Morgan Gold on Asking Why, NFTs, Content Creation, Loneliness and the Hunting Controversy

What would make this home run for you?

I think like a good sort of deep cuts conversation. I think it'd be fun to like put something like that out there. So yeah.

What do you mean by that?

Um, I don't know. I think getting into the why, because I think that's like the most unasked question that often comes up, but it's like the most important thing. And like getting into that and talking about my why, I'd love to do that. I think that'd be fun.

The why for what? The why for—

why for how I live my life. Which, I mean, everything kind of flows from that.

That's good. I'm glad you gave me that. Then we'll go definitely into the, to the why. Yeah, you normally, like, when I go on a podcast, I'd kind of like to talk about things every other podcaster doesn't talk to me, talks to me about, you know what I mean? Yeah, I want to go different place.

Yeah, like, yeah, you said in your text, like, yeah, I don't want to talk about ducks. Like, yeah, like, what's the best way to treat bumblefoot? Yeah, yeah.

My poor members, they asked me one time, what questions— what questions you not like? I had to tell them, but I get it every time. It doesn't stop either. Yeah, like, how do I treat my sick chicken?

Yeah, so it's always so funny to me that, you know, usually when people start, they always start with the, like, the how-to questions, and they're always— they're always how questions. They never go to the like the why questions. And so it's usually that you start with the how, then you go to the what, and then you go to the why. It's like, I feel like the progression that like, as you get deeper into deeper doing anything, it doesn't matter if it's raising chickens or woodworking or, you know, figuring out your career. It's like, I think it's like the more you start to ask that why question, the more you've evolved it.

So what do you, what are these people wanting when they, they want to know how, Well, why don't they want to know why? Give me a how example. Yeah. How to heal bumblefoot on your duck?

Yeah, exactly. Because I think oftentimes, you know, you're starting with the source of the problem. And to address the source of the problem, you've got to start with, well, how do I fix this? How do I do that? But then, you know, well, why do I have bumblefoot? Like, you know, why do I even have ducks? Like, you know, you almost kind of have to like almost go backwards from there. So I always try to emphasize that why before the what.

So if the why before the what. So have you ever corrected anybody?

No, that's rude. That's rude. I mean, look, people are going to ask me, I think to try to help people and help them see the even bigger.

I think that's how do you gently do that? Somebody say, what's wrong? Why? They're not saying why. How do I heal bumblefoot? Yeah, Morgan.

I mean, I'll give you the 3, but the biggest thing you got to think about is oftentimes it's some sort of cut. You know, is your ground not good enough? And so like, why is it coming? Like that's really where it goes. And so try to get your answer to that, I think is what it'll be.

I feel like it's maybe the core of the problem they're missing. If how do I fix bumblefoot? What you need, Matt? Oh, turn the heat down. It's too loud? Yep. All right. You warm, Morgan? Because he's about to cut our heat off.

Yeah, I'm good.

All right. So how they want to know. How do I fix bumblefoot? That's like, how do I put on a bandaid? Isn't it? Yeah, it's more, I mean, it's, I mean, as opposed to, well, what caused this bumblefoot in the first place?

And like, why, how do I keep it from coming? I mean, and it's not to say that both aren't important.

Yeah.

But I mean, back to your question of like, well, what do I prefer? I always prefer the why question over the how or the what.

Yeah. I asked you, and I don't know if it was rolling or not, but what would make this home run? I think, I think it was recording. But you wanted to talk about the why. So we're definitely gonna have to get into the why with you. I told you in text, because you said people want to know what is this podcast going to be about. Well, I don't know really. Let's just talk about interesting things. With you, we'll definitely go into business and what you've been able to do with online creation. We should get into some of the, the why to give people context of you. So you are this— I told you we're not going to talk about ducks, and here we are.

I was gonna say, we just spent 5 minutes on Bumblefoot, man.

So let's— maybe I should take a really sharp turn right here so people don't think we're going to talk about ducks the whole time. You just posted a video on far— on encouraging farm NFTs.

Well, no, not encouraging. We'll just be— let me set the record straight here. So I am somebody who's always fascinated with, okay, like what's coming, where are things going, what's evolving? And I feel like you have to have been living under a rock for the last year to not be paying attention to like hearing this concept of an NFT, a non-fungible token, this sort of idea of having a digital asset that is sold on the blockchain and you have ownership of that.

Ah, let Jason get in here for a second. Here's your water. This is famous water, by the way.

Well, I feel honored.

You know, we traveled America in 2016, uh, 50 states in 10 months.

Yep.

There's a lot of places did not have good water. Yeah, we come to really appreciate good water.

Well, I mean, living off well water is like so much nicer versus like— I think about city water. Yeah, like, that's a big difference.

Are you on well water?

Do you have good clean, good clean water?

Tasty water.

It's great.

Yeah, we hit up some free springs. There's like an internet site where you can look up springs. Yep. And where, where they're available to the public, you can go and get spring water. Feel like we found one in Vermont.

We— there's a lot of them. I mean, I've got, I think, 3, 3 developed springs, and I imagine there's at least a handful more undeveloped.

Ben Fock was installing a spring when we went to his place in Vermont. Is that a thing? I mean, here it's a thing. You, you definitely tap springs. Several.

You set up like a bot typically. I mean, the old school way, you like build a box of some sort Yeah, let it flow and then to let overflow. I mean, right now I'm gearing up to actually figure out my winter cattle area for next year, and having a constantly flowing spring-fed waterer is something I'm looking at because that way it'll keep it from freezing. That's how all the old-timers in Vermont kept their water from freezing when they didn't have electricity back in the day.

Nice. Yeah, this house had no running water and electricity when they started out on it. I feel like Vermont and Western North Carolina are kind of similar in some ways.

I mean, this part of North Carolina for sure, because, you know, it's the hilly topography I think creates a different type of community.

Yeah.

Like if I compare New Hampshire and Vermont, which I just see that much more on a regular basis, you've got New Hampshire, which is like fiercely independent, and you've got Vermont, which is much more committed to this concept of like community. And there are people who are out there will say that it's driven by the geography. Where Vermont, you have all these little towns in the pockets of mountains. And so in olden times, like 200 years ago, it was hard to get there from here. And so you had to become very reliant on your neighbor, whereas New Hampshire, you know, it was driven by trade. There's a lot of easy north-south, east-west access, or easier. And so you had much more about individuality. And, and so I think when you're in like a hillside country like this, I think, I think that carries forward a little bit. And so I think that's where some of those similarities come.

Yeah. Do you think hillside people are, have a more rebellious mentality?

I don't know. So I'm a, I'm a native flatlander as they'd say in Vermont. So I grew up in like central Connecticut. And so I don't, maybe there is a certain measure of independence to it and just sort of grit that has to come with it because You know, like farming in an area here even now is harder than, you know, a big flat property. I can only imagine 150 years ago what farming would have been like out here, trying to manage things, trying to maximize doing sustenance farming. Like, that's— I don't know, that to me does not seem like an easy life. So you have to have a certain measure of grit to be able to do that.

That's true. That's a good point. So they're more gritty. My dad was plowing mule. He can remember plowing a mule team at 11. So You're working when you're very young. He'd remember he was barefoot. I don't know what that means to the story, but he flipped this mule team at 11 years old because he's on a 35-degree slope and he flips this team and he can remember troubleshooting and problem solving and undoing the situation at 11. When I go out west, when you go out west and it's open, people from the West Coast come out here and they feel claustrophobic because of all the trees. You're nodding your head.

Yeah, yeah. But for me, it's more— You've heard people talk about this? I've heard people talk about that. And I feel like it's, I guess, is it agoraphobic almost? Where it's like, there's so much open space. I feel like I'm out there and exposed. That's where I was going to go with this.

It goes the other way because when I'm out West, I feel exposed. I don't know what I'm hiding from, but maybe this is heritage thing.

I don't know.

I don't know. Maybe my people somewhere along the lines were in these mountains to hide.

That's where the hill people come from, I guess.

Growing the moonshine. Exactly. Yeah. Having their own little nation, their own little country out here.

Yep.

Minding their own business. Okay. Back to the NFTs. So I think that's going to speak to where you're coming from and a lot of things. So Why are you posting this NFT video on you? Because you were, you were, you were reading the comments there and you're like, I don't know if the internet's ready for this.

Well, yeah.

Well, the internet's probably ready.

No, but it's all over the internet.

The homestead community internet, they might not be ready.

Well, sorry. So let me back up because I think you got to lay out the premise.

Yeah.

So, you know, NFTs all the rage, all sorts of opportunities that come with it. One of the thoughts I've had, and this is something that's very personally important to me, when I think about small farmers, I think that the world needs more small farmers. And what can you do to help promote that? One of the biggest barriers for small farmers right now is access to capital. Like, where are you going to get the funds that you need to, you know, start up? How are you going to kind of get the know-how? How are you going to have the ability to sustain a couple of years that may have some significant ups and downs? NFTs could be a potential source for capital. And so is there a way to bring those two things together and leverage this new technology, which, you know, some folks will say is this is going to be the wave of the future 5, 10 years from now and let farmers, small farmers get access to that and be able to participate in that early. So that's the premise.

Yeah.

But I don't know, maybe my audience hates that idea. Maybe lots of people hate that. There's lots of good reasons to hate NFTs. And so the way I see the world, I think it's really important to say, well, let me lay out the idea, get a reaction. Maybe I go that way. Maybe I throw it in the garbage. I think based on the messages I've been getting in the last hour and a half, I'm going to throw it in the garbage.

Are you really? What does that mean? Throw it in the garbage? You're actually going to pull it off the channel?

No, I'm not going to pull it off.

You're just not going to talk about it again.

I mean, I'm, I'll probably talk about it again, but I'm not going to release a collection. I like the reason I make the video. Is to get a reaction, see what people think. And then that helps me shape kind of where do I want to go and like, you know, kind of what needs to be done versus me working in a bubble, like ignoring everybody, working for 6 months on this thing that everybody hates. Like, do it quick, be out there, be responsive. That is the beauty of, I think, the world that we live in today versus say 20 years ago. And, and so I try to take advantage of it.

This is a good point you make because You don't know how your audience is going to react to this until you hit publish. So you're failing. You're going to fail small.

It's one video that people hate. I can live with that.

And you know, I come to find out it doesn't matter if people hate it or don't click on it and it could be half the views. YouTube doesn't punish you for that. Your next video, if it's their typical Toby Dog and chasing the, the ducks around, and that's what people like and are used to, animal cams, it's going to pick right back up.

Yeah. And so I don't sweat it, but I, I feel like I would be much less happy doing what I'm doing if I was like, oh, I shouldn't talk about that because people might not like it. Like, you know what I mean? It's like, I'd much rather say, let me see, let me actually broach it with people. I mean, I feel like that's an important way to get out there. And for me, I like, my videos are such an extension of me personally. Like it's, I spend a lot of time by myself in my own head. I'm not a very extroverted person, but I find that I have a like absolute need to communicate by way of creating stuff. And that's how I get my thought. My, my, it drives my wife crazy all the time because it's like, I'm so in my head, I'm so in my head. I'll put everything out in a video, but like it's harder. Like, you know, on a Sunday afternoon I'm just like, I don't know, I'm gonna go to this, I'm at this thing. Things. Like, I'm just like monosyllabic mumbling, like just not very communicative. And it's because it's— for me, the creation is where I am able to like express myself, and that makes such a huge difference.

