Tara & Troy Couture on Life + Death and the Tragic loss of their Daughter

Um, when, when does the homestead dream— when do you know the homestead dream has become the nightmare?

You know that was gonna be your first question.

It's the only question he has.

Other than that, I got a few notes.

When did it become the nightmare?

Yeah.

Um, so it was on our first farm, and I know you're gonna agree with me, so I'll just go ahead. It was on our first farm and we had been selling grass-fed beef. We had been like breeding large black rabbits and selling wieners and meat. We were doing goats and lamb and dairy and literally everything because we were absolutely insistent that it had to be a whole ecosystem onto itself.

Sort of like— Yeah.

Like a biodynamic approach, right? Like everything was closed and supporting the next thing in the whole cycle. And we had 3 little kids at home and homeschooling our youngest at the time. Our oldest was getting ready to leave. And we had— how big was that garden? It was close to an acre.

It was huge.

Yeah. And it was huge. And we were in the garden and it was like late in the day and We still had hours of work ahead of us. And I was in one row and he was in another row and I was pulling stuff out and I said like, are we gonna make it? And he looked at me and said, I don't know. And my guts like just fell out because he's always the one to be like, of course we are, you know, rallying me and I'll get pessimistic and he's always the one that's there to, pull me back up and, you know, of course we're going to make it, you know. And when he said that, I just realized how tentative everything had become. Our relationship was like at the bottom of like our priorities because you had to keep all this other stuff going. And so that was, that was a pivotal turning point for us because I was like, not a chance. Like, this is not going to happen. Our marriage is not up for grabs. This is there's not a— this can't be. So definitely that was the moment.

Oh, when you were saying, are we going to make it? You didn't mean I meant we're going to collapse. You meant the marriage, our marriage.

Yeah.

Wow. And you said, I don't know.

That was a pretty big moment. Like, I think there was a lot of lead up to it in terms of all the stress, the strain. Uh, I was working off farm, we were working on farm every day. It didn't seem to have an end. And I just think, like Tara had said, I think we were putting ourselves last. And so I think when she asked the question, I think I took it as like, are we going to make it? Absolutely. In terms of our—

I meant it that way.

Okay.

Yeah.

Yeah. Okay. Wasn't just about we're going to survive this farm venture. It was your marriage. Yeah. Because your dream was to have a market farm.

Yeah. We wanted the farm to be financially self-sustainable.

Yeah, you weren't always market farming though. You weren't always market farming.

No, no, that was our— so that's how we started. That's how we started off.

Yeah, it was the big dream. And that's why I say, because the dream can turn into the nightmare. Oh yeah, and it did for y'all.

I think it might have been a bit more incremental. Maybe I'm wrong in my memory, but I thought we initially started off the idea to really have control over our own food and grow it for us. And then we had made a decision pretty early on though that we were going to upscale because I think you and I were talking about this morning, just in the sense that if we just sell a little bit more, it won't take that much more extra effort. We can cover off all our own expenses. But I think that's when the nightmare really started to grab hold, if you want to use that term, just because that small incremental increase from homestead to being like a market farm, that's just not a small step. That's a lot of extra effort to actually start looking at your farm for us the way we were set up to cover off all our own expenses. And it just took a lot of time, especially given the fact that I was working off farm.

So the goal was to cover your own expenses?

Yeah. Yeah.

Did you ever do that? Did you ever make that goal? Did you get that far?

No, because we were only at that farm for 5 years and using that model for 5 years. And, and what ended up happening was, I think in order for us, because the infrastructure was so poor that every last penny that we were making, we were pouring into repairing barns and putting in fencing and electric fencing supplies. Like everything we had, we were starting from scratch. So we never, you know, had we kept going, maybe, I don't know. But when we left, we had put so much work into like, the infrastructure that we were able to sell that farm for a profit and then recoup those losses, 'cause we just poured so much into that place. And then when we moved to our next place, we moved knowing we were doing this just for ourselves. Like we were just gonna be homesteading. So we never got to the place where, you know, had we decided, yeah, this is what we're gonna do, we probably would've started making some profit, but we never did.

We're stubborn enough, we would have got there.

Yeah, but we didn't. It just— we, we didn't want to pay the price that was required for us to be there.

Why was the Margaret's Farm so hard on the marriage?

I think because when we bought that farm, uh, we had bought it because of the land, uh, and then everything else needed an incredible amount of work. And I think we had young kids. I was still military at that time, so a lot of demands. So, I had to travel an hour to work every day. And so, fitting in and around everything to do with, I guess, family and work, there was also getting up first thing in the morning and trying to milk the cows, trying to get on the road in time so I get to work an hour away for like an 8:30 start time, doing the entire day at work, and then coming home and right away stepping into is like, oh, like we need to, go to the forest and fell a tree and, uh, start bucking it and splitting it so we can get ready for like our winter firewood. And it was just, there's just a crazy amount of demands and also learning by a fire hose. I think we learned an incredible amount with that farm, but I think we jumped in wholeheartedly with both feet and went from zero, uh, animals to—

No, we had a herd of cattle on our farm before we took possession of it.

And did you know what you were doing with animals?

Well, I mean, I had done a lot of volunteering and working on farms, and I had a cattleman that was a real mentor of mine. So I had done all the harvesting animals, butchering animals. I— so I'm not going to say we started from scratch, but it's very different when you're solely responsible for the animal from cradle to grave than it is dipping into someone else's system.

And like, to do it right.

Yeah, that's Yeah, yeah, yeah. That was the biggest thing for us. I mean, the biggest thing honestly is the, the food and the nutrition. It's the quality of the life and the lifestyle, but we're really in it for the food, like, you know, and so it, it was never— we're never willing to compromise on things because then I can just buy it. And so why am I doing it? There's a standard to the food that we raise that is really important to us, and I can't buy the kind of food that we can raise. And so that's the driver really. And it's just beautiful and a great synchronicity that it also happens to be that in raising the, to get the kind of food that I want, I'm raising animals in a way that is best for them, you know? And they have a really good quality of life that's in alignment with their design as well. It all works out well together. But yeah, it's, it's really the food. Yeah.

I was gonna say, but I think that moment in the garden was a bit of an awakening too, because I think, I think awareness is such a powerful tool in our lives. And it's like, for Tara and I, like our relationship has always been above everything else. And I think that moment in the garden was just really a moment where both of us had the very real realization that no, we have to just relook at what our priorities are right now, kind of shift us back to the very top of our family above all else and figure out how we can take what we want on this farm and restructure things so that this is actually for us and with us as opposed to us always being in opposition to the farm, trying to I don't know, do these like crazy days, but at the expense of what? Like, and so it's really kind of that very holistic look at it to reprioritize and put us back to where we had to be in that equation.

Yeah. Did you, okay, so you right now, you, you got your hand on her leg last night. We were on a walk. You're holding her hand. You guys have been married how long?

28 years.

During this struggle, were you just as affectionate, or did you have to develop that over the years?

Oh no.

Oh, we've always been madly in love.

Oh, okay.

Okay. That's good. What's, what's the secret to that?

Finding the best man in the world to spend your life with. That's the secret. No. Honestly, I feel like as we've gotten older, more and more, I just am so delighted by things that delight him. To be married to someone who's so fulfilled and sound in who they are, I want to be a part of that, and I encourage that, and he's the same way with me. And, um, yeah, just somehow this thing called marriage becomes this entity that is so precious and beautiful in life. It's bigger than the sum of our parts and it's the greatest gift that we have. And so, we honor it and respect it and treat it with care. And I think that that all came through a lot of hardship and us having gone through that together and being there for one another and being a team and realizing, I don't know if I would've survived what happened if it wasn't to have him walking alongside of me. So yeah, that would be my— that's how I feel about it. You agree?

And I would echo that completely. Like, I think from the very beginning I've always been deeply and madly in love with Tara. And I think I say to her quite often is that I didn't know that my love for you could get deeper and stronger with the passage of each day, week, and year. And I think it just continues to grow and deepen. And I think that's because we're in everything absolutely together. Like, we rely on each other, we trust each other. And I think we very much pay attention to the small things that matter so much. Like, it truly is, I think, like grabbing her bum. It's like—

what?

Grabbing her bum. Oh yeah. And just like, it's a small— it's a small affectionate touches. It's like kind of always being there for each other. Like, she's the very first face I see in the morning. Like, we always wake up together, we go to bed at exactly the same time. And I think the rituals that we've created in our life has really allowed us to craft and grow and grow our relationship because we're nurturing it because of the small things.

And also just being able to be silly and like not take everything so seriously. Like, he drives me crazy sometimes, I drive him crazy sometimes. Like, these are all normal things, you know, you just, you figure things out and you start to get to know each other's patterns and I know how annoying I can be, like, you know, so how, what, you know, but it's just, I don't know, it's just out in the open. It's not like there's any resentments that build up. We talk about things when they happen right away. We deal with things. We just, there's no stewing. There's no animosity. There's no envy or jealousy because I want him to have all the things he does because That's what makes him happy, and I like being married to a happy person, you know? Yeah.

What is something you've let go of in the past, if you care to share? If there was something about the other one that bothered you, but then you just finally somehow let it go. Um, that's a good one.

Um, okay, well, he's, uh, like, you know, he spent 25 years as an infantry officer. He can kind of control situations.

Yeah, comes in with a heavy hand. And everybody should know you're surrounded by women.

So I sometimes—

yeah, you have 3 girls, a lot of estrogen, a wife, and now a granddaughter.

Yeah, so I sometimes I tell him like, you're micromanaging me, like back off, you know.

But how's that work out?

It's good because we joke around about it and he knows, like, as soon as I'm like "Are you joking? Are you telling me how to wipe a spoon?" Like, you know? And he can be like, "Okay." You know? And because it's— he knows and I know. So, like, just little things like that, I think, are the things that, you know— And I think the things he is fascinated with are so weird. Like, I'm like, I don't— you know? This morning before we came here, he had ordered some sort of new pouch for this new rig he has, and he was putting it on, and I— went outside and I said, what are you doing? I got a new pouch. And I was like, it was like a Boy Scout, you know, like watching a boy.

It's a really important piece around about all these women.

They don't get it, Troy.

They don't.

Jonah would have got it.

I put a lot of research into it and it fits perfect.

Jonah would have come out and been like, that is a cool pouch.

Your son-in-law.

Exactly. Yeah, but it's endearing. I mean, and it's the stuff he likes and I like weird things too. So yeah.

Yeah, I know you want to tell that story. Well, Troy, don't tell her how to eat ice cream cone, whatever you do.

Oh, really?

She got the ice cream cone.

I don't even know if we were married.

I did it.

I was cheap. I wanted to go to Dairy Queen and get a dip cone.

Yeah.

And you know, this was a very long time ago.

She's eating her ice cream cone, probably feeling You know, I'm probably judging you or something.

You're just upset because he didn't get one.

Because, well, I was frugal.

And I was, I wanted it and it was like 80 cents.

But anyway, it's starting to drip. It's starting, yeah, I know, we should have stocked up on it then, didn't we? It's probably $3 now. It started to drip on the cone. Yep. And she's still going like this. I said, you just lick around the cone.

Exactly.

She threw that cone out the window.

I should have thrown it on him.

I'm thinking, I thought that too.

Throw it on me.

It doesn't hurt me. You throw it out the window.

I think the reason I threw it out the window is because I wasted the money. I think that's—

oh yeah, that pissed me off.

Yeah, to like make him mad. Like if I would have gone like this to him— well, I mean, I still— but it would have gotten in my car too. So I just— I rolled down that window and I just tossed it out.

I know right where I did it.

No problem.

Like, I was so— I was so— that's funny. No, I was thinking about the other where we call it the Justin Rhodes special.

Oh, yeah, he does the Justin Rhodes. You have a special, Troy?

Sure I do.

I'll tell everybody to hurry up, hurry up, we gotta go, we gotta go, we gotta go. And then everybody's ready. I say, hold on, I gotta go poop or something. I gotta go get myself—

I gotta go do this or I gotta go do that. And I'm like, you're just rushing us so much.

Where I stack the calendar.

Yes, he stacks the calendar. That's another Justin Rhodes special.

You don't have a special?

Oh, like something that you always do that you're just like, this is, this is special.

You'll figure it out. You might not.

Well, probably my special is, is like, I think maybe it's my military background too, but I'm never late. I'm always on time, like down to the second or minutes. But I think this drives Tara and the girls crazy because they want to be early. And I always like, I think I'm pretty good at like timelines and figuring out when to arrive somewhere.

So I'll never be late, but No, if he has to be somewhere at 8 o'clock, he's there at 8:00. Like 8 o'clock. And if I have to be somewhere at 8 o'clock, I'm there at 7:50, 7:55. Not people's houses, but like an appointment or something. It just gives me that nice little buffer. And, but you know what? That's the difference between an officer and an enlisted man, right? Because if I wasn't there on time back in the day, 10 minutes early was on time, right? An officer could saunter in and be like, I'm here. And, you know, everyone would— no one would say anything. So that's the difference.

And it's funny because our girls are always early as well. And so I think that's probably why it's my special, because like, I'm fine with arriving right on time, but it gets me into trouble now too, because I think for certain things early is good.

But yeah, well, you just never know about traffic.

That's the thing, right?

You just never know. Like, you don't know how to get there right on time. Time with traffic.

Wow.

Drives like a demon.

For some of my work, I have to drive like 3 hours to get there for some of my shifts, and, uh, always on time. Like, even if there's— I figured it out.

So, but you're stressed for the last 15 minutes of it. That's why. Yeah, like, oh my God, we're gonna be late. Yeah.

No, I like to be— I, we— I, I go to acupuncture and I leave 45 minutes early, and it does not take me 45 minutes of driving to get there, but I'm in the parking lot between 8 and 10 minutes early, and then I can just like compress, and then I have time to walk in. I might need to text somebody or check an email. I have that time.

That's 8 or 10 minutes taken away from what you could have done before you left.

I'm—

I'm— it's about being efficient with time. Have you heard of Lombardi time? You're on Lombardi time. There was a famous coach, football coach, who said if he said 8, what he really meant was 7:45, because you needed to be there and get your cleats on and have your He meant the whistle's blowing at 8.

Yeah.

I mean, Matt's a good example. We hit record at 1. He was here at what, 11? Yes. The man behind curtain says yes. Did y'all's affection come naturally or do you have to work on it some?

I had to work on it. It came naturally for him. We're different that way. I was just talking about that with my oldest daughter the other day. Um, because I, like, I didn't grow up around that. And he was, he's always been very affectionate, even with the kids and stuff. Like, he's very affectionate. And I had to kind of, at first I was like, well, I don't know about that, but I did really thought about it. And I think it was more of a defense mechanism than anything. It was sort of like, I don't need to be touched. I don't need to be. And so I think in that way, it's been really nice. For our marriage because, um, I don't know. I mean, there's something very endearing and connecting to just be able to walk by someone and just give them a little touch. And, and to— it's a big part of our marriage now, but it still definitely comes more naturally to him. He'll say, you haven't touched me in a while.

I'm like, oh no, you'll make an intent to try and do that.

Yeah, yeah. Yeah. So are you guys very affectionate like that?

I feel like we used to be. I feel like, I feel like we're in such a time right now. Our season is like, go.

Yeah.

We don't have a lot of like extra time. I, I feel like we are. I mean, like we'll lay on the couch and like, you know, touch or, you know, like when we go on the walk, we'll hold hands.

We'll kiss. We'll drive the kids nuts.

Yeah.

Sometimes.

Yeah.

I think that's good.

We like to— like when we're working in the kitchen, we're like hugging and like, you know, and they're like, oh, this is so terrible. We're like, we love it.

I know.

I love it.

They're like, oh, that's so terrible. And they're kind of looking up with one eye. What you need, Gideon? Anything?

I stole my machete.

Oh, okay.

She stole it?

Okay. You'll have to work that one out. Here comes Duke though, hopefully. Don't work it out.

