Elaine Kessler

Guiding conversations with community leaders.

In this podcast, we'll explore the human journey of leaders, their stories of humility, triumph, roadblocks and lessons learned. Come join us as we journey together and uncover the questions you've always wanted to know. This podcast is brought to you by the Gilbert Chamber of Commerce, perhaps providing resources, connections and belonging for business professionals.

And Rocket Space, an event and meeting venue in the heart of the East Valley with a full service four person podcast studio. All right, Sarah, so here we go. What do you got going on this morning?

So today kicks off Gilbert Leadership Class 30, which I am super excited about. An amazing program year graduate.

Yep. 25 all the way.

Yeah. It is amazing to me how this class gets better every year. This program gets better every year.

It's an amazing program. Who do we got today?

So today we have a Gilbert leadership graduate.

I know we do.

She is a thought leader, an advocate, an academic, and an artist and has made a career out of bringing out the best in others. Today we have Elaine Kessler.

Yeah. There we go. Welcome, Elaine.

Hi. Hi.

Thanks for joining us today. Hey. So we're so excited for you to be on the show. This is going to be a lot of fun. We're going to talk a little bit about you. Okay. A lot about you. And we hope that those that don't know who Elaine Kessler is will come away from this conversation today with a great understanding of an amazing woman that's in the community that's been doing some amazing things. And let's dig into it, shall we?

That sounds great.

Okay, so we start off the show.

With what we call rapid fire round.

Rapid fire round. Okay, so we're going to hit you with some questions. These are kind of single word questions or answer questions, rather. Let's go first. Morning beverage of choice.

Coffee.

Name one thing you can't live without.

Adhesive.

Star wars or Star Trek.

Ooh, Star Wars. Yeah.

What song do you sing on karaoke night, Jules?

Life. Uncommon. Oh, okay.

Favorite color?

Black.

Most annoying sound in the world.

I don't have an annoying sound.

Could it be her voice?

No.

I hear the word no.

Oh, yeah. I don't care for the word no.

When are you most productive? Morning, noon, or night?

3Am Favorite holiday? My birthday.

Favorite sports team?

No.

Town of Gilbert or city of Gilbert.

Oh, town.

Are you a spender or a saver?

Ooh, I'm such a spender in my camp.

All right, hobby of choice.

Eating followed by drinking.

Camping or glamping?

Glamping. Neither, actually. I have a bed.

All right, Then glass half full or half empty?

Oh, it depends on what's in the glass.

I love that. This is why I'm excited to talk to you today. Your perspective on life is so unique. I can't wait to hear all about you.

Thank you to Phoenix Mesa Gateway Airport for their support.

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Visit GatewayAirport.com for more information. Let's dig into it. That was fun. I like the rapid fire questions because it gives us a quick chance of learning about you in these little moments and interesting stuff. You have a bed?

I do have a bed and a house. I don't need to sleep on the ground. That's weird.

Have you done this camping thing before? Okay, didn't go well.

Don't get it.

So no camping as a kid?

I did. We did camp as a kid. Yeah. I camped in college. I've camped, you know, as an adult and I think it's.

No fond memories?

No.

Well, I am actually really interested in digging into your childhood a little bit because you have a very unique story. So a household with dual religion, dual language. Tell us a little bit about your unique upbringing.

Yeah, so I am biracial and bicultural. My mother is from Thailand and my father is of German descent. He was raised in Pennsylvania. So he's white. Um, my parents met during the Vietnam War. My dad was stationed in Thailand and my grandmother was his maid in his barracks. And she was like, I'm going to introduce you to my daughter. And then they were. She was 17, he was 18. They got married when they were 18 and 19 in Thailand. And he promised the military, the Air Force, 20 years if they let him stay in Thailand. And he had plans to go to college, become an architect, you know, the whole thing. But he ended up serving in the Air Force for 20 years, married my mom for 25. And they. She speaks Thai, he speaks English. Thai. In America, you speak English? That's what I was raised.

Tanglish. Is that they call it tanglish.

