Lisa Abelar

Guiding conversations with community leaders.

In this podcast, we'll explore the human journey of leaders, their stories of humility, triumph, roadblocks and lessons learned. Come join us as we journey together and uncover the questions you've always wanted to know. This podcast is brought to you by the Gilbert Chamber of Commerce, providing resources, connections and belonging for business professionals and modern moments.

An event and meeting venue in the heart of Gilbert.

So today I have actually not met this guest before.

This is amazing. It's like the first time ever.

I know, but I am actually fascinated by the story and she comes highly recommended with some accomplishments that I can't wait to have her share. So our guest today grew up in Michigan. She has always had a passion for writing and storytelling which blossomed into a career. First as a staff journalist for Arizona Republic, then a freelance writer and now the owner of her own content strategy company. After leaving an abusive marriage in 2016, she established a nonprofit called for your record to support domestic abuse survivors with court fees. She is now married to the love of her life and together they share five children. Please welcome Lisa Applear.

Welcome.

Hi.

We're glad to have you here.

Thanks for having me.

So we're gonna start with what we call rapid fire. Alright, let's go. You first.

Star wars or Star Trek?

Star Wars.

What's your favorite color?

Like a coral color.

Ooh, okay.

Yeah.

Winter or summer?

Summer.

What did your mom call you as a kid?

Lisa. That's better than mine.

My mom was different. Mom. Favorite holiday?

I would have to say Christmas.

Oh, you had to say Christmas.

Perfect. Best answer.

What is the last book you read?

I'm in the middle of some. I'm reading this one right now by Rick Rubin. That is fascinating. I think it's called the Creative Act. It's so incredible. I highly recommend it. I'm not done with it yet.

Okay.

But yeah.

All right.

Would you ever go on vacation by yourself?

Yes.

Camping or glamping?

Camping.

If you had intro music, what song would it be?

You have to sing it too, by the way.

Oh, my gosh.

You do not have to sing it.

Dang it, Sarah.

He makes up his own rules sometimes.

I'm going to go with I'm a big hip hop fan because I was like raised in the 90s, but I'm gonna go with Wildflowers by Tom Petty.

Okay, but if it were a 90s hip hop song, what would it be?

Oh, my gosh, there's so many to choose from. I mean, my karaoke song is Baby Got Back.

Okay.

I think TLC Waterfalls for me would be in there.

I have some other ideas, but we'll go with yours. Okay, last one. Glass half full or half empty?

Half full.

I would have suspected that. All right, good. This podcast is brought to you by Mercy Gilbert Medical Center. Recognized as one of the top 100 best hospitals by health grades, Mercy Gilbert.

Medical center is a full service, acute care, not for profit community hospital providing exceptional healthcare to the East Valley.

With a staff of 1300 employees and 400 volunteers, patients can expect the expertise of more than 900 physicians representing all major specialties.

Mercy Gilbert Medical center is proud to be part of the local community and an award winning employer.

Learn more@dignityhealth.org Arizona all right, well, thanks again for being here. Let's tie up. Let's dig into the beginnings, shall we? You want to go first?

Yeah. You grew up an only child in Michigan. What did childhood look like for you?

It was cold. More often than not, you know, I'm a latchkey kid, so I was like, right in that era where my parents worked long hours and trusted me on my own. And so there was like a lot of imaginative time where we'd make up games in the driveway with my friends or I'd go over to other friend's house, basically be an extra kid for a while and, you know, prayed for snow days and if not, we were like freezing at the end of the driveway waiting for the bus. And then because I was an only child, my parents were able to take me places, I think easier. I know now as having a lot of kids, that it's easier with one, but you can still make it work. So we visited Arizona a lot. Like, my parents loved Arizona, so that's kind of how we all ended up out here.

Yeah. Okay, so I just have to go back because we're both from Michigan and I spend a lot of summers in Michigan. So talk about some of your favorite things to do summertime Michigan.

