Patrick Banger

Guiding conversations with community leaders.

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Ben, we're back.

We are back. And we have a pretty intelligent gentleman with us today.

Well, debatable, but here we go. Okay, this next guest was born in Iowa, but with a dad in the Navy who moved every three years and spent his childhood in suburban cities outside of San Francisco, New Orleans, Washington, D.C. and St. Louis. He has a love for cooking, ancient history, and unfortunately, the Las Vegas Raiders. Professionally, he has developed two great American cities to prosperity in his roles as city administrator for o', Fallon, Missouri, and his current role as town manager for the town of Gilbert, where he has served for nearly 12 years. Under his leadership, Gilbert has transformed into one of the most sought after places for residential living and corporate expansions and relocations. But what he's most proud of is close to his heart, his wife Belinda, and his three daughters and their families. Please welcome Patrick Banger.

Hey.

Hey.

Welcome, Patrick.

Thank you, Ben.

Yes. And the person sitting next to you, formerly known as. Yes, that one. We're glad you're here. So we're gonna start off what we call rapid firearound. Okay, Sarah, you go first.

Would you rather find your dream job or win the lottery?

Win the lottery. Was that too quick? Did I answer?

No. No, that's appropriate. What's your guilty pleasure?

Any kind of food that is bad for you. Twinkies. Any kind of sugar based candy. You name it, that's it. Okay.

All right.

Would you rather host a party for all your friends or enjoy a dinner for two?

Is there a third option? Host a party for myself. There you go. Dinner for two.

Dinner for two.

One.

What's on your nightstand?

Less than normally. We are in the process of moving and still unboxing. So there's a charger for my phone.

Important.

And a. A journal for any notes.

Okay, a journal.

A journal. You know, things come to you in the middle of the night.

Not one of those digital fancy pads.

Just a journal. No, I can't afford fancy pads.

Those are for CEOs and stuff.

Last TV show you binged.

Oh, Ted Lasso.

Mm, I love that one.

Fill in the blank.

Success is happiness.

What song makes you smile?

Free Bird.

Are you more cautious or bold.

Bold.

What's your favorite rainy day activity?

Lots of rainy days here.

Yeah. Yeah. So many to choose from. Probably reading a book.

Reading a book. Last question. What is one thing you are grateful for?

My parents procreating. Is that an acceptable answer?

That's an acceptable answer, yeah. You would not be here today without that activity.

Okay. A serious answer. You know, the career half. I think city management's one of the most rewarding things I've done with my professional life.

That's awesome.

I would actually say I'm grateful that you are in the position that you're in. I love having you in this position as town manager and we have been so blessed to have you at the helm of our community.

She wrote that all down. So she had rehearsed that.

She looked pained while she was saying.

She's also looking at what is.

Slide me my 20 bucks.

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Oh, I'm so excited to talk to you today.

Yeah, me too. It's been a while actually since I've got to connect with you, so it's good to connect with you here and I'm interested to hear your story and the journeys you've had. So let's start there. Let's go back to the beginning days a little bit before that procreation you mentioned. Maybe after that. And what was life like for you back there? And it was Iowa, right?

Yeah, Iowa. So my mom's parents were farmers and she was raised on a farm in the northwest part of the state. And Lorville, there's a hundred small towns in Iowa. And then my father was in Des Moines and his parents, his father was a postmaster and his. His grandfather, my great grandfather founded the city of Laporte City, Iowa when he immigrated from England in 1852. So it was a great. Iowa was a great state, great people. It was a great place to be raised with great influence by really good, solid, salt of the earth people.

That's awesome. Siblings?

Yeah, Brother and two sisters. Okay. Yep. I am the third of four.

Okay. So when you think of like, high school days. That was Iowa, right?

No. So my dad joined the Navy when I was five, and from there it was San Francisco, then New Orleans, then D.C. and then high school was in St. Louis. St. Louis, yeah.

Okay.

Okay. So your dad joined the Navy after he had a family?

Yes.

Do you know what his motivation was for that or what his calling was?

You know, so our great uncle was a vice admiral in the Navy in World War II. And I don't know if that had any influence on it or not, but I think he just had a calling. And he did 30 years, retired as a master chief, which is the highest rate you can achieve enlisted. And quite honestly, I think he would have stayed in his whole life. It was really hard for him, the transition, getting out.

Okay, so that causes you then to move around different every three years.

Yeah.

What is that like as a. As a child growing up?