Tanglish, yeah. That's what she spoke. She tried to speak. She tried to teach me Thai. And my father said that in America we speak English. So it was very difficult because she had a fourth grade education, so even her Thai was limited. And so in the States, it was really difficult trying to navigate the two parental influences. My dad is Christian, my mom is Buddhist. We went to church on occasion and we went to the temple also on the weekends. My dad did not go to the temple. My mom did not go to church. It was Very interesting. And I would go to both. Yeah. And as an adult, I've chosen not to subscribe to anything in particular. And. Yeah. So what else? My mother has dual citizenship, and she got her GED finally when she was 53. So that was pretty remarkable. And they're both entrepreneurs. They're both amazing people. They're both creatives at heart. But, yeah, growing up in a household like that, you are not like your mom and you are not like your dad. So you actually have to create a path of your own, because you don't look like your mom and you don't look like your dad. You don't sound like your mom, you don't sound like your dad. You don't do the things, you know, you don't resemble either of them. My brother was born 11 years after I was. So there were 11 years of my life where I was alone with my parents. And then when he came along, I found my best friend and ally. And to this day, we Marco Polo on a weekly basis. We talk frequently. He sends me cupcakes. He's an amazing, amazing friend and partner in crime.

Awesome.

Yeah.

My house, what you just described, I was thinking about that. I was like, yeah, pretty much most of my kids were hatched, I think. So I think I can relate to what you're suggesting as far as, like, the separation, because everybody's unique. And I say that jokingly, of course. Right. Nobody's smiling, but I'm making a joke here. But the idea of having this independence between the two, I mean, really, that's how we all are. Right? Like, no, there is no other Elaine Kessler. There is no other Sarah Watts. So we're all unique in that regard. But rewind for a minute. Because religion has a big impact on so many people's lives and their decisions and stuff. And you had a duel. When you think about what you've been doing in your career and in life, any influences come from that that you can remember? Like, does any of that stuff impact you as you think about how you kind of developed into Elaine today?

So as far as spiritual or religious influences, I mean, I probably subscribe more to Buddhism than I do to Christianity, and that's in large part because of how I think Christianity is practiced in our society. So when I was in college, I did study medieval literature. I read St. Augustine, and I was like, oh, if only Christians could do Christianity, like St. Augustine says, to do Christianity, which is that is it. That it is ineffable. You cannot speak about God or Christianity with words. You you act, you enact the practice of being Christian. But what I like about Buddhism is that there is this element of detachment and not clinging to. And I love that. I love this notion of not taking things personally, of, you know, being at one with the universe, however you might look at it. And in what I with, with my line of work as an artist, everything I put out into the world is critiqueable and I have to detach from what I think people think of my work and remember that, you know, I'm all about putting out good stuff and if they don't like it, then there's a, there's, there's like some navigating to do. But this, this ability to detach is really, really important, I think in me continuing to produce good work.

Yeah, artists are always thick skinned and so you have to be.

They're not always very much so.

I was actually, I was going to say that' admire so much about you because you are very vulnerable and very, just really true in the challenges that you face. You talk about them and you share them with others. And I think that that's really brave. It's something that has to be uncomfortable and you're okay with being uncomfortable, which is something that I really have admired about you. And I would think that as an artist that is a challenge that you face on a regular basis.

It's interesting that you bring up the word uncomfortable because I do think that. And Ben, you may be right. Everybody may grow up this way to some extent, but I think that there was never comfort in my home because there was never an alignment with one parent or the other or one parent's views or beliefs or politics or religion. You know, so like if you sided with mom, then dad was feeling this, you know, whatever, vice versa. So that I'm used to being uncomfortable. I've been uncomfortable my whole life.

How does that translate to your family and the way you parent your beautiful girls?

Yes, I was going to go there.

Yes, they're uncomfortable too. Now. This has been a tough week for my 15 and 12 year old. You know, I believed as a parent when I started like going into down the parenting route because when my partner, my husband and I got married, we weren't going to have kids. There were too many kids on the planet. If we wanted one, we'd buy one. This whole thing. And then we said, let's not try and we got pregnant right away. And when I thought about parenting, I realized that I'm going to mess them up. There are more creative, colorful words I can use for that I'm going to mess them up. We're going to mess them up. So we started a fund right at the outset for counseling.

So smart ass, all good parents should be.

And they're both in therapy, which I think is really important. We're all in therapy because I think it's important to learn to communicate and to learn to navigate the world as we don't know it. We don't understand what's coming next. We've never been parents of teenagers before. They've never been teenagers before. And so this whole, this whole pursuit that we have in life is really important to do with other people. And so we do look for experts to guide us.

