Jonathan Buford

Guiding Conversations with Community leaders.

In this podcast, we'll explore the human journey of leaders, their stories of humility, triumph, roadblocks and lessons learned. Come join us as we journey together and uncover the questions you've always wanted to know. This podcast is brought to you by the Gilbert Chamber of Commerce. Providing resources, connections and belonging for business.

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And this one I've been asking for a while, so this is a privilege and he's a busy guy, so we're lucky to have him here today.

I imagine I'm gonna walk out of here being very thirsty too.

I think you might.

Okay, so what do we got?

All right. This guest grew up in Ohio and moved to Arizona in 2002 when he drove his rusted out 1988 Chevy Nova out west to explore the vast Arizona landscapes. He launched his first business, a window cleaning company, out of his garage in 2006. In 2010, while backpacking through the Arizona Wilderness, he was inspired to take his interest in craft brewing to the next level to start his own brewpub. He orchestrated a successful Kickstarter campaign to obtain the necessary capital and opened the Arizona Wilderness Brew pub in Gilbert, Arizona in 2013 as the very first brewery in Gilbert. Starting with just nine employees, Arizona Wilderness found quick success, growing rapidly and securing rave reviews from the likes of Esquire Magazine, the Phoenix New Times, Phoenix Magazine, and many more. Arizona Wilderness was even named the best new brewery in the World in 2013 by Ratebeer.com Today, Arizona Wilderness has more than 160 employees and operates the original Gilbert Brew Pub. Please welcome the one and only and very busy Jonathan Buford.

Welcome, welcome.

Thanks for having me.

We're so glad you're here.

I like bio reads.

Yeah, Sarah does a good job and.

It'S a good reminder of all the things you've accomplished. Yeah, like just it all.

I did that to people.

Yeah.

That's awesome.

Well, let's begin with what we call rapid fire. Sarah, go first.

Would you rather spend a day with your best friend or party with everyone you know?

How can you rapid fire that? Best friend?

Best friend. Okay, this one's easier. Phone call or text message?

Text message. Right now. Sometimes it's different Though today is text.

Okay.

All right, Favorite superhero.

I'm watching the boys and it makes me hate Superman.

Okay, okay.

So my Batman's always. That's always one that the darkness, you know.

Yes. Yes.

All right.

Dine in or delivery.

Oh, my gosh. Dine in. Come on, come on.

What is the last book you read?

I reread the Hatchet. It's a classic. It's like something you should read between 9 and 15, your first time. And then I read whatever Oprah's book year leave book was last year and that was a good one. And I wish the Secret Knowledge of water.

Oh, okay.

Yeah, if you're good for like a six month read. There you go.

Oh, I think I know the answer. So maybe. But what's the hobby of choice?

Photography.

But would not have guessed that.

But sometimes photography's turned into a job. So be careful there, everyone. Yes.

Would you ever ride a bull?

Yes.

Have you? Maybe I should have asked that.

No.

Okay.

In your teen years, what was your favorite song?

Weezer just turned 30. That. That day that Weezer Blue came out. Say it ain't so the first time before 8 billion plays. I mean, Nirvana was life changing, but Weezer's blue. For some reason that moment I was like, I like this.

Yeah.

One day with any person living or not, who would it be?

I mean, you kind of got to go, Jesus, right? And go, hey, dude, what's going on? Let's. Let's hear your side of the story. You kind of are going to change the rest of the world. Let's find out what's going on. What's the truth, guy?

Yeah, I like that.

All right, last question here. Glass half full or half empty?

It's just halfway.

It's halfway.

You can't lean either way. It's just halfway.

But I also actually have one more question.

Oh, well then go right ahead.

Which Batman?

The Christian Bale version, to me, was an eye opener of what you could do with those movies with the story depth and still sticking to the comics.

So.

Okay. All right, there we go.

Do you want to curveball that one?

That's a good one.

I'm a Michael Keaton fan, but we're okay with that.

See that? Before it was characters, the story development was where Christian Bale and the character came together. And I was like, oh, I could watch these instead of boom pow bop. I'd rather read the comic personally, but yeah.

Okay. So I thought when we were talking about one day with any person that you might go back to your amazing true Fact of your relation, I'll let you tell.

You know, it's funny. I'm going to be there next week. I have a. My grandfather passed, and so my great grandmother started the first ever church in Gettysburg, Pennsylvania. Four Square Christian Church. It's a crazy story, but she's a famous person. Her son just passed my grandfather. And I'll be in Gettysburg. And when you go in, my dad will make us all salute to General John Buford. There's a statue, and he's the one who chose Gettysburg as the battleground that ultimately won the war for the North. The south was charging forward. They're gonna go to Virginia. And it was all kind of over. Gettysburg's word. All stopped. Jeff Bridges.

I'm sorry.

Sam Elliott plays him in the movie Gettysburg, which makes it even cooler. But he's my great, great, great. Maybe one more great uncle.

Amazing.

Yeah. And at that point, someone said to me, well, that also means cousin, just so you know. I was like, oh, yeah, that's a good point.

Okay.

But, yeah, that's. That's always one of the things that, you know, it's kind of cool.

That is amazing.

Yeah.

And you thought that's what he was gonna say?

Yeah, for sure. I was like, okay, maybe this is.

Where we're gonna go. Yes. And it's funny. I'll be there next week.

That is funny.

I'll have to go to the battlefield again and do the hey, yeah, dad.

That's pretty cool, though.

It is, yeah.

Okay.

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All right, let's talk a little bit about growing up and what that looked like. So Pennsylvania first and then Ohio.

