https://www.listennotes.com/e/66434cd081ba408697f77a6dc27e3912

You're listening to Shorts and Suits conversations about business, leadership, culture and families through the eyes of two entrepreneurs in the small business community with Ben Kaulfman and J.W. rayhans. So today there's a lot of opportunities for people to find employment. That's just how it is today. And it's interesting when you think about what that process looks like. And we're going to talk about hiring processes and what we do to attract talent and how we do that. Right?

That's right. Yeah. And this, this is one that I think is a strong topic, especially now. And no matter what time you're actually listening to this podcast, it's probably an important topic at that time too, but especially right now for the reason that you just mentioned of, you know, there's a lot of movement. We talked about that in another one of our podcasts and I think it's important to know who you're looking for and have a process of figuring out who's the right fit.

And I, of course, never had that in the beginning. It was just, I think back to my first employee, who I'm very thankful is still with me, knock on wood. I did isn't changed by after saying that, but the gentleman, he's been with me for now 15 years. And my first hire, I was just, it was out of necessity because I was running out of steam and I knew I needed help and I couldn't grow any further than myself. Right.

Yeah.

I was my biggest blocker. And that's probably what a lot of people are in the beginning. Right. I assume that's where you were too. I know you were. Because we both shared the same office in the beginning.

We did, yeah. And then we figured out how we could share a part time person and afford it. And those are big steps, especially the first few hires are huge steps because, you know, you're taking on risk, you know, you're taking on the responsibility of somebody else's livelihood. And that's, it's a, it's, it's scary sometimes.

It is very, very scary when you think about that from that perspective. And you know, back in that time period, I reflect and I really didn't do much to prepare. It was, I needed help. Can you just come in and help?

Right. Yeah.

And that was, it was so unclear, so undefined. It was just like, I need someone to do this, this and this.

Yeah. And I don't know if it was like this for you, but I know for me it was mostly leaning on like the circle of friends that I had to say, hey, here's what I need help with. Do you know anybody?

Oh, that's what it was.

And there. That was the hiring process, because, oh, they know somebody. They know how to do this. They're good. They like them. So if I like them too, I'm gonna go ahead and hire them.

I think Dave Ramsey said this once. He's like, if they had a pulse, I hired them or something.

To that regard, I don't know if I quite went that far, but it was like, who do you know? And do they seem like they're a good fit?

Yeah.

And that's the extent of the process at the time.

And, you know, you have to have those experiences, I think. I mean, if you listen to us and you go down this journey with us today and you hear a little bit of our processes and you're starting out, you kind of need to have those mistakes, because that's where you learn from, right? Those mistakes. That, yeah, you learn as you go through.

But hopefully, part of me hopes that they learn from our mistakes and then they don't have to make them.

Well, that's the intent.

But, you know, business owners and entrepreneurs can be a little bit stubborn, and so sometimes they got to learn the hard way anyway.

Yeah. Yeah, we do. Okay, so let's talk about our hiring processes now, because we've evolved a bit, and we've. We've been around now, and we. I know that I'm way more intentional behind what we do for our hiring processes, too. So you want to go first?

I'd be happy to, but I know you always like going first, so.

That's right.

I'm going to put you back on the spot. And you go ahead and go first because you know your. Your hiring process, you've had the opportunity to actually share that with other owners, other organizations. You've asked. You've been asked to speak on that. So I really feel like you guys have done a great job of evolving your hiring process along the way, and you've been open to making adjustments with it along the way as you see what works and what doesn't work. So why don't you go ahead and jump in first and then I'll share ours as well.

Well, I appreciate that, and I can't take credit for this office because even though my name is on the line, it's actually my team that helped me put this together. So they all get kudos for this as well.

So, yeah, we know Lindsey primarily did.

Don't say the name. The Evil L. Okay. So, yes, the process was basically formed out of necessity because we kept finding ourselves hiring people and then we'd go, cow. How do we prevent that part of that person that made us separate not happening in. And so we realized that we just needed to create steps. And so we're. We're actually up to 10 steps now on our process that for our hiring process. And I'll just run through it because it's not that complicated and certainly something I'll be willing to share with anybody because it's out there already. So step one, of course, is you got to have someone fill out the application. But it's not that easy because before you can do the application, which is step one, there actually should be step zero, which is defining what you're looking for. Yeah, right. I know that I would utilize. Again, just searching other job listings out there to see, oh, okay. This is kind of what someone else says they're looking for for job X. And this description sounds good to me. And that's fine. Again, it's just like when we talked about our values not too long ago. We can utilize other people's language for that. There's no. There's no copywriting in job descriptions. Right?