I wonder when they sit here on this podcast 20 years from now, what did they say about their childhood?

It's interesting because both of the children. One of the things I always ask for, for. I don't ask for gifts. I don't, I don't. I'm not a big fan of gifts. I love letters. So I always ask for something written. Give me, you know, it can be a post, it, it can be a letter, it can be an email, I don't care. It can be a Facebook post. It doesn't matter to me. But acknowledge if you want to give me something. Do an acknowledgment through writing. And both of the girls have written that they have really great childhoods and like that's the biggest affirmation as a parent that I can get that in the moment. They're saying that their childhoods are great. I don't think I would have been able to say that when I was a kid. But we're very, very open, transparent people. There's no secrets. Even if, though we might need there to be and there should be some more boundaries, they might say that we need more boundaries. They could say that.

Let's talk about your successes that you've had a little bit more on professional side. Photography is what I know you as the most, but there's more to you on that. Give us a real quick flavor for people that don't know your background a little bit on, on the scope of what you've been able to accomplish and where you are today professionally.

Oh, gosh. Well, I started out in the professional sphere as a faculty associate at asu. I taught intercultural communication and Asian Pacific American Studies and then I got pregnant. So I did that for six years and then I got pregnant and I thought I'm going to go back to teaching after I have these kids that I want to have.

Where do you think that came from? The teaching. Sorry to interrupt you, but I'm really curious about that part. Because you got into teaching, what drove you into that? Like, was there an influence in your life that brought you into the education world?

No, there wasn't a specific faculty member or teacher that inspired me to take on teaching. So teaching for me is part service and part performance. And so I love to perform. I've always been a performer. I started performing when I was 10, and then I performed all through undergrad, all through graduate school. And I saw teaching as an opportunity to serve, but also to get to do a little song and dance in front of the classroom and really do, like, meaningful stuff. So. So in graduate school the first time, I did performance studies and Southeast Asian studies, and I was working to convey the stories of people who survived the Cambodian genocide. And so that act of service I saw possible in teaching. So that's how I got into teaching. Yeah. And then got pregnant, discovered digital photography, and started to do a little bit more work around business and started the business in 2010. Then I went back to teaching in 2018 after my second master's, which is in creative enterprise and cultural leadership. And now I teach at three universities. I teach at parc, I teach at asu, and I teach at the U of A. I teach humanities, the business of entertainment. I also teach Introduction to Visual Arts, and I teach Strategy for Creative Enterprise and Cultural leadership students. And then I do trigger exhibits as well. So I produce art exhibits around specific topics that are intended to produce results and conversations around specific topics like poverty, success, education, voting, the American dream, that sort thing of.

Yeah. So most times in education, I would. Both my parents are teachers, so that's why I'm interested in this. Mostly my parents, my dad was an art teacher and wrestling coach. My mom was an English teacher. And those are very academic arts, similar to what you're in.

Right.

So that's why I'm going with this. The motivation for what you teach in those industries or the services you teach, where do you find that? Because there's not a lot of book smarts that you can have in some of these things. I mean, there's some technical things and there's certainly history and others, but it's evolving. It's always changing. It's very subjective. Right. So where are you finding that inspiration? How do you. I guess because some of these things, like cultural arts and things like that, it's not something you can just like, say, hey, scientifically, this is the equation for that. You Know what I mean?

Well, that's not different education, and it's not received the same by each individual. Right. Whereas, you know, something along the lines of math. The answer is the answer. And what you teach a lot of times has to do with their. Their journey before they got to your classroom.

Yes, yes. So we do. In each of the classes, in all the classes that I teach, starting from when I was teaching Asian American Studies and Intercultural Communication, we always did social identity work. So it's really, really important, I think, for people to understand their privilege. It's important for people to understand where they come from, how they've developed the worldview that they have, and then how they apply that worldview to the works of art that they see or to the people that they meet. So I think that that's also part of the whole idea of detaching a little bit. So if you understand where you come from, you get that your perspective is the way your perspective is towards something or someone else, and it's not personal to that other person. There's the whole element of, like, blaming or ascribing some kind of responsibility to someone else. It's always back on us.

How do you dive into detachment? I mean, how do you even begin that conversation?