It's hard. You know, there was no social media, there was no phones. I mean, when you moved, you literally never saw your friends or any of those connections ever again. And it was every three years, new schools, new friends, new neighborhoods. And so it was difficult as a child, but as an adult, it's also been very enriching because different parts of the country really are truly different from one another. The cultures, the customs, the ethnic diversity that you see and the cultural differences in food. It's really been enriching for me as an adult.

Was there a location that spoke to you more than others?

Probably Louisiana, surprisingly enough. And I love seafood, and it's just everywhere. Shrimp vendors, crab vendors during the seasons, or everywhere on the side of the road. And so food was just wonderful. And for the age I was at, around 12, I believe we lived just north of Lake Pontchartrain. And there was, like, wildlife was. Was everywhere. So for a small boy and our friends, we would just get lost in the woods all day and you'd see it all, from snakes to possums to crabs. You name it. Yeah, it was a great state. Yeah.

So then you ended in Missouri. St. Louis. So that was really where high school was. And you guys stayed there for a lot longer then, or was that also a three year stint longer?

My dad. So we were in St. Louis. My dad got transferred. He was command master chief of Great Lakes Naval Reserve center in Chicago. And so they really liked the house in St. Louis and decided he would just work up there and he'd come home on the weekends or we'd go up there. And so he was in St. Louis, I want to say, just a little over five years. And then when I graduated from high school, he got transferred back out to the Pentagon and moved after my freshman year in college.

Awesome.

Okay, so after high school, interesting. So you go to Missouri State and you have a degree in political science and public law and you had a real interest in law school.

I did, yeah.

Tell us a little bit about that.

So, yeah, I. It's interesting that, you know, the journey we all go on and where we end up in our professional careers. And so I always loved the law and how it. It. The impact, how it shaped society, its impact on society and on people. And so I was an intern my senior year in college at the U.S. attorney's office with an amazing experience. Really, really talented, dedicated people and really enjoyed it and graduated. And I didn't want to go right into law school and then graduate from law school $100,000 in debt or more. And so I was just looking for a job and I got hired by a city to run their municipal court system for them, which I thought, this is great. It's a job. I can save money and kind of still connected to the profession. And that's when I realized that that wasn't my calling. And I really got kind of bitten by the city management bug and public service in that space.

What does that look like, to be bitten by the city management bug?

Well, it may more be more like infected than bitten. You know, it's interesting, Sara, because I'd never thought about it up to that point. I really hadn't. And you know, it was a city very similar to Gilbert, only earlier in its stage of development. And so that was actually a blessing because we had such explosive growth and so little resource to deal with it that, you know, you just volunteered for anything and everything, even if you didn't have that much depth of experience in it. And it an opportunity to really learn just a lot about city government, city operations. We're in a more larger, more stabilized, mature city where things are more siloed and specialized. Probably wouldn't got have gotten that chance. And so it was a great opportunity. Just harder the work you work, the more you were available for promotions and worked my way all the way up to the city manager, city administrator.

No. And looking back on that, were there individuals that were influential during that time?

Yeah, most definitely. So we had a really great mayor at that time. And when the person who was the current administrator moved on, he had approached me about an interest in that, and certainly I did have an interest, but I was only 29 years old. the time. And I look back at that and think, you guys were crazy to make me city administrator at 29 years old. And I was also the youngest city administrator in the St. Louis region. And. But, you know, he saw something in me. Like, you know, good mentors, coaches do, they see potential and. And he was. He didn't do me, pull me, take it easy on me at all. In fact, sometimes, like, what are you doing? Are you, like, trying to break me? He was very demanding, expected a lot, but there were times when we didn't hit the mark on something or we weren't successful for something. You think, oh, here it comes. And he was actually, you know, the first one to say, you know what, Dust that off and, and just keep pushing forward. And I think he was a great influence on my early career to just try hard, push hard, accept that sometimes things aren't going to work out, but keep pushing forward and don't accept that the status quo and the way things are, the way things should be going forward. So challenge assumptions and how we're doing things.

So when you look back on those days, what do you think? I would assume that many of our youth today probably don't identify with an opportunity in city management. What do you think would be the biggest surprise for them to understand the opportunity and maybe the careers that are available?

