Building People-First Technology, Learning to Code, & Persevering through Failures, w/ Herb Coakley

Herb, welcome to the show, man.

Thanks for having me.

Yeah, I appreciate you taking the time. And, uh, with Curio, there is always a lot I want to talk about with every company. With this company, because you've had a previous one in the space and your, your experience in this gig space is, is really interesting, intriguing. And, uh, props to Harry for introducing us. And I'm curious though, for people who aren't familiar, what is Curio doing today?

So Curio is a last-mile courier and errand service for everything. And we're particularly focused on empowering frontline communities and gig workers. And we built it with a people-first approach to technology. So, we're making it easier for them to afford electrified vehicles, making it easier for them to earn more money, and giving them a space where they can work and feel like they're, you know, have some sense of dignity about the work they do.

With this company, so why did you start it in the first place? I always am curious about that because entrepreneurs, especially if they've had another company before, You have like this world of options where you can start anything in any space. So why this particular company for you?

Well, I mean, I'm not sure how much you know about my background, right? I'm not sure Harry told you. It's sort of secretive.

I do my research.

So, you know, I started, you know, my adult life as a physicist and then somehow ended up becoming a filmmaker. I mean, not somehow, but, you know. I made some decisions that led me there on that path. So I was working as a filmmaker for a while, and then I made a movie that was supposed to be like my big splash, you know, like my own personal, you know, writing, directing thing. And I ended up putting a lot of my own personal funds into it, which is, you know, you never should do that. But I was so convinced this was the one I did. And a lot of the, you know, other partners and collaborators that I brought on to help me, they put up some money and they were supposed to put up— bring more money. But during the production of the movie, they just sort of bailed and I was left kind of holding the bag.

Yeah.

And I ended up, you know, finishing the movie, barely finishing the movie, but not having enough money to pay the cast, the crew, And vendors like the last, you know, their last check, which was almost $100,000. And so it just, it became a really tough time for me. So I end up in a really dark place, you know, just, just like, you know, long story short, I actually end up, you know, walking away from a relationship. 'Cause, you know, it was toxic at the time because of what I was going through. Um, end up literally, I had a car, so I ended up living in my car for a little bit and, um, trying to figure out how did I get here and being in a position where you're kind of successful as a filmmaker, independent filmmaker. So you kind of don't want anybody to really know what you're going through. So you kind of want to ask for help. Um, so I was sort of in that place where I'm going to just I'm gonna figure this out, right? And, um, and a friend of mine, you know, accidentally found out what I was doing and said, dude, what are you doing? What's going on? You know? And I was like, so I finally told him, you know, and he's like, man, you cannot do this. So he— I went and stayed with him for a little bit, um, while I tried to figure out my next move. And during that time, I, I started seeing all the commercials for— this was about 7 years ago. I started seeing all the commercials for Uber and Lyft and I started thinking, oh, you know what? This could be good for me right now. You know, it could be cathartic. Talk to strangers all day about, you know, what I was going through, the hell that was my life at the time.

Yeah.

And so I decided to do that. And this is how I met Harry. So once I started on that journey, I did a bunch of research about what it's like to be a driver and You know, the things you need to do, the equipment you need to have, blah, blah, blah. And one of the things everyone kept saying was you need to drive for Uber and Lyft at the same time, right, if you want to really do it. Um, so I did that, and within a short period of time— this was here in LA too— within a short period of time, I realized this is really difficult to have one app on one phone, app on another phone, driving through LA and these crazy streets and freeways and trying to have a conversation with your customer. at the same time. It was insane. And I was like, I was like, okay, this is technology. There has to be, uh, a tool that you can use that would aggregate all these platforms into one device so that you don't have to do all this stuff. So that's when I, I'd heard about Harry. So I reached out to Harry and I was like, hey, you know, I'm, you know, I'm a new driver and, you know, I know there's got to be something out there where I could like kind of connect all the apps together in one place, you know. And he's like, no, there's nothing like that, but that's a great idea. If you find one, let me know, I'll talk about it. And, or if you want to build one, something like that. So that got me, that gave me the idea. I was like, okay, maybe this is something I can create. Mind you, I, you know, I was a physicist before, but that was a while ago. Up until this point, I've been a filmmaker, right? So the, you know, that part of my brain hasn't been utilized for quite some time. So, So I didn't know anything about coding and any of that stuff. And so I started just telling passengers about the idea and they started— passengers started loving it. And then I would talk to drivers about it and drivers like, oh my God, if you can get that built out, I would pay for that in a minute. So I was like, wow, okay. So then I just started tossing this around and I didn't know anyone in Silicon Valley except an old buddy from college, right? So I called him up and I was like, hey, I have this idea for a tech company. You know, I know you're working in tech. And he's like, oh God, here we go again. Because pretty much anyone who works in tech, everyone in their family has an idea for a startup, right?