Well, so one of the things that we do in all of the classes is we look at social identity. So we go through and everybody identifies for themselves. Their, you know, their age, their race, their ethnicity, their nationality, their marital status, their education, their class status, their sexuality, sexual orientation, all these things. We look at all of these different things, and if people are comfortable talking about them, then we can have a great conversation. But a lot of times people are not comfortable talking about their different identities or at least spending time looking at them. So I break them up into the groups, and then they explore how they're similar, and then they explore how they're different. And then we come back to the classroom and we apply those different social identities to maybe a work of art. What are you bringing to this particular work of art? So you see, so one of the works of art I show in all my classes is a work by a local. Not local artist, but a new artist, Ricardo Cecchi. And it is a young black woman who's crying, and she has a mask over. So it's very salient. She has a mask over her mouth, but the mask is made out of white hands. And then she's wearing rainbow earrings, and then there's an American flag behind her. And so I ask them, what does this mean to you? Based on your social identities. What do you see and what does this mean to you? And it's fascinating to see how people dissect and pick out the things that apply and resonate with them based on their privilege and their social identities. So I mean, it's on the court. Everything's on the court. It's a privilege to do this work.

Activism. When I think of you, I think of activism, I think of photography, and then I think of an activist because you really do stand behind your passions and you try to bring to light some really important topics in our community and encourage dialogue even at a community level. Can you share a little bit about some of the work that you've done in that space?

Sure. I've done quite a few trigger exhibits in Gilbert and it's always fascinating to me to see who shows up, who engages, who speaks out. And I've done stuff for Gilbert leadership. I've done stuff, you know, at different venues, at the chamber, at what was Park University before it became Park University in collaboration with the police department. So we've done all kinds of different types of exhibits. And the goal with the exhibit is to get people to talk to other people that they normally wouldn't talk to. So I love, love, love, love seeing people who have, you know, you know, they're a die hard conservative or they're a die hard liberal. And then they come together over a work of art because all of the trigger exhibits involve art come together over a work of art. And then they're having this rich, amazing conversation that's really juicy where they're seen, they're seen in the art, their point of view. But it's not about politics or it's not about religion. It's about who they are and what they want to represent, represent in the world. And it becomes something completely different. So I think a lot of times when we talk, we talk from these perspectives that are very like binary and it doesn't have to be that way. And I think art is a really great catalyst to driving meaningful, open ended conversations that can generate great results for communities.

You know, in our research on here, you mentioned something in here about a song. I think it's On My Own. Tell me about that song.

Oh, gosh, I love Les Mis. It's such a tragic story. Yeah, I don't know if you've ever read it. So Les Mis by Victor Hugo. He wrote the novel and then Broadway made the musical. So it's Les Mis Zerab. And then we have the musical Eponine. She's in love with Marius. And she can't be with him because he loves Cosette. And they're all tragic characters. And she sings this song in the middle of the night on my own. And it's. It's heartbreaking. And I can relate to that, like, feeling of wanting something or wanting someone or wanting a specific outcome. And, like, feeling as if you're all alone trying to attain it. You don't have any support. You don't have any guidance. But there's something really strangely uplifting about remembering. Oh, my gosh. You know, I am on my own, but I am still here. Like, I am still able to do something. So I. I've sung this song many, many times in pageants and talent shows. I'm trying to think what the. I sang it actually at a talent show for staff when I was at ASU a few. Like, some. Some years ago. And it's just. It's. I don't know. It's a dramatic interpretation of this song from the Miz.

Your jam.

It is my jam. Yeah. I would sing that at karaoke if it wasn't such a downer.

Has the meaning of it changed to you over the years?

So I relate now more to the character of Fantine, who is the mother of Cosette. So Eponine is, you know, in this song on My Own. She's a. She's like a teenager and she's in love. Or maybe she's. Maybe she's a little bit older than that, but I think she's a teenager. But then Fantine, who gave up her daughter so that her daughter could have a better life. So now, as a parent, I relate more to Fantine. And she sings a song called I Dreamed a Dream. And that song is so tragic, but it's beautiful. I like sad stuff.

Going with the sad stuff. Something here. I'm at peace with my life, with almost all the people in it. I often tell myself that I could die today and that I am at peace about that. This, for me, is success. Tell me. Interpret that for me a bit. Unwind that, unpack that.

