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You're listening to Shorts and Suits conversations about business, leadership, culture and families through the eyes of two entrepreneurs in the small business community with Ben Kaulfman and J.W. rayhans.

Alright, today we're talking about the separation of house and state. And even if there is any separation, right, Ben? I mean, when we take a look at your business, you, it's been a family business since the very beginning and a family that is growing constantly. And so, you know, what did that look like in the early part of Rocket Media when you and Lindsey were really getting this thing started?

Yeah, there's definitely no shortage of Kaulman's in the house.

No, there's not.

So started off right. We already talked about our beginnings, but it was my wife and I, Lindsey really kind of started the business. Right. She was a physical therapist. Still is a physical therapist, but help me with the accounting and bookkeeping and stuff like that on the business. And so that's kind of how I started working with family. Right. Lindsey took over the financial side of it because that's never been my strength. And it really was just that in the beginning it didn't happen to be a lot more than that. But as we've grown, she's taken on more responsibility and kind of separated from the physical therapist role she had taken on or was, and now is the HR manager for Rocket Media. And over the years we've had several Kaufman family members, siblings of mine that have been part of the business. My sister Laura was part of it, my brother Dan was part of it. I've even had cousins who have been interns with Rocket Media.

Yeah, you know, well, and you know, when you think about it, you're even a leader in your family. I've seen that a number of different times. And so what was that like, you know, when you had family members that are working with you or for you and yet at the same time you're seeing each other at, you know, family barbecues and birthday parties and you know, did you guys still talk about business? How did you kind of mentally separate that in your mind?

Yep, good question. The trick there, I found is to separate it. Just like we said, our topic was house and state. When we are not in the business setting, we don't talk business. It's really hard because it comes up quite often. But we have to focus and really say, oh, that's business talk. Let's not do that right now. If you can't create that separation, then I think it gets too blurred and you really start losing the definition of A family member versus a business friend or associate.

Yeah.

And that takes practice. It really does.

I would imagine that it does. Because, you know, I think, you know, my situation. Tiffany has not really ever been involved in the way of being, you know, in the company. But, I mean, one of the first things that we ask each other when we get home is, how was your day? And, of course, people talk about their workday. So when you guys get home, per se, and Lindsey says, how was your day? You know, does it turn into a business conversation or does it turn into. Well, here's the things that were really my day personally.

Yeah, absolutely. Is. Business is blurred there, for sure. Our nightly walks, just our alone time. When we have time to just kind of communicate, business comes up because it's so ingrained in who we are and what we do. We're blessed that we have nine children. So there's a lot of interruptions with that. So when we kind of have those conversations, it's mixed. But business is almost always part of those conversations. And I think that's okay because we've learned to adapt and adjust ourselves to understand, and that's who we are, and that's part of our livelihood, and that's part of our foundation, who we become. And we're both really excited and proud of what we've been able to help create, be part of. We're part of this train. We're not the train. And so we understand that. But there will probably come a day when Lindsay gets to go back to her set career, which is physical therapy. Right. And we do hope that happens someday. And so that will change things again when she's not knee deep into the work that we have.

Yeah. What do you think when you think about even just the other business owners that, you know, what do you think that challenge is when it is a family business and when there is that. That dynamics of just family, that can be tough relationally, regardless of whether there's a business involved. But what are some of the challenges you think business owners face when it. When it is a family business?

The obvious one is disagreements. When you don't agree eye to eye with something. And let's just say I'll use my. My. When she was working with us and she was running the marketing for us, if we didn't agree on something, it was probably, I'm assuming, because I'm speaking for her here, I guess, but it was probably difficult for her to say, okay, well, Ben's right, or I have to do what Ben said because he's the Owner or the boss. Right. That's gotta be difficult for her. And then for me on the other side, if I disagree with her and she's adamantly, this is what I want to do, I have to sometimes take a deep breath and be like, okay, am I looking at this from a. This is what Ben wants to do? But maybe she's right kind of perspective. And that's when you think about a sibling. You kind of go back to your relationships when you were kids, fighting over toys or whatever you might think of. You gotta make sure you have some clarity there. And so we always had to set boundaries and know, okay, this is when we need to stop. Laura, my sister, the first sibling that had worked for Rocket Media, helped me kind of understand that I was new in the business world as well. So I learned a lot thanks to her. And then when my brother Dan joined, similar, but. But different, you know, because we've learned a lot through the first time.

Yeah, makes sense. And you mentioned something there that I think is valuable, which is boundaries, and really kind of establishing those expectations up front in as many ways as possible. But when situations come up, reestablishing those expectations, reestablishing those boundaries and saying, hey, even if we need to take a step back, what is it that we're really wanting to accomplish here?

Yeah. So let's flip it to you now because you've got two brothers, and I know that they've worked with you throughout times in different capacities with your organizations. What was that like for you?