Of course.

Right. So he was like, okay, here we go again. And I told him what I had. He's like, whoa, that's amazing. And I was like, really? He's like, yeah, that's amazing. I'm like, okay, cool. I was like, well, I was thinking of coming up there. He said, well, perfect, because I'm about to go out of country, go out of town for a few weeks. You can stay at my place. So I went up to San Francisco, which was great too, because it got me out of LA, because I was terrified that someone I knew as a filmmaker was going to see me driving around in an Uber. So I was freaking out about that every day. So going to San Francisco was a great escape. So I did that. And some, a lot of really interesting things started happening. So within about, within about 4 months of driving around San Francisco, me telling everyone who got into the car about this idea, I met one of my passengers. I pitched it to, loved it so much. He was just starting a new angel fund with a buddy and they gave me $100,000.

Oh, wow.

So literally that launched my first company. So then I stopped driving for a while, started to build that company, trying to find developers and what have you. And then started to build that out and iterate. And then about 3 months after that, somebody from this really famous accelerator got into the car and I pitched them and they're like, that's a great idea. You should consider applying. So I did. And next thing I knew, I was in Y Combinator. So mind you, this This is literally about 6 months after sleeping in my car, right?

That's crazy.

Um, so all of a sudden now I'm like a tech entrepreneur, like just out of nowhere, right? And, um, so we, you know, so that company, we launched it, uh, launched the product. Drivers loved it. It took off, but partly because I didn't know what the hell I was doing. That company sort of crashed and burned because I literally didn't know what I was doing. I was like, you know, I literally was just like, just lost because I was like, how did I get here? Like, it was so fast, but I learned a lot. And right before I left the company, um, I had the idea for Corielle, which was to do something because the first company, Maestro, which was just an aggregator really, was really small. It was never really intended to turn into anything Like, there was never really something I saw becoming a billion-dollar company, right? It was a really cool tool that was going to be great for drivers. A lot— the big thing about MyShare for me more than anything was the ability to allow drivers to drive, you know, without being distracted, right?

Yeah.

So they could like focus on driving and the technology can take care of, you know, selecting rides and stuff like that. And so that was the big thing for me, which I love about it. And what most drivers loved about it. So it was always a tool. So I never saw it as being this billion-dollar company. So I was always trying to find a pivot. And then Corriel was a pivot. Part of the issue was with my last company is the co-founders weren't really that interested in the pivot I wanted to do. They wanted, you know, they had loftier ideas of turning the first company into an Uber, in which I never saw it. So I left and then I started working on Corriel. And because of the problems I had with the first company, as far as like finding developers and collaborators early on, for Corial, I decided to do as much as I could on my own. So I started, I basically taught myself how to code and taught myself how to design. So I actually wrote the entire code base, you know, the system architecture for Corial, and I designed the entire app. both apps and the website and the website myself. And so I got it all started and then I was able to bring in some developers, you know, as I had more cash because I started consulting as well. So as I had a little bit more cash, I started to bring in some developers to help build out the rest of it. So, which was great because it took so long to kind of figure out what it was going to be, how it was going to look and everything. So being able to have it all come from one place. where I was designer as well as the, you know, the, you know, like the, you know, the builder or the developer. Like the builder, the CTO basically was driving the technology. It made the process much easier, much faster as we would build for such a small team. So as we did that, and then after we were in stealth mode for about, for about a year, almost a year. And then right after, right, so right during the pandemic is when we were really building, which is perfect. Because I had an opportunity to just kind of like, you know, um, you know, like just like, you know, digging and just, just working, getting, getting the product built. And then we launched the MVP last spring. Um, and, uh, we pretty much, you know, initially we just bootstrapped. It was just, you know, some of my cash. And I had, I had a partner who came on early on and, uh, he put up some of his cash as well. And that's kind of how we started it. And then last year, you know, after we launched, we were able to raise a little bit more money through friends and family. And then we got lucky and got accepted into this climate tech incubator called Elemental. I'm not sure if you're familiar with them.