Oh, going to Grand Haven, which was about 45 minutes from our house, which is right on Lake Michigan. It's this adorable little lake town. Getting sunburned, like it was like a thing. Right? Like, really? I need to get a good tan today because you never know when the sun's gonna come back out again. So yeah, those are like the. I think just going to the beach and going to the lakes, that was the best part of summer.

I'm more interested not in Michigan, but in storytelling.

Yeah.

So you got into that. That sounds very interesting. And there's probably a ton of influences that got you into that. Talk about that.

So when I was at the Arizona Republic, I was reporting on all these different beats, right? Just kind of like trying to make my way as a reporter. And one of my colleagues very much knew her calling would be in live storytelling. I felt like the written word was much more my jam, because I didn't even want to answer a question in class in school, because I would turn bright red.

Yet you're on a podcast.

I know, but it doesn't feel that way. It doesn't feel weird right now. And so she pulled together this event and was like, you're my friend. I need you. You're telling a story. And so I was like, okay, no one will be there. It doesn't really matter. It's the first one. And when I walked in, it was one of the rare times in my life when my knees went weak. We could feel it because it was packed and everyone was standing. It was in a little pizza joint on Mill Avenue. And I was like, there's no way to back out now. But just had to breathe through it and do it. And it worked, and we all survived. So that was the first. And then her storyteller events took off, and they've been going ever since. And so she keeps inviting me back, and I keep having stories to tell, but I still consider myself a written storyteller more so than a verbal one.

And so did you go to school.

At ASU for a little while? I. This is, like, such a shame point for me, but I went to school for two years in Michigan. Back to back blizzards. Like, we were locked in our dorm. It was awful. And when I moved out here, I was like, it's sunny every single day. I'm going outside. And I was enrolled at asu, but I was like, I'm going outside. I'm going outside. I'm going outside. So I did a year, and I ended up transferring to an. Actually a broadcasting academy because I thought I wanted to be a sports radio chick. And so I never finished my full bachelor's at asu. I just came up a few credits short because I transferred to a vocational school instead.

No shame needed because you're here today, so it's fine.

I know, but it's just that one thing. It's like, oh, it's so close. Because if one of my kids would do that now, I'd be like, get back there and just finish.

Isn't that funny? Yeah.

It's never too late, right?

I know.

Yeah.

Okay.

Okay. So going back to the beginnings of that Though, let's talk about your childhood and how you got into writing. I mean, it sounds like you had a lot of experiences that you're probably reflecting on, but how did writing become a thing for you?

I always considered myself, and I still say this to my kids, like, the dumbest one in the smart class, like, I was with the gifted kids, but those kids went to MIT and they went to Harvard. I'm not even joking. Like, went to Harvard. And they were incredibly intelligent. And I always was, like, mispronouncing a word in the English class. Or, like, none of the English teachers specifically English. Well, math, too. I'd stay after in math, but none of my English teachers ever gave me positive feedback on writing, specifically writing. Because when you're in those honors classes, like, it's a lot of writing. And until one finally did, like, my senior year, she was like, you have a style that is just different and relatable, and I love it and don't stop. And so I've always, like, kind of held onto that, but I didn't know I could make it a career, really.

Do you remember that person's name?

Yeah.

Ms. Aguirre. I tried to look her up to, like, write her a letter, but I couldn't find a way of getting ahold of her. She was wonderful because she made it a possibility. I still didn't know it could be a career. Honestly, I thought I'd just go into prison. I thought I was going to be a PR girl for, like, an NBA team.

You're killing me. Because I was a journalism major and I just went into pr. I just majored in PR and stuff. Yeah.

Like, I mean, how do you really know when you're, like, a teenager what exactly you're going to do with your talents or how those talents will play out? So I think it just really evolved throughout my career to where I am.

Now, or how one person's words will give you the possibilities that you didn't see before.