Don't work it out with her right now.

We'll work it out when we get back.

No, put that down.

Why don't you come in here and sit?

Let me see it. Okay, do not work it out with her right now.

Do not. We are not over there to work things out. Stay in here with us or play outside by yourself.

We took him with us to acupuncture because we both went because he's getting it for his shoulder and, um, Mine was just my monthly. I go one time a month.

I love it.

It's so fun. And he's like, why did you take me to acupuncture? And we're like, we were saving your life.

Okay. Yeah.

A sibling might harm you and we're not there to take— well, he, you know, he like pushes the right buttons. He's a very smart child. Yeah, he's extremely smart. He wants you to think he's dumb as rocks, but he is not.

Okay.

And he knows. Exactly the push, the button to push at the exact right time to literally make the other ones go berserk.

Okay.

He'll sit. Yeah, go ahead.

No, it's just he— we were like, we're saving your life. He's like, you didn't have to save my life. We're like, yes, we did.

Okay.

I don't have time to deal with that.

Yeah.

Yeah. I mean, I think, yes, we are affectionate. I should say that we are affectionate. I think, like, I think we're just in the trenches with little kids still.

Totally get that.

It's like crazy. Yeah.

I'm like, when is is my life gonna slow down? Like, you know, I thought that, you know, the whole slow living thing, like, I— we embrace that. Like, that's definitely our mode of operation. We have made a lot of choices in our lives to go slow, and like, it's just speeding up and we can't do anything to stop it. I feel like, you know, like the brakes, we cannot put brakes on. And so like, it's so funny, there'll be times when we're just like this It's all the time we have is to, like, hug each other in the kitchen and then go, you know? Like, there's just— yeah, I don't know.

It's like, well, tell me if this is good.

You're not super— you're not like, like, try like that.

No, he's more affectionate than I am.

Yeah. But, um, and I guess I've just grown used to it.

I—

but like, if I need a hug, I just go to it. Like, I'm like, give me a hug. Yeah, you know, that's what I would do. Well, my mom—

mom's not overly affectionate.

I remember as a child going, can I get a hug?

You know, like, your parents are not overly—

they're not affectionate, but I just— I would go get what I needed. Like, I need a hug, can we cuddle? Like, whatever, you know what I mean? And see, I'm still really— I'm in cuddling season with Henry still.

Yeah.

And then so you get talking, if you run out of things to say, just pause.

If not, just keep going.

Okay, what are you gonna do?

Powerful company.

Oh, okay, good. Um, what was I saying?

Are you talking—

yeah, like, I'm still cut— like, Henry, the other— like, so we butchered on Tuesday, and I was really busy doing like a lot of things that Justin couldn't do. And then, so then I was like doing my stuff and his stuff on Tuesday, and then I finally got down to the butchering like in the afternoon because I was— I made lunch for us and the other people who did the class, like their whole family. And so I didn't make it for the participants, just the other, like the guy who actually led the class and his wife and their 7 kids. So I was like making a big pot of chicken soup and, and so like, I just couldn't get down to the butchering until like after lunch. So I came down there and, and then like Henry just didn't get enough. Like attention that day. So when it was over, like, I was just on the couch with him for like an hour, just holding him. We weren't even like— I mean, we were talking some, but like he was focused on something else and I was just sitting with him.

Yeah.

Like, do you know what I mean? And so like sometimes I get touched out still.

Oh, I know.

I am still in that very much touched out. So I'm like, don't touch me too much.

Yeah.

Because like I'm still being I'm still being touched a lot by Henry.

I definitely went through that too, like, when the kids were smaller, for sure.

Yeah, yeah, for sure. But I do love having Henry because my older kids are not into that. Yeah, you know, like, Lily still— Lily and Gideon still will want to, like, sit on our lap or come cuddle with us on the couch. But, like, Jonah and Josiah, I have to be like, okay, it's like, we have to hug every day. Yeah, this is time for the hug. So, yeah, he's It's like, I don't know, like, that's— it's an interesting— like, we are affectionate, but not overly, I would say. But definitely enough to irritate our children. I know. I, I will say, like, I can see— I can see it when our kids—

and it's just the two of you.

Yeah. Oh, we're very excited. Like, we, we didn't have kids for 5 and a half years because we were like, we just had so much fun.

Mm-hmm.

We were having so much fun and, um, it was just kind of like, like every year we'd kind of check in, like, should, should we have a kid yet? Yeah. It's like, no, like we're having too much fun doing like, just like we, we were volunteering in our church youth group and we, we just went, like, I can remember one year, like between Thanksgiving and Christmas, we were home one night. We were just constantly going volunteering. We did like a program with the church. Like we were just constantly going. There was, we were visiting people or having dinner out. Like it was crazy. We didn't even have a Christmas tree that year.

Mm-hmm.

Because we were like, we're not even home.

Yeah.

So that was before kids.

Yeah.

And then, you know, we have kids and then you're like home-based.

Well, there's so many draws, I think, on you, both of you right now with like your kids, the farm business and everything else. And I think like with a relationship, there is an ebb and flow that goes with it. As long as the underlying current is always going the same direction. Oh yeah, we're definitely always together. And you can definitely see that with you and Justin, like with— I don't know, you guys just radiate such love together and with your family too. Like, it's so nice seeing you interact with your boys and with your daughter Lily. Like, it's just such a— I don't know, it's such a warm, welcoming, vibrant energy within your home. So it's so nice to see and feel that.

I think it's also just August. Yeah, we're tired.

Tired month.

Everyone's tired. August and January or February are just like the worst times of the year. They're just like so tired of winter. Well, for us, see, March happens and spring's here.

Yeah.

Which, when does spring happen for you guys?

It's a nice transition.

April, May?

Okay.

Yeah.

It's over a couple months, I think, after you get your like wet, muddy season. And then it's, uh, things start to dry up and you slowly start to see the greens. But once the greens start to come, it comes fast. But there's probably about a month and a half.

But you guys have a lot of sun.

Mm-hmm. We do have a lot of sun.

You guys like, have a ton of sun.

Yeah, we do.

Then you're— are you really dark also in the winter?

Like, just, I mean, shorter days for sure. Very short days. Yeah. It gets dark by 4:30, I guess. But we love winter. If I could have winter— well, I know I— we love winter. It's our favorite season. It's our favorite season for sure. Because it's slow. Yeah. I'm a winter, like wool blankets and the wood fire going. Like, I love that time of year. It's like light out. Yeah, but you get to just— yeah, and it's just such a period of recuperation after all the work you do to get the food. All of a sudden you're enjoying all the labor, right?

I feel like that this year. I'm like, I'm really gonna enjoy winter.

I think—

I'm hoping that we can slow it down. Yeah, I don't know though, with teenagers it's like—

why does it stay fast, do you think?

I think it's because Well, and I mean, because we're so like— I think it's, I think it's just because like society doesn't do a winter. And I feel like, I mean, like, how did you do it with your daughters in being like in school and you know what I mean? Like hockey, like, yeah, I mean, like there's just a lot going on. You guys just did— you didn't, or you just went fast then?

Well, we did go fast, but the thing I think we've always tried to do is build in moments of pleasures in our day and having rituals. So that has always been really grounding for us. And sometimes a ritual is as small as like, like when it was all chaos, you know, the kids were all doing stuff, coming back from like hockey and making homemade hot chocolate and sitting down playing a board game like that was a ritual. And so all those things were really grounding for us. And him and I, like he said, we always wake up and go to bed at the same time. But when our kids were small, we would wake up before they would all wake up so we could have half an hour alone together. And the house would be quiet and that sort of thing. So, and the same thing at nighttime as well, because at nighttime we were absolutely bedtime. We are— we were always very strict on bedtimes because we wanted that hour to ourselves every night. We had to have it because, I mean, at the time, like, he was gone sometimes 300 days out of a year. And so we had to, uh, really prioritize our time together. And so I mean, it, it worked out well. The kids were happy having that structure, but also just for us to be able to, you know, actually see each other every now and then.

What happened when your teens wanted to talk at night? Because I mean, I'm finding that—

talk to you at nighttime—

or they want to come and talk and, and talk about, you know, life. And like, I love that they do. Like, I'm not complaining, but I'm just like Ready to go to bed. Like, they went to a party on Saturday night, Lily and Jonah did, um, a birthday party. And then I went to bed like before they got home, and they came in and like were talking to me, like telling me. I'm like, one of them was like, I'm gonna go to bed, I don't think you're listening.

I'm like, I was asleep.

Like, of course I'm not Yeah, I said to him, I was like, was I falling asleep while you were talking to me? He's like, I'm pretty sure. I was like, well, I was asleep when you got in. Like, you came in. I do, I love it. But I'm also like, yeah, I'm like, can we have this conversation at 8 PM?

Yeah.

But that's not— it seems like that's when they are, you know, it's like quieting down for them too, I guess. And these thoughts are getting loud in their head and they need to process it with somebody else, you know. So did you have something to say?

Um, tell me if I'm wrong. So it's good, I think, that the teens are coming to her and that's when they're feeling good.

And I think it's pretty—

yeah, wanting to talk. I mean, we've won. If you're, if you're teen— come— I— Joel Salatin told me that Daniel, his son— it was the podcast, I forget, it was some sort of interview— and he said that when his son was meeting his bride, who was going to be his bride, he came and talked to them about it. And Joel was talking about that process, but I had to say, wait a minute, how did you get your teen son to come talk to you about a dating situation? That was what was interesting and successful. For sure. And he did. Well, his answer was quantity time, not necessarily quality time, but just being together always. And I thought about that later. Yeah, because the way he raised them, you know, homeschooling and being home and with them. And I thought to myself, well, who else are you going to go talk to? That's his— that has to be his best friend. Look around the classroom.

Yeah, that's true.

Who's the next closest? Yeah, closest guy.

It's hard to get quality time if you don't have quantity time.

Yeah.

Like, because those are like the little pearls that just show up in a conversation or spontaneously in amongst a bunch of other dreary, you know, conversation or mundane sort of tasks.

Tell me this then. My approach and mindset to it lately has been, which they're going to fix the power here pretty quick.

Oh, good.

My mindset has been this is a season. I've learned that these are seasons. I can see the seasons now because Jonah's 17 and we have a 4-year-old.

Yeah.

So I know how quickly that 4-year-old is going to disappear.

Yeah.

And so I think because the way we were raised, Baptist to the bone, it's going to be that, you know, you, you, you got to make time, you have to have the date night, blah, blah, blah. Well, we are always together, right? Yeah, we're always together. So we sneak a time here and there and everywhere.

It's funny because like when we aren't together, like when we have to like go all these different ways, I'm like, I miss you.

Yeah, that's so nice because we spend so much time together.

Yeah. So like there will be times when he has to go and, you know, get stuff done and and go do this or go do that. And then when I have to go and then we're like not together for like 4 hours and it's like heartbreaking. Yeah, that's so sweet.

How do I say this classy?

What?

Oh, you know, intimate moments have to be, you know, we traveled in a bus for 10 months, right? With 4 little kids.

Intimate moments have to be creative.

That's a good word.

Rick.

And sometimes we'll talk about how one day they don't have to be, right?

That's such a great way to put it, because we're like, oh, this is where we're at.

Maybe you are in this stage now, you know, you're older, you can take a little more time. Yeah, you know.

Yeah, but what you said about seasons I think is just so amazing, because I think that's one thing that a farm or a homestead life really brings to the forefront is the idea of seasons because you're living very much in tune with the seasons because of your food production and raising animals. But it also makes you more aware of the seasons of a life.

Yeah.

Okay. And how there is such a cycle to everything. And I think it's really neat what you said about like your oldest son in terms of the season where he's at and he's kind of probably moving pretty soon into the next season of his life, whereas your youngest is kind of still requires that nurturing, the holding, the connection.

Yeah.

But it's so neat that each season offers up its own bounty and the different things that you can enjoy. Because we were just talking about what winter affords to us right now in terms of the ability to kind of slow down even more, hibernate, enjoy, connect, like, and just have those moments. But without all the previous seasons and the cycles within those seasons, I don't think you can really get to the enjoyment of the certain season you're in. And you have to embrace it too, because I always get so frustrated with people that are annoyed with getting older. And I'm like, man, you're missing out because I think getting older is such a privilege and it's such an honor to actually have more time and to be able to get to enjoy it and embrace everything that comes with getting older. I think it's such a powerful thing.

So I love getting older. Yeah, I know.

I don't mind it. Like, it's not been— I haven't been like, oh, you know, it's been kind of like, all right, this is— what am I going to do? Stop it? Yeah, you know what I mean? Like, you can't.

So sometimes I think people that really resist getting older maybe are unfulfilled, or they feel like there's something that they haven't accomplished. And like, the passage of time is a reminder that— I don't know, maybe I'm wrong, but I think that like the fulfillment you have in the way that you live and just being in that moment, in the present moment, like the aging part It's like, I don't know, like, if, you know, I don't want to die tomorrow, but if I die tomorrow, I'm all right. Like I told my girls, I had a good life and I would be at peace with that. Like, you know, you guys have younger kids, so it's different and everything. And I, I hope I live to be 80 or 90, you know, with this guy at my side. That would be wonderful. But also, I'm content with the way that we live our lives.

So, yeah.

Yeah.

You look good, by the way. I've met you now in person. I didn't even really know fully what you looked like. And both of you, um, I think it's a testimony to how well you've eaten. Yeah, to how well you've stayed active and have affection for each other. And I think it's a testimony. You have a bit of a glow.

He's like, it's all that grass-fed butter.

I wonder you guys don't mind getting older. I mean, you're getting more like aging, like, refined and beautiful. And, uh, yeah, that's really sweet, dear.

Thank you.

Thank you so much. Yeah.

Um, oh, so are we okay? Is that okay? Because you guys are further along, you have grown kids. We're saying— you're saying we used to like to go to it. That has to be okay. There's no other way unless they're gonna See, I know they're out. Hurry up, they're pretty sick. So, and it takes the kids longer to go to sleep now, you know. It's good when the kids go to sleep at 7. Teens are still up.

They're coming.

Teens are outlasting us now.

And so it's like, okay, it's very creative. Let's just say that. We're like, what is happening?

And yeah, it's because, you know, we're getting older and more tired and they're, they're going long, you know.

Well, the children, like they, like the other night He's like, can we talk? And, and I still have a ton of children in my room.

Like, getting loud.

Ian and Henry are sleeping in our room. So like, I have to go out into the living room to have a conversation with him because he doesn't want everyone to hear his business.

Yeah.

And it was like 11 o'clock.

I'm like, I got to go to bed.

Yeah. I love you. The moral of the story is pooper, get off the pot. We'll talk tomorrow. Like, literally.

I know, right? But they're in the mood at night. So you have to run with it. So is it okay then? Because here's a good example. So I like to— I would, if it were up to me, of just being her and I go to events, we get paid to go on these events. It would be a— what do you call that? Where you get— it's a workcation.

Yeah.

Okay. And it'd be just her and I and feel like a vacation. But I realize the kids are young. They like to go. Okay, you're going with us. You know, we take them with us. I submitted a documentary to the Banff Film Festival, and if that makes it, that means we're going to Banff, Canada. It'd be great to go just her and I, but I feel like we're in this for the long haul. We were here before the kids came. We'll be here after they go. And so this is just a season. Where they'll go with us because there are these seasons. Those romantic travel dates can wait.