Yeah, Pennsylvania first. Gettysburg was a big part of my life. Not the battlefield side of things, but. But my grandparents were in Gettysburg and then we did move to Ohio. My dad was a pastor. Formed a lot of my. Who I am as a lot of what my dad was, and he. He chose jobs which ended up in. In Ashland, Ohio, for my high school years in a small town before that. So his. His pursuit of theology was a big part of that.

Yeah.

And that's. That's why I was in. In Ohio as he went to a seminary and.

Did you have siblings?

Little brother.

Okay.

Yep. Can't beat him up anymore. He's seven years younger. His name is Andrew, and he's. He's gonna. We're gonna bike pack next week, so this funeral is actually gonna be fun. And I get to see him.

That does sound like an adventure.

I don't. I don't beat him up anymore. So he liked that. I'm not as angry teenager, you know.

Yeah.

Yeah.

He's not involved in any of those creations that you do for work as far.

No, no. He's a nerd. Works for Verizon.

Okay.

Maybe a little different.

He doesn't have to spend $8 million a year to make a little bit of money. He just gets a paycheck. It's fun. Like the entrepreneurial side. You're like, oh, I guess I could have gotten a degree and just got a job. That have been easier.

Yeah. Okay. So what's life growing up as a son of a pastor?

It. You know, obviously I'm going to speak from my purview, my perspective, but it was a great reason to rebel and turned into a complete jerk to my parents. So I've had to work through some emotions and a lot of good therapy and advice and things like that. What it is, is your dad represents or your mom, if your mom's part of it, represents this, like, leader in authority, and you don't know it. You're like, anti authority generally as a teen. I don't know if you have teenagers. I don't, but I do. There's a. There's a little anti authority thing that drops in there. And so I just did not love it. And it wasn't. It wasn't what I would have chosen for myself. And so when I came west, it was a good escape. I drove that Nova you mentioned. I drove out here with nothing. My first $385, which is what the wad of cash I had was, was to go to Milano Music in 2002 and buy a guitar.

Okay.

And my roommate was like, what about bills?

What are bills? Yeah.

And I was like, let me sing about it. Let me sing the blues. Yeah. That was my 2002. Come to Arizona. Yeah.

All right. Talk about what made you make the leap and get in the car and go, yeah.

Well, I was born in Los Angeles and so forth, you know, six months of my life. Apparently, that's what I was.

Okay.

And my dad grew up in California. So always had this dream. Arizona was what most people in Ohio or the Midwest would have thought, just cliche desert. And so I just never thought of it. It was just movies, you know, it was kind of typical desert scene. So I had a friend who had gone through something and needed me to come visit. And I got here, I was like, this is. This is awesome.

You know, where's the tumbleweed?

Yeah. And it was 2001 at that point, and ASU was still the dominant force when you landed it, you know, the highway system was still not really quite what it is today. The 51 and the 101, I think, were under construction. And so it was like this cool burgeoning city. Yeah. Which is crazy to say. And back then people like, it's grown so much, but it felt right. And it was also like, you know, 82. And I flew from whatever. Now I think of things a lot differently. But what I like about that first visit is I can see eye to eye with the out of towner. And that's why I think that wilderness we can do well advertising and marketing towards a Midwesterner who thinks it's all the same, you know, and they come in, they see this wilderness aspect, these green mountains and, you know, snow capped mountains. And. And so I get to. I can put myself in their shoes based on that first reaction I had. And so after that visit, I said, I'm moving. And my parents were like, okay.

Yeah, they did. They were supportive.

They had no choice. In with my fierce independence since about 12 years old. Yeah, it was. I was gonna be me.

Yeah.

Yeah. So that kind of. I think the entrepreneur has a similar story. They weren't normally great in school. Yeah. The owner of Whole Foods, he has an incredible perspective on the business owner versus entrepreneur. I definitely fit the entrepreneur.

Yeah.

Yeah. I'm not terribly afraid of failure, which can be detrimental. But you see, I. Moving across the country is a good example. I had no. I didn't know more than one person. He got me a job at Arizona Biltmore and I met my wife three weeks later.

Wow.

And that was 2002. So.

Yeah. So meant to be.

Yeah.

Yeah.

You just kind of you. Every step forward is always. I think in life is always a positive thing. And that's. That's what I would suggest to anyone else. Keep stepping forward.

Where do you think it comes from that just innate comfort with risk.

Have you seen the film that Alex Honnel, the climber, he free soloed the hardest rock face to free solo Yosemite's.

I've heard of that. I haven't seen that.

Yeah. Free Solo is the name of the movie. They actually did a brain scan on him and his amygdala does not fire at certain times. Now I can on heights. I'm not going to climb an 8,000 foot face without ropes.

Yeah.

But on, on with people and situations. On finances, I probably don't have the same responses. Maybe my business partner even has. I don't feel a lot of connections to wealth. I don't feel a lot of connections to taking a risk and failing. I don't. It doesn't scare me. So a lot of times I have to surround myself with someone who would say, let's not go and do that. You know, let's not start a trail club. Think this through a bit. Shall we? Yes.

I know those people.

Yeah. Yeah. And it's important. So. But they would say that our location in Gilbert, no one would have ever opened that the way I did. Ever, ever. Even Dan Henderson was like, can I show you now what Postino is or joyride? And he's like, I introduced, he introduced me to now a friend, Craig DeMarco. And he's like, you'd be neighbors with this great entrepreneur. And I was like, nah, I like that Arizona Avenue 1 because I get independence. I don't have to have a neighbor. And so it always has been this.

