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You're listening to Shorts and Suits conversations about business, leadership, culture and families through the eyes of two entrepreneurs in the small business community with Ben Kaulfman and J.W. rayhans.

All right, today we're talking about the DNA of a good leader.

Jw, I know this is an exciting topic because, you know, even as we talked about, there's so much out there about leadership, but you always know a good leader when you see one.

That's right. So I got a little thing about this one. So you know a good leader when you see one. A good leader is often a magnet for good people. But what are those signs? How can you tell a good leader when you see one? Let's unpack that today. Talk a little bit more about that. I've got about eight things I've kind of highlighted that I think good leaders carry. So maybe we'll go through some of those and you can add anything you think as well. How it sound?

Yeah, no, that sounds good. And I think, you know, some of the stories that come out in any of these eight different traits that. That you listed there will probably be where the value is.

All right, let's start with number one, then. So this first one's really interesting to me because it's something I've looked at recently as far as our turnover. So the first one is your team wants to be around you, your turnover is low. And I think a lot of companies use that as a sign of how well they're performing or how well they're maintaining their talent. Definitely a good sign. And I know that for me, that's something I'm always keen on because I have a lot of people that are working for Rocket Media that have been here for a very long time. And I'm really proud of that because when I started the business, I thought about how, you know, location for my business was primary for me, mostly because of convenience, but I wasn't around other agencies. Like, when you're in an area where it's densely populated with competition, the grass is always greener on the other side. It's much easier to jump over from one house to the next. We don't really have that here where we're located because we're kind of in, you know, almost suburbia. But that doesn't so matter much anymore these days because of how we work.

That's right. Yeah. We work very differently now. And, you know, you and I both are here in Gilbert, Arizona, and, you know, we're fortunate for that in a lot of different ways. But on this topic of, you know, when people follow. Right. And then you mentioned turnover as a key measurement. Well, what's interesting about that is turnover can be interpreted in a couple different ways.

Oh, yeah, it can.

Right. Because there could be negative turnover where people are leaving because they don't want to be with the organization anymore. But there can be positive turnover when they're advancing or, you know, they've grown as a person or they've grown professionally, and there's other opportunities that they're seeking. So there's actually can be a positive sign of turnover or positive sign of leadership, depending on what that turnover looks like.

Yeah. Looking through the lens of leadership, like you just said, that's definitely. There's definitely twofold on that. I think I was mostly thinking more on the side of just maintaining your talent and making sure that they are enjoying where they're being. Right. They want to work for this person because they love this. This leader they're following. Right. And I think that's something that people gravitate toward. And often I never really think about it that way. I'll be honest. I don't ever think of that way. I think I just try to be who I really am, and if people want to be around me, then that's great. But I'm always so focused on driving what we're doing and the goals that I have and where I want to take the business that I don't often look back and say, well, how am I doing for them? Yeah, I know I'm very intentional about taking care of people. I'm super intentional on that.

Yeah.

But I don't look at it from the lens of, like, a leadership perspective. I don't know how you look at it.

Yeah, well, I think what you're talking about there is the way that you invest in your people. Right. And so when they. When they sense that investment, when they see that investment. Because I know one of the things that you guys do a great job of and you do a great job of as a leader is looking at, you know, what are training aspects, what are conferences, what are, you know, tools and resources that will help them be more successful in their role. And then I think, you know, one of the things. And we do this as well, we do this often, and I know you do, too, is even beyond that. You know, what. What are we investing in? What are we helping them with that helps them grow professionally and personally, but also goes beyond just the skill set, and people recognize that. And that's what actually is one of the ways that causes them to follow a leader. But you touched on some other great points in there, too, that I think actually are some of your other eight. You know, when we look at goals or we look at vision or we look at mission, it's also about, you know, are people inspired to be a part of what you're doing or what you're building? So I don't know. I don't know where that is on the eight. But when you think about that, I mean, what are some of the things that you do to help your team understand, where are we going?

