corn the last 100 days.

Oh yeah, it's like a don't ask, don't tell. Yeah, most of the time it's like they're on grass, we feed them grass.

Yeah, but, but they also get this grain.

Yeah, they get this grain, a little bit of grain, you know, to help them, like, to get them— like, he would— he made it— he said all the right things. And then that was like, we left there, I just had this feeling of just like, I don't know what he said, or it's just— it just wasn't right, like, about if I invest this amount of money in a— in a— in— I mean, this was an investment. We were talking— we were about to spend, you know, $2,200 to $2,600. Uh, it was a good amount of money.

He's selling it at 100% grass-fed price.

Yep.

Right.

But it wasn't—

it was not.

No, no.

Okay, so you were gonna buy a whole cow process?

Yeah.

Okay. Yeah, yeah, that's right.

Yeah, yeah. And it— yeah, so I was just like, I don't We're going to stay with our chicken. And that's what we did. We just kept eating chicken. We kept eating chicken. At the time we were eating a lot of fish. And then our chicken farmer, the chicken farmer ran out of chicken. And I remember, you know, I think we were about to go out of town and we were trying to get enough so that we could— we were like, okay, well, we need to get enough so when we come back we'll have— and sure enough, he was like, you know, we're out and it's going to be, you know, 4 weeks or something. I'm gonna be like, what? What do we do for 4 weeks? What are we supposed to do? You're the farmer. Like, you know, so it was like, that was the— I go home frustrated. Yes. You— this— you're, you're a poultry farmer. Like, how do you make a— and that was— that led me to the thing of how you make a living if you— like, what happens when you run out of chicken? And I, like, I remember thinking that, like, how in the world is he— like, what does he do when he run out of chicken? What are you gonna do? Like, if that's your job, like, if this is all you do, YouTube, but it wasn't, it wasn't all he did. He had another job, uh, he, you know, this is just his, his side thing. And I was like, at the time I didn't know, and which is, I don't care. I mean, as long as you produce a product, you know, the right way to our standards, then. But he ran out, and I remember being like, he didn't, he didn't offer up any suggestions. He was just like, we're out. Like, what, what do we do? Like, you know, we feel helpless. Like, I feel helpless. I was like, well, where am I supposed to go? We looked we looked around a lot of places to go. We were going to make a few, a few hour drives to go get more food. And I looked, I started doing a little bit more research. I'm like, you know, pasture poultry, how do you do this? And I'm reading at this time. I'm like, you're still in the military, active duty. Okay, still active duty. One of the reasons why I think I was more frustrated than anything else was because we were on a schedule. We had a schedule. We have soccer in the morning. We leave, we're— I'm rushing people, you know, to get off the soccer field, to get in the car, to go to the farmer's market, to get the meat before he leaves. And then I get there and then he's gone. So I remember being like, I just like, I structured my day around, you know, coming to this farmer's market. We didn't eat, you know, words like we had. I mean, we were living, we had adjusted our lives to like, okay, we got 2 chickens. You know, we're gonna cut it in half or any half a chicken or whatever, like, to get to this date.

You were dedicated. Did not go to the grocery store.

Very dedicated to get protein. Yes.

Okay, what was it about that movie that struck such a conviction?

Because I knew— because everything I had seen it already. I just— so I see traveling other countries, you see it, but you don't really know. You don't get— you look at them in pity and you're like Oh, look, you know, they don't, they don't have this, or they don't have the grocery stores, they run out of meat. Like, if you go to the grocery store in, uh, in certain parts of South America, if you go on a Saturday, Saturday evening, you're not going to get any meat. Everything that's left over is everything that nobody wants, which you probably shouldn't take. Um, like, it's— they run out. What they have in the early morning is the freshest, and what's left over at the end of the day is— because refrigeration is the issue.

Yeah, right.

So, um, So, you know, being there, you're just like, this is— they process as they need them. Like, they're processing right now the week, you know, you get it first thing in the morning because it was processed last night, you know.

So when you were eating this farm chicken, were your digestive issues— they had gone away then?

They had.

Okay.

Yeah. So is that why you're so committed? Maybe.

Yeah, it's not just the movie.

Yeah, it wasn't just the movie.

Oh wait, I got this launching pad from this movie now I feel better.

I do feel better. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. It wasn't 100%, but so we— I wasn't feeling better yet. We could taste the difference in the meat, right? We could taste this is different. This was different. Like, this tastes different. Like, at the time, I didn't know that I was feeling— I didn't know that yet. Uh, I wasn't— it wasn't 100%, um, The— I think the thing that changed it was we— the dairy is what we started researching more about dairy, and then we started learning about cows, and then we started learning about all the— like, it wasn't the dairy was what kind of pushed us towards— it's like, okay, well, dairy is a big issue. I'm not willing to give it up yet, so I'm gonna— we're gonna eat healthier proteins. We're gonna eat more protein, like, we're gonna eat healthy proteins. And sure enough, that was what we did. We didn't— we weren't drinking. My mom drank a lot of milk. We didn't drink milk like that. We were— we stopped drinking milk like we were before. We weren't really big milk eaters or drinkers. But that was the— at this time we were researching all this stuff and I'm like into it when I'm not at work. When I'm at work, it's on my phone. Like, I'm— we're just reading about these— the system. Um, but then the, the, the, the video— the video broke it because the video showed us that our system was broken and not the other way. Not the other way. The way that I was eating in South America was the way to eat, right? Because the farmer was, was also the chef. Like, yeah, she's cooking and she knows that whatever she gives or whatever she puts on this soil whatever she puts on here, whatever she gives this animal is what we're gonna eat. Like, she knows this, um, so she's, I guess, less prone. And because they didn't have access to those other things.

Yeah, so that was one thing when we lived in Honduras. We were there for 3 months, and, um, Justin pointed out, he's like, these people can't afford to go buy the fertilizers and the pesticides and stuff. They're it's about as organic as you can get.

Exactly.

Because of the supply issue.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

And the other thing is, is she's— if she doesn't grow it and harvesting it herself, your chef lady in South America, then she's going to the market, and that was— that's super fresh. So you're eating like all fresh.

Yeah, yeah, everything. Yeah, yeah.

So what are you eating now that the chicken's gone?

Um, so listen, that's why I was frustrated when we left the beef man, because I was like, What are we gonna eat?

What do we— we are cooking.

What was your answer to that?

Derek tried to act like he was—

I bet you had to just turn around. Yeah, but you didn't buy any beef. We didn't buy any beef. No, no, no. Are you getting hot at this point? Oh no, we found it. We found another farm. We found it. No, we— pork. Oh, we found pork. We found a pork farmer.

So we get your pork.

We only eat chicken.

Now you're only eating pork.

Yeah, we found a pork farmer.

I was really irritated though.

Yeah, because that's hard to come up with like a lot of dishes from like Poland, like chicken.

Yeah, tired of chicken. Right, you know, but we found pork.