I don't know. It's pretty straightforward. I didn't expect to live as long as I've lived. I thought that I wouldn't make it past, I don't know, like, 25. There are so many opportunities to have stopped living in my life. Either because I was feeling a certain way about myself or because, you know, I was nearly kidnapped. I was chased by the kkk. I've been in car accidents. I was Run over by a car. Like, all these things, like, why didn't I die? And so I don't ever think I had a long term projection for my life. And now that I'm 44, I believe that every day has to be lived in such a way that at the end of it, if you don't feel like you could not wake up, you need to get everything cleaned up. You need to get all the things resolved and cleaned up so that you can go to bed and be ready to pass. And I've been thinking a lot lately. It's just been. I don't know, this has been on my mind. I've been thinking about how we have an opportunity to make a bigger impact on life. Or maybe our life would have more meaning if we died young. Like I'm thinking about, like when we age, something deteriorates in the meaning of our legacies. And I think about, I mean, anytime anyone dies when they're not supposed to, it's tragic. But yeah, I've just been mulling over how, gosh, when, when we grow old, how do we continue to make our lives have meaning and relev. As we get old? Like, that's, that's the goal. But then you think, you know, most, most people who live to be 80, 85, 90 years old, they're, they're past their prime. They're not making the difference that they made when they were in their 40s or 50s. And so, I don't know, I'm just.

Or maybe their difference just looks different to us. I mean, so I would say that the older generation probably contributes more to the personal relationship that they carry, maybe with their family.

Oh, great, she's getting sappy on us.

I want to know what live in the hyphen means to you.

Oh, so live in the hyphen is being Asian American, being biracial, being bipolar. So living in that space between this and that, I don't often see myself being Republican or Democrat or brown or white. I don't live in the duality, live in between. So that's what living on the hyphen means.

I like it.

Okay.

Do you think most people live in the hyphen?

Unfortunately, no. I think more people should live on the hyphen. I think that the, the fact that we have all these binary setups that you need to be. I mean, we could get into all kinds of stuff here. You have to be monogamous or not. Like there's all kinds of stuff that we put ourselves into these boxes that's really unnecessary. And irrelevant to the success and happiness of our lives. We choose a lot of times to pigeonhole ourselves because we think it's what makes sense. But I don't think that that is what makes us most happy.

We get Ben a hard time about the number of children he has. He. Not my fault actually is, I think, about 50% your fault.

I'm like, elaine, we weren't going to have any kids at all in the beginning, and look, now we're at nine. So. Okay, keep going. If you want to poke, find fun.

Just pointing out that you're in the hyphen and that I'm in the exclamation mark.

What are you talking about? All night, exclamation marks.

I like to talk about legacy. What if you could design and project your legacy? What would that look like for you? What would you think that would look like?

So saying I die at 50 or I die at 90.

Let's go with the 90. That sounds more fun.

Okay, does it? Does it sound more fun?

Because, I mean, you know, body will be great then.

Yeah. So the legacy I'd like to leave behind is one of creativity. If I can inspire at least one student in each of my classes, if I can inspire both my children to go out and take responsibility for their own creativity in the world, that would be very meaningful for me. I'd like to think that the work that I get to produce in the community, in terms of art exhibits and photography, is a way of inspiring people to initiate and take on their own creativity. You know, my motto is capturing your present, creating your future. Because I believe that if we talk about what we want, we can create that now and kind of work backwards and then have what we want. And that's what I try to do in the photography. So, yeah, I mean, the legacy. I don't spend a lot of time thinking about what. What mark I'm going to leave behind. But if I can inspire people to be creative and take responsibility for their creativity, I think that'd be pretty cool.

Are you willing to share some trade secrets? Maybe photography, where do you find your motivation? What's your perspective on that? Everybody looks through a different lens. I know what's your lens.

So I believe that everybody is beautiful. I actually do believe that. And maybe they even become more beautiful when they're in front of me with a camera. And I also think that I fall in love with people when I look at them. Like, that's, it's, it's. I think that's actually how we should be. And I Actually think that might be what happens for people, but then their worldviews or their whatever they think is happening gets in the way. And so I try to be as present and raw and real with people when I'm photographing them. And then I think when they get to see themselves through my work, they actually fall in love with themselves as well.

Nice. I like that.

I will say, when you are photographing people, you make them feel very comfortable, which is for many people, it's not a comfortable space to be in. It is a vulnerable space. And I know that I become very self conscious. And you're very good at reminding me of my turtleneck neck. Turtle.

Turtleneck, turtle your neck out.

Yes, she's good.