I have.

They've been great. And we're still in that program right now. We have like another month to go. And they gave us, they gave us a little bit of money as well. And so we just started building from there. And funny thing was when we first launched it, it was focused on being more of a B2C play, you know, kind of like, you know, you just open the app and order something, right? You know, the idea for us was really, you know, I should go back a little bit about to talk a little bit about the company. So as far as the company, the product itself, the whole idea for, for, um, for Corgi was this. Most gig workers drive for 3 to 6 platforms.

Yeah.

Right. And the technology that's used to allow people to pick things up and track them is not particularly unique and it's not particularly difficult to build. I mean, hey, I taught myself to code and I built it. So that tells you how simple the technology is, right? So, so my thinking was, look, if the technology is not particularly unique and all the people are doing— all the people, the gig workers who are going to do the work are all the same people.

Yeah.

Why not have it in one place, right? So the idea was one app that does everything. You know, it literally delivers anything or runs any errands on demand. You don't have to wait an hour or the next day to find a person. It's like whatever you need, picked up or you need done in a short period of time, you can find a gig worker in your area to do it. That was the idea, right? As far as the product itself. And then beyond that, after being a gig worker myself and understanding like a lot of the issues we had with the market leaders and talking to hundreds of drivers just from my time as a worker about hearing the same problems over and over about gamification and lack of communication and lack of respect. So, I wanted to also build something that would kind of restore a sense of dignity to gig workers. So, I tried to take away all the things that they would complain about, like gamification and lack of communication, and build those, make those like the foundation for what the company would be. So, that's why I like to say we decided to build a people-first technology company. So, I first tried to understand where the issues were happening as they applied to the people responsible for doing all this work.

Yeah.

And as they applied to the way the customers reacted to this all, this whole space. So I started to solve those problems first, and then I then added the technology that will make that all work, right? So that's kind of what we created with the company. So we launched, say, last spring, and it was really scary because at first it was just crickets. It was literally, we put it out there and I swear for like at least a good 2 weeks, it was nothing happening. And I was like, okay, This is a bad idea. All right.

You know, distribution hours, that's for sure.

And then, um, something really crazy started happening. So people started finding us, just randomly finding us. Like, it mostly were companies though that would find us. So they started randomly just sort of finding us either through the App Store or online by Googling like courier services. And that became, that's how we really started to take off. So we got— we started getting more businesses that wanted to use our service because businesses were looking for an opportunity, like a platform where they could have much more control and much more interaction with the gig, with the delivery driver, right, with the courier, than they were getting with some of the market leaders. So we were able to provide that. And on top of that, we were able to sort of provide sort of a concierge service where we can sort of cater the delivery needs to the particular client. And that ended up becoming— we sort of ended up sort of pivoting more to the B2B side, and that sort of became really our business model more than anything. So now we are really doing well. Like, we— I mean, we're still a small team. We still have not raised any venture funds yet. But, you know, we've just passed $1 million in revenue since we launched last year.

Amazing.