Yeah, we found pork and we went like, yeah, we found pork and that was the like, oh man, he has pork. And then we started eating more pork. And then he started having a few chicken. I think we got a few from him. But at that point, it was like, it all happened. This all happened within like 30 days. It was like chicken farmer ran out. We found a pork farmer. We went to, you know, beef was a failure. I found a YouTube video. I found the Justin Rhodes Show. I saw— I didn't— I don't even remember what I was looking up. Pasture poultry. That's what I was— I was like, pasture— how do I do this on my own? Or how do I get it? Why did this dude run out is what I was trying to figure out. Yeah, how did a chicken farmer run out? That was what led me—

trying to find out how to do it on your own? No, you were trying to find out how he ran out.

How he ran out.

Like, what's— what's the issue?

Yes, that's what I do. I was a problem solver in the military. You saw problems. So your video, I was looking at Pastor Poultry or something, I was looking at Pastor Poultry and I don't remember exactly. There's 3 things that I saw multiple times. One was the someone left there, and I didn't know that they were all together. Someone, a man left his job. A man left his job who's known today. Well, a man left his job and is now farming full-time.

You can say who it is.

I saw that. I don't remember. I don't remember. It was on your channel.

It was Paul Greer.

It was Paul Greer.

Yeah.

Primal Pastures.

Normal guy quits his job and farms or something.

That was it. And I remember seeing that viral video and being like, I saw it. I was like, man, that's really cool. And he said it resonated with it because at the time I was also contemplating a transition.

Did you feel like a normal guy at the time too?

I felt more normal after I saw his video because his job and my job were the same. We just worked for two different people.

Okay.

So that made me feel like, wait a minute, that's interesting. Why would he leave to go do that? Because I was considering making the leap.

Of leaving and starting farm.

And no, leaving the military just to get out. Oh, and, and I was at the time, I was just trying to figure out what I was going to do next. Farming was not on the map. It was all right, what I was going to do afterwards.

I saw that video and I was like, why, why was farming not on the map? Because you just never thought about it.

Wants to be a farmer. Yeah, you know, like, it is, it's a very negative—

bad things about it.

Exactly. That was like It was— I didn't look down on them. I didn't know any. The ones that I did know, they ran out. And the chicken guy who wasn't the real farmer, right? Because he ran out of chicken. He was real. He was like, he was a good farmer. He's a good man. Just hard times. But yeah, it wasn't on the map. I wasn't looking for a career. I was looking for chicken. And I saw that video. Write it down, folks. That's the quote. That's the quote of the show. That's the t-shirt. And his story was like, I— he said it, he said, I was feeling, you know, doing this stuff and I was feeling— I just, I got sick. Yeah, his was from Lyme, but still it was like—

wait, they might be talking about somebody else.

No, we're talking about Paul Greaves. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So Paul Greaves got— he got— he, he got Lyme disease when he was in— he got, he got Lyme disease when he was in sniper school. Oh yeah, yeah.

So he knows this because he's studied it more than we have.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. But at the, at the time, there was no connection.

Okay, he did have like— he had skin issues.

Exactly, that was what— yeah, he didn't know at the time that this was going to help him with his— yeah, yeah. Okay, so, um, so in the video, the video, it was like, wait a minute, Uh, you know, issues with like health issues. He didn't— there wasn't no Lyme because Lyme, I wouldn't even know. I was like, that wouldn't make no sense to me. Um, but I was like, man, he gets— huh, that's interesting. I'm sick, you know, doing the same thing. You know, there is something to this pasture poultry thing. I'm not trying to farm yet, I just want chicken. How do I figure this out? He said he started with 50 chickens, and I remember watching that video. I never watched it again. And then I watched another video of, um The next video was— at this point, the Justin Rhodes Show was now on YouTube, and I was never on YouTube. I didn't watch— I have a reason to watch YouTube at the time. And, um, and sure enough, I started— I Googled another— I Googled Pastor Poultry, and then Joel Salath and one of his videos came up. And, uh, and he's talking about, you know, about everything that I have heard and seen in these things is just like, you know, 'in order for this to change, you know, you know, you can do this on your own.' Like, it's just— I heard those words, and, um, and, uh, you know, I don't remember, I hadn't read any of his books yet, and he sends, um— I'm on there trying to figure out how can I— can I do this myself? Can I do this? Joe Soden said that you could in that video, so I started thinking about this. Joe Soden said that you can do this.

You can do it.

He said you can do it.

What's the title of the book?

Sent the video. You Can Farm. Yeah, yeah, I hadn't read it yet. I sent the video of the guy, of Paul Gries, to Paige, and two nights— I saw it one night, the next night, that day I went to work and I was thinking about it, I was like, how can I do this? I ordered Joe's book, Pasture Poultry Prophets. It didn't come in yet. It hadn't come in. I had to wait for it, and it didn't come in. So, you know, just to learn more about pasture poultry, saw the video. I watched your video. You put out another video about homesteading. I can't remember the exact videos, but— and it was just you on the farm. And I remember I just kept hearing this over and over, you know, 'Can you do this? Do you think you can do this? You can do this. Like, you don't think that you can? You can.' I, I remember the video, but I remember you saying that, um, and I remember it just played over in my head. I was like, you know what, okay. I watched another Joe Solomon video, and in this video he says, he says, 'You're probably thinking— if you're thinking about farming, one of the reasons that will keep you from doing it is your friends are gonna think you're crazy.' The law is they're going to tell you that you can't do it, which I had already saw that they said I couldn't do it. They said, no, you can't raise— you live in a house in the city. You don't have a backyard. We lived in a very, very high-end subdivision with no fencing. So it's a big deal. So people, they pay attention to things out there. The lawn has to be a certain—

they do.

They pay attention. They pay attention, right? Houses don't— you don't sell houses there. You recommend people to move in there. So we got into this neighborhood. So you can't— it's a big deal. My neighbor, rooster or hens, started— he came by the house and said that he was going to be building— we paid no attention to this guy— that he's going to be building a coop and he's going to have some hens. And if they come on our property, they belong to him. There will be eggs, and if we want to, we can have them. And I remember We're just like, dude, we got soccer practice, ballet. I'm out of town multiple times a week. I'm just trying to cut my grass, get things right.

I need some chicken.

Right? I'm thinking about chicken. I'm thinking about chicken. I'm reading these books, reading this stuff, and I see these hens in my front yard. And I remember being like, if they got hens, I can raise chickens. Joel Sartis said— Just order the chickens. Yeah, just do it. Like, the only thing keeping you from doing it is like just doing it. And I remember like, okay. And that night I watched that video again. I was like, man, he, you know, Paul said that he did 50. They put him in the backyard. We don't have a backyard. We can figure it out. I ordered them. I ordered 25 chickens and then told— yeah, because this is like at midnight. Like, I've been there trying to At least you didn't wake her up. No, I ordered the chicks. I ordered the chicks, closed the computer, and went to sleep. And a part of me was like, when I woke up the next morning, I was like, I'm hoping that I'm gonna get an email that says that, you know, you can't— like, what are you doing? You can't order chickens in the mail. I don't even know how this works.

You can't order chickens in the mail.

We lied, right? No, I got scammed. Yeah, yeah, I was hoping that I was like, you know, because if it ain't, I gotta tell Paige I ordered chicken. It's like, I go to work, right? I could have, but how do you— but do you— how do you— can't— but see, I was thinking about that.