Well, that's a good segue, actually, to the next point, which is you know your team and they know you well. And so I think that's one of the things that I do is I try to spend time with everybody. It's really interesting because we both read a lot of books, we hear a lot of talks out there, a lot of different philosophies. The idea of being a friend to your co worker, your peer, your employee is frowned on, I think, by a lot of people in many organizations. I struggle with that because maybe this is one of my faults, but I gravitate toward the relationships I build with the teammates that I have, the people that work with us, and I consider them friends. I really do. Even though I still. I've learned over the years now I've been doing this I don't even know how long, 18 years or so. It you learn that you have to have that layer, but it's hard not to bring them under your wing and kind of bring them into the family, if you will, and. And treat them with that same respect and courtesy. You would have a friend.

Yeah, well, this gets a little bit into culture too. You know, as a leader, what culture do you really want to build in your organization? You know, you can ask. You can ask people that work for different types of organizations. They'll tell you, oh, it feels like a family. Right. Or like, I was even just visiting with an executive leader yesterday, and they're a company that said they're just basically just. It's just business. Like, we just come in, we do our thing, we leave. And so I think some of it is, you know, what type of people are you attracting based on the leader that you are and the culture that you're building? Another leader that kind of helped explain this topic to me was even just letting people know what hat you're wearing in any different situation. So when you are an engaged leader, you know, when you. When you do want to care about people and you want to have where it is a bit more of just, oh, well, I'm just superior. You want it to be where. No, we're co workers, we work, we're in this together. Is helping them understand what hat are you wearing based on the conversation. So is it where you have to start out by saying, you know what this is? This is just, this is just you and I, you know, talking back and forth, or is it, you know, hey, you know, I really need to talk a little bit about some performance things that are going on and here's where the expectations are and this is why we need to meet them.

This makes sense. Now you've got that joker's hat in your office now I understand it's the hat.

For a second there I'm like, wait a second, what hat?

No, that makes perfect sense. And you're right. But, but to that point I said joker's hat because I feel like my hats that I wear top often are multi pronged. You know, I think of a joker's hat with all the points. Right.

Yeah.

Well, I feel like sometimes I have like three or four hats on when I'm in those conversations.

Absolutely.

So maybe being more clear about that, something I can learn to be better at as well. But so knowing your team and they know you well, I do spend a lot of time on one on ones and stuff with my team as well. I love those. In fact, now that we've got this beautiful podcast studio, I often will have my one on ones in this room. Not recording it, but we just sit across and talk to each other with the microphones and the headphones on. It's like very focused conversation suddenly. Right? Yeah, you should try it. It's pretty fun.

I may add that to the list.

Yeah, it's pretty cool. But that intimacy that you get, you know, I love to break bread with people and so having someone over for dinner or going to dinner or just meals in general, lunches, things like that, I think that's another way I get to know people.

Absolutely. Yeah. Well, and that goes into setting, Right. What's the setting that is needed for the conversation that you really want to have? And sometimes going to a coffee shop, going out to eat will provide the right setting for a conversation that you're looking to have. And it's the various ways to build respect too, with the people that you're working with and that look to you as a leader. So I've even noticed. And you experience this in your environment too. We're very age diversified. In fact, even Amongst our team of only 18 people, we cover four different faith backgrounds, five different languages spoken fluently. We have everything from age 18 to mid-60s. And when you think about just the way people are unique, it's how do you relate to them so that they want to open up to you? And I think that's another thing with getting to know them and them getting to know you is how open are you willing to be with them, and then that helps them to be more comfortable to be open to you. Because initially, you know, there might be their own perception of, like, okay, well, what. What can I talk about? What can I talk about? Yeah, but the more open you are as a leader, it's almost like as if it innately gives them permission.

Opens the door open. Yep. Yep.

Yeah.

Okay, that's good. Number three on our list. Here is your company priorities are clear. How you doing on that one?

This one is one that we focus on a lot. And so here's what I think of when I think of company priorities. I go immediately to values. How clearly are the values of the organization known? Because for me, that's where mission and vision come from. And so for us, anyway, literally every single weekly meeting, every team meeting, we have our values and behaviors in that packet of notes. And so what happens is it makes it so that every item on that outline, we show the direct connection to which value it's connected to. So if for whatever reason, there's a topic that somebody wants to talk about, but we can't figure out a way it's connected to our values, it actually never even makes it to the outline. And so that's just one example of how we make sure that those values and those company priorities stay front of mind is repetition.