You're absolutely correct, Sarah. And actually, even in American universities, the MPA programs, masters in Public administration, are really struggling nationally. And I, time to time, help out my old alma mater, Missouri State, with theirs. But, you know, and I don't like to generalize and broad brush, you know, generations or groups or classes of people, because we're all individuals. But one thing I do see with this next generation that's coming is they really are very passionate about the world we live in, about humankind, about our environment, that these are people that want to put their talents and their lives into making things better. And it's something that, I know, I didn't realize about public service at the time, but if you've ever been involved in any type of charitable activity to where, you know, whether through a volunteer, through service on a board, you know, that is about aligning with something that you care deeply and making a difference in people's lives. And it's just so enriching that you're not doing it for yourself, you're not doing it for money, you're doing it to help somebody or help people. And city management and public service is a lot like that, actually. You know, if we do our jobs Right. We make people's lives better. We keep the community safe. We provide for parks and recreation opportunities, employment opportunities. It's like having your job and your career, as well as charitable work, all in. In the same space, and it's really enriching. And at one point in my career, I got recruited into the private sector and spent about seven years in the private sector. And I was younger, and I was thinking about my. And college tuition that would be coming up one day for the girls. And I learned a lot being on the other side of the table from cities with development projects and construction projects, and realized that sometimes, even when we're trying to help cities that were actually making things more difficult for people. And so it was a really enriching experience. But the reason I got back into city management is I just did not feel. Feel a passion for what I was doing. I felt like I was working for a paycheck. Not that they were great companies doing great things, but I needed more for myself. And that's when I decided to get back into city management. Went to Gilbert. So what I would tell young people is, you know, we hire everything from chemists to engineers to emergency medical technicians. I mean, just about any career that's out there, we probably employ. And if you really want to make a difference in people's lives, you. You really should look at city government. It really is a space where you can do that.

Yeah.

So I'm going to rewind because I love where we're headed. But I wanted to ask one question that we kind of got away from, which is your parents. So the desire you had for going into law school. So before you made that shift, where do you think that came from? Like, was that something that you maybe got from one of your parents or who influenced you in that way? Because everybody's got some kind of motivation there.

Right. So my grandfather and his brother were both attorneys, and my grandfather practiced law for a little while. He was the younger brother and practiced law for a little while with his older brother, I think, didn't have a passion for it. So that's when he went to the postal service and spent his entire career in the postal service. And at the very end, he was Postmaster General in Des Moines, Iowa. But it was interesting in college when you're starting out. I didn't start out as a political science, public law major. I just kind of went into general studies. And you take a lot of your elective courses and get exposed to a lot of different things. When I took a political science class, it really Kind of connected with me. Started sparking. Law. Yeah, started sparking. And that's when I really started thinking about going into that space.

Okay. Makes more sense. Okay, cool. So now you're heading into the Gilbert area because that's where you came from, the St. Louis side. So how did that come about? What touched and inspired there?

I'm actually curious even, like what inspired you to apply?

Yeah. So I was looking. I had decided that, you know, one thing, moving every three years as a child, you really get accustomed to change and comfortable with change that it's not as big and scary to me as it may have been had I not moved every three years. But I say, you know what, I want to see different parts of the country. And so started evaluating opportunities nationally. And I was by that point coming from Iowa and St. Louis winners that had also decided, if I never see another flake of snow, that will be fine too. If I want to see it, I'll go travel to see it and then come back and not have to shovel my driveway every other day. And so primarily Texas and Arizona were states I was looking at. And I was actually a finalist in Corpus Christi, Texas, right before Gilbert, and did not. Was not successful in that process. And, you know, interviewing is a two way street too. And I also didn't see myself in Corpus Christi, you know, as a community, which is really important. And I always take Belinda with me on when we go on those, those trips for those interviews and kind of decide this is where we want to raise our kids and live in this community and be a part of this community. And so I had originally put in for Chandler. Chandler and Gilbert were looking for managers at the same time. And at the time there was some stuff going on in Gilbert that was making some headlines in the news. And I wasn't quite certain about the stability, quite honestly. And if you're going to move halfway across the country with your family, you want to kind of know you're coming into a good space.

That's with those Sarah Watts headlines you're talking about.

Yeah, yeah. Honestly, I mean, Sarah early on was a huge hurdle I had to get over.

I remember this.

Yeah.

And still she's. She's a nightmare.

So grateful for you too.