Yeah. And I think. I don't know if it's just my personality or if it's some creatives in general where you second guess. I know everyone has, like, imposter syndrome to some degree, but when I'll write something and think, like, will anybody think this is, like, funny or poignant or anything. Like, I honestly remember her saying that, like, your style is. You have a style. And so I kind of hang on to that. You never know, like, when those words are gonna pop up throughout your life.

But that's the artist in you. Right. I feel like, most artists feel that way about their art that they put out in the world, and they don't know how it's gonna be received, but it's something to them.

Yeah. I think you just quoted Rick Rubin from the book I'm reading, not even joking. Yeah, I think that's true. And then you can't really help it that you have to do it.

Yeah.

Like, I feel like sometimes ideas or inspiration come and, like, this is happening, and you're just, like, putting it out, or you're just, like, the vehicle for it to be.

That was gonna be. My next question is, where do these stories come from? Is it experience based? Is it just random ideas or how.

What I would say, like, 99% is experience based. I mean, I'd probably say, like, 100%, because it's. All the storytelling is either based on experiences that I had or based on some reflection about some event or some issue tied to an experience I had. Sometimes I give my opinion that, you know, people may not want to hear, but that's okay. And I actually. I went through a period after my divorce where I wanted to challenge myself, to feel okay with how. With my own opinion, no matter what anybody thought. So I was like, I'm gonna write and publish every single day, no matter who reads it. No matter. Maybe no one will see it. Maybe some people will see it. Maybe some people will be angry. It doesn't matter. And at first, like, pushing the publish button was like, oh, my gosh. Oh, my gosh. But then it just got a lot easier and didn't really matter.

Honestly, though, how amazing is that? Could you imagine if everybody forced themselves to be comfortable in their own opinion and really challenge their own opinion, where we might be in a different place if that were true? I love that.

I think, too, it, like, forces you to be like, why do I have this opinion? Like, why do I feel this way? I'm. And then it just starts other conversations and learning opportunities, too. So that was a really cool experiment. Yeah.

We need to get Ben.

Well, a lot of times I think people are just afraid of what others will think about their opinion. Right. But that's not really the point of it. It's really just to get it out there.

Right. Yeah. Or to really understand why. Do you feel this way? Or do you really feel this way? I love that.

Yeah.

That's awesome. Okay, so you came from Michigan to Arizona. Why Arizona?

My parents had a vacation home in Sedona when I was younger, and so they moved there when I left high school. I Joke that they had their bags packed on graduation night and they were like waving goodbye to me, but they really were out. And so I stayed back for a couple years because I'm like, this is everything. This is my best friends. This is everything. You know how it is. And then ended up transferring just because friends lives changed and people were transferring away from school and all that type of stuff. And well, no better time than now. I guess I'll just go start. So I moved to Mesa by myself. Like my parents were in Sedona, but that seemed close enough and got myself like a teeny tiny apartment and just started fresh from there, trying to figure out all the streets and how to get to ASU and all of that. So. Yeah.

And then did you have a job.

Right away waiting tables?

Yeah.

Like in school? Yeah, yeah, waiting tables. And then eventually, while at the broadcasting school, got an internship at this radio station I really wanted to be at. It was a sports radio station. And that turned into a little bit of work. They don't really hire full timers that much. Radio stations. It's mostly part time unless you're like on air all day. Right. So I worked there and there they have a wire service that would come in of the sports news. And I ended up getting a job with the wire service because it's written. And then that's when I was like, oh, this is what I should be doing. So yeah, just turned into that in sports space.

So you got a big passion for sports then.

When I was a kid, I did. I like it now watching my kids, but I don't sit around and watch professional sports anymore. My childhood bedroom, I had, you know, on Home Alone when he like fakes the party and he has that life size Michael Jordan cut out. That was in my bedroom. I had Michael Jordan all over my walls. I had probably the only Patrick Ewing poster that ever existed was in my bedroom. Fab 4 or Fab 5 or whatever they were. So yeah, my room was covered in Sports Illustrated covers. But I kind of grew out of that because I thought I was going to like go work for the NBA. For real? Well, sure, yeah.