You can't cancel if it's a scam.

I was thinking about how do you— so at that point I had gotten a confirmation. I was like, they sent me an email from the hatchery and they were like, the chicks are, you know, whatever. And at that point I was like, if I cancel So what happens to the chicks? Like, they kill them, right? They're gonna call or something and say like, these are yours. You know, we've only ever had the police. They're gonna call the police on you. Exactly. Here comes the animal police. We've only ever had a dog, so it was like, I don't know. Like, at that point— so good, man. At that point, I told Paige And what did you say?

I don't remember what my exact—

it was a text message.

Yeah, he sent me like a picture of the receipt and I was like, what is this? And he was like, well, uh, it's a receipt. And I was like, uh, I ordered some chickens. And I was like, are you serious? Like, it was just kind of like, what?

Some babies, some chicks.

This is the part of the story that we don't— we've never— I don't think we've talked about this, but like, I— so where Derek says he's a problem solver, like, I too am a problem solver. Yeah. So where Derek was just like, well, I'm about to do this thing, I was like, well, okay, but we, we kind of need land. Like, I don't know.

So you're the practical—

we just, we just learned something recently. I'm, I'm a problem— I'm a, I'm a problem solver for other people's issues. Yes, I'm a visionary. I come up with really good ideas. But my own way of going into farm consulting.

Exactly.

Yes, we just figured that out. Like, I was like 2 months or 2 weeks ago, I was like, you don't need to be farming. Whoa. Yes, yes, yes, yes, yes.

And I am the one who's internal, like, okay, so you want to do this thing. This is what we need to do.

Paige was like, all these other things, and I didn't have an answer for any of it yet. It was just like, figure it out as you go. Like, you can do this. And that's what we did. Joel said it, right? And at this point, I'm like, everything farming at this— I'm— and everything else is cut off. Everything farm. I'm reading about just everything and everything you think about. So I got a book, built a chicken tractor in the yard, um, you know, we built it in the yard.

Sure, we thought we were gonna be like— so we found someone with land. Oh yeah, like I said, yeah, we can't raise these chickens in this neighborhood. Like, we're gonna go—

why were you okay with just going up and then leaving this neighborhood and go and get some land?

Well, oh, she was just okay with us staying in our house.

But I'm, I'm just thinking, we've got 25 chickens coming. I don't know when. We don't have—

when—

I didn't even look.

We do even have enough space to do this because we didn't have a backyard. We had like a really big front yard and like a side piece. So it was like a driveway that was open, but it wasn't— so we didn't have any type of real—

we realized that we didn't have— we realized that we didn't have enough after we had ordered the chicks, because I started learning these things afterwards.

I was like, the chicks, and then you're learning.

Yes, I'm learning. Yeah, yeah. I'm like, okay, what do I need? You know, I need a fence. I saw one of yours, you had a, uh, the, uh, the electric netting.

Yeah, yeah.

I was like, I don't have time. This is, this is how this happened. The chicks came faster, way faster than I thought. They came and it was like I'm at work, or he told me they were gonna come after I had the baby. I wasn't ready, we weren't ready, we were not ready. She was pregnant.

I was pregnant, like, like at the— this is like last trimester.

Yeah, she was. Yeah, yeah, so 2 months.

She was—

she had the baby the week before we processed, so it was 2 weeks.

Yeah, well, yeah, we did because she's like 30.

1 week's pregnant.

Yes. And we got chickens coming. We don't have a fence. We have a dog. We have no idea what we're doing. I just, I started watching a bunch of your videos and I saw that I bought— I was like, you know what? I told Paige, because we had— we got the land, had the land cleared, right?

It was a friend from church. Like, they had some property they weren't using.

Yeah, we got the land.

So we had— we got it cleared, and then we had— I had the baby.

And we didn't have time. I didn't have time to— I built a chicken tractor. All these issues came up. Everything— there was a plan. The plan was we were gonna, we were gonna raise the chickens at the house in the brooder. After, when they brood, when they were done brooding, we were gonna take them over to the new house, put them on, put them in the tractor over there at the land over there. Well, Paige had the baby. Well, Paige started getting closer and we were like, okay, well, and I finished the chicken tractor. And at this point, like, I was like, the chicks need to get out of the brooder. They were like at 2 weeks and they were getting big. And I was like, we can't wait. So I ordered the net.

Wait, wait, I have to interject here. So Derek is out there building this chicken tractor and he built it in like 2 days.

Yeah.

And my mom came down because she was like, you know, well, she thought like I was getting ready to have the baby. So she, she was like, man, Derek is working really hard to build that tractor. It's like, I don't know what he's doing, but he's just out there working.

I'm working during the daytime. And then I come home and all the time I have is from 5 to—

he was just trying to get that thing.

I go to sleep.

Speaking of parents, that at this point, are they— you said the friends will think you're crazy.

They did.

Oh yeah, yeah, yeah.

She think you were nuts.

She was like, what are y'all doing?

Just buy some chicken at the grocery store.

That stuff doesn't matter.

My mom, my mom is really fun though. She was like, this is so fun. Yeah, but it is crazy.

So this, this wouldn't be the first thing that they realized. We have a— this is like, this is a pattern. Now remember, this is a pattern. So at this point, they, they know who we are. If, if I say that I'm gonna do something, like, I'm gonna do it. We say we're gonna do it, we're doing it. So not waiting nice for permission, you know, hence we got married, nobody knew. Like, these are things we're going— we're just doing what we feel like we need to do. Not surprised. It's just like, this is a pattern. This is a pattern.

I mean, they're surprised that we chose to farm.

Yeah, yeah, that's a surprise.

Yeah, we're not surprised that you guys are going off the rails.

No.

Oh yeah, no, no, because you've already went off the rails.

You went to the military.

She left college. She, she walked away from college to get married. She didn't say that, but that's like, we got married, I proposed, and then I was gonna deploy.

I'm not thrilled with that.

It's hard to be. I mean, we moved like 3 times and she had to transfer, and it, it became extremely difficult. Like, I mean, it was just— okay, she was trying to be a good wife, and to a husband that was, you know, working all the time, trying to get in school and run it, like, trying to find a house, like, it was crazy. Like, it was just a lot. And I remember being like, you don't have to do any of this. Like, you can, you know, do whatever you want to do. You want to go to school, go to school. Like, I want you to go to If you don't want to school, don't go to school. Like, just, I want you to, you know, be happy because I've made you— I mean, I've, I put you in a position where you've had to like choose. And, you know, having a deployed spouse, you know, is not an easy thing in a wartime environment. So what's your sister saying at this point? My sister? I didn't tell anybody. I wasn't telling anybody.

People knew to the house.

What do they say when they come to the house?

I tell my family stuff though.

Or now?

No, no, not now. When your friends and family come to the house, that's the only time you tell them anything. What, what did they say? This chicken tractor?

Oh yeah, yeah.

I was like, so that was—

we've got chickens.

Yeah, yeah, that was the market research. That was our market research.

It really was our market research though.