Are you sure?

And so I can look like a genius, but behind the scenes there's a lot of people doing a lot of things after dealing with those decisions, just making gut decisions.

Right?

Yeah.

But I actually was going to ask you earlier, just your responses in rapid fire if you are a genius. Like, have you been tested?

No.

I think you are. You're pretty incredible.

I have a suspicion that every single human has access to their greatest potential. It really is about stepping forward into things, even if you're afraid. And you will find your. You'll find that too. You will also find that it takes a lot of people, it takes a ton of effort from many different diverse thinkers to get to a point where you can look like that. There's, there's, you know, Elon Musk who gets brought up all the time. Right. And he's an idiot from things he said, but his genius is probably based on an idea that somebody had to go do thousands of times over. And when I say he's an idiot, I mean we're all kind of idiots. We're humans just looking for the next meal, looking for clean air and water. That's. That's our instinct. I think when we find a team and we're in the depths of something that we're comfortable with, like talking about wilderness, the people who do it are also part of the genius. I think the thing is genius. I'm just comfortable with where I'm at, that I think that that's what separates what we're doing from others.

Okay, so we better go back.

As I say, we leaped ahead here. So let's go back to the guitar.

Okay, we're going back to the guitar.

Let's go back to the guitar.

I want to know what happens from there, because that's a very pivotal point. It's a very big. Well, not maybe the biggest risk, but it's a big risk on your part. Where did things go? You obviously went to the Biltmore.

Yeah, but I. I was living oddly on Guadalupe and Gilbert in an apartment complex, and I had no clue where I was when I got here. Actually, I accidentally went to the town of Guadalupe and called. I did not have a cell phone, called from a pay phone, and my roommate was like, oh, oh, no. Gilbert in Guadalupe. It's a whole thing. You got to come, you know, come east. And I had no clue where I was. And it was 111, similar to today. And I was just kind of like, all right, I've done something here.

When you think you've gone too far, keep going, keep going.

So I got that job at the Biltmore, and I had a very unique year working service 1. I hate the Biltmore service industry standards. I did not like it.

I was going to say, I'm going to guess you felt like you were trapped in a box.

Two things I learned, though, okay? I was one of the few gringos working in back of house, and everybody else was Haitian all over the world. Hispanic, Mexican, every. Every. You know, and so you. You learn really quick how this culture works where a lot of. A lot of people are doing a lot of work to show the beauty out front. And that's why I say hate. I don't hate the Biltmore. I don't. I think hard work's great. It's just. It set a good standard that I didn't realize I needed to know when I would have kitchens in. In our business one day to understand how to communicate with people who just don't have access to. Generally a white owner doesn't go back to a kitchen and care a lot about that. Well, a lot of it came from that job, and it sucked. Setting up rounds for rich People to come and have an extravagant wedding. It's part of culture. It's part of commerce. We need it. But I just was like, wow, our meetings and our HR department stuff is like this dirty corner. Our lunch access was half of what the front of house access. What's the pay? You know, the pay was what it was, you know, and. And so I learned a lot about that job. And then the second one was I got to oddly meet a lot of really cool people, including. I'm trying to. I'm trying to. Al Davis from the Raiders was really liked us. He came back and he would point every. Every time he would come in because the NFL meetings were there, and he'd point to the banquet setup crew. And he's like, the real workers. The real workers.

He must have been there at one point in his life, probably, huh?

I think he was. He had his Raiders jumpsuit on. And so it made us feel proud. And, you know, and then Muhammad Ali would come in and play piano for us, and he would say, I mean, this. You know, think about Muhammad Ali at that time of his life. He'd do his fight nights there, and, you know, his Parkinson's was very well developed, and he would still play piano. And you're just standing there like, okay, so again, taking the step forward to Phoenix got me to this point. And learning all of that stuff was part of a journey now that I realized it had nothing to do with employment. It was about the knowledge. I was gaining experiences experiencing that. And I still have many friends from that era. And they. They now go, yeah, I remember you not fitting in there. And now we know why. I needed to have my own space and my own kind of room to roam. So that's. That's the Bill More era. And then came the going a little too. Too much partying and too much independence. It's definitely a problem for me if I don't have structure. And so I went pretty hard, as some people do. And, you know, I didn't go to college, but I acted like I did a lot at Ohio State and Arizona State. I pretended to be one of the students for a few years. Then when my wife decided, hey, you kind of need to grow up, it was helpful. It was good. Why? Why? Having a partner's helpful is. It's the bounc.

Are you sure she used the word? Kinda.

No, no. There was some stern words. That old Chevy Nova was cute at first. It wasn't. After a while. So I actually had a good stint delivering pizzas and managing a papa John's a McClintock and Elliot. And again, you know, you look back in your history, who you met, how you, how you met them, and that's actually what led me to my window cleaning business is they were my first client and I was able to, I was able to take all the Papa John's and turn that into a client slowly building a business out of the garage. That was just, again, I didn't know what I was doing. I. You're going and telling people you're going to clean their windows for cash. It's just, it's, it's funny to think about that you are then going to knock on homes and that slowly the home becomes the bigger home. And then you're in North Scottsdale going, it's a $700 window cleaning job. Or I'm going to be inside rooms with $30,000 paintings on the wall. And, and, and so you learn solely over time how to develop a crew and teach them how to do it, get insurance, all those things. But I still wouldn't call myself. I was very worried about backpacking, getting out of town and that was just the cash to do it. It wasn't like I was on an entrepreneurial journey yet. And, and then, and then, you know, from there the backpacking picked up and then this, this thing called podcasting became popular. Back then it was streaming. And I'm very good friends with this gentleman now, but he had a podcast called the Brewing network and in 2005 he started out of his garage streaming. And you'd have to log into the Internet and download this streaming thing. And I listened to every episode and he's still going today. And again, we're friends, which is fun, full circle. But while window cleaning, I'd have this earbud in my ear and I'd hear these podcasts of how people would start breweries. And it was just, you know, it went from 50 breweries to a thousand to two to five. Now there's 11. I jumped in at 1200 breweries in America. So it was still, it was still coming.