Did you play sports too or just loved watching them?

I loved watching them. I was on the team because we had a small enough school where you could make a team. But like, I was the kid, I'm not joking. I was the kid on the basketball team that made a basket and the whole place erupted because it was like.

She finally made a basket like a city chair. Isn't that cool?

No, they were like Honestly, excited for me.

And I'm sure you have a story about that.

I'm sure I've written about it at some point. Yeah.

Okay. Now, the big thing in your journey has a lot to do with this relationship, the marriage. Talk about that. That seems like that's a big twist for you.

Yeah. Talk about reflecting on that. That takes a whole lot of time to reflect, and I think I still am. Like, things come up and I'll be like, why do I respond that way to that? And then go, oh. And then it really starts to still come together. But, yeah, I was married for 15 years. I had three kids. And while I'm in it, it doesn't seem really crazy or really abnormal because it's what you know, it's what I know. And it's very much like the most gradual climb you will ever take. When I got out, you know, I was talking to some advocates, and they're like, well, no one will do that to you on the first date, or you wouldn't come back. Like, oh, yeah, you know, and then I really struggled with. But I'm, like, smart. You know, I'm smart and savvy, and, you know, I'm professional. Like, how. How did I fall into this trap? And it was like, you know, you were kind of like a catch. Like, they. You made the abuser look good because you are, like, successful. Successful and smart. And so, anyway, I'm going in a bunch of different directions, but the very gradual climb over time, I call it like a very slow drip. I've described it. Now, looking back, like, the very first year of our marriage, I noticed stuff that was not the same when we were dating. And there was a comment where it was. I questioned some activity that he was doing, and it was, this is what husbands do. Like, mind your business type of thing. And I was like, oh, I. Okay, I didn't know that. Like, I didn't know this is what husbands did, because they don't. But. But it just kind of sat with me. And there were moments all along the way that it. I allowed, and so they continued. And what I mean by I allowed, I definitely got upset, and I definitely said something about it, but I definitely stayed. And so then it could continue, if that makes sense.

It does.

Yeah. There's only so much I can do without leaving to say that you're not allowing it. So, yes, it unfortunately spiraled downward. I don't know how much you want me to get into it. I can. I feel comfortable talking about it, but very much like, world closing. In isolating from family, making it difficult for me to go out with anybody or have any social life because of the repercussions than when I got home, if that makes sense. Like, I would get home and get yelled at, or it would be some argument or, who were you with? What were you doing? I even had to call, like, wrong numbers back. How many wrong number, wrong number phone calls do you get on your cell phone sometimes? You know, like, who's that? Call me back right now. You know, it's just weird.

Anyway, so maybe talk about how and who helped you get through this with anybody, because that sounds like it'd be an interesting journey, too.

Multiple friends spoke up over the years. I had actually. My best friend's parents cornered me at a funeral once while I was in Michigan, and I was like, this is not the time or the place, and mind your own business. And they were like my second parents. But it just took years and years of people saying, this isn't right, and this isn't right.

And, you know, it takes finding that inner strength somewhere. And sometimes that takes time.

Yeah. And, you know, you've heard over time, like, people, you can take a horse to water or whatever, or you can. You can tell people over and over the same thing, and they won't believe it until it just, like, clicks in their head. And it just didn't click in my head for a very long time.

And it's. It sounds cliche, but it's very true that you have to be sick and tired of being sick and tired, and then you just break and you do what you need to do.

Yeah. Yeah. And right towards the end, it was like just boiling pot of water, you know, I just couldn't. I was like, that was. So that was it for me, you know, that was like that on the day that I was done, I was like, so this is done now.

Like, wow.

So, yeah. But mostly, I would say, mostly friends that just kind of, you know, were, I guess, courageous enough or worried enough to speak up and say, like, I had someone slide the signs of domestic violence to me across the table once on their phone and was like, you need to read these. And I read them. I could check every box, which is terrifying.

It is, yeah.

And you shared with us that once you made that decision and you left, the world opened up for you. What did that look like for you?