I get it. Have you ever gotten in trouble with her because she found out your heart? Well, from the video and not your mouth? I think your audience found out before she did.

No, no. So I've never done that because I feel like I'm self-aware enough to know that like, hey, this matters to— but there has been many times where I will go out, say something and articulate something in a video and shoot it. And then probably to have a conversation with her shortly after, because I feel like just that cathartic act of speaking in front of the camera has helped me get it out. I think it's probably like, you know, lots of people are big journalers.

Yeah.

I don't journal, but I make a lot of videos and me talking in those videos is probably my personal equivalent of that.

Do you ever dare to go, surely not all your thoughts are consumed with ducks, geese, NFTs, and content creation. You have feelings towards your parents, towards her, towards politics or faith. Do you ever go there with your video journaling?

Yeah. You know, all right. So here's a good example. I made this video a couple of years ago. Ago, um, really talking about a friend of mine. Uh, her name was Heather, and she was this beautiful girl I went to high school with, and I had this like crazy crush on her. And I eventually asked her to go with me to this dance, and she said yes. She had no reason, she shouldn't have gone, but she like liked me as a friend.

She's out of your league is what you're telling me?

Completely out of my league. I'm talking like 3 months.

So why'd you ask How'd you, how'd you get up to that?

Let me, let me do, I think I maybe, maybe, maybe I kind of talked myself into it and, and I asked her, we went out and we had a great time and it was as friends and it got me to this place of seeing like, you know what, I was just kind of thinking about this as an idea. Like I liked the idea of going with this girl that I thought was really pretty to go to this dance, but actually getting to know her as a person, that's like way more important. And, and that to me was like very kind of powerful and a transformational moment. That I hadn't thought about in 20 years, but she passed away. So 2 years ago, like she passed away and that news like just hit me. And I thought about this experience. I thought about how her kind act really changed me as a person and gave me a different perspective in that world where like I could have had a chip on my shoulder, but she put some water on it and it's just now a warm, salty paste. Like, you know, she like did that. And that was not something I had thought about. It wasn't until I started talking about it while I was doing a chore video that I really isolated that thought. And then I talked to my wife about it, but it's like that sort of stuff, which has nothing to do with farming whatsoever, just by being out there and talking to really my audience, I feel like I can express so much more and it becomes very free.

Yeah. You said you called it a chore video. So you told this story while you were doing chores. Did you do that on purpose? As in, you guys are here for the chores, but I want to tell this story that has nothing to do with homesteading. Here goes. This is how I married my wife.

I'll do that a lot where I'll just kind of go on a little riff. Sometimes I'll cut it out and not even use it. Other times I'm like, oh, that's probably the more interesting thing. This was like one where I, like the whole video is basically about this because I realized, oh, that's the most interesting part. After the fact. But, you know, look, I'm a dude who lives in the second least populated state in the country, in the least populated corner of the country, in a town of 700 people. I'm often by myself most of the day. You know, up until a couple weeks ago, I was working from home. Now I still work from home. You know, I don't see a lot of people. You know, you know, generally we try to like socially distance. And so because of all of those things, I'm pretty much alone a lot. And so speaking to the camera matters. I talk to my animals all the time. That matters. And it's like in that talking, that's where things come out for sure.

You said you generally like to social distance. Is that because of the pandemic or is that because this is your personality?

Yes.

I guess that means both.

I mean, like, this is one of those things, right? So my wife, she's a nurse practitioner. You know, she has had the most difficult 2 years watching what she's had to work with, you know, she's— because she was working in an express care clinic, then she moved over actually just like a COVID screening center. That's what she was doing. You know, now she works in the emergency room of one of the local hospitals and she's got PTSD from the last 2 years and how hard her job has become and the struggles of the pandemic. So yeah, like we both believe it's like, yeah, we should probably keep it to a minimum and as much as you can. Just, and I see the impact that that has. And so that has kept us much more distanced. And, but at the same time, I'm pretty antisocial. I'm pretty much a homebody. And so it's been a good excuse.

So, so yes. So she, she, she was, she's experiencing this in the hospital. When, when you say this, this, this sense of feeling like maybe a sense of overwhelm or tragedy there, you're talking about cases. Or are you talking about the new, uh, order of doing things?

Um, I think cases in certain specific situations, I think, um, the workload and the volume and the stress and just how like our hospital infrastructure is just not equipped to deal with a lot of that right now. Like a lot of those things.

So maybe there's not enough workers either. Is she facing some of that?

Yeah. I mean, understaffed for sure. She's having to do work another 12-hour shift like that. Yeah. Yeah. That, that makes sense.

But then there's a lot of deal cases coming through. Yeah, yeah, because that— I guess she would be the one that would see that, where regular people don't necessarily see that.

And, and it's, it's, yeah, it's kind of every day. And so that, that it weighs on her a lot. So, so that's where I, I take a lot of that stuff very seriously, just because, if not for anything else, just that reason.

Yeah. You like this? You like this homesteading, lonely type of lifestyle? Would you call it lonely or would you call it isolated?

I mean, it's— I would call it lonely.

No.

And I have lots of people that connect, lots of friends, you know, whether it's real friends that I have in town that I still connect with or it's, you know, friends that I have, you know, in different parts of the country.

Oh, that helps.

Like that helps. It makes such a difference in terms of just even like the homesteading world. It's such an amazing community of folks. And some of those relationships I have, I absolutely cherish. Um, I mean, just last couple days, I mean, the reason I'm down here in this neck of the woods, so just out visiting friends, and, and that to me has been awesome, and I've missed that. Um, and you know, it like, so, so there is that for sure. So I would, I wouldn't want to overplay it as loneliness, but if you look at my day-to-day, right? Yeah, it's pretty solo.

If you're in homesteading, it does end up being, it can be lonely because you you're at home, you're usually, you're out in rural. So was this an acceptable lifestyle for you as you got into this? I imagine you haven't been doing this your whole life. I only imagine that because most people I talk to haven't. Was that part of the draw, that part of the lifestyle, or was it a sacrifice for the lifestyle?

I think it was just sort of an adjacent thing that I don't mind. So it wasn't, it didn't draw me in. I mean, what drew me in is, you know, back to that thing I said earlier of like, really believing in need in more small farmers and really believing that, well, you know, what am I doing if I'm not trying to find and help be a part of a solution to a big problem, you know? And so that, that's, that's my core motivation and kind of the shift. Other things become sort of like fringe benefits to it. And so if you— to ask like, why did I want to try to start this farm and why am I doing that, that's, that's rooted there. I think the other side of the equation of Why do I like making videos? Why do I like creating content? Like, why, why is that a focus for me? I mean, I look back to like when I was a kid, right? My happiest times as I was a kid, like what I used to do is I would sit in my room and draw comics or read comics. And that was like always my favorite thing. And then I'd share them with people and tell people about them. And that was, I love doing that part too. It was like, like a process. Like it, you need to have both parts for it to be fulfilling. And, uh, I think what I, I see what I do with like videos and stuff is a 100% extension of that. No, no doubt about it. Just adapted for modern times.

Yeah. I saw your comic. I think it was a TikTok or something. You showed it.

Did—

why didn't you, why didn't you be a professional comic? Why didn't you go down that route? Why aren't you making comic YouTube videos?

I'm just not that good at drawing.

Why aren't you on some comic podcast?

I'm, I'm, I, I think I'm, I'm pretty good at telling stories. Okay. I don't think I'm very good at drawing. I, I, I, I think like that's probably the biggest difference. Like when I, I was in high school, I like, uh, went to art school afterwards. Like that was, all right, I'm gonna go to art school cuz I can draw somewhat. And that's where I went where you get there and you're like, wow, I can't draw anything. And so I kind of went from being an animation major to like focusing more on like film as a, as a big part of what I was doing creatively at school. And so that's, that was where that shift happened. And then, you know, it's been kind of an extension of that ever since.

And you did the artwork on your hat, your, your logo. Oh yeah.

No, I mean, I still draw, I still do stuff, but yeah. So what's up with the bird on the bear?

Bear?

Um, it's two things. It's, uh, one, it's really a metaphor for the farm and like what I want it to be, where— and I know birds don't usually sit on bears' heads, but, um, you know, go out to— you see like that symbiotic relationship between a rhinoceros and a cowbird and like what happens there, where the rhinoceros is there providing a meal the bird is there removing the pests and they're working together. I think that idea of animals working together, a farm being an ecosystem, it's something I fundamentally believe. And it's really how I try to manage the farm, that premise. Then it's also a metaphor for the relationship between my wife and me, actually. Ah, so I think our relationship often kind of plays a very similar role as well. Um, and so that, that's what inspired it.

Are you the bear and she's the bird, or?

I don't know, man.

Or are you just two animals working together?

I think it switches from time to time. Probably physically I'm much more the bear and she's more the bird. But, but I think conceptually, I think the role shifts depending on the situation.

Was she on board with this, this, this rural farm lifestyle? Yeah.

You know, I, I think yes, but I think there's like some, some like asterisks to it, right? So, you know, she was the one who was always pushing organic and more sustainable living and, and changing how you do things. Like, And I remember like when we lived in New York initially and she'd be like, let's go to the farmer's. I'm like, it's a big scam at the farmer's market. They just ripping you off. And that's just an excuse to charge higher prices. And, you know, she's like, no, no, no. And eventually I, you know, kind of did more learning, more reading, talking to a lot of farmers actually got me thinking differently. And so my worldview shifted. So she was the one who was there well before I was. And then we both had always said, yeah, we'd love to kind of, you know, we were living in New York and then we lived in DC. Like, I'd love to, you know, kind of find a nice quiet spot in the middle of nowhere and have that be kind of a place to really build something. Um, I think for her, she still probably likes the creature comforts of the city more and like, you know, wants that more. And so we've always tried to find a balance where she can kind of get that access and enjoy that. Um, and, and kind of try to find a balance. Um, so I'm probably more passionate about it now. She probably was the more the instigator of it. Way back.

So how do you get her the creature comforts?

I mean, out in the country, and, and it has been very tough the last couple of years, but like, you know, like finding a way to go away to like Boston for the weekend or Montreal for the weekend. Like, you know, it's like that sort of thing, recognizing that that has to be a part of the farm design. And you can't just say, nope, we got animals now, you can never make it work. Like, no, you got to make your animals work and find a way to make that work. Because again, you know, we were talking about this earlier, right? You can't forget the human animal on the farm as well. And so making sure that's sustainable is just as important as making sure, you know, your chickens aren't just living in complete piles of poop all the time, or, you know, you're providing the right clean water for your cattle. Like, you have to make sure you're doing all of those things, making sure that it works for the person and that, you know, both people are running— all the people who live there are able to have that experience in meeting their needs. That's important.

Yeah. So you guys are, um, you're just the two of you, you don't have any children, right?

No kids by choice.

Yeah. Okay. All right. What?

Oh, I mean, I was gonna say it was actually something we talked a lot about, like, when we were dating, right?

Yeah.

Like, you know, do you want kids? You want— I was always kind of like, I don't know, maybe, I guess, like, sort of like, yeah, I could probably be talked into it, but it wasn't like I was like Yeah, I want to be a dad. Let's go. And for her, she really didn't want kids.