Another green still.

Yeah, yeah, there's 11,000 now. But those 12,000, I think 500 of them that year were new. So, you know, it jumped that much. And we were part of a.

Our.

Freshman year was a part of a really great year for craft beer. A lot of amazing breweries opened that year and now they're either shutting down or they're, you know, struggling. But I go back to the window cleaning days, realizing what that meant to my life. 2008 recession. I got, I got a lot of emails. We no longer need you.

Right. That's the luxury.

Yeah. We had a skincare company that we had four locations that were a major part that was, that was step one. And then you turn the news on and banks are failing. You realize, yeah, I'm a window cleaner. They're not going to need me. And so slowly, as houses were foreclosing, I was doing odds and ends window cleaning jobs. I went from going to Maricopa and cleaning 30 houses a week based on neighbors to Maricopa was shuddering. And so again, learning lesson. It was great for me. It was great to have no real fear and go, okay, this sucks, whatever, let's keep going. And it did end. And you do realize how to navigate some of those things to stop spending your money and just ride it out.

I think it's amazing that the universe gave you this incredible education throughout the course of your young adult life and you just took upon yourself to just chase the opportunity, learn from it, fail, move on. Are there any opportunities you look back that you didn't take that you wish you had?

No, no. I don't really view the past as this changeable entity. I'm just, I'm really excited that Arizona is where my path went. If it wasn't, I'd probably say I wish I'd have found a place to live that I liked a lot, like I really embraced. But as the journey continued into Arizona, it's still makes a ton of sense to me that this was the place to be and who. What I'm connecting with, the. The indigenous tribes, history right now is a big part of what I'm seeking and what this desert represents to when we say the universe to some spiritual realm. What does the desert represent to that? Because everyone has a cliche is the best way they have their view of what the desert would be. But it's one of the most diverse places on planet Earth. And so I think, yeah, the journey led me to a state that I can't look back and wish I made a different decision. I married the right woman who really has helped whose hardness it's toughness. I should say can. Can put up with this kind of spirit. But then really likes that I let's go, let's go. She likes that, that about me. So, you know, everything kind of worked out, but it was hard and it still is really hard. It's a daily grind.

Is that that grind? Is it the motivation side of it that you find hard or is it outside perspective? I mean what's hard?

If I could speak frankly.

Yes, please.

Running a restaurant's hard.

Okay.

It's difficult. And it's not. It's not a joyful experience. A lot of the time, it's because the amount of decisions that need to be made wears on you. It's if, you know, Steve Jobs went to his black shirt theory, like he would. He had wear the same black shirt and jeans, because the amount of decisions we have in one day, limited. Well, I. I understand that. And. And so when you have a lot of people look to you and say, I need your guidance, or I need great decisions, or, screw you, you don't pay me enough, or I hate this place, I'm leaving, or I love this place, I'm never leaving. Whatever it is there, it's based on a decision you were probably a part of, and then you. I could go down to the. The legal side of the business, or I could, you know, I could keep going the innovation side.

But it's not necessarily just the restaurant.

I mean.

Cause I could argue that Sarah would probably say the same thing about running the chamber, and I'm certainly gonna say the same about running an agency. So I think it's just running the business in general, right?

It is.

It's the seat that we're all in that puts us in that.

Do you find that part of. It's the balance of how personally invested you are in your team and in your business and in how much you care?

I find that. I don't think that anyone knows what they're doing. If you're asking geniuses who. Like a true mathematician who knows what they're doing, they would say, well, what I'm doing. So binary. It's so linear to an answer. What we're doing here is not linear to an answer. There is no good day in a restaurant or good day. Your company. There's just getting through with more positives than negatives, more outcomes that are successful than unsuccessful. So it's getting caught up in that minutia. It's so much. What. What is good, what is bad? Did we. Are we failing? Are we winning?

That's what I was just gonna ask you. What is a good day? Because it changes, right?

Yeah. And 2018, the height of the restaurant boom in Phoenix and craft beer boom. And the good day then was, wow, can we maintain the growth that we have A good day now is. Can we afford the bills and can we not let go of somebody because of. Because of the future payroll issues that we're facing? So that's If I, in 10 years, we do a podcast, I might say, man, we had a boom and it's back to it. You don't know. And that's that. I'm okay with the unknown. I'm not okay with the minutia because it kills creativity. It does.

Which is where I think I lean on a lot. It's just the simple thought of, you just do the next right thing. I can't tell you what I need to do a month from now or a year from now. I'm just gonna do the next right thing of whatever decision is facing me right now.

Yeah.

And that's all I've got.