Yeah, we're doing, you know, over $100,000 and, you know, pushing $160,000 in MRR right now. And this is with a really small team as well, where it's still, I'm just still a solo founder. So it's been really demanding. And I think one of the struggles with raising money, it's been tough because, you know, I'm trying to do something that, you know, is really about workers and workers' rights. Like I'm really focused on, creating a better gig economy space for people who work in this space and, you know, who, you know, who make a living, you know, doing this type of thing. So I feel sometimes some of the venture capitalists I speak with, it's not necessarily aligned with their goals in the long run, right?

Yeah.

But I really believe that you can do good and do well at the same time. I think we can take care of people and treat them with respect. and have them have a sense of dignity about the work they do and not exploit them and still create a billion-dollar company. Like, I don't think they're mutually exclusive. I don't think you need to do one to have the other. So that's sort of the thesis that I intend to prove with Corial. Like, we can build something that takes— that all the stakeholders benefit from, the drivers, the customers, and the investors.

Yeah.

You know, like everybody, you know, is valued. And everybody is, is, uh, you know, um, is respected in the process.

Herb, I have a few questions.

Do things like—

a few questions. There's a lot to unpack with what you said, and I want to make sure we get to different things. So one, one thing being, just going back, when we say Harry, it's Harry Campbell from The Rideshare Guy, because people have no, no con— we know him because, uh, he's awesome, and he was on the podcast already. Harry Campbell, he's great. So you went to Rideshare Guy to figure that out as well. So early on, that was for that company. So for Maestro We have to go back to that because we can't just gloss over that real quick. You got into Y Combinator off of this idea, meeting the guy in a ride, in an Uber or Lyft, and you apply, you get in, you go through Y Combinator, all of that. Just take me through how you were thinking about that. You said you didn't know what you were doing necessarily when you were going through that. Just take me through what went wrong or mistakes you made because I'm trying to think of other founders that could maybe not make the same mistakes or can learn from your experience because you did go through it. And obviously you said you learned a lot from that experience, but just tell me what you learned going through YC as a first-time founder, creative film guy going to YC instead. I'm just curious on what you took away from that.

Well, okay. I think the big thing was, um, as a filmmaker, you're pretty much an artist, right? So you do start businesses, but they all typically like sole proprietorships, you know, LLCs, where you just sort of do everything. It's kind of like a, you just gotta like do whatever you need to do kind of thing, right? And when you, but when you build a corporation, which is different, right? It's a completely different instrument, a different structure.

Yeah.

So coming from being an artist, especially a struggling artist, right? Into that was a big learning curve in how you need to do things and Like how you need to like, you know, you know, you know, like just the way you manage the company is different. Like, so it took a while to learn sort of like how that all works. And then also just the people I hired, I was literally hiring anyone who liked me, like anybody who was like, oh yeah, man, I'll help you kind of thing.

Okay, cool.

'Cause I didn't know anyone. So I, you know, The CTO I found on Craigslist, you know, um, and because pretty much everybody else was like, no, you can't do this, Uber's going to shut you down. So they would be like, nah, what's the point of even investing my time in this? Because as soon as you get it built, Uber's going to shut you down because you're going to need their API, which I had no idea what the hell an API was back then.

Yeah.

So I'm like, I don't know what it is, but I'm telling you, I'm not stopping and I'm going to still try to do this, right? Because This is going to be great for drivers. So I know there's a way this can happen. So yeah, so really one of the only people who I found that were willing to really give it a shot was this guy who I found on Craigslist. And then, you know, we were able to figure out a way to get it started. And then I actually got turned down from YC the first time I applied because they wanted me to have a CTO on the team. And at that point, I was using the guy I found on Craigslist as a consultant.

Yeah.

So, I brought him on as a consultant and I said to him, well, if we get into YC, would you come on as the CTO? And he was like, well, okay, yeah, sure. If you get into YC, sure, I'll stop what I'm doing and come on as the CTO. Like, there's no way you're going to get into YC. But sure, if you get into YC, yeah, I'll end all my contracting gigs and I'll come on as the CTO. And then, we got into YC.