Wow.

And so it was like one of those things where we absolutely kind of made it as a decision then. And I think some people are kind of like floored by that and they're like, well, you— how can you like that? You'll change your mind later. And it's like, no, this is like, you know, personal choice, major life decision. And much like we make all of those, this one feels good for us. It doesn't mean it's for everybody, but it's for us.

No, it's actually refreshing. It threw me off a little bit. I had to say, wait, did he just say that? But it's refreshing that you would say, I said, do you have kids? And you said, no kids by choice. Because then it's just like, well, a lot of, so many people want to have kids. Then the, then the person's thinking, well, could they, could they not? Do I need to feel pity here or do I need to, what do I do? So you kind of help the. Help the other person figure out, see, you're a storyteller.

Yeah.

You're giving context.

And it's necessary because I mean, and look, so we've been married now a little over 10 years. Right. And so, you know, when you first get married, people, you know, don't assume, but they just sort of make an assumption and go, and you're like, no, no, we're not. And they're like, oh, but you'll change your mind. You'll, now that actually like, like I'm above 40, I think they're like, oh, well maybe they are serious about this whole premise. Like, you know, and so maybe it's by the time we're like in our 50s, they're like, Yeah, they're committed to this. Okay. No use in trying to talk them into it. Cause I actually found that that was always the most awkward thing was like when you say, oh no, we don't have them. Oh, okay. You want to have them a couple of years?

Like, say yeah.

Like, and then it's like, for some people it's almost like, well, you are insulting our way of life by not wanting to have kids. And I see, I personally try to be as tolerant as humanly possible and recognize that everybody's going to have different worldviews and it's not going to match your worldview. And your job isn't to try to convince other people of their worldview is not the right one, but yours is, but rather you're better off understanding their why and understanding what and like getting behind how they view the world. Cause you're going to actually be able to know that person better and be totally cool with not having the same point of view. I think I actually think you want to talk politics now, right? In the broader world, the biggest problem we have is we are further and further losing the ability to disagree and have it be okay. And, and I think that that's, that's a big struggle.

Yeah, that's going to cause a problem. Speaking of disagreements and be okay, when— what sounds like— did you and your wife have this conversation before you got married?

Oh yeah, most definitely, multiple times.

How'd it come up? Come up casual, or, or is it kind of like Cause, cause what else mattered? That's a big thing to, to decide not to have kids or to have kids. What else mattered? Yeah, I think, oh, where you want to live.

That came up for sure. So, so the way it worked is, so my wife and I, we met, um, started dating when we were both living in Hartford, Connecticut. And, you know, we both grew up just outside of Hartford. Like, it's kind of like home area. And my wife was actually going off to grad school. She was going to Tulane to get a master's in public health. And when she did that, we basically were talking about it and we're like, all right, we're getting engaged, let's do it. And we had this conversation of, well, where are we going to live? And, and, you know, we knew that we'd have an engagement where she was living in one city and I was living on— I knew I wasn't going to move to New Orleans, but it was like, well, the deal is you're going to have to go find a job somewhere else because I'm not coming back to Hartford because I actually loved Hartford. I had like dreams of being the mayor of Hartford, like And she was like, you need to find a job in Hartford or outside of Hartford. And we made a list of 5 cities and it was my job to find that job. And then she'd come meet me wherever that was afterwards. And so we had both been like very committed urban dwellers essentially, because I'd say cities, it was, I think the list was New York, Chicago, Atlanta, Boston. And I think DC, like those were the 5 cities on our list. And, um, you know, basically like 2 weeks after that I got a job in New York. And so I was like, I actually moved before she even left for school.

And it worked out.

It worked out. It worked out good.

Do you guys have, uh, that's maybe a dumb question, but do you have disagreements now, uh, or differences of opinion now? Oh, all the time. You and your wife?

We are wildly different people, right?

Yeah.

And, and so all the time. And You know, like here, here's an example and it's very relevant to some of the things we were talking about earlier today. Like, you know, I am a very functional person. I am very much like, does this work? Does it not work? Like, that's what matters. She likes to have things beautiful.

Hmm.

Beautiful does not serve a function to me. And so like one of the things has been like, you know, she wants to beautify our farm and I'm like, I don't wanna waste my energy. I got so many other things I need to do or I could be doing. And what it actually kind of came to is me realizing, back to that, hey, this farm needs to work for everybody who lives here. I gotta match her at least halfway.

Yeah, I feel like we forget our spouses sometimes, or children.

It's hard to chase a dream when you have others who are connected to you so closely. But I actually wonder, is it really worth the chase, that dream, if you're not bringing them with you somehow?

Yeah, that's a good point. Yeah, I'm an epic meat eater. I wish my family would get on board. It'd be a much simpler life, but they like their veggies, and it's helped to use permaculture to where the animals are tilling the garden, say. Then those two are working together, and I'm excited about the animals, and she's excited about the vegetables. Do you ever go back to your Y to help you in these disagreements with your wife, these frustrating moments?

Absolutely.

Textbooks, you just— that does always come out. It can't always come automatically to you. You're not perfect.

No, I screw up all the time and usually have to like, you know, be like, hey, I want to talk about something we were talking about yesterday. You know, I was kind of— yeah, I came off a little hot there. My gut reaction was maybe a little overly strong. Sorry. Like, oh yeah, I just—

an example of an apology.

Oh yeah. I have a strong taste for crow.

Yeah. So what does that mean?

Is that a— you're like eating crow. You've never heard the expression?

Have you heard that, Jason? Well, you're from California.

Yeah. Like you're making apologies. You're making apologies on me.

Hey, Matt, have you ever heard of that? Eating crow? Yeah. Oh, man.

Maybe it's a thing. All right.

Of course he says.

Well, I mean, actually, though, I want to come back to your your meat-eating point of, of, or carnivore point of like, you know, I know you firmly believe, right, that your farm is an ecosystem and you need to have the pieces fitting together, but like your family's an ecosystem too, right? Like, and, and so for me, that's a, a very important fundamental belief in terms of how I try to operate and recognize that, you know, if you have just a farm that's all pigs, it would be like a moonscape nightmare. Yeah, but if you have a farm with no pigs, you might actually have other problems. And so it's like you need to have a balance.

You would have major problems without pigs, Morgan. I'm working on it.

I'm working on it.

You don't have any pigs. Yeah, what do you do with all the dead ducks? Come on, man, you gotta, you gotta feed them something.

So I'll tell you what, no, it's actually good. So dead ducks, um, kind of the chicken feathers, like all the worst of the worst that I'm not going to feed my dog. I'm not going to try to find some sort alternate use for. I actually have spots in the far reaches of the farm because, you know, got 160 acres where I will give them to the wild. Yeah, and that's like, let the coyotes, let the bears have it, you know.

Don't feel shame for that. I feel like there is maybe some shame in that, as in that goes to waste or something, but I think it's the second best choice.

No, I mean, and, you know, I've had many public disputes with, with folks about kind of land management on my farm and bears, but, um, You know, one of the biggest reasons is I believe the wild animals are as important as my geese or cattle. And so making sure that they have space, making sure that they have habitat, and even feeding— like, I have no shame whatsoever. I think a lot of people struggle with that concept, but to me, putting it out there and saying, okay, it's going to the wild, that's part of the tax too. And that's part of— they're part of the farm just as much as I am or my guard dog is.

Yeah. Now, in, in theory, you're feeding the wild animals and they're going to be less hungry and not eat yours. So you're sharing with them. But I like how you took it even deeper. And you're like, well, why not feed the wild animals a little bit?

Well, and it's about—

why do they have to be our enemy?

Yeah, I'm not doing it like I'm feeding them because there's a risk too, right? You don't want to attract wild animals. So not to have it misconstrued that way.

No, no, you're not going out every day and giving them something.

But like, think about it, right? So we're mostly poultry on our farm. And so the poultry means that they spill grain, which means you have mice and rats and other things. And, you know, that means I have barn cats to help manage that population. Also, if I let my mice and rat population get out of control, then, you know, coyotes and bobcats and foxes, that's their primary source of food. And so I, what I want to do is discourage rodents migrating down from the pastures in the woods, coming down to the farm so that they stay up there. So they keep the predators up. Like, it's— that's all part of, like, as I talk about kind of that ecosystem balance of the farm, that's why the wild parts of the farm are really important, or as important.

Yeah, maybe sometimes we need to put our feelings away because you might have had a name for that duck, but really the most eco thing to do is to feed that to the forest as opposed to, like, burying in the ground. Yeah, I mean, I mean, something's going to get in the ground too. I mean, you're feeding the microbiome and micro— life.

But it's all different degrees and different ways to redistribute things. I mean, you want to get to a wide— like, I've told this story in videos before, but, um, the, the reason why I ultimately want to kind of become the farmer and do this is because I, I like— I know how I want to die. So I want to be 104 years old and have my wife pass away quietly in her sleep at age 100. And then I want to go pack myself a sandwich into the walk to the far back reaches of the pasture, sit under a tree, eat my sandwich, wait for a bear to come eat me and have that be the end of it. And I'm just like put back into the, into the farm.

It's like a dream.

That's my, like, I know it sounds horrible and gross and morbid, but like, like I feel like if I got to that place where I'm able to walk to the back pasture at 104 and get eaten by that bear, I've done everything right. And to be returned back to that land, through a bear, I'd also have done everything right.

So, yeah. What kind of sandwich?

That's a detail I've never thought of.

Last meal kind of talk here. Come on, you got to think about this.

Yeah, I probably should.

Come on. Peanut butter and jelly. Is that your classic? Or are you having like a fried chicken sandwich?

Yeah, I don't know.

Reuben?

Some sort of sad turkey sandwich. Just doesn't feel like it would cut it, right? Yeah. Oh, yeah.

You got to go out with Some glory, something maybe that would attract the bear.

Yeah, maybe. Yeah, some like peanut butter and honey. Yeah, yeah, there you go.

So back to the disagreements or whatever. You have a disagreement. Do you— how does it help you to understand the why? So she wants this beauty and you want this practicality. What's that thought process look like when you start to think about her why?

So I think part of it is actually zooming back. So is it an argument about how messy I've got the barn right now? Or is it an argument about her not feeling like the farm is her, like, home as well, and she has that place as well? And me conceding, does that not give her a better way to be connected to the farm? And, and, and like, it's taking her perspective. And I think this gets down to it. It's like, to understand someone else's perspective, you need to understand someone else's why. And so if I know that that's what makes her feel calm and that's what makes her feel happy, like, that becomes a much more motivating why for me to, you know, figure out how to clean up our paths and, you know, keep some of the permaculture orchard from being overgrown. Because that ultimately will make her happier, which makes our farm more cohesive. That, that's motivating for me now. All right, I'm gonna go out there, I'm gonna do the things I need to do to make that happen. And so, but if it was just simply because, oh, this needs to look pretty, and I'm just operating on that and not appreciating the why for my wife, and then ultimately the why for me, like, it's so much harder to get motivated.

Does she think about the why for you?

Oh yeah, most definitely, 100%.

And why is that? I mean, she's kind of person, or you make it very clear.