Yeah, I would have to agree with that 100% because if you want to use again the analogy of the seasons, like you're in this season right now where you have the bounty and blessing of having kids and every— kids underneath your roof and everything that they offer up by their ages, all the magical things that come with like whether they're 4 or 17, all the different benefits of those ages and experiences that you get to enjoy with them. And I think if you don't enjoy that, you would miss that and you wouldn't want it. And so, uh, throughout it all, I think there's of course you that are the center of the family. But in this season right now, like, just grab onto those experiences, take the kids with you, and just fully immerse yourself in that all. Because like you had said, you're in it for the long haul with you and Rebecca. And I think, yeah, and you're gonna be able to enjoy the bounty of like the fall and winter at that time with the more time that affords, because you have have the memories and all the collection of, uh, experiences that you've created with your kids at this time. And yeah, yeah, I don't know, like there's— I think it— there's one, I'm gonna say it's in Tara's book there. There's one part that I just, I keep coming back to. It's, uh, it's actually a poem that she wrote on motherhood. And I just think it's such an incredible reflection of who my wife is as a mom in terms of everything that she's given to our daughters. Who our daughters have grown into and the vibrant souls that they are just because of her inputs. But she's also wanting them to go out into the world and be their own people and slay their own dragons and bring back the stories to her now because that's where Tara is at this stage and that's where our daughters are at in terms of what they're experiencing with new families. We have a granddaughter now and they're fully immersed in that. And I just think that Home is such a portrayal of, I think, the strength and beauty of my woman as a mom because she fully gets, I think, what it means to raise souls with the vibrancy, independence, and energy to go out and fully experience the magic of the world.

Well, Rebecca, we were just talking yesterday about when you have a baby, everyone's like, "When they crawl, it'll be easier. When they talk, it'll be easier." And you're always looking looking forward to this day when it gets easier. And then it's like, you know, you set them up and when they go out in the world it's easier. And it's like, you know, our oldest is 31 and I'm like, no, it doesn't. It's always just different. It's always just different. And of course I'm not bringing her to the toilet or, you know, or nursing a heartbreak because a friend at school was mean to her, whatever. Those days are changed. But now, like, like as adults, it has been really challenging because nobody talks about the fact that as our kids become adults, we're now in a relationship with another adult. And yes, you're going to be your children's mother and father, but if you want your relationships to continue to evolve and be strong relationships, you have to back up and let them grow into who they are and stop telling them who they are. And I think that's a really big thing that gets missed. 'cause no one really talks about it, but like Troy and I having gone, having had parents that, you know, even when we're in our 30s were talking to us like we were 15 and relating to us as if we were 15 really made us pull back from those relationships and it caused a lot of conflict and stuff. And so I love my kids, but my daughter is not, At 31, it's not who she was when she was under my roof. She's grown and that's what I want, that's what we want for her, grow and evolve. And she's very self-reflective and curious and always doing new things. And so when we're with her, we're giving the space to be like, "Tell me who you are today. Who are you today? What kind of stuff are you loving? What are you doing?" And just like you would relate to another adult instead of going into it all the time being like, Oh yeah, oh, that, yeah, we know, we know how you are, you're this, or, you know, oh yeah, well, that's 'cause you're stubborn. And, you know, and she's like, actually, you know, I've been working on that a lot. And I've been, you know, so we're always, for us, it's so important not just to have had that really close relationship, but to allow it to breathe and be alive and continue to evolve. And there's definitely challenges in that too, because we have to, put like mom and dad, like, you know, it's a, it's a beautiful thing to always be someone's parents, and they're very respectful and loving towards us. But I also want them to be able to tell me what's going on in their hearts and like to be able to feel like we can have like intimate conversations and they don't have to hide things from me because they think it would be, you know, unacceptable or whatever. So I, I would just say that I think if we do things right, relationship of all types continue to challenge us to grow and to evolve and to self-reflect and, and consider like how we're showing up for other people in our lives, like whether it's our children or our spouse or whoever. Yeah.

How did you know when to switch over into that mode from having to direct your child to the— oh wait, the child's adult, because there's no alarms. There's no alarms.

Yeah.

Or that's like too—

every child is very different. Like I can see be certain children needing less direction as they get older and certain children needing the same amount of dir— you know what I mean? Like, because they're all so individual. So I think that's my question too, is like, as a mother, I mean, you can answer Justin's, but I'm just curious, is like, what did you do right as a mom? And then what do you feel like you could have done better?

Well, lots of things for sure, because I mean, hindsight's—

Do you feel good? Do you feel confident? You're like, I, I did a great job. Like, because I, I guess I'm in a point where I'm like, I don't know if I'm doing a good job. Like, I'm nervous because I don't have any grown children, you know what I mean? Like, I don't have any job.

There's no—

I don't have any proof yet. Yeah, what I've done is like actually successful.

What would be proof to you? Like, let's say your kid's an adult What, and what would you need to see for you to think I've done a good job?

I think that they were like functional, do you know what I mean?

Like, no, it's more than that.

Like, well, like they're not— they're like have normal relationships like with people, you know what I mean? Like, that's a good question of like what's success in parenting.

I would think that it's that your children as— oh, here's success for me, that my children still want to be around me when they're adults.

I think that's— I think that's what I'm anxious about now, like, in this, like, because I'm like, you know, we're 4 months-ish away from 18, which, like, technically he's not done with high school till next June, but, like, it gets close. Yeah. You know, and he's not moving out anytime soon. Like, he's not going to move out when he's 18. Um, that I know of. I mean, I guess he could always change his mind, but like, I just— I'm like, are they gonna come back? Are they gonna like me? Like, I don't know, you know what I mean? Because we're also in teenage— we have a lot of teenagers.

Yeah, yeah.

So there's like a lot of mixed messages with teenagehood.

Teenagers are challenging.

They're tough little nuggets because like, do they, do they like you or do they not? Because I'm not really sure. I mean, we have great kids, and I'm like confused.

Yeah, yeah.

Like, am I being too hard? Is it not hard enough? Like, I don't know.

I guess there's just not a template. Like, you just— but you know, to what you said about like, do your kids still like you as adults? Like, that's a, that's a living relationship, right? Like, you can, you can determine that every interaction you have with them. I mean, that's exactly why we always want to let our daughters show up how they want to show up and try to sometimes zip it, like, with judgments unless we're asked, and to try not to control things, to be careful around relationships, you know. Definitely, I don't want to make it seem as if we're all, you know, oh, hi, and everything's great all the time, but it's— I think allowing them to just be who they are and make mistakes and to be, you know, to step back and be like, if they don't ask us, like, you know, we don't have to always be trying to steer and give our opinion because you're always gonna know better than them. Like, that's just a given, right? I know what's right for you, but I'm gonna keep it. I'm gonna let you figure these things out.

That's good.

So did you do that? Did you practice that when they were little?

No.

Oh, well, they always— we were huge on consequences.

Well, I was just going to say too, I think the one thing I would add before we kind of move on to the consequences was just the fact that we're not here either to be our daughter's best friend. Like, we're absolutely still here as mom and dad, and we'll forever be their mom and dad until like the day we die. So I think that's really important. I think there's a lot of parents too that yeah, don't have the consequences. Or when their kids move out of the house, they want to slide into the role of I'm your buddy. And it's like, I'm there to have like a father, a loving, adoring father-daughter relationship with my daughters forever. And that entails like listening, offering up advice, still offering up like the guidance even. And you do this very well, a lot better than I do, I think, in terms of offering up guidance in the hard situations where they still need to hear hear what maybe a best friend or what a best friend wouldn't tell them. They need to hear the hard truth. And like, we're still here to do that. And I think that I just want to add that in because I think it's so important in terms of fostering that lifelong relationship.

So yeah, that is true. I, I never want to be there. I mean, you are naturally have a friend element, but yeah, I will sometimes, sometimes a bunch of girlfriends or boyfriend guys that are friends or whatever will just cheer on someone and just cheer them instead of being like, yeah, yeah. And so we— that's true, we do. Yeah.

So our editor and his wife, they— I'm practicing on them. Oh, because they have children, and I'm practicing like holding my tongue and not saying anything unless asked.

Yeah.

And it's hard. Yeah, but it's a good practice.

Yeah, it is.

You know, it's like I'm like, are you sure you've told her this? And she's like, what, what is it?

I know I did. I told her, I was like, I will never— I'm not gonna nitpick you.

We're only gonna say something if it's some real concern.

If I think that like the child could be harmed in some way by what you're doing, I'm gonna, I'm gonna say something.

Yeah.

Then she's like, well, what did I do that was— that was— because I was like, well, you just did things differently than I did, and that's okay. Yeah, there's like, you're not hurting him. You just wiped his butt different. Like, there's— I don't need to say anything because, like, that's funny. Like, it's, it's, you know, because I was like, I just want you to know, like, I'm not gonna say anything unless, like, I really feel like it's a necessary thing to say. And then she's like, well, what was it? And I was like, I'm not gonna tell you.

We've always been big on letting them fail. Now, yeah, it's one thing to see my son just take handful of seeds, garden seeds, and just want to plant them all. Yeah, I don't say— I didn't say that's not gonna work. I said to myself, I'm gonna let them fail, cheer them on either way. You know, it turns out his garden actually did better than my garden. You know, the other crop shaded out the lettuce, and, you know, it was just real intense, and there wasn't any room for weeds. It just did really really good. So we won, right? But— and I didn't say anything. And even if he would have failed, still, Pop supported me. I'd be there for him if he was upset. But it's harder when you let them fail and get a dirt bike and they dislocate their hip. Or when do you step in? Because what, what's next? It's going to be real hard to let them fail if we think they're picking the wrong person. To be their wife.

That's— yeah, that is choppy waters. I know.

I'm terrified of it all.

I know we've seen some boyfriends come in the picture and we're like, oh, and you didn't say nothing.

Well, did they ask?

We did.

Okay. Okay.

Not initially. There is a place, but over time, when a pattern of dysfunction showed up, we were like, like, come on, like, what's happening? Yeah, this person is clear. Exactly. So you need to— yeah, so for sure, you know. But then also, you know, like, our oldest is married. They've been married a couple years, um, or 3 years I think now. And, um, early marriage is challenging. Like, they've got financial restraints. He's building a house for them, you know. So there's just— and they have a brand new baby. Well, she's 2 now, but, you know, just all those things. She moved from Canada to the US. Yeah, so lots of stuff. And, you know, they've got to work it out. That's what marriage is. You're figuring each other out, you're figuring out your situation, where you're going, all that sort of stuff. And so, you know, that's not for us to stick our nose into. Like, that's her marriage. That's a precious thing that she needs to take care of. They need to figure out for themselves. So in that way, you know, we wouldn't, get involved. But when it's a boyfriend, there's still time to divert the ship, right?

Yeah.

And by the way, I meant to say this in the beginning, we roll, we roll a show. If there's ever anything I ask and you don't want to go there, you can just say, okay, we don't want to go there, and we'll cut that part out. Yeah, we just keep rolling. Oh, let's go into that. So, um, you said at all these different stages we're seeking easier, where one— we're saying, oh, it's going to be easier when they can wipe their butt, or it's going to be easier when they're a teenager. No, it's going to be easier when they're 31. What, um, why are we always seeking easier? And is that okay?

No.

Well, and the reason why I would say is just even that example you gave with, uh, your son and the seat example because there's so many different ways to sort through problems. And, uh, who's to say that our way is better than their way? And, and I think that failure is such a huge part of life. Uh, and I think for, uh, kids, like, challenges are necessary. Life is structured on challenges, and whether you embrace that challenge or whether you turn the other direction and run. And I think Tara and I, uh, we quite often say that reflection on our past on many occasions, sometimes the hardest circumstances we've been in have actually taught us the most and actually are some of the most precious moments of our lives. And I think challenge and failure are inextricably tied to life and to living a full life because, like, I want to take risk. I want to have challenges. I don't want a bland life. And, and I think because of that, with kids, it's, it's a great example, like helicopter parents that want want to remove every last possible danger from their lives, including not swinging from monkey bars or walking on balance beams, are going to create kids that are scared of going on monkey bars, balance beams, going up the trail, climbing the mountain, and they're not going to be able to experience things fully. And then maybe the one time where they make a miscalculation, they're going to fall off and break a bone because they just haven't had that awareness of how to interact appropriately with their environments and take calculated risks. And I think that's such a big part of who we are is just assessing our situation and making a decision because a decision is necessary and moving forward and whether it results in failure or not, failure is equally as beneficial as success in terms of moving forward and evolving.

Yeah. Rebecca, tell them that story with Dr. Laura, what Dr. Laura said, because, you know, after Jonah got in his dirt bike accident, Do you need something?

No, no, he's just pounding the back of the chair. When he talks, he uses his hand. So he's going like this on the back of me. Annoying stuff.

You guys need to have a good little talk over there.

We're good now.

You guys give each other rules. She doesn't even like the way I drink drink water. It bothers her.

It can be annoying.

When we used to sauna together, I just couldn't drink in the water and drink in the sauna.

Are you better eating ice cream cones now?

And I guess I don't like the way she eats ice cream cones.

I guess we don't eat ice cream cones anymore. It's not gonna have gluten.

Yeah.

Of— no, no.

So we didn't want— you know, he, he didn't just dislocate his hip, he Got a hip replacement at 15.

Yeah.

And so we're hesitant about getting this dirt bike again. Well, what did Dr. Laura say?

So I listen to Dr. Laura sometimes when I'm riding in the car and a mom had called and said, you know, my son, he was like mountain biking or something and he got very injured and now he wants to do it again. And Dr. Laura is like, so you have to let him do it. And she's like, but— and she's like, yeah, I know. Like, you're scared that he's going to get injured again because he's already been injured. But we have to let boys have this outlet because there are men who jump out of helicopters to save people.

Right.

And we have to have those people in society because they help people.

Right.

And that might be something that, you know, like kind of like helping her. So I came home and I was like, darn it, because we had taken away the dirt bike.

Okay.

We parked it. We were like, we're done. I don't want anyone to ride the dirt bike, the four-wheeler, nothing. Like, it's just too dangerous. Like, it was, you know, it was like 18 months of insanity, you know? And so I came home and I like thought about it. And the next day at dinner I was like, so do you guys want to ride the dirt bike? And they're like, yes. I was like, all right, you can start riding it again. And they were like, really?

Oh, that's awesome.

Like, yeah. So now they're riding the dirt bike, but I see Jonah doing it. It scares me.

Yeah.

I'm just like, yeah. But, you know, I mean, it is what it is and I can't, I can't shield him from it.

You know, that's the hard stuff about being a parent. And I think it shows like growth and evolution is when, like you said, It scares me and you're still letting him do it 'cause it's the right thing. And parenting, I think, teaches us that a lot, that maybe what the right thing to do is not within our comfort level at all. It would be great to like shrink wrap them and make sure everything goes well. But I mean, I think we see an epidemic of young people right now having grown up in this new age of parenting.

A bubble wrap.

Yeah, a real lack of confidence. And you know, everyone's like, oh, self-confidence, but confidence, real confidence comes from us challenging ourselves. Like no one can give it to you. You can't tell someone you're good or great job and that instills confidence. It's a very personal intimate thing and it's finding ourselves in a pickle and getting ourselves out again and again and again, or some sort of hardship that we persevere through and we accomplish something. And it's like, you start to trust yourself. Like, okay, now I'm in this weird situation, but I'm gonna get out of it because you have trust in yourself. To me, that's what self-confidence is. And I think we're just in this desert of, of our understanding of ourselves and what we're capable of. And so everyone's looking outside of themselves for instruction and direction on how to do things without being willing to just try it and fail because they don't know that they can actually get themselves out of it anymore. And I think that's a real gift to give to our children. It's something that that you need for your whole life.

So you're not a big fan of the participation trophy?

I love the red ink.

Did you, uh, did you watch the movie Whiplash? You probably don't watch too many.

No, I think we did watch it.

That's probably a good one.

When was it?

It was a really intense musical instructor.

Yes, we did.

He was abusive.

Screaming at him.

Yes.

Remember that line? Nothing great came from two words: good job.

Oh, I don't remember that line, but there it is. Yeah.

Saying that.

No, it was—

that was actually so hard on his students.

Yeah, it was. It was. We watched it with the kids and they were kind of like, yeah, we were like, are you not getting like, okay. Yeah, we kind of had to like explain some things to them.

And he's pushing him. He's pushing him to— he's just being really hard on him. He really wants him to succeed, but he's being, you know, had to explain it to the kids.