It was. So the, the, the chicken tractor— and this is like, I know a lot of people like are like, how do you get started? So the chicken So we built a chicken tractor and it was beautiful. It was nice. The kids and I did together during this time. I'm working with the kids and we're like, we have baby chicks at the house and it's just, I'm learning animal husbandry and I'm discovering something that I'm at the time I knew nothing about what was happening. I'm working with my kids now. I'm always gone. So the only time that we work together is maybe if we go to a park and we play on a Saturday or on a Sunday after church. But outside of that, it's always business. Like business, church, school. We're always doing something. So this was soccer practice. We're always doing something but not really just us. And at this point we were like just out here doing stuff, like building. What are you building? I don't know, we're trying to make a chicken tractor. And the kids are super excited. There's chicks in here and they're just— I'm seeing them, you know, and it's just like, man, this is amazing. Like, this is— I don't know why I'm so attracted to this. And it wasn't at this point, it wasn't just about the chickens. It's like I'm building things with my hand and I had never built anything before. And then I built, I finished the chicken tractor. Paige was asleep.

I remember.

I remember then I come upstairs and then I think Paige made a big deal about it. I heard her say something and she was like, or maybe it was to her mom and she's like, he worked really hard on doing that. And I remember being like, you know, my— I work really hard and they never see it. They never see the work that I do.

Wow. So because you're not even in the same town.

No, you're doing like— they occasionally, they'll come see me jump out of an airplane, but other than that, like, they don't see me. Like airplanes? Yeah, when I was in the military. Yeah, yeah.

And you were working hard, but they never saw—

they never saw a part of it.

They weren't a part of it. Yeah, yeah. So And I never understood, like, why don't y'all get out working? In my head, I'm like, I work anyway. So, but they never saw it. And then that was the first time I had ever heard it and her see my work. And I saw her and I remember being like, I work, like, I can do, like, I work hard. I remember being like, but they don't see it. So, and that was like when I was, that's when I started thinking more like, that's when the seed was planted. Cause I was, I knew that I wanted to leave the military, but I didn't know what for. Or what I was going to do. And so after— chicken tractor was too big for us to move to the property. I didn't have a way of moving it.

We didn't have a way of moving it.

I couldn't move it.

Like, it was too big. We paid to have this land cleared.

We got livestock over there.

We cannot even get the chicken tractor over there.

None of my friends have trailers. They don't have trucks.

Like, you were talking about it. I was like, wondering, how are they going to get it over there? Yeah, that was one of my thoughts.

Didn't move it. I was like, At the time, I didn't even have a truck. I didn't even have a truck at the time, so we couldn't even—

I was like, that's your boyfriend, he didn't have a truck.

I did not have a truck. We were using— I think I had a, I had a, I had a little sports car, like a little— it was a little, little tiny wagon. And, uh, and Paige had a— Paige had an SUV, but still was like, well, I don't— whatever. And then, and then I thought about it as we were driving over there one day for me to like make a YouTube. I was like, okay, I'm gonna I'm gonna do some content. Drive over to the property. We still have this content we never posted.

We've got a lot of content.

We drive over there, and as I'm driving there, I was like, wait a second, I gotta— that means I gotta drive over multiple times a day. Like, I got a newborn at home, kids. I was like, this is— I went back to— I was like, Paige, these chickens gotta stay at the house.

And I was like, are you sure?

I wrapped that chicken tractor in plastic. One, to keep it insulated, son, because it was at this point it was getting cold. I wrapped it in plastic, put a tarp over it, you know, put it in the front yard, and people thought that it was a greenhouse.

And I was like, okay, Christmas time, Derek put a wreath on top of it because I put a wreath on top of it. Derek was like, well, I put a wreath on top of it to be festive, so maybe my neighbors—

Yeah, people won't really, you know, our neighbors didn't say anything. No issues. People started coming over. Her mom saw it. They started asking questions. We're talking about it. Friends from church and kids from school. And the kids at this point are talking about it. Everybody's super excited. And at school, the school is talking about it. They're pulling us aside. Y'all raising chickens in your neighborhood? Like, you know, I told him, the headmaster of the school like pulled me aside one day and he was like, so there's these stories, and I was like, oh no. Like, the other— the last time we had this conversation was because there was a bullet shell that— it was just a shell that fell out of one of my uniforms, and one of the kids took it to school. It was just a shell, nothing.

Yeah.

And, you know, of course the school was just like, hey, you know, it's just a conversation, whatever, right? Like, this is— we understand all of y'all, like, right, you know, we understand. So when he said this, he's like, but these y'all, he said, are we hearing these things about chickens? And we just, I was like, no, this is real. Like, it's a real thing. We have real chickens. And, uh, like at our house. And he was like, okay, I just wanted to make sure that we were just like, yeah, like, yeah, the kids are not thinking of stories. Yeah, they keep coming up with stories. And the school got super excited about it. And at this point, like kids, you know, the kids' friends are coming over. And they started asking. A few of our friends from our CrossFit gym were like, we'll buy some of those. I remember being like, what? You can have one. And they were like, no, no, you don't understand. Like, we'll buy those. Like, what you're raising is probably the freshest thing that we could find. And they had serious health issues, like, you know, very, like, very, very, like, life-threatening issues. And so everything that they ate, like, they, it was a big deal. So, and when they said something about, I remember being like, if they think that this, there's something to this, then that was the seed. And I started researching, what people, and they're like, we'll pay, like how much you want? Like, you can take them, like, you know, try, like whatever. Like, and, um, they were willing to pay for them. And I remember thinking about paying the price that we asked. I was like, if we sell it, it's gonna have to It's gonna cost this amount.

But then you started fussing because you were like, you can't keep selling all these chickens because then there's not going to be enough for us.

Yeah, we're gonna have enough. Yeah, she was selling all of them.

Did you save any for yourself?

We did, we did, we did.

What was that like eating that first chicken?

That first chicken— the first chicken that we ate was, um, it was interesting because we harvested them ourselves in our yard out back. Rented equipment, all that stuff. And we ate it the next day. And I remember we sat down and I— we eat at the table. That's the only way we eat. But it was so different sitting down and just— I didn't even want to eat it. I just like just sat there and was just like, man, I don't really care what the bird tastes like. It's just the feeling of like feeling Like, I did this. Now I've fed myself in environments where I didn't have a choice but to eat what I'd like. So I've eaten things and I've cooked for myself, but it ain't the same as like hunting and, you know, preparing something and, you know, raising and harvesting something. It's two different things. And at the time, like, I wasn't even hungry. Like, I don't remember what the bird tastes like, but I just remember I just felt full. Like, it was just— yeah, I don't know. It was, it was, it was what I had heard, and it made sense. And I was like, you know what? I want to do this. I want to do this. I don't know how, but I want to do this. I want this to— I want to keep feeling this. Like, I want to keep doing this. We're going to raise our own birds, you know? This time, like, not for anybody else. We're raising for ourselves. We're raising all our own birds, all our chicken is ours. And then when we had people asking if we were going to sell, that I had already done the numbers. And at that point, the Poultry Profits had come in. I read it and I was like, I can do this. The numbers, I looked at the numbers. People are willing to pay this price for it. We can do it. And we have the, our community's asking us for it. Like, Hey, you know, there's no farmers markets. People need— people want this. Our community wants this. We're gonna do what we wanted. And yeah, so we started looking for land after that. Like, that was— I told Paige, hey, I wanna—

in what year?