Like, here we are.

So, here we are. But again, but I think because of that, the, you know, like the relationships weren't, you know, the best, you know. So I think there was, you know, I think finding founders is, I think the biggest lesson is like trying to find the right match and not just like the first person that comes on that you like kind of thing. Like that was sort of how I did. Literally, I was so lost and so like enamored that I had something that everybody thought was a great idea.

Yeah.

Literally anyone who wanted to help me, I literally just said yes. I mean, even that initial investor that, you know, got me the $100,000, that turned out to be, you know, not a great situation because I signed away rights and things I had no idea that I was doing. Not good terms. No, I basically gave them a ton of equity for just, you know, just $100,000. And on top of that, you know, they had they had a clause in the contract that made it so that their equity could not be diluted, which I had no idea what that all meant at the time. But by the time I got to YC, it was a huge deal. And YC had to literally force them to change it. And then they kind of changed it a little bit, but not completely. But so these are the kind of things that some of the mistakes I made, like literally just not understanding I was literally— the guy said he had $100,000. I was signing anything.

Yeah, $100K.

I was like, to come up with this idea I have? Like, I was like, sure. Um, so that all, all that stuff sort of came crashing in, you know. Um, so towards the end, that, that I think, you know, led to it not working. Yeah.

And Herb, with that too, so I'm glad you shared that because I think there's so many entrepreneurs like, like yourself, like they had a good idea, just they haven't been a founder before. So it's like you don't know what you don't know, right? Like you don't know these mistakes if you haven't been through it or you haven't talked to And like, for me, that's what like fuels me to talk to more people and share these stories because there's always takeaways where someone listens to it. They're like, oh, that's right. I should probably do a little more vetting on that person. Or like, let's look at these deals a bit more, look at these terms a bit more. And like, I find that really useful and valuable from that. And then, and for you then going from that experience, then you said, okay, you have another start, another company. You have this company now. You're like, okay, I'm gonna teach myself how to code, which by the way is incredible. How, what did you do to teach yourself code? I'm curious. go through a boot camp? Did you just look online?

No, no, no, I didn't have the time to do that. So I got online, I got a couple of books, but mostly just— there were a lot of stuff available online. I got online and I started kind of figuring things out. And what I learned as I talked to more developers, this is all they do anyway.

They Google everything. Yeah, they Google everything. Exactly.

They Google everything. And literally you just Google like, okay, how do I change this to blue? Or how do I make Like, it's just, you just Google it and it's like the code's right there. You just start messing with it. Like, you, you can, you know, so that's what I started to do. Um, I started, I basically learned, I really taught myself like, like Python and, you know, um, and HTML5. That was really basically what I started with. And then kind of went from there. And then, um, so just kind of got the, the basic foundation done and then, um, then started sort of writing out the algos. Pretty much in English at first, and then started trying to build them out. And then once I brought a team on, I started to kind of like pass it on to them. And I still pretty much manage the team right now myself.

You do? Okay, perfect. And then from that too, so going from that, so you have enough coding knowledge to be dangerous, let's just say, to build something. And now you're like $160,000 in MRR, which is great. To that point, like you mentioned, like you launched, you kind of had crickets initially. What, like, look, as you look at it now, like, what kind of fueled that growth? You said some of it was kind of random, but as you kind of drill into it, how do you think about that now in terms of acquisition and growing beyond? Because obviously if you want to keep growing, you gotta figure out that the acquisition pipeline, like, how do you think of that, that now at least with the company?