I will say, at first it was scary. There were still very scary periods because my choice was not a welcome one, as you can imagine. So once I navigated, I think the legal System. And that really helped too. Build your strength up a little bit. Like, man, I could do that. I can go to a courtroom and say something to a judge in front of him and be okay and walk out and be fine. Like that really like starts to build your muscle a little bit. And then just individually making decisions, individually seeing money in my account for a change, you know, just. I don't know, it just. I think they compound on each other all those decisions and all that growth on your own. And then you get to great perspective though.

It is building a muscle. Right. And sometimes there's a crack in it and you have to work through that and rebuild a little bit.

Yeah. And when I talk to survivors now, I remind them that they are exhibiting tremendous strength just to be where they are. Just to be in the relationship, just to survive the relationship and get through what you're getting through every day takes strength. So. Because I think that a lot of times you think like, man, I was so weak or I was so dumb or I was so whatever. And just to be in it every day and being in fight or flight mode every single day takes a tremendous amount of strength.

So at some point you see the opportunity to serve others and you establish for your record. So this offers financial grants to help domestic abuse survivors cover court related fees. Talk to me about why that was so important to you and how that assistance is so important to the victims.

In no way, shape or form did I get out of a marriage and say, I'm gonna make a nonprofit. Like that was the furthest thing from my mind. It was, I'm gonna get my bills paid and handle this right, make sure the kids are fine. So it really just goes back to like a point of inspiration, I think, based on the experience that I had. Like I tell people throughout my whole process, you know, I had learned like where the bathrooms are in four different courthouses. Like that's. I know where the parking meters are and how much it's going to cost me to be at these different courthouses from downtown to Pinal county, to Maricopa county, to Gilbert. So that's valuable information that I had to kind of find on my own, but could be used, someone else could benefit from. And when a few years had passed after my divorce and was sharing custody and there was another incident not involving me, but involving my ex and his other, I guess the rest of his life. And so there were more charges and I just felt like, I don't know, justice wasn't served, I guess. So I was frustrated and there Was nothing I could do. Like, the case was over, there's nothing I could do about it. So I didn't stew on it. I thought, what could I do with this information or these feelings or how could I channel this better? And just started thinking about my own experience and what I had learned. But then also the costs associated with filing for emergency custody, which I had to do. I was minding my own business, but I had to file for emergency custody to get my kids. And it was like around $400. And then I had to get a process server, which is another 100, 120. And I thought, oh, thank goodness I have that. But I know that that's a lot.

Of money to people and that could be the barrier.

Yeah.

Between staying and going.

Yeah. And I was lucky. I had parents that supported me with my divorce. It was very costly, but you can get divorced on your own. You don't have to have an attorney and you can file your own paperwork. But that in and of itself costs around $300. And if it's an emergency situation, you want to get disconnected from this person. I would hate for someone to feel like they had to stay because they didn't have 300 bucks. So that's kind of how that came to be. And then it was really only a thought in my head, like, this has to be a problem. And then as soon as I started formulating the idea and talking about it, it was like it was just confirmed that this totally is a problem. And then when we launched, it was just people coming and, you know, through victims advocates coming to us saying they can't believe that this type of aid.

Even exists, you say we. So there's other people involved in this with you then?

Yeah, we have a full board of. I think we're 12 in total. Our board just so happen to be all women, but we help everyone. We've helped men. We help people in same sex relationships because that has its own complications if they're not wanting to be out and talk to their family members about stuff like that. So, yeah, I pitched the idea to a handful of friends that have been like big supporters or had some type of connection to domestic violence. And immediately I was like, push send and close one eye. And then they started coming back. I was like, do you even read what I wrote you yet? And they were like, we're in, we're in, we're in, we're in, we're in. And so, yeah, so we formed a board and took six months to kind of plan what our process would look like. And so grateful that I had people around to ask these questions. Stuff that I don't think about. For example, just like you can't just call someone back on your phone, Lis, you've got to protect your number. Or you can't just go meet someone and give them a check because someone might be following them. These are things I don't even think I would have never thought about because I just wanted to help people. So, yeah, and they're everywhere. They're all over in different time zones. And we do everything over because it launched in the pandemic. So we did everything over zoom and everything over email. And it's great.