Yeah, yeah.

One thing I would say about, uh, Jonah's situation, it's interesting, eh, because a big part of my military background was parachuting. And, uh, whenever we had like a, a near miss, a wrap, like a near fatality, the most important thing for us was to immediately get back up and do it again. And I would say like, interesting thing with Jonah's like a motorbike accident, like accidents will happen, but he's the one that went through that. He's the one that had the surgeries. And so he's probably in a spot now where riding, like he has confidence, but it's also earned experience and he's gonna know better now what risk is appropriate and what's not. So it's gonna be a lot more calculated because I think as a parent, it's like we don't want our kids to suffer, but we can't make decisions for them either because ultimately they're the ones that have to navigate through life once they leave like a home. And I think it's pretty neat actually. And I love the fact that he's back on a bike because I think it's so important.

So they started wheeling Yeah. And I was—

I saw him going up the hill with it. Yeah.

So it was interesting when they were wheeling, they would— Jonah would kind of like keep one leg on the ground. You know, he was like afraid to commit to it completely, but he is now committed completely to the wheelie. I'm just like, all right, here we go. It's just what it is. Well, it's funny because like they weren't riding the dirt bike for a while and I was like, what happened? Because like, you know, we'd give it— it was just sitting in the basement and they had to get a part for it and they just hadn't gone. It was like, it's always closed on Monday. They're always going that way on Monday. I don't know. Anyways, they ended up getting the part. He made a special trip because I kind of was like, why aren't you riding the dirt bike? Like, what happened?

Is it broken?

And he made a special trip that day to get it so they could get back on and they're back. They're back riding it. Yeah. No, I agree. I would say 100% that Jonah Jonah especially, he pushes himself so much in certain areas.

Like, he embraces the awkwardness of situations, and he had to conquer that fear of actually getting back on the—

well, he got—

he did get—

he—

we let him get back on it right, like, when he could, because, you know, there was a while he couldn't put any pressure, he couldn't bear weight for like 6— he was in a wheelchair when he came home from the hospital.

Wow.

Um, and then he learned how to use a walker, and then he got more proficient with crutches, and then he had to do 6 weeks with no weight on it. And then once then he did get back on it, I think— was he wearing a brace? I can't remember. It's like, it's been a lot.

Tell me your opinion on this then. The doctor told him, what, you know, what can I do, doctor? What can I do? Well, don't run a marathon. The run is not going to be that good for you. Um, we didn't think it was a big deal. Well, now he's wanting to run, and you tell me, you know, I tell you I had to quit running, it broke my heart, and you're like, running's for Birds, just lift weights or whatever. Run is not that great for humans in general. Well, what do we do there? He's really wanting to run. He'll just go and run 12 miles.

He ran 10 miles up the mountain.

I'm like, what do I do?

5 miles up and 5 miles down.

I hold my tongue. He'll say he's gonna go do it, and I'm kind of like— and he's like, what, are you not happy? And I was like, well, the doctor said not, but go, you know, go ahead. It's your body. You're 17. I I mean, he's going to be a legal adult in less than half a year.

Yeah, he has calmed it down. I think he had some, like, he felt a little bit like in his hip was a little sore and stuff like that. He's kind of like, I think I'm going to give it up. Like, you know, the running. I mean, like, go run 4 miles. Why do you have to do 10? You know, like, I don't know.

Maybe that's the way. Compromise.

Yeah, it's probably a bit of a compromise. And I guess, I don't know, when it comes to running, I've kind of settled on the idea if I ever need to run, I probably only need to run like less than 3 kilometers. And, and I think it's so much better for like maintaining like muscle size, overall fitness and running like long distance. I just don't think has any value in terms of the overall degradate. My personal opinion is that has overall degradation on the body for joints and everything else.

Yeah.

I don't know, like a run shorter and try and get faster.

I guess I'm gonna just have to let him make that mistake.

Yeah, that's a good idea. Run shorter and try to get faster.

Yeah, mark himself up.

Yeah, we tried to curve him into, uh, what are these crazy races? Mud runs.

Yeah, yeah.

I was like, just do this. They're only 5— they're all 3, like, you know, a sprint, but they're more adventurous.

And he was just like, yeah, well, we looked at it and it's kind of wild.

They have like an electrocution.

He just wants to have—

well, there's lots of different versions of that. Are there? Yeah.

He's like, I don't want to do the electrician.

There's new ones out there.

He's been, he's been electrocuted from the fence enough. He's like, I don't want to, I don't want to touch the fence. I don't blame him.

So, but I think what you were saying there, Justin, he is 17 too. And I think these are the decisions that he's going to now be experimenting with on his own. And I think, yeah, just bring it back to what we were saying before. Like, I think for Tara and I, like, we can offer suggestions and whatever else, but ultimately I think now they're at the point when they need to spread their wings and see what happens.

Well, with his hip replacement, the doctor gave us options and I let him choose.

Yeah, exactly.

Because he was 15. I'm like, it's your body. Because the one that I would have chosen was the ceramic, the ceramic ball, the ceramic liner. But 6% of people squeak and Joe didn't want to squeak. So he has a plastic liner. But you need a ceramic ball.

Okay.

So it's not ideal, but it is what it is. I'm trying to—

I'm—

I need to— he needs to start taking Shilajit because I've read that that can help with microplastics in the body.

And I'm like, in sauna?

Yeah, yeah, he does sauna and he does sweat a lot. You know, he is playing soccer this season and—

oh nice.

It's so funny, he's like— he's such a farm kid because he goes out there and he's like running and, you know, it's 90 degrees and it's cold or hot and And the, um, the other kids are just wimps. I hate to say that. They're wimps. They're like, it's so hot.

And he's just like, I mean, it's hot, but like, it's not that bad, mom.

Because he's a farm kid. Like, he can, he can hang. Like, he can, he can, he has that experience of having to work through the really hot times. Like, you know, or the really cold times, you know, like he can, he can handle that or whatever. Anyway.

Well, strength and fortitude, I think born on a farm is, is kind of unmatched, I think, in the, like, conventional urban, like, because of all the reasons I think you just said, right? Like, it's being outside in the sun, persevering through a task, like carrying the, the water buckets. It's funny that even in the weightlifting world, they have like a— was it farmer's carry?

They call it farmer's carry.

I know.

They're trying to replicate, I think, the Uh, yeah, the ability to build that endurance, strength endurance and everything else.

Yeah. And they can totally do it. And it's— we have grown men come and they're like, is that your kid? Like, yeah. And they're like, man, farm kids are just built different.

That's awesome. Tell me what you think about this. So we're in the— I'm in the stage now where I'm thinking, okay, um, Yeah, Lily, play with him.

Look at that little white body.

They— our boys are getting into soccer and they've gotten on this team. I'm really glad that we waited until they were 16 and can drive their own selves to these things. I'm really glad that what we decided to do when the children were young is we were just always all together.

Together.

We didn't send our daughter off to ballet and the boy off to this. I really— because those are more individual. I feel like I'm happy that we stayed together when they were young, and we would maybe go on— and for those activities, we'd go on hikes together or this and that together.

Um, well, we played soccer together as a family.

Yeah, and we'd have a soccer night and the community could come or whatever. Whatever. But then now the exception is Lily. She really developed a passion and is now off on horses and does do that individually. But I do kind of wish we would have waited until she was 16 and take herself to these things. But, uh, anyway, the point is they're going off to soccer and Rebecca and I are sitting here thinking, okay, we are— we want to support their dream because they supported our dream for so long. Um, and that means we're gonna have to sacrifice. I mean, we're about staying at home, and now we're gonna go to soccer games.

Well, he's having one tonight.

They're usually around dinner time.

I know, they're the worst times.

You know, if you were involved in hockey, um, you have to give up something if you're going to do hockey, if you're going to do soccer. Is it, they're getting older, I want to support them in their dreams because they supported me in my dreams? Or is it, well, it's my house, it's my dream?

Well, um, like, we— our oldest daughter was a competitive rower, so we used to wake up at 4:30 in the morning to bring her to rowing practice. And every weekend was a regatta, every weekend. She actually got a scholarship to a US university from Canada. And she came home one day in grade 12 after 4 years of committing ourselves to that. And our funds were pretty meager at that time, you know, so it was an expense, it was time. We had 2 younger kids, our whole, Weekends often throughout the summer were shaped around her. And she came home one day and, you know, here we thought she was going on this scholarship to the US and she said, "I'm never rowing again." And we were like, "Yeah, right." She's like, "No, I'm done. I'm done." And we were like, "Okay, you're tired." You know? And she said, "No, I'm done." And she was like, done. She was done. And her coaches were like, no, like, and everyone was like, that's impossible, like, no one's done in their grade 12 year when they're about to get a scholarship. And she never wrote again.

Really?

Yeah. And so we were like, wow, because we were in that stream, never pushing her. It was always something she wanted to do. And Lord knows we would have preferred not to have been doing that as much as we had to do it. But she said, "I got what I needed out of it and I'm done." Like, and she really was. And so that was like a really big learning lesson for us because the natural inclination is to be like, "But you're so close. Like, you're gonna get a scholarship." And she was like, "To what? I don't even wanna go to those schools. Like, I don't wanna row anymore. So I'm gonna get a scholarship and I have to row every day? Like, I'm," you know? And so, so we, um, yeah, that was just— it was— it's— I, I think it's important for us to like, um, support them and let them explore what interests them and everything. But I also think the way that sports and stuff are set up now is bizarre, you know? Like, when we were kids, if you played soccer, you just played soccer, like, you know? Or if you played hockey, you'd go do pond hockey or whatever. And then over the years, it's just gotten to this point where if a kid plays, you know, they have to do this camp and that camp and they're going to like the competitive level and like hockey in Canada, you're doing hockey camp all summer long. Like, you know, you're going to, so it just gets, I think that it's okay to set limits on these things and fit things into how they go. But I also do think it's important to let kids figure out the kind of stuff that they're into and they're curious about. But have it within the structure that works for the family. Because, you know, in hindsight, would I have allowed, would we have like encouraged it as much as we did? Maybe. But it really taught us that, you know, it's supposed to be something that, I mean, sports should be something that develops a kid and that they have fun doing. And it's not, it shouldn't be, I don't think, a central focus of a family. I just think that it's too costly in many ways.

Was Tyra the one that told us, like, she came home like, I'm not a one-trick pony? Was she the one that said that?

I'm not a one-trick pony. Yeah, that was Tyra.

Just in a sense too, like, I think that's kind of the benefit with, like, raising kids in such a diverse environment is they have multiple interests and they recognize that, uh, life is about diversity and life is about following different interests. It's not about just one thing.

It's not a monoculture.

Yeah, and that's—

yeah, it sounds like you let them follow their dreams. You, you, you, you supported them in their dreams from very early on.

I wouldn't say we supported them in their interests, and we also very much wanted to allow them the opportunity to pursue different interests. But I would say that we never— like, even with our daughter, uh, Mila, like, she was a hockey player. And, uh, and so with her, like, we kept her kind of at the, um, out-of-rep hockey for the longest time. And just because—

which is just a high level of hockey, so it's like daily coat, um, practices and stuff like that.

So because we really wanted her to develop just the love for hockey, like a love for going on the ice, the love of skating, shooting a puck, whatever else. I think we did a really good job about that. There was quite a ways into her hockey career. She wanted to challenge herself and just try out for a rep team. And so Tara and I hummed and hawed about that for a fair bit because we knew there'd be an impact on the family in terms of like just what you were saying in terms of time and interest. But I think in the end we decided to let her try out and then she had made the team. I think that year we did it for a year.

We did it at the local team though. Yeah, it was a small small farmer.

But she also, once she tried the competitive, recognized too just the time commitment. And then she, from there, I think went to play the next year like hockey, like in our local town again, kind of at a rec level, just because she very quickly recognized that the competitive side, that it was losing the appeal and joy that it had at the, the, with the, I don't know, just at the, the fun side.

The play.

Yeah.

Yeah.

And like, I grew up playing competitive hockey and I kind of strongly believe, for me anyways, that a hockey player only has a certain number of hockey games in them. And if you expend that all over a short period of time, like competitive hockey, you're kind of done. Whereas a lot of people that I grew up with that never played competitive hockey, but always played like in the community level, the fun level, they are loving it. And there's one friend we have that's like 72 now and he's on the ice. Really? Yeah. His total passion. Yeah, but it's because he never had the year-round—

wasn't like that, man, on the go.

And he's always maintained that love of it, which is really interesting because I haven't stepped on the ice now for 2 years. I haven't really played in a hockey game for a long time. So it's, it's just—

and you don't miss hockey?

Not at all.

Your guys' approach was more— that comes back to the way you approach more of an unschooling approach, is, uh, you're, you're letting the children pursue their interests. If it works within us. And they'll learn and teach themselves anything.

Yeah, if it worked within us. Like when Mila was young, like she started playing hockey at 3 and a half actually, but we were on a base, a remote base, and Troy was gone a lot and I could literally walk to the rink and she got to play with some friends on the ice. Like, so it all worked out within that structure. But you know, when we're out on a farm, farm and it's an hour, an hour and a half into town or 4 hours to go to like these other places and something has to give. That's just the realities of life. We wanted them to be able to pursue these things but also not be slaves to their pursuits because the truth is this is how we live and it's a family affair. Yeah, we did try to.

We're a detriment to the family because I think even in terms of sports, it was also a matter of like you were talking about a lot of things that going to your like courses and everything else, taking the entire family for Tyra's regattas. We went as a family.

Yeah, we had picnics, we played in. Yeah.

So we made it a family.

It was always, always a family thing. Yeah.

See, that's how it hasn't worked out for the horse shows that way. Yeah, because our boys are older.

We made them come.

We had them come in the beginning and then and it was just a nightmare. And it was just not fun.

Yeah.

And it was just really unenjoyable for them. Like, we could tell, like, they weren't— they didn't complain or anything, but we kind of made it—

Well, they complain. Now it's kind of a date for me and you to go on a horse show. Well, we just try to balance that. Lily, you can only do 4 horse shows a year.

Yeah, we just put limits on it. I mean, she would go every weekend. Yeah. If we let her. So we are— we have like said, okay, you know, and she, she has horses here, like, enjoy them here. Like, that time of going, going, going can happen later. You know, you're young. She's gonna be 14, like, in 2 weeks, so she's got plenty of time. Yeah, yeah.

Going back to the suffering thing, did you guys grow up Catholic?

I did. He grew— he's Mennonite.

You grew up really, or are you still Mennonite?

No.

Was this Old Order Mennonite?

No, it was more— I'm not sure. So it wasn't Old Order. Like, uh, so my grandpa was actually a pastor, had a Mennonite Brethren Church, and, uh, I'm not sure what to call it. It's more contemporary Mennonite, I guess.

Like, okay, okay, we were progressive.

Progressive.

That's the word.

Too bad, it would have been more fun.

He'd have some horse skills, wouldn't he? I know, that could come in handy someday. Um, The reason I bring that up, and you can tell me if I'm wrong, but it seems— because I'm coming more from an evangelical Protestant background. Yeah, there's always a tinge. There's some extreme prosperity gospel, of course. There's always a tinge. It seems like there was always a tinge of prosperity gospel. And the way I grew up, it was like God is a genie in the bottle. Please bless me, you know, bless this meal. Oh, heal, blah, blah, blah. It was always this relief, you know, making a wish in a prayer, right? So, um, but with the Catholics, I've been to a few masses, and it seems like there's— I hear, I keep hearing talk of suffering as maybe it's a, you know, okay or a good thing or good for us. Is that true?

Do you see that in the way you were When the way I was raised? Yeah, I can see that for sure. Yeah.

Tell me more about that.