She tells you to wipe your nose too, every once in a while.

Sometimes there's a bat in the cave. I'll let him know. Not you, Sarah, just anybody.

Oh, it's Sarah. Okay.

Oh, no, no. You are very talented at what you do.

Thank you.

What's next, Elaine? Where are you heading next? Like, do you have a roadmap? You have an idea what you want to challenge into next?

So the next thing. So I am motivated by milestones. And there is a really big milestone that I want to create for myself. There's an award at ASU called the Sun Devil Circle. There's actually a few people in the chamber that have received it. And it's very hard for solopreneurs to get it. And I'm still trying to figure out how can I get it. So that's what I'm trying to figure out. Trying to figure out how to attain that. And in order to attain it, you have to have generated $250,000 of revenue for three years in a row. And, you know, it's just me, but I'm pretty motivated. So, yeah, I think it's kind of cool. I want to be in the circle 100.

Why is that important to you?

Because I see other people doing it and I'm like, they have staff. Why can't a one woman show get this? And, you know, I think I'm a pretty interesting one woman show. So I think it'd be really cool to be like, I don't know, to get it and then show other people. Solopreneurs and entrepreneurs or one women show can do it. Yeah. So I don't know, I'm just. It's a goal.

So if you were to talk to yourself from maybe let's go back and you have a conversation with yourself from 20 years ago, what would you tell yourself. 20 years ago.

20 years ago, I would have told myself to hang on, take a breath. It'll all be okay. 20 years ago, it was not. It was not a good. It was not a good space for me. And, yeah, I would. I would remind myself that you have a future. It's coming. Just let it. Let it come. And, yeah, taking a breath, that's. As I've gotten older, that's become more and more important. I find I don't know how anybody else reacts to stress, but when I react to stress, I dry heaven like I will dry heave. And it's very visceral. But now I remind myself and I meditate and I take a breath and I listen to my breath, and it's like, oh, wow. It's. I have it all right here inside of me. Like, I can control how the world is right here inside of me. And so I would try to remind. Remind myself 20 years ago that. That. That power was still there.

Let's go the other direction. 20 years from now. What's important to Elaine?

Oh, gosh. Well, my kids will be so much older. I'm hoping that my kids are well and healthy. Hoping that my partner is well and healthy. I'm hoping that I'm well and healthy. Oh, yeah. Twenty years from now, I'm going to have hiked the Grand Canyon rim trim, like, three times. Ooh. So I gotta.

That's.

I gotta create that future.

There you go.

Yeah.

And you'll be in the circle of 100.

I will.

This has been amazing. I've learned a lot from you today. I really appreciate you opening up with us, sharing a little bit about Elaine Kessler person. I really actually don't know that. Well, even though we've been bumping into.

Each other quite a bit, we never know each other. I mean, I don't mean just you and me. I mean in general. And that's another thing that I think is fascinating is that we only ever get fragments, even of your partner, of your children. Anne Frank's father said that he never knew she was a writer. And he said we never truly know our children. And I'm like, wow, we never truly know anyone. Which is amazing.

I have to share. And now we're wrapping up, but I do have to share. We went to see Hamilton again this weekend, and we had seen it. Obviously, pre Covid means something totally different now, going through the last two years that we've gone through. But it hit me in the whole concept of telling your story, not having control over that, that. That really is. The root of insecurity is that someone else is going to get a hold of your story and tell it in a way that you didn't intend them to tell it. And I do believe it's true that we don't totally understand other people's stories. We see it through a lens that may not have been intended so well.

People think that Hamilton is about Hamilton, but it's actually about Eliza.

I. We had a very important conversation on the way home about who's this story actually about.

History has its eyes on us. Yeah. On that note, thank you.

Thank you for sharing with us today.

Yeah. Thanks for being here. Appreciate it.

Thank you.

Guiding Growth compreh? Conversations with Community Leaders.

Ben, let me ask you a question. How do you see other community members being involved in this podcast?

This is going to be a great opportunity for so many people in the community to have a chance to be heard if they want to tell their story or if they just want to be part of this journey with us and help sponsor it in a way that helps bring more people to the table with us. So I think there's many opportunities at hand. Whether you want to again be on the show, reach out to us. Let us know what your story is and how you think you could be part of it. We'd love to hear from you. Reach out, let us know, and we'll see if we can make that connection. Sa.