I like that I would tell you this, speaking from the heart. This is why I love having female balance in my company. 5050 is a good place to aim. That's which. I don't want to sound sexist saying that was a very female answer, but that answer wasn't coming into business enough in my life where that's good leadership. And this gusto thing that I think masculine energy was really taking over craft beer. And it wasn't just because we were a man. It was just kind of like the Mockingbird. All men were doing this. And so we, you know, we never had that very concise answer. Now we have our head of people and culture. She has a master's degree in hr. And. And it's, keep it simple. Stupid is really where we aim at. It really is. And so I don't get as wrapped up in some of the minutiae. But, yeah, I mean, that's. That's good leadership. What your. Your simple path forward thing is. It's good for your staff too. Yeah.

Okay, so I'm curious. Your comments earlier about the state and how you interpret it and what it means to you. I am curious. What does it mean to you? What do you see in our state that maybe other people don't?

Oh, that might be. I'm gonna have to edit myself.

Okay. Well, I don't think you actually do, but if you feel necessary.

Well, I mean, time wise, I'm not gonna go on a tirade of swearing here for you. Time wise.

Well, that would be fun though, too. Ben would finally feel comfortable.

I might open up.

Yeah. Let's go. I don't know the answer. That's why I said I'd go back and ask. Jesus. I don't know the answer to what's going on here. But the physical world, there's something to it that it's slowly eroding while we're quickly eroding. We get to see the slow erosion of Earth around us. And especially in Arizona, we get this magnetic, magnificent display of Earth falling apart while we quickly fall apart. We're lucky if we have 70 years of cognition, maybe 60, true cognition, where we have our legs, can roam freely. So think about that. We get to be in the state and watching all this beauty come and go and whatever got that here and whatever will destroy it. It's just magnificent that we get to see that. And Arizona is the greatest example of what I think Earth has to offer. It always has more. It will hurt you a significant amount. Your knees will not bounce back. You'll need surgeries. I love that. I think it should be difficult to go have fun. I watch tennis, for instance, and I go. I believe in tennis. I love what they're doing because it's difficult and it's challenging. So when I think about exploring our state, I'm not saying everyone should go bleed a bunch, but it will. If you want to go further, you will find difficulties. You'll find the highest of heights and the lowest of lows. And that is important to me.

What about pickleball?

Again, I like that people are moving. I love that people are moving. I don't. I think that I was going more.

For the intensity, seeing.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Well, I'm going to get metaphysical. Sports are very metaphysical to me. It is a representation of the spiritual competition that we have to have. If we didn't have that, it'd be boring. But think about the movement that what we're offering children. Whatever the game is, you know, whatever part of the world you're playing a game. And it's amazing that we're moving so Arizona, to me, I say all that and I can be alone. The book's coming out in January via Arizona highways, and it's about all 90 wilderness areas. And it's 368 pages, which is a huge win for anyone who's writing a book. I have many chapters where I was the only person in that wilderness when I was there in those times. And that it's not about me. That's about what Arizona has to offer. And the amount of silence that you can experience in the state is still there. And dystopia will set in as you start to see what Phoenix and Tucson. Phoenix, let's be honest, is growing into. But there are good, positive things that the state has to offer. So, yeah, long story short, it's amazing for a lot of reasons, but we get to watch this work withering landscape slowly turn into our. Our precious time here. We get to see it for what it is today. And a million years from now, it'll become. 10,000 years from now, it'll be unrecognizable. That's so cool that we get to see it here, this moment. Yeah.

What is a way that you quickly reconnect with the desert or with our state?

The monsoon season is, is dangerous, so be careful, everyone. But it is really great. I was on a peak outside of Sierra Vista in the mountain range called the Huachucas, and I had a fear storm coming my way, and I had nowhere to take cover. Bolts probably 25 per 5 per minute. Big bolts hitting the ground and it was coming right at me and I had nowhere to go. You'll really learn something about the desert, the activity going on around you, that there's not a moment where there's not everything happening all at once. When you see a monsoon happening, you realize, oh, that's always happening. Whether it's underground in a mountain around you, this energy is always happening. And here in our mind, we think that landscapes are staying the same. And where the movement wants well inside your brain, you don't know what's going on, but a monsoon's happening inside your brain too, and inside your heart. Everything is movement. And monsoons are, are a great way to see that. I, I learned more from Monsoon about my business career than I do in any book. Good to great's fine. Monsoon will teach you something. Where that water has to go, where it falls, how it falls, where it came from. We're the only state in the union where you can see the ocean while not bordering the ocean. There's two peaks you can see, the Baja Ocean, the Gulf of California. That is a huge player in monsoon. And so it just blows my mind to think that we get this wonderful treat in the southwest. So, yeah, what blows my mind is.

That so many of us miss that opportunity.

Well, okay, so we do Ms. Day every year at the brewery. We haven't even talked about how I got to the brewery.

I know we're going to get there, we'll get there.

But we do Ms. Day at the brewery. And I have to be very careful. And my wife has multiple sclerosis. So there are many people with different varying degrees of something that they can't access this. So I got to be very careful. My freedoms are not everyone else's freedoms. There's a lot of black and brown people probably have never had access or anyone who's from a different Culture or family have never had access to this. So I can't act like I'm John Wayne out here, like some hero in a movie. It's not that. What I hope the photography does is I do get to show you that it's real and it's existing and I can pass it to your children. Because the key is, when I was 19 years old, I opened up an Arizona Highways magazine. Now I work for them. And as a contributing photographer, the key is that 19, whatever that person is, whatever age they are looking at that and saying, I can do that. I want to make sure that I always remember my Ms. Friends, though, because sometimes you can't. And life can suck in different ways. And here we're complaining about our jobs. There are people who run businesses from a wheelchair and do not get to go anywhere. And so I try to be more forgiving to that because I'll say some kind of, like, maybe too crude statements about, get off your couch and go. And my wife, like, can we talk? There's days I can't. So to add a dimension to that.