That's interesting.

Seeing it on a weekly basis and seeing the direct connection. So I'll give you an example for, you know, we do client calls in our weekly team meeting. And so right next to it on the outline is, in brackets, the word relationships, because relationships is one of our values. So we make it that clear to say that's the value that we're connecting it to.

That's good.

Yeah.

That's interesting. I hadn't thought about putting values towards priorities. When I think priorities. Different perspective.

Yeah.

I think of the things you're trying to accomplish that year or that next three years or your five year. So I think about our. Like, we just. We are just in the process of doing our annual planning. Here it is this time here, and we're identifying our top priorities. And that's What I'm thinking when I'm going through that, like, what are objectives we're trying to accomplish for the company this year, whether that be a revenue goal or that be a thing goal or whatever, you know, that's where I, my mind went. But I can see how you can relate those values, which we certainly look at a lot too. But that's where I kind of went with priorities. So.

Yeah, sounds like when I go there, I go there too. So. So that's like my next stage then of when I think of company priorities, which obviously has to come from overall mission and vision. Right. So you kind of as a leader, you make sure you set that vision, which then allows for some of your strategic goals or your tactical plans or your organizational plans. How are we going to make sure we've got the right people? So even though maybe we. We view that word initially differently, it still heads us in the same direction from a leadership standpoint.

And I would say that my priorities in the perspective lens that I just disclaimed, which was like, the things we're trying to do aren't always so clear. You know, I find that that's a challenge that I as a leader run into and that unpacking what's in my head and getting it out so people can understand it and then, then interpret that into things we need to do.

Yeah.

Is a challenge. You know, it can be. And I, you know, I'm a visual person, so I have to like, illustrate it somehow.

Yeah.

You know, like, maybe I should start painting my priorities. That might be a thing.

There you go.

That might be a new way of doing it. I don't know. Yeah, but that, that is a challenge. So I don't know. It sounds like your priorities, which you richly said was value based and then driven from there might be more look more clear. Maybe that's what you're saying. You have a little bit more clarity on that for your, your team.

Yeah, but I relate to the challenge that you're talking about though, because we also have to remember that everyone's going to interpret those priorities a little bit differently. So even when you set goals and even though the goal might be clear, it can be interpreted differently. And so everyone's going to have a little different approach to what they think that means or what they should do to try to accomplish it, or, you know, how they connect to it or don't connect to it and how much value they think they need to put on it versus others. And so that's where the challenge as a leader, I Think comes in is, you know, how do you really make it clear enough that everyone knows what to do? Okay, yeah.

Number four, you are intentional about building your culture. I love this one because I love, love playing the culture thing. You know, this year, we. With. With the changes that have happened with how we work, we coined the thing called rocket love. Rocket media Rocket love. And that's just what we labeled the thing that we wanted to do, the intentional things that we wanted to do to help not necessarily form, but allow culture to percolate. Because you can't really. You can kind of guide it by the things you do, but really it has to happen the way it happens. And so. But you can guide it in the sense that you can bring opportunities to the front, you know, without dating ourselves. Today, we did it at a culture event. Right. And I love being able to share culture events with our teams together, you know, being able to have companies that don't even really do the same thing, but we are in the same building, and so we can share the same type of commonalities there.

You know, I'm glad you brought that up, because from what I understand, the Ray Hans team kind of did like a quaint clean sweep of the whole, you know, pumpkin carving contest.

Oh, yeah, you guys are good. If only you could manage my accounts that way. I just.

Oh, man, look at that.

I can poke right back, man. I know.

See, this is the culture we got here.

That's right.

We can. We can do that with each other, walk out of the room together.

But we're intentional about building that culture. Right. And I think you guys are, too. I know you guys are. So I don't think. I know you guys are, but I do believe that's a good sign of a good leader as well. As we look at other leaders that do that, I can think of many, especially in the local community, or even bigger ones than that, that are very intentional about how they do that, you know, and it's interesting. I love learning other ideas from other people and the way they process their ideas and culture well.

And you mentioned an important word, intentional. I think that you do have to be intentional about creating your culture, because if you don't, and if you're not intentional about it, the culture will start to create itself. Yeah, right. And so the cool thing, at least I think this is a cool thing about the workplace now and is that people really feel like they have the freedom to choose which organizations they want to be a part of.