Yeah, so one of the reasons why it was harder to raise money too is because I just didn't have the time. Like, I was so, you know, being a solo founder and also the CTO and running operations and product and everything all by yourself. And almost everyone I brought on, I literally trained them in what they're doing now, you know, because I couldn't afford to bring on like C-level people. So I had to bring on junior-level people that I had to train. And now they're all doing really well. Like, you know, especially my operations guy, Steve. I mean, he came on as an intern and I trained him. And now, man, he is— he just like, he has— he's created a whole new thing on his own. It's It's really amazing to watch, you know, watch him rise. Um, so, so that's kind of what I've been doing, just bringing people on who were eager and hungry and loved what we were building but didn't have a ton of experience, but then, you know, train them into what they were doing. And, uh, and that's sort of how we've been able to, to do so much with so little because everybody's been working so hard. Um, but, um, but as far as the funding, you know, I, I really just had a chance to started to really, you know, like meet and, you know, have conversations with VCs like the beginning of the year, like more like this spring was the first time I started to really have a chance to do it. And so I've been doing that. Elemental, the accelerator that I'm a part of right now, they've actually put a lot of people in front of me as well. So we've had some good meetings. We've gone to diligence a couple of times. But still not the right fit yet. So still looking. We're also considering doing a crowdfunding campaign, which we're probably gonna launch that in the next few weeks through Republic. We've already got accepted to that program. So everyone should look out for that. Probably within the next 2 to 3 weeks, we'll have that launch. And the idea too is to really create a situation which is really, it seems like it's really setting the foundation, the kind of company we're building anyway, because the idea of having, you know, our drivers be owners in the company is so exciting to me.

Um, awesome.

Um, so I am really— and it's funny, um, I've had several drivers email me already before I even exposed the crowdfunding idea, have already emailed me wanting to know how they can invest. Like, is there a way they can invest in the company? Like, they're so excited about the way we're doing this, like the way we're basically doing is sort of the same thing as the big guys, except the only thing we don't do is we don't do e-commerce. It's really a purely courier service. So, but the process is the same. And again, the same guys that work for DoorDash and Uber Eats, they work for us, you know?

Yeah.

So it was the same guys. And what I did was deliberate in the way I built the technology. I deliberately built it in a way that looked and feel like everything else. So there wasn't a huge learning curve when somebody picks up our app and wanted to use it. Like, it's pretty much instantaneous. Like, there's not a lot that they need to learn. It looks the same, which is part of the problem. It looks so good that everyone thought we were like another big, you know, venture-backed company when we're like this tiny little company, really. That's, you know—

You're starting, man. I love it. Already got revenue. You're crushing with that. One thing I'm curious about though with that too is like, Seeing your website, there's a number of different markets and cities, obviously. And if you look at how Uber and these different companies grew, they went city-by-city approach, which makes sense. You have to get the demand and everything and the supply. How have you looked at that side of it for you in terms of which cities launching in new markets? Like, take me through that, man.

Yeah, I tell you, I am very unorthodox in everything I do. And look, I know, I know that's the way you should start a company, right? Because I had no money. And I literally was like, I mean, I had, I had so little money to work with when we launched a company. I didn't see the point in trying to pour everything I had into one market since I have no money at all. So what I did is I said, I'm just going to open it up in like the 7 biggest markets that I know have a large concentration of drivers. Because initially for me, I wanted to see if drivers even, if drivers thought we had a business. model that they could, you know, they can sink their teeth into, that they could like and appreciate. So I just put it out and in like 7 markets as soon as we launched. And that really is what saved us, right? It's because we were so wide, we weren't, you know, we weren't getting a lot of business in, but because we were so wide, it exposed us in a lot of places at the same time. And so we looked like we were bigger than we actually were. So that attracted businesses to us who didn't know we just launched a company, actually.

I love it.

I love it.

That's scrappy.

Yeah. And one of our biggest customers right now, you know, is a company called Easy Cater who's about to go public, as far as I understand. They sort of found us during that time, you know, and they liked our mission creed. They liked what we were about. They liked we were about Empowering drivers, making sure they're paid well, making sure they can work with dignity and respect. They love that. They love the fact, because they, you know, I mean, they had worked with everybody else before, and that was one of the things that they had trouble with, is like they felt the drivers were being exploited too much. So they liked the fact that that was a different direction that we were going in. So they wanted to give us a shot. So they started us off with 20 deliveries about a year ago, and now we're up to almost 800 a week, you know, with them alone. So, and expanding in, you know, in multiple cities every, you know, every few weeks. So, so I think the fact me being, us being unorthodox and saying, you know what, hey, I should probably just start in San Francisco and see what happens, but I have no money. So what the hell, just throw it out the window. And that actually, you know, actually turned out to be good for us. I don't recommend it actually. Like I wouldn't tell other founders, yeah, do that. I think, I think, you know, It was sort of a unique situation for us and it actually helped in the work that worked out for us.