And so I applied for Chandler and it was the same recruiter for both. And when I was talking to him, Stewart, he said, you know, I think you're a better fit for Gilbert than Chandler, because Gilbert says has quite a bit of growth and development to go. And o' Fallon was. I led it through the Largest period of sustained growth in the history of the city. But he said, I'm going to shortlist you for Chandler, and if this isn't successful, you should consider Gilbert, because their posting doesn't close until the day after Chandler will make a decision. So I interviewed for Chandler, and it went to Rich Dlugas, who. Really good guy. We became really good friends. And the day after, I got a call from Mayor Tip Shrining, who was the mayor at the time, and he just wanted to tell me what a good job I did and that I was the their number two consensus, you know, pick. They knew Rich and just felt like he was going to be a good fit for them. And. And that happens with internal candidates sometimes. And. But he said, you know, Gilbert's looking for a manager. And I said, like, really? Yeah, really. You know, I put him on the spot. If I could ask you, you know, an honest question, you know, what do you think? Because I was just a little concerned about some of the stuff that was going on. Sarah Watts. Yeah, Sarah Watts. I mean, and still it continues, but you manage your way through it. And I asked him his opinion. He said, you know what? It's a great community, a phenomenal community that John Lewis was the mayor back then. He said, they've got a great mayor. He said, this is just, I think, a little bit of an aberration and it'll settle down. He said, if I were you, I would strongly consider that. And so then I asked him if I could call Rich and just ask him, you know, professional, professional, you know, just shoot me straight. Rich and Rich told a very similar story. Think it's great community. It's just a little bit of turmoil right now, and it'll settle down. And so that's what I put in for it. That's the thing in life. Things happen for a reason and work out for a reason. And I can't imagine having not gone to Gilbert over Chandler because it's just been a wonderful experience for me, short of dealing with Sarah Watts.

Well, and I was there in those first days, and I wondered, who the heck is this guy? But I'm curious, you know, looking back now 12 years, which seems like almost unbelievable to me that it's been that long, what do you think are some of the biggest lessons learned and some of the greatest opportunities that you faced in those 12 years?

You know, similar to other cities. So many similarities to o' Fallon and challenges American cities face when they're hit with growth every year, the growth and the impact of the community, the Revenues come after that. So every year we're trying to figure out how to do more with less because the residents are here, the businesses are open, but the tax revenue that comes will trickle in over the months and years to come. And so that's always a struggle. Staying ahead of infrastructure as well is always a struggle, whether it be roads, water lines, sewer lines. And you have to manage that impact, either the impact to new development and making sure growth pays for growth, but managing what that cost is, because that gets passed along homeowners as well as the maintenance on the lines and the upkeep on the lines for the existing homeowners. So infrastructure and planning in the short term. But something, Sarah, that I think is one of the most important things that we need to keep an eye on, that we're working on is, you know, the impacts of the decisions we make today and how those reverberate into the future, you know, a decade from now, two decades from now. And we've spent a lot of time, we called it our City of the Future initiative and a lot of time talking about the quality of life we enjoy today, which I think everybody would agree is just phenomenal. I mean, we have some challenges here and there, but when it comes to safety, schools, parks, traffic systems, we have a beautiful community. So how do we ensure that the next generation of Gilbert resident has the same quality of life we do? Because American cities do not have a great track record with that, especially suburban communities that all trace their growth back to post World War II expansion When Eisenhower kicked off the interstate system, the industrialization effort to win the war, and factories that were turning out armaments are not turning out cars and refrigerators and gas was cheap because we built a ton of refineries for the war effort. And so it was now possible for people to work downtown in the urban core, but actually live outside of it. And so we took farm towns like Gilbert and Chandler and Mesa and Tempe and turned them into suburban communities and just started throwing up neighborhoods and schools and churches and not truly understanding, you know, everything that we needed to by way of urban planning and development and long term maintenance. And there's things that happen to cities as they mature, as they reach build out and demographics change, aging infrastructure. But a lot of things start to change and then they start heading in a different direction and the investment stops and they start getting into periods and states of distress that are really difficult to turn around once that starts. So we're doing our best to try to understand what it is we need to do. Today, by way of maintenance of infrastructure, by way of maintaining a safe community, being a good partner to our schools. You know, how do, how do we work with you to continue to deliver exceptional educational experiences for families? All those things that create demand for what you have to offer. Just like in the private sector, if you have products and services that people want, you have a better chance than not of staying in business and being successful as long as you manage other aspects of your business well, you know, supply chains, cost. It's no different than cities. People are. Part of our success has been people. We've created demand for what Gilbert has to offer. And so that's what's driving, you know, the fuel for, for buying houses or moving businesses here. And if we can keep that demand, that will at least give us a better shot than not to continue investment, continue that next generation of resident that's going to fuel that workforce, that allows Deloitte, Northrop, Grumman and all these other companies to be successful here.