Yeah.

But what you really need to figure out is what's the core piece of the puzzle that you're trying to solve for and give them clarity, because you gotta realize that that job description will eventually come back to become what you're hoping they will do for you.

That's right.

And it has to align with your business's needs.

You got it.

And so I've gone now, and I'm a visual person, graphic designer background. So I use basically a sitemap type model where I just model out the different pieces of the puzzle in a visual sitemap. And that helps me kind of organize. And so everybody that's here now has a basically job listing that looks like a sitemap because I'm visual Ben. So that works. But so that part is super important to get Clari on what you're looking to hire for so they can do the application. So application step number one. And really, you know, that comes from all kinds of places. So step number two is important because it's called the Bozo Filter. And in that process, basically our HR people are going through and saying, did they actually apply for our job or are they just spamming every job listing out there with, you know, dear Company X, I would love to work for you. You know, that kind of thing. I just need a job. You'd be Surprised how many cover letters and how many applications we get that are not really intended for our business.

Right.

They were just, again, just spraying and praying kind of thing. And so that's the Bose filter. That's part of it. The other part is, do they actually have the technical requirements on their resume or whatnot that we know we need for this listing? So if it's a certification or if it's some kind of experience. So the Bozo filter works great. Then we do a phone screening. We've got a series of questions that our team goes through that's really just filtering. Again, verification of do they actually have these things? What are their intentions? Sometimes we even ask things like, you know, salary requirements and stuff like that, because we know we have a budget that we're usually trying to work within. So we really. The phone screening is key because it's the first contact that's recorded. We record all these things and we put them all into an HR file that's digital so that our team can kind of check that along the way. Then we go to an assessment. An assessment is typically a working application where we're relative to the job that you're going to prove that you can do what you say you're going to do with regards to a project or some kind of assessment. And it's never meant to have anybody fail. Like, if you fail, you're out. It's more of just seeing your process of how you think about it, you know. And you know, if, for example, if you're a coder, you gotta be able to code, right? So can you do the coding? So there's different assessments for every kind of role. Then we go to the profile and that's really. Basically it's assessment of who they are and it's a personality profile. So we're now asking them. You know, we use different types of things, but you could use whatever you want. And you kind of figure out now who they are from their internal being regarding the profiles of what's their makeup look like, are they going to fit within our team? You know, there's several of them out there. So whatever your preference is, you kind of go through that. Then we finally get into interviews where we do series of team interviews. So the first one typically is the actual core team that you might be working for. So if you're, again, if you're a developer, it'd be the developers that talk to you and they want to kind of feel out that, you know, you're going to fit with their team. But then we go through and do. Even a bigger group, which is typically like the supervisors and myself, sometimes gets involved. Actually almost always gets involved. And that's kind of step six is when I get involved in things.

Okay.

If you get past that, you've done well, and you're now getting background checks done. And we're going to what we call our team fit interview. And again, because we're 26 people right now, we're not huge. It's okay for me to have everybody on the team hop on a zoom call today, or if we're in person, everybody's in the office and we're sitting around. Really, what we kind of think about this one is we're giving everybody a chance to get a flavor. A small little chance to kind of introduce themselves and talk to this person and get an idea of who. Who they are.

Yeah.

What kind of personalities are they? It's really hard, too, because it's just. I can attest it to, like, speed dating. Right. You're just really in the moment, just briefly getting a little bit of a flavor of somebody. But that's helpful because I've learned, and this has happened in the past, that if you don't kind of go through that and give your chance for the core of your team to have an opportunity like that, you might miss something.

Right.

And that's come up a couple times. Okay, so that's a team fit. Sometimes that's a little daunting for the interviewee because they're like, wow, I'm going to be in front of everybody, and I'm going to be, you know, but it's. We try to make it more casual, more fun. So we'll often play games or we'll just, you know, it's not ever been, like, a stressful moment. So, you know, that's been fun. Then we get into family fit. And this is probably my favorite part of it, because unlike all the other hiring processes, my wife Lindsey, and I, Lindsay's involved with the company. We take this person and their significant other, whoever might be, or if they're single, just them, out to dinner, away from the office. We go to dinner, and we have just a conversation. Now, the secret behind that is this. Lindsey, my wife, has a really good sense of intuition about people, like this weird sense of people. And I've noticed that when she's like, I'm not sure about that person, and I hire them afterwards, it doesn't work out. And so that's why this one was added, because I thought, let's use the Lindsay Filter in this hiring process. It also gives me a chance to learn from that person's significant other, whoever there might be, or if they don't have it, just themselves. You could kind of get cues, you know, from them. And I'm not again, trying to interrogate them by any means, but it's casual dinner, having a conversation, and you get to learn a little bit more about somebody outside of the normal workplace.