What other ways are you unorthodox in terms of how you're building this and how you think about this? Because you definitely have a unique background with this film thing. You went through YC, then like you have this background that's like, all right, you have all this like breadth of experience. Like how else are you unorthodox in terms of thinking about how you're growing this?

Well, um, for instance, like we put a heavy, uh, Like, we focus a lot on people, right? And not as much in technology. Now, it is a technology company, but again, like I say, a lot of the technology that is required to do what we do is not particularly unique, right? So I can't compete with the big guys on technology, but I can compete with them being more human, right? Being, you know, like more human kindness, like creating a place that Feels like home for these gig workers, right? So one of the things we do that's different is we have a live dispatch center, which is the nucleus of our company, which is which is ran by actual human beings in America that actually some of which were drivers before. So our our gig workers are constantly in in communication with a live person throughout the day if they have any issues, and this is something that they love and really. you know, really appreciate us for. And on top of that, it's also— we also connected that, the dispatch, to the customers. So the customers, our dispatch, and our couriers, our couriers, are all in communication toward the life cycle of a delivery. So it's like, uh, you know, that type of, of, uh, of communication is really what's, I think, been allowing us to grow so fast, because that's what a lot of companies seem to be yearning for, the opportunity to feel like They have a courier that actually belongs to them that they could talk to, communicate well, because things change all the time. Like I would say, technology alone is just not enough to build these companies properly. Technology alone works a lot in AI and other companies like that. But what I'm finding in, in this particular space, in the delivery space, it's a service industry really. So you can't rely completely on technology. And I think I think the bigger companies, um, rely too much on technology. And I think that's why there's so much pushback now in a way, you know, driver, that's, you know, dissatisfaction, even now spilling over to customer dissatisfaction because technology can't do it all. Like, you know, if someone is lost or the address is bad and you have to try to text, you know, DoorDash or Uber and you talk to a bot, and then once the bot's finished with you, you talk to someone in India that can hardly speak English. Like, and you're on the road when this is all happening. So what are you going to do? You're going to just leave the food somewhere because you need to go to your next gig so you can make money to pay your bills, right? So by having a human connection where there's an actual human being a text away, a phone call away that can actually say, hey, oh yo, the address has been wrong. I have— I'm talking to the customer right now. Let me get that to you. Boom, fixed, right? I don't know where to park. There's nowhere to park. And then you got to contact the customer and try to figure out— and like all these ways of communicating that, uh, sometimes makes it harder for them to do their job, we've, we've simplified to our platform.

Hold on, with that, another thing with that, I got to, I got to ask him this because I, I can't pass this up. Okay, what is like the ratio then of like your, your humans that are actually able to help versus the drivers? Obviously, you know, the tech companies are trying to do this at scale so they can hit a bigger scale and obviously grow and all that sort of stuff, but like Is there a ratio you have of what you're trying to keep, or is there like, we have people on that just are handling this full-time? I just am curious on how that works in terms of how you're looking at it.

Okay, so, so right now, because we're so small, we have just one dispatch center. Yeah. Um, and it's, it's ramped. It's like they have like 4 people in it working there.

Okay.

Um, and that's, that's where everyone communicates with. But as we scale, there's going to be a dispatch center in different markets. Like there'll be one, you know, East Coast, West Coast, Midwest, you know, the South. There'll be a center for each one. And another thing that we do too is like, like I said, the— I think one of the things a lot of the big companies do is they spend, they overspend on engineers, right? Like, you know, I have nothing against, you know, going to Stanford and MIT and coming out with a computer science degree at 21 and then getting offered $200,000 by Uber.