I think what's so important is that this last decade and this next decade, they really are the critical years of our community as we reach build out. And I honestly, you are such an incredible leader to have at the helm and I just, I really hope that our community understands just how fortunate we are. You are considered to be one of the best in the country. And you've also assembled an amazing team around you of staff who continue to lead us in the right direction and ask the hard questions. And I guess I'm just saying I'm grateful for you and your leadership.

I know she's squeezing the chair while she's.

By the way, I know you weren't feeling well, Sarah, or you weren't in a fever.

I'm just, I'm doing just fine. No, I know it was Gilbert leadership that really helped you with that class 21, the class of the century.

That's true.

Just a quick shout out. But I also want to spin the table for just a second because it wasn't just you that came to Gilbert. You have a dynamic family that also followed you. And your wife is an amazing force in our community too.

She is a force for making me a better person. It's. It's her mission in life. And I keep thinking she's gonna give up. I'm like, this is the year she just gives up.

And you keep giving her a glimmer of hope.

I'm sure I don't actually do my best to like, not lead her on.

Expectations are low.

I'm not changing. And, and but, you know, she's. She's committed to it, and I appreciate that. But, yeah, wonderful family. Belinda is a very, very talented professional in her own right and gets heavily involved in things around Gilbert and around the region, and very blessed to have her. And Sydney, our youngest, is now off to college up at Lewis and Clark in. In Oregon and loving it, wants to be an attorney, so we'll see if she continues down that path. And then Erin is, as you know, lives here in Gilbert as well with her son Ashton, and. And doing very well and thriving.

So I'm certain they're a strong support system for you. Are there other individuals that today you lean on for advice or growth or just an opportunity to learn?

Oh, absolutely. I don't want to name names and then forget some people that are so critically important, but I can't tell you the elected leaders I've had to gotten the opportunity to work with over the last decade. Leaders in organizations like the Chamber and any number of our athletic leagues around town. We have people in Gilbert. One thing that I think is different about our community, we have people that are actually really actively involved in this community, whether it be churches, whether it be, you know, organizations like chambers of commerce or East Valley Partnership. Everybody truly loves this town and does everything they can to preserve and grow what we have. The staff, you mentioned it, Sarah. I think it's the finest group of people I've worked with in my career. They really are very talented, dedicated people that honestly deserve them and everybody underneath them deserve the credit. They're the ones out there every single day in their respective areas, just doing phenomenal things. And I'm inspired by all of them, truly. And, you know, it is at times intimidating because you feel this pressure, like, I don't want to let these people down. They are all amazing. And so I better do everything you can to step up my game, to keep my skills sharp, because they deserve that and they need that, and it can be intimidating as a leader.

I love that.

Yeah, there's a lot there. Curious also how you keep it all straight, but I'm sure that's a topic for another day. So let's go to the future. Now, maybe so much about the town's future, but your future. So, you know, you mentioned a couple times how you moved a lot every three years, and you've been here for 12 years. That seems like a long time for you, right?

Yeah, it's the longest I've ever lived anywhere, and it's the longest I've ever been at one organization.

Do you get restless.

I do, actually. You know, and I think, honestly, I think, why would I be restless? You know, Gilbert is an amazing community. It's an amazing job. And I don't know if it's just, you know, it's wired India subconsciously from moving every three years as a. As a child. I'm also very competitive. You know, I think we've probably all done strengths finders, JW strengths finders. And competitive is number one and futuristics number two. And so I like to be challenged and I like to be in a place where we can be thinking about the future and driving towards the future. I just hate status quo. Life is different every single day we wake up. And so sometimes that makes me want to take on bigger things, more challenging things. And above all else, it's about public service and the opportunity to serve people. But it's also about. I want to see how far my skills can take me as well.

Yeah. So do you see anything when you look over that fence in the future? Is there anything that you gonna go.

On Jeopardy for your history?

Is Jeopardy still going?

I think so.

No idea.

I don't know. You know, I'm 54 and I was thinking I'm working.

54?

Yeah, 54. I'm aging gracefully. Right. Thankfully, this is a podcast, not a video.

We'll save the photos for later.

Yep, exactly. Just make sure Elaine touches those up.