I'm gonna do this. 2019.

Did you ever have a moment when you were working with the kids— you talk about working with the kids on the Chick Truck— did you ever have a tearing up moment?

Was it that acute at the, uh, where are you you realized you were working together with your kids and you enjoyed this? The harvest. When we harvest, the day of the harvest, processing day. Tell me about that moment. So while my kids had never seen me work before, they've also never, like, I've never, this is, so this is, this is, so I've eaten, so I've lived in I've had to live off the environment before, and eating something that I found or that, you know, that I've hunted, it— you don't think about it. It's just, I gotta do it because I gotta eat. That's it. But chickens in the chicken tractor, I've raised them, you know, I see them, I've raised them from, you know, little. It's just like, I gotta take these, these out there and I'm gonna kill— like, and I gotta, you know, I gotta take their life, you know, that the taking the life thing was like so hard for me. I was like in my head, like I had been thinking about that for weeks. I'm just like processing day. Like I was actually planning on getting them processed at a facility, but I don't know if you know this, but you cannot get 25 chickens processed and they won't even— they laughed. They actually laughed and they were like, they laughed at me on the phone. They were like, I was like, uh, yeah, no. How many you have? They were like, well, uh, they were like, yeah, we can get you in. I was like, cool, cool, great. And they're like, okay, how many you have? I was like, 25. And she was like, $2,500?

I was like, $25.

And she was like, you need at least $200. And I was like, well, I don't have— I only have $25. And she was like, well, if I had $200, I would, I would bring all of them, right? I would. She was like, well, she was like, ask You know, reach out to the community county extension office, ask some people, they may know somebody that may be able to do it, you know, whatever, you know, they were just like, but unfortunately we don't, like there's some books and stuff. And I was like, books? Like what? I'm not processing it. I was like, okay, yeah, we're gonna do this. And, uh, you had a video and, um, watched that video multiple times, multiple times.

We watched a couple of other videos.

We watched a couple of Joel's videos, but whoever had videos. The kill part was the— was like still like, that was the hardest part. So on the harvest day, um, that was just like, how do I do this? There was just a lot of questions. The kids see it, they see it as a taking of, you know, a life. Some people like, that's, that's what they see it because they don't know any— they don't know any difference. They just see that thing is alive and you're about to kill it. Like, you know, they— there's no connection to All chickens go through this. Like, all the chicken that you eat go through this at some point. They don't know that. But we talked about it from the beginning. Dad talked about this. We're gonna, we're gonna, we're gonna, we're gonna eat these chickens. These are our chickens. I have been talking it, not really understanding the, you know, the depth of it all. And so on the day of, it was just like, okay, we're gonna do this. And, you know, the— it was just I didn't know exactly how to start and what to say, you know, but I knew that I just explained to them, hey, this is going to feed our family. We have no chicken in the refrigerator. I don't know, like, we don't have anything. Yeah, we can go out and purchase this, but we've raised them and they, you know, are now going to feed our family. And we had talked about them. We know we've— they've heard stories through scripture about, you know, you know, things that have a place in life. And chickens, you know, they're for the nourishment of our body. So in order for us to do that, we have to do this. So, and we're gonna do it.

A lot of teaching moments.

It was a whole lot of teaching moments. And, and it was like me teaching because it gave me the confidence to do it. Like, as I'm teaching it, I'm like coaching myself. And, you know, because it's like, and I'm like I've done this before, like, why is this so hard? And sure enough, like, you know, we pray and, you know, we just, we get after it.

And, and Mayer prays.

And Mayer, I have a video of Mayer. Yeah, Mayer.

And Mayer said, he was like, Lord, we just thank you for these chickens and that they're gonna bless our family and fill our tummy. And I remember being like, Yeah, yeah, and it was just really—

and Mayor was— and one of the things that, that we've learned is, is from that is Mayor was praying. He was really praying for those chickens. Like, he was praying for— he was, he was truly praying because he didn't— he hasn't— he didn't accept it. Like, he wasn't okay with us doing what we were doing. Yeah, but He just wasn't. Maxwell was like, Dad said we're gonna do this, we're gonna do it, he's doing it, I'm gonna do it. Like, you know, my dad said we're gonna do this. Mayor was like, I don't— he didn't say he didn't agree with it, but he was like, I just, I'm not, you know, he just wasn't there. But he prayed and he was like, but I know that we gotta eat.

So like, it was really—

and here's your second son. Yeah, your second oldest.

Yeah, yeah.

How did you guys go from friends interested to buying this thing to now you are full-time farmers.

Yep.

So that was, uh, that was business.

Yep, business. That was straight business.

That's straight business.

It was straight business.

Um, yeah, so, you know, Derek talked about like making the decision, um, to get out. And that was a really big decision because we, we left a lot of comfort and security and like knowing we're gonna get paid on this time, this time. Holidays, you don't gotta work. Oh, but you're gonna be gone, you know what I'm saying? So it's like we had— and we use this phrase that we, we became comfortable with being uncomfortable. And I mean, just in the fact that, you know, because he was— we had adjusted to our life being a certain way, so we knew that to make the decision, um, for Derek to—

we were very, very comfortable. We had worked very, very hard up until that point.

Oh yeah, for sure.

For, I mean, so just imagine in your career you finally getting to the point where you're like, I made it. Like, we had made it.

I mean, I don't know if I'd say we'd made it.

No, I mean, from a career-wise, for you, in my career, I was like at the—

yeah, Derek was—

you've arrived and now you can start seeing the fruits of your, you know, your labor.

He was at the point where it's like, no more trying to prove yourself, you're gonna be a lifer. They use that term in the military, like you're in for life. And there's a lot of really weird things that happen, like, up into that point, because when we made the decision to get out, they made him, like, sign a contract or something.

I had just been put on orders to take, uh, to, to take a team to, uh, Peru.

Yeah.

And Paige had just had a baby.

Yep.

And yeah, yeah, so Paige had just had a baby. My mom was living with us. My mom at this time was, uh, she had— she was a multiple stroke victim. Um, so she's living with us now, you know, we're taking care of her. And it was like, not only do I have these kids, you know, my kids, the house and whatever, um, and, and now my mom. And, you know, just having a mom— and I'm sure y'all understand this— having, having that responsibility You know, it changes. That's a transition for your marriage. Yeah, you know, so it's like you're bringing in a grown person. That's also your mom, who is influential in the whole, like, relationship. I think for men, it's a really big deal because it's your mom and your wife. Like, yeah, it's just— I do— I mean, I've seen the, the, the benefits of us separating when we got married. Like, like, we needed to do that. as we develop. But, and it was just like, I don't— like, there was no peace with this. It's like, I gotta— you're telling me I gotta go, I gotta leave again. My mom is sick, you know. My mom— my wife is taking care of my mom, you know. I have kids. Like, it's just the kids are getting older. The kids weren't like— they were good, and Payson had figured out how to, how to, how to work, how to be single. She figured out how to be a single parent. and she was doing, from my perspective, she was doing a really good job at it. And it was like, so I had gotten comfortable with that, but I had gotten comfortable with Paige being uncomfortable. So, and while I'm seeing this strength, she's seeing, you know, you know, I don't like this. Isn't— and I know, you know, as I'm starting to learn this, I'm like, this isn't right. Like, my wife is a single— she's a single parent because I'm not here.