Yeah. Like, so let me give you an example. She is a private person. She does not want to— like, if it was her choice, we wouldn't be making videos and putting them on the internet, like that sort of thing. Like, like, you know, she occasionally will show up in a video, but like really doesn't like to be on camera. But she knows that, again, back to the idea of like, yeah, I need to feel whole, I need to communicate. For me to feel whole, I need to create. And like, there's been times in our life, like, you know, go back 7, 8 years ago when I was just working a job and I wasn't doing those things where I was pretty unhappy. And she really saw that. And so she sees how the creation makes me so happy. And that's such a core part of who I am. That's where she like, you know, kind of relaxes and like, all right, yeah, go make your dumb videos. Like, it's like, you know, it really does become that. And so I, yeah, I do. I genuinely believe she understands me. Most of my why.

I got in trouble once because I went and made a video and I talked about how I was hurting. It was physically or something. It could have been my reactive arthritis, my Lyme or something. And she approves the videos before they go out. She got so mad. She goes, when I asked you how you were doing, you said you were doing fine. Uh-oh. Don't ever make that mistake.

It's amazing. I mean, yeah, but that's This is where again, so I would never do a lot of live video because I think I would make that sort of misstep a lot. Ah, but nothing I remember. No, no, nothing. But most things I do aren't live. And so to shoot a video and let that be the place where I can be as raw as I possibly be, I don't care what I say. I could say something that could offend to people. I could say something that'd be a horrible thing, you know, to think about. Like this is like me writing in my diary. Like this is, this is that. But then I have to then go edit. I have to then filter. I have to think about how I frame it. I have to craft it into a story. I have to do these things. And so it's not completely unfiltered and raw when people see it.

No.

And so that means I have an accountability to— if I'm feeling something or thinking something that I haven't conveyed to her that I shouldn't say to 100,000 people, but I should say, you know, directly to her first, I will then have that opportunity and luxury between the time I shoot and time I post to do that.

And I think my situation where it was, the video actually went out 'cause sometimes we won't, she won't approve it before it goes out. So it's like already 200 or 300 people, oh, you know, giving me pity or something.

Yeah, man, I don't know how you do the schedule you do.

You know, I used to get, it was hard when she used to edit. You were talking about this raw, and she would get these raw clips, and she is also very kind, so she's, she can edit good, but I'll say she's not a good editor because you're too kind. You have to be brutal. It makes it better to cut, but if you're a kind person, you can't cut.

Murder your darlings, baby.

And especially if she's like editing somebody else, she's editing me, and I'm having this raw spill. And then she gets mad at me because I didn't say it right or this and that. And I'm just like, I just cut that part. But she can't cut it because she's too nice. See what I'm saying? So people could get into this. Does your wife approve the videos before they go out?

No, I— there are sometimes a video that I'll make where I think she's really going to want to see it or comment on it or, or have that, but it's like, it's— I make the call, do I— hey, do I want to pre-screen it with her or not? But it's not like— she probably doesn't watch half the videos, to be honest.

Yeah, but you're doing a little TikTok on about returning the pie plate to the— this Californian, she don't need to approve that. Right. Now, if you started talking about this, I bet she approved that one where you talked about your, your crush. Yeah, that passed away.

That's when I—

hey, that one could be a little sensitive.

Yeah. Or the video— I mean, I actually made a video like explaining to people why they don't see her around the farm much.

And like, yes, she probably needs to see that.

Yeah, I absolutely showed her that beforehand. Yeah, no, but, but yeah, me explaining how I put cameras on animals. No, like, it's not necessary.

Does it— so it sounds like she's supportive of this. It's just that she wouldn't— she doesn't necessarily want to be on the video.

Oh, she's 100% supportive. Yeah, no, it's— she doesn't like to be— like, it's personality difference, right? Whereas, you know, I'm comfortable in front of a whole bunch of people on stage, you know, like, I kind of like to perform, right? Like, I have that sort of like vibe to me. And, and so she gets that she's like that, and I get that she's, you know, doesn't like to be the center of attention. And so, you know, don't try to force that on the other person. I think that's an important thing to try to balance.

I noticed you've done something here. You, you, um, when you told me you, you don't have kids, you said by choice. So that to me is saying you're, you're giving me context. When you said you, you social distance You then really quickly gave me, you gave me the why. You started talking about how she is working in the hospital. And so that's going to not only disarm me or somebody else, it's giving context where you come from.

Yeah, I think that's so important.

It sets it up to have an easy disagreement with you.

Look, I don't expect most people to agree with what I see, but I do expect people not to like What I hate the most is when people like other me, right? Where it's like, you're, you're, it's one of these people. He's one of this thing. He's, he's this thing. Not, I'm not a person who might be thinking about things differently than you, which 100% can happen. But he's like, it's like he's one of those city folk who does this and like, you know, or he's one of those YouTubers. Like, I hate that. But like, you know, people who disagree with me, but they know where I'm coming from. All day. And so I want to try to make it as easy for people to do that as possible. And I know I have a responsibility to make it easy for people to understand and not be ambiguous. I think like that clear communication is important.

Yeah, you have to work on, on getting your why out there, and you have— and you, and you work on understanding their why.

I try to do my best, very best, you know. I mean It's like, uh, I'd probably do a poor job at times for sure and such, but, uh, I do try to do my best. I mean, I don't know how much— like, I've had a lot of drama with bearhound hunters around my farm. And, um, I saw that, you know, after my initial couple of dust-ups and incidents, I've made it a point to go out bearhound hunting and like spend the morning like going out with hound hunters and seeing how they do it and understand why because I feel like I had— I can't be out there regularly criticizing them without at least taking a, maybe not a mile, but a quarter-mile walk in their shoes. And so that's, that's where it comes from.

So this, this is for those that people don't know, and, uh, you've had bear hunting dogs get on your property, and in Vermont that's actually illegal, or no, it's legal.

It's legal.

So yeah, so it's actually legal.

Yeah, so the way it works is, you know, Bear hounding is legal in Vermont in certain times of year, and so is raccoon hounding. I've had issues where hounders have, or hounds have pursued animals onto my property, and I don't want that. But, but the rules of pursuit say if their animal's in pursuit, they're allowed to do that. They're allowed to go get in there, retrieve their animals, all that. And so it's sort of in the state of Vermont, sparked up a debate over the last 6 months or so. You know, kind of driven by some incidents that happened on my farm.

Really? Yeah. Host— the whole statewide—

statewide—

your farm?

Oh yeah. Oh yeah.

This happened on your farm. You talked about this on your channels?

Yeah. Oh yeah. I've made it. I've made a few videos about it. I've, you know, gotten praised in some levels, criticized, like the Meat Eater podcast. I'm speaking carnivore, like, you know, they, they hit me pretty hard a couple of weeks ago about it.

Wow.

Because, you know, I think it's weird because I'm a hunter. I hunt deer, I hunt turkey. I have bagged many a varmint. Like, you know, that's, you know, I'm totally fine with it. I believe that, you know, back to that, hey, we're an ecosystem. Sometimes you need to have predators in your ecosystem and sometimes the human needs to be the predator. But I also don't think actually need to hunt bear. And I actually think the disruption that bear causes on the land is really important to the ecosystem. You know, they're almost the equivalent of pigs in sort of a more traditional forest context in terms of the disruption and disturbance they cause. Um, so by my choice, if I'm the one responsible for this farm and managing it, I want to say, no, I don't want people hunting bear on my land. But based on the laws, like, that's not the case. And so that's, that's what's spun up the debate for sure.

Did you— you said you actually tried to experience bear hunting so you could put yourself in it. How'd you do that?

So, um, after I put out the first couple of videos, uh, a guy actually on the other side of the state said, you know, I think you got it wrong, but I'd love to take you out and give you a chance to kind of see what it's like and why it's important to my family. And I just jumped at the opportunity. I mean, like, like, yes, man, please. I'd love to, because I think like, again, walking that step in his shoes and seeing how this is a family tradition, it's something he does with his son and his wife and how it's like a more Saturday morning ritual for them at a certain time of year where they're going through sweeping cornfields for bear. And like why it's so great and why it has that heritage. I got to experience that and I see it and I understand the why. It doesn't mean I believe that that is more important than my private property rights, but I understand where bear hounders are coming from. I understand why they do what they do, why they might have passion for it, why they might see some guy like me as some liberal idiot city guy coming in and disrupting their way of life. And so I think that that was an important thing to do.

And it helped you?

Helped me 100%. Yeah.

Yeah. You're still, you're still for the cause, for your cause. But, but, uh, how'd that help you then?

Well, I've softened my point of view. I came out, I came out guns a-blazin'. So I had two incidents. First incident was actually the middle of the night. Raccoon hounders were actually going through like my front yard. Like wake up, you know, dog, my guard dog's going crazy. My geese are going crazy. Like what's going on here? And I have like a pack of dogs and dudes with flashlights walking through. Um, and, and so that was one incident. Then another incident where a bear hounder treed a bear on my farm and like came to me. So to his credit, he came to me, but then I recorded going to retrieve it and put that out there. Um, you know, kind of in those instances, I was basically saying, hey, we got to stop bear hounding or hound hunting, pursuit hound hunting in Vermont. Um, but then after kind of experiencing it, what I've been pushing for now is essentially saying, No, you just gotta have control of your dog. Like, you can't be 2 miles away from your dog and say you have control. You can't go on private property where you don't have permission. Like, you know, and trying to find a way where it's, again, compromise.

You went with them. I had— I would have had this question after watching your video: how do they control their dog? Um, and you went with them, so how do they? I don't know.

Yeah, so, you know, it's, it's mostly training, but it's actually pursuit. They don't— I mean, I will argue they don't have control of their dog. And so this is where, you know, I see a different point of view just from that experience. You know, they typically are going to put a GPS collar on their dog and set the dog loose. And typically they'll be in their truck and have like an iPad screen mounted to the dash and the iPad screen. You can see like little dots moving around, going in different areas. And usually I think the limit in Vermont is 6 dogs that you can set out at once. And they're watching where they're going, seeing where the scent is. They'll let them loose in one spot, follow them around, maybe pick them up again, go to another spot, follow them around. And so it's more that they're pursuing their dogs than controlling their dogs. Their dogs are going to go where they think they should go based on scent. Yeah, which is— which gets to my argument against it, which gets to why I'm uncomfortable with something like that, to say like, well, you know, you're just kind of letting it loose and hoping for the best. There's all sorts of things that could go wrong. You know, I'm lucky because my most of my poultry area is fenced in with like a 5-foot-high fence and I got a guard dog, so it keeps my birds safe. But I could easily see my duck setup from 3 years ago becoming like hound food very easily. And, and so, you know, I'm kind of sympathetic to that as well.

Yeah. So people could shoot a bear on your property or not?

They could. Um, at least now technically because of some of the things I've done, they can't, but at certain times, like when I had the incidents that happened in August and September, they could.

And then what I mean by that, that they can in Vermont— oh yeah, somebody's not set up or put up certain restrictions, you can go on other people's property and shoot.

Yeah, well, Vermont's got weird posting laws too, so, um, weird, different than a lot of other places in that most land is assumed, uh, open for hunting unless it's posted that it's not. And to be properly posted. So like, I posted my land when I first bought the farm, but then you have to update all your signage every year, and you have to have a sign every 400 feet along the perimeter and at all corners. And so I had like updated my signs like the spring of 2020 and had incidents in the summer and early fall of 2021. And so by virtue just of that window, as well as you know, you're tacking, you know, signs to a tree with a stapler. Squirrels, wind, vandals, those all can break it open and then make you not compliant with being posted. So there's a lot of burden on the landowner to post. And I mean, now I'm like meticulous about it.