Yeah, you're right. They do.

Yeah. You know, so As a leader, you can decide what culture you want to build, but you're probably going to want to keep in mind who are the people I'm trying to attract, and does our culture align with the people that we want to attract? Because there's so much freedom and choice, and if anything, I mean, this year has even opened that up or it will lead to opening that up as more companies become, you know, open to remote work and flexibility and a little bit more autonomy, performance driven, you know, goals and results and compensation, all of that allows for greater choice from the team member.

Yeah.

And so culture becomes even that much more valuable when team members are more than willing to choose where they want to be.

Let's add that to our list because I think talking about our processes for hiring would be really interesting as well. So we'll bring that in the future time. But yes, I 100% agree on that one for sure. All right, next one on our list here then. You know, when you're wrong and you're the first to admit it, Amen to that, man. I am wrong almost every day, all the time.

We all, you know what we all are. None of us were created perfect. We were all created unique, but none of us perfect. And so, you know, anybody's going to be wrong from time to time or not quite get it right. It's interesting. You know, we do a team book study, and the book that we're just finishing up now is a book titled Focus the Hidden Driver of Excellence by Daniel Goldman. And this particular section that we just did this morning as a team was three chapters on specifically, you know, the. Well, just leadership in general. I'll put it that way. People can look at the book if they want to know the specifics, but this topic came up in these three chapters of you got to be able to know when you need to apologize, when you maybe got it off or wrong. Learn from that experience and acknowledge it. And it's amazing what will happen with your team when that's done. Well, it's amazing the way the level of trust will continue to build when you can do that, you know, and I don't.

I sort of struggle. This is one of my biggest flaws, for sure. I just submitted another one. You know, when I am wrong, I sometimes question how much I want to let out that I was wrong because I also want to maintain that level of professionalism that you carry. And you, like, you don't want people to know that you don't know sometimes. Sure, you got to make it till you break it Kind of thing sometimes. Right. But at the same time, you got to be open and transparent about that. So there's a little bit of a line you learn as you kind of go through things. And I think, again, based on the team that you hire and that you build, will ultimately kind of become the. They'll get to know you very well.

Right.

Again, everything we just talked about, unpacking all these things, people get to know you. The transparency you have, the culture you build, when you bear. When you have that open communications with your team, you can admit those things much easier, I think, is what I'm trying to say. But you also still want to keep that level of, like, you still know things you know, or even if you do know it and someone else is wrong, you don't want to let them know they're wrong. Let them figure it on their own so they can learn through that process. That's. That's another thing that I've learned over the years.

Yeah. And, Ben, you've acknowledged something that most leaders don't even want to admit. And so I think just the fact that we've included that, to say, hey, look, if those are the thoughts that you're having, man, you're normal. You're a normal leader. So it's okay to be wrong from time to time. But it's a delicate balance when you try to figure out how much do you disclose?

Yeah, it is. All right, number six on our list. Your team gives you critical feedback. Boy, I think I sometimes wish I was a little bit less of a democracy in my organization, because I do allow and actually relish feedback from everybody. One of our values is always kind of questioning why. Why we do things right. And although I really believe that. That we don't ever want to get stale with what we do, sometimes I kind of want them to be like, just, okay, let's just do this for a while. This is how we're gonna do for a while. Right. But we definitely allow this critical feedback. And I don't know, I think it helps the business grow, and it helps challenge me, but I think you have to have that happy medium in there, too, where there's still a little bit of a level. Like, it's not so much that we've done this the way we've always done it, and it's okay. That's the way it goes. But really that you can foster that change in the sense that it's okay to do it these ways because it's been working well. And unless you can prove it wrong, let's continue to do it that way. Does that make sense?

It does, yeah. And this actually might be one of those areas where I thought of something differently at the first part of the topic, but in following you, where you're going with that. So one of the things that I always hope for, and I think most leaders hope for this, is that the people on our team are going to be comfortable enough to come to me when I've done something that maybe I didn't even realize I did. So let's say I offended someone and didn't realize it. Or let's say, well, that's why you've.

Got me around here. They come all the time.