Right.

And so that's, that's kind of where it goes. And then from family fit, it goes to hire. Okay, so there's your 10 steps.

Yeah, thanks for laying that out for us. So I'll share a little bit about what ours is and everyone who's listening, you'll notice there's going to be some similarities. You may notice subtle differences, but again, you know, figure out how you want to apply it to your organization. And so we basically start with, and you mentioned it, a description. In fact, I was visiting with one of the top talent chiefs of an organization that's in the East Valley just the other day and asking him a very similar question. And one of the things that this person mentioned was how important the job description is. Because one, it helps to. One, it helps to give a little bit of a flavor of the type of organization that you are. So in the way that you word the job description, you can kind of intertwine what the culture might be like at your organization.

Absolutely.

And so job description is important. The other thing that it does, it kind of helps sets expectations on both sides. Right. The person that is looking at the opportunity can kind of have an idea, okay, well, what's going to be expected of me? And from the employer standpoint, it gives you an opportunity to kind of say, here's what we're expecting. And so after that, for us, and we're a little bit smaller organization than you guys are. And so after that is when they'll actually have a conversation with someone on the team that they're going to be working closely with. And like you, I don't get involved until later on. And so that gives whoever that person on our team is an opportunity to visit one on one with the candidate and kind of just ask them a little bit about themselves, a little bit about what they've done, what their interest was in the opportunity, and then that person can provide a recommendation. Sometimes it's more than one, you know, because you can get a couple of perspectives. But from that we've asked them already to submit a resume, and that way we can get an idea of skill set make sure that they've got the right technical skills like what you were talking about. Now, after that, if we feel like they're a good potential candidate, then they will actually have an interview with the team without me involved. And that way it gives them an opportunity to ask anything they want about the organization without the pressure, if you will, of me being in the room. Everyone can speak freely. Our team can speak freely because they know that I'm not there. And so it really gives this kind of comfortable environment to have a conversation and really see what that person's like, what type of questions are they asking, and then give our team the opportunity to get to know them as well. So from there is where I will probably start to get involved. And like you, I at least have one or two sometimes more conversations with every candidate that has the potential to work with us. And so along the way, I'm getting feedback from our team of the interactions. And I'm looking more for character. I'm looking more for a fit on our values. I'm looking more for who this person really is because hopefully we've already identified that they've got the right skill set.

Right. That's usually intentions they gotten that far.

Yep.

They're technically sound.

Exactly.

It's just a matter of personality.

Yeah. And then from there, you know, especially we've got, you know, certain background checks that have to be done and vetting that has to happen, you know, to make sure that. That they're going to be a trustworthy person, especially for Ray Hans Financial. But with Joshua Development, we work with, you know, organizations and leadership teams as well. And so we need to make sure they've got the right background and they can be trustworthy.

Less trust. Less trustworthy.

But especially when it comes to Rayhan's Financial, there are certain protocols that we have to follow beyond that to really make sure that the background is solid.

Yep, I understand. Makes sense. That's good. I think that process, you have a lot of similars. You're right. There's a lot of lines in there. The other key that we might want to talk about is like, how do we find these talents? So you do all this work to get the listing out there. And you're right when you said I'm very fortunate and blessed that we have a great writing staff, content writing staff on my team.

Yeah.

And they're just really good wordsmiths. And so they're really good at coming up with fun, creative descriptions that attract people. Because I will tell you so many times, people said I just Loved your job description. It was just so much fun. I read that. I was like, I got to work there, you know, and I'm like, thank you, content team.

Right.

And not everybody has that, and that's okay. But, you know, that's part of it is the job description. But how do we attract beyond that? Like, what are the things you would do? I don't necessarily mean like what job boards you list at, but are there things you can do as a business owner to every day attract?