Well, I think in addition to that sort of worldview was just that my— so my family, my mom's side of the family was immigrants from Slovakia. And I think traditionally, you know, they're staunch Catholics, but also traditionally that sort of it's in their blood and bones, this strife and sacrifice, having communists steal their land and the wars and living a peasant lifestyle of hardscrabble and stuff was sort of all woven into that. So I think I definitely saw that, and I think it's funny that you said that because I didn't understand up until actually a few months ago that America I'm, correct me if I'm wrong because I'm not American, I don't wanna speak out of turn, but that you're sort of, this country was sort of based on a Protestant faith. And is that fair? It's true. Oh yeah.

Yeah, they were escaping, they were escaping, was it the Catholic church?

Oh, I don't know.

Yeah.

I'm really not showing my history here.

But it's—

I mean, they were coming here for religious freedoms.

Right, the Protestants, right. So yeah, I think that's sort of a different ethos. And I just actually did an essay a couple months ago and it was called "God is Good." And it was about how I bristle when people say that. It really bothers me. And it's not because God is good, because obviously God is good, but it's how people use it. And I notice it often when something good happens, or people will show something, a beautiful house and say, "God is good." Or things are in your favor, you get something, like you said, almost a superstition that's attached to it, and God is good. And I saw a woman whose child was in the hospital, very, very sick in the hospital. And, you know, was sharing publicly about this saga. And in the end, the baby was well and she left the pediatric ICU, and it was— God is good. When she left, all I thought about were the 16 other babies she had been writing about in the pediatric ICU. And I was thinking, so God is not good, right? So you're 'favored one,' and I don't think that's how people mean it, but that's how it comes across. And I just really, I don't like that we do that because I think it's such a superficial understanding of the gifts that God gives us. And then on the other side of it, I also don't think it's all suffering and we're here to live this lowly existence and it is only through death and being, entering heaven, that the riches are bestowed upon us after having suffered through, or, you know, this, this wicked, evil life. I also don't— I very strongly bristle against that too. So I don't know if that's clear or not, but yeah.

Well, if you track that, that line of thinking, you do have to end up saying, well, what are you, God's favorite?

Well, that's it, because so if God is good, is there times when God's not good? Like if you didn't leave the ICU with your baby Well, are you still gonna say, is God still good? Yeah, because that— yeah, or is God bad? But I mean, faith requires that we believe that there is a divinity, a divine brilliance in God. And so if we believe that God is good, he's always good.

Yeah.

And that to me is what faith really is. You know, our 18-year-old daughter died 4 years ago And I feel like my faith is stronger than it's ever been. And, and would I have ever said, like, a month after my daughter died, God is good? Of course not. Like, people rail against God in such situations. But I also never felt mad at God. Like, I, I do have— I do have faith. And that doesn't mean I see wisdom in it. I don't, like I'm a lowly human being. I see no wisdom in that, but I have faith that there is a reason behind these things that are mysterious and wide-reaching and I will never know and never understand. And can I love God anyway? And I do very much feel like I have faith in a decision that is the most abhorrent thing most agonizing thing that ever happened in our lives. And still, like, yeah. And to me, to me personally, that's what faith is.

Um, I want to talk to you more about that. Let me see what Jonah needs.

Okay, I think you're supposed to wear green.

Just take it in case.

Take the green.

Okay, good.

We're, uh, we're very new to all of this.

Is it a game or a practice? Oh, well, good luck. Good luck.

Josiah's playing. No, Josiah's not.

Have a good night.

Drive safe.

Okay.

Be dangerous in a good way.

Nice try. I'm not buying it.

Justin used to say, be dangerous, because he'd say, like, in retaliation of be safe.

Yeah.

You don't have to tell them to be safe. I mean, they're going to automatically do that themselves.

Yeah, I hope.

Just be dangerous. If you see somebody on the side of the road and needs help, be dangerous and help them.

Yeah.

It's a good way of putting it.

Yeah, I like it.

That kind of thing. Thing. All right, not, not speed, 90 miles an hour. All right, well, thank you for sharing that. That's been 4 years, and that's Myla?

Mila.

Mila.

Yeah, yeah, Mila.

Um, where are you now with that?

You know, I Do you want me to talk?

Is it okay that we go there too?

That's fine.

That's fine. It's okay.

No, it's okay. I think I was just talking to our oldest daughter about this the other day. One of Mila's friends, who was one of her closest friends when she was alive, comes to visit me every now and then. And she came and we sat at the picnic table under the old apple tree. This was just last week. And We just sat with her for a few hours and we talked about it and she wanted to ask me questions and she wasn't sure if it was okay to ask me questions or what she could say and what she couldn't say. And I just said, anything, we can talk about anything. And she had told me that her parents like get really squirmish talking around death and stuff. And I just was thinking how emblematic that was of what we do with each other. You know, we leave people alone in pain because we can't feel the pain ourselves. And I don't want to live that way. Like, I, I had such a beautiful conversation with this young woman, and it was because I was willing to— like, it hurts, you know, to talk about these things, but I want to talk about these things. And, and we were able to connect in that way. And I think that's the thing that we've really learned, is that there's no healing. Like, you don't heal when your child dies. It's the most excruciating thing in the world, but you learn to have that pain and you use that pain to really find the beauty and the love in the rest of your life. Um, and so by by not squishing it away or diverting yourself from it, but actually having it there with you, you are able to have this open, raw heart, and you're able to love and connect with people and just always, like, it's like our lives are so precious. And that's the gift of holding death near and the awareness where all of us sitting in this room are just a blip. In 100 years, no one's gonna even and, you know, there's nothing left of us. And it's not even gonna be that long. And so that holding that close to you, it's not morbid at all. It's actually quite beautiful. And I think that was the gift that we were given is our mortality because it's so fleeting. And so you can really appreciate the beauty and the love that you have and the people around you and the sweet, simple little moments. Um, and that's, that's a gift too. And, you know, and I'll die forever missing my daughter. She was such an important part of our family, and she was just a brilliant, wickedly funny, loving, empathetic, courageous young woman. Like, the best thing. She was the best of things. And, you know, It's how, you know, the fact that, that she's gone doesn't change all of that stuff too. And so we want to remember her how she was, you know, and, and she will forever be an important part of our family. And it's funny, you know, like we have our granddaughter now who's 2 and a half and she's a little spitfire. And just being around her, you can see, you know, You know, these things carry through our bones and our blood. And there's just little— she's her own person, of course. And, you know, we adore her, but she's just all that more precious to us. And to see that sort of all those little things that we so adored in her mom and her auntie in Mila, like we see in her. And it's just quite a marvel, this life. And yeah, do you want to add anything to that, or—

No, I think you said in your book on page 195, although this one's not for resale or for quotation, it might be a different page. You'll have to correct me if I misquote you here. I've learned that salvation comes not at once, but in drips. It can't come if we're running from something. It's too quiet, too slow for that. Salvation comes when we sit, head in hands, open and aware. It comes in tandem and with misery, hand in hand with anguish.

Yeah, and that's what we take from people when we tell people that that everything life is supposed to be happy and easy and pleasurable, it, it becomes a superficial skim of what life is really able to offer us. And, um, then everybody walks around hungry and trying to fill in holes with all sorts of addictions and diversions and, um, you meaningless relationships and all these sorts of things. Because there's— our beings, our souls know when they're not being nourished and will forever be craving something. And no one knows what it is because our culture tells us it's all— we're here to have, you know, good vibes only, this whole sort of thing. But the depth and the meaning in our lives gets lost in that.

Um, there's somebody that works with us that lost a son. How old was the son? He was— is he a teen, a young 20?

I think he was like 11 or 12.

Yeah, I know he had some challenges. He had some medical challenges, medical challenges, but still they loved him dearly and were invested in him. And, uh, we marked the calendar and asked him about him every time, his death anniversary.

It's hard to ask, but, uh, we try to like bring flowers and give them something like, uh, you know, nobody asks anymore.

Yeah, well, I think that's so true, and I think that's one of the hardest parts, or harder parts, like, uh, afterwards was just we so much want to hear Mila's name. Like, we want to bring her and everything that she was is such a beautiful, vibrant soul kind of back out into the sunlight and revel in her memories and talk about who she was. And it's interesting how I think so many people are so reluctant to even put their foot in the doorstep or even kind of venture in that space, because I, I don't know why. Because I think it's so comforting to hear Mila's name.

Okay.

So comforting to hear like, uh, the stories, to, to have somebody remember, to have this again beautiful spirit come by and visit Tara, like, and ask questions. And just, uh, I don't know, it's such a nice connection that is so intimate and connecting between people, but yet I think it's so rare, unfortunately, in our society. Yeah, I think people are fearful of death. People, I don't know, there's no more hurt that could be incurred. And quite the contrary, I think just asking the question, asking, saying her name.

Yeah.

Anything like just, just so that we know that we'll never forget her. Like, and we'll always bring her out into the sunlight and speak to her and talk to her. But just to know that others have also cared and do care. I think is so important.

Yeah. It's interesting that you said you like to hear her name because I felt led to make sure we spoke her name and make sure I got it right. Mila, right? Mila.

Yeah.

Okay. I'll tell you why people are afraid or, you know, why it's— because I can tell you from my perspective, I don't want to hurt you.

Yeah.

I don't want to— we don't— I— well, I I've learned a long time ago that the parents want their child's name said that has passed. Like, it's important for that to happen. So we actually had, um, I, I'm not friends with this person, but she had her, her baby died and we were going and the people I was with were friends with this person. And I said, make sure you say the baby's name. And then when we got back in the car, she said, thank you so much for telling me to say her name because it meant so much to her mom. Mom. And I didn't know that. And I just remember—

you're just gonna rip them apart.

Yeah, yeah. But the thing is, they're ripped apart, right? Okay, they are ripped apart. Okay, there's no— can you imagine? No, you can't. Yeah, until you live it. Okay, no one can. And so there's no— nothing you can inflict upon me that will ever hurt me more in my life.

That's the point.

And so saying, saying the name, it I mean, there are people that might be startled because they're trying not to remember it. Yeah, it's with you. It never goes away.

I don't know if most people are as aware and abrasive of it as you all are. Um, okay, so my fear would be— and it's good to hear you say, well, we're never going to heal, because our fear from this perspective is you've healed a little bit and we're gonna ask some dumb question and it's gonna tear open again.

It's not possible. It's just not possible.

I was afraid to ask you last night, so I'll ask you tonight. You know, I was afraid to say, do you still wake up in a nightmare?

No.

4 years later, he's saying yes.

No, I wouldn't say no. Very much aware that's like, uh, I'm in the after. Like, I think like we had a tribe of 5, a family of I wouldn't say that we're living a nightmare now, but we've been through a nightmare. And I couldn't think of anything more tragic for a parent to experience than the orderly, like unnatural death of a child. But I'm definitely in the after. Like, I think on Mila's gravestone we have like delight in whatever sunlight remains. And for me, I think that's very true because I think those words were The phrase was chosen with such care to put onto our gravestones so that we know that absolutely now we can still delight and have that joy and experience. And then the sunlight is still here, but we're also very, or I am very, very aware of the darkness and the sadness and grief that goes with, I think, loving a daughter, loving our daughters so completely and so wholly, and having now only 2 daughters being of this physical realm and one that soars above. Like, that's like, I am definitely in the after.

And what do you mean in the after?

Um, that before Mila died, our family was whole. Um, and that, uh, you just never think of life, I guess you want to see— we've been talking about it— like your kids going through the seasons of their lives, experiencing different things at different ages, us as parents like growing and evolving with them. We can't experience that with Mila after she died at the age of 18 because she only had 18 years on this life or 18 years of life in this world, but who's to say that she didn't fully experience all the seasons of her life within that 18 years? And I think this is the questions, the reflection, the challenging of our thoughts that go through having weathered, I think, a tragedy of this in our family, so.

Did that person who asked you all these questions, were any of those questions offensive or hurtful?

Who?

Mila's friend that came to visit you?

Not at all. It, it was hurtful in the sense that she asked some raw questions, um, around the circumstances of her death. And so Okay, you know, we were both crying, but I was so happy to be able to answer those questions.

Okay.

Yeah. So offensive— I couldn't be offended around that at all.

Yeah.

Um, no.

Do you have any— do any other of Mila's friends come around, or no?

None.

So it's very special that she's coming.

It's very special. Yeah.

Does she know that, how special it Yes.

Yeah. She, when she was leaving, I gave her a hug and she said, "I think it's good for you that I come." And I said, "It is good for me." And she said, "And it's good for me too." And I said, "I'm glad." Yeah.

Is Mila buried on your farm?

She's, there's a little cemetery by our, like less than a kilometer away. And so she, that's where she is. And we had, stone carver carve her image into some stone by hand. And yeah, he did a really beautiful job. He's actually doing ours now, which I mean, people used to buy their headstones before they died, right? You didn't leave that to your kids.

We planned to have it. We're doing a cemetery on farm.

Oh, nice.

And we started it before the hurricane. And then after the hurricane, we just, you know, it fell to the wayside. We still have mom's ashes ashes. So we're gonna bury her, and we have Justin's dad's ashes as well. We're gonna bury him.

Yeah.

In the— and then we're gonna, you know, kind of lay it out. We want to— we want to be prepared for our children, um, eventually to—

like you said, you are more ready to talk about it now, whereas I suppose you weren't before because you shared more on social than you used to. You know, you were calculated there, I would Oh yeah, for sure.

Like, I mean, you know, by and large people are kind, but people are also weird, some people, and that's just too close. Or I don't— nobody can— I'm not interested in people's judgments or con— you know, weird sort of stuff around it. That's just being, you know, in an intimate conversation like this with people I trust is, is one thing, but throwing it out into the internet Yeah. Yeah.

So what do you say to somebody? Tell Rebecca and I, because we're getting in our upper 40s, we're going to have friends and family and close people that are going to go through hard times, real hard times, and we're going to be there for them at the raw time. What do we say or do during that?

Well, you know what, I might— Troy has a friend whose wife just died and they have a baby. So Troy's been really, and he has another friend who just died and they have 4 teenagers, 2 men that were with their lifelong partners. And so he's been very much actively involved with them and trying to be there for them. So maybe you can answer that.

Yeah, there's no guidebook. I'd probably say just And one thing that I've been very much trying to do for both those dear friends is just to, to be there in whatever capacity I could be. Because I know after Mila died, like, I think the one other variation— there's many variations of individuals, but the one other variation was individuals that were just waiting for us to get back to normal and they just stayed away. Oh, just waiting for us to get back into our routine, get back into our life. And I think they're waiting for that moment to step back into our lives and reconnect. And that just rings so hollow and so false for me. And so I think the one thing over the last year and in the other circumstance over the last couple of months, I've been very much trying to do is just be there, whether it be as a listening ear to say like their wives' names, to— Yeah. Ask them about their wives in terms of what made them them. Like, what were some of their favorite memories? Asking to see pictures and just really checking in, but checking in also with the thought and the idea And actually also verbally stating it too, is that no expectation for a reply. Like, it's just, I'm here. Like, if you want to go for a walk, you want to go shoot some steel plates, if you want to go on some rabbits, if you want to do whatever, or just go for a walk and be side by side, like whatever, whatever you need me for. And, and also I think just to really Not that they're hard questions, but I think they are harder to ask just because we think that we might be offending somebody. But just, I think harder questions really allow both individuals to take thoughts that might be rattling around in their head to be put through the process of being put into words, because otherwise it's just contained within. But as you ask questions, and ask about certain circumstances or certain feelings or what's happening with kids or relationships, it allows the ability to take all that emotion and bring it to the forefront because I think only in that way can we really become fully aware of what we're experiencing as opposed to just bottling it up and having it contaminate us within.