But based on experiences, how do you refresh a post? It's no different. It's the same sign.

You just, you have to go on and date it.

Oh, you have to date it.

And you have to go to the town clerk's office.

Oh my.

And register with the town clerk each year.

Is this how it is in all the states?

No, no. This is, like I said, this is a unique Vermont thing.

Hmm. Wow. Okay. Back to the end. We just keep, we've gone forward and now we're going to keep backing up. The NFT thing, I said to you, as a, because you had said before the show, Oh, I don't know if the internet's ready for this. You were probably meaning the homestead, or I don't even know if your audience is homesteaders. Are they? They're just like—

I think some of my audience are, I think some aren't. Um, I think most of my audience really cares about animals and, and doing the right thing by animals. I think most of my audience likes a good story. I think they're curious, at the very least curious about farms. Um, yeah, but I don't think I actually have Like if I compared my audience to what I perceive as your audience, I think it's probably less like true full-on home sellers.

You keep saying, you keep referring to stories and maybe that's where I was getting at with your, I'm not having kids by choice. You just told a story. If you say, I'm not having kids, there's an open loop there, Morgan, and people don't know the end of the story. But you quickly took that open loop and closed it. You told a story right there in that. And then when we talked about the social distancing, you quickly talked about your— when you're giving these whys and your wife working in the hospital, you're also giving a story. So maybe in some ways these stories are disarming people.

Possibly. I just love telling stories.

And they're certainly giving the why.

Yeah, I, I mean, I, I love reading. I love listening to stories. I love watching things. Stories are so— always been so important to me since, you know, I don't know, probably forever.

What's the last story you read?

Um, last story I read, um, I guess, you know, just even coming over here, I was listening to a podcast, um, all about, uh, Bart Simpson mania from, uh, you know, like early '90s, right? And, and, uh, just, it was, it was a woman who kind of went through and broke it all down and told the whole story of that and like how it was a culturally important point in the, in our country's history and sort of how it sort of set up a pivot for a lot of things. And it was a good story.

Bart Simpson still around? Simpson's still going?

Of course. Oh, oh, I forget. You live in a time capsule.

No, I know. I used Used to really like The Simpsons, but then I don't know, it's not as good to me as it used to be. I went into a time capsule.

Well, it's funny. So actually, Matt Groening, who's the guy who created The Simpsons, okay, he was the guy who first motivated me to like start drawing comics. And it wasn't because of The Simpsons. He actually wrote this book, like it was a collection of comic strips called School is Hell. And it was just like this, like, little—

School is Hell.

School is Hell. He had a whole series. Love is Hell. Work is Hell. I forget, but like School is Hellish, you know, when you're a 10-year-old or 11-year-old and you discover that in the bookstore and you're like, these things look like The Simpsons. I'm curious about this book. And like that book just sort of like blew my mind and like it got me motivated to draw comics. It got me to being kind of a person who was sort of like a little bit anti-authoritarian streak, like really ratcheted up a level. But yeah, it all came from Matt Groening.

Uh, what were you— what was the last story you watched?

Uh, that's a good one.

You got Netflix?

Uh, yeah, I'm trying to— yeah, we do have Netflix. Oh, you know what, Boba Fett. Uh, oh yeah, oh yeah, yeah, yeah.

That's what you like, the sci-fi stuff?

Uh, I mean, I don't know, I've just always been a big Star Wars fan. I like sci-fi, I like a mix of stuff. Um, Letterkenny is probably my favorite current TV show right now.

Um, and do you ever talk about this on your, on your—

I don't talk about it, but I put— so I think one of my things a lot of my videos are known for is I add clips to like everything.

Yeah.

And so, so I don't like— I'm not going to be like, hey, let me tell you about this thing I saw on Letterkenny, but I might say something and then cut a 3-second clip from Letterkenny into it. That I do all the time.

I'm not being rude. I'm actually looking up a screenshot. I wanted to ask you about it because you asked this, doing a little research going into this. You had asked your audience for questions that you were going to do a little Q&A. Okay. And it was all about ducks. And that's when I had to text you, Morgan, we're probably not going to talk about ducks. Do you care? Do you love to talk about ducks?

I love talking about the animals.

Oh, for sure.

Ducks, geese. Are you disappointed?

Are you disappointed we're not talking about ducks? No, no. You know, it's funny though.

I think a lot of people think of me as being known for ducks. I actually would say that the animal I know the most about and most passionate about is goose, because I actually think it's like the most sustainable form of poultry. They are amazing for the land, like, yeah, love their personalities. Yeah, I'm a big goose guy.

Do you do a Christmas goose?

Uh, actually this year we didn't because I sold out of them.

But you have— you are a farmer.

We had a—

you are a farmer.

We had a cull duck instead.

Where is this? So do you, but you like to eat duck?

Oh yeah.

I mean goose.

Both.

Yeah. Which one do you like better?

Probably goose. I mean, I find meat-wise they're pretty similar. I think the difference is it's just one's chicken scale and one's turkey scale.

So I was going to go through these. I wanted to ask you some of these questions these people asked you. All right. I mean, I skipped through all the duck one. Not that I have a problem. I got no problems with ducks. Um, it's just, I think I like— I think we're more than that. That's where I'm going with my homesteading lately, is we're more than just food growers. Homesteading is a lifestyle that includes— we like to watch the Olympics. They're on right now, you know, so it's probably TiVo in it over there or whatever it is. And, um, Seinfeld came to Netflix, and so that's kind of exciting.

That's actually, that, you know, that's been one of my comfort shows. Like when I'm dead tired and I don't want to do anything, you know, an old episode of Seinfeld, that's always good.

Yeah. Okay. I circled some of these. Would you ever accept free help?

Um, probably in very limited instances. Yes. But fundamentally no. There's actually a couple of reasons why.

So, so you're a why man. I'm going to give you the why. Yeah.

Like I think just a short answer would be insufficient. So number one, I actually think that it's important to pay people. And, and, and, you know, particularly if you think about like farm work, if farm work has value and you're leveraging primarily, I'm not saying nobody can ever help you out ever, but primarily a free labor source in all times. Like, you know, I have like viewers volunteering. Um, I actually think that that is doing a disservice to farm workers. I think, you know, then the other thing is, I don't know, I just, I find it like it's hard to teach and do.

Yeah.

And I struggle doing both at the same time.

They went on to say, someone who would just like to spend 3 days of helping you for general work on your farm, would you do that? I don't think 3 days is helpful. You'll spend 3 days training them.

Exactly. Like a 3-month internship, I could see being more open to doing, um, a 3-day or a week. Like that's, I think you're exactly right. It's like I would be showing you what to do. I'd have to be doing everything with you and it'd probably take me 30% longer to do that versus me just going my most efficient autopilot or me doing it while I shoot a video. And so, yeah, it'd become a net negative.

Would this be a paid internship then?

Oh, I 100% would believe in a paid internship. I would not—

What would you pay an hour? Or is that how you would structure it?

I think that's tough because, I mean, the question is, does it include housing and does it not? What's the current market rates? I think right now when you think about hiring folks, it's harder than it has ever been, at least in my lifetime, to peg like what's a good salary for something. Um, because supply and demand.

Are you gonna hire somebody this summer?

Um, I don't know. I don't think I necessarily need it, especially I'm full-time. But I actually, I would like to. And the reason I'd like to is I— it's hard to leave the farm, and I think there's more things I'd like to try to do where I can like leave for a day or two. Not like everyone leave.

Yeah, you had to hire a farm sitter to come down here, right?

Exactly.

You have to hustle back and then hustle back.

And like, so to have somebody who's regularly working on the farm and helping with me. I think one, it would help me scale up the farmer farm faster, but then two, it becomes somebody I can actually rely on a little bit better.

I like you said that, scale the farm faster, because I was about to say to you, because you told me earlier your farm profited $7,500. That's really good going into like 2 years. I mean, you can't live on that, but that's good that you're not losing $75,000, let alone $7,500. You're actually earning after expenses, not counting land, $7,500, something like that. So this is how a lot of people look at hiring people. How can you afford to hire somebody if you only bring it in $7,500? You nailed it. And people have asked me, how do you afford, let's say we had somebody helping us in the house after we got back from the Great American Farm Tour. How do you afford Anna? That's how I afford Anna. Because then, like you said, that farm worker helps you scale and suddenly you're not making $7,500 that you had to pay them out of. They've scaled you to $70,000.

Yes.

And then you can give them a fine salary.

Exactly. And it's recognized like What does now that now let you do? So if I have somebody, for example, doing all my, I wouldn't structure it this way, but just for, for argument's sake, doing all my duck stuff and I had somebody doing all of that and I could make it work between the hatching eggs I sell and the eggs I sell and the meat I sell. Like if I could make that all work and having somebody hired, which if you look at the numbers, that's not gonna work. But if I did that, I could then just focus on the cattle and expanding out the cattle situation.

Yeah.

Yeah. Um, that would help me. Or, okay, I gotta fence in 30 acres of pasture this spring. You know, if I hire somebody to help me do that, am I able to get that done in a week? And then I can make, you know, a couple more things and do a couple more projects, which will then help me, whether it's be able to make more videos or add more animals or something like that. Does that free me up to do it? That's how I feel like I have to think about it. And so like, I, I do pretty strictly like a P&L. For multiple levels of my profit and loss for multiple levels of my farm. So I have everything altogether, which includes money that comes in from like social media content or, or that sort of thing. But then I need to look at each enterprise. And so the goose enterprise, the duck enterprise, the tree operation, which is actually one of my most profitable things I do, like those each have to like sort of work or not on their own merits. And then I kind of bring it all together.

Is, is the content creation the biggest one?

By far.

It's your centerpiece. Do you have a problem with content creation being the centerpiece of your farm?

Yeah. I mean, problem's not the right way to— if you want to talk about things you feel embarrassed about or a little sheepish about. Yeah. I mean, cause it's not what I set out to do. Like, no, no. When I set out to do all this, my, my vision was I want to have a farm, like a, like a good operating small farm. I always like knew, oh, I wanna use social media to help me market my farm. And so when I have products to sell, I have an audience to sell. That's where it all started from. And, and, and so that's how I got started. And, and what I mean, like if I'm gonna be really blunt, honest about myself, I am a better video maker and storyteller than I am a farmer. I'm still very much learning as a farmer, but I think that those two things are very they, they work together. And so that's, it's what works for me. I don't think it works for everybody though.

You told me earlier though, you don't make content around drawing and cartoons because you don't feel like you're good at it. But now you're telling me you're not good at farming, but you're making content surrounding that.

What made you push through? That's not what I said though. So what I said was, I don't make comics because I'm not good at making comics. I make videos because I think I'm good at making videos.

Yeah.

I'm learning to be a farmer and I make videos about learning to be a farmer. So, so I could, I could see I could make videos about making comics, but the comic unto itself doesn't stand alone. Is it good enough in my eyes?

That's, that's, you didn't feel like you were a good enough drawer.

Yeah.

You went to art school and it kind of set you back. So now you feel like it's okay. Okay. So that's what helped you push through. To make content around farming is that I'm going to make content around my learning curve.