Well, and I think this is such a valuable question, especially for small business owners, is, you're right. There's all kinds of job boards out there, and there's various ways to utilize those job boards with any of them. Sometimes it's even just through your chamber of commerce, or sometimes it's through the ones that we see all the advertising for. But is that really going to be your best way of finding people as a small business owner? And so my belief is that a lot of that can be more organic, if you will, or grassroots through the employee experience that you create. And really, are you creating an environment and a culture that makes it so that people love being there so much to the fact that they talk about how much they enjoy their job or they enjoy who they work with or they enjoy the company because, you know, as. As, you know, advanced we are, technology wise, there's still a lot of meaning when someone just says, you know what? I really love working at Rocket Media.

It is. And that personal recommendation tugs at my heart.

Yeah.

Like, really? That's so cool.

Yeah.

How do we do that? How can we bottle that up?

So I wonder maybe just for the moment, how does a small business owner go about doing that? You know, it's, it's. It's fun to say, you know, you create an environment that people love working at and working with. But from an employee experience standpoint, how. How maybe have you or I developed that culture, you know, as. As a small business owner, how have we done that? You know, how have we created the good environment and a positive environment, especially when sometimes we're competing against companies that can pay more than we can?

Oh, yeah, right. So that's a good question. I don't know that I have the answer. I can tell you the Benway, the way I've done things. Let's hear it. And so I think it goes back to a talk we had about core values. Living those every day as best you can to kind of let people see that within you. Right. I think I mentioned that my favorite value is Attitude. Right. Choose the right attitude. And that is. I think it's so true. Because what I try to do every day is bring the best Ben to work that I can. Because I feel that if I come in with that positive attitude and share that energy and just. I give a lot of atta boys and kudos. And it's not because I'm just doing it for fun. I'm doing because they're meaningful. But you make intentional motions to do that. Right. You create that energy. Because it's so easy to come into work and be like, it's a Monday. I don't want to be here. I'd rather just be sleeping right now. Or, you know, all these things that we might have.

Sure.

You name your own thing, but you choose that. Right. You choose to have that, or you choose to come and say, I am so lucky to be here today that I get to do the work that I love to do and I get paid for that. I get to get paid to play like this.

Right.

And I get to be around these amazing people in this amazing environment, and I get to talk to these amazing clients. You see where I'm going with that?

Absolutely.

I mean, that just changes the tone for the day for everybody. And if you're doing that as the owner, that's going to filter through. So how does that infectiously affect your employment opportunities or recruitment? Well, that word gets out.

Yeah.

And people see that and they start noticing that, and they're like, people want to be around people like that. Any good coach you probably ever been with was not only really, probably very rigid in the regime of routine, but also probably had a good attitude about things. Or if they didn't, they at least were positive in the times that counted the most.

Yeah, absolutely. And so for anyone listening, I want to. I want to capture a couple of key points that you mentioned there. And that was, what attitude are you bringing to work? And how are you setting the tone for the rest of the people that you get the opportunity to lead? And, you know, for any of you that are taking notes or note takers, that might be the two things that you want to write down from that. The attitude you bring and the tone that you set.

Yeah.

Because as you mentioned, your compliments need to have meaning and that will carry through. But you also hinted at something there, too. When we think back to coaches we've had or leaders that we've been working with or people we've had the opportunity to learn from, you know, it doesn't mean that they're nice all the time.

No.

Right. It means that they care about you, they want to see you be successful, and they're willing to invest in you to see that success. And they probably see some potential in you, which means they probably push you from time to time, too. But they do it in a healthy way, and they do it in a way that they know is going to connect with you and maybe drive you a little bit. And so for me, I think for any owner or leader, those can be things that you can pay attention to and implement so that you are creating the employee experience. Because one advantage that I think any small business owner has is you have the opportunity to know most, if not all, the people in your organization, and you probably know them pretty well. Right. And so knowing them gives you the ability to create a great experience. That's almost an individualized experience for them. Well, guess what? A core human need is to know that you're cared for and that you're understood. And so if you focus your efforts, even just once a day, trying to let people know that you care about them or that you understand what they're going through or that you're willing to listen to them, man, that's an amazing employee experience that they're going to express to others, and they'll use their own words on how they express that. But from an owner standpoint, those are sometimes things that don't require a lot of time. But, man, if we use the term return on investment, that's a huge return on investment in that person and in the people that you get to work with. That's going to carry a long way, and that does become attractive.