But we understood that, getting back to your question, just about just like the business side of things. Like if, if we were going to make this decision to make this full-time, we had to make money.

We had to make money and it had to be a business. Yeah.

And so Derek was like, I'll never forget. So, so my background was marketing. Like that's what I, I worked for brands and did like social media, um, as well as like marketing strategy. And so Derek was like, okay, well let's just, you know, name the farm like Jackson Family Farm. And I was like, no. Like, I was like, I'm trying to be a household name. Like, I'm not about to do this. We're gonna do this, it needs to be like a legit—

I was saying the number, like, everything had to be business, but when it came to like any creative or anything outside of that, it was like, yeah, it doesn't matter. Like, I'm just thinking about straight numbers, like chickens, like pigs, all those things. Like, that's what I was thinking.

That's why we bounce each other. Yeah, because where he was focused on, you know, one part of the business, I was also focused on another part. And I knew that there were, there were just things that we needed to have put in play in order for the business to be a business.

So, so after, so after the, the big full-time thing was I knew I had a year left.

Yeah.

And I had a year to make it. It's like I had a year. I had— I hadn't— I haven't told— I had to turn down a promotion, and with turning down the promotion would mean that I would also be exiting the military. So, um, so in order for me to say I'm leaving behind this career, uh, leaving behind this career, it like— it— the money, like, we have— I gotta see it, or else, you know, I'm leaving one thing for you know, who knows what. So it was like, okay, I'm looking at the numbers. I'm, you know, at that point I was just like, I'm just going to start taking steps in that direction. Got the, um, we started looking for land. A friend of mine, I don't know how we found— we started looking for land, found some land that was available. Um, the closest thing that we could find, we was at— we were actually looking closer to Charlotte, but, uh, just because we had— we known a little bit about Charlotte. The closest thing we could find was in Durham that would fit what we needed. Sure enough, looked at the land. The land was not everything that we needed. It was actually the opposite of what we needed. I was trying to do pasture poultry. This was 60 acres of woods. And I was just like, this— why am I going out here to look at this property? But we go out and look at the property. And when we go out to look at the property, while I'm there, you know, this fam— the family that was there before us were doing you know, just they were— it wasn't— it was pasture poultry. It was just in the— they were doing it in the woods. And I mean, I mean, they had a lot of chickens out there, um, and they were doing it. Um, and then they got me to think, I'm like, okay, well, you can do this. It just— it's just gonna look different. Like, you just— if this is the opportunity, you have to take the opportunities for what they are and just work with them. And sure enough, like, we look at the land, and she had pigs. And I remember like, man, she got pigs. She was like, this is like They were prime real estate for pigs.

And I never in my life have said, yeah, that is a beautiful pig. I saw those pigs and I said, that's a beautiful pig.

At this point, we had never been to a farm at that point. The only other farm we had gone to was that grass beef guy.

Yeah.

Or the, yeah, the grass beef.

Sure enough.

So we go and we're looking at their farm. We're just like, man, this is, they're doing everything everything out here. And, and, uh, and so we look at it and we're just like, this is it. So we leave, and it was a 2-hour driveway from our house, and, um, talked to the landowner. Everything just like— he was like, hey, you know, if you, if you're interested, the property is going to be available. The lease— they're, they're trying to leave, so the lease will start in January. Um, so if the lease started in January, and I was like, That's exactly a year. Like, like, that's exactly— we'll have a year from that date to, like, you know. So I was like, okay, well, we're gonna do it. Sign the lease on the property. Um, and then we started— we bought, we bought 10 pigs.

But then, yeah, and then we acquired an existing farm in order to have customers to catapult the business. Yeah, because we realized, like, we still need to— like, we still need to make money. Yeah, you know. Um, and so yeah, I think I would— I think that's good we're talking about this because I feel like a lot of people see our story but they don't know all the other ins and outs of it. But farming is great, but if you want to do it full time, you know, you really need to have that side of it, like the financial part.

So, so together, one, at that point we had, um, at that— so January 1st, we— January 1st we had— we bought, we bought 10 pigs. 75 laying hens. We took over an existing flock from the farm that was already there. They were gonna leave, and it was like, well, we should just, you know, they were like, are y'all interested? Are y'all gonna do layers? And we were like, we hadn't really thought about doing that. We were only gonna do pasture poultry, but now we're doing pigs. So, and she was like, well, the eggs, you know, they're laying, like, they're in, like, they're laying. So she's like, so if you, like, it's a cat, like, this this is cash money.

So I started being—

you buy the layers at the kids' school?

Yeah, yeah, they would buy eggs from me at the school.

So we're selling eggs because we're collecting them. There was so many eggs.

So Derek's going to this farm and getting— collecting eggs. And also, like, we're basically working on this whole plan.

Yeah, yeah, business plan has started with the name. We had a name. Everything else is— we're just working through it as we go. Yeah, uh, we knew that— we knew what worked We knew pasture poultry, we knew, and then we knew pigs, we knew hogs would work. Well, I knew for sure, we knew chicken, we knew that we could sell chicken. Pigs were like the other thing that I learned. Okay, well, pigs, you know, are very, very profitable, and with the land that you have, they're very, very profitable for you. That's a benefit for your property. So it was like, okay, we should get pigs. And my buddy might talk me into it, so I got the pigs.

And wait a minute, you have a farm buddy by this point?

Farm buddy, yes, another military guy.

Yes, he was a homesteader.

He was a homesteader, and, uh, he's full-time. He's still full-time now. He's a homesteader, uh, full-time military, full-time military, and yeah, homesteading. Okay. Um, he, he bought pigs, and he was like, I'm gonna go on something.

The way we met him was we got their dogs. Okay, we needed a dog for the chicken, for the hens, so we had the livestock guardian dog at the like at our house. Um, meanwhile, so the chickens are still— so we got— that's how you met him, from the dog?

Yeah, we met him from the dog.

Yeah, we ended up getting pigs through him too.