Because I think a lot of other people— back to that, back again, back to a why, right? I believe the world needs more small farmers. And I think for people to see that you can go into this without an agricultural background and you can learn what you need to do and, you know, take those steps, and you're not going to be perfect, you're going to make mistakes— I think showing that's really important to motivate more small farmers.

Have you done that?

I think so. I mean, I, I get, you know, emails and letters from kids who are interested in starting farms now because they watch our videos. I get from adults who are working to— even if it's not as a farm, but like just a homestead scale, I get those sorts of messages all the time. And so that's some of the most gratifying communication I can possibly get in seeing that, for sure.

Does it make it— does it make you as happy as you imagined you would be if you inspired somebody?

Oh, more so. Yeah, I, I, again, back to the why did I start making videos? I started making videos to make it easier to sell duck eggs. Yeah, like, you know, like, so that's an order of magnitude in terms of value. I feel like that's, you know, leaps and bounds above just selling duck eggs.

Yeah, well, when I saw your early content, uh, I knew you were going places.

Oh, now you're going to make me blush.

Because it's so good. I mean, it's funny. It's a good story. You put a lot of effort into it. There's a lot of folks not putting the effort in and you can maybe still get traction, but you have put in the hard work and are going places with it. You're going to actually— I'm surprised it took you this long to quit your day job.

I, you know, it's cuz I, I mean, look, I, I feel like I had a very good day job.

Ah.

And, and so to, to a certain extent, kind of golden handcuffs, but also, um, I've, so up until 3 weeks ago, I've always had a job working for somebody from, from age 16 when I started bagging or actually working as a cashier and then getting demoted to bagging groceries through college. I had jobs working for people. Immediately after college, I actually skipped my college graduation to go work a job. I have always quit one job to immediately start another job my entire adult life. And so, the prospect of being self-employed was 100% terrifying to me. And so, I needed to get to a point, I think, where it was just not going to be sustainable to keep trying to do it all. And that's what ultimately pushed me to actually take the leap.

That's probably a pretty safe way to go about it, huh?

Yeah.

I mean, or did you wreck yourself? Did you wreck your, your health?

No, but I could see, like, I could see how I was just running on fumes by the end of 2021 and seeing the things I wanted to do, even being like one level above that. I mean, like, yeah, this isn't going to work. Yeah.

All right. Do you find yourself self-disciplined now that you don't have a job and you actually have more time?

Yeah, almost overly so.

Okay.

Like, I remember my friend, like this, this, like I said, this is week 3. My first like 2 weeks, I had like Google calendars that were pretty much scheduled from like, you know, 6:00 AM every morning all the way to like, you know, about 8:30 at night. And I'm like, dude, what are you doing, man? You can, you don't have to do this.

Was that, was that a fear? Because you're stepping out in entrepreneurship. Oh my gosh, I gotta really hustle.

I mean, I, you know, a little bit of fear, a little bit of knowing me, like, you know, I need structure. Like, I, you know, I was always like, you know, I got sent to Catholic school to give me structure, right? Like I got like, you know, kind of like help me make sure I didn't like go off path. And so, you know, probably a little bit of fear, probably also recognizing myself a little bit. And so I've tried to relax it a little bit, but I still try to like, all right, I'm gonna schedule time for myself to go work out, or I'm gonna schedule time for myself to, now just write. And now I'm going to schedule time for me to shoot this next video or edit. And so I do try to block out chunks just to give my day structure just because I, out of habit, need it.

Were you a natural? Are you a natural entrepreneur?

I don't know. I mean, like I just confessed, I never really worked for anybody. Not work for somebody.

It sounds like maybe this wasn't— it didn't sound like you're in your heart an entrepreneur trying to find away, it sounds like you saw this problem and you wanted to inspire farmers, small farmers, and it seems like you've discovered that entrepreneur is the best way to do that.

Yeah, I think I'm more of a creator than an entrepreneur. Like, I think I'm a very creative person. I love creating things, and I'm very good at inspiring myself and even others to like help me make stuff. Um, I don't know if I'm like entrepreneurial-minded, but I also have, you know, like worked a lot for a number of years in business. And so that helps me understand what you need to do to actually have a good business.

Yeah. You mentioned a Catholic school there. I, I've, we had Brandon Sheard on the, on the podcast, big-time Catholic guy. Darcia Sabella, uh, you've ever heard of her? She's got a minimalist channel. Not familiar on YouTube. And, uh, just visited them in Florida. One thing about that is, I don't know if it's a Catholic thing, but what's interesting and intriguing about that lifestyle is it does seem to bring order. It brought something to where they center their life around, and it's something, although I'm not Catholic, I could appreciate.

Yeah, well, so I'm not Catholic. I mean, so, uh, my mother is Catholic. My father's Jewish. And so like, I was always raised kind of like, you know, I had Christmas and I had Hanukkah and it was sort of like, you know, kind of like balance it all out. And like, you know, you know, you know, we weren't very, we were pretty, you know, non-religious family. Um, I got sent to Catholic school as like a discipline and like almost exactly what you're describing. Cause it was like my parents, like both of them were like, nah, he needs this. Um, so, so, you know, that's there and just, you know, it was good cuz kind of I got to see something culturally up close, you know, read the Bible multiple times, got that kind of experience. But then, you know, as an adult today, I'm just, I'm definitely a devout agnostic where I just kind of see the world and believe, how can you know how, like, you know, I can completely respect that other people have like super strong faith. Like, it's funny, I was just staying with my friends, uh, uh, Jessica Sowards and Jeremiah, uh, down in South Carolina from Roots and Refuge and like, You know, they are very, very religious people, very devout, very committed to, you know, living a life in Christ. Like that's, they're super passionate about that. I'm not, but we can be good friends and talk about those things. Even, and again, it gets back to like the respect and understanding that, you know, I might not see the world they see it and vice versa. And so I don't know that my view's right. I don't know anybody's view's right. I don't believe that you can like lock in So that's just how I see the world personally.

And there you go again, giving me context. You say— you didn't just say you're agnostic. You said you're a devout agnostic.

Which is— I say that with irony, right? Because like, okay, I'm somebody who doesn't know what it all is.

You almost said evangelical agnostic.

I actually should say that. That's a better line. That's better than devout agnostic.

You're trying to spread the agnostic faith or lack of.

Yeah.

So help me out. Agnostic is there is a God, but he's not involved in our lives.

I'm also— maybe I'm not agnostic then. So maybe not even that evangelical. I believe— I don't know. I mean, I imagine there are much greater things than me for sure. But what or how or what shape or form, I have no idea. I doubt I'll ever be able to know. Let me just focus on living my life of treating people with kindness and doing the right thing and maybe leaving the world a little bit better place than when I found it. Like, if I just focus there, I don't know. Like, if you look at most religions, right, you know, that those are generally some important tenets. And so I just kind of focus there. I don't know. And I don't try to invest too much time and energy in figuring it out.

Yeah. So you're not quite evangelical agnostic yet then to say you haven't figured it out. They're probably not going to be evangelical. Yeah. So, but them having a daily mass or weekly mass or something they go to and center themselves around, uh, Darcy having, uh, acknowledged like there's a saint for every day, this like every other day, but yeah, the centerpiece, that's something that's appealing. And, uh, of course there, there might be some drawbacks, but you can't just, uh, being appealed and drawn to having this centerpiece that is like higher, it feels higher, loftier, bigger meaning or something. I thought about it in my own life. Well, what's, what's the centerpiece for you? For, you know, well, it's the family cow, I guess, but that doesn't seem quite as—

our daily milk.

No, really, like our life— if Brandon sees to it that they go to daily Mass and center their life around it, like he really talks about centering his life around that, well, we center our life around the family cow. Give us this daily bread. Yeah, I call my bank account— my nickname for my bank account is not bread, and our business bank account is not bread and butter, it's beef and butter.

Yeah, right.

And that's what the family cow gives us.

Yeah. I mean, so, so I, I actually agree with the role of ritual and how important that is.

Yeah.

However you might find that it works best for you personally. Like, I, I actually think that my life has been the happiest because I have the ritual of my chores. Like, and I'm sure you find this too, like, you know, going out and having things that I do as ritual that I'm like, you know, always saying hi to Toby Dog the same way. And I get to like greet the barn cats and the ducks. I'm always saying, release the quacking. Like, those are— and again, I don't mean to equate this and offend people saying like, oh, I think this is religion unto itself, but there's something so soothing of having ritual. Even the last couple days where I've been visiting friends and having a great time, there's a certain chunk of me that's kind of happy to be going back home very soon so that the next morning I can get up and do the farm, because that's like where I feel my most comfort. And that ritual is such a good sort of centerpiece for, for my day-to-day. I, I think there is something in that.

Yeah, ritual is a good word for it, you know, as they explore this and think about our own lives. And maybe even another, yet another possible positive for homesteading is that you, you get these rituals that, uh, you know, maybe you feel comfortable with or that are super practical. Uh, talk about a practical ritual— milking a cow.

You know, it's funny because so, so the last 3 places I've been, so I'm here where obviously you're a devout cow milker, evangelical, evangelical. Absolutely. Yeah. You know, I was just down with, with Megan, Ben Holler for a night hanging out with them and they just recently got a milk cow and Jess and Jeremiah, they just got milk cows as well, multiples. And I got to say, like, seeing that in action, ah, my gears are turning.

I'm like, yeah, I'm telling you, I, I, I, it's been amazing. I'm telling you, I say pigs for everyone, but it's got to be the cow for everyone. Because listen, as things—

the pig—

I got to tell you this, these last 2 years has awakened me to, well, supply chain issues. There's gonna be a, a grain supply chain issue. Why wouldn't there be? Yeah, there's gonna— that's not cuckoo talk anymore, what I just said. Supply chain issues, that entered our vernacular in the last 2 years. That was never in our vernacular. Social distancing.

Go 3 or 4 years ago. 3 or 4 years ago, right? You have, it was like just-in-time supply chain was like a buzzword you would hear. Go back 4 years ago. Now it's like, it's a cause of anxiety.

Corona beer. Sales drop.

Yeah, is that even on the market anymore? I don't even know.

Uh, so another one is, so there's supply chain issues, there's, uh, social distancing. These are all new terms. These are, uh, oh, uh, food shortages that entered our vernacular. I mean, um, so where was I going with that? The, um, oh, it's gonna happen with grain. I mean, But it's not gonna happen with grass. The sun is gonna keep shining. I mean, if the sun quits shining, we got way bigger problems. We're all screwed. But the grass grows, and a cow can thrive 100% on the grass. You know, the pig, you need the grain. The chickens, you need the grain. But a cow doesn't. So that's why we're expanding our pastures. We're cutting into the forest. That's so, uh, that's why we're eating more, more beef and more lamb and, and focusing there. Because look, look, Morgan, don't get me started. The cow, you go out, we'll get 2, 3 gallons of milk from a couple of cows that are 100% on grass. Morgan, that's, that's 16— I shouldn't do math in public. That's what she said earlier. That's like up to 24 pounds of food.

Completely.

I didn't need to put it in a jar. I didn't need to put it in a freezer. I just went out there and harvested. And actually, I learned as being a carnivore, we would not only survive, we would thrive if it came to that and we had to only drink cow's milk. Yeah, well, so we talk about save a lot of time.