Yeah, I know. Yep. They always go to somebody else they're more comfortable with. Right. They come in directly to you. But, you know, I always hope to try to create that environment. Now, with what you were sharing, though, is. And sometimes we have to realize it's difficult for people to do that. So sometimes we have to just ask, you know, in those one on ones like what you're talking about is simply ask someone, hey, you know, is there anything that I can be doing better? Is there anything that I can be doing to help support you even more? Is there anything I can be doing that will help you, you know, succeed even better than you're already succeeding? And almost invite it in. Because sometimes I think it's just hard for people to do that directly to someone that they see as a leader. Now with the path that you were going, though, I think is also important in this area because there are times it's almost like, and this is something that I feel like I've learned over the years is there are moments where you need to provide direction and there are moments where you need to allow others to share their ideas and insight. And it's not always easy to distinguish between the two because like you, I kind of lean towards let everybody, you know, share their input, share their ideas, give, you know, where they think we should go, and then do a collective decision.

The reality is we don't always know the answer. Right. Like sometimes I'm second guessing myself even when I say this is the thing.

Yeah, right.

You do that.

So it is, it's. And then there's other times where just a decision needs to be made.

Yeah.

And that's okay too. And another great leader that I know, one of the things that they shared is when that's the case, when a decision needs to be made, then please, you know, remember to let people know why.

Yep.

Why did that Decision.

Bring the context.

You got it.

Give them the backstory. Okay. Critical feedback. Okay. Number seven. Without you around, your team still strives for excellence. So that's another good trait or the DNA of a good leader. And I truly believe that's a great one because that's, in a way, if you think about it's kind of legacy style, right. If I'm not around. In our office, we jokingly use the hit by bus rule. Like I always say, well, Ben got hit by the bus. What would happen? And there's a lot of silence. And they're like, some people are like, yes, please. Yes, please. Other people are like, well, I don't know what we would do. But you think about that for other roles in your business, you know, and you just say, okay, if our sales guy got hit by the bus, or if our head, this person got hit by the bus, or even if our office manager got hit by the bus, what would we do? You know, we're always wondering that. Now, that's an interesting way to kind of think about the operational side of things, right? The what ifs. But the idea, though, that your business can operate without the leader being around and it still functions and it still is thriving is a good sign that you've build a good foundation. And I think you've done a good job of that. I really do.

Well, thank you. I appreciate that. You know, what I was thinking of is that I say that because you're never around. Well, and I smiled when you brought up this topic. And the reason is because I know that every time I leave town, I'm going to come back and something will have changed because it's just the way it works, whether it's because offices got moved around or. Anyway, I just smile because it happens every time I leave town. Something's going to change by the time I get back. And I actually enjoy that. I enjoy that our team has the confidence to know that they can make certain decisions on their own. So I appreciate the compliment. And I also know where it comes from, because that's why you got the smirk on your face. So hopefully for any of you that are watching the video that you'll, you have to, you know, you know, tweet Ben later and ask him why he was, you know, smirking so much, but.

Oh, I'll tell you.

Yeah. But I really do believe in empowering others. And I think that's what we're talking about here is, you know, can you empower others? And quite honestly, you know, that's. That's not always an easy transition. The smaller a company is. So the smaller the company is, you don't always have like that cross trainer. You don't always have that coverage. And so if one. Something does happen to one person, it can be really, really hard on a company.

It can be. Lately, if you watch network TV at all, there's a lot of, lot of push for game shows these days. I don't know why. So I've been thinking about that. And I don't watch a lot of tv, but you see all the commercials for these things. And so lately I've, with my management team, I've been playing this game. They don't know it, but I've been playing this game where I say, all right, jw, you're the CEO, here's the situation. What do you do? And I kind of just put them on the spot, you know, amongst everybody, and just kind of see how they would respond. And I'm using actually real world things that are happening to me.

Yeah.

That I'm toiling over. And I'm just pointing at them saying, you give me your perspective. What do you think of this?

Yeah. Well, I like the way you put that in context too, where you're saying, hey, you're the CEO. What do you do?

Yeah.

What do you decide what takes place? How do you handle it? You know, the military uses that as part of their training all the time. They throw you in a situation and see if you can figure it out.