So I think the, the one thing, like Troy said, that is the details is what matters, is saying to someone who's just in a lot of grief, if you need anything, I'm here, is just a total cop-out. Okay, they, they— you have no ability to reach out to people. You just don't. And so, to be honest, like, the first year after Mila died, Troy and I just— we were mad at people. Like, I was mad at my friends, and I was mad at my family, and I was mad at people because we were so isolated and the people that came through. And I still remember this, like there was a mom that used to sit with me in the stands in hockey. We weren't even friends. I mean, you know, we of course say hi and everything. She was at my house. She was calling me. She was— she came and brought me a plant. She came and hugged me, drove all the way down, just said, I needed to hug you. I wanted to hug you. Like, just Just consistently being there and like, "I got this." Just those kinds of things really astonished me is what people's capacity was and what people were, because I'm not gonna reach out to you when I have grief. Troy will send his friends messages, phone them, call them and just check in, just be checking in. I think that's a really big thing. And we kind of, to be honest, I think at the core of that is we're protecting ourselves when we do that, right? Because it is hard to witness that kind of raw anguish in somebody. And like you said, Justin, you don't wanna make it worse. But you can't, you can't make it worse. It's possible you ask something and a person just starts crying, that's okay. Yeah, that pain is in them. You didn't cause that pain. You're just there with them.

I was—

stay in that space.

Yeah, I was 12-something. We went to some Civil War reenactment and they had these booths. There was a Marine there. We went up to that Marine and we said, did you ever shoot anybody? And he cried. Oh, he couldn't answer us.

But that's okay. Like, you didn't cause that.

I mean, we felt so bad. We felt so terrible. We were just curious idiots.

Yeah, but maybe, you know what, here's the thing you don't get to know. Maybe he needed that. Maybe he went away from that and it opened up something and he could tell someone, you know, these kids came up to me and said this today. I mean, that's out of your hands. That's God's business, right? But I don't— you didn't do anything bad or wrong there. Maybe you instigated a profound healing. You don't get to know that.

Yeah, yeah.

After my mom passed, I would try not to cry when people asked because it made them uncomfortable, and I didn't want—

I didn't—

I'm such a people pleaser. And yeah, but then I gave it up. Now I cry. I don't care.

You know, maybe the people I made uncomfortable needed to be made uncomfortable because they got their own thing going on, because because when I see you cry, it endears you to me because I think what a beautiful open heart. Yeah. And then that makes me feel like I can give you something now. Like you've given me something. I think that's a gift.

It's being very vulnerable. And I think shared vulnerability is a rare, precious thing. And we need more of it.

Yeah.

With the people that we love and care for, we need more shared vulnerability.

I used to think that vulnerability was a weakness, especially through my childhood. Competitive hockey, military. Like, we were always like strongest, fittest, fastest, calm, cool, collected, everything like that. But, uh, I always felt that showing vulnerability was a weakness. Like, and it's— if you show vulnerability, you get trampled on. Like, and so it was pounded out of me. But I think that's been the one, I think, amazing blessing of, uh, having a family, uh, that I absolutely adore with, uh, all women. All women. It's just this, uh, it's really showcased for me and I think really allowed me to recognize that actually vulnerability is a strength, like, uh, if it's shared in the company with people that you love.

Yeah.

So I think it's such a, it's a neat flip on it. It's not a weakness.

Yeah.

Um, yeah. Here's a documentary about a prison rehab rehab thing going on. It's one of the toughest prisons in America, and they have this group therapy. And one thing they're learning, these men, these tough guys, tattoos, you know, they've killed people. They're saying, you gotta cry like a man. You just stand there. You don't hide that. That was one thing they worked through. I thought that was pretty neat.

Yeah, it is.

These men of men, you know, these man's men, crying like men, not, not Just keeping your head up straight and letting it go.

For sure.

Troy did— oh, sorry.

No, no, you go ahead.

I was just gonna say Troy, um, has worked over the last few years with a post-traumatic stress disorder clinic that's close to us, and it's all for frontline, um, right, uh, military corrections, law enforcement, all the hard professions, and It's just been really interesting, like, hearing his stories. I mean, he can tell them better than me, but just these are the hard chargers, and they're just underneath it all, just men that, that have all this pain and they don't know what to do with it or where it's supposed to go. And just to see, you know, the sort of effects, I guess, the result that they have after all coming together as a group and opening up to each other and it's like, it's okay. Like every one of us here is dealing with this kind of stuff. It's been a profound thing, eh?

For sure. I think a lot of those professions, like it's always, I don't know, like having worked with a lot of individuals with PTSD and having gone through it myself, like, I don't know, I really have a strong feeling that individuals, number one, that put themselves themselves into those professions. Like, uh, not everyone, but I think a good percentage, uh, there are like the first in, last out, always put himself the most hazardous, most dangerous circumstances because they want to be and live in service to others. And I think oftentimes individuals that end up suffering from like a post-traumatic stress, uh, because— are because they have the biggest hearts. They're the ones that because they've done the job for so long, they've taken everybody else's pain, they just get so filled up to the brink with that pain themselves. And so I think one of the benefits with this program that I've been involved with is just that it just really creates a space where hardened men can come together, recognize that they're not alone, recognize that their pain isn't just unique to them, it actually transcends all these different professions. And then in this space, coming back to vulnerability. They can actually open up, be vulnerable, and by the very process of speaking, talking, crying, like, uh, in the company of hard and strong men, that's— it can be very beneficial to where they are in their journey.

So yeah, let me know if you need anything line, that's really just putting— giving you a task.

Yes, it is.

You're sitting there drowning. Oh, here's one more thing to do. Let me know what I can do to help. And by the way, you have to guess what I'm willing to do, right? Because I've— people have asked me this and I said, I need— would you go pick me this up at the grocery store and bring it? Oh, well, no, I can't.

I can't do that.

Well, sorry, I misguessed. Yeah, the crisis over. Over here, right? Right after the hurricane, we were in a— it was a mode for 10 days. It was a Katie bar the door, just really stressed, really intense. Just make sure every— all the animals are safe, all we're safe, neighbors. And, you know, we didn't have our house washed away, but much of our farm got washed away. We lost animals and this and that. There was— I know now there was people a lot worse off. Somebody drove down here, 4 men in a side-by-side, you know, being, you know, help the community.

Tough guys.

What do you guys— tell me what you guys need. And I was— I— it was at the end of the day. I was set down defeated on a concrete wall, and I thought, you know, I have a truck, I have a— I need a dump truck. They laughed. We were wrong. I guessed wrong. He wasn't willing to do that.

Wow.

I didn't need a dump truck.

Wow.

But the best help, it was the day of, wasn't it? That evening or maybe the next day, some people came up through here and they said, we're picking up trash.

It was like 3 or 4 days later because they're like, you know, that the trash won't, you know, you won't have trash.

And I said, well, yeah, we won't be getting our trash service. Could we unload this? Because the community's dumping in our dumpster.

They took, they, they, you got to do gloves on their hands and took the trash out of the dumpster and put it in the trailer.

So I'm noticing, if they would have then, out of— after throwing the trash in the thing, said, if there's anything else, let me know, okay, I might feel safe asking them, right? And if you're sitting there drowning, well, look, here's some dry clothes, here's another rope, here's a heater. Yeah, right. Here's $100. Yeah, that's not going to hurt anybody. Yeah, yeah, it's not going to heal it. Yeah, but you're gonna have $100 less dollars to worry about.

Yeah, yeah.

I think a big part of this too is like actions speak so much louder than words, right? So like had individuals come up here and just started picking up trash. Yeah, just come up here and with chainsaws and started clearing your roads. Like actions just mean everything. And I think along that idea too, I think we're also in a culture too where there's very little follow-through, where people will say something, uh, and they'll offer something up, but they just won't actually do it or won't follow up with it. Or, and even for the small things, because I think that's one thing that I've even learned in our relationship, like if you say something, even if it might be the smallest thing, like follow through. Because I think on that note, you're able to continually build trust, you're not eroding trust, and you're just staying true to your word. And I think our word means everything, and it has to be absolutely demonstrated through our actions. So yeah.

Yeah. Was this book—

this one?

Yeah. I gotta ask you some questions about this. It was an honor to the uncorrected proof, not for resale, not for quotation edition.

Freaking one and only.

I love those editions. Uh, and I was ready to read this because I'm ready for real, you know. I'm at that stage in homesteading. That's why I ask you too, help, help me here. So that's why I ask you too, when does the dream become a nightmare? Because I'm burned out. Yeah, we're burned out. I don't know if it's because it's been 7 years from the Great American Farm Tour, August, where we really went hard this this year?

Yeah, this year we've definitely gone the hardest we've ever gone.

It's really hard to keep ahead of it.

Um, well, it was, it was like, just like, we're really trying to quit the grocery store. Like, yeah, really trying to know where our food comes from. Yeah. And like, so we got, you know, 50 gallons of strawberries and preserved them. We got 25 gallons of blueberries and preserved them. We got 2 bushels of peaches and preserved them.

Not just— we're getting 4 gallons of milk every day and we're making making sure we make butter instead of just feeding the extra to the pig, you know.

I've got— I'm gonna stay on the tomatoes, you know, canned the broth.

I want to get the beef broth all done, you know, now and not put it off. Or, you know, I have bones in my freezer that are 2 years old. I don't need to do that again. I just need to get in a rhythm. It's exhausting because it's a little nightmarish for 2 people.

It's supposed to be a community that's doing it, and we're all doing it in this weird way of like individuals doing it. So yeah, I'm not surprised you're tired.

That helps a little bit because I just found a guy who is raising the beef all right. Not all right, like okay.

Probably better than I am.

Like the way we do.

He's moving them every day. He's giving them the minerals. He gives them some garlic salt and they don't have any flies. He sent me a video. There's no flies on these cows. There are no flies.

I swear. Trick.

I got to figure out what he's doing.

I know what he's doing, and we can—

but it's like, if I'm on this nook and cranny farm then, and, and then we're feeling this burnout, why not collaborate with the community?

Yeah.

And we want to eat more beef, but we only have the 12 acres or whatever. Buy some beef from that guy. It's okay.

Stripped out the strawberries. We had planted strawberries last year, and then we got barely any this year. And, um, we're like, no, we're not, we're not waiting a second year to see if we get something. We're done. Like, we're just gonna go into the community and buy the organic strawberries from them, you know?

So is that the trick? It's not to just, oh, Grant and Barrett, we're gonna do this as a family. Well, let's reach out into the community when we can.

I mean, you know, growing up, like, my, my babka, my Slovak grandmother, had like, you know, 7, 9 children. And, you know, the farm ladies would all come together for the church suppers and they'd all come together and preserve things in huge quantities, right? It wasn't like you and maybe your daughter or you and one friend doing these things, right? And so I try and remember that just to give myself grace when it's this time of year and I'm exhausted. Like before coming here, I think I told you guys, like, you know, I'm up like dawn till dusk trying to preserve all the peas peaches and trying to preserve all the plums and getting, you know, making sure everything is gone. And I— there was like a point where I was just thinking, what would actually happen if I didn't have the 30 jars of peaches I need to go into winter? Like, really, what would— like, what would the calamity be, right? Well, you'd have to eat more meat and cheese, or the 10,000 pounds of the other fruit that I have preserved. Like, so I don't know. I think we're always adjusting too and trying to see what can give because there's people around us that are doing this well. I think for a long time we were in the mindset of the systems are gonna collapse, and I still think the systems are gonna collapse. Personally, I think they will. But this idea that that we had to have, like what we were talking about, we had to have a bull or a male in every mix of animals because what happens when everything collapses and we can't breed anymore? So all these different sort of ways that we were approaching things that we've been slowly modifying over time. And it is relieving because we're still able to produce all of our own food, but slowly we're like, looking at everything and reconsidering it. Like, do we have to do things that way? And what is the cost of doing things that way? Where can we make refinements? Where can we do less so we have more pleasure, so we don't like get burnt out? Because I mean, I just don't think it's natural what we're doing. We're all living in silos trying to get this stuff done and Personally, I don't want to live on a commune doing it either. I love like having that, you know, in the '50s everybody—

I think everybody lived on today's dollars, $40,000 or something. But, and the reason they were happier is because everybody was that. And so now I'm looking at it, I don't know if it's so much that there— well, it's got to be some that there's not the community support. I can't just rant a bull, right? Like I could have when my dad was growing up here. Everybody, everybody had a milk cow.

Yeah.

And then the bull— the, the one person out of five had to have a bull. There's none of that. There's no— the nearest bull is 2.5 hours away. I had a guy offer, you know, by the time you pay the travel and have the bull hill rental, it's not worth it. Where was I going with that?

But everybody was in the '50s—

oh yeah, yeah, so, so So part of the struggle is everybody else is living normally and we're just bats. Yeah, because this is hard. Yeah, that's why I have to keep telling myself— it's the— what I'm telling myself lately: pick your heart. I mean, if, if I'm not doing this and saving money by growing our own food with my family, I'm working alone more in the office.

And to be honest, like, where we are I think things are different here, just like we were talking about. Your population is so much different. But where we are, if we don't do it, we don't get it. We don't have it. We don't have— I can't go get raw milk from anybody. I just can't.

You know, we can have Whole Foods delivered. Whole Foods can be—

Yeah, but it's not raw milk.

No, I know. And that's where we've gotten to. I was training a farm sitter once. We are 4 hours into this training and I'm going— I have this paper out and I'm like, geez. And I had to ask him. I said, this is the farm sitter I'm asking. I said, is it worth it? And he said, you have no choice. Yeah, you cannot buy organic Boston butt. You sure as hell can't buy Boston pork chops organic or organic pork rinds, right?

Right.

So if I'm wanting Boston, but you know, some reason we can only find organic bacon.

It's so weird. What happens to all the other bacon or all the other meat on the pig?

Because there's only 10 pounds. Raw milk here either. And if you could, it's, it's $25 a gallon in Asheville.

Right.

Well, I don't know. I think they're buying it. I feel like I've heard some of my friends have talked about buying it from another farm, but then like, you know, it's getting grains and it's getting that, and we don't know how it's raised. And, and I'm like, and, well, this is it too, we're pretty particular about our milk, you know, because that can be contaminated pretty easily. So I don't know, I, I like, before I bought raw milk, when we were buying raw milk, we went to the farm and watched them milk because we wanted to know, yeah, is this safe to feed my children?

Yeah, well, you know when Troy was still in the military and we got posted every couple of years, right? So we'd have to find a new raw milk farmer. And it was so covert. Like you had to know a farmer, go to the farmer. They would call to the next province we'd be moving to. I have this gal, you know, it was like so challenging 'cause there was no internet then either, right? And even today you can't go on the internet and be like raw milk in Canada. It would be like, you know, there's none of that because yeah. So we used to, And I remember going to farms and going up. I remember this one farm in particular and they had a raw milk share. And I remember driving up and they had recycle bins out by the road and they were overflowing with Diet Coke bottles. And I thought, "Oh, this isn't a great start to the situation." And I go up and she comes out and she's got a cigarette hanging out from her mouth. And she brings me into the barn and do you know what you were saying about Greg Judy saying that's not muck, it's manure? Yeah. Like these Holsteins with poop right up to their knee joints. And her saying, yeah, you know, and this is the grain we feed them. And it was just all conventional. And I was like, you know, some milk shouldn't be raw.

No, 100%. I agree. Oh, boil that milk.

Yeah. I was like, "All right, thank you very much." Well, you know, and so, but that's, it was so rare that I could understand why people would still buy it from her because, you know.

'Cause it's hard to get.

It's hard to get. So yeah, that's a whole other layer on trying to source the food that you want in your body.

You dry your cows off for the winter.

Yeah, we do.

So when do you dry them off? What month?

Like in the fall. Like they'll still nurse their calf that they had in the spring until, until, you know, probably January. And then it's so cold and we don't feed them grain that you'll see their condition will drop if you don't take the calf off and let them dry up. So, okay, we could—

I, I mean, stop milking them in the, at the end of the fall.

Yeah, yeah.

So is it sad to not have milk?

No, it's a— no, because we do, we freeze it.

Okay, so you freeze your milk?

Yeah. Okay.

And then when do they—

we freeze the milk, milk, we make butter with the cream, cream. So the butter is all in the freezer, and then the milk that has most of the fat— there's a little bit, you know, for digestion— is frozen. Yeah. And it tastes just like normal milk.