Yeah, so we weren't gonna do hens. The, the land had hens on them. The farm that was there was like, hey— and we told— she knew, they knew what we were doing. They were like, hey, if you buy these hens, you can like— that's cat— like, you'll start making money right away, like, and then it'll build your customer space. Like, you could always sell it. They're attractive, they'll bring in other people, you know, eggs, they draw in people. So if you want, like, you could totally whatever. And I mean, they were so gracious. I mean, they were just really good, really good people to know. And, uh, and the hens were— they— I mean, they were just— and they were really good farmers. Um, so at this point, we got the hens, we got the hens. They were like, but you're gonna need dogs. It's like, oh, we need dogs. So then we found dogs. We found some dogs, and then we found the dogs. When we got the dogs, met the farmer, and we met the guy, and he was like, hey, well, I'm getting some pigs. You want some pigs? And that's how military people are. We don't know each other. I talked to this dude one time or two times. He was like, we're gonna do dogs. I'm gonna buy your dogs. He sends me a text message like, hey dude, uh, I don't know if you're interested, but this is the first time I've ever talked to him outside of dogs. He said, I'm buying some pigs. You want some pigs. And I was— he was like, we'll get a really good deal on it. And I was like, okay, how many do we have to get? Like, what's the minimum? And he was like, um, he was like, I think we can get at a minimum, if we get 10 at least, like, we'll get a good deal on them. Um, and he was like, but I'm thinking about doing 10, so if you do at least 5, we'll get a good deal on 15. And I was like, okay, well, cool. I was like, well, I mean, I had read anywhere, I was like, if you don't do At this time I'm learning, I'm reading about pigs now. And they're like, well, what's the difference in doing, you know, what's the difference in doing, you know, 3 or 5 pigs? You should just do 10 pigs. And I was like, well, if he's going to do 10, I might as well do 10. We can get a better deal on it. And I was like, okay, well, I'm going to do 10. He was like, well, I'm going to do 5. And he was like, yeah. I was like, oh man, that's messed up. Anyway, he was like, yeah, you know, it's just, I don't know. Like he started having second thoughts. About it, right? Because he had never raised pigs either, and, uh, but he had the trailer. I didn't have a trailer. He had the trailer, so it worked out. And he was like, I'll pick them up and do everything, you just come pick up the trailer, and, you know, we'll learn this. And we did, we actually learned it together, and, uh, you know, how to, how to do this thing. And sure enough, we got the pigs. At this point, I mean, we got hens, we got pigs, We have eggs, but we're still not making much money because we're out of chicken at this point. And we're like, okay, well, the market— we need to get into a market. I got— at this point, I got 11 months before I leave. So I hadn't told the military yet, but I know I'm counting down the time. I know how much time I have at this point. We're like, okay, like Pace said, we're gonna go full in it. In order for us to go full in it, we need, you know, we need more numbers. We need, we need more customers. but in order to have customers, we need inventory. So I was going to a bunch of business courses and like, you know, trying to like learn more about business and like, you know, just growing a business. And at the business, they're like, hey, you know, maybe try buying a business. Like, and I heard that, I was like, buy a business? Hmm, you know, that's interesting. I'm looking into it. How can I buy a farm? You know, we already tried that. People don't want to sell farms. It's hard to buy farms. Uh, and sure, we don't have the money for it, but then we found a farm that was ready to get out.

Yeah.

And they were like, assets. And they were like, we're trying to just sell all of our hard assets. And I remember being like, okay, like, look into it. We looked into it, go. And this, this farm had been around for 7 years selling at 3 farmers markets. They had a, um, a breeding program, like a, like they had 6 sows and they're doing a lot of stuff. Like they're doing a— I mean, they've grown a market for themselves. And so, you know, we talked to him and go look at everything and the numbers made sense and it was like, let's do it. We bought the business. In a week we were at the farmer's market. Like we're now at a farmer's market. During this whole time—

They had inventory as well.

They did. They did.

I bet it was good.

We weren't going to buy No, that was the thing. We couldn't afford it.

I told Paige, I was like, but the agreement was that we were going to take inventory.

Yeah.

So COVID, but this is all in the midst of COVID Wow. So we, spring break hits for, and I remember this because like we were still kind of like getting ready for the transition, packing orders, making deliveries, like, you know, just figuring out all the stuff.

Yeah. And then we realized people start getting really fearful about what's happening with COVID And during this time we're still I still have a job.

Yeah.

Paige is—

you're running—

Paige still has a— Paige still has a— Paige is working.

I'm working.

Kids are in school. We still have our life.

I'm working.

So I'm going— at this point, I'm commuting to the farm to take care of the hens because they're on the farm and the pigs, they're at the farm. Um, and there's a bunch of stories in there with first 10 getting pigs out of a livestock trailer with kids on New Year's Eve. It was just a bunch of stories in there. Crazy stuff. So I'm commuting back and forth, going to the farm to pick up eggs, you know, tending to the animals there, coming back, doing my work stuff, doing family stuff. Now we bought this farm who has farmers markets, right, who also has deliveries. So now at this point, I tell my job, I'm not gonna— I'm gonna be leaving. I'm, you know, denied, you know, I rejected the the promotion, all this stuff, and it was a big deal, and it was just a lot of people were upset, uh, but they, they were just like, okay, you're leaving, there must be a reason behind why you don't want to do this anymore. And it worked out in our favor, and I was able to— they gave me the time that I needed to run my business. They were just like, all right, well, we expected you to be in Peru, but since you're not gonna go, we don't really have anything for you to do, so you know, just do what you need to do to get your life. However, they thought that I was going to come back. They were like, he's going to come back. Until they came to the house and they started seeing, wait a minute, this dude, like, you got chickens in your front yard, like, you're selling, like, you, you bought a— like, he's leaving. Um, he's really not coming back. Uh, so now we're doing farmers markets, we're doing deliveries. Um, but then COVID's happening, and then COVID—

how—

why, why does that mean?

Would the art thing sales go up? COVID? Yeah, they did.

So, okay, so, but we, we acquired this business with a lot of inventory. So the assumption was like, okay, well, this is good, you know, it stinks kind of having all this inventory, but it'll be good because this will help us with, you know, we couldn't, we couldn't afford—

we needed the hard assets.

Yes.

We could not afford the inventory.

We also could not afford—

we couldn't do both.

But when we started working with the, the business that we were acquiring, because we had like a period of like just working together.

Yeah, a transition.

We're gonna have a transition period. Yeah, COVID was happening. Everyone and their mom wanted to buy beef shares. Everybody, every share, all shares, all shares that were available, they wanted to buy them. And then the people that we knew through selling eggs found out that we had inventory, and they were like, we'll buy it.

Yeah, it's just the floodgates open.

It like, I mean, it really just worked out in our favor because it was like networking through our kids' school, you know, like whatever it was, just people that knew us and they knew that we were doing this, they wanted to support us. And so that on top of the customer base.

Yeah, we started, we saw real fast that market, we had, we had a market, like we had an established market. I could, I felt peace at leaving my job. Yeah. Um, But it was also, it was also another potential problem was we sold out of inventory. All of that inventory in 2 weeks.

We sold out of it.

Oh wow.

It was 2 weeks. It was all gone.

And then you couldn't afford— it was enough that you couldn't afford to buy it.

But the other, the farmer was able to make— so she, she made it. She left in a very good place. And it was a problem for her in the beginning because she was like, what am I going to do with this inventory? Like, you don't— if y'all can't afford it, we were going to sell it. I just couldn't—

like, it was just like, well, I just can't keep the profits of it, basically.

Exactly.

So pass it on to them.

Exactly. So it was like, it worked out. It worked out. You know, she sold through all of her inventory. We met a lot of new people. We made a lot of connections, like, really fast. Like, it just catapulted us. So at this point they were like, well, that farm, you know, and, and at this point we have a lot of inventory, uh, in the chute, like it's coming up. So it's like, okay, you know, we just gotta, you know, it just worked out. It worked out really well, um, for our first year of business. And like at that point it was like, um, we need to move, we need to move to the farm because we need more. Like at that point we went from you know, only having 10 pigs to 10 feeder pigs to like— I think we got like 20, 30-plus feeder piglets from that farm.