All right.

I mean, that's great.

Yeah.

Um, that's not going to happen at Corel, right? At Corel, we, we want engineers that are coming to work. Like, you're not going to come work with us and work on one tiny problem all day. You're going to come with us and find a way to build something new, right? And take us to the next level.

Yeah.

And so, like, so for us, because we focus on people, we want to spend more on having people man these centers, right? Um, at like $50,000, $60,000 Instead of having like thousands of $200,000 engineers. So just the way we're gonna structure the company is gonna be different. And that's gonna allow us to move our resources around in a way that makes sense for us to stay as a company that's focused on people first.

That makes sense. Yeah. I think it's interesting that you're going that route and I love it cuz I think people now see the same problem, right? They see this where there's like, you don't get a human in any type of customer service where people are trying to Automate it so that you're like, oh, we don't have to have a person staff this. Like, I understand it from a tech company standpoint, I get it. But from the people standpoint and the user standpoint, it sucks. Like, it's just not good. So you're always trying to— this, this mashup of how do you, how do you manage that? How do you— how do we have better bots? Okay, how do we have maybe humans? Like, that scales is going to be interesting as well. But go ahead.

But see, that's what happens though, is, um, they— these companies, they become so focused on finding a technology fix for everything, right? And technology is wonderful. I love technology. I mean, like, you know, I love technology, but it doesn't solve every problem, right? Like, you need to find a way to match it up just well, right? Just right. So, and I think especially in the kind of business that we're in, and this is a service industry. So, it really never was intended to be something that is completely ran by technology. Because it's too— there's too many people involved. There's the drivers, there's the consumers, there's the vendors. Like, these are all human beings that have to interact with each other, like, you know, on a daily basis. So you can't just rely on technology for that. And I think that's what I learned in doing the research and what I learned in building a company. When I was doing the research, I was doing all the deliveries in the Bay Area by myself, right? And I would go to different people and I would deliver, you know, their thing. They didn't know it was just one person at the company, me, the CEO, at that point. So I would, I would make these deliveries and then the satisfaction that these customers would have, you know, with the service and the fact that they were like, wow, why hasn't this been done before? This is so great. I think one of my best stories was there was this lady who was, she was throwing up, she was trying to, she was throwing a birthday thing for her mom, but she lost her babysitter. So she got stuck in her house and she just started Googling to see if there was anything out here that could help her. get some of these things done quickly. And she found us. So I literally drove all the way to Santa Cruz from San Francisco just to do her job, right? And, um, and I— so I went to her, I went— so she wanted me to go pick up some stuff from, uh, Target, right, that was already paid for. I picked it up and then had to go to a bakery and pick up a cake and then deliver the stuff from Target and the cake to her mom's house. Right? And that's what our company does. And this lady was, oh my God, she was so grateful. She was like, my God, how many? Can I just tip you more? Like, I'm so thankful. I don't know how I would have done this without you. And so, and I'm saying that is what you miss, right? When you allow only technology to run the show, like you have to mix it up. You have to have that technology because the technology to me is what makes it all work, what smooths it off. But you gotta have a system where people are allowed to engage with each other on a much easier and consistent level.

Yeah. And I know we're almost out of time, so we can't get to too much more, but we'll have to have a part 2 at some point because there's too much to talk about. And I want to see how this progresses as well. But where's the best place for people to learn more about this and also connect with you as well, Herb?

Yeah. So I'm not great with social media, but the, you know, corel.com is the website for the company. On the website, you can learn about, you know, how to download a user app or driver app if you want to become a courier. And, um, yeah, and then we, we have an IG place, IG, IG account is GoCourier, Twitter account also GoCourier, and then, uh, Facebook is Courier.

Perfect.

Facebook.

Herb, thank you so much for your time today, man. Really appreciate it.

Thanks for having me. It was really a pleasure.