Difference is they have machine guns going.

Around their head when they do that. Yeah. They have cooler toys than we do.

Yeah. Okay, last one here then, is you cultivate leaders from within.

Yeah. Extremely important.

It is.

Yeah.

I paused because I was just waiting for you to kind of take this one because this is your baby. I know.

Yeah. And. And it's important word cultivate too, because of course, I relate that to farming. And when it comes to cultivating, it means that you've planted seeds, it means you've taken care of the land, it means that you've got the right equipment. And so when it comes to cultivating people, it is. This is what I love doing. I mean, it's why I love coaching sports. It's why I almost view my role in our organization, even though, yes, I get to serve as president or CEO, it's really as kind of like head coach, you know, because as you cultivate people, and I think from a leadership perspective, a lot of times we have the opportunity to show that we see things in people before they see it in themselves. And if we really capture that, if we really capitalize on that and almost start to act as if they already are there, that's the way you really begin to decide how am I going to cultivate that person? Is if you can see where they have the potential to go.

One of the things I say when I bring somebody into the company, one of the. And I think hopefully everybody would resonate saying, yeah, Ben said this to me is the best job you can have is the one you create yourself. And when I tell them that, I say because we might hire you for X, Y and Z today because that's what we have a need for. And as you come on board and we learn about you and you learn about us and we find that you are just amazing at these other things that are maybe related or unrelated to what we actually brought you on for. We're going to help you formulate that into something that can help the business because we want the best you. And even though we're finding that initially through this advertisement of what we needed, we're going to learn more about you. And I think that's true. I look around my organization and I look at a lot of the people there that have started at one thing and over time are now doing something different. It may be completely different, but it's something that they found within themselves or we helped them discover. And. And now that's where they're doing and they're loving it. Right. And that's where you really get that energy going.

Absolutely.

That cultivation, I think is what I'm thinking of when I think of that. Farming. Yes. Is a good analogy because it's exactly what it is in some regards. You're planting those seeds like you mentioned. So I love this one a lot because I never want a huge company. I'm not one that's going to have thousands and thousands of boys. I like the smaller size, but even within the smaller size you can cultivate really, really cool opportunities for people to.

Gravity toward and learn to absolutely do.

What they do best.

You know, and to add an additional aspect to this is, you know, what are some ways as a leader that you're encouraging your team to cultivate you? You know, and what are the things that you're doing as a leader to cultivate yourself? Like I'll give you an example and this may be a topic that we talk about in the future too, is. And you're aware of this as even my self awareness continues to grow. I know what are some of the things that drive me some of the things that cause me to change and cultivate, if we will. And that was ultimately building an advisory board.

Oh, yeah.

You know, and going through the process of really looking for key people that we could put in a position of an advisory board to hold me accountable in different ways, to push me as a leader in different ways, you know, to help me think differently. And so I think as leaders, it's important that we look for ways that we can be cultivated.

That's great. That's an interesting note, too, because I always thought you got the board because Tiffany just wasn't telling you what to do enough, so you need more people to tell you what to do. But now I understand.

She always gives me great insight. She'll let me know what I'm supposed to do.

All right, this is a good one. Let me recap real quick. So, number one, your team wants to be around you. Your turnover is low. Number two, you know your team and they know you. Number three on our list was your company. Priorities are clear. Number four, you are intentional about building your culture. We love that one. Number five, you know when you're wrong and you're the first to admit it. Six was your team gives you critical feedback. Seven was without you. Your team strives for excellence. And then finally, we just talked about you cultivate leaders from within. This is a great topic. I appreciate you spending time going through this with today.

Oh, this has been a fun one to go through. And just, you know, thank you to everybody that's listening. Thank you for everybody that chimes in, and we just appreciate the feedback. So I just welcome everyone else to help cultivate you, and I thank you very much.

All right, talk to you later, jw. Take care.

Thank you for listening to Shorts and Suits. Your hosts are Ben Kalkman of Rocket Media, a digital marketing agency, and J.W. rayhans of Rahon's Financial, a financial investment advisory firm. For more information, go to shortsandsuits.com if you find this podcast helpful, please help us by telling a friend and rating us on itunes. Subscribe to our tribe and learn more@shortsandsuits.com.