So you'll take milk and you'll skim— you'll, you'll ladle some cream off and still drink that milk?

Yeah.

Yeah, because it's not pure skim milk.

Yeah. No, no, see, no, we're not putting it through a separator.

This is one example of us just not knowing the nuances. We had— we wouldn't do that. We just thought that was skim milk. I know, I was like, and Ruth Ann told us otherwise, and now we're in this bounty. We're making butter now.

Nice. Weston A.

Price though is hardcore about it.

Yes, but it doesn't make sense. I know, don't tell them I said that, but it doesn't make sense if you are like a smallholder and you have a cow and you want butter and you— this idea like To me, that idea is formulated around a grocery store, right? Because I can go get cheese, I can go get cream, I can go get whole milk. That doesn't happen from a cow.

Well, it's like people just eating ribeyes, right? Their whole life. And like, where's all the ground?

Exactly.

And the ribs and this, you know, all the things, the roasts that come with a beef cow. You know, I think that's, you know, hold on one second. He's smelting now.

He needs a snack.

Give him some yogurt.

Is that Henry?

It's Henry. He's melting down. I think that when we started, you know, harvesting our own animals, I realized all these things like, oh yeah, you know, because every— you saw a long time ago when I cooked from the grocery store. Yeah, you need skinless boneless chicken. Yeah, you need this, you know, you need this meat, you need this, and you just go to the meat counter and you get what you need from the grocery store and then you come home and you just make those recipes. But you know, then we did just start parting our chickens. So that's nice because we can choose the cut a little easier. We keep some, we have some whole from before, but we, you know, used to dip them in the hot water with the plastic bags so bad. And then like a couple years ago, I was like, you know, more turned on to like, that's not really great for you. But it took us a couple years to change. And then this year we did, um, we parted them and put them in plastic bags, but we vacuum sealed them. So it's a little, it's a little better, you know, nothing's hot at least in the plastic.

Yeah.

Um, but yeah, like, well, it's, it's always a battle. It's exhausting.

It is. And that's it too. I think that's it too. It keeps it exciting, but it's also, you know, because like how many years did we dip the chickens in the plastic bags because it was just easy and that's just what you did.

And you live and you learn, right?

Like, yeah. So I mean, I did probably 10 years trying to figure out how to freeze chicken without, without, um, plastic. And I just came to really expensive conclusions and I was like, we're not doing that.

But we, we wrap ours.

Yeah, I know. I mean, that might be the next Next solution.

She found some wrap.

I did, I got some.

What is this?

It's uncoated, unbleached, and unwaxed.

It might not be freezer paper. I'll look at it.

No, it is. I will. It was freezer paper.

But sometimes they call it freezer paper. But I'll return it. The way the wrapping used to be coated in wax. Yeah. And all of it's now coated in plastic. But there's actually two benefits to using paper over plastic.

Okay, tell us.

Aside from that. So one of them is that, and there's actually studies on this that you can go look up if you really wanna nerd out on it, but the difference in the nutrition of the meat is far superior when it has an opaque covering on it because—

It can breathe?

No, it doesn't breathe. Okay. It actually, it stops the degradation of the proteins and the fats from light. So—

Oh, so the plastic is letting in light.

It's letting in light. Even if it's dark in the freezer, it's still letting in the light. So it actually breaks down the meat a lot quicker. So that's number one is the, it's actually a more nutritious product in the end. It actually lasts longer. Like I can wrap a rabbit 'cause we don't eat that much chicken and it'll last 2 years, no problem, no freezer burn. Yeah. And then, I'm gonna get you to import me some of your paper. Oh, look at your—

maybe you got that. Now somebody in the reviews wrapped their meat. They wrapped their meat for the freezer in it.

Like, that's all we did.

It was great.

We don't use it. We use all paper.

I'm hoping that— how would you do, like, is, um, like, I feel like our chicken is— I guess because we put it in a, you know, a water bath to cool it. So then do you just let it dry really well, or do you dry it to get it into the paper, like, get wet? Does that make—

good question.

What—

our chicken's always a little wet when we're wrapping it.

Why do you have to put it more— why don't you air cool it?

Pull it off?

Because we don't have anything to air cool it with.

Yeah, cooler though, don't you? Walking cooler?

Not yet. We had one. We did have one in our old house.

Where did you hang the beef?

Um, we took it to a—

but you have to wrap that up too. After you've eviscerated and butchered it?

Yeah, yeah. So I'll use rabbit 'cause it's the same thing. It's the same thing. But even when we do our ducks and turkeys and geese, so, you know, do all the cleaning and stuff, rinse it off, and then we hang it in the walk-in cooler and it air chills instead of water chills.

Which we're gonna get a, we're gonna, it's all a process. The container still has the furniture from the cabin in it. And once we put that into the cabin, we're gonna put it behind the butchering shed and make a 10 by 10 walk-in cooler.

Yeah, because we still have all this game changer. Yeah, we had it.

We were definitely spoiled with that walk-in cooler.

That's what you talked about in, um, in the book. You do one project a year, and maybe that's what I'm getting at. Yeah, we're embracing suffering, which is okay. It's okay to do hard things and to hurt to do the right thing. If we want raw, you know, for our kids, it's gonna be a sacrifice. Right. But then when does it become, um, um, a burden? Like, uh, not slowing down.

Yeah.

Like if we do all these things right, suddenly we're, we're not the slow-down farmstead anymore. We're back to the rat race and the pickup rat race.

The rat race farmstead.

I think the one thing I would say on that is like, uh, absolutely with any, uh, homestead, it's, it's a fast tempo. But I think the slow for us also comes in the fact is that we work hard, but we also craft in slow moments. And I think that's one thing that Tara and I have really made certain that we adhere to during these busier parts of the year is just like, uh, in the morning, for example, like, uh, we'll set a time. Okay, we're gonna get together at 10 o'clock. Okay, 10 o'clock, we go We go in, we sit down, uh, whatever it is, but just kind of crafting in that moment to slow down.

Okay.

Because it's almost like you're earning that moment that becomes more precious, more enjoyable. It's very sweet. I think otherwise the kids—

this is what I'm like, I'm like, I love that, but I'm thinking we go in at 10 AM and then the kids are like—

no, we do it after dinner. The kids are not allowed to go on the walk.

Yes, we go on our walk alone.

Yeah. And then we take the Sabbath, we don't do anything. Anything but projects on Saturday.

Yeah, we do not—

no, not projects. We call it a zero day. Yeah, we just get the chores done. Yeah.

And just—

and really do nothing and really read books, watch TV.

On Saturday, our neighbor does the chores for his learning.

Yeah, because he takes Sunday.

He wants to learn more how to do it. And so— and they love milk, so their milk, you know, Justin helps them because there's a lot of he wants, you know, that he can't— he's not going to know what to do. So Justin goes and then they get all the milk and eggs and they're happy that they're getting that. And then we get a complete day off, which is nice. The kids at least do.

Justin, you're saying as long as you don't cut into these times, these designated times, just get as much work as you can to get get, do the most important things.

Yeah, we went, we, oh, sorry.

You're never gonna do it all.

We shifted from this idea, this was quite a few years ago, I guess. We used to just sort of go out and fill our day with all the tasks that had to be done. And we stopped doing that. And we shifted to what are the tasks that we wanna do today that, you know, and you prioritize whatever. And then outside of those tasks, asks are the pleasure chunks that we build in. Like in the afternoon, like what you were saying about, you know, the kids following you, there's nothing stopping you from like pouring a nice cup of kombucha or whatever you do and saying to the kids, "Mommy and daddy are going to sit down." And even if you have to go hide behind a tree and sit on the grass together for 20 minutes and take off your shoes and just cool down or whatever together. It's prioritizing that. Like that is what we're gonna do. That's part of the way we operate. And that's that.

Yeah, well Saturday's our day off. So Sunday's always hard. It's our Monday, you know? It's hard to get back into it. And we've gotten to where, okay, Sunday afternoon we have an iced coffee.

We'll have some sort of family.

And it's just you and I. Yeah.

Yeah.

Or do we involve the children?

Well, they're all—

They have an early start too.

They're always having fun snacks.

'Cause Lily is their little— more carbs than we are.

Little baker.

We're seeing them eating all this stuff. And yeah, you can sit there and watch me drink an iced coffee once a week.

Yeah.

Because they're always like— Lily did, she yesterday took it upon her. So she's wanting to make popsicles, which we're like, that's fine. It's good, nutritious.

It's from the strawberry farm.

The strawberry farm. She's mixing it with yogurt, making a little bit of a— Oh, they were delicious.

Yeah.

I was like, no. I'm not really a popsicle guy. And then I saw them, I'm like, ooh, those are creamy.

Really icy.

So then he's like, let me get it. Let me get a bite. So then I gave him a bite of mine. He's like, yeah, I need one.

But we all took a little break under that shed.

Yeah, it was so fun. We planted our fall crops yesterday and, um, and we sat, they all showed up. It was fun. It was actually fun. Like when they're not bickering with each other, it's a lot of fun.

Yeah.

You, you know, it's kind of rare.

Yeah. Yeah. Aware.

It's the reality of it.

It's kind of normal that teens and middle school age kind of kids—

oh yeah, bigger a lot. Oh yeah.

And like, and well, there's siblings too. You cannot take away this. But yeah, they've got Lily in the kitchen and they'll be like, hey Lily, do this. Hey Lily, make that.

Lily, she'll do it. She loves it.

She does.

She might be a little begrudging, but she, she, she loves it.

For the most part, she does it because she wants to eat it too.

Yeah, exactly.

She'll do anything for them. Have you noticed that?

She will. I mean, it's fun watching them with their building the relationship.

Yeah.

You know, it's been fun. Like, Jonah's, you know, light years ahead of Lily. Like, he came in and said something to her, asking her about something she was doing, and she, like, didn't really answer it right. And Justin leaned over and said, just keep trying. She'll get it. You know, like, she didn't really— they didn't have the conversation.

Yeah, that was the first time I've seen that. I could not believe that he asked her. How was the horse show?

I was like, that's really neat.

Wow.

Is this the moment they grow up?

Yeah.

Are y'all's daughters friends? Oh, best friends. Yeah.

Are they best friends?

So you're—

what, do they call each other every day?

Every day.

I think they do text.

Yeah. No, they talk on the phone every day. Wow.

And what is 31?

28.

28.

So Ella's 28. She, she's an acupuncturist and then she has her own skincare business.

Yeah.

Yeah. It's very handy.

Very handy.

Did she do it on you guys?

Yeah.

Oh, that's amazing.

She's wonderful. And so they're very close, which is really, really nice to see.

How did that happen? How did you facilitate that?

What part?

Their relationship in adulthood?

Mm. You know, I don't know if, like, I think we kind of had a no-BS family. Like, we talked about everything and we ate meals together every day, and we were like, this is our family. Like, we do things as a family. And so they used to like fight and stuff, and we would— we'd let them sort it out.

Like, unless, you know, that's doing it right.

Fire or weapons.

Unless it's saving the life, right? You're taking the child with you.

We are like, uh, you know, if they would come up to us and be like, I'd be like, figure it out.

Yeah.

You know, I'm just not— I don't have the capacity to solve everyone's problems. And they did for the most part. Um, it just worked out. And, and I guess that develops their relationship, right? Because they, they have figured each other out. They know. And when they get mad at each other, it's great. I see them now, they just say it.

Like, they'll be like, it's very real. It's over.

Yeah, because if nowadays you, you start developing a friendship with somebody, you're gonna have a conflict. You have to either make a decision. If something they've done is bothering you, you've got to either say, I'm going to move on with my life, or I'm going to confront them, and it's either going to strengthen the friendship or destroy it. And I better just go ahead and get that over with now.

So true.

Um, oh, I had a film guy— it's not one of the ones that went you. He— they go to their fam— their parents every Sunday and have lunch with all the siblings. They all get along.

They're all adults.

I'm thinking, that's wonderful. Yeah. Well, what was their secret? It was much like what y'all said. Her— their mom, he said this. He said, I don't know, but maybe this was it. When we would get in a fight, she would say, go under the table and work it out. So they had to get under the kitchen table and work it out. And I guess she couldn't have supervision fish, but not be the judge. Yeah.

Oh, cool.

I like to tell the boys to take it outside.

That's what I do. I'm like, get out of here.

They come to her for everything, telling her for everything, because she gets excited, comes down, and I'm just real calm about it. I think they want a reaction. Yeah, they want the wrath on the other person.

They, they do it because I take action and they're like, just—

Papa doesn't do anything really exciting.

Well, no, a lot of times I'm like I'm like, just leave me alone. I don't want to hear this. But then I'm like, is that right? I don't know.

Kids are too big to get under the table now, so maybe it's taking out towels.

We should maybe make them get under the table. It might be good for them.

Yeah, that's good, right?

Yeah. Work it out. Absolutely.

Parents always coming in and making a judgment and deciding what happens when the parent's gone.

A lot of times it's because it's a project that they're working together on the farm. And that's why I think they come to us is because like something's not going to get done that's important to get done.

Well, it's stuff like he sat there while I was finishing milking and, you know, he was supposed to go start picking up the fence and he didn't pick up the fence.

And I didn't— he told me I didn't get enough milk as he did. And I'm just like, I tell him, just get out of here. I'm like, I don't want to hear this. I'll say, where's your father?

That's what I would say.

Where's your father? Go tell him about this. Well, because my concern is the animals. Like, we have to make sure that the animals are done properly. Yeah, things are done because they're living beings. And also it is our milk and we need to make sure they're healthy. Like, there's like so much—

core of our farm.

There's so many, so many of those things that we're like— that's why I get upset is I'm like, well, did we milk the cow all the way out? Like, did things get done right?

They're the milking. Yeah.

That was a big thing with us too, is like the animals are dependent on us for their lives and for how well they are. And if like you skimped on the rabbits because you didn't feel like collecting all the forages, like there was a consequence to that. You know, you have to because that's the deal. Like we get this great nutrition and everything, but you have to, you have a part in that bargain and being part of this family. Me, you rely on that food too. So that's your part of the bargain.

So, well, like, you guys like to eat, right?

Yeah.

Well, let me tell you this, you and I have Lyme in common. Yeah, Lyme disease.

Well, you guys were talking about suffering, not who you are, right?

I don't identify as Lyme.

I pull— I dislocated my shoulder. It was a bad dislocation, uh, afternoon Of course I rested that evening. Then the next day I was pretty worthless. I don't think I did anything.

Orthopedic doctor.

Yeah, I had a doctor's appointment. But then that Tuesday we had already made the appointment with the guy down the street 2 miles away who's giving away his blueberry bushes.

Oh wow.

So day and a half after dislocating my shoulder, I'm like this, I'm driving the tractor down there and we're getting these blueberry bushes. And what I'm saying is, even before that, when the kids are young, I've, I've broken my arm. I've been— I've milked 2 cows with one hand.

Mhm.

With Lyme, you just want to quit. You just want to take a nap. You just want to be done. But probably the best thing for us is keep moving.

Absolutely. Yeah.

Even if it hurts.

Yeah.

Yeah.

It's— and it's— there's a big lesson in that too, is like you sort of realize what your capacity is so much greater than you thought it was beforehand. Like, I remember I was really sick with Lyme on that first farm that we talked about initially where we were just so overwhelmed. And I remember some days days, like getting up and going out to do chores. And literally walking from the house to the barn was just— I remember crying just walking because everything was so sore. And I was thinking, I don't— how am I going to pick up a water pail? Like, I was so bone exhausted. But, um, you know, and I've had people say to me that, because a lot of people will ask me about having Lyme because they have Lyme, and they'll say, I can't get out of bed, I don't know how you do that. And I'm like, that's exactly it.

Yeah, that's why I had an animal.

Yeah, I had to. There was no option.

I had to have water that day.

Yeah, exactly.

And there's a real gift in that.

Yeah.

And it drives you nuts, right? It's tiring, you burn out.

Yeah.