Question, yeah, that's a perspective for sure.

Yeah.

Amazing.

Well, then, let's talk about the brewery, shall we?

2010, backpacking the Chiricahua wilderness. And that sign changed my life. I was listening to that podcast with the window cleaning business and had an idea. I wanted to start it. And I had gone to enough camping, but I was still partying. It was just a party. It was how many millilites I could put down or whatever it was. Then came craft beer. I still drink as much, but it was more special. I knew that there was some sanctity in this bottle comparative to what I was doing before that. And on a backpack, seeing that sign with some beers in my pack, seeing that sign was a big deal. It really struck me as past this point of where I'm at, it's wilderness. And it caused me to say, what is wilderness? What does that mean? Where are the boundaries? Why are there boundaries? And then you get to the. Which we celebrated Tuesday of this week. The 60th anniversary of the Wilderness act was signed 60 years ago by Lyndon Johnson, which would have been Kennedy. And again, crazy turn of events on how this almost didn't happen. And if we didn't have wilderness, what would have happened? That moment wouldn't have happened. For me. There's a good chance it would have been a mining camp because the Chiricahua has minerals and all of our cell phones would have pieces of Chiricahua in it. And think about how Weird, that is. So I saw that and went back and through a series of events, a TV show called Brewmasters that was kind of brand, brand new to tv. I said to my wife, I'm going to start a brewery. And she's like, you are crazy. Whatever. You've never brewed. You don't know anything. Your window cleaning business is not a. You're not an entrepreneur. And she looks back and laughs now, of course, and she understands that look in my a little more. I was like, okay, see you in four years.

Challenge accepted.

Yeah. Yeah, it's gonna happen. So I did Kickstarter, and I was the second brewery to do a crowdfund. The first one I got to learn a little bit from. They're no longer a brewery. And so one of the reasons they're not, and I think we are, is the base story was always what I was talking about. I think product is the most key, important part of your business, not the company culture. Everyone who. Who disagrees with me, let's have a chat. Product comes first. Your product better be dope, better be freaking awesome, better be the best company culture better be right behind that. But that first brewery, when I paid attention to them and many other breweries were just making product. That's all they were. So their product was good. But then culture never followed. We do both. We really aim at the best of both. And the story was always, I want to showcase what I love about Arizona to you. I want you to see this. And part of that was, why isn't any restaurant? And I became friends with Bianco later. But besides Bianco, why was it that no one else was doing this? Why was no one featuring Arizona's, you know, agriculture, produce, meats, and things like that? I was pretty naive, though. So I'm speaking from 13 years later, how many farmers I've worked with and how many. You know, we plant Arizona fries, we plant Arizona malt. We have two farms growing cows and pigs for us. So, I mean, it's hard to look back, but I know that the. The Kickstarter video, this young kid said the things that I'm so proud of. I was really surprised that I. When I go back and look at them like I did say those, it feels like I was too ignorant back then to understand what I was talking about. No, I said I want to represent the state in a new way. I think now my goal is to showcase what I get very upset with presidents they do not mention or any local officials. State officials, I should say, because. Because our mayor has done a good job. All mayors have done a good job talking about small business in Gilbert and Phoenix. But the state level and federal level is no longer saying small business is the backbone. And I'm a little lost. I. I don't get it. How are we not your backbone? You're saying Verizon Wireless is our backbone. And I know that they might be, but we probably. When you go to downtown Kilbert, you're going to go. I go to Clever Coy. They're my homies and they're cool. We make the city cool. We all, all small businesses make Gilbert worth what, what it is.

You give it the personality.

Yeah. Yeah. So I think.

And the passion for that.

Yeah. So I, I now get. My duty here is to write a blueprint that Bianco passed down. And my job is to pass that to the next person so that, you know, that moment on the couch telling my wife that it wasn't about the beer. It wasn't. It was about this blueprint model Again, back to that minutiae, though. You get caught up in trying to pull. Push this boulder up a mountain. You get caught up in that, even with help, it still can wear you down. And then Phil Stutz has his documentary come out called Stutz and he's changed my life. That's a story of life. Keep working. That's what it is. It will not you. When you stop working, you might as well not be here. So it's helped me understand. This is the boulder I'm pushing. This is my Boulder Wilderness Brewing Company. And all the things around it are the Boulder I'm pushing with 185 employees currently. But yeah, and it's going to get wet.

It's going to have lightning, it's going to have mud.

Yeah, all that stuff. Many people quit on it because you. You misled them. There's going to be people who, who stand by your side because of one thing you did once, and they just trust you forever. There's so many different aspects, but, yeah, I mean, to jump ahead. There were some moments in there I didn't know what I was doing. There's some moments and I was overwhelmed and. And I think we're a better business now than then. And we've added some cool people. I don't know how I could have done better. I. I walked into a crappy rundown. What people say strip mall. I fight that one. It's a standalone building and I did everything I possibly could to make the world know we were there. That was my. My sole Job and responsibility, fiduciary duty, if you will. And in the end, I think people listened. Then it was my job to hire the right people. Then it was my job to tell those people, here's what we want to do. Here's expectations, here's the clear future for you. And it continues. So the brewery is when people say, so many will joke and say, he's got a beer as a brew. You know, I have a lot of great brewers on my team. One, all of them are incredible. They could go start their own brewery and be successful at any point and we'd encourage that. But we'd also like to give them a home here while they're here and say, you are literally the best brewers. My head executive chef David was born in Mexico City and started dishwashing 20 years ago in Flagstaff, Arizona. And my head of restaurant hired him from the back door. Twenty years later, they're running a restaurant. It's one of the great American dream stories. And this brown skinned man who didn't know a thing about English is now an executive chef winning devour awards. So all of this. Would I have known that on that couch? No. But my wife now goes, I now get it. You were just struck by that lightning. Pun it, you know, on callback. You were struck by something and poor guy, she says poor guy about me and now other people understand it. I can't do much about it. I gotta go. Like, you know, I decided to do an iron man one day to get rid of some energy and I did it. I wasn't quite ready for it. I did it on my own. I started in Saguaro Lake and I went around McDowell Mountain 10.