Oh no, I mean, I think, I think you're right about that. I think the other thing I'd throw out, so two things that I know you touch on occasionally, but I would say Wow. I'd love to see you talking about it more. One are geese.

Yeah.

Because back to, you know, poultry, right? And you're the chicken ninja master and all that good stuff. You know, geese are— my geese are in the summer months are getting about 90% of their diet from the pasture. And so when I think about what's a more sustainable form of poultry, there's nothing better than the goose. Like, because while they're not technically ruminants, they're acting like ruminants essentially. And so I would throw that one out there. And then the other one is perennial tree crops. Like I think, and I think, you know, one of the best things we grow on our farm are trees. And while it's probably the least interesting and least sexy content I make, and, you know, I don't put enough videos out just because it's just not engaging people. Tree geeking, I think, is the most important thing from a farm business perspective. My most profitable thing I do is growing trees from a, you know, farm future perspective. The fact that I have like 600 trees that are mixed between mulberry and apple and chestnut and butternut and, and black locust, like that to me is such an important part of the future of my farm that if I can have those perennial tree crops, then I have something to go along with the milk essentially. And, and I think that that's an important thing.

It sounds like that's something that's going to be important for small farms. So it does sound like you need to make that content, whether it's going to be popular or not.

I do, I do probably about a half dozen chestnut videos a year, like, because actually that's the, probably the tree I'm most passionate about. Um, but you also can't just jam the vegetables down people's throat or they'll never eat it.

I'm gonna just read these titles, and if you want to tell an interesting story around these You go for it. Should I feed my dog eggs? Don't trust this duck. My homestead is a dumpster fire. What does my guard dog do all day? So you go off on one of those.

Yeah, so my homestead is a dumpster fire is something I often feel like, and I think a lot of people do it. I mean, Jason, I'm sure you have like, and it's just like, you feel this sometimes, right? And you're like, oh, this is the case. But when it comes down to it, I think everybody feels that to a certain extent sometimes. And so it's just kind of putting that out there in a video, that was always important to me.

This was from an article that these are possible videos that you were going to make. Yeah, this was 2 years ago, this article.

Yeah.

Did you make that video?

I think I made that video in like 3 or 4 forms, even though I didn't end up with that.

You're really riding that wave.

Oh yeah, oh yeah.

What'd you call it? You called it a series.

Yeah.

So you might not do the EFT, uh, the NFT series. I don't think I ever went back to that comment. So we should probably go there real quick before I get to these questions. The NFT stuff, uh, I said to you, because you're like, I don't know if the internet's ready for this, and I said, well, uh, you might not want to read those right now, you want, you want to keep your heart happy or something like that before we go into the show. But it didn't seem, it didn't seem to bother you. Are people, are people adamantly against EFT, NFTs, or are they— you can tell where I can stand on it, I don't even know the acronym for it. The, uh, or or they don't know what it is, or they're afraid and adamantly against it.

I think afraid and adamantly against it and don't know what it is, like sort of a swirl of all of them. And like I said, I think in some levels there's awfulness about NFTs, like NFTs that are built on proof-of-work blockchains. So like Ethereum, which I know it's getting way probably deeper than we want to get on this topic, but like those types of things are ecological nightmares. So there's a whole aspect of NFTs that can be horrible in terms of the amount of energy they consume to essentially mint and produce more NFTs is awful. But there's also versions of that technology that aren't like that at all. And, you know, some NFTs can be minted for the cost of about 2 Google searches. And so like the amount of energy people have expended just listening to this podcast is significantly higher than, you know, a whole collection of NFTs. So, so I think there is some myth to it. I think though there's other elements where it's just, it's something new people don't understand. And so are they not ready for it or not? And, and why it doesn't get me down to hear people criticizing something like that, something that I've like been very curious at a rabbit hole I've jumped down over the last month, is because I wanted to know what other people think and I wanted to get a sense of it. And I got that answer. That was my fundamental. I was trying to get to the you know, kind of would this make sense or not? And the answer is no, it doesn't make sense. And I'll embrace that and move forward from there. And so, so that's why it doesn't get me down to see like people like criticizing or going after something, because I, I feel like, well, now I know.

And you're not personally attached to it, don't sound like.

No, I don't. I try to avoid too much about it. Yeah, I mean, like, and I know this actually can sometimes be unhealthy, but I try to not get— take things too personally, just in general.

Do you avoid personal topics where if people commented on it, it would just break your heart?

No, because I almost want to dig into it and say, well, why does it break my heart? Let me get into that.

Have you gotten into that with an ugly comment and be like, why is this hurting me so bad?

Oh yeah, yeah, yeah. I think like the, the, the whole— I made a video a few months back about like 10 things people hate about me.

Where you did that?

Yeah. Where I just broke down probably the 10 biggest categories that I get.

How'd that video do?

It did good. Not, not like It's not like a million view video, but like it, it, it did good. Like it's not, I wasn't like, oh, I'm disappointed I made this, but it was actually very cathartic. And the connection I actually feel like I was able to make with people who also struggle with those things, like I'm disorganized, I have ADHD, I'm overweight.

Like these things, these are all the things, these things that you, these are things that people pointed out, people throw pig poop at you all the time over.

And it's like, well, let me talk about it. And it almost disarms it. Mm-hmm. And then you find a connection with other people over feeling they feel like that too sometimes. That to me is like, I think that's way more powerful than, you know, having to like, you know, let me put my feelings aside cuz it's a little too raw.

Do you think that helps just to address it like that? Yeah. That helps you. Oh, it makes me, that helps your heart.

Yeah. Completely. Cuz then I feel like it's not a source of shame. It's a, it's, it's, it's what it is. I, I think, um, you gotta be careful, right? Like I, I heard people say you should tell stories about Scars and not wounds. So like, if you're right in the middle of something, you probably shouldn't like put it all the way out there because you don't really— you haven't truly processed it. Once you process something and come comfortable with it, to tell you about the scar I have in my ankle from this crazy accident I had in college, like, I'm fine to tell. I'd love to tell that story. Um, like, you know, just talk about a health problem I might theoretically have, like, yeah, you know, maybe I don't want to talk about it right this second because I'm not sure even how I feel about it. I think you do have to draw that line.

Yeah. And you do draw that line.

Yeah. Yeah.

Did you agree with everybody in those 10, those 10 statements about them, or did you debunk them?

I think some of them I debunked, some of them it's fact. Like, you know, am I overweight? Yeah, I'm overweight. Like, that's a fact. Like, you know, does that mean somebody should dislike me? No, they can go pound sand and I'm happy to like push that off. Am I a, you know, like here's one that like, I think actually probably cuts me the most is the fake farmer label. Like you just are doing this farm to make videos like that, like, and not actually seeing it the other way around. That always hurts, but it also is something where I can like confront it and say, but that's not true. And, and I don't like some person who's, you know, angry and pounding away in the comments of a video. Like that is how they feel. It's, you know, it's, you know, something that's like, which is like, I should have more empathy for them versus take it personally on my end.

Would it be so bad if you were just making videos? I think about your farm.

I've, I've actually, since I've quit my job to just do this stuff, I've become much more comfortable with it where it's like, you know, you know, back to that point of like, oh, I was trying to have a farm where the marketing strategy was just make social media content to saying, I'm going to just be a storyteller and I'm going to be a farmer storyteller.

You're shifting right now, aren't you?

What do you mean?

You're shifting like you're—

Oh, in terms of what you're— no, I don't actually don't think I'm shifting. I think it's me getting comfortable with what I've been doing for the last 3 years. I think that that's a versus trying to like, maybe delude myself where, you know, like, you know, now I have this weird question, right? Like, what's your job?

What do you tell them?

Like, I'm a farmer storyteller, or I'm a farmer and I make videos. Like, that's typically how I'll answer that question. And like, you know, that label of like farmer slash storyteller, that's— I'm happy with that. I like— I now, I feel like I can commit to that and connect it. And so it's recognizing that those two things are very symbiotic because That's how I built my farm. Like we paid for our fencing. I bought my tractor by using Google AdSense money. And like, I've tried to be very transparent about that versus like, you know, hiding that. And I think actually being comfortable, like that's, I think that's a good thing.

Yeah. I think if grandpa, as hard as he had to work back in the day, would be all about it. Like what the heck? You have this opportunity. I think there's this weird. It doesn't make you any less of a man or a woman to walk through a door of opportunity presented you.

No.

Just because nowadays we have smartphones and can have our own television shows.

It's recognizing where the evolution— yeah, exactly.

Does that mean we shouldn't jump through that door because it's easy and free and we can make a lot of money doing it?

And it's not how your grandfather would have done it, right?

Yeah, you could not.

Like, your farm is very different than your grandfather's farm, even though it's in the same same exact spot.

But I could guarantee if he'd been presented the opportunity, he would have jumped on it.

And I could also guarantee you that if he was trying— if he was here today and he was your age today running this farm, he would not be successful if he was just trying to run it the way he was.

No.

40, 50, 75.

Well, you can make a lot more money, and there's nothing wrong with this either. You can make a lot more money. You can make money selling chicken eggs, but you can also make money teaching people how to grow their own eggs. A lot more money that way. Yeah. And what's wrong with, um, you can give a man a fish today, you can be a farmer and give them some eggs today, or you can teach him how to fish, you know, feed himself.

Yeah, it's, it's, I think it is that very much that principle. And I think it's recognizing that agriculture is changing. Like, you know, I've just been reading this, uh, diary from a farmer who is like in, like right down the road from me. His family like helps me out with my farm on some things occasionally. Um, he passed away about 3 years ago in his 80s. He started farming in like a mile away from me in the '60s. And like, that's how he's gone. He kept a diary and it was sort of a journal of what he did. If he tried to do what he was doing today, he would not be successful. If he just focused on commodity dairy and that's what he was like, his model, he'd be really struggling and hurting today, even though kind of throughout the '80s, '90s, into the 2000s, he was doing great. Like, you have to be willing to adapt to the climate. Yeah. And adjust. And so I think this is an example of that.

Yeah. There should be nothing wrong or shameful in renting out an outbuilding on Airbnb as part of farm income. Agrotourism, school tours, content creation. We just got rid of— get rid of all the shaming all around.

Yeah, I mean, I don't think I'm all the way there, but I've been working on it for like myself.

This is rapid fire. What's your favorite time of day and why?

Morning, first thing, getting out and doing chores. And just because I love the energy of the barnyard.

To have a great mind and full of movie knowledge, to remember all those clips you inserted. Where do you come from? Where do you get it from? So amazing. Right on to the point and funny. So you said you do use a lot of movie clips. Does that come to your mind when you're filming or, and when you're editing?

Both. Sometimes I will have a clip immediately in my head and how that sequence is going to go that I'm going to cut to that clip. Other times I'm editing it and something just pops into my head and it goes to it. It's all just sort of like a pop culture sponge over the last, you know, 40 plus years. And it just regurgitated up. It's just the gut.

And for my own sake, is that legal? You can post from, I understand. You can post a movie, a cop— would it be copyrighted?

Oh, it was all movie stuff.

Yeah. Up to 15 seconds.

I would be very careful in giving a rule like that. It's legal. I, I argue it is legal under the doctrine of fair use.

Yeah.

In that my videos aren't relying on something to exclusively be a repackaging of that content.

Yeah. Yeah.