But let's look at what you'd really want. Okay, what do I really— really, I'm gonna sleep in, I'm gonna then do a little workout, and then I'm gonna get some office work and then watch some TV and watch a documentary in the afternoon or whatever, then I'm just gonna get soft and I might have other problems.

100%.

Yeah, yeah.

I can't imagine him doing—

probably gonna be lack of purpose in my life and be even more depressed.

Let's just say that's not going to be Justin. He's gonna be mountain biking. He's gonna fill it with something. He cannot stop Saturday drive him nuts because he can't stop. And I'm like, man, I'm resting today.

I'll see you later.

I'm going to lay in bed. He's just like, how do you stop? I'm like, I just do.

Yeah, I'm just stopping.

He can't stop him. Him acting like he's going to do that. Watch a documentary in the afternoon.

I did enjoy that when I had reactive arthritis.

You know, he had Campylobacter, which gave him reactive arthritis. Um, one of the lucky few that get it, and it was rough, but it had—

I had to keep moving. I mean, I, I would ride in the side— I'd have the kids pull the side-by-side up to the car, and I'd get Grandma's walker, and I'd walk out to the—

gave him her walker. It was crazy.

To the side-by-side, and at least I'd go out there and supervise. Yeah, but I think it was good to keep moving, as terrible as it was. Did you mean this to be a would you say this is a memoir?

I hope not.

Okay, would you say— yeah, I feel like— and you tell me if it's true— well, it's, it's— I really enjoyed this book. That's what I was getting at earlier. This is so real, you guys. You're so real and vulnerable and open, and that's what's so good. Um, people have told me— I talked about it a little bit in the vlog this morning— people will tell me they really like our show. I didn't understand it for a while, and finally I said, well, why? And they said, because you show all the— you showing the mistakes. I'm thinking, this is inspiring you? And they just get a— well, they then, they don't feel so bad about themselves. Yeah, I could go out there and make a really cute little Instagram post on how well those sheep mowed that bank. Yeah, you saw how well they mowed it. But what you guys didn't see was me chasing them, herding them back in, because they got out this morning. I could have— I didn't have to talk about that in the blog. I could have just said, oh yeah, look, mowed this bank.

Yeah, so wonderful.

Uh, but so you do that in this book, in a net. Um, yeah, you lean into, you know, being connected connected in the farm, seeing death on the farm, like birth and farm and seasons, and, uh, just being really connected. And then you go into the— tell me this, I get to ask this because you're right here and I got this book— the frogs chapter. What was the point of what? And I'll tell you what I took out of it. You tell me, is this there? Is this her poem, by the way?

Motherhood one, yeah.

Yeah, people have to get the book to get the poem.

You're gonna have to get the book.

Just the whole frogs chapter. It's such a good book where, um, thousands of frogs are out at night and you're having to run them over, and it's just epidemic of frogs. It's epidemic, right?

That's not the right one.

Um, plague.

Plague. Let's just say a plague. No, pandemic was what we went through.

What do you want people to get out of the frogs chapter?

Well, I don't know. I guess the frogs, like in the stories, the two stories that I sort of juxtaposed against each other was like just the connection that nature can have for us, that there's just like this honesty in nature that encourages me. And I'm able to like sort of tap into those things if I'm just there in that moment, I guess. And so there was like in the story, you know, the one story where my daughter and I were driving home and there's literally, I mean, tens of thousands, maybe hundreds of thousands frogs all over the road. And it was like something I had never seen before. And just having that moment with her, and then, you know, a couple years later driving home from a grief group and the frogs are on the road again. And just remembering being on the road with her and how it was like one of the most— yeah, gutting moments of my life, being driving an hour home on these country roads and all the frogs were back again. And this time it wasn't her laughing in my ear and screaming, "Mom, turn left, turn right!" You know, it was just me alone. And then, you know, walking the walk of ducks and there's little frogs hopping in front of my feet and the little frog at her headstone. And it's just like these little threads threads that get woven through our lives, and each one of them can have like so much pain, but almost so much love in it as well. And they can mean many different things. I think there was a time when I thought you're happy or you're sad, it's dark or it's light, you know, it's good or it's bad. And I realize it's just such a, such a lie. It can actually be dark and light at the same time. It can actually— we can in pain and still appreciate like love and all these things are intermingled and that's sort of more true than anything else. I'm sure even in our happiest moments, if I stopped you and said, what would make you sad right now? You could feel sadness. You know, we all carry these things within us. And I like what you said, Justin, about like people saying that they like that you show things that are real. And I think that in this time of the world, we need more people showing what's real. It's so unfair for young people to see like social media and for it to be like beautiful, perfect people with filters and everything's happy for them and their life is good. I think that's cruel. I think it's cruel to show that as a model. I think what's incredible is to show ourselves and say, look, I've had these really devastating things happen to me. I have a lot of love in my life and I think life is beautiful and it has meaning. And it's not because I chase all the shiny stuff. It's because I allowed all the real stuff to come in. I think we need more models like that. And that requires more humility and less ego. Like you asked if the book was about, was a memoir, and I don't want the book to be about me. I just feel like I'm a conduit from bigger stories. I just witness things and write them down. There's nothing like special about me, and I don't ever want to feel that way about myself. I just— I— and so I hope that that's— it's like just an offering of stuff that brought me peace and meaning in my life, and maybe like a couple crumbs will find their way to someone else and they'll feel the same way.

Yeah, no, it's certainly not that. Certainly Probably not. Oh, look at me. It's more like a— well, Dances with Wolves. Y'all seen that movie?

Oh, that's one of the greatest. Yeah, that's a good movie.

And it's a— notice something about it though, it's very different from other movies because it's a journey plot. You don't know what the hero wants in the beginning of the story. You're just going along with the hero, right? And I— you cut, you know, you just follow.

You see the difference at the end?

Whereas Lord of the Rings, they want to go destroy The Ring, right? That's, you know, and that's a different kind of plot. That's most of the story plots. But so I think you do a good job doing a journey plot type of thing. Don't know necessarily where it's going. And then it's like, oh wow, we're going deep. So it's good and it's going to help a lot of people.

When did you start writing? Have you always been a writer?

Um, I started writing in grade 6 with Sister Kelly at my Catholic school. She got us to write journals and started that, and we would hand them in and she would write in the bottom of them. And I was so hungry for her attention because I loved her so much. And she would write, oh my, Tara, this is so creative. And I still have that journal.

Really?

I still I tried to look into it a few years ago, and someone said she had left the order, the sisterhood order, whatever, and, and they didn't know where she was. I think about her all the time. I want someone to connect me with her, but yeah, I don't know. What's her name?

Sister what?

Sister Kelly.

Okay, we know any rogue Catholic nuns?

From where? From where? Where was that?

Winnipeg, Manitoba. Yeah.

Okay. You never know. It's a small world.

Christ the King School. Yeah.

Christ the King.

Yeah. Wow.

Yeah. I find that we document with a lot of video. Us capturing us, it made it even more special to me. I know for some people it's a distraction, but when we— we were supposed to be done with the vlog that day at 9:45. She didn't get the memo, so she kept filming because I handed it off to my editor before he left. Left, and now I have to do a Dropbox upload. But anyway, she kept filming, and we had that ice cream moment. Oh yeah, got it on tape.

Yeah.

Oh, so now we have that.

Nice of us all just sitting around and like— and the thing is, is that we keep— we have all the raw footage, right? Or we still— maybe we stopped keeping all the raw footage.

Yeah, yeah, it's on a T-drive.

And I'm like, when my kids get married, they're gonna have the most epic Yeah, I know, we're pulling it all out.

So you capture though, and I encourage people to capture and document. It doesn't have to be a YouTube vlog. Yeah, it can be journaling. Yeah, like, and, and like what you're doing. There's something about sharing it with others that completes your joy or your grief.

Because it brings meaning, right? Like if there's meaning in something I share for you, even if it's something I didn't even think of, that's like a connector and it's our humanity. And I think we need more of that, you know, in the world. I think we need to be connected to each other and offer to each other, like, you know, this happened and it really crushed me, but I'm still here. And like, stories are so powerful, however they come, like whatever our creative force is to be able to share those stories with one another. I mean, it's really, that's the meaning of life. It's what builds relationships and holds us together and helps us to grow and learn from each other. I think that those things are integral. I was the other day, we were with our granddaughter and he was sitting down reading her a book and I was sitting across the room and I was just recording them quietly. He didn't know. And it was just such an innocent moment innocent, tender moment. And I watched it later with him, and it was just crying because it was just so— oh, because you're fully there, you know. When we can be fully in the moment of our lives, like, that's it. That's like the thing everyone's looking for. And it doesn't matter where it is. And I guess that's why I called the book like Radiance of the Ordinary, because it's just those ordinary little things to be able to like just give yourself over that few moments, you know, when our granddaughter reaches up and touches your cheek and looks at you and says, "I love you," you know, or just is like running and laughing or whatever, just being with your spouse and sharing like a full body embrace before you take on the day or whatever and being fully, fully, fully present in that moment, I think. I think is what everybody's looking for in all these weird places, but it's available to us all, all the time if we want, if we are willing to be opened up to it.

Yeah. So in a world with Instagram perfect and AI chatbots with instant information, this is going to stand out because, you know, one thing that's really good about this, I always really like I like it when in a film I can make somebody cry and laugh in the same film. And you've done that with this book. It's an easy read. Um, it's real. You're going to learn stuff for your homestead. Uh, one thing I learned, this is maybe not homestead, this is more home ec, but you better, you better warm the coffee mug with water.

Oh, you better.

I've been doing that ever since.

Have you?

It does tell everybody about it.

That's so cool.

Because what is the word? Indignity?

Yeah, the indignity of it.

Dignity.

No, there's some farm tips in here, you know, it's half that. And then you share with—

there's a whole chapter about the cow, about the milking of the cow.

Your adventures with the cow. First time killing animals and going into that, that conflict, because you're not— you weren't an animal killer and now you are.

Yeah.

And just struggling and going through that. I've got a lot of— one thing, what did I say in my review?

It's not in this.

It's in the other. They sent me the hard copy with my review. But one thing I said, because I got to write the blurb for this, that was fun. Well, one thing it says, I don't think this one made it, but you took us to hell and back. And that was neat. That was a really neat experience to get to do that with you. You and, you know, you laugh, you cry. What did you like? Because I underlined things. Yeah, I said this to you. I don't think I said this in the blurb, but my dad died. I went to his library as the first thing I did. I wanted something to be underlined so badly and nothing was. I mean, there was one little thing and it was just a little political joke or something. But my kids can come to this now.

Yeah.

When I'm gone, and they can say he was there in a, in a bigger, more expansive way and among us, rather than encapsulated in the body that remained. Let me give this some context. There beside Richard's body, I had the sense he was there too, beyond the physical body. The, the body was no longer living, but still the essence of him moved through and around us. And this is what I underlined: he was there in a bigger, more expansive way, and among us rather than encapsulating in the body that remained. So, you know, that touched me and that spoke to my soul. And now my kids can say, well, that meant something to Pop.

Yeah, I like that.

I think for me, I think it just gave me a deeper understanding of where you come from. And like, in consuming other things that you do, like Substack or um, your Instagram posts, you know what I mean? Like, it just gives like more depth. And, um, like the whole thing with, you know, Richard and like how you found him. And like, also it was just so amazing, I think, too. Like, when was that? Like in the '90s or early 2000s, you know? Like that you were going through that. Yeah, it was such a time. Yeah, you know, like you were saying, like trying to find a farmer and like somebody who would take you under their wing and, and allow you to experience— you know, it's amazing that, um, that you got to experience that, you know.

Yeah, he really changed my life, Richard. I was really— and we met him because we were looking for good food. Troy got posted to a base and yeah, we ended up going to a farmer looking for good food. And yeah, um, he was just— he was a poet, a cowboy poet, you know, just such a—

like, I can like see him in my mind with that truck.

Yeah, do you know what I mean?

It was just—

yeah, he was wonderful.

Well, that's good, good writing. It's artsy writing, but it's still down to earth. A lot of art, artistic and creative people, very disconnected connected, but you're very connected, so we appreciate that.

Thank you.

I'm actually going to— well, people can follow you at, uh, Slow Down Farmstead on Instagram. What's your Substack?

Same, slowdownfarmstead.com.

Yeah, and that they can— how often do you post there?

Once a week. And then there's a chat too that I dip into.

You're pretty active in it?

Okay, a few times a week. But it's a great chat because there's like a lot of— I find there's a lot of moms on there, young moms, older moms. There's some men on there too. And they— we all kind of have this holistic bent, so, you know, yeah, I'll be looking for where do you get good wool or good candles or whatever.

And yeah, I'm going to— you also took part in a— we did a documentary on your story. It was 2021 or something, wasn't it?

No. Wow.

No, it 2022.

Well, you talked about me.

Yeah, you talked about me. And that was one of the first times you ever talked about me publicly, I think.

Yes, it was. Yeah.

So we really appreciate you for that.

Well, we appreciate that you did. It was beautifully done. I'm just amazed at the quality of the work that you guys put in. The passion is so clear in what you do, and like, it's on a whole other level, I think. I don't think there's anyone doing what you guys are doing on that level of—

yeah, I feel like our niche has to be— because we can't compete with Netflix or Angel Studios, so our niche is going to be able to— nobody— Netflix isn't going to make a documentary on you guys. Not, not insulting you anyway, but that's where we have to niche. We now— we have a documentary on you guys and Ruth Ann Zimmerman and, uh, the Sheards, uh, and all these people, because a lot of the audience wants to go and watch that kind of stuff with their family.

For sure.

Yeah, yeah, it's really nice that that's there for families too because there's really— that's a real void. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

And we were talking earlier, it's there because, well, YouTube won't let you post butcherings, right? Or, uh, you know, so that's real and that needs to be— that's an important part. But you need Really? Yes. Thank you. Thank you.

The meat is on the stove. I hope it's—

the meat, you don't have to—

it had gotten turned off.

Hopefully it didn't get turned off, but you can make any sides you want. Thank you. Yeah, and so what I'm going to do, if, if anybody gets the— let's see, let's do this through maybe September 15th or something. Well, when's, when's the official—

the September 2nd.

September 2nd.

Yeah, but apparently you are allowed to sell them before.

Okay, because this will go up. Hey, Matt, can you get this out this weekend?

Well, September 2nd is like what, Tuesday? It's a really good weekend.

We'll get this out this weekend. So let's do, and then September through September 9th-ish. I'm going to, we could do on through, yeah, 9th-ish. Let's do, if they get this book through us, we'll put a we'll put it down in the YouTube shopping and then we'll do a link. We're going to let them watch Divergence. So anybody that buys this through us, they automatically get emailed your Divergence episode.

That's awesome. And the one they would get is a hardcover because that's just—

Yeah, this is softcover. It's really nice. You send us a hardcover and it's got my blurb on it.

Yeah, I'm so grateful for your blurb.

I gave them a couple and I didn't use AI to write Tried it.

Nice.

He did. He gave her several options to choose from.

Yeah, nice.

Yep. All right, anything else you want to add?

No, just thank you for having us here on your beautiful farm and beautiful family. And it's just, uh, it's very invigorating and, and, um, warming to be around you guys. So we're grateful for Everything that you've done and you do and that you're putting out into the world, we need more like you.

So yeah, I would totally agree with that. And just thank you so much for sharing a meal with us last night.

Oh, you're welcome.

Afternoon and letting us get to spend some time with your kids. You have an incredible family and what you're doing here is just so noble and inspiring. And just thank you for being a part of our constellation. Constellation. Yeah. With Divergence and now having us here. So, so we're very very grateful. And yeah, so nice to have this connection. I'm looking forward to doing it again.

So heck yeah.

Well, having y'all encourages us, you know. You talk about burnout, but it's good to get people coming through and remind you why you do this and know that we're not crazy.

Yeah.

And other people are doing it, other people are struggling, for sure, and whatnot.

So thank you, thank you, thank you guys so much.