Wow.

Um, yeah, yeah, everything was like—

everything increased, which is what we needed.

Yeah, again, like, season was starting, pasture poultry finally is coming around.

We did the chicken season.

The whole reason for why, right? All of this we still didn't have anywhere to do it though because there was no clear land. So, um, and we were looking for a house because it was like we're still commuting, right? And it's like, okay, we need somewhere to live. Can't live on the farm.

Amy's place.

Yeah, met Amy and Josh. Okay, they wanted to transition.

They were leaving. Yeah, they were going home.

It worked out.

Small house, really making it work.

Yeah, clear pasture.

They had clear pasture.

So the farm that you bought wasn't Blue Whistler then? No, that was somebody else.

Yeah, yeah.

Oh, in my mind I was thinking we knew the same people.

Yeah, yeah, all in the same.

Well, perfect.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

But then you could do that at Amy's former place.

Yeah, yeah, she— because she had clear pasture, so it was just perfect for a pasture poultry operation.

Yeah, yeah.

So, and I can't believe this was just 2 years ago.

I know.

2 years. Yeah, it was.

I feel like, I guess, yeah.

Are y'all all right now? Are y'all successful?

Yeah, yeah, we've been, we've been successful.

I think every business has growing pains, but we're still—

from a success standpoint, from a success standpoint, you haven't gone back to the military?

Oh no, like not even. Uh, so even like, no, like, uh, it's not even an option.

Yeah, you can't shave his beard. So, okay, so to sum it up, Yep. And to wrap it up, looking back, what has made all the struggle worth it? It's not easy what you've done.

It's still not easy either.

Mm-hmm.

It's still not because like—

Well then what's your hope? Let's go there.

Yeah.

What's your hope?

Yep.

To make this struggle worth it?

Our time. Mm-hmm. Yeah. It's just the time that we have together. Is just, even if we're not, even if we're not together, it's just the fact that our, like, we really do own our time. Yeah. So every decision that we make, we make for our, like, it revolves around our family. We didn't do that in the beginning when we first started farming. Um, and while there is a difference between, you know, what we do And we would say this in the beginning, that we weren't homesteaders. We weren't homesteading, and we weren't. No, we missed— and now we're— now we're— we are establishing our homesteading. I would say our homesteading roots, as in, um, when I say it was about business, it was— it was business. Like, yeah, everything was run like a business. We bought— we went from I was making chicken tractors to finding a chicken tractor manufacturer that can manufacture something that is like prompt, that is easy to move, that's efficient, that can house as most chick— you know, as many birds as possible, that won't fly in the wind, that won't like whatever. Like from a, you know, from a cost-benefit, uh, uh, standpoint, like everything was like, wait, wait, does that make sense financially? No, then we're not gonna do it. Okay, does that make— not You know, well, I have a, you know, we have this passion for dairy cows. Like, the dairy cow purchase was a homesteading. Like, we are starting to establish, wait a second, there is more to this. We're not just farmers. We're not just, you know, market farmers. This is a lifestyle. Like, and we're like, there's a difference. And now we're living this lifestyle of Well, I'll say this, you, you people ask the question about, uh, conventional farmers and they say, man, I don't understand, you know, how these farmers are able to do this. They, they get in these tractors and they plow these fields and they spend hours and hours just riding, sitting in the, in the seat while this tractor drives and do all this work. And we don't understand how there is a lost connection. And I don't think there's a lost connection. I think that they just view it as just business. Like, that's just it. And they don't understand that if they— if only they just, you know, got out of the tractor and they got— and they walked, you know, and they— and they walked their fields and they, um, and, and they didn't use their tractor as much. And I say tractors, we don't have a tractor, but I've learned a lot of stuff from not having a tractor. It takes a lot longer to get stuff done. Um, but the other benefit is that it takes a whole lot of time. But the other thing is, it's like when it comes to like safety and stuff like that, or like putting people— it's just we don't have— our farm is super safe. Like, we don't have a bunch of machinery.

You're not afraid your kid's gonna get run over.

Exactly.

Like, he gets on the tractor, I freak out. I'm like, where's the kids? They gotta back up.

It's— yeah, the whole thing. Like, and, and, and we— like, that's one of the things that we have been like, oh man, like, this is, this is, this is, this is cool. Uh, right now, uh, but we're like, we, we need— but we're gonna get a tractor. We need a tractor.

We're gonna get a tractor.

But yeah, however, you know, with not having it, we— it is what— it's the things that have kept us grounded. Yes, because it could have easily just been like, we're gonna go super commercial because we've had the opportunity to be like— exactly, that's— that was the— that was the route that we were on.

I mean, but we're not, we're not doing that. I mean, yeah, I think we've taken a step back in some ways, and the time, our, the time that we have to—

our time is important to us. And, um, and just having, having the ability to say, um, we're gonna go, we're gonna go to the Rose this weekend, like, and, and, you know, just to be able to— and this was— and this is a sacrifice It's a sacrifice in a number— like, it's a sacrifice for things that we support, and then it's a sacrifice, you know, we sacrifice things as in having to bring people to the farm to look after things, but these are all decisions that we can make, and they're like, we have the choice to do it. And I think that that's one of the things that gives us hope. I don't want to do anything else because I'm afraid that I will lose my time. And this lifestyle allows me, you know, the benefit to, you know, choose what we do with our time. Like, all of it, you know. Yeah, we're just now— we're, I would say, we're babies in homesteading. Like, we really are. We're still learning, you know. We're gonna plant some actual seeds this year. We don't know what yet. We're gonna plant some seeds this year, like, actually in the soil. Uh, which is a big deal because I've always wanted to do this and, uh, we haven't. We have not. We, we haven't planted anything. And, uh, everything's not starts that you can take home.

Yeah, we got some broccoli for you. You be careful because you started with chickens to eat for yourself and then all your friends wanted to buy some, so now you have this dairy cow. Yeah, after you for that raw milk.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Before you know it, you're gonna have a raw milk farm and Yeah, that is the, uh, we've, um, yeah, yeah, that's the, that's the thing that comes with it. And then it's just choosing, like, just, yeah, you know, choosing, you know, wait a second, you don't want to take on too much.

Yeah, hard.

So yeah, yeah, yeah, I chose your heart.

Yeah.

Well, thank you guys so much.

I know, I feel like we could like literally, we're gonna have to do a part 2, of course.

Thanks for having us. Yeah, yeah.

Be great.

Oh, and folks want to find you, they can go to Grass Grazed all over the internet.

Yeah, www.grassgrazed.com, on Instagram, Facebook.

I highly recommend, I highly recommend the Instagram.

They get—

they do lives, and let me tell you, I fell in love with them watching y'all's lives.

Seriously, real talk, real talk.

These people, they're like doing this. Yeah, it's great. Yeah, I really like them.

All right, everybody go check them out.

Thanks.