Yeah. And I think, you know, one thing to bring into this conversation, too, is the strength of the relationships that you have with that family. You know, how straight can you be with each other? How can you respectfully have tough conversations? And how can we go into it knowing, hey, is this a business conversation? Is it a family conversation? And that's what makes me think of, you know, those moments with my brothers of, you know, whether they've been involved. Like, one of my brothers, Blake does our internal coaching. He does coaching sessions with everybody on our team once a week. And then he and I have briefings about that. And so in that situation, it's where he's got this environment he wants to create where there's confidentiality, where our team members know that they can basically share with him what they need to share with him. And then at the same time, he feels this obligation to make sure that I know what's going on with the organization overall. And so we just try to talk through what can you share? What can't you Share. Can you give me trends and patterns versus specifics? And so for us, I think that relational strength really helps a lot. And then I've fortunately had the benefit where none of them have actually been on the payroll, where they've been more of a consulting type relationship with the business. But I will share with you. I mean, we enjoy strategizing together. We enjoy even talking about business or talking about ideas or just dreaming a little bit. Even if it is a family barbecue and all the kids are at the house and they're all running around and playing, and we can very easily start talking about business topics because we enjoy it.

Yeah, that's cool that you have that dynamic. Do you ever run into conflict with that, though, as far as now that you're working with Blake and whatnot, do you run into conflicts there where you guys don't see eye to eye on something and how does that work out? Or how do you work that out?

Yeah, we haven't yet and we may. But, you know, one of the things that it makes me think about too, is just how this turns into, you know, how do you prioritize as a business owner when it needs to be family time and when it needs to be business time? Because you and I both know, I mean, there's moments in business where you just have to get after it and there's a lot happening. There's a lot going on. It could be that there's new initiatives taking place, or it could be challenges that come up and you're put in this position where you need to make decisions. Do I put more time into the work that I'm doing? Maybe work longer hours, or do I still make it home in time for dinner and really make that the priority? I think that's what a lot of business owners, what the challenge is, that blend of where your life becomes your business or your business becomes your life. How do you. How have you navigated through that from time to time? Especially, you know, you and Liz, you mentioned you have nine kids. How do you. How do you navigate that when you know there's more work to be done but yet you know you're not going to get that family time back As.

I grow up, you know, jw, it's a dance. It really is. Luckily, I've got a good partner, a good dancing partner, so that we can lead on each other and I can. We almost have code words or she knows right where there's something brewing in the business because there's ups and downs, as we know, with any company in any Organization and there's times where you have to get in there and just get your hands dirty. And that requires time. But there's also the priority of the family because you and I both know the one thing you can't get back is time. And so what we choose to spend our time on is very important, especially when you have young minds that are growing and someday going to be off on their own. Right. So I see that as a limiting factor of my time at the office because I don't want to lose those opportunities. But there's a good blend. And so the way we work it out is, you know, it's almost on a week by week basis for us. And so we'll kind of categorize, you know, what the priorities are that were happening and then, and then determine, okay, what's bigger for the bigger picture of what we're trying to accomplish. I will say over the years, I think the business has won out more than I like to admit. But that's just because of the demands that we've been put under as we're growing. And you probably see this too, and this is kind of interesting side topic, but as we've grown, we've been able to delegate more and be able to give more, shed some of the responsibility to some really superheroes that we have on our teams. And that's helped a ton. And that, that actually excites me because I look at that and I go, okay, as I'm building my org chart and planning the future of Rocket Media and how it's going to look in the next few years, what responsibilities will I begin to be able to shed so that I can give more time back to my family?

Yeah, well, and you highlight something there too. I think that's something that business owners can think about is, you know, are there things when, when, when business is getting in the way of family, what are the tasks, what are the activities that are causing that? You know, is it, is it things that can be delegated? You know, are there, are there some of those responsibilities that you could hire someone else to do so that they're not, you know, impacting your family time?

Absolutely.

And that's where, you know, I, I'm blessed too, to have a great partner in Tiffany. And, and Tiffany is also one of the things that I appreciate about her is she'll let me know, she won't let me off the hook if I'm spending too much time or too much of my mind is being occupied by work things. She'll let me know that hey, we need you present. We need you here. And I think that's been helpful so many different times to really understand where I can see things through her eyes. Because you and I are both passionate about what we do, and I think that's just an entrepreneurial spirit. You get really passionate about what you do. So it doesn't necessarily always feel like work. And so when you enjoy it and when you're just going about your day, I mean, I don't know about you, but there's been a number of times it'll get. Be six o' clock in the evening. I don't even realize what time it is. But when I get home, Tiffany will help me understand if there's been too many days where it's gone later than it should. And that's something of great value because you have that person to kind of hold you accountable and remind you how important those moments are.