It's amazing.

Yeah.

Well, congratulations to you on that effort.

Thanks.

I can't wait to see where that goes. But I do want to talk now because this is a very cool story as well. So you are married now and you met your husband while backpacking and it's literally a story made for Hollywood. So I think this is very cool. And they. Well, I'll let you tell the story. You start. How did you meet? What does this look like for you?

So I was about, I think it was like almost nine months separated and was invited to the Havasupai Falls hike down the Grand Canyon, which is kind of like, I don't want to say once in a lifetime because the guide that I went with, who's just a friend and he casually guides friends, he's been 11 times, but he's obsessed with Supai. But for most people, I'd say it's once in a lifetime hike. I had never been backpacking. I hike out and do normal hikes like normal people do in Arizona. But not like that.

To the mailbox.

No, no, no. You know what I mean? Like out in the superstition bucks.

For Sarah.

Yes, it is.

For me, it's a mailbox. Other people, I get it.

So I did all those and he was like, let's go, you should do this. And I don't know, I just was like, this is my chance. I can finally say yes to something. It's only 150 bucks. It's a lot more now, but it was only 150 bucks then. Let's go. My parents had the kids and I just went. And the hike is a 10 mile hike with everything you need for however long you're down there on your back. So the hike down is, I would say, harder than the hike out. Even though the hike out is uphill switchbacks and you're just really tired by Then. But anyway, you hike in and camp and just hike out to these different waterfalls every day. They're just magical, you know, they're this color of blue that I've never seen before. And there was like, a group of six of us, I think. And every day we'd hike to a waterfall, have lunch, swim and splash and take pictures, and then come back and look at the stars at night. And it was just, like, so simple compared to life at home that was so chaotic. When I had left, my window had been broken in my family room. I was dealing with getting that replaced. And so this guy in the group, I had talked to him a couple times just casually. He was like, what are you writing? Because I was always writing down there. And I told him it was just a hot mess in my journal, you know, it was like, I'm trying to figure out my whole life what I told him. And then on the last day, we were jumping off this, like, smaller waterfall that was jumpable. And I couldn't go until I had a few seconds of eye contact with him for whatever reason, like, he was practically a stranger. But I just felt connected to him. And then he just, like, stood in front of me and jumped off backwards. And I was like, whoa. Okay, fine. So then I went. And from that point on, I think we've been inseparable.

Oh, my gosh.

Yeah. There's so much more. You know, like, we just continued adventuring together and building a whole relationship, but, like, he was from Gilbert, I'm from Gilbert, and we met in the bottom of the Grand Canyon. It's just bonkers. We jumped off backwards, and we jumped off a waterfall together.

Yeah. What a start.

Yeah. Like, no pressure for the rest of the relationship.

What would have happened if you hadn't jumped?

I know. That's what I think about. And he wasn't feeling great that morning of the hike that we left, and he almost didn't go. So I always say that I'm like, oh, my gosh. Thank God. He went.

That's funny. I always tell my kids, if your friends jump off a cliff, would you do it too? In this case, the answer is yes.

I know there's a nice splash down at the bottom, but yeah.

Also, you really do sound like a dad.

Yeah, well, that's what you do.

All right, so talk to me. It's said you shared with us that it is literally an Emmy Award winning short film.

Yeah. So the Arizona Office of Tourism found out about it because I told the story as part of a Storytellers event. Because my friend Megan was running it and she knew everything that had been going on with me. And she's like, you have to tell this story. So then the Arizona Office of Tourism was looking for a story that talks about how the Grand Canyon changed someone's life. Like being in it, not from the Overlook. And she was like, Lisa. So, yeah, so we went with a film crew and got to go back down into the Grand Canyon together and hike around in there and be on the river, which we love doing. Anyway, so that was cool. And then it got submitted for an Emmy and it won.