And I'm, if you look at most of my content, 95% of any given video is original content done in an educational or critical context. And so by checking those boxes as well as the minimal amount of use that I do apply to it, like I'm not using long clips, that would be where a lawyer would say, oh yeah, that's fair use. Again, didn't go to art school though. I mean, I went to art school. I didn't go to law school.

You're not a lawyer. You have to give that disclaimer.

Yeah. Be very clear about that.

You're writing a novel. And it's for young people. How far are you along in that?

I am almost done. Like, like almost really finish it this week.

How many words?

So I've written a couple drafts. It's gonna be about 50,000-ish.

What inspired the story?

So I absolutely love my guard dog. Like, I got my livestock guardian dog because I was having predator problems and it's maybe the, I'd argue the best way to deal with predators on a farm. Um, and I didn't expect me to like love having him there and have him be such an integral part of my life. And so like wanting to bring that to life for other people was like, I don't know, I was just totally moved by it. And I also find that like when you're a kid of like 10 years old, literature shapes your worldview in a way like nothing else does. Like things that you read, like I, I, even told you a story earlier, like Matt Groening in his book School is Hell, how that had such a profound effect on my worldview. And so I'd love to have a positive impact on kids from that perspective. And so telling an amazing story about my dog coming to the farm and how he views the world and how he finds his place in the world, I don't know, that, that's just really motivating to me. And so that's what, what drove it.

What's the opening line? Do you know it?

I don't know the opening line. The opening scene is Toby as a puppy with his mother as she barks off coyotes on their— on her farm.

So something exciting happening there in the beginning.

You gotta start with some action. Yeah, drop kids in.

So, so, uh, how did you think of the stories line?

Um, you know, part of it's cribbed from real life, but then thinking about it from Toby's perspective versus mine, part of it is other incidents that have just happened on the farm.

Okay.

And then part of it is me wanting to make sure it good satisfying story structure.

And it's Toby's life?

Yeah. Uh, well, it's just this story. It's, it's, so I don't know if this is gonna be the official title of it, but it's, uh, you know, my working title is, uh, Toby of Gold Shaw Farm. And it, it's basically the story of his first year or so on the farm, going from being a puppy, being born and like, you know, being with his family on an original farm, coming to the farm, not knowing anything and finding his place in the world to ultimately becoming the protector of the farm. It's that story.

What's his big conflict?

Um, so it's actually, I mean, is it the internal or external conflict?

He's got both.

There's both.

Okay.

Like I said, it's a good story. That's what was my goal. Like, it's gonna be satisfying.

Well, what's his internal conflict?

Listen, uh, his internal conflict is not feeling like feeling a sense of entitlement to a place in the world, but not knowing what that should be. Oh, which I think a lot of us can relate to. Um, but then I think his external one is, is being afraid of coyotes and bobcats.

He's afraid, or are the other dogs afraid? Is this abnormal?

Um, I, I mean, he's the only dog, he— so once he leaves his— he's the only dog on our farm right now. We're getting a puppy in a couple of weeks, another livestock guardian dog puppy. But he's the only dog.

No, but I mean in the book, is he a scaredy-cat? Is he dealing with that problem?

Yeah. Oh yeah.

Or is this just a normal fear for this type of dog in this story?

Oh no, no, I think it's like he's dealing with some fears. His mom wasn't afraid. Why isn't he afraid? Why is he afraid? Like that sort of thing.

Good. What's the happy ending?

He finds his place on the farm. Like he realizes he belongs and he's a part of the farm as much as the ducks or the geese, the barn cats. He is of the farm.

What does he think about you in the book?

You know, I think I wrote myself as just a dolt. And like, you know, I feel like he and I have a very close relationship, but it's probably not portrayed as well in the book where I'm just kind of like this external factor. It's much more about the relationship of the animals on the farm than the human characters.

Yeah.

Human. It's like, think about it like, uh, you ever see Muppet Babies? Remember Muppet Babies when we were kids? Like cartoon where it's like you can only see the adults from like the legs up kind of thing. You don't see their face or what they are. Or like Peanuts where all the humans are like that. They're not really factors.

I like to read novels and then wouldn't think I would write one one day, but I have no idea where to start. So I'm thinking to asking you, and I wouldn't ask now after talking to you, I wouldn't ask How do I start? I should probably say why.

Yes.

So how do I explore that in a real practical way? Let me ask you a couple of questions.

Yeah. So you say you want to write a book or you like to read books and so you might want to write one, but why? Why would you want to write that book?

Well, I mean, the shallow first thing to come to my response is it'd be just really cool to make up a story that doesn't exist. I've heard of, what's his name, he wrote Frederick, what's his name, he wrote the Ove. What's the name of that book? Anyway, he talked about how he escapes to this world with his characters. That his wife, you know, his wife knows nothing about. It's just he's created this own little world.

So why do you feel the need to escape with, with your characters?

Yeah, that would be— yeah, that would be to, to provide us escape from the world, I reckon.

Yeah, like a form of protection kind of thing.

Like, yeah, yeah. I say, I don't even know what it would be about. I've had thoughts of— I'm so very curious about how the Cherokee would have lived here, the Cherokee Native Americans would have lived here. That might be a really fun story to explain because it was kind of like, well, I would kind of like to read about them, but I would want not a dull history book, something more exciting. And I'm doubting that exists. I might need to make that happen.

Yeah, I mean, I always think it starts with a good idea, right? Like, for, for a couple of years I've been working on a graphic novel and I'm just I've still never gotten around to it. I doubt I ever will about, um, you know, Homo sapiens and Neanderthals, right? They, they lived at certain periods of time at the same time. And even it's, it's rumored that, you know, and intermixed and they had conflicts, like, you know, there's lots of theory about it and not a ton of archeological evidence. I, I've always wanted to write a graphic novel about that.

Yeah.

And like, so, so, Yeah, that's the idea. That's not the story though. That's the idea. So now, okay, so take your premise, right? So the Cherokee in this area on this specific spot. Okay. What would be the story? What's the conflict? You know, I think I always define stories as a character who wants something, faces adversity to get it, and is changed as a result of the process, right? Like that, those sort of the basic formula for it. So. Let's start with a character. That's always kind of fun.

Yeah.

For me it was, I start with my dog cuz I love him. He's, I think he's got a great personality. Okay. He's here in this setting and he's going from being a little puppy. Yeah.

To a mature one. Yeah.

That's good. So that's, that's his change. That's, I would've, now I just need to come up with a conflict.

I would've had a Cherokee boy coming of age. Uh, so I would be interested. I'm always interested in like, well, how did the Cherokee stay warm?

Right.

Here 500 years ago. How did they— what did they eat in the winter? Uh, what did they sleep on in their thing? So there's always all these interesting historical things that would be fun to explore. I mean, there's arrowheads, uh, in fields over, but it would also be— give him some modern— he needs a story. There needs to be a story to make it interesting, and he needs some complex modern problems like growing up. Is he going to move? Is he gonna, I don't even know enough about the Cherokee to know, did they do arranged marriages or what? So I'd have to look into that to find out if he's gonna accept that or, you know.

Yeah. I mean, but that's where I think like, you know, my two cents for you, if you really want to explore this one, it's then start doing the research and sort of get the historical. Cause if it's going to be something rooted, like the book I've been working on is so rooted in my day-to-day life. I don't need to do a lick of research.

I'm tempted to do that too.

It just sort of flows.

Cause that's easy.

But like another idea for a story that I've had that I've never quite fleshed out is the story of one farm from being settled in like the 1770s to like modern times and like how, cause I, it was inspired by this idea. Like, so my farm, the farm I'm on, um, you know, it was first settled in 1835 and I'm the 6th family to own it at this point. So settled by this guy in 1835, the Shaw family, which is where Gold Shaw Farm comes from, they purchased it in 1870, had 3 generations that really farmed it, sold it in the mid-'70s. And like they played a significant role. Think about agriculture over just that period of time alone, right? The evolutions, the steps, the progression. That to me is an interesting story. And so to try to find a way to structure probably like almost an anthology of like a story from each generation. That would be interesting to me.

So it's like, yeah, I think for the Cherokee story, then it would be interesting to explore some of the things that I went out— this Indian boy needs to be me in some ways where he needs to decide at some point, is he going to take his family's religion? Is he going to step into his father's role? And do what he's supposed to do as his— as the society expects of him. It'd be kind of fun to explore modern issues that would have been there just in a different context.

That's exactly right. I mean, like, look, the best stories have universal themes. Like, I don't think anybody who's gonna read my book is a dog. No, but I think many people who read my book are gonna be struggling or thinking about where's my place in the world and how do I find it? That's a very— I think that's a universal thing. And so that's, I think, what makes good stories that connect with people is when, yeah, there's like a surface and a wrapper that's novel and different and kind of clever, but then there's a universal truth that sits underneath it that many, many people can identify with.

Yeah, that's a good point. What are you going to do? You're going to leave here. What's next for you and why are you pursuing that next?

So I had a, we just had about 20 inches of snow the other night. And so I had my buddy plow it, but I got a lot of snow cleanup to do when I get back to the farm. So I guess that's what I'm really doing next. In terms of like more, I think bigger picture of where you're going. The biggest thing is, you know, other than the book, I'm working to start a beef jerky company. So this is where, you gets back to the sort of the connection between social media and farming. For the longest time, I've had so many people reach out to me and they want to buy a goose from us. They want to buy eggs from us. They want to buy things from our farm. And either because of regulation or logistics of, yeah, it costs me $200 to ship you this frozen goose on top of the actual price of the goose. Like, you know, like it just doesn't make sense. I haven't done that. I, I've— I thought about it a lot, and I'm like, well, jerky would be wonderful. And so could I make goose and beef and other sorts of jerky? Because it's dehydrated, it's self-shelf stable. I could actually get it out to people who see our content and want a connection with the farm. And so I'm working on trying to solve some logistical problems around it right now. Yeah, but I'd like to try to get that going by the fall.

That could be your own— listen, that could be your own meat going into that, sure. But you can also source, and this is you helping small farmers. It's like you read my business plan, dude. You can also buy from small farmers because you have the marketing audience now.

Look, you want me to say, all right, let's take a minute to be grandiose. That's exactly where it goes, where it starts with my farm and my animals. But, you know, particularly the part of Vermont that I live in, it's been legacy dairy for the last 80 years, maybe even longer. Um, and, and sort of how do we now convert that into something that's going to work for the farm, the land, and the farmer? Grass-fed beef.

Yeah. It's like, and shipping it too.

Yeah. You really can't get better. And again, it's, we're a relatively poor part of the state, you know, relatively low population. So the farm to consumer ratio isn't great. So how do you get it out of here? Like, You know, Legacy Dairy started in the area because they would ship butter to Boston. Like, that's how it began. Wow. And so, gosh, wouldn't it be great to kind of get there? Yeah, that's my dream, like 5, 10 years out. Yeah.

Okay. All right, well, I'm excited to see it. So folks can follow you on Gold Shaw Farm all over the— all over the internet.

YouTube, TikTok, Instagram.

Are you still on Clubhouse? You still messing around there?

You know what? No. You know, Twitter Spaces has been the place I've been, which is basically Twitter's ripoff of Clubhouse, which they launched about 6 months ago. Okay, I've been doing that more.

Okay, good.

Discord, just started a Discord.

Okay, all right, well, thanks.

Awesome, thanks, Justin.