Got it.

You know, I was thinking, you know, Belinda is a couple years younger than me and so probably, you know, 10 years work 10 more years and make sure. We've always planned for our retirement, but make sure that's set. I can't see myself ever not doing anything. I used to teach a course in economics in the graduate school back in St. Louis and really enjoyed that. And then I just got too busy with state management. But I was so thought about picking that back up and teach a course down at ASU or one of our universities. But for me, you know, Gilbert, we're in the last decade of Beck build out and it's a. It's a critical decade for sure. It's absolutely still a challenging job and a very rewarding job as well, but I'm not. We'll see what the future holds. I do sometimes get restless. Yes.

Do you suspect traveling will be in your retirement plan or do you think you're going to be more of a homebody now?

You know, travels in my plans right now, but between my work and my wife's work, we don't travel nearly as much as I'd like to. Yeah, I love ancient cultures and civilization. So I would love to just travel all over the world and not just see monuments and structures that, you know, literally are awe inspiring for when they were built, but just, you know, all the culture and history behind that and things that, you know, were rooted in those civilizations that are still part of our lives and culture today. I find all that fascinating.

So on that front, I need to ask a really important question. It might be too heavy for you to answer.

Why are the Las Vegas Raiders the most amazing football team?

Correct. I need to understand your.

I want to know more too. That'd be interesting to understand.

Where does that come from?

There's a story behind it. Would you like to hear it?

Okay.

So, you know, every time someone asks you you're a Raiders fan, it's like, yes. And like, were you in prison? It's like, no. So when I was five, we were visiting my grandparents or maybe, maybe six young. We just moved. We were back over the summer to visit my grandparents on my dad's side. My grandmother was sitting on the couch and I walked by the living room and she's watching a football game, cheering. And so I sat down next to her. She was cheering for the Raiders, the Oakland Raiders back then. And so I sat there with her and we cheered for the Oakland Raiders the whole game. And then I never saw her watch another football game as long as she was alive. But it just. I became a Raiders fan at that moment in time. Yeah, I know, it's a boring story.

And you're not concerned with their indecisiveness as of a location?

Yeah, you know, they are making the most of opportunities. You know, it feels weird to the Oakland Raiders, but you know, that's. Teams are mobile nowadays and football is big in my family. My dad's a Packers fan and there's no normal packers fans. Like, they're all obnoxious. They are extreme. My mom bought my dad a share of stock in him one year for his birthday and he will tell people that he owns the Packers. Like, dad, you need to stop doing that. You're going to get locked up. They're going to put you in a padded room. And my brother and sister are saying.

You'Re the one in a padded room right now.

I need to be on most days. And my little sister is a Bears fan. So there's a lot of smack talk that goes around on Sundays. And so I always tell him, I was like, hey, even if my team doesn't beat your team on the field, we will beat you up in the parking lot. So one way or another, the Raiders are going to beat you up.

Well, that's actually appropriate story for this podcast because it is one of those guiding growth moments. Your grandmother influenced you to be a Raider hater. I mean, fan.

Have you gone to their new stadium?

I have not. It's. It's on the list on the last looks. Amazing. You know, Sarah, even if the stadium was across the street, I probably wouldn't have made it.

We were. That's fair. We'd have to put it on your calendar a few months ago.

There would have to be a work event there, and then I'd go to.

It to make that happen, I'm sure. Awesome. Well, this has been a great conversation, Patrick. Thanks for joining us. Thanks for sharing with us your journey. I think this has been exciting, huh?

Yeah. I absolutely love my time with you. Whenever I have that opportunity to learn from you and get guidance from you. You're a true mentor and I appreciate that of you. Even though you're hard on me, I do appreciate you so much.

Likewise, Sarah.

Gotta keep beating on that one. That's good. All right, well, if you enjoyed the show, which I know you do, please join our tribes and join to get more information about when we launch other podcasts. Thanks for being with us today and have a great one. Guiding growth conversations with community leaders.

Ben, let me ask you a question. How do you see other community members being involved in this podcast?

This is going to be a great opportunity for so many people in the community to have a chance to. To be heard if they want to tell their story or if they just want to be part of this journey with us and help sponsor in a way that helps bring more people to the table with us. So I think there's many opportunities at hand. Whether you want to again be on the show. Reach out to us. Let us know what your story is and how you think you could be part of it. We'd love to hear from you. Reach out, let us know and we'll see if we can make that connection.

Sam.