Unregistered.

Just unregistered. Yeah, because this energy builds up and I got to get it out. So whether it's guitar, backpacking or photography. Yeah, I got to get the energy out. And, and, and because I'm afraid that I'll go start another thing for wilderness, you know, so I. My wife gets me a little more now and I think she appreciates that I took her 401k to start a brewery, you know, 13 years, you know, after I did that. It's kind of working.

Yes, it's kind of working.

It's there, it's doing something. I'm proud of it. And you know, you know, so.

And along the way, the one thing I am curious about is your business partner. How do you convince somebody else to chase this dream with you?

Yeah, well, I think Patrick, I think the world of Pat. I think Patrick the best example I can give you of who he really is is when he's running that 100. He'll stay himself the whole time. He'll get it done, but he won't try to win. He won't try to do anything out of his means, but he'll grind it out. He won't complain once. Miles 67. The famous, like, mid-60s where you want to bonk and just quit. He won't. He'll get it done. Ultramarathoning is kind of Patrick. He will go the distance with you. He will stay in the game with you. He is very thoughtful. So going back to how to get him, how to convince him, he has a version of the story that I laugh at, but the arrogance that I displayed, well, he gets it now. When you're a kid in a garage with a window cleaning business and you're starting a brewery, you got to be a little cocky. I've talked to Chris about this and Joe Johnson, I've talked to him about this. I've gotten some good mentorship from them. You were talking about mentors earlier. I've gotten some good mentorship where I think there's a time for that and there's a time to stop. But in the beginning, I was heavy into that, and he took it as, you're going to come work for me one day. He was working at San Tan Brewing Company, and I was like, you're going to come work for me one day. In my mind, I was like, hey, you'd be an asset. Let's do this together, you know, but.

Didn'T know what you didn't know. And that's a good thing.

Exactly. And whatever realm I was in, I don't know if I saw the truth. I had to get this boulder going. And anyone who started a business knows what I'm talking about. That's actually harder than running the business. But you don't remember it, and you.

Don'T have any fear of that either. Yeah, it's just like what you do, right?

My recency bias makes me feel what I'm going through now the most. If I went back down, I'd be, oh, my gosh, I had $70 to my name. My wife had a 401k that I was accessing, taking the 10% hit. I had to go talk a brewer into it because I didn't know how to brew. I didn't know what I was doing. I had home brewed with Kickstarter money. This guy, I had to have him. He's also pretty Blue eyes and girls were like, yeah, I like him. Not that that matters, but it was his charm. That's my point. He's got a lovely partner, and I. One of the best people. She's one of the best people ever. But back then, I liked what people thought about him, and I knew that that's a partner I was looking for. So talking him into it wasn't easy. He wasn't into it. Then he came down, saw the setup, saw the beer and tasted the beer and was like, oh, this is the best beer I've had in the state. What's going on here? And that's when we say proof is in the pudding. That's how. That's how it should be. Your product should be amazing. Your story should not lead as the best thing you have. Your product should be amazing. Whatever you're doing, the product needs to be the best.

So you're saying you want them through your stomach?

Yeah, it's taste buds. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. And I think he was a little freaked out by me. I mean, who wouldn't be? You're what?

Huh?

And over time, you know, you should have him on because he's. He is. I think he's a genius, and his intellect will come through the whole time, and he's so different than me in other ways, and his perspective is incredible. But you'll be like, man, what a perfect CEO Those two combined. It was meant to be. I went to see a psychic, and I walked in, and she said, and this was in Sedona. Very classic Sedona. She said, best psychic, by the way.

Irish.

Yeah, In Sedona.

Irish. Irish. Patrick. He is your meant to be. Other first thing she said to me, wow. Okay. I found her by flipping through a book, and I was like, oh, go see that one. So this person wouldn't have known I'm coming in. I'm like, okay. She's like, yeah, you guys were Celtic warriors at one point. Okay. I guess you could have assumed I have a friend named Patrick as, like, a white guy walking in your office, but that seems pretty legit. She's like, yeah, he's a part of your soul journey. Okay.

Sure enough.

Yeah. Yeah.

I also just find it really inspiring how you see the potential in others and you know who to surround yourself with. I mean, I just don't.

I love that you see that, because I. Sorry to cut you off. Yeah. No, but when I go back to what we do, we give people a spotlight, Whatever the spotlight may be. And whatever they want will be the spotlight they Get. All they have to do in return is do their job. And again, clear expectations, clear pathway.

Sure.