Wow.

Yeah. It is crazy that there's a tiny film about our life.

We're gonna have to link to that one.

You know, I was gonna say that's pretty amazing.

Yeah, that's fantastic. Okay, so what's next then? That sounds like an incredible moment. How do you get better than that? Where does it go?

Well, for four year record, we'd love to be able to expand beyond Arizona. I mean, we definitely counsel people out beyond state lines if they call and they just want to know what's next or how do I manage this or what do I do with my order protection? That can happen anywhere. But from a financial standpoint, we write our grants directly to the court that someone's filing in. So it's not to a person. That's part of our protection measures. And so if we're moving beyond the state, we need to find out different processes and more funding. So that's kind of the next move for us, I think, as a board, propping that up a little bit more, learning how to do some grant writing, because I don't know how to do that, but I think that has trajectory behind it. This is a problem that is everywhere. And it's. I don't know, it's something that can change someone's life. I mean, without that support, they're just kind of stuck. And we're also doing something that nobody else is doing. There's no other support like it out there for court filing. Peace. On a personal note, we're just adventuring as much as we can. School schedules get in the way sometimes. And now the kids are getting older, so they have work schedules, so that even gets in the way. It's kind of a drag. We're like, get a job. And then we're like, get time out.

Yeah.

What are the ages of your kids?

My oldest is 16. And then we're about to have a 15 year old next week. And then we've got 14, 13, 10. Okay, so it's like dominoes.

Yeah.

But. Yeah. And I'm working on a book, so that's cool. I'm through my second edit on that, which is exciting. Yeah.

Okay. I want to share words of wisdom that you shared with us, which seems even heavier now that we know your story. If you don't like something, change it. If you can't change it, change your attitude about it. What does this mean to you?

It means everything. I don't even remember when I heard it first, but when I heard it, I wrote it down in my notebook that I carry with me everywhere, ripped off the page and pinned it up in the kitchen, and it's been there ever since. It's just a crummy piece of paper written in pencil, so I don't know. I point to it. When the kids are upset about something, I point to it and, you know, check that out and see how you can reframe what you're thinking. I think that that reframing part is huge for anybody. Once you figure out how to do it, it's like, where's this been my whole life? You know, it keeps you moving forward rather than, like, being stuck on some bad situation or bad, like, train of thoughts, you know, so. And I think it definitely is how for your record was born because just flipped everything around.

Well, I have to say, you're just. You're an incredible force. I can't wait to see. What is the name of your book? Do you have a title yet? You haven't settled on something Currently.

There is a curse word in it, so. But it deals with being scared blankless and, like, adventuring while being scared. Because I feel like we see these adventurers like Nat Geo and stuff, and they all look tough and confident, and then there's just normal us thinking, I couldn't do those things, but really you can. Cause at some point, they were scared, too.

So you're saying I should venture beyond the mailbox? Yes. Okay.

I won't even take you. Let's go.

All right, let's just get her around the block first. That's a good start.

I'm tired just thinking about it.

This has been awesome. Thank you so much for sharing your journey and the story behind it. It truly has a story and I love that about it. So thank you.

Yeah, sure.

Thanks for having me.

Awesome. Thank you so much.

This has been an awesome one. If you want more of these, join our tribe, subscribe and you will get those in your inbox. We hope to hear from you again. Bye. Guiding growth. Conversations with community leaders.

Ben, let me ask you a question. How do you see other community members being involved in this podcast?

This is going to be a great opportunity for so many people in the community to have a chance to be heard if they want to tell their story or if they just want to be part of this journey with us and help sponsor it in a way that helps bring more people to the table with us. So I think there's many opportunities at hand. Whether you want to again be on the show, reach out to us, let us know what your story is and how you think you could be part of it. We'd love to hear from you. Reach out, let us know, and we'll see if we can make that connection.