Yeah, A quick point on that and then I'll get back on track. Topic. Just before this meeting, I had just gone through some conversations and calls with another vendor, Right. So I'm the client, and I just had terrible customer service, and it was just so horrible, you know? And I let that sludge. I call sludge the negative side of things. I let that sludge kind of get to me. And right after that, I had to jump on a call some of my team members, and I was leading the call, and the team members could tell. They could tell something was up, and they actually called me. I was like, what? What? What's up with you? And I'm like, all right. And so this, I think, is the point. Be transparent in those moments as well. Because you, if you were always trying to set the tone, be okay and transparent when you're not and explain. So I said, I just had this call I was on the client and there's this terrible customer service, and I was so frustrated. And you guys, I am so glad we don't treat our customers like that. You guys are so awesome. So I flipped it, turned it into a kudo for all them, thanking them for the work that they do, because they do. I'm just so grateful our customers don't have to experience this kind of thing. Right?

Yeah.

Okay. So it's not always going to be roses. And so when it's not, call it out and just share that moment and let others feel that with you and let them. And then what I said is, okay, let's reset this conversation. And then we dove into what we needed to do. Right. Got that out there. So I think that's important to also know. Okay, going back on track with this whole employment recruitment thing. Get out there. That's the other thing I want to say is, you know, whether you're recruiting nationally, internationally, or locally, and, you know, depending on what your business is, if you're small, you're probably local. Although today's world has changed a bit, so we can hire remotely much easier. But, you know, you got to let people know what's going on behind the hood. And so one quick way, this is a quick tip for anybody that's out there. You most likely have a website. You probably have an About Us page that talks about your company. It would behoove you to say a little bit about what your company's like and show some pictures. Yeah, people like proof. They like to see things that are going on. So show a picture from your company holiday party or from a team meeting that you guys have, or, you know, you're at lunch or whatever you think is a valuable piece, and it's okay, and that's it. Maybe you feel like you're bragging or you're boasting or. But you're not. Actually. What you're doing is you're showing people what life's like behind the hood in your business that they might want to be attracted to. And, you know, obviously you're going to show the good stuff. Right? That's what you want to see, and that's okay. But I would put that out as one tip of the things you could do quickly to help attract outside of the walls of your business is show a little bit of that. Share a little bit. If you're a storyteller, tell the story of what it's like to work here, or like you mentioned, even have some of your employees help with that. And have them give you quotes like, you know, Joe Schmo says they love being here because this, this, this, I mean, video is amazing, too. If you can get that on video. And that might not be a thing you can do, but that would, you know, any kind of layer you can add to that, that helps enhance that overall experience people go through to get to know you.

Yep.

Because they're scouting you. They're looking for cues, you know, they're looking through all the different networks, Glassdoor and this and that, trying to find out what's it like working there. What do people really say it's like. And I think that's important today.

Absolutely. And actually, you know, those practical things are probably a great place for us to finish. And turn it back over to all of you that are listening to say, think about what are some really, you know, easy, practical ways that you can express your story, that you can allow your team members to share what it's like to be here, you know, utilize your website, utilize pictures, utilize video where you can, but be okay sharing your story. Being. Being okay to share what it's like in the life of Rocket Media or in the life of Ray Hans Financial or Joshua Development or whatever your organization is. What is it like, you know, a day in the life of. And express that. Share your story. And for those of you that are wondering, oh, does that come across as ego? There are humble ways to share your story.

Yep.

And. And let that be a thought that sinks in of, you know, what are the humble ways that we can still share our story? Because that will attract talented people. It's going to attract great people.

You're marketing your yourselves, you're marketing your team, you're marketing your business to others that you're wanting to attract. Right. So think about it that way. It's just like sales. When you're trying to market what you do well, you're marketing your team and want people to join the right team.

So there you go.

Hey, last thing to say is take care of your own. Take care of your people. Make sure they know that you care about them, that you're on their side and that you appreciate them. That'll. That'll go a mile.

Absolutely. So thanks, Ben. Always great doing these with you. It is for all of you listening. Thanks for tuning in. Thanks for investing the time. You know, feel welcome to share this podcast with others that, you know, that you think might benefit from it. And we just appreciate all of you.

Bye for now.

See you.

Thank you for listening to Shorts and Suits. Your hosts are Ben Kaulman of Rocket Media, a digital marketing agency, and J.W. rayhans of Rayhans Financial, a financial investment advisory firm. For more information, go to shortsandsuits.com if you find this podcast helpful, please help us by telling a friend and rating us on itunes. Subscribe to Our Tribe and learn more@shortsandsuits.com up.