It's all we're asking for in return. If Matt Myers is the bartender that everyone knows at Wilderness, he's been there since day 25. He's one of the greatest humans alive. If you stick around long enough again, maybe he comes on once. What it's like to work at Wilderness. You will get a voice in a particular way. I won't give it to you. To just grow out of this thing that we have, the special energy we have. Chef David, though, doesn't want a word in front of people. His story is beautiful. And Don Guerda owns Barrio Bakery. He's a James Beard winning baker. He's our neighbor now in Gilbert, which is a magical alignment. Don won James Beard and can really relate to Chef because Don was like, I didn't want to say much as a brown skinned boy. I was like, yeah, it's the white world. No, it's not. That's not true. America's not that. And so Chef's like coming out of the shell. This is eight years with us. And yes, I love that underdog approach. Is me 100%. Even my photography would fly like that. I like the dying tree that's trying to live. That's what I'm trying to show people. Arizona is exactly that. I believe this state should not be the 5C state. I think that that was our detrimental period. Even though currently we're growing at rates that are. It's based on. We're such a stuck in the 1950s place.

I'm just gonna say it's not something that I believe people can really identify with or care about. And I think that I just your way of. I mean, I've lived in the state almost my entire life. I don't see it through that lens. And just the way you have shared it through your lens today makes me see our state differently and have a little bit of a different appreciation for it.

That's good. There is a field right now of pure flowers. First week of September. White mountains will have pure yellow flowers. And it's just bre in the breeze right now. That's happening right now. The Grand Canyon. The Colorado river is flowing right now as we speak with a condor dropping in over it there. There is the western deserts. There are certain birds living along the Colorado that don't live anywhere in the world. And stands of swarrows are collecting this hot sun and saying, hey, I love this hot sun. I mean, it's all happening. And it's happening in a state that's slowly degrading its natural side because of us being here. So we can't. Again with having to work. We can't just sit in a state of acceptance. We can't sit here and say it's beautiful without saying what is there to do. And wilderness also has that journey. Sorry to change subjects, but it has that journey as well. That's part of our mission, is to understand that. You know, I do start speeches differently than I used to. The sun will expand one day and kill us all, Earth included. Knowing that is very helpful to understand your own journey. This is not. This is ephemeral. This is not. I don't even know if it's real. I know that sounds crazy, but prove it. One million years from now we're ever even here. So while we're here, we will work. And one of the things I think we should work on is loving planet Earth. And it doesn't mean feel guilty for everything you do because you are in a system. You can't get out of that system. I can't. I live in a suburb home here in Gilbert. And I don't know who built it. I don't know where the wood came from. I'd like to go towards knowing how to build a home, but I can't. So how I can. I can help by that moment that you're looking for from either my photography or wilderness. You can now be a part of it by joining in at Arizona Wilderness Brewing Company. Pat and I do not take any profits from the company. Company. We pay ourselves a fair salary. What I'm doing is I'm paying 30 to 60 farmers and purveyors monthly. I'm taking that money and giving it back to a system that I think is better for the state. And that's you partaking in this great state as well. So we're trying to give access to everybody so you don't have to go to every corner of the state. But it's still. What I love is it's still happening. That flower is still blowing right now. And it's just beautiful. Things are happening. You don't need to be there for them to be happening. The tree did fall. Even though you didn't hear it, it's happening. And to live in a state with how much beauty is a blessing.

Yeah. And I can appreciate that. It's not an either or in terms of our approach. It's a yes and right. And I think sometimes we get stuck in. Well, if we can't do something, then let's just not do anything.

Yeah, I think you said it best.

Yeah. That's awesome. Well, this has been awesome.

Sorry to rain.

No, this is. This is exactly what this is all about.

This is great. I've only touched the table twice. It's your audio. Yeah. Derek will get you. I met Derek at Brew at the zoo. Okay. We. We used to go to this festival, and he got to partake in the early days of wilderness when we were just like, what do you want to do today about these problems we've had at business, like we didn't know we were doing every morning?

Yeah.

You remember those days?

Oh, yeah.

It's like, I'm gonna go in and just attack them with vigor. Right. But I'm not going in with vigor. Every day. I'm going in and saying, hey, experts that have hired that are way smarter than me at your thing. What would you do here? Why would we do this? Why would we spend that much money on marketing? It hasn't worked in the past. Yeah. Let me give you space for an answer and not go in and just start ripping things apart. Yeah.

I can say I really appreciate the conversation today. I really appreciate your self awareness and your vulnerability and you're willing to just allow us a peek behind the curtain into what makes you who you are. It's amazing.

I appreciate it, Gilbert. Give has given me a lot. I still live here. We're. We're trying to keep the brewery here. You know, lease negotiations are always fun. I believe we will. But, I mean, in return, I've gotten a lot from this place, and Dan Henderson's a big part of that. The first person I called and I remember him going, wait, wait, where's it at? And now he's like, you know, I just hadn't had a lot of entrepreneurs calling me yet.

That's funny. Dan helped me with this building, too.

He's helped a lot of people.

Dan helps me every week.

Let's not say his name too much. His head might start to, you know.

Yeah. But I have to ask him for things I know his head can, you know, that's awesome.

All right, well, thanks for everybody for listening. This has been a great episode. We appreciate you joining us. If you want these in your inbox, join our tribe. Subscribe and they'll jump right in there when we make them. Thanks for being here. Guiding growth conversations with community leaders.

Ben, let me ask you a question. How do you see other community members being involved in this podcast?

This is going to be a great opportunity for so many people in the community to have a chance to be heard if they want to tell their story or if they just want to be part of this journey with us and help sponsor it in a way that helps bring more people to the table with us. So I think there's many opportunities at hand. Whether you want to again be on the show, reach out to us, let us know what your story is and how you think you could be part of it. We'd love to hear from you. Reach out, let us know, and we'll see if we can make that connection.