Let me ask you this, though. Have you run into moments where you had to make that choice? Business, house or state? And, you know, you miss sporting events, you miss activities and things like that? Have you found yourself in those situations? I certainly. I'm curious.

Yeah. And I. And yeah, I don't. I don't think that I could authentically say that I've never missed something when it comes to, you know, important events for the kids. But I will share with you that one of the main reasons why I wanted to start a company, why I wanted to be a business owner, is for that flexibility and so that I could be there for my family when they really need it. And so what I can share with you is that when there really has been, like, important games, important moments, important plays, important music, those I've been able to be at every one of them. And I think that's by choice. I mean, there have been a couple times where, looking back, I could have easily prioritized something that was going on in the company, made it bigger than it was, made it more important than it actually was, but I didn't. And I chose to go to the recital, I chose to go to the game. And so I look back on that, and that is a proud moment for me, is being able to make those choices. But I definitely know that I haven't done it perfectly.

Yeah, I'm agreeing with you on that. So let's rein it in a little bit. For our listeners that are thinking about our conversation, what would you say are the takeaways from what we just talked about? That you kind of think if you were recapping this, what's something you want to get out. I got a couple. What do you got?

Yeah. So, you know, one of the things that I would. I would, I would think is really communicate well with, you know, your family. And I think that. And that's where the expectations come in. You know, if you're going to have family working in the business, let's make sure we set those expectations up front. And that way we know how to handle situations. So communicate well, set the right expectations, and then, you know, as much as possible, try not to make things bigger than they are. Really try to step back from a moment and go, okay, is this really that important that I'm at the office or at the shop, or can it wait till tomorrow?

Yeah. I've got a rule of three when it comes to those kind of things. I read it once, let my anger out, read it a second time, think about how will I, you know, what could I possibly have been wrong in that situation? Then third time, how am I going to respond? So I try to always run that through. Whether it takes a day, you know, sleep on it, you know, that sleep on it kind of rule, or even if I have to respond quickly, I always try to do that before I respond because I've learned your emotional state's always the first thing that's going to come out.

Right, sure.

So, yeah. Okay. Those are good takeaways. I think also that you mentioned slightly the boundaries. Right. Understanding those boundaries and making sure you are clear about those. There's a lot of people that have family run businesses that work together day in and day out, and they probably have much more to say about this than we do potentially. But those were important for me when I had my family involved. And we look to the future, which is something we can talk about here next, is we both have young children that are growing into and there's a potential for them to be part of the business. And I'm not saying that I'm building a legacy company, maybe I am. But I would never want to force my children to be part of the company that I've created unless that's something they truly desire to do. And you won't know that until they get about a certain age when they start making those decisions. What are your thoughts? Do you think that's something you're going to be doing or anything in your future like that?

Yeah. Well, what you just alluded to is I would never want any of our kids to feel obligated to take on the family business. And so I think it's Really a matter of positioning. Positioning the company to where, yes, if that opportunity presents itself and one of our kids gets really passionate about wanting to be in the business, then making sure that the business is structured and ready for that. But if that's not the case, then it's also structured and ready for someone else to come in and run it and take care of it and grow it and move it to the next level without me, per se.

Yeah, we call those position agreements in our little world here. So defining the role for which someone's going to be owning and so that when you do bring on a family member, it's very clear, just like any employee really, for that matter, what their responsibilities are, what their boundaries are. But then you have to have that extra layer of how far is too far. You need to know that because there's a lot of times where you're put in situations where personal information could be shared that you're like, you told them what that's happened, too. You got to kind of think about those scenarios, too. So those are all really important things I think you have to consider.

Yeah, absolutely. And the last thing that I'll add to that, too, that is just kind of. I'll call it a tactic, if you will, but to help is, you know, whatever everyone else on the team calls you, then have your family members call you that the same.

Yeah, it's good.

It's like when we're coaching sports, right? Yeah. I might be coaching my kids on the team, but when we're on the court, they refer to me as coach, not dad. And it's because that helps just establish the right mindset to say, okay, this is the role that we're in right now. And that helps us to really understand what those boundaries are and making sure that they are positioned well to be successful.

That's awesome. Family businesses are all around us. I have a lot of clients that are family business owned and I see a lot of great success in that. So I'm a pro family business guy. Obviously. I think you are probably in the same boat. So this is a good conversation. I like this one. Thank you.

No, thank you. Look forward to the next one already.

Sounds good.

Thank you for listening to Shorts and Suits. Your hosts are Ben Kaulman of Rocket Media, a digital marketing agency, and J.W. rayhans of Rayhans Financial, a financial investment advisory firm. For more information, go to shortsandsuits.com if you find this podcast helpful, please help us by telling a friend and rating us on itunes. Subscribe to our tribe and learn more@